Dennis Rox: Confessional Self-Improvement & Psychology
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Dennis Rox: Confessional Self-Improvement & Psychology
106. Virtue
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Are you trying to practice justice without first mastering humility?
This week, the "Dennis Rox" team explores the foundation of Soulmaxxing. Mike and Toliy discuss whether there is a specific sequence to Personal Transformation—asking if some virtues are "Level 1" while others are for the "advanced" practitioner. We dive into the Entrepreneurial Psychology of growth, revealing why an acknowledgement of ignorance is the mandatory prerequisite for any real learning to occur.
The conversation exposes the ego as a "magician" that pulls tricks on our perception, creating illusions of progress to keep us from reaching the truth. We deconstruct the Mindmaxxing tools needed to combat these illusions: reasoning, logic, and a relentless sense of curiosity. This episode is a deep dive into Truthmaxxing the very core of your character, moving from a state of being "at the mercy of someone else" to the Radical Accountability of practicing virtue.
Key Takeaways:
- The Virtue Sequence: Why certain foundational virtues, like humility and honesty, must be practiced before you can understand complex concepts like justice.
- Ignorance as a Gatekeeper: Why you must first acknowledge what you don't know before humility can even enter the room.
- The Ego's Magic Show: How our minds create illusions to prevent us from seeing the reality of our situations.
- The Pain Equation: Calculating whether the pain of change is finally greater than the pain of staying the same.
Insightful Moment:
"Humility is not required without ignorance. You probably have to have an acknowledgement in the moment of ignorance to then have humility, to then learn." — Toliy
Are you ready to stop being fooled by the magician? The crew challenges you to arm yourself with the tools of Awarenessmaxxing. If your current habits are causing you suffering, are you humble enough to admit that your current "logic" has failed you?
Listen now to find out if you're building a foundation of virtue or just living in an illusion.
Feel stuck and can't actualize? We'd love to hear your story - form - https://forms.gle/joegCWQ7mHt7eN3K9
Virtue Sequence and Difficulty Exploration
ToliyOn this week's episode you probably have to have an acknowledgement in the moment of ignorance, to then have humility, to then to learn, because humility is not required without ignorance. There you go, you know I agree with this 100%. Need to be at the mercy of someone else's time and pace.
EldarI think that's a logistical almost a logical answer to how to get into the moment. Is the pain to do something about it greater or less than the pain of not doing something about it that you've been doing for a while?
MikeYeah, that's interesting. Yeah, sure. So the topic is is there a guess? Maybe sequence of events or sequence that needs to be followed Should be followed in order to like where do you start? As far as like virtues is concerned, is there like a?
Eldarone that's Virtues. Oh, you said virtues, Virtues yeah, yeah.
Mikeis there like before you practice, for example, you know, or you try to understand, you know, an application of justice? Is there something that needs to be kind of understood and practiced beforehand? So is there like higher level versus lower level? Is there like a baseline of certain things you need as like a foundation, virtues, yeah, of virtues. And then there's like level two, advanced, for example. Is there such a thing? And if there is, I mean I don't know the answer, but how does that look in?
EldarYeah, that's the question. What made you think of the question?
MikeI would actually have to think about it because I had a lot of events that happened throughout the week. I can't recall. I like it. What made you think about it?
EldarYeah, like why is that an important question to ask for you?
MikeFor me. You like these Tully.
ToliyI like this? Yeah, because once he was asking the question, many thoughts went into my head and I think I'm understanding a little bit. Okay, good, look at that. I got a notification from UberEats. Enjoy reliable deliveries for fruit, veggies and more in just a few taps.
MikeVery nice you think they send us in a particular time, then we were thinking about it.
MikeYeah, perfect, damn my credit. So the reason I asked this, this happened a long time ago. I've been thinking about this for a long time, but it's probably some interactions that I have with people and I see there may be proficient in one thing and I look at like yo damn, they're proficient in that, but they're not proficient in things that I would consider basic. But that's probably my misinterpretation of what basic is. That's why I raised that question, like am I wrong here To say hey, there's some baseline things and then there's some advanced things?
EldarYeah, okay, so give us an example of what you think is baseline and then obviously advanced, like you said, like justice, maybe practice, injustice, more so advanced maybe. Yeah Right, what would be an example of?
MikeProbably respect for yourself, respect for others, consideration again of others Are those things that come easier for you. I'm not sure I have to think about that.
EldarLike, and that's why maybe you call them baseline- Maybe it's possible.
MikeYeah, like I said, I don't really know, but this is something I've been thinking about. That's why I consider them the baseline, but maybe in my head I think they're easier to execute versus something that's much more advanced, where it's maybe much more complicated. The situation maybe more complicated, but the application might be subjective.
EldarYeah, it might be Because to someone maybe applying justice is easier comes easier than maybe self-respect.
MikeIt's possible. Yeah, I just don't know, like how would that look?
EldarSo there were a couple of leaders I think I'm thinking maybe of one of them I'm okay, right who's talked and preached a lot about fairness, justice, equality, right, but maybe lack a certain level of respect, and obviously everybody knows the story. Why that is Because he clearly they said that he had mistresses. I think this is true, a true fact.
EldarLet's just go off of that. So someone who's talking about, let's just say, higher levels of understandings, right or truths Mine necessarily is not practicing the same thing when it comes to his own personal life. Right. So what does that say?
MikeI mean maybe then, like you said, the other things are easier for that person to execute versus the other ones. Some of the other ones, right, right.
EldarSo I'm saying my question will probably be then. I think it's a very good, important question. But well then, if we have these examples, is it subjective, the order of events based on the people that we are and within that spectrum of the moment?
MikeYeah, that's the question, like, do you need to? Is there a certain way to go about it? If you'd like to reach, I guess, why would this be important? Well, I think for quality of life right To ultimately live a happy life, you obviously would like to know if there's a proper way to execute things right.
EldarYou want to know the basics.
MikeWell, you hope possibly the basics, but also I think, part of the basics also sequence of events. Like, is it important before you walk I mean before you run to walk, or before that to crawl, yeah, or does that not apply in this world? That's the question, because, as I'm working on myself and trying to figure out how to navigate these things, that question came about because I'm like, hey, maybe I'm trying to think of two things that are like, hey, I'm not ready to face those yet. They're good theories, but maybe I should just focus on the basic stuff which I consider basic but that might not be, is respect or consideration or compassion or, like you know, seeing things what they are.
MikeMaybe they sound a little bit easier. They're probably not easier, I think, maybe I don't know. I guess the question is all values equal or equally?
EldarThat's a very good question. All values created equal. Yeah, that's a good one, yeah. All values come the same way to each person. All people is just in general.
MikeBut to tie it into what we spoke about the last few weeks I mentioned, I think every single virtue is connected to every other virtue, so I'm not sure how that also ties into it, but that's also a theory that I have, that you can't be one versus the other. Yeah, I don't think there is any, in a way, like I feel like there's no separation, because how can you practice honesty without practicing the patience, like that's also a different virtue? How can you practice honesty with respect or without compassion?
ToliyRight. Well, why can't you practice honesty without patience?
MikeWell, I think, if you were to put out a certain scenario, that you need to be honest, being patient may be the right thing as well. There's patience within that act of the honesty.
ToliyBut how would? Being impatient and being honest?
MikeWell, I don't know. Again, this is just a theory, but I think that every single virtue has a piece of every other virtue within it Are you saying that some of it doesn't translate.
EldarIt does translate. It would have to be an example, some examples we can bring up. Probably, like totally probably, is challenging at that point.
MikeI mean, I'm not probably not every single example. It would apply to, yeah, or maybe it would, I'm not sure, but I think I would have to think of an example, I don't know one, I wasn't thinking about that, but I think it does have a part of every virtue within it. We can talk about that if you guys, like I mean I, definitely open to discuss that theory. It's just a hunch I have. If we can figure out a scenario, we can try to dissect it and see if those things are within it as well.
EldarSo what are you thinking?
ToliyWell, I mean, I guess it's actually the first point that Mike was making around what's easy and hard. I think all the things that he brought is more basics or simple. I think those are incredibly hard things Because when I view it like, practicing it, I know for a fact that the best and the most like let's say, if you want to call them evil or bad or ignorant, people still practice all those you know, I think all those values, just at a very low, low amount, right, the meanest person could still be compassionate. The meanest person could still be respectful. You may not be respectful majority of the time, but there are times where he's still respectful or understanding or stuff like that.
ToliySo everybody tunes into glimpses of this, but to me, any of those things for you to, if you're someone that could like embody those things, let's just say 95% plus times or 99% like for someone who doesn't do that, to me that's a very, very advanced step to be able to do that Like. That's extremely difficult. For example, self respect. For you to be self respectful, let's just say, in all scenarios, 95 or 99% of the time. That to me sounds extremely challenging right Now to do it. You know, 5% of the time, or 1% of the time. I mean still not easy, but more doable. Or if you're more advanced, go 20 or 30 or 40. So that's my opinion on that. Like I don't view any of those things as like basic or stuff like that, I think they're all extremely, very like, extremely hard. So why do?
Eldaryou find that big disparity? If you totally find that those things that you mentioned are very kind of equally hard, why do you find some of them to be basic versus? Well, I think they are.
MikeI think even the basic ones are very hard, oh, okay.
EldarSo I think, they are hard.
MikeSo you agree with him, I agree with him. I think all of them are very hard. But I think people may be practicing prematurely certain things that are way too advanced for them, where they haven't, in my opinion, figured out the basics. But again, it doesn't. It sounds like weird, but in my head it makes sense.
EldarYeah, I think that, like he said, to be able to practice self-respect in 95 or 99% of the times would be extremely difficult, absolutely.
Perception, Reality, and Measuring Virtues
EldarToliy
But also I feel, like in Mike's point, which I think that if we were all to subjectively talk about any of these kinds of things, it's very hard to not categorize certain things as easy or hard. Because when you're talking about it from that kind of point of view, I think that, like you're making a judgment as to how well or not well, you do something Right and then you're forming from there a take as to what makes something harder or easy.
EldarRight, it's very subjective, yeah.
ToliySomeone could go and be like, you know, let's just say Mike was playing, if he was playing with players of basketball that are not so good, and then, like, let's say, someone comes in and like, dominates them maybe. Like basketball is easy, right, like the sport of basketball is easy. Like they had an experience, they have a certain perception of things and now they formed like a like a conclusion on that Right Now, throw in players who are really good, like you, or other people who are very good throwing some NBA players, then that person gets destroyed. They'd be like, wow, there's actually way more to the sport than I thought, right, yeah, so like, for example, that might be an example of how someone might make a conclusion about something but then, based on like new findings, then they would change their opinions.
ToliySo this is an example of perception is actually not the reality, so so because a lot of people like this generally perception is not the reality unless your perception aligns so happens to align with the reality, which is right.
EldarThat's ideal.
ToliyYeah, but I think, yeah, lots of times, like, and it could actually work in the opposite. You could, you could be like yo. Respect is very hard and you might be a pretty respectful person and not even realize it. For example, yeah, you might not even see that you're practicing that, but not even like. Like, but because you're not in tune with that, you might not even know that like this is what you're doing, but you're doing a good job at it. So it could work in both ways where it's like you think you're better than you are, and then it could work in the other way, where you're you think you're worse, but you're actually better than you are in that thing.
EldarYeah.
ToliyYeah.
EldarYeah, I think until you kind of, you know, talk about objective definitions of these things that we talk about and kind of rate them, let's just say in the most honest way possible, you know, most educated, if we can. It's very hard to kind of quantify, yeah.
ToliyThey're also in all of these things, like they're all they're, for example, the virtue of self-respect. Right, let's just say, maybe for me, let's just say in, like the business world, the sales world, at the point where I'm at now, it might be easier for me to practice self-respect in that. Yeah, Right, for example, yeah, but maybe you throw me in a different scenario and maybe, like, in this business world, I can be self-respect like 95% of the time. Yeah, I could really practice it. I don't disrespect myself, I don't overextend, I don't, like you know, promise things I can't do and, like you know, I don't do any of that right.
ToliyBut then you throw a virtue up against yeah, let's say a relationship, and then you just get started getting ragdolled yeah, right Now, what Now? Like, have you mastered self-respect? And so I feel like to me it's like there's no, there's no, like doing the basics or not, because all of these things have so many different ties and so many different parts of your life that the application, the like, the upholding, the education, all that combined with all of these things is an endless path. Okay, and you're an expert and a novice at the same time always Sure.
EldarSo then let me ask you this question Can't we then not use happiness in specific fields as a measure to know whether or not we have some mastery of those virtues within that particular field?
ToliyWait you, you worded that in a very confusing way, can't? We can?
Eldarwe can we use, okay, not can't, can't we use. Can we use Right? I can say it like that Okay, yeah, yeah.
ToliyCan we use happiness as a measure, right?
EldarOf mastery of a specific virtue was just a self-respect, like you said in the specific field.
ToliyMeaning now. Would you consider ignorance happiness?
EldarHold on a second Before you hit me with that one. Yeah, would you say that when talking about self-respect, that you are generally happy the way you carry yourself when you do sales? When it comes to self-respect, yes. You do, I do so. There you go, right. So I mean, without going into depth of what's actually going on and stuff, right, making examples and stuff, then that's your measure to say that you know what in business or in sales, I have self-respect.
