Dennis Rox: Confessional Self-Improvement & Psychology
Tired of self-help gurus selling fake positivity?
The Dennis Rox Podcast is a raw, confessional group dialogue that goes straight to the roots of human suffering.
In deeply introspective, unfiltered sessions, Eldar, Katherine, Mike, and Toliy dismantle the psychological conditioning, ego traps, and hidden conflicts keeping you stuck—with zero fluff and total vulnerability.
We confront the ego, relationships, identity, the fear of joy, and what it actually takes to become free.
This isn’t advice.
It’s real work.
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Dennis Rox: Confessional Self-Improvement & Psychology
108. Setting Goals
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Is your 10-year plan a roadmap, or just a sophisticated way to keep you from working today?
This week, the crew dismantles the obsession with "grandiose" goals. Toliy and Eldar argue that people often choose massive aspirations specifically because they are vague enough to provide a "pass" for inaction. We dive into the Entrepreneurial Psychology of "Social Currency"—the dangerous habit of using big dreams to buy praise from others without ever intending to do the work.
The team explores the Mindmaxxing required to shift your focus from the "pipe dream" back to your own character. We deconstruct why we are predisposed to inflate our goals as a defense mechanism against our own fears and insecurities. This is a journey into Truthmaxxing, trading the ego of "illusionary" aspirations for the Radical Accountability of small, daily actions.
Key Takeaways:
- The Vagueness Trap: Why large goals are often chosen intentionally to avoid the discomfort of a specific, well-thought-out plan.
- Social Currency vs. Reality: How sharing big plans provides a "status high" that actually prevents you from taking real action.
- The Integrity of Small Things: Why doing the "small things right" is the only true way to develop the character needed for large-scale success.
- The Panic Pivot: Learning the Emotional Intelligence to stop a mental spiral when the weight of your own aspirations starts to crush you.
Insightful Moment:
"When it's large, it gives it a pass to be very vague... there's not really a particular path that you're on... you still make the idea to do it, you still have an intention, but I think it's intentionally something usually big, where it doesn't need to be well thought out." — Toliy
Are you ready to stop selling out to your own "pipe dreams"? The crew challenges you to take the Awarenessmaxxing path: stop talking about the million-dollar finish line and focus on the integrity of the single dollar in your hand today.
Listen now to find out if you're building a future, or just telling a story.
Feel stuck and can't actualize? We'd love to hear your story - form - https://forms.gle/joegCWQ7mHt7eN3K9
The Importance of Illusionary Goals
EldarOn this week's episode.
ToliyI feel like people feel that it's okay to have a big aspiration or a big goal without knowing much about it, Like it's just okay to have them.
EldarYou're right about that.
ToliyThere's no prerequisites.
EldarI think that's what we're trying to get to. I'm trying to get to maybe help the new generation not stumble upon their ego and pride to create outrageous goals in their minds so that they can live very difficult lives.
MikeYou don't teach them how you learn, because a lot of times, what we're teaching them, it's what we learn, what we learn which is wrong. So that's what we can teach them. How to learn is to not teach them how to learn, and they're going to figure it out. That's another paradox.
EldarAll right Toly Hit us with it.
ToliyWe always do this, and then we always deduce that you're a bunch better at a.
EldarBy giving the introductions. No, I'm not that I'm good. I think you just forget about most of the shit that you've been saying throughout the week and that just kind of reminds you of what you said.
ToliyYeah, yeah, definitely helps me formulate it.
EldarWell, I hope you remember this, so go ahead and hit me with it, because I kind of forgot.
ToliyNo, I'm just like yeah, so I mean, I'm not sure how to make this exactly into a topic, but we were discussing, I guess, the importance of a lot of the little things versus having a focus on larger, I guess, maybe goals or aspirations.
EldarOkay, and why did you come up with this topic and why did this startle you?
ToliyWell, I guess it's probably very common in general to have, I think, larger size goals that you primarily, I guess, want, maybe your desire, or just like larger things, you know.
EldarWhy do you think they have to be larger in the first place?
ToliyWell, I think when you put something out that's going to happen in the future, I think by default you want to shoot for something large. Why? Well, because I think when it's large, it gives it a pass to be very vague. And because it's very vague, there's not really a particular path that you're on or like. There's not like a very well thought out plan here. Didn't you say? It's almost illusionary, Wasn't that the word that you used?
PhillipYes.
ToliyYeah, yeah, it's almost illusionary, I think, you know, because it's such a big thing and you really have no plan, no idea, like, no like, exact like a understanding of how you're going to progress, to transform into this type of person. But nonetheless, you still make the goal like, you still make the idea to do it, you still have an intention, right, you still have like a desire, but I think it's intentionally something usually big, where it doesn't need to be well thought out, it doesn't need to be really much thought even into it. It just needs to be something that just sounds kind of good Like, and I think in most of these kinds of scenarios no one's going to really knock it because it's like. I mean like, like, like. It's usually something that, like you know, maybe some people might agree with or maybe also have a kind of like, a similar goal, similar goal, right, and so it seems like almost a lot of people maybe say these things because they can relate.
PhillipI think it's social currency, right. So like, if I'm saying that to you, I think we have examples of maybe like people that we know that were saying like, hey, I want to do this, this and this, and it's just good enough for them to say that thing, and then the reaction that they get from the people that they're talking to, that's it and from that point on they don't have to take any action, because they got the reaction that they want and in their head it's almost like they are that thing already, because they got that reaction of like, oh, you're pursuing that, like that's really cool.
ToliyAnd then they don't have to go home, or do any of the work.
PhillipThey got the status, they got the praise, they got whatever that they wanted from it and I think, deep down, if you ask them what they actually want, they probably want the tools and they want the confidence that they want to unlock the fear that's preventing them from actually doing that thing. There's something that's holding them back from that big thing and I think there's a reason why.
EldarOn one hand, you're saying, hey, these people are saying these grandiose goals about their life and all they want is the praise in the moment Because they they. But then, on the other hand, you're saying that, oh, they actually want to unlock something about them.
PhillipI'm saying deep, deep down, like if you really ask them.
MikeBut you're probably I think it's much simpler than that.
PhillipYou think?
Mikeso I think people are just saying random shit. They have no idea what they're saying. Like those statements that are being made, they're not conscious statements.
EldarI actually think that they do mean a lot. They might not be conscious statements, but they say a lot.
MikeThey say a lot, yeah, but they don't actually. When people make those statements, they're not actually sitting there thinking about anything other than the grandiose idea, or where did this come about?
EldarLike where did this source originate? It came about.