ToliyYeah.
EldarSo what happiness be a good measure A university within a specific field.
MikeRight Acceptable university probably right.
EldarYeah, yeah, you know what I mean. Obviously, we're going off of totally's, but I think, me and totally speak the same language when it comes to happiness and self-respect, where we can both say that totally doesn't punk out on the phone call versus, for example, how Philip does All right. Yeah.
EldarWho doesn't carry self-respect, right, yeah, through the phone call. So I think that there you go, right. If you can take the ruler of happiness into different fields, like he said, right, then I'll take this and say you know what, totally, let's just have. Say that he has an imaginary girlfriend, you know, are you happy with your self-respect and your relationship, you know, in your romantic relationship? Yeah, with your relationship with your parents, for example, right. Or something else, a relationship somewhere else, right. And it goes on and on, and on, and on, and on and on, because we obviously are not limited to just
Exploring Identity and Expertise in Life
Eldartotally. Is not just a sales guy, he's also a brother, he's also a son. You know what I mean. Sometimes he's a daughter.
EldarNo, I'm just, you know, but there's different roles and different things that we play right in this life, different identities that we have and I think the mastery of those things that you said virtues, self-respect and some other stuff, honesty and things like that can carry different weight based on the field that we've mastered or not.
ToliyYes.
EldarYeah, I don't, and we can measure it through happiness. If we're happy or not, yeah, which is still subjective.
ToliyYeah, see, like I don't view them maybe so much as connected, but maybe like the feeling that you get with it might be or the right word might be like balance, you know, Like if you're not working all of those things, you're going to have an imbalance that occurs, but not necessarily that they're all, let's say, directly connected where you can't have one or the other. So, like that, that's how I view it, right, Like, and it all applies to all different individuals, because a virtue is something that exists outside of you and it's something that you tune into in that specific thing that you're talking about. Okay, so that's what I'm saying is I think we're all experts, you know, intermediate whatever that word is right, and novices right, like all at the same time, because we're noobs in certain fields, right.
ToliyAnd then we're experts and others and then we're okay, and others, and then we're growing, and others, and some we haven't even discovered yet. But how does that happen? How?
Eldardo you like? That's the question. See, Mike has a problem with that because he actually has original questions like look, everything's tied. Why isn't that translating?
MikeWhy are you an expert in that, but you're not? But like, why are you leveling up differently in different things? And is that right, is that wrong, or is just the natural way?
Eldarof Very good questions.
MikeWell, yeah, I feel like, for example, like right, we all at one point know to try to help other people, right, Sure, and I think that's different than just helping yourself, right? That's like maybe a next level kind of advanced thing, right, as long as well again.
Mikewe can digest that and dissect that it could be if it's for personal gain, so yeah, so if you're going out there and you're helping other people with things, that you have a message yourself, that's more I would say an advanced level, because you're able to see it kind of through a different light. So you may be helping another person to understand what is adjusting to do, but yeah, you're not being a just person yourself, for example, within your own life. So I think that that is also interesting to me as well.
EldarWell, that just shows how dynamic we really are as humans and what we entail and embody in ourselves. Obviously, I think the goal is to be able to be in different spectrums of different identities and function out of the happy level, which is competent level, to be whatever is needed in that moment. When you're a salesperson, you know you have the integrity, you have honesty and you're still strong behind yours and respecting yourself, right? You want that to translate also into your relationship, right? And if whatever other things that you partake in, you know if you're I don't know playing basketball, you're part of a team, you want that to translate, you know. But that definitely is not the case. I agree with totally that. We're definitely like, if you're one, you're 80% complete and you are happy, on the other, you can be 50. And then the other, you can be 20. And at all the depends, I think that probably levels of attachments that we have, level of expertise that we have within a specific field, you know yeah.
ToliyYeah, I think it's also a different. It's different situations, I think, when you're thinking about it for yourself than for others. I mean, at least that's how I view it Like I feel that like, take me and take my emotions and take my ignorance and take the things that I don't see out of it and look at someone else. I feel like I have a very clear picture of what's, what's going on and what steps need to be applied. Throw me into the equation Now. I have things that like like different dramas, different issues, different things that I'm not seeing that I'm understanding different attachments, different feelings, and now it makes it a lot harder, of course, at that point.
ToliySo like I don't view that as like, like that, like there's one step or the other. I feel that, like, like, like I feel like, for example, when it comes to my myself at least, let's just say that, right, like I feel like growing up on different topics, I feel like I was very like pesty in different things. I just feel like a lot of my nature has been inquisitive and like like pesky and I feel like that evolved, for example, let's say, like career-wise, like what I do every single day, all day, is that I try to put myself in positions where people give me their time so I can ask them a bunch of questions. Right, Like that, that's my job, realistically right, that's what I do pretty much. Like you know, most of the day is that, especially if I have a lot of meetings or a lot of people that I can actually get on the phone, I ask them a lot of questions and then my process of learning happens from like, okay, what questions are good questions, what questions are bad questions?
ToliyAnd then it's also it's like then my job is also to try to get people that have one opinion or one understanding of how things work, to try to get them to be open to a different one potentially, or maybe get to a point where I can kind of offend them and being them being wrong, but then also kind of help them at the same time, so that they don't have to flare up their posies at me and they can give me an opportunity to tell them something that might click.
ToliyThen, when it clicks, they kind of then put me in a position of like a teacher, where then we can have a conversation and then we can evolve in our relationship. And I feel like doing that now for 10 plus years right, which is also crazy to say. I feel like it helps me get these, I guess, maybe better like an investigative type of skills where, for example, let's say, someone whose job or like, let's say, what they do on a daily basis, does not involve that kind of stuff maybe an accountant, I just unlocked a crazy thing based on what you were saying.
EldarI could tell you that later, though.
ToliyYeah, okay, yeah.
ToliySo like if your job doesn't entail that, then like those things are not going to get probably has developed right and then you're not going to have those kinds of sense sensitivities to two things.
ToliyAnd I at least feel that, like a lot of the things I've learned through philosophy, like that and I feel like I told you this before where, like that, that that's how I at least feel in sales was like my karate kid experience, where maybe you were teaching me things in philosophy and then, because I had an interest in sales, that trend, so I was learning sales while not learning sales at all. You know, and I feel like that to me, translated like understanding those kinds of relationship, doesn't mean that you can call me a good sales rep, because I also have my deficiencies as to what I'm not good at, right, right, but at least when it comes to those kinds of things, I'm very inquisitive, I'm very. I feel like I I learned over time to try to ask better questions and then when I feel like if we're talking about a scenario where I can help diagnose someone else's problem and figure out what's going on, I feel like I apply those same principles there and I feel like that. That helps me at least see what's going on there.
EldarYeah, Mike, is that helping you?
MikeYeah, no, it's interesting, for sure, I mean. I mean I think it's easier to look at all the people's objectively things that they're going through. For sure it always seems to be easier to do that.
The Complexity of Virtue and Self-Improvement
EldarYeah, right, because when you don't have a horse in a race, like you said, right, he has the ability to really, like, see things for what they are in that moment. And I think that's a beauty about us as humans, right? Another thing that was installed by whoever right In our mind that we have this ability that when we're not busy, right, fucking our own shit up in our own minds. Right, because we're constantly doing some weird shit. Right, we have the ability, or innate, innate ability right, to zoom out from our problems and zoom in on other individual and give them an objective perspective. So hopefully it's everyone has that, you know, yeah.
MikeYou know, yeah. I think most people do and I think most people would like to do that.
EldarYeah, so it's almost. It's almost like we were created in such a way to be a tribe. Right, then, because we have this innate ability to be objective about other people's problems. Right, yeah, as long as we don't have a horse in a race. We just put that okay, because, if you know, some people have a horse in a race right, they might sway you a certain type of way, or. But what we're talking about very specifically is when you don't have a horse in a race. Right, you have nothing to gain from giving your advice.
EldarRight, you can actually practice on the objective level when it comes to giving advice. But as soon as you look into yourself you're like oh man, I can't apply that same objective advice that I'm given necessarily to myself and to my own life, and I think that's where it might be the answer to your question lies. But is there's no.
MikeDo you think that there is a sequence of events where you need to? Probably I don't know if it's possible or what that really means, but I would say, use the word. You know. You kind of have to be at maybe 90% on your own self, towards yourself, before you can have a prerequisite to help other people or not, or you don't think it's supposed to be like that.
EldarNo see, I think it's the other way. You know, for some reason, that a lot and I've witnessed, obviously, this with a lot of people where you know a lot of people that have don't have their own shit together right there can be the best helpers or the best supporters, right, and they're ready to give you know what I mean Not necessarily they'll give you the right advice, right, but they're willing and able to go out of their way, right, and trying to help you out.
MikeDo you think that maybe part of it is them looking for their own salvation through helping others? It's possible.
EldarYeah, it's possible for sure, right? Or maybe you can say that they're tapping into their soul or their true nature, right? That was kind of in us that by helping others we feel good. You know what I mean? Because if we're good, what do you do? You don't just keep that to yourself. It has to spill over, right. It has to go on to other people. And when it goes on to other people, what happens is it becomes a double whammy, right? You help them, you benefit, and then, when they benefit, you benefit again. So almost three people benefit from one effort. You know, I think that's the way we were programmed.
MikeI mean, yeah, I believe that too.
EldarYou know, when a person's cup is full, it's going to have to spill over, and when it spills over in that sequence of events, you benefit like crazy.
MikeI guess this kind of thing what you just said made me think, like the thing where I was trying to say basic versus advanced, it leads me to that point where your cup is full. How do you get to that place of getting where your cup is full right? Is it through the mastery or through having that happiness? And if we're saying that living a virtuous life equals living a happier life right, or living that examined life and trying to live, I think happiness is a result of living a virtuous life right, yes, that's what I'm saying.
MikeIf that's what it is, is there like, hey, I don't read instructions, but if I was to, yeah, are they going to tell me? Hey, before you can practice patience, you got to practice self-respect.
EldarYeah.
MikeAfter you do patience, step three is, I don't know, compassion, right. Is there that, in order to reach that, what you're saying, cup full? That was the question.
EldarThat's how you tie it in.
ToliyThat's how? Yeah, I don't think that's possible, I don't think it's possible, because we all suffer with different stuff.
MikeIf you're a master of self-respect at work, I'm not going to say oh, you need to learn self-respect because you're a master already. But that's because we have dirty slates. Let's just call it that we are already working out of a deficit, you know. But now if you introduce a factor where the person is not tainted, let's just say yeah, but you can say that.
Eldarbut are we really? Are we really working?
Mikeout a deficit. To somebody who's mastered that, yes, but to ourselves we're working out of where we need to be sure, yeah.
EldarOkay, right, I'm not sure, because, based on what we're discovering here, we have everything that we need inside of us Of course.
MikeKnowing this fact, it's not a deficit at all If you have the tools to dig a hole. No, dig a hole with a shovel we use in a fork. I think that it's inevitable. I'm sure it is inevitable.
EldarYou know what?
MikeI'm saying, then there's other.
ToliyIt might take a couple of lifetimes. Yeah, but it's also I can't find a way to look at it like that where it's like you have to do self-respect before you do this, because it's just like there's so many. You can maybe have a similar, maybe you could have a sequences on one particular thing, one particular topic. Give an example, like saying that okay, before you have compassion, you need to have self-respect. I feel like that's impossible to generalize that as a whole, because there's self-respect in so many different portions of your life Sure.
ToliySo, if you're talking about from a time perspective or from a ability to understand perspective, you need to learn and the process of learning. You don't just learn one thing at a time and you don't do anything else all day. So it's like, for example, if you were to think about it or know, let's say you wanted to learn how to master the act of making coffee. If that was something that you're doing, you're still doing many other things in your life. You're interacting with people, you are I don't know. Let's say that you're working and learning. Coffee is like your hobby. So you have work, maybe you have family, maybe you have how you act when you go to the grocery store, when you're at a deli or at a restaurant or buying clothes or reading news or on the subway.
ToliyLife is extremely complex when it comes to all the different micro details of everything. So, unless you're in a box and you're just devoting 24 hours a day to just one aspect of one thing at a time, you're going to experience. Life is what I'm saying by just being alive and doing things. So there's so much information, so many different things that's coming at you that I don't think it's possible to just over-arching. I just feel like people are so ever-evolving and learning beings. So there's no stagnant state where you just learn self-respect because eventually you're going to get better at something that's going to require a new level of self-respect.
ToliyYou're going to get better at that and that's going to require a new level of self-respect. So, unless you're an item that is like something that just remains stagnant, I think it's impossible to just say that you've learned self-respect because you're going to evolve and the problems are going to evolve, and the problems are going to evolve and also so the application of yourself to have self-respect will have to evolve.
ToliyYeah, and then also it's like, as learning also involves, some problems might drop off or you might not even have to find a solution for it because it's no longer a problem, because you learned something new. That like, yeah, I don't have this issue anymore, like that. So it's just like I think it's impossible to say that because you, as a living human, you're going to participate in life, and participate in life, all of those virtues are going to be touched every single day. Is this true? Every single day, in all different aspects, and they're all in all different levels, and they're all in all different levels?