MikeIt's been a currency that's people been using for a long time and we give each other the pass to run amok, because I'm not going to question you, like, what are you going to do about that goal that you set for yourself, how you can actually achieve that? It's like, oh, okay, congratulations, like sounds like great, like wow, I'm really happy for you. And let me also tell you a lie, and you can do the same for me.
EldarHow do?
Mikewe learn this.
PhillipNo, yeah. So at the time I point back in, I think, of that person's coming from a place of deficit, right, like, let's say, there's a fear that came into them, right, and then over time that built up, built up, built up and they couldn't then achieve that goal because they basically blocked themselves off from, like, the qualities that's going to help them get there. So they got to the point of just telling the story to other people that they are going to pursue it and that's good enough, and I think that's almost like plugging the hole, so like they don't have to feel the pain like every day of carrying that thing around.
EldarYeah, sure, but yeah, but still, how did this originate? When did we get to a point as people that we were okay with making these grandiose statements without being checked, and all this other stuff Like why did this come about? Well, it's shifting.
PhillipYeah, it's shifting away from who you are and then not having people in your life to hold you accountable and you're not holding yourself accountable either. So like it's very surface level interactions which I've been a part of at least most of my life, for like most of it was like materialistic, status driven conversations that didn't have to do with, hey, like, what are you like, what's your character, why are you actually doing that? And if somebody challenged me and they were probably coming from a good place I probably pushed them for the side or ignored them. So I didn't want them to challenge that part of myself. Because I created that thing that I was comfortable in.
PhillipWhy did you create it in the first place? Because I was coming from a place of I moved away from that, that self. Whenever that moment happened, there had to be some type of fear that came in, where there was like a doubt that I was like maybe I was pursuing something I enjoyed and maybe I was like I doubt myself, I don't think I can do it. And then you veer off to this comfortable place where, like, maybe people make you feel good and it's comfortable, but it's not the true path, and I think you go away from the thing that, like, maybe you really want to do so, then it's what you're saying is very easy to sell out.
PhillipI think so, for, like, if you're talking about something that you love and you're passionate about, I think it's very easy to be sensitive or like to have criticism, like eat at you and like be like run by judgment of other people's opinions.
MikeWell, but this is the thing that it's been going on for a very long time.
EldarYeah, it sounds like it. It sounds like a lot of people are predisposed almost.
Setting Big Goals and Thriving
MikeBut I think the tie with the Phil was saying this comes, I think, if you ask people, they're coming from a very deprived place. So when you set these big goals, it gives you a burst of energy, right it?
Eldarfires you up. The thing is, who sets the big goals? How about this?
MikeOh, the sick person sets the big goal.
EldarYeah, but that person's already in existence, right, and gives himself the past to set a big goal in the first place. Like, who gave the authority to this big person to make a big goal? A grandiose idea? Who?
MikeIt's. I think it's probably a mechanism to help cope.
EldarSo I don't think it's a mechanism. No, I don't think it's a mechanism to cope, no, I think it's a mechanism to thrive.
MikeWell, it's the thrive, but you're thriving now. Really it's a coping thing, like you're saying it, so you can muster some energy and draw some energy from that idea that you created. But it's very short lived.
EldarBut I think it could be very long lived.
PhillipWhere are they thriving, though? What's the thriving part?
MikeThe thriving is the emotions that you draw when you say, like yo, that's it, like now I'm going to fucking fall. This way, I'm going to be this person, I'm going to be like. You create this image Like I think probably most people would do this a healthy in a healthy way, as a relationship is or unhealthy. If you have a big dream right, you say, like you know, like I'm going to lose weight. You now you start imagining things. You are, who are you going to be when you have lost the weight? So you're like, wow, I'm going to get more chicks. Wow, I'm excited I'm going to look better. Wow, I'm going to be vanity, like all those things. Those things you can draw some kind of energy from it and I think that future image of ourselves that gives the person some power, some fuel.
EldarThe ego is then thriving in that, and you're constantly refueling itself by pumping this smoke.
PhillipYeah, when I hear thriving, I hear like somebody who's like like, thriving to me is in like a positive sense of you're saying thriving, the sense of the ego. I think that that's like should be very clear, because when I hear thriving, I hear somebody on the path. That's like that's very aligned with what they're supposed to do.
EldarWe're speaking about people that are that are making these grand deals, goals, and we're under maybe a consensus here that, yeah, we're talking about a big ego, right, yeah, we're talking about a big ego, yeah. So I think that you know, the big ego is the one who's creating these goals, these lavish goals, huge goals, right, and I think it's thriving within them. The ego is thriving.
PhillipThe ego is thriving, it's running amok everywhere in you.
EldarThat I understand, but the question is to hear, like, if this is really an illusion, like Toli says right, who sold us this illusion? Who made us buy into this? And like why do we like appoint this to be a servant of our life?
ToliyWell, I mean, I think, like illusion wise, right. Like we all grow up like hearing things, like seeing movies, right, like seeing all kinds of things, right, and I think that, like the like all that adding up together creates some kind of picture that's in our mind, right, like, why do people say they want to get rich, yeah, or want to be wealthy, why?
ToliyBecause they want to have more fun because they've consumed enough content, right when, what? What these goals are, at least to me, is that they're like a portrayal of how you'll live or what you'll feel and what you do when you get this right. So for them to have this type of desire or want to do this, they've consumed enough content, no no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
EldarSee, like I'm not buying that, I'm not buying that. Okay, cool, We'll sit down the kid and we'll start pumping content into them and all of a sudden they're going to say, yeah, like this is great, I'm signed up. If the kid is now under stress and is not happy, then I can see that. But if the kid is genuinely happy and doing something that he enjoys, he or she enjoys. I'm not sure if the content will have the same relevant effect.
MikeI think your question, that when you're asking, is difficult because it's always to me the way I envision. Is that the chicken or the egg question?
EldarI'm asking where the break happened.
MikeYou're asking where was the chicken or the egg, like the way I'm hearing it.
PhillipThere has to be some type of self-doubt. You have to be going against yourself at some stage when did this happen? And you have to buy into something else. And I think like you can just blame society, right, just say like, okay, I buy into things capitalism, things, materialism, cars like I'm going to let everything outside of myself dictate every one of my decisions. Correct.
EldarThis is when you give the keys away from yourself. Yes To somebody else. Yes, this propaganda that he's talking about media. Yeah, right, and let them rule me. Yeah, I know the exact moment it happened for me. I told you, I know the exact moment.
PhillipI know it.
MikeI was. I'd love to hear it.
PhillipSo I was young, I was third grade I had to do a play or something on stage. Like I was like a guitar or something like that. I think I was telling you this before I did like Toastmasters and I knew there was something on stage where, like I was there and I was like nervous but like I felt like almost defeated in the same sense, because like I didn't know what to do, like I just saw people like in the crowd and I like I almost like blacked out. But I just remember that time being like what the fuck? Like what's happening. And then I remember having to present.