ToliyYeah, I think nobody just is like we're like, wow, that person has self-respect. Yeah, To say that, I think, would be inaccurate because, like, again they might have it in one thing that you're perceiving Well, again they might not have it in something else.
EldarWhat you're showing is that we also have an issue with the way we describe the things that we're witnessing or our perceptions. Right, Like you said, hey, you can say that he has self-respect in sports, but that does not translate to your family life and all this other stuff. So we have to speak properly when we describe him or we're describing.
ToliyYes, that's what I'm saying. I think it's impossible to generalize that like you've mastered. Like, yeah, I would say virtue is so. Yeah, like, because virtues are things that exist outside of us, right, when we tune into them, it's not just like you get it and you get it, it's like a tuning into it and you can tune out of it. It's interesting how you put it, you can tune out of it. Right, let me throw some different obstacles your way. Let's say if you have self-respect with your parents.
ToliyRight, let me throw some different obstacles your way where you're going to have a shit day and then throw you in that thing and let's see if you can have that same self-respect. Or is there a chance you might get ham-hugged? Yeah, right, yeah. Now throw you on regular conditions. Great sleep, your focus, stuff, like that. You're going to have a 99.9, right, great, yeah. So it's like it's a tuning into it and I think the practice of it is what makes you tune into that channel probably more often and probably have a stronger signal.
EldarBut an individual who has the ability to then to understand that things work the way they do you, the way you just explained, has the ability to then balance those things at the right times so they can tap into their greatest self within that particular moment.
ToliyWell, yeah, that's what I was saying. I was saying that I view it more as like a balancing act. Is that you can't just have this obsession, for example, over self-respect, because then something else is going to, you're not going to have capacity for something else. So it's like it's a balancing act of finding out what works and then, as you learn, you might find that this no longer works right. What works for us now might not work for us in two months, because again, we're not stagnant to the point of like okay, how?
Eldardo you convince yourself along enough to be able to always remember this?
ToliyHow do you convince yourself to always remember this? Well, I'm not sure if it's possible to always remember this because you're ignorant. Well, there is there is, there is humility right? Well, there is humility, but there is still ignorance. We're still going to have these moments.
EldarWell, that's why I think Sakurini stressed what he stressed right.
ToliyYeah, I think before, like before the opportunity for learning occurs, there probably has to be an acknowledgement of ignorance first.
EldarI think we talked about this earlier.
ToliyYeah, I don't think that you can just learn and just always be in this like, yeah, no matter what, I'm down, you know.
EldarSo there you go, Mike. That's your prerequisite. She just gave it to us.
ToliyYeah, you probably have to have an acknowledgement in the moment of ignorance to then have humility, to then to learn, because humility is not required without ignorance.
EldarThere you go. You know I agree with this 100%. It's well put you know.
Toliybut that's what I'm saying. You can't just be like, yeah, no matter what, I'm humble and I'm going to do that no way, because you're evolving, that's right. You're an ever-evolving person and you're never. You can't, you're not like an inanimate object that, like this, is what it's going to be. It's not going to get any larger, it's not going to get any smaller, it's not going to progress in any kind of way. It just is what it is. The human psyche is like in mind is so, so, so complex and so powerful that your development is never ending.
EldarThat is why, if you understand this fact of what he just said, you ought to stay away from making any type of conclusion, because if you do, this is what creates war, and again, this is I said. The antidote to this is to have a curious mind. If you have enough curious mind, you'll continue to have open-ended questions. Open-ended questions will lead you to what Humility, right? Hey, I actually don't know. I actually want to find out, so you'll never get in trouble, right?
ToliyWell, well, well. Yeah, because if you get to a point where you figured something out, now you're ignorant. I would say you could just say that you're ignorant now. That's a technical ignorant statement, Because you are evolving, you're going to find out more guaranteed.
EldarThat's going to be more about life, about yourself, yeah.
ToliyYeah, I don't think one lifetime is probably enough for anybody to figure anything out.
EldarSo would that be an evidence to our incarnation, or no, it might be.
ToliyI think you'd probably have it a lot easier if you just said yo, there's no rush, calm down. Yeah, but you're not going to get this anyway. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, why don't you get like 10% of this in this lifetime? So would you call YOLO a virus?
EldarWhat Call, what YOLO? A virus. You want to live once a virus, the saying.
ToliyYOLO bro. Well, yeah, but like it's also I don't know if you remember I said that like you know, like people say that, like life is short and I guess it is kind of in over all short when you're doing it wrong, it feels very long, yeah Right, because it's just like constant pain and suffering and shitty scenarios.
Attachments, Ego, and Competence
ToliyWhen it's great, it feels fast, like whoa, this has gone by. Yeah Right, like how many times have you did something that you liked, realized you're late for the next thing and you can't believe that, while three hours just passed, yeah, holy shit, you're almost surprised because you weren't in pain, you were in like bliss. And those states always feel short. That's why you want to get back to them as soon as possible, you know.
EldarMike, are we onto something? We got you stumped, or what?
MikeNo, no, no, no, it's not stumped. No, I mean it's you guys. I agree, you agree, I agree with you guys are saying yeah.
ToliyYeah, I think he has it all wrong and like what they view as like the basics and not basics and like maybe like the very preschool stuff, they're actually teaching the most advanced things about sharing, about caring, about, like those little cartoons kids, they always teach that. But I think where they get it wrong is that they feel like this is it Like, let's say, you're an adult, yeah, by default you should understand these things, and then like there's no emphasis on that moving forward, yeah, like you know, life just gets slowly ruined over time because you don't have an emphasis on those things. There's emphasis on, like, what they consider, you know, different, grand, like grandiose things, but when you have those basics, those other grandiose things in life become extremely easy, becomes extremely easy to make money, becomes extremely easy to I don't know, figure out those, those problems that people are just wrestling with nonstop, that are so, so basic and irrelevant.
ToliyBut because they don't have, like Mike said, like those things that we're saying is basics, yeah, right, about compassion and stuff like that, right, yeah, okay, we have a good start. Then then then like, yeah, like, if we don't have those, then everything just becomes very hard.
EldarYeah, you know. So are you saying that things are the way they are and they're exactly where they're supposed to be?
ToliyI guess. So yeah, but you know it's like a. I always pin you against that one, yeah yeah, yeah, you always like to pin that one. I always get the three. Count on you with this one. Yeah, oh, no, yeah, it is, but it's difficult to accept that.
EldarWhy? Who is it difficult for accept to? For who? For your ego?
ToliyFor your pride. Yeah, it's difficult. Yeah, it's difficult as long as attachment exists. It's difficult when attachment is dropped and it's easy, okay. Yeah, fair enough.
MikeSo is the fight, is always the fight between ego and humility. For some form of it. That's actually a good question.
ToliyWell, yeah, I think ego, humility and ignorance, they're in like a constant wrestling match.
MikeEgo is ignorance too right Part of it. Or no, I don't know.
ToliyI think they might be a little separate. Separate, I guess they can be another, I think, but they're not always, I think.
EldarSee, yeah, the thing is, it's hard to answer that or make a conclusion, because yeah, because if you don't know, are you actually If you don't know.
EldarEgo usually knows. Yeah, ego thinks it knows let's put it that way, right, it doesn't actually fucking know Shit. You know what I mean, but it's a convincing factor that makes you think that you do know. It's a fucking trick, it's an illusion. You know what I mean. If you're ignorant and if you're in the state of ignorance, you're almost relieved of that, of that almost responsibility of the ego.
ToliyYeah, that's also why I think that Socrates said that examined life is not worth living On the examined life is not worth living. Yeah and I think he said that because he realized that you might think you know, but you're not gonna find out that you don't know through pain and suffering, through pain and suffering, and he said, yeah, this is not what I want, that's not what he advised for. Yeah, and by examining it, I think that you eliminate higher chances of you having pain and suffering in those different things by doing that.
EldarSo what are you suggesting? Well, on what? On what Mike's asking? Well, the people that have a thing like hey, you know, before you start doing this, right Before you start doing this goal, you should have these prerequisites, you know.
MikeI think it ties into the topic that you know that we're talking off the off the air after work, which was you were trying to pin toly with something that he always he always has a hard time with a process. Right, seeing other people struggling with things which which to him seems to be basic, but right, maybe they seem like you're the ridiculous. Yeah, you know, but it's not that person.
EldarYeah, that's, I think, ties close to the same topic. Yeah, that that person might actually, like he said, like you know, in that specific field he might be just a noob, you know, and that's his process, you know, but something that he's really good.
MikeI don't know. I'll just obviously easy example like this guy's really good at basketball player yeah. With sports we hear all the time, right, yeah, Athletes like yo, this guy's really great athlete. He might, he must be really good at everything else yeah. And then these people start giving a statement about how the world ought to be, how things should be right yeah. And then people who are, I guess, not aware they're looking at him like, oh yeah, he's right, he's, he's great at basketball, he's the best basketball player right now. Yeah, he must know something about life or other subjects, yeah, yeah.
MikeAnd basketball doesn't mean shit. That's right, yeah. And unless you're doing philosophy basketball, then it could be mean something.
EldarMost likely you're not, but you're probably not.
MikeYeah, most likely you're not. I mean, I wouldn't bet on that. But if you're able to practice that, what you practice with the philosophical application of it, then you can say actually, yeah, I'm a basketball philosopher or whatever, right, but I don't think those guys are pursuing that. But people I guess out of our own ignorance or I don't know what we look at people like, oh, this guy's really great at this. Therefore you give him the pass for a lot more other stuff. You know thinking like, oh, he must be good at that as well. Yeah, and we get, we get. I don't know.
EldarWell, you know, I think we put on those what are they called? Beer goggles, right, and we have, maybe, aligning attachments to the certain things that were accomplished by that individual. Therefore, we appoint them to be the spokesperson for that specific attachment. Right, you know what I mean. And when we do that, right, we automatically kind of let him pass through the metal detector right without searching him. Oh, this guy actually is an idiot on this subject completely. But we're letting them go through and say, you know, yeah, can you tell me more about politics too? Yeah, yeah, we might have that same understanding, or whatever. Yeah, just to find out that they have no idea what the fuck they're talking about. Yeah.
MikeYeah, so what are you guys saying? I don't think I'm still waiting for a totally example. Oh yeah, that's why I think examples are interesting, because you know, sometimes for me I also may look at certain people be like yo, this guy's very competent in this, but he's a complete asshole or an idiot in the basic stuff, and to me it's very fascinating.
EldarWell, remember the most. The example of this was when Toly talks the things that he talks about, and then he goes on the basketball court, right, very specifically, where he's inflicted by a very specific thing, which is called competition, let's just say, which not necessarily is bringing out the best in him, right? Or to a point where you guys were fighting with each other because he was so competitive that when he saw you, who's not so competitive at all, right, he wanted you to have outcomes that are not possible for you, so you naturally clashed heads at the time. Yeah, so this? I think this is a very good example, as, where you know, attachments in different fields will dictate some of our competencies that don't translate from one to another. Maybe, I think, though, individual that can translate those things wins when it comes to happiness.
MikeSeeing things for what they are right.
EldarAcross the board of all the different things and be able to apply those traits right. Good traits, let's just say the things that he has off the court. Clearly, no, toly is not crazy monster. He turns into a monster when he has this competitive spirit driving him right. So there's a clear disparity. You know, even though he was highly behind the fact that he's always happy when he plays. Oh no, I think that was me. No, it's you yeah what.
ToliyYeah, no, you said that you're always happy.
EldarI know that You're always happy. No matter what I know, what I just did, yeah, so it's very interesting, you know. So that definitely helps me to be able to maybe compartmentalize this whole structure of our mind in such a way. Like you said, hey, there's certain prerequisites that we should have in certain things, but no, it's.
Mikedon't put yourself against that assumption, because I guess the number one prerequisite is to be aware of your ignorance and try to be humble.
EldarYes, and that's why the titles things. Yes, that's why I think that it's so interesting with your case, where you know you're learning the things that you're learning, but let's throw the biggest kicker into your process, right, the biggest attachment love, romantic relationship into the spanner. See what happens to all your, what happens to all your, all the things that you've learned, and the jury is still out on that. Oh yeah, for sure, the jury is still out on that to see whether or not you're going to be able to translate those things.
Virtue's Importance in Skill Development
EldarYou know, I think, I think he's betting against you. I'm not saying anything. Got to your head Over on there. He's going to succeed.
ToliyWell, right, now Right now, right now, yeah, right now. I say now there you go, yeah.
MikeAnd you might be under oppression and you say yes, yeah, I mean, I know where he stands.
EldarI think that you'll do a lot better than you used to. Yeah, but will there be mistakes and some pitfalls? Absolutely yeah.
MikeI don't think it's a possible, not a way to avoid mistakes or pitfalls.
EldarYeah, yeah, so, yeah. So I think that's a good way to look at it. I think, to look at it this way, it's almost to practice maybe self-acceptance, right, a little bit of more self-love in the areas that you are not progressing as fast as you maybe thought you should have, because you've mastered one area.