PhillipYou know, when you have to do a report, you have to do like some type of like presentation in front of people in class and I would it would like I wasn't. I didn't really get nervous, like before basketball games or anything like that, but when I had to speak in front of people I would get so nervous where like it was almost like like debilitating, where like it would affect my body. But after I was done I was like excited. But there was something in that moment where, when you go up in front of people, there's that moment where you can like really give into it and you can thrive, or you can self doubt and you can just be like yo, I can't do this, and then just believe whatever that thing is. And then you start to allow that first person who's like yo, he sucks. And then you hear that thing like, oh, that's like he's not good. And then you're like, oh fuck, I'm not good. And then, like that's like, that perpetuates over time.
EldarI'm not good, I'm not good, nobody ever told you like you're not supposed to be good at this.
PhillipRight, right, right.
EldarNobody explained it to you in such a way. Okay, no, but the easy thing for.
ToliyFor for like wealth, for example, or like like materialistic things is right. It's like like what? What do most kids want? Kids?
Eldarwant to have fun.
ToliyThey want to have fun and what do they want? What to play, yeah, and. And what do they want? Like they want things right, like they. They want this game, this game and what do? A lot of times, parents say no, no, right. So when you start hearing no, you still have a desire for that thing, for example, right, and I think slowly, we're time that that gets registered. A certain way is like I want this and I'm being told no, right, is that?
Phillipthe same thing. No, no, no, no, no. That's a thing. See, like he's saying like I get what you're saying, but you're saying a thing. The kid wants to do something. Eldar, saying play, play to me's more more in tune with what I'm saying, because if you're on stage or you're saying something, right, this has nothing to do with anything outside of you. You're coming from a place of like I want to share, you know, my happiness, my love, or like my joy, and I'm trying to convey that to me. That's like a process or that's like a craft, I think. A kid who just wants a thing, I think, and he's getting no. I don't think that's the kind of doubt that I'm talking about. Like he's saying no, I think you're shooting down that kid's ego of like wanting to do something else, but telling somebody you can't play, you can't be yourself, that has to do with your character and like your inner workings of like who you are.
ToliyThe self esteem you're saying is being broken on that part.
PhillipI think those two like they're probably tied to what we're talking about, but I think mine is more tied to the person in your character traits and that, to me, is more of like your personality, if that makes sense.
ToliyBut I'm saying is I like that? That's also where I see like something being birthed to, for example, to eventually wanting wealth or wanting Sooner or later.
PhillipYeah, I can see that. I can see that.
ToliySooner or later that kid's gonna want a life that doesn't include no to the things that he wants.
MikeAre you guys under the impression that there was something that happened that shifted it?
EldarWell, we're thinking that, yeah, we think that there has to be some kind of a break, like Philip explained that's very, very, very thoroughly that there was a breakaway. He stopped, he started believing the world and how the world perceived them.
PhillipYes, and it made him feel very bad. So if you don't have that break, I think your natural tendency would be like I feel good or like I'm confident in myself. Yeah, why would your natural sense to say like you doubt yourself, unless your parents or your close friends or some people are telling you that you suck and you just believe it? Yeah, if you have good people around you, then all of a sudden you're in a situation where it's higher stakes, where there's something on the line is a game and there's something where you're performing and you have the ability to do well or not or put yourself out there.
Overcoming Fear in Public Speaking
PhillipEldar
I have the same kind of story. I also had to do some kind of a poem in front of an auditorium, yeah, and I also froze up and I messed up the whole poem. I was, I mean, I know the whole poem obviously, but when you get up there, it's a completely different story, totally different.
EldarNobody came to me and said how do you feeling? Do you want to do this? Yes, Nobody came to me. It was everybody's doing it. You next in line, get your ass up there and do it. Exactly. You know what I'm saying. And I also felt what he felt inside. I was like yo like kind of loser Am I, like I can't do this? Why can't I do this? It's not something. I was a kid, yeah, I didn't deduce this, I didn't just rent. It's just something that was inside of me that then broke. Yeah, and I also had developed a certain doubt about myself and shit. Well, up until college, I had this shit. I mean, I still have it. I still don't like public speaking like that.
EldarYeah, you know, but I thought something that I'll fucking go after, like some people.
PhillipI knew I needed to fix it and when I did that, I was dating somebody at the time and I kept telling them, like yo, I have to take this Toastmasters class to present. And she's like, why do you need that Like for your job? I was caddy in golf clubs with the clubs Like how does that like? How does that correlate?
Eldarto like you doing your job.
PhillipSo, yo, what are you doing? Yeah, I'm like yo, you don't understand. Like I have that thing. It's like a burning inside of, like it's telling me to do something that has nothing to do with my day to day. Yeah, and I have to listen to that thing and I feel like, when you don't listen to that thing, whatever that is your intuition or your gut, whatever that is, I think that can land you in that trouble of staying in that doubt, because if I didn't do that class?
Eldaryou know what I actually? I actually what's his name? I actually had also an option to do the Toastmasters, yeah. And then what I did? I said go fuck yourself, I'm not doing it. Yeah, you know why? Because I realized like I don't need this shit in my life. Yeah, for what? Why would I put myself in the uncomfortable situation? I don't want to do this, but I was already older and I was already able to talk much nicer to myself.
PhillipYeah, but see, for me, I think we were talking about it maybe a day or two ago, when we were asking like hey, philip, like like what are your interests and stuff? I think this can be maybe more attached to like my interest and maybe like something that I do actually thrive off of. You know, maybe speaking to people in a group talking on the phone, like overcoming, like some sense of fear, or when it's a person-to-person interaction or inner performance, my interests might lie more in that than maybe yours.
EldarMaybe, maybe. I mean ultimately, I think that if something doesn't come really naturally to you, I'm not sure if you should be forcing the issue.
PhillipYeah, but if there is that block there for so long, do you think that's worth exploring?
EldarIf it's ruining your day to day activities and stuff, I think you should. Yeah. But if it's not like, I thought to myself like yeah, like when do I go and present and stuff like that, like when do I need that? I don't need that. But if one day it comes like and I have to do like what is going to put a gun to my head and make me do it? I'm an adult now I'm going to tell them go, fuck yourself, I'm not doing this.
PhillipSo let's remove the actual public speaking and like what's underneath it. I think to me it's a fear and it's that block of like what we were talking about for me, and I think that block can be holding me back from maybe telling myself that I am good, right, like if I have that thought process, say it's like this, like wheel right, and anytime I'm about to do something that's going to speak in public or have a performance based activity, then the thought process comes in my head if I'm not good enough, like every time that comes up it's there. But even when it's not there and I'm doing like on the phone or I'm just talking, that's probably still back there and I don't know what it is. So like I'm saying you know, without doing it. Yet I think that thing would be worth correcting for not public speaking, but just getting rid of that thought process that's constantly going.
EldarLike I said, if it's affecting you on a day to day life, I think you should definitely do it. You know what I mean. I just don't think that if it doesn't go out of your way and say like I just want to get rid of this, I'm not sure if it's very valuable.
MikeYeah, I hear that. That's what I thought.
EldarYou know what do you think, Mike?
MikeYeah, the thing is I have the same. I think this applies to anything. Yeah, like one person can drink alcohol and be perfectly fine, another person can be an alcoholic, right? What's that deciding factor? If the person has a good relationship with that thing, then they have a relationship and they don't have to. But if they have a bad relationship, but that thing is actually not, there's nothing rooted in the truth. It's your own self kind of built upon anxieties or self-imposed suffering. Then you have to see it that, hey, it's not that serious. Yeah, and I think going out there and trying to tackle it, I'm not even I'm not sure if that's a good thing.
EldarIt's like forcing yourself again.
MikeIt's trying, it's solving the problem, but you won't really solve it that way, because the problem is not that that's just a manifestation of the underlying issue, whether it's see, if it'll, whether it's some kind of fear or self-esteem issues. That won't get solved because you're just solving something on the actual action but you're not solving the core, the root of your beliefs.
EldarThat's a good point too. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, so I guess we're looking for that break, or where that actually happens, where we start buying in into maybe the external world, outside world, to dictate maybe our decision making, and also then inflates our ego to some degree too right, where we then buy into this whole process of making up false claims and false stories into our heads that we think that they serve us but they actually don't, right, thulud?
MikeYeah, I think the way you guys are looking at you and Phil, you guys are saying there was a break where it happened to me. I think the way I'm thinking about it, you know, is it's more of like a chicken or the egg thing. For me it's something that I don't think we've ever developed right To speak properly or to know how to say certain things, right, Like not make those kind of statements. So I think it's like probably just a lack of a. There's no instruction book for life right.
EldarNonetheless, you're learning very good ways of portraying your egoistical statements, exactly.
MikeYeah, but people. So people do it instead of. I mean, I think there is an instruction book for life which you can obviously access, but most people don't resort to it or don't know about it, for example, right, so I think that's just a result of people making a bad attempt at trying to figure out how to do it.
EldarIs that good enough excuse, though?
MikeI don't know if it's excuse, I think it's to me. I think about it, that's the way it is.
MikeThat's the truth of the situation.
Parenting's Impact on Goals and Desires
MikePeople doing stupid shit, right, you know, going into situations suffering because of them, not because they know better, it's because they don't know better. And there, with time, yeah, the ego becomes huge, that's like a result, as it becomes inflated and they don't think to go and look for the answers. Right, but initially, your parents. They're kind of telling you what they know, what they understand, but have the question the things that they know and understand to be true, and are they when they're passing it on to you?
EldarMost likely not.
MikeMost likely not. So then you know you're going to go and navigate the same way. You said hey, mom and dad says no, can you explain to me why? No, that's it. You over there, that's like a trauma for life, right there you living out some fucking ridiculous thing because your parents didn't explain to you, and then you're going out and you kind of live in this thing out, not really knowing why, carrying that kind of burden.
EldarNonetheless, we're still inflating something very specific, you know, and very confidently doing it, we are doing it.
MikeThat's like I think we're mastering this ignorant kind of behavior, because if you were to start living an exam in life and start doing these things right, would you be able to resort to these kind of tactics.
EldarWell, probably not. But the reason why we keep coming back to them is because they intrinsically are very good at what they do. These the way it serves the ego right. Like you said, it's an illusion. It is very good. It's an illusion, sure, but it does a really good job at tricking us, right.
ToliyYeah, it does. But I was going to ask you what did you mean by like a inflating? You were saying something about that Inflating the ego. No, no, before that you were saying it does a really good job at.
EldarWell, it does a really good job of selling us the. You know, whatever it is, it's selling that goal or whatever. Well, yeah, I mean I might. It's constantly growing out ego. It's constantly growing out pride.
ToliyWell, yeah, but my take on it is that, like people make these goals or have these desires out of a place that they make an assumption as to like, like, I think a lot of these things I think are pretty much all tied to happiness, right of being happy, right, and I think that they're making assumption that doing this will make them happy and the reason they have that picture to begin with, I think is an accumulation of like life experiences, judgments on those and contents and yeah and content mixed together.
ToliyRight, that people assume that wealthy people who have money, for example, are happy. That, to people, is a big truth, I think. So, therefore, a lot of goals stem with finances being on the forefront of their considerations as to what they're going to do, for example, like what their With their lives, with their lives, what they're going to devote themselves to or what they're going to try to aspire to get, and that doesn't take into account with their own intellect or what their own abilities are. Right, like you're going to be an idiot. Right, like someone who's just not very smart at all, and you could still have the same goal as somebody who might be, you know, let's say, extremely on point, extremely smart. Right, and like able to do certain things, have particular skills or crafts.
ToliyRight, like you might have someone, for example, that says like hey, yeah, I want to be an entrepreneur and then I want to make a company into being like worth, let's say, a hundred, like million dollars. Right, and then, like, when you look at their skills or their abilities, they might not have like very many. Right, but then you also might have another person that's a very technical engineer that understands how to build a particular platform or app right and maybe smart enough to know that they need to appoint someone like on, like the sales side or marketing side, and maybe they need to appoint someone else that they know good and like the financial side or like whatever. It is right you might have that person might have, you know, better tools to actually do something in that space and maybe actually have a chance at doing of what they're saying. And nonetheless, two people still have the same type of goal, regardless of their skills or abilities, and there's no. The thing is that in life is that there's no prerequisites to making any of these statements or goals desires.
ToliyAnybody can do any of these Dar precautions there are, but there is no prerequisites to still nonetheless to want something. Anybody can want anything and there's nothing that anybody can do about that, unless they, unless you have a scenario where it's like a I don't know, like a communism or something right, where, like, maybe, you're forced to believe or think like one particular way only, or something right where that only exists in your world. If you live in any kind of free thinking like a country, you're more than welcome to make any kind of desires or wants you want.
EldarWhat suggestions would you make, then, to parents having, for example, young kids or kids, and to ensure that they don't actually fall into this kind of like pit?
ToliyWell, probably, in that scenario, in specific, I would say probably the biggest point of advice that I would have is probably that that kids are not stupid.
EldarRight.