ToliyYeah, well, I think probably the best thing that you can do for yourself as an individual is to take a look at the places that you're extremely competent in or very good at, right, maybe think about those things, right, and try to recollect and think about how you got there, what you did, what things worked for you in that thing and what things didn't work for you, and remember what was that kind of progression like, right, remember, have recollection of when you were a noob and when you were afraid to take a phone call or when you were this or you were overextending yourself or offering free shit or doing different stuff like that.
ToliyAnd try to remember that progression and think about what happened along the way and how you overcame those different things. And then, I think, examine the place of yeah, examine that whole progression of things, right, so anything that any of us are very good at, for example, take that thing, look at it, look at the whole progression of things, of how it happened, right, remember, try to remember who you were at the very early stages, the rebellious stages, the terrible twos yeah, the terrible twos the middle stages, right. And now, if you are in an advanced place, for example, in that thing think about where you're at now. Right, take all that right and take all that. And then the thing that you're, I guess, looking at now. It would only be right if you look at all that and you remember all that that you have to treat yourself like a novice all over again at that thing and you need to have respect for the process.
ToliyYeah, that process, and you need to really believe and understand why you're an actual noob, because you can see what your progression was. You can remember what happened, you know. Can you remember what happened? Well, that's the thing. I think that if you're good at life, if you want to call it that, you would be able to have that ability, like when we were bringing up the Tom Brady example. You can recollect what happened for you to get good at football. You should respect those same principles when you're talking about a relationship, for example.
ToliyYou should understand that you're a noob, that person is long gone and dead.
MikeNo but I'm not sure this applies here for what I just thought about. Tom Brady got to be a great football player not because he lived a virtuous life. He didn't apply anything that was actually rooted in truth, so he got there just by, I don't know, luck athleticism no, I disagree with that. You're saying that he lived a virtuous life to become a football player.
ToliyI think that he had to tune into things of virtue to in any kind of act. I think to get good at something you have to have instances where you're humble. You have to have instances of being respectful. You need to practice all of those crafts to get to that advanced place In that thing. It does not matter what the field is. You need to tune into those virtues. To get to a place where you're good at something, you need to have particular levels of hard work, of dedication, of humility, of respect. You need to allow people to teach you. It's not just like something, especially somebody. For example, like in his case where I showed you that picture of him and his boxers where he just looks like a buffoon. There's zero chance anybody looks at that picture and says this person's going to be the best ever at his position. They could be like this person's an accountant, probably right At the team, maybe, or some tech guy.
ToliyYeah, I think that he had to tune, it wasn't like a natural LeBron James freak. Well, again, even LeBron James, how many people are also like six, eight and like 250 in the NBA? I mean, in NBA terms it's not a crazy uncommon thing, it's not that? It's a lot of different things that he probably did and applies that and understandings of where his mind is to allow him to see and understand those things.
MikeYeah, but I think the line between discipline and self-love is very blurry for most people. So LeBron James may be LeBron James not because he used self-love to get to where he is, but he may be used discipline to get to where he is.
EldarThat's all that requires to be successful in the NBA, for example. What do you talk like in the case of putting a ball into a metal ring at a very specific height over and over again? I'm not sure if it takes necessarily virtue in order to do that.
ToliyWell, no, I'm just saying that along the way. I think of learning particular things and doing particular things. I do think you need to tap into virtue.
MikeI think, you come across. Yeah, but again, it's that thing you were saying earlier.
EldarThere's plenty of athletes that you can name right now that are very ignorant, very disrespectful and where they are they're just letting us fuck, yeah, and they get what they get Money-wise and stuff like that and fame and all this other stuff. You clearly can tell these people are not deserving of this at all.
ToliyYeah, but if you're looking at them as people overall, are you talking about? We're talking about them being competent in one thing, not like they're overarching.
EldarYeah, but I think Mike is having a problem that you're saying that they had to tap into some virtues in order to get to a place where they are right now, which is like fame, success and money.
Toliylet's just say Well, I'm talking about in the relationship of that one thing I think that he had to put himself in positions to absorb a lot of information and get taught by people and allow that kind of process to happen, otherwise you wouldn't be able to, I think, To get in mastery levels. I think a lot is required from that.
MikeBut again, yeah, sure, it's possible.
The Relationship Between Talent and Virtue
MikeBut people go to 20 years to become a doctor. In school they use discipline, they get a lot of information, a lot of education. It doesn't mean they're doing the doctoring out of the kindness of their heart. They want to help people, their patient, their kind and compassion to every patient that comes across, or even half of the patients, I think again, that's why I said those lines can be very blurry. A person may absorb the information, but they always may be tied to their attachment to want to be the best or to prove to somebody else that they're better.
ToliyNo, but in that example, the doctor, you would have to define them like what's a good doctor?
MikeYeah. So what's a good football player? Why is Tom Brady good? Because he's the best in the world, but he got there by what? Turning the Throat? Yeah, jeff Bales is the richest person in the world.
EldarOr Ellen DeGeneres I heard that she's very successful when it comes to her show, but she's a big piece of shit when it comes to treating all her employees, or something like that.
MikeYeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm not sure allegedly. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know these people intimately enough, but I can't even speak about Tom Brady. But my initial thing is how do we know, how do I know, at least, that he got there by living that life where he actually did tap into listening and learning, not because he was tapping into his attachment to become a millionaire, to prove people wrong, to be the best ever? I don't know the story, but that's why I asked that question.
EldarAnd I think that if he didn't retain certain things in order to be able to apply those things in his other life, aspects of his life, especially a big one like a family life I think that takes a lot of your time to be a husband, dad, and all this other role model, all this other stuff If he didn't retain any of it, then how much of an influence was it really during his upcoming years?
MikeIs it possible? I guess no. I guess the question is is it possible to be this great football player, possibly getting there through a virtuous way, and not have that spillover into other areas of your life where you're also a good dad at least, or a good husband? Yeah. I don't know the answer to that question. That's something that came to mind. Maybe he focused all his energy to his craft, but then he abandoned everything else in his life. I don't know Well.
EldarI thought it was just making the suggestions, like he should kind of try to go back and see the years.
ToliyWell, no, I was just trying to make the suggestion that if you are good at something, look at it, think about it, examine it, think about the whole process that happened, try to and this is not like a 30-second exercise for you to recollect let's say like 10 years of progression.
EldarYeah, but you know, one thing is to be able to apply those principles to a hobby. A hobby is a very blind effort to getting good. Would you say that I don't know.
ToliyWhat does that mean? A blind effort.
EldarOkay. So if I tell you right now, get good at putting this towel down, you're going to be like, oh shit. It's a very specific effort, very like oh shit. You know what I mean? It's a concentrated focus effort.
EldarIf I told you to play your favorite video game. All right, how easy it is for you to start leveling up one level, second level, third level, fourth level, fifth level, and so on. All right, it's a lot more blinded, I would say like, not as conscious, not as concentrated in the sense of pain. Right, it's very like. Yeah, I like this. I'm just going to keep doing it, doing it hour after hour after hour. I'm completely focused in it, so it's easier to get there because you like it, you know.
EldarBut laying down tile now get humble, get on your knees, hurt a little bit. Oh, you don't like doing it. It's for the greater good. Can't you see the bigger picture? Right, these are the type of questions then come your way. Why am I doing this? The fuck? I don't want to do this. I don't know how to do this. This is going to take me so much time to learn what the fuck to do here. Right, versus, like, hey, check out this game and you're like oh shit, this is cool. I really, really like this. It's effortless, you just run with it.
ToliyYeah, but I mean it might be effortless, but it doesn't mean that you're good at it. Oh, you get good at it.
EldarNo, Sooner or later you're going to get good at it. If you keep doing it, if you keep liking it, I think with more practice, enjoyment and stuff like that, you naturally kind of fall into the lines of getting better at something that you like to do. No, Is this not true? I don't know.
ToliyLike that guy that comes to play basketball. I mean he doesn't really come often, but sometimes. You know that guy I'm talking about with the colored hair, Trent's, like Henry and all them Colored hair yeah, Like they all make fun of him. You know, Black guy, black guy, Spansker. Yeah, black guy, black guy, black guy you know what I'm talking about he comes to like the Henry crew. At times They'll like not let him get next and be like nah, nah, I had next remember, oh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, he's a little bit thicker.
EldarYes, yes, oh, yes, I know what he's talking about. Yeah, yeah, he has like a weird walk.
MikeYeah, yeah, yeah.
ToliyLike he might love basketball and like you know stuff like that, but like he's terrible.
EldarOh, I mean you know, I mean you. Just, you just prove the point as to my theory works here by saying that his friends don't even, don't, don't, don't even allow him to play.
ToliyLike yeah, but he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't know. It's like a lot of it doesn't play enough.
EldarLike sure, you have to love it, but you have to do it too.
ToliyYeah, but if you have two left feet you got two left feet?
EldarYeah, but you have to keep doing it. I mean, the guy that does have two left feet, the one that acts like a Bron James and a lover Bron James, Remember that guy? The.
MikeSpanish guy. You know what I mean.
EldarHe has some skills out there, bro, he's out there and he's doing it and he's loving it and he, he's terrible, he's terrible. He's good in my eyes, he's good you know what I'm saying.
MikeI work effort.
EldarNo, no, like to the capacity, yeah Of an individual. I think he's very good. He has one foot, he hobbles when he plays ball.
ToliyIf you're talking about individual capacity, I mean, that's a whole different.
EldarWell, no, I think this is what I'm talking about in general. Oh, okay, all right, you're leveling up still to your level, to whatever it is that ultimately you can achieve, like I mean, you know, you don't see five footers playing in the NBA, right, yeah, you don't as much as they love basketball. There's five feet of individuals out there who are just five feet short and they love basketball. They love it.
EldarYeah, I think we only had one moxie bugs. It was five one, five two, something like that. And what Fifty years? What are we talking about here? At the end of the day, right, you have to be also like gifted to the sport. Yeah, the sport requires the taller the better you know athletic athleticism and all the stuff that comes with it.
EldarSo it's not just likeness, obviously, in the place of sport, but I think it's a big kicker If you like it, it's going to come to you much easier and I think that certain things will be overlooked. Right In the sense of virtues, right, doing the right thing? No, I like doing this and it doesn't matter what I have to do. You know, I really like this game and I like winning. Sometimes I'll cheat, I'll put on an aimbot or a wall hack. You know, in my favorite shooter game, you know first person shooter.
EldarI really want to win. You know You're willing to cut a little bit of corners here and there. So I'm like, do we answer your question? You're about prerequisites for the greater things in life, for virtues and things like that. Yeah, good. So you're not going to complain about this anymore. I might still.
MikeWhy you don't get it. No, I do get it, but it's going to take some time to register. Oh, I think so. Yeah, wow, because you know you have to.
ToliyYou don't get it I do get it.
Eldaryeah, I think he gets it in the moment and I understand his argument here too. You also get it in the moment.
ToliyThat's what I'm saying. You get a lot of things. I'm an ape, then I'm an ape.
EldarYeah, but yeah, I definitely would like to. It's a matter of recollection now, right Again. Now maybe your soul registered what he said, what I said, and you understood it and you agree with it. But again, you're going to go out there tomorrow, you're going to wake up and the ape is around you, yourself as the ape. Of course you know and you're like, oh shit, you know and sometimes you'll remember, sometimes you won't Well.
ToliyThat, I think it's also like I mean. To me, based on what I was hearing, it sounds like there needs to be a redefining of what's basics, what's advanced, what's hard.
EldarNo, that's why I think that your suggestion about compartmentalizing everything in fields of identity, let's just say right now, I'm a podcaster, we're all podcasters right now. Right, we're podcasting let's just say whatever the fuck that means. Right Before this, nine to five, we were workers. We were working for a company to make money, to get paid. Right After this, you're going to be a son with your parents. You're going to be, you know, homeowner, landowner. I'm going to be a husband, you know, and these are going to be my dogs. These are all different identities Throughout the day. Tomorrow, me, you and maybe totally, will be basketball players, right, and we have different identities that are there. So I think it's a good idea to kind of maybe quantify some of our developments within those specific roles, to know that, you know, in here I'm 20% respectful to myself
Reflection on Personal Actions and Reactions
Eldarand others.
ToliyYeah, what I just thought about, like do you remember in that movie, in A Goodfellas, where, like the character that Joe Pashie plays, this guy's like a gangster, a killer, and then he makes a thing to make sure that he's home in the morning to like, make pancakes and for his kids and like he puts on an apron and starts cooking eggs yeah, yeah, yeah, he's killing people, like three hours ago trying to find where to bury their bodies and shit but he makes it a priority that every day he never misses it, that he makes breakfast and takes his kid to school and answers his homework questions. Why, yeah, like Complementalizing, yeah, yeah, so we would be like it's a good dad, you know, for example, right, yeah, for somebody who's looking, who sees him only in the morning.
EldarYeah, he's like yo such a good dad. He makes it a thing every morning.
ToliyHe takes care of his kids. He packs it on lunch. He's fresh bacon. He was making orange juice. You know everything, yeah.
EldarYeah, like I spoke, we mentioned, you know, the example of Martin Luther King, right? The person who led the people right, who spoke about the truth, who spoke about equality and justice, right, that's what he was big on Was cheating on his wife, mm-hmm.