ToliyI think the majority of parents treat their own kids, or their depiction of kids, that kids are dumb, right Because they're dumb. They don't think that it's important to explain something, they don't think it's important to talk about something, they don't think it's important to answer particular questions, they don't think it's important to hold your word. They don't think it's important to be specific about something, right and not vague. They don't think it's important to like spend time Right.
ToliyAnd then it's also again like if you're a parent and you're trying to live, I guess, like somewhat of financial comfortable life, you probably have two working parents that work, let's just say, in commute, let's say total of like eight to 12 hours a day plus the kids in school. So like the bulk of the influence is probably not going to come from the parents regardless. It's going to come from just school and other kids and just free thought in that kind of way. So like combination of that and then parents that view their kids to be not smart and not capable of like understanding something or learning something. Their kids are bound to be like that, like there's another round.
ToliyYeah.
EldarRight, that's another optimistic view, yeah.
ToliySo like, yeah, my opinion on it is that, like from a young age, you're absorbing all this content and movies and articles and shows and everything about very, a very particular depiction of particular types of people and I think lots of times you might create desires or goals around that.
ToliyYeah, Like I wanted like, for example, growing up, I wanted to be an NBA player. Like that's what I wanted for a long time, right, but like I didn't take to account that I like I'm very short, or like probably not that good, or like, yeah, like all different kinds of other things, right, but I still made that desire. This is what I wanted to be.
EldarYeah. And did you come to realization that you're not going to be an NBA player, and when did this finally?
ToliyYeah, so I don't remember when I came to realization, but I vividly remember my mom talking to me and asking me about like thinking about like a backup plan.
EldarReally yeah.
ToliyNo, I remember telling her about it and then like and then you know she was like yeah, you know, you can definitely like I don't remember she was saying aim for that or what, but she was like, but I would also start thinking about, like, what else you'd want to do? Wow, you know, you know, yeah.
Big Goals and Entrepreneurship Challenges
EldarIt's almost like if we, if we get caught right, like you say, maybe by media content, you know, or got embarrassed by people, and our ego starts flaring up, or we start buying these stories and now we start telling these stories to ourselves. Right, the ego flares up to a point where then you go throughout your whole life to try to unlearn this or prove yourself, prove to yourself that ultimately, your happiness does not actually lay in these things.
ToliyWell, yeah, but also, at the same time, when your ego is firing up, you cannot explain anything to that person Like and like. Oftentimes it's like maybe they've just been told like no to many times, right, but people have not found it valuable to explain to them like the scenario, or challenge them right, like they kind of just been like yo, like what are you talking about? Or like no, or like you know just something very definitive, very just like, close it off and that's it. There is no emphasis on like explaining something or reviewing it, or like saying, okay, you want to be an NBA player, well, why is that?
EldarYeah.
ToliyWhat about it? Do you?
Eldarlike that conversation was never had properly.
ToliyYeah, do you like the fact that, like you have a season where half your game's on the road and you're not going to be able to see us and your family? Do you like the fact that there's a lot of money involved? Do you like the fact that, like you could just play basketball religiously? Or do you like the fact that you have to work out, you know, two, three times a day and really eat the right foods and, like I, have the right like therapies in place to keep your body healthy?
EldarAre you willing to go through all that?
ToliyYeah, like, what do you like about it actually? So, coming from that kind of angle where maybe you can get a conversation going right, this is like just saying like no little Timmy, like you have two left feet, like the thing is not happening, yeah, and then little Timmy is going to go 20, 30 years trying to prove you wrong. Yeah.
EldarDamn Josh. If you're listening, the hoop dreams are over. Yeah, Okay. So so you concluding what you are. A pretty serious conclusion, a real goal. Big goals don't exist or they're illusionary.
ToliyYeah, they're just very difficult, I think, for the person coming with that goal. I would think that 99.9% of people like if they're challenged, or like putting a position to explain themselves. I think they have a very hard time doing so. Backing it up. Yeah, again, right, like when people talk about I'm sure you've heard this many times right, people talk about, like entrepreneurship. Right, what are you here?
EldarI'm starting my own business.
ToliyStart my own business, be my own boss.
EldarYeah.
ToliyRight, what else?
EldarI want to get rich.
ToliyRich Well, with someone else that you know, said oh, retire my parents, okay.
EldarNo, not that.
Toliybut how about schedule? Oh, make my own schedule, make my own schedule, be my own boss, right? There's a very particular picture that people have when it comes to entrepreneurship, and I would say that in some form requires you getting to a point where you actually don't do shit but reap a lot of benefits from shit that you've done before. That, to me, is probably what a lot of people want. Like they have this idea that, like they wake up, there's no responsibility, just go to the gym, you know. Like you come home, you make this like vegan green shake, you know. Watch out for a bit. Like sit in the backyard, read like 30 pages of your mastermind marketing book. Like take two phone calls on your private jet right On your way there.
ToliySo we have one meeting where you just close a $10 billion deal, yeah. Then you move on to the next day where you do like stretching and yoga and stuff like that, and like then you go to and then you do like this like bedtime routine where you have these. Like where you listen to this influential podcast that's going to make you super smart and you take these vitamins that are for brain sharp performance, right, right. And like this is their idea of it. They're going to like work like two hours a day, do nothing like the whole day, and just be like this, like you know this, like mind performance, like driven life.
ToliyRight, yeah, this is what I think people think about, like entrepreneurship. They think about freedom, they think about not having to do a lot. They think about, like again being your own boss, to not have to entertain anybody. Like they think about all the things but they don't understand the different like complexities of it. And if people actually do, if, like knowing what you know now, right, people that want to do all these kinds of things, right, based on your experience. Right, like if they knew what it takes and all the different like complexities of all the different elements of doing that, like, yeah, how many people are going to actually want that?
EldarYeah, not many. I think that's why Socrates and Plato they're in the Republic, right, Mike. They emphasize the importance of people really finding out, figuring out what the fuck they should be doing with their lives. You know what I mean? Yeah.
MikeThat's what they were saying about to have a successful city.
EldarYeah For people to be doing exactly what they ought to be doing and not this. Like you know, Doctors are doctors just because they wanted to make more money.
MikeYeah.