ToliyRight. This is actually true, or no?
EldarWell, this is a thing, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MikeYeah, what I was thinking about is I guess you have to. You understand this, but I'm not sure you can help me translate it to totally if he doesn't understand. But you know, anybody, this is the part where you don't get. Yeah, no, you might get this yeah it's not.
MikeYou have to, I guess, have notes on yourself, but also have notes on the people you interact with too, to kind of know where's your strengths, your weaknesses, right On your own. And then we're in a relationship to them and then in a relationship to that person you know, and then also that person like, if I know that he's always late, I shouldn't get upset that he's always late. Yeah, I know he's late. This is a note Like that's it. If he's not. If he's late, I shouldn't be surprised.
EldarSee, it would be very difficult to do it to quantify, especially a person like yourself who knows a lot of people right To quantify every person's schedule In general.
MikeI think that if you had, a virtue of acceptance, for example.
EldarIn that case, you've come to realize that you have an open-ended thing about that. So therefore you're not subjected to a time or conclusion that oh, if they're late, therefore they disrespect me, and all this other stuff.
ToliyYeah, see, like I almost view that like, for example, like I feel like there's a lot of times where I have poor reactions to things, right, and when I view you, for example, in those similar scenarios, you have much better reactions.
ToliyAnd you might be, you could be like not feeling, but like you could be like maybe feeling what I'm feeling, for example, inside, but you may find it valuable to not show that or not to actually say it or do it, for example, or just like like you may have understood why I had that reaction because, like you know this and this makes sense, but you may have understood it. I feel like to me it's not even like the practice of acceptance, because that's a very I feel like, like I think it's a very difficult thing to just like to like direct someone to do right, it's like just be honest, going forward, and it's like well, like you know like all right, right, I just feel that, like, oftentimes, what I'll do is I won't be in the moment, and when I'm not in the moment, I'm probably acting like an ape because I'm not giving myself an opportunity to think.
ToliyI think all of us, when we're thinking individuals in the moment, we can tune into all of those virtuous things, always pretty much, yeah, like when we're all thinking and we're discussing something.
ToliyNobody's an asshole, yeah, like you know, like dishonest. Nobody's like. Everyone has self respect, everyone's respectful. You tune into all these things when you allow yourself to be a thinking individual. So when I oftentimes I'm on the end of reflecting on these things, right of reflection, and I'm like what happened, I'm like okay, like I wasn't thinking, yeah, like that's the reality, because if I'm thinking, I know I'm probably going to align with probably much better things Alcoms. Yeah. Way more often than not, and when I'm not thinking I might get lucky sometimes.
Mikeand not react, but the non-thinking. Do you think that's like? Is that us thinking that we got it figured out, or I think it's something else?
ToliyWell, well, well well. It's a combination of that. Yes, I think I think Eldar finds value. I think a lot of good questions. Eldar
Being Present and Curious
Toliyfinds value. I think in pretty much in like all moments of thinking where, when I reflect on it, I'm like, oh, I skipped that.
EldarLike I'm, like I skipped and because that's why you like the movie, click, click, clickbait.
ToliyOh yeah, maybe I mean that sounds like the worst thing to do. You know it's a skip, that's right, yeah, and yeah.
EldarWell, if you're giving me a compliment that I have the ability to zoom in into most moments and extract what's needed to be extracted and you're not, you fast forwarding certain moments.
ToliyYeah, that's. What I'm saying is that I don't have the ability yet to find the importance in thinking in all moments and then speaking. Oftentimes I'm like, skip that I'm going to speak, skip that I'm going to speak, and when that happens, you often act like an idiot. Because of it, you could come out of character or come out of phase, to like have a feeling towards an ignorant person. So where do you were?
Toliythinking you would be like okay, this person that you're feeling, that this person's acting ignorant, therefore you cannot feel this kind of way towards them, right, yeah?
EldarSo what do you do into combat that?
ToliyWell, I guess that may be a part of my original question of the night about like, what do you do day to day to these kinds of things you know to like? I don't know like to, because then you're basically asking, like it seems like you're saying that this is a recipe of happiness, some form of happiness. Yeah, but you're not doing it and yeah, I think a lot of times I'm on the end of like reflection and then being like fuck, like you know, like yeah, you missed it.
ToliyLike I missed it, you know. But I do think that I have an evolution of this and I do feel that I've evolved.
EldarI see I hear it? I hear it. In what? In the sense that I do, I do see the progress that you're trying to catch up. You know, within those moments, I do see it, yeah, yeah.
ToliyAnd I feel like I definitely feel the worst when I have the realization that, like I skip something and now I'm like you know. I mean it's like now to me more and more becoming like a more devastating feeling. Wow, because now I feel like I'm missing out and like connection I'm missing out and like yeah, really, really big things, because you becoming more fascinating of those moments and people. Well, yeah yeah, instead of being angry or like frustrated with those kinds of things and wanting to skip over them to speak yeah.
ToliyThere's definitely a lot of fascination and a lot of interesting things within those. Yeah, right, but yeah, I would definitely like to yeah, because I see this again like practicing acceptance, it's not possible, like no one's going to get that. Like go practice acceptance Right. Like what you need to do is give yourself an opportunity.
EldarYeah.
ToliyTo think so that you can, because then you're pretty much guaranteed to practice acceptance. Yeah, you're not going to act that kind of way If you give yourself the opportunity to be aware and to think in the moment.
MikeYeah, how do you do that? Well, how do you become more aware and in the moment, like you probably need to change your value system.
ToliyThat's right.
EldarYou know I'm genuinely curious about certain things and I'm able to zoom in into them very specifically for myself. I enjoy the fucking moment.
ToliyYeah, and you see, for example, in that could be things that other people view as like you know that this guy's giving, let's say in like a sales perspective, irrelevant information. To me, it's like no, no, no, I want to. I want to hear all of this to me. I'm very sensitive to every single word, every sentence, how they're saying it, what tone are they saying it in? Are they asking a question? Are they making a statement? Are they do they have an assumption? Do they say something's expensive? Well, before we move on, I need to make sure that they don't feel this kind of way, because there's no point of continuing this conversation without getting the same page as that thing.
EldarThis is what I'm going to tell you what I had epiphany about before I had an epiphany when he was talking about this specific thing For some time now.
EldarYou know this right, talked about hey, we need to continue to expand the business and obviously hire more people, right, and sales obviously was one of them. And I was thinking on my head for a while now, what am I putting inside the description? Now, I know this is the thing. And what In the sales description for the job ad? Right, for more people, right, curiosity, yeah, you have to. So that's one thing that I'm going to be looking for.
MikeYes, you would have to look to see if that person is curious.
Genuine Curiosity and Humility's Importance
MikeIf they come in for an interview and they don't ask, you questions about oh, what do you do, how do you do it, why do you do it? You could show the person is not.
EldarThis is it. This is the quality for the sales. Yeah, that's a good one. It's a long-term play, but I like this part.
MikeI think it's a career for me. It works for me. Some people have and some people don't, I guess, or in certain areas, probably, because if you're coming over here, and I'm interviewing you.
EldarGeeks up, I need you to interview me. Yeah, that's what I'm going to put.
MikeWell, that kid who was here, we interviewed the hell out of him.
EldarThat's what I'm saying. If you can out interview me, because I'm curious as fuck why you're here. You know what I'm saying. I can really tell you what the fuck are you doing here. On the first day kind of thing, you shouldn't be here. But if they can out interview me, I have a gold mine. I have to strive for that. That was my opportunity. What do you think?
ToliyYeah, I mean, I think that's I mean again to me. I view all the poor qualities of someone that's probably bad at, for example, sales. Is thinking that you know it all, for example, or thinking that you got it?
EldarYeah, that you got it that you got it?
ToliyYeah, and I think we see that time and time and time again yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean again, like the core of sales is asking questions so that you can deliver your information. Good questions, yeah, good questions. And when you get better, sort of asking better questions where someone is not good is going to brush by those questions, not find them valuable. That's right. But someone said something's expensive. You're already moving on to something else. There's no conversation yet. Until you cannot, you use the drowning method. Yeah.
EldarYeah, shout out to Philip the drown out method. Yeah.
MikeBig T was an expert at that for a hot minute, the drowning effort.
EldarThe drowning method. Just what? Yeah.
MikeNo one Remember. When you said people what's the name? Said Like you were just talking nonstop.
EldarOh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, was everybody fall asleep, yeah. Is that?
Mikehumble Practice your humility. Now you know when you came from. You fucking ape.
EldarYou fucking ape. Oh shit, yeah, mike, that's the answer right there. You asked hey, how do you do it? I think, again, a genuine curiosity. Without it, I think you might be doomed, bro, yeah.
ToliyBecause I think the 100% factual part about being curious is that Is open-ended thing. Well, no, not even that Like we all talk about. How do you slow down? How do you do all these things? Oh yeah, what happens when you're?
Eldarcurious. Yeah, you have to slow down. You have to slow down why? Because you have to listen. You have to listen.
ToliyThere's no way around it.
EldarListening is the Uh-oh, hit me with a quote this is going to be the fucking intro. Do it, yeah, I mean I-. I know exactly what you're going to say.
ToliyYeah, you think so 100%. I mean I was going to say that listening, I think, is the core functionality, Like the core of curiosity.
EldarI thought you were going to hit it with. Listening is the portal to being in the moment.
ToliyWell, yeah.
EldarYeah, you understand.
ToliyYeah, because it's like, how do you get curious? You can't be talking. Yeah, you talk much less and you listen much more. You ask a question and then you sit there and you're like yeah and think about it Like if you ask somebody a question, you're on their time, which is also the most humbling thing possible. Oh shit, right. How often do you ask a question and you're like you want to go at a particular pace?
EldarAre you kidding me? I can give you scenarios of that. I have those scenarios. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, because if a person has a horse in a race for a very specific thing, right, and they want the answer to it, they can be very impatient and Well, that's what I'm saying.
ToliyYeah, but you'll never get the information. Yeah, you'll never get the right information. Yeah. Who are you to tell the person that's trying to tell you information? Yes, how fast. They should say what they should get to the point to when they should not. There you go.
EldarAnother thing about this. You have to make another quote about tying, listening to humility.
ToliyYeah, I mean it's very. Yeah, I mean it's very tied.
EldarBut make it nice.
ToliyMake it nice. Can you package it?
EldarPackage it. Package is your fucking shit for the fucking people.
ToliyYeah, I think that yeah, how do we package this right?
EldarListen, our audio engineer is going to hook it up. All right, all right yeah. I guess I just heard you correctly. You said when you listen, it's inevitable for you to be in the moment. Yes, and when you're in the moment of listening, you want somebody else's time?
ToliyYeah, no, but before that, if you-. How are we saying it in the beginning? If you are listening you transport yourself into the moment or the very present moment, and if you sense that you're not in the moment, it's because you're not being humble.
EldarYes, yes, you're not you don't have the humility to be able to be in the present moment, right in order to take in that information.
ToliyYeah, because you need to be at the mercy of someone else's Time, time and pace. Time and pace, which is humbling, automatically Correct, you know.
EldarYes, I think that's fucking a logistical, almost a logical answer to how to get into the moment.
ToliyYeah. So, as Conor McGregor said, if you are trying to find something out and someone's trying to teach you it and you say I'm a visual learner, shut your fucking mouth. Are you fucking stupid? Are you stupid? Yes, you're a visual learner. Yeah. You're an idiot asking a question that you want help on.
EldarHow are?
Toliyyou going to tell me how you're going to learn this?
ToliyHoly shit. You're bad at learning. What are you saying?
EldarHoly shit, Mike. How do you like it? How do you like them?
Mikeapples, Well they're good shot at Dennis though, oh shit, oh, bring him back bro he's retired man, that's true.
EldarHe's retired, that's true. That was good, totally. That was definitely good, mike. Retain this, mike. It's very important. It is through curiosity that you keep your opened, I guess, possibilities.
ToliyAnd you give yourself an opportunity to be you Whenever I would say probably me and you have a higher likelihood of what we call not being ourselves. And, for example, eldar, when we look back on it, we're like we all feel the same. That's not me, for example. You're out of character, right, but if you gave yourself, you were in character though. Well, yeah, but like.
MikeNot the character you want to be.
EldarYeah, that's not the character that's giving you happiness.
ToliyYeah, it's like when you want to be who you want to be like. Yeah, you have to listen, you have to be curious and your curiosity has to be, but it's also thinking again, if you're not genuine about your curiosity, then it's going to be very hard for you to listen. You won't be able, oh there you go.
EldarNow you added another term to the shit. Hey guys, that thing that you taught we were advising you last week about curiosity now has to be genuine, yeah.
MikeIt's not easy. What does?
Eldarthat mean you know what I mean when it comes to being genuinely curious about.
ToliyYeah, you probably have to have enough reasons as to why you need to learn what you need to learn.
MikeYeah, you have to actually learn the stuff that you actually want, not what you think society wants or other people, that's why?
EldarRight, I think the example of sports doesn't play here. Because those individuals didn't retain anything. They fucking thought that they learned. Because they don't have the real ability to be able to then translate that into their everyday life. But the motherfuckers that do able to translate this fucking past their lives. You can see them that they're living happier lives. It's pretty clear. So, yo, martin Luther King might have been a fraud. Yeah, what, I'm always getting in trouble. I told you this. I think that's why the motherfuckers, sacroities, got the fucking to charge that he got from the state. You corrupting the youth. You are bad. Listen, I can give you. Probably, maybe I can come up with an example where individuals that were about that life were about that life. Maybe Gandhi it was about that life.
MikeThere's no like what you're saying.
EldarWatch that movie, gandhi, bro you did watch it.
ToliyI did watch it. It was about that life.
EldarYeah, he was not willing to eat. No, not only eat, but like he also translated that into his relationship. You remember those scenes.
ToliyNot that I probably have three watched.
EldarWe watched those scenes and when his wife is like yo, let's put a pause on this, he said yo, sit down. He fucking broke it down to her, he scolded her, he was ready to be done, she followed.
MikeYeah, you're saying serious things, listen.
EldarNo you said the shit. No, you're saying this.
MikeNot accusations, but what you're saying is you can't if you discover philosophy right.
EldarThrough the craft or the field that you're in. It's inevitable.
MikeYou're inevitable. You're going to either forever. Forever, yes, so you reach that. It's anywhere in your life, yeah, or the gig is out.
EldarNot that you're, you're a fraud.
MikeBut if you decide you want to go on the journey of the philosophy route, you have to apply it everywhere in your life, for the rest of your life.
ToliyBut does Mike have this antenna sticking out of his head, right?
Eldarnow You're right, you're right and at the end of the day, it's just like we just broke everything down right. There are certain cases and there are times where, in certain fields in our life, we don't get it right and there's a reason why we don't really get it right is because we're not about our life, Because if we really know something, ultimately it ought to touch everything in all parts of our lives. That's what I'm saying, like you can't, but, mike, I think that still, that's part of being human, and that we're striving towards that and we should get there, oh yeah.
EldarI mean, if you believe this, yeah this should not discount the efforts of MLK right, martin Luther King. It should not discount those efforts. It should not discount them. And again, I think I took a shot of OSHO before too the same way. They're like look, you know what I mean the reason, the outcomes became the outcomes. You know what I mean. And like this doesn't mean that you're enlightened. I think enlightened is a hard, great judge against. Like I said, you know what I mean. If you're really enlightened, you shouldn't have had the outcomes that he did have, you know, in the process that he did go through. You know what I mean, but nonetheless he probably did a lot of good things. I didn't study him to really know. You could know a lot of not being enlightened.
MikeIn a way, everybody's a fraud, right? Because if you're not enlightened, you're a fraud. If you're practicing philosophy and you're fucking up, you're a fraud, and that's a good title. And that's a good, humble title to give everybody, because we all are working in progress in different areas of our lives, because today you're not a dad, next month you're a dad.
ToliyBut it's not like the Bible or just religion, right, like man is sinners, right, yeah, all people are sinners.
MikeI just don't know what context they have it in them.
EldarBut you might not agree with the context that they put it in.
ToliyYeah, but I think the concept there is correct is that we all again, unless you're enlightened, you're going to do some wrong.
EldarThe thing is again are you a sinner if you're ignorant? No, socrates doesn't think so. No, yeah. He says no one knowingly does wrong. Explain that no one knowingly does wrong. Does that exalt you from responsibility?
MikeIt's not going to stop you from getting locked up, but yeah, In society sure.
EldarIn society, sure, but in the long, but at the end of the day, right Thing. Hey, you didn't know any better. Yeah. You thought this was the best thing and you took that route. Oh, it happens to be wrong.
MikeAbsolutely. I think if you're on the journey of, you know, self-discovery, self-improvement, you're going to be in jail all the time. You know, yeah, in your own jail. In your own jail, because this is the natural process of it yeah. You know like we're learning and we're progressing. Yeah, that's right. You know in different areas at different times. You know, you never know what you're going to unpack you won't know. You're going to unpack it, you know.
MikeYou could be under the wrong impression for 30, 40, 50, 70 years of your life. What do you mean? A couple of lifetimes. Yeah well, if you believe in that, if you believe in that, then it could be a couple of lifetimes. Yeah for sure. Whatever it takes, I think yeah.
EldarSo what's the conclusion, mike? What's the conclusion? Are you saying anything or not?
ToliyAnd also, I remember Mike had two points. I was only answering one. What was the second point? Wow, no, no, I remember there was two, there was two and they all remember.
MikeThe second one was yeah, I remember, I can't remember. It's been a while we got away off topic.
EldarYeah, we definitely did. I mean, I think we I mean, look, if you look at it from a Right now, maybe it's hard to kind of wrap it all together, but I think, if you look at it, zoom out a little bit. I think it makes sense. That makes perfect sense. You know, again, curiosity be curious, don't make. Try not to stay away from making statements about the world, about reality, right, about yourself, about others. Right.
EldarYou probably will be in good shape,
The Role of Teaching and Curiosity
Eldarright. And the good question I totally pose is like hey, hey, hey, hey, you know what I mean. How do you genuinely become curious, right? Like, how do you actually be really interested in the things that you're interested in? You know what I mean? In order for it to become almost a second nature, natural flow of like hey, hey, hey, you know, I don't know what I bought in, but I bought in. I'm not, I'm just doing it, I'm just living in now. I have no choice in the matter, I don't think anymore.
MikeYeah, and that's probably that's the question that I was asking. Essentially is like how do you get onto the highway? You know at the right place, that you're going the right way in the right direction. Is there or is there a place? Yeah, is there a right entrance.
ToliyDo you think that there's any shadows? Just thinking about it? Again, I have no clue if this is the actual reality, obviously, or maybe it is. Is it possible? When it comes to genuine curiosity, right, is it a matter of you being curious and interested about a particular subject and maybe have some unexplainable, maybe like, let's say, feelings towards it and it develops into a very heightened or what we would call genuine state, when you Like. It's almost like a finding of the soul's process, when you find the right teacher that like the key fits yeah, and then like, it's kind of like, if you think of Peaceful Warrior, for example.
EldarMovie.
ToliyYeah, movie right. Like Dan Milman in that movie right. Like he could have just been like you know, your typical whatever, let's say like Jack or whatever, and maybe he had some curiosity or maybe some things. But he met the right person that could challenge him in a very particular stern way that worked well for him that he was looking for this whole life.
MikeWell, I think it's the right person, but I think also is the right time, right, if you're. I think the way that at least in the movie was portrayed, he was suffering, right, he couldn't sleep at night. He had this, you know, on paper perfect life, like he self-described as well, but he wasn't sleeping at night. So I think it's you know, the elder I think uses it's always like are you happy or are you suffering? Those are two good gauges to say like, hey, what's going on with you? And I think, because that Milman was suffering, he was open to be here because he was facing problems. You know, he was going through a shitty situation and he couldn't sleep and he was stressed out. I didn't know what to do. So I think Sack appeared, you know whoever Sack was, in the right time for him to be open to that. But I wonder if it was any random other teacher, it would have worked.
EldarYou asking the chicken or the egg question bro. Yeah, I don't know.
MikeThat's what I just thought about. Yeah, if you're open to learn, can you learn you know from anybody.
EldarI would not be the way I am without you guys, and I don't think you will be the way you are without me. I think it's a symbiotic relationship with those two things yeah, what comes first and what influences the other. That's up to the fucking universe.
MikeThey're talking about next level things.
EldarYeah, yeah, am I the way I am because of the way you are and vice versa? And I think, to some degree, I believe, that the world is the way it is because of the way you are. No, yeah, the application of how it all turns out. Who's empowered.
MikeI think that ties to something you said earlier is I think that's the way it's supposed to be, I think it's supposed to be. We have a symbiotic thing where we need each other to help each other to humility bounce the other out you know things like that.
EldarYeah, I think we do. I think it's created unbelievably perfect.
MikeIf you tap into it, it's unbelievably perfect yeah.
EldarIf you come to realize a little bit. Yeah, it's unbelievably perfect. You know what I'm saying, so like you have to admire that.
MikeI think the admiration can lead to a curiosity as well, a genuine one.
EldarIt could. It comes to with a level of humility Like oh shit. This small fuck is perfect. And what are we talking about? We're talking about God, the all knowing, all good Right, oh, perfect. Right. The admiration to what this fucking thing and the way it's structured to be fitting the way.
MikeIt's fitting Well, the way I, when you said the way I, you know, thought about it. I tied it back into curiosity because you realize that every like we're meant right To learn from each other people individually, in general as well, yeah, we're meant, like, to help each other to learn from each other. And if you come in right like, with that acceptance and that curiosity mindset, you kind of you know, you can come in and be like, hey, I don't know this person, but I'm curious to hear what they have to say. And you open to hear it. And I think you know, without jumping to a conclusion or anything, you can, yeah, understand that everybody has something to offer. Everybody knows something that we might not know, something good you know that they can help to share with us or teach us, you know, in our time, but we always looking for that field, where, in that field, in the specific field that they're good at.
EldarYou know what I'm saying? Because a lot of times, a lot of the people, I think they talk about fields most of the time right, Mm-hmm, they come to you and they say, oh, what do you do for work? Mm-hmm, oh, I do this. Okay, I'm interested how much money you make. Mm-hmm, oh, wow, mm-hmm, you know tell me more.
EldarMm-hmm, you know that's a field, right, yeah, basketball. I'm going to play basketball right now. You know People say hi to me that I've never seen before Mm-hmm, that I don't remember saying hi to Mm-hmm Because I'm good at it. Maybe right, but now I'm naturally have a gravity towards those individuals and those individuals have gravity towards me to teach them, or they are more learned from me and stuff like that To help them be better. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean. So I think it's that process. That's very.
MikeThat relationship is very interesting.
EldarYes, it is very interesting.
MikeEspecially that we described it where you don't even know the people yeah, but they look to you as like, hey, I can learn something from him, I can become better yeah, which I think is a huge thing. You know, that's a good example. That made sense a lot.
EldarYou know, like I've never seen myself as a basketball teacher, mm-hmm, let's just say Mm-hmm. You know what I mean. I'm not a basketball teacher, I'm a basketball player. Yeah, I've associated myself for all this time as a basketball player. Yeah, but I know, and I feel the looks that I do from the individuals that, like you know, tell me something that I need to be doing. Mm-hmm, I feel that Mm-hmm, and that's a teaching appointment that I'm getting. Mm-hmm.
EldarIt's not a basketball player. I'm a basketball player, mm-hmm. I know what to do. I know why I do it, how to do it. I enjoy doing it. Mm-hmm, I don't know what the fuck to do how to teach basketball.
ToliyBut you know, we know it's funny Mm-hmm. And in, for example, professional basketball, like at the high college level or MBA level, lots of times they say that like the best point cards become the best coaches. Oh really, yeah, mm-hmm, like Jason Kidd was a really good point card.
EldarIs that statistically proven? What Is that statistically proven? I?
Toliydon't know if it's, I don't know if it's statistically proven, but people, like, as he was getting older, were like, oh, he's definitely going to be a good coach. Oh, okay, or like Steve Nash, or like Steve Kerr, even though they might have not known at that time. Mark Jackson, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
EldarYou know Okay.
ToliyLike they, they, they say that like there are certain qualities of being a point guard, Like specific that position that like a center doesn't have. And what are we talking about? Like floor awareness, yeah. Knowing what's going on, making the right play yeah, those are all transferable things that are important in coaching. Yeah, so you have to see what's going on.
EldarYou multitasking Know?
Toliyhow to use players. Yeah, the point guard knows where to hit who. Yeah, at the time.
EldarAt the right time. Yeah, exactly.
ToliySo I'm not. I'm not saying all like in general, like I don't know if Russell Westbrook is going to be a good coach, Probably not Because he wasn't a very good point guard. It wasn't a very good point guard.
EldarYeah.
ToliySo, like they'll often say that someone who's really good, yeah, all those skills could translate towards that role. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, like you don't usually see, like centers you're not going to see. Like Kevin Garnett, yeah. Or like Shaq, like they're not going to be a good coach. They see a team from a different perspective.
EldarThey see a different perspective. Yeah, they look for maybe within. Well, though, jason Kidd looks from without. Yeah, yeah.
ToliyAnd it's also like, if you're good, a lot of times it's an unselfish position. Right, you're trying to get others to be better, to be better.
ToliyOthers to be in the spotlight, stuff like that. Yeah, lots of times. That's how coaching is too Mm-hmm Right. Coaches when teams are good, all the players get all the credit. When teams are bad, the coaches get all the blame. Really, that's how it works. Oh, okay, like right now the Bucks hired a new coach. They have Lillard, yanis, stuff like that. If stuff doesn't work out there, no one's going to fire Lillard and Yanis. Yeah.
ToliyThey're going to fire the coach, coach, you can't figure it out how to make it work. But when they're doing well, they're going to be like oh, you got a Hall of Fame player. Yeah Right, yes, you got this right. People talk shit about Phil Jackson.
EldarOh, no, no, no. You had Kobe, you had Jordan. Those are cash, bro. They don't understand chemistry bro.
ToliyWell, yeah, those are cash. Yeah, yeah, they're going to be like oh, he had Jordan and Pippin and Kobe and Shaq. He had only the best players. That's why he won those titles.