EldarRight in America, for example, yeah, and they make a lot of money. The lawyers, right. And therefore you're going to have a corrupt system because everybody kind of in it for the wrong reasons and not for the passion or at least a natural calling, right, if I'm naturally not fucking, if I'm a little guy and I'm fucking being taught the same thing, the little girl being taught, and she's able to recite this damn poem on top of her lungs so well and amaze everybody, and I can't do it, I'm freezing up up there. I'm not supposed to be a singer or perform on stage. This is a fucking clear as day. Let's just say, yeah, right, this ability didn't come naturally to me, well, to her it did, you know, to this little girl. So she ought to be a singer or something or performer in front of TV or people and stuff like
Toliythat you know. The issue, though, I think, is that why these things live and why these things are created is because, in just like in general, people don't live in a world where there's a shared reality with like them and the people around them. They live in a world that's purely in perceptions, to their own perception, yeah, as to what it is right. They think that they're capable of being a business owner when, like, they don't know anything about anything. Like how do you make that kind of desire? Just explain to me, how can you make that kind of desire without knowing the different intricacies of it? Or like it may be a more appropriate sentence to say like hey, I don't know what I'm going to do career wise, but maybe I'm going to do some research on some different things and see what sits well with me, or see that Then they might look into many different things. Right, like that to me is like an okay statement to make, for example. Right, but like so many kids, so young or so convinced that, like this is what they're going to do and what proves to me that this is what's okay and this is what's completely fine, is that what you
Choosing a Career Path
Toliygo into?
ToliyLike elementary school, right, where you kind of don't like choose what you take. You just take like a combination of everything. You take your math, yeah, you take like reading, social studies or history, and you progress to different levels of math. Maybe the only choice you make is like what language you learn, and generally in America it's like French or Spanish, right. Then in high school you have a lot more choice where, like, there's certain things that are requirements like English, like math, like history and then like science. But you can take like a marketing course, you can take like a, like a pottery course, you can take like those different kinds of things. You get more flexibility, right. But then when you get to the point where you're like 17, 18 years old, you need to make a very big decision, right as to like what, like where you're going to go to school and what you're going to do. Yeah, for like, I guess, like mainly for the rest of your life, right.
PhillipYeah, for the most career wise, that's like the choice you're making.
ToliyYeah. So I mean I've seen that choice. I think that like you're kind of like almost forced to make a decision at that point and make a really big goal right, but like how are you at that age or how are you at that point in your life Stopped enough to consider all the variables.
ToliyYeah, yeah, to make a selection because I mean you're just like just scratching the surface about like learning about life and just like different, like nuances right, like you have no idea anything about. Like money or finance, or like how things work, or like debt, or like bills, or like being self sustainable or like anything like that. Right About politics, or whatever. Right, but no, unless you're still forced into making a decision as to what to do. So I think a lot of it will definitely start there and then during that whole time, you're being kind of fed a bunch of content as to what life feels like if you are X, y and Z right, like, like, for example, like Joe, it was a fireman. Right.
ToliyWhen you're a small kid and you think of that word, you think of like a hero. Right, like that's like association with it. Right. When you think of like I don't know, like someone in finance at a high position, you think of what? Like a wealthy right, like money, or like you think of like an actor or like an athlete as like oh, they're like a superstar or something like that. Right.
EldarEach title has kind of associations.
ToliyThey have those different associations, especially being a kid. You absorb all that information and then you think to yourself almost like, what does a happy life for you look like? And I think that's where you're buying into like, making this kind of like selection. But it's a very big selection to make and you really have no information about it. You have no idea what it feels like to actually be it. You actually don't know if it's actually going to make you happy, but you're convinced and you're okay to not know anything about it because it's like you're imagining, right? You're imagining being the fireman, for example. You're imagining being like the stockbroker, the lawyer, and you're imagining what life would be. And that sounds that. I mean, that sounds good to you, right? Yeah, If it sounds good to you, you go on this full-fledged pursuit of it.
ToliyOr we were talking about before, about entrepreneurship, right? People think about these things about like, oh, you just have an open schedule, you just do whatever you want, you just have to work one or two hours a day and then you could just be this performance-minded coach that does yoga all the time and eats these crazy healthy foods and live this luxury lifestyle when they don't know there are so many nuances about running a business, about working way harder, dealing with way more problems, having way more stress. That's not the perception that people have. They think about this be your own boss, reap all the benefits, make all the money. Right, it's just a false reality. But my whole take on it is just the vagueness. My main issue with these goals is the vagueness of it.
EldarBut see, somebody buys into the vagueness right. Well, no, the kid buys into it.
ToliyNo, but the reason they buy into it is because you don't have to explain yourself. When you have a big goal, you could just say that this is what it is. There's nothing you need to know about this. There's no one to explain to, there's no one to answer to. But why are we so gullible? Then, Well, that's the thing I feel like. People say that they feel that it's okay to have a big aspiration or a big goal without knowing much about it. It's just okay to have one.
ToliyYou're right about that there's no prerequisites. Dream big right.
JoeYeah, I mean, everyone dreams big. I know, when I was a kid I wanted to be a hockey player for the Rangers. That was my goal Basketball player. I wanted to be a hockey player. And I would say that, as the question gets asked when you're young, what would you like to be when you grow up? Hockey player. Then I switched to veterinarian because I loved animals and I realized being a veterinarian was going to take on a lot of, I guess, a lot of work. It was going to be also going to deal with a lot of the bad. And then I was like I don't think I want to deal with that.
Navigating Career Expectations and Following Passion
JoeAnd then you get all those outside influences of people like your parents, kind of pushing you for a certain career. But I remember early on I never really thought about money, I just thought about what's interesting, what would make me happy. And then as time goes on your expectations versus reality, junior high school you start to become a little more mature and a little more thinking about what high school you want to go to. And then when you're in high school, it's all built about careers. And there are those classes like I took, woodshop metal, all these almost like blue collar type jobs where you kind of see where you fit, what you like. And then you got to start thinking about college and which college that you go to is going to assist you in the career you might want. I think at the time I was really into film and editing and we would always mess around with cameras and making funny videos and I say I'll go to film school, I'll make it into the film industry.
JoeAnd then when I was in college I think my first semester I was like this isn't what I thought film school was going to be, like I'm getting out, I'm not doing film. I literally just stopped taking film courses for the first two years. I still needed to redevelop my thought process. I took core curriculum classes for two years and then I sat down with the advisor and she got me back into film. She said she gave me the reality aspect of what the course was going to be like and how I had to take all these different types of classes that I might not be interested in, but it's part of the development. You learn about the whole entire production of all the departments of film.
JoeAnd then I was like, okay, once I did finish and got out, that was my career for six years, but I never really thought about it as such, as like a, the big payout or these big wishes or plans for like this amazing, crazy life. I just said let me follow passion, let me follow something that I enjoy, and that's when I had the opportunity to go with the fire department. I knew for a while I wanted it and it was a long. It was a long journey to get and then when I got to it it took a huge pay cut but it didn't matter to me. I was at it finally at the job where I was like you're happy every day, you're fulfilled, and I don't know.
JoeI think there's a difference between a lot of the people that maybe they got sold on this pipe dream or they got persuaded or influenced to think that there was something else that they should maybe be aiming for. When you're focused on a position, or if you're focused on the outcome of like this is what's gonna get me this, and I need to become a lawyer or a doctor or some high-paying job for me to be happy. If that's not where your true interest and passion is, you're gonna be wasting a lot of time. You're gonna kind of have these issues Like you. Look at young kids now. All they wanna do is I'm gonna be an influencer, I'm gonna be a model.
EldarI wanna be a YouTuber.
JoeI wanna be a gamer. They see, like, what other people are doing out there and it's so diluted now and their jobs are changing. We're all entering a different type of workspace where AI is taking over all the jobs that we grew up and our lifetimes, what's normal to us for work and learning, different trades and these types of opportunities or careers are kind of a lot different now. But buying into the dream or selling the stream, I don't know. I feel like I never really bought into it.
ToliyYeah, but see, but, for example, like in Joe's example, like think about the trajectory of all those different things that he listed. You know hockey player? Yeah, well, you did have that almost.
EldarYou then debunked those things for yourself slowly. By understanding what are the intricacies behind the hockey player, veterinarian, right, Because you didn't really know the idea of being a hockey player was cool, the idea of being a vet was cool, and all this other stuff. But then when you got really into it, you're like, oh shit, this might not be for me, but nonetheless you did have those attachments.
ToliyYeah, and it's almost like there's a promotion, maybe in society, to dream big or to like do whatever you wanna do, right, or like all that kind of stuff. But it's almost like a false empowerment, right? It's like they're trying to empower you to do what you want to do, right. But maybe they're not talking about the steps of figuring out, like what does that actually mean or what does that actually take, but maybe this is the process of life.
EldarMaybe this is the most efficient process that humanity kind of stumbled upon, where it's like trial and error, you know go through three, four things. Go through three, four things.
ToliyYeah, I always found that waffling and I think we suppose a while ago like how, at 18 years old, are you supposed to make a decision as to what you're gonna do for us your life, like that's absurd. Yeah, you don't. And not only that. You kind of like start applying to colleges that could be in all different states or areas, right, and then they're out of control, expensive, right. So you're potentially committing to hundreds of thousands of dollars now in days, right, with what school?
Eldarcosts. Well, fuck that, fuck that. You talking about consequences. How about you can go and listen to an army at 18?
PhillipThat's a fucking consequence right there, yeah, yeah.
EldarOkay, find the debt right. You about to put your life on the line for somebody else's fucking ideology? No one knows anything.
JoeEven people stopped their careers in their 20s 30s. They change it up. I had career changes and people go back to school, people get degrees, go back and they wanna go get educated and maybe get their masters or change things midway. The midlife crisis concept is like the real thing. You realize you're not where you wanna be at a certain age, but I think we're all like we're all the salmon swimming upstream trying to survive. Everyone's oh, we're going this way, all right, let's go, and you're trying to do it and everyone's kind of has template of how you move forward and what you're supposed to do school, work, career, family. There's a template. It's the normal life that you think you should have or you're going down that path.
JoeI had lots of 180s. I had a lot of times when shit didn't work out for me and I did not think that was gonna happen. And I'm a pretty precise guy who likes to plan a lot of things out and I don't really have a lot of disruptions and things that like I didn't see that coming, but I had some big ones and I was like it's part of it. And even the most precise and particular person that can try to control everything I realized that that doesn't exist, and you gotta roll with the punches and just be blessed that at least you wake up every day, you have friends and family around you and you have the opportunity to adjust and to figure things out as you go. There's nothing wrong with figuring it out as you go, even till whatever it takes, whatever it takes.
EldarSure, and I think this is a very solid advice for the individuals who may be a little bit older or whatever now. But now, what do you advise your kid, for example, who's gonna be growing up right, and how would you bring him up? What questions will you ask and how would you direct? Or how would you not direct right In the case of his own personal curiosity, stuff like that.
JoeI definitely don't want to shape him the way I want him to be. I will give him a layout of what I went through, what I know. It's your elders that have the experience, and this is priceless stuff. All you should do is lay it out, share it and let them digest it Easily. He's five months old by the time he's 18, it's funny, though, like there's a South Park episode.
JoeI don't know if you watch it, but AI takes over. Robots are doing everything. No one knows how to do anything anymore. Everyone uses Siri and AI. No one knows how to fix their plumbing or whatever. So all the handyman become the richest, most valuable people in the world because they have full control over what they want to price for their jobs.
JoeAnd I know that I'll probably be showing my son the trades. I know how to weld, how to do this, how to do that and how to be hands-on and how to be able to build, because that's gonna be a dying art. I'll lay out some certain things and give him a foundation and see where his interests lie and push his creativity, his imagination and his desire to drive. The more you offer him, the more he has flavors to choose from. It's like sampling at an ice cream shop. You go in there and you're not gonna just know I like vanilla until you taste it. Or if you wanna be crazy and try something off the wall, go ahead If they're there for you to try. That's when you're gonna come out with the best narrowed down decision and go. I ran through all these flavors. Even though they say the sample only one. I sampled all of them and I know I love this one.
JoeAnd if your desire is to keep going to the one you like, so be it. If you like to always just have random ones come at you, that's what your future will be like. You may come, float through careers and take what works for you. As long as you have a means of sustaining a living to survive, then I wouldn't worry. You don't have to make millions. As long as you can cover your essential needs, you're happy.
JoeI took a lot of that from Eldar. He always had this mindset of as long as I could live with the bare essentials and I'm happy. I'm happy with that, and it wasn't like a go getter attitude, but it was like he wasn't striving for the top, but I knew that he was gonna be okay no matter what and at the end of the day he was gonna be at his most richest internally. And then look what happened with that. When he had that time and space to be free and to enjoy his, he didn't look at his age and where he was living and where he was with his relationship, or he wasn't comparing himself to nobody. He got more college degrees than I did and he's an immigrant from Russia. He's excelled in school. For me he's excelled in business and what he's accrued and attained his assets, his career beyond what I've reached, he's excelled and I always looked at him by going like Eldar's is kind of chilling. So I mean, that's a good example of letting your career kind of come to you and it will work out.
EldarYeah, I mean I think I got lucky by being introduced to philosophy at early age Sure, you know what I'm saying and turning on my mind. So and then when I turned that on, obviously I think the goal of philosophy in general is to preserve maybe our own abilities to critically think, reason, have fun and stuff like that. So I wanted to make sure that whatever I got into, I enjoyed it or had fun. So that definitely helps. But I think that's what we're trying to get to. I'm trying to get to maybe help the new generation not stumble upon their ego and pride to create outrageous goals in their minds so that they can live very difficult lives. You know what I mean Going and testing these theories just to prove themselves wrong.