EldarNo, no, no. It's a huge effort to get him. Well, that's what I'm saying.
ToliyWhen you're bad, all the blame goes to the coach always. That's why it's a very like, almost like selfless, like roll Right.
EldarYeah, that is interesting. So what are we saying? Are we saying anything? Are we making any conclusions here? Mike extract something from this, bro. We said a lot.
MikeWe extracted that we're not making conclusions. I think. Even when you're asking for conclusions that is a good point.
ToliyThat's a conclusion on the nonconclusion thing, yeah, that we should not make conclusions yeah, so it's really nothing.
MikeI didn't say anything.
EldarYou said a lot. Yeah, no, this is huge. Yeah, if you took this and make this your Bible, you understand? Oh no, no, no he doesn't get it right.
ToliyNo, he doesn't get any he's an A form.
EldarHe's an A form. Hey, if you do this, you go to heaven. You know what I said in Boris voice, though I don't know yeah, like a retard, yeah, no, like I said, like I think that making, not making conclusions and keeping things open ended right, which then allows you to be curious, which then allows you to be humble, which then allows you to get knowledge, which then allows you to be free of suffering, is the path to fucking victory here.
MikeYeah. So I was just thinking about what I was telling you earlier today, about the thing like I went to lunch and I set the intention to be aware of one thing, but then the other thing snuck in from behind me. That thing is here or no, that thing is here. Yeah, that thing is here.
MikeThat thing might be sharing the same couch with you. So I think the curiosity, maybe in a way, it's tied like hey, maybe the intention. Like hey, I'm curious. What's going to happen here? Let me be more aware. Yeah, whereas like hey, I know this is going to happen, it prevented me from also seeing the full picture. Yes, I was only able to see a little portion of it. Yes, and I think that might be interesting too. That is interesting.
ToliyNow you have to commingle the two.
Forgetting a Thought During a Conversation
ToliyYeah, are you going to share what happened?
MikeYeah, oh no, it wasn't actually an example, it happened a few weeks ago. Yeah, yeah, I don't remember where it started. Yeah.
EldarThat you understand his curiosity from before. Look here oh yeah, my bad, I was reading that wrong. Yeah, good point. Right, you're a point. Yeah, again, you were operating out of like yeah, I got this.
MikeI was under one impression. Yeah, you know, but it's again, it's telling me like hey, so how about this?
EldarHow about this? Oh shit, this might be crazy. For next week, if you remember this Okay. I mean, yeah, it is, that's the answer. Okay, crazy.
ToliyAre you going to fucking fill me in or are you just fucking like leave?
Eldarme here with fucking the balls. Yeah, hold on one second. I forgot it, bro, wow.
ToliyCan you film me in on the situation?
EldarI forgot the fucking thing. It was fucking so good Really. Mike say it again Say the shit again and get what you're saying I was tying the example of what example?
MikeThe example that me and other know, what example Of you guys going to lunch together. Me and you went to lunch together. Yeah, you know, you fucker, today, yesterday, okay, and I was coming in there with one intention, yeah, to be aware of one thing. Oh, my God, you know, and because I was concentrated on that thing, I got him hugged by another thing and I thought that was very funny. So what were you concentrating?
Eldaron. It was beats. You liked these.
MikeYou understand a little appreciation of the beats right yeah, why don't you drag?
Eldarit out a little bit, like he usually fucking does. You want to like lead on to it like a nice build up.
ToliyYeah, tell me what you ate last week and the week before Something to lean, yeah, so tell them, tell them Go ahead.
MikeNo, I was coming in there, right yeah, to be aware of my interaction with you, of what Of like, to not overshare, to not get myself in trouble, okay yeah, while I'm interacting with you, right yeah, you know, and I came in with that, I was focusing on that. This is gonna be crazy, this is gonna be like yo, this is retarded. But I came in there, I had a pizza. It was wild If I came in there and I got ham hugged by the food. You ham hugged me into eating pizza, into eating the pizza.
MikeEating more than I wanted. Eating more than I wanted yeah. So, like you know, I'm making the awareness to be conscious of how I'm eating and what I'm eating, but because I was so concentrated on one thing, I wasn't able to focus on the other thing.
EldarIt was so sick when he presented it, it was so good. Do you understand what you fucking did? You fuckhead?
ToliyWhat do you mean? I made him do exactly what he wanted.
EldarHe doesn't want to do any of this. You see, he's your.
MikeAchilles, heel he knows which buttons to press. He does. Yeah, no, he's just pressing his own buttons, yeah.
EldarHe's just reflecting on you. That's what he thinks.
ToliyAgain, he thinks that he's an intersex schoolgirl Squirrel, squirrel, yeah, yeah, yeah.
MikeOh, I could definitely eat, for sure. You had half a pie, I had half a pie.
EldarAre you serious, yeah?
ToliyFuck shit.
EldarI'm gonna throw one more variable at it.
ToliyHe's talking blaming me Keet more of the pizza than I did. That's what he said. Yeah, because of you. Because of you Again, you could blame whatever external variables you want.
MikeYeah.
ToliyRight, I don't know how many, I think it was six slices in the pie. Wow, I had two, he had four. No, I had two, he had two. And afterwards he took off all the toppings, off the last two with the cheese, and ate them all and left it just fucking bright. That's disgusting.
EldarAnd then you blame it on me. You ate more than me.
MikeYeah, I just picture this Because of you, though.
Toliythat's what happened Sure because of me.
EldarYeah, no, he tied that very well together.
MikeBut regardless of how it is.
ToliyAgain, it's just how you prefer to look at things.
MikeThat's all. It is Sure. In this example you can say that, but I'm saying in general, when you come in there with one thing, you're trying to be kind of conscious of one thing, you don't see the other things are happening. That's the same thing. You're talking about a point guard. A point guard, he can see multiple angles, all different things happening at once, five different players on one team, five different players in the other team. Right, who's going where? Who's going there? He's able to see all these things and make certain decisions, whereas I was playing one by myself against five. You're a center bro.
MikeI was a center bro. I had no fucking ability to pass or nothing. I could just barely do a layup yeah.
EldarAnd rebound.
MikeAnd there's people shooting threes on your head.
EldarThat's the point, not being able to see the full picture.
MikeHe said you overwhelmed him with pizza, bro.
ToliyHe's an idiot. He's like this, overwhelmed, he went for the pizza. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, what was it? Someone went in to do a particular like mental exercise and left a fat ass yeah.
EldarYeah.
MikeThat's so funny. Yeah, holy shit. Yeah, it's humbling 100%. Yeah, you know.
EldarWhen you first said, I was like holy shit, that was very funny that was funny.
MikeYeah, yeah, all right, so did you remember?
Eldarwhere your epiphany was, bro. The epiphany was enlightening and I think and then now I got another different epiphany that the aligning parts that we say out loud right. The white parts.
EldarThe enlightening words that we say out loud, right, and if understood by many within that moment and make you feel a certain type of way about it. Right, if there's truth behind it, if it's universal and it's felt within those souls, right Of individuals, in the proper way, that it does something good good, let's just say beneficial is almost an indicator that you are using proper logic in order to explain reality for what it is. Because if each soul carries within itself truth of the world, of the universe, of everything, and the things that we say out loud resonate with those souls, it is an indication, right, that that what you're saying is true.
ToliyThis or no, I think, like felt, truth and guarantees have an impact.
EldarYeah, yeah, guaranteed to have an impact. That's what I thought of. This was still not that. This was the bottom of that, of the thought you forgot. Yeah, the thought that I forgot about, yeah.
ToliyWhich you still don't remember.
EldarI don't remember it. It was as bright as it could be, and then it was gone In regards to what, though, like what?
Curiosity, Humility, and Happiness
EldarType this topic that we're talking about. That I had a really good thought that I wanted to share, to see the whole picture and extract the conclusion off of it.
MikeIt was tied with curiosity, yes. Humility, yes, okay.
EldarYes, curiosity and humility is almost the gateway to heaven, like that kind of statement. You know what I'm saying, that it is almost everlasting. Well, yeah, because everlasting thing to happiness like bliss not stop. I guess it's you understand like this is like I was going, really like there.
MikeIf you're operating out of curiosity, right Versus operating out of like you come in with a preconceived notion or some kind of? Like you know, attachment to an idea or an outcome. If you're curious, can you? If you're curious and you stay curious, can you? I feel like that's like almost like the outcome. Right, I was like I don't know. Is it like hard to fail here?
EldarNo, you cannot fail. That's what I'm saying.
MikeYou're not going to be upset because you're coming in there curious and you don't know what to expect If you, like you said, genuine curiosity is tied to humility.
Eldaryou know what I'm saying. That is happiness. This is what I'm trying to connect to. I'm trying to find the right words and that's why I'm trying to also. Then I went to that. I was trying to find the right words to be able to say it in such a way that it made sense.
MikeI understand what you're saying, yeah. But I think you understand my gist, I think, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm understanding it, just by can't put it together like, yeah, I was trying to make a conclusion of everything that we try to say package it and make it a thing. Yeah, Hmm, the the curiosity leads to something very, very special yes, If you, if you yes if you genuinely curious if you comment on all the directions, if you really want to know because you don't know.
EldarNot, it's not one of those like grimy things. You know where you're like. Yeah, like just tell me, just tell me like I just want to get to a place where I want to get to. You know what I mean. It's okay, there you go. It's an open ended curiosity.
MikeOpen ended yeah.
EldarSo the link is okay tell me so I can know more and ask more questions afterwards, versus tell me so. I can stop right there. Yes, that that that that chain is leads to enlightenment and continuation of happiness. Yes, the difference. Does that understood, mm-hmm? Okay, yeah, that's what I wanted to say. Is that a very big difference?
MikeOh yeah, it's huge.
EldarYou understand.
ToliyYeah Well, one way you're never going to know.
EldarYou're never going to know, but you keep wanting, so it's an ongoing pursuit of knowledge. Yeah.
ToliyIt's because one one, one way, you have the idea of what no looks like. The other way just wants to find out.
EldarYeah. You know, and it doesn't know it doesn't know.
ToliyYeah, like, inherently, the other way, it like knows and it just like, like, yeah, it feels like it knows. So it's just like just tell me this, that's it.
EldarAnd that's right, that's right, it's fake.
ToliyThat's what it wants to find out. Yeah, which yeah is a forever, and I think that's why the kids have what they have.
EldarMm-hmm, right, what do they have? What time is it? When is it when the kid's like yo Mom, why is this? Why is that the questioning phase?
Mikeright.
EldarLet me Google it If you guys don't know. Mm-hmm, right, kids have a very specific time in their lives and when they go through this phase questioning phase and kids, genuine curiosity Todd was in it. Look what they said, right, genuine curiosity. Toddlers are innately and unendingly curious about the world and want to better understand the things that they see, hear and do. The constant stream of questions is just a step towards the toddler learning. And your questioning kid really just wants to learn. You see that, right, he just constantly wants to learn more and more and more and more about the world and the reality that he's experiencing. So he's gonna have genuine curiosity because he actually doesn't know. There's no ego to know.
MikeNo ego to know that's good.
EldarThe stages from ages from two to seven years old. Pretending and asking questions occurs during the pre-operational stage of development according to the PJ's model, the stages from the ages of two to seven years old. Let's see. And what again? What do we know about happiness right? Or the clues that we've gotten through thinking? Oh, you know, kids are the happiest right when you have no responsibilities, when you're just genuinely curious and going on adventures. Mm-hmm you want them to know. Mm-hmm.
EldarAnd are we not most happiest when we feel like we're kids right now by having lots of fun and doing shit? That's, let's just say, it's not even defined for you to do during the stage of your life, like gaming at 40 years old? What Are you crazy? You have no responsibilities. We're going back to gaming. Why? Because that game provides a genuine curiosity of things it's never ending flow of. I want to know. So do you guys say something? No, no, so what was my question?
MikeWell, you had another question. You were just saying kids with curiosity and a lot of happiness.
EldarYeah, when we associate ourselves with that, hey, we got to go back to being kids. You know what I mean. And then when we're in relationships, we become mushy, the kids you know, with dogs we create what Baby sounds. Right.
EldarWith babies. We create baby sounds. We have that inside of us. That is probably yearning to go back. For what? The reason why we want to go back is because that's where the fucking shit is. That's where the fucking, the true, genuine happiness is Years they say years two to seven. Right, when you're genuinely curious and want to actually find out, without ego, without any perceived conclusions or a horse in the race. You just want to know. I got to read Aristotle. I want to see what he said about happiness. He had a whole big thing and I'll have a good reason as to why. I wonder if he ties this to it. I wonder how he ties curiosity to happiness.
ToliyAristotle was a student of Plato.
EldarYeah, and Plato was a student of Socrates, so I got to. I never wrote?
ToliyAnd who was Socrates' student of Nobody.
EldarSocrates was appointed by the oracle as the wisest man in Athens at the time.
ToliyWho was the oracle?
EldarThe oracle was like a the one I'd bend it. Yeah, so you go to this person right and she's like the witch, yeah yeah, yeah. The local witch or whatever in the good sense, right when she's like under this trance and she kind of speaks in riddles and all this other shit, but you know says the future and all this other stuff.
ToliyIs that what Tommy is now?
EldarIs he an oracle?
ToliyHe speaks in riddles. He just speaks in riddles, but he doesn't predict the future.
EldarBut she kind of like calls it for what it is. Let's just say, yeah, the oracle appointed or predicted or whatever you want to say that Socrates was the wisest man in Athens at the time and he's like wait what? So you went and tried to find out.
MikeSo his curiosity.
EldarHis curiosity for wanting to find out like why am I?
Mikethe person. No, I'm saying is curiosity. I know that I know nothing.
EldarNo, that's a statement, but is that a reflection of?
Mikecuriosity. It's a key to unlocking the ignorance Like key to unlocking the ignorance You're showing, that you're very curious.
EldarThat's your key. No, no, no, that's just showing that. Not that you necessarily curious, but you're acknowledging the fact it's given you an opportunity to be curious that's giving you like a, like you know, doesn't mean that you're going to be able to practice it in all facets of your life.
MikeBut I'm saying with the way he used it. I wonder if he knew about the curiosity.
EldarHe fucking knew it. He knew something bro.
ToliyYeah, she probably appointed him because she felt that he was the most curious person Possibly. Yeah.
EldarPossibly.
MikeHe did ask very good questions always.
EldarWell, yeah, he then he asked you almost like he's like yo. What's going on here, like why, why this, why that?
MikeShe knew that he was, he was, she would send them on his kind of journey. He was a pest.
EldarYeah, he was a pest. He was known to be a pest, yeah, and I was when I was reading his text I remember in philosophy class, and then I was reflecting on it, like after the philosophy class, after Paul X team was explaining all the shit to me, I would drive back and turn. Epiphanies will come to me. I was like holy shit, I couldn't believe this, I couldn't believe this. And one stuck with me when he said the immortality of the soul. I realized like in the moment of my reflection, one time I was like yo, anybody could be Socrates.
MikeYou know he might be in his room.
EldarHe might be, but probably not, not yet. Not Arch, yeah, he, I don't know. Maybe possibly no. I'm not sure if he would suffer from ear infections.
MikeThat's true, you know yeah.
EldarYeah, so it was very interesting to me to think that, taking a spot at him, what he understood, what he understood in order to be able to reincarnate himself, right, immortality of the soul through knowledge, right, and that was fascinating to me. So, so, mike, make some conclusion or something.
MikeI can't make conclusions.
EldarYou can't make conclusions because of what you learned apparently.
MikeBut I will still make conclusions, but I can't make them anymore.
EldarOkay, that's a little getaway thing. You like getaway cars Like, just in case I can just slip away through this crack.
MikeNo, I think that's realistic. I mean, I'm not saying like I'm gonna give up and not gonna try it. I'm gonna make my best effort not to make conclusions, but also know I'm gonna slip up for sure.
EldarThat's that thing, that's honest, and that's that thing that's self love. Acceptance of that Totally. Say something, bro. This whole time you said absolutely nothing. You know. You rambled, fucking away, confusing the fuck out of us, making me forget my statement.
ToliyHow did I make you forget your statement?
EldarYou probably did. You just looked at him and you forgot oh shit. He said he had to put the stare on me.
ToliyYeah, yeah, I would say that, like everything we spoke about leads me to, like you know, trying to have a stronger desire, trying to have a. I'm gonna go full. Oh shit, full handheld. I like that. Buddies that are. Yeah.
ToliyYeah, yeah, I feel like everything we spoke about leads me to Desiring, I guess, to. I guess. I try to try to pay it, to pay more attention in each moment and get to a place where I can put more and more value on each moment and not allow myself to be ignorant and try to skip over things, or stuff like that.
EldarSo would this be an example of you being too hard on yourself, cause like that's a fucking sick task, which you just said, or a conclusion, or maybe a wish?
MikeWell, no, I was saying that one thing that came to my mind, which I forgot, obviously because. But what'd you say?
EldarLike what the hell is that.
ToliyYou fucking interrupted us. Yeah, you interrupt something, yeah, and then forget all you want to say.
MikeI'll remember it, just say it one more time.
EldarNo, don't say nothing. I'm not gonna say no, let him suffer now.
MikeYeah, and this fucking shit. Oh fine, you were being too hard on yourself, he's trying to replicate this bitch Fuck happened.
ToliyI was gonna make some shit up.
EldarThere was no way.
ToliyYeah, there's no way. We're getting that thought out there. No way, right no?
Eldarway I would not give him no clue.
ToliyLook at him. Look at him. He's eating up right now. He's like a little teapot Short and stout.
EldarMike, forget about it. You got to let go of this, no.
ToliyHe's trying to squeeze his one out. He is.
EldarHe's bad, holy shit. All right guys, totally.
MikeWhat the? Fuck were you saying what the fuck.
ToliyI've never seen someone interrupt somebody to say Dude to say I forgot what I was gonna say what the hell, this is a sick as fuck joke bro. Holy shit.
EldarThat was pretty funny. What? What? Can't get your tongue? Yeah. He said yeah, can't get your tongue, totally Can't get your tongue. No, no, yeah, no, no, I'm not saying that like I'm always he's about to rub your watch. Look at him, he's constantly-. Now, when he thinks about it, he can't say it now right.
ToliyNo, no, no, no, no, no, no. When he thinks about it, he can't say it now, right, yo Imagine.
EldarIt's gonna be like what's his name? That movie Got Almighty or what, what you care? Bruce Almighty, yeah, yeah, yeah, you wanna remember he wanted to talk and he can't yeah. Yeah, it's like yo, what the fuck. Yeah, he's gonna be like that right now. Yeah, like yeah.
MikeHe knows the thought, but he's saying gibberish yeah. He's sick.
EldarYeah, that would be sick. Yeah, I can't, I can't.
ToliyYeah, yeah, no, no, I definitely don't think I can live up to doing that all the way Are you being heartiest on yourself here.
Determining Importance of Personal Motivations
EldarWell, no, by setting yourself up to that Like saying, hey, I wish I could do this, no.
ToliyNo, I'm saying that, like I definitely have a desire to try to capture more, more, more moments so that I have less moments of being an ape, okay, fine. Fine.
MikeYeah, I remembered it, but it doesn't sound as good anymore. Okay, so my thought was what questions? Do you need to ask, like he's saying he's making a statement, right, yeah, like what questions do you need to ask yourself to see if you really are about like that life, before you can make that statement, like before you can say like, hey, I know. I mean, like we're gonna say like, hey, I'm gonna fucking be more curious.
MikeYeah, how do you know that you, like I actually want to do this? And like, why, if you're convinced, convinced of it, like how do you know this is actually something that you can do and this is something that's very important to do, well.
ToliyWell, I think, I guess in my case, because I know what happens when when I'm not, you know.
EldarYeah, he already has tested this on himself, probably plenty of times to know that like look if I skip the moment, I know what the after effects are.
ToliyI know what happens, like I know.
MikeI feel like do you have good enough reasons, then, to execute this? That's, that's the question. Do you have? Good enough reasons that you actually gonna do this.
ToliyThat's, that's what I was going to ask, I'm already, I'm already doing it.
EldarOkay, by bringing awareness. I think he is doing it. I think he is doing it.
MikeYeah, I'm not only saying to you in general, but I'm saying in the general thing when people make these kind of statements, make statements or anything, yeah, I think it's important to ask yourself do you have good enough reasons to do the things you're going to do, or say the things you're going to do? I mean, do the things you're going to. You're saying Uh huh, yeah, you know, I think that can help you to kind of get to that's why I'm saying that.
EldarThat's why I asked the question that I asked Mike. I said, hey, are you being too hard on yourself here? Because you know, obviously it'd be nice to always be able to control the moments and be in the moment and feel the moment, ask all the good questions, be curious and all that stuff and learn, you know. But it's a hard task. That's why I'm asking him whether or not he's being a little bit unfair to himself, because I think he tends to be a lot of times setting himself for a lot of tough tasks. Right, and I think it ties to your question as to like, how do you actually know that you're going to do that?
MikeYeah, like do you have enough of a good reason to be those hard on yourself? Because if you actually examine it, you don't have a like virtuously speaking you don't have a backbone. No, I'm not saying that, but I do agree with that. Okay, but it's like uh, yeah, you can't even set up for for half an hour you interrupted somebody to say nothing.
MikeYeah, oh by the way, yeah, yeah. So I think that's important, like that question, like, uh, or that statement, whatever how you want to phrase it if you have the good enough reasons. Because if you say yes, then what do you like? I guess, what do you challenge you? Those reasons up against is the truth. Because now, if you're saying, like, if you're being too hard on yourself, are you being kind to yourself, being patient with yourself or being realistic? That's, if you're saying, if you're saying no to those, then you don't have a good enough reason, because should your reasons not be a ruling truth If you'd like to succeed and do it the right way? Yeah.
MikeThat's what came to mind Totally.
ToliyWell, yeah, I mean, I think my, my reasons are and I feel like, um, this is something that I feel like I have been working on for a long time, but yeah, I just want to continue, basically, uh, to do, and I definitely think I do have good reasons because I think, from a logical perspective, um, I don't think they can be disproved because they do align with the truth you know.
MikeSo if you have the good reasons, then and and you thoroughly like, went to the core of understanding those reasons then shooting the action to follow would be much simpler.
Action vs. Inaction
MikeThat's a Mike you asking another good question, bro.
EldarYou almost saying like hey, isn't it obvious, bro? Yeah.
ToliySo, so what is what I'm saying?
MikeThat's that's. My challenge is like hey, if you research this enough, you know the reasons, you know why you should be doing this to the core. How about this? You went deep as possible, Sure.
EldarI'll give you the thing how about? We'll talk about pain, and we're going to have to talk about pain? Sure, is the pain to do something about it greater or less than the pain of not doing something about it that you've been doing for a while?
MikeYeah, that's interesting.
EldarWho's perceiving it Right In the moment? Yeah, my question was posed to individuals who are thinking right. Who should say, no, it's not bro. Development is a good thing. It's not painful.
MikeBut then I guess, when the ego looks at it but what you're saying then is also like, that person who's making that statement is, in a way, egotistical because he doesn't have an idea of what that scope really entails. That's right. And he's making the statement out of blind ignorance or whatever it could be. You know it could. It doesn't have to be to your scenario. I'm just saying in a general thing, that's what I'm thinking about. Therefore, there's a lack of action?
ToliyWell, it would need to be looked at in a case by case.
MikeYeah, yeah and again those kind of statements. They also take away the curiosity because you already think you know. So it's like you don't have enough reasons and your reasons might not be good enough. Therefore, you can't act and you're already convinced that you know everything, yeah, and you're not curious about finding out. So I think it's like a double fuck here.
EldarYeah.
MikeI think it's like you know, that's why people don't act, maybe in certain scenarios, because they probably don't have enough good enough reasons and, like you said, the pain is too hard.
EldarThat's a huge one.
MikeThe pain is huge. You'll have to talk about that. Yeah, that's huge, yeah.
EldarWhat else, if not pain? Right, if you said, hey, the easiest path to victory is to go play video games what I love, video games, of course. Got it done. Go change the floor and change the tile. Break this, we do it. Make sure everything's straight. Wait, what Not doing that it's for the greater good? I'm not sure you go against that challenge of you thinking that it might be more painful, even though it is humbling, it is for the greater good. Yeah.
EldarIt's for development and everything else. Yeah, that's why I think we go back to Toli's maybe first or second episodes from here Number one, number two, number three probably where he said that the giver is the taker and the taker is actually the giver. A lot of people don't understand that If you're giving somebody a ride, you're doing them a favor, taking them to the airport. You under an impression that you're actually doing them a favor by taking them, but in a sense of virtual land quote unquote.
EldarIt is the giver that is actually the taker in that moment.
MikeYeah, because he's taking the ability to be humbled. That's right.
EldarWell, he's getting the opportunity to be humbled to do the right thing.
ToliyYeah, he's getting the opportunity to tune into virtues, that's right.
EldarYeah, but nobody looks at it like that. It's a complete reverse roles, right, like what the fuck? You know what I mean? I'm gonna get on the ride. It's a very interesting take, but that came from episode three or four giver and taker. Yeah, I remember that, yeah. Yeah, I remember that.
Ego's Illusive Tricks and Overcoming Them
EldarSo I think that ego, right to make my kind of maybe conclusive statements, is probably a magician that has the ability to try to, you know, to pull a trick on us a lot of the times. So nicely he thinks for what they are a lot of the times and make this illusion that this is what it is versus what it's what you know. And I hope maybe job right now is to reason, logic, humility, right, Curiosity and those things to arm ourselves right. Yeah.
EldarTo be able to then combat that, because we understand now through reasoning, right Through logic, that those states when we're not aware cause us suffering and we're not happy. We don't like the outcomes that come our way, you know. So do we fucking hammer the fuck out of this topic? Yeah, that's good. Well, do people understand it? Chatham's like you gotta dumb it down, won't she listen to it? She's like they're not gonna understand it. You're not supposed to.
EldarYou're not supposed to right and notice. You understand. You probably have to go up to episode one and do all the episodes.
ToliyWhich I guess is pretty humbling, oh shit.