EldarBecause a lot of people out there are living out lives right now under the wrong impression.
JoeYou know what the biggest problem with that is, especially for the up and coming generations, is the comparing aspect of it. Social media does that to all the kids now. Very good, yeah, that's all they know. I see them struggling. They just need to take a photo of what they're doing to post, so they've done their part for the day. They're contributing to their social status online because everyone else is doing it and they need to. You know, everyone's comparing and looking at each other's lives and trying to show off and the reality of what their lives are and not what you see on the internet and a lot of the kids, that's all they have and everyone lives like a digital life.
EldarBro, when I realize this crazy thing about social media I mean, I always knew that social media was crazy, but I never participated in it to know what's actually going on is when I recently started participating and when I started speaking in some of these spaces or making comments in certain spaces, some people told me like hey, who are you to talk? You only have 100 followers. When I've heard that, I've come to realize yo, there's two different identities here that I'm working against. There's the reality of who I am and what I actually know and what I'm trying to say, and then my identity in my fucking You're in shit online. You're in shit online. That online is a separate identity that, if you don't have these amount of stars, points, followers, whatever the fuck that they have, like their measure is like you ain't shit, so like your word is nothing. That's when I realized like, oh shit, this is what's going on and I was like wow, that's wild. That's a social credit score. It's crazy, it's crazy, that's a new credit score?
EldarYeah, your social status, your social status, yeah, and it's pretty wild, not alone is like whoa.
Social Media's Impact on Teenagers' Relationships
JoeYeah, there's a lot of depression going on in young teens and all this. We didn't go through high school with anything any of these online social media accounts and we didn't face depression that they do on such a fast. They're open to the world and it was so simple. For us it was we would show up at school. We would deal with the kids face to face. If you had an issue, you'd settle it. It was you go home that day. It's like clocking in and clock it out and then when you didn't have to deal with so much, you didn't have to juggle so many different identities.
JoeNo, it's very difficult. That's why I see a movement now where kids are starting to catch that now, because they're born into it and when they get to their junior high school or high school they're already kind of aware of this. They know they don't like the way it makes them feel they're pushing towards the disconnect movement.
JoeThey're pushing towards like being more present and not in the digital world. You see a lot of them starting to. They wanna go to flip phones. They know what existed. They know how simple it was and how easy it was. The communication aspect was still there. They don't want anything to do with the craziness of what your smartphone brings you now and what all these companies are. I mean, they're all getting hit now too. Facebook is being berated, their Instagram he's apologizing. Right now he doesn't even know how to react to it?
JoeYeah, he doesn't know, he's a robot bro, like turn around face to family of all the people, of the kids that killed himself and this and that Apologize. He's so good, bro, it's like I'm sorry he doesn't even know.
EldarHe doesn't even know what's going on.
JoeI gotta say, yeah, yeah, he's so beyond, or maybe he knows and he's just seeing dollar signs. It doesn't matter to him, but the kids are. I think the kids are waking up. Parents are waking up.
ToliyYeah, but one of the things we were also talking about is that this also happens because a lot of parents they view kids as being dumb, so they don't think that they're capable of understanding something or being explained to. So if you have, for example, a son and he's asking you questions, it's a lot easier as a parent who's already tired from working and just in general beat up. Their perception already is that the kid's dumb, he doesn't know better yet or he doesn't know much yet, and they just kind of brush everything off to the side, versus thinking that this actually is a curious individual that you can have a conversation to or that you can take the time to explain something to so that they understand and maybe as they grow they won't grow to be just a dumb ass.
JoeRight, you're right. I mean I'm definitely going to take that approach with my son. My father didn't give me that. I was that smart ass kid who went to college and thinks he knows everything attitude that came from my father and I remember saying to him I challenged him and said I know I'm younger than you, I know I'm not as smart as you, you have more experience than me. But do you think, for one second or one, there's one chance that I might be able to teach you something that you might not have learned? That I did, and then we could have a conversation where I'm in a position where I could teach you. And maybe it was the ego or maybe it was something that just he wouldn't accept it. But we all do know that we only advance our parents and once we pass them, we're light years ahead of them and then we're taking care of them. They can't catch up to where we are and it's going to be like that as generations keep swapping out. But I will take that approach because I didn't get that.
EldarYeah, Joe, I think that you're going to be facing a curious stage when the kids start asking lots of questions. I think that's a very interesting, important stage in kids' life.
JoeI think it's from like two to seven.
EldarYes, when they start talking, they start asking questions like why is this, why is this, why is that? I think that if you take that process seriously and really be there and really pay attention and be honest, most importantly, in your answering and stuff, I think you can really do a lot of good for your son.
ToliyAnd you can be surprised as to how smart he really is If you actually give him an opportunity to explain him something. But again, your retired parent, you just work like 12-hour shift. You're beat up. You just want to kick your feet up and watch TV. He's social media, he's going to get influenced by the world. He's going to get influenced by what he sees in school. He's going to get influenced by everything else and you're just going to eventually become the dumb ass in his life that he doesn't know shit. Yeah.
JoeWell, if I want any influence, if any influence is going to come to my son, it's going to be for me and my wife, my family, my friends. I don't need some strange school or the public shaping or putting their fingers in his head and shaping his future. I'll be present, 100%, without a doubt.
EldarAnd still, you should be very careful. You should be afraid of yourself as well. Sure, because of the fact that, like Toli says, a lot of times we live in our misconceptions that we don't even know are in us. Right now we're under one impression, but then we've come to find out this impression is not serving us. It's not correct, it's not based on truth. We can pass that on very easily to our kids, which is a grave danger, because then they have to live for years, decades sometimes, and like, oh shit, that's not it, that's not the right thing.
JoeI'm fortunate to have a pretty smart wife. Yeah, and we check each other. Yeah, there's things I'm strong in, there's things she's strong in. And I just say all the time if I'm repeating stuff that it's from my past, that I just don't realize I'm repeating, she puts the check on it and I do the same for her. That's great and we know we want to come at this as a team and we want to shed as much as we cut a lot of the fat out that we don't need, that we know exists and we're trying to be conscious of.
EldarBut we're excited then. Yeah, we're excited for your kid to come out there and be the leader of tomorrow.
PhillipFuck it up.
EldarFuck it up because this world needs it, bro. You know what I mean. Yeah, people are running amok, bro, I know so.
ToliyYeah, it's actually not exactly. I mean, I think it might be someone to a story that Joe was saying. I think I forgot to share it, but just remind me of it. It was like a thing like two months ago with my dad where we were driving to my house and I forget something that was happening and then I commented on something that he was sharing with me and telling me about and then I don't remember exactly what unfolded or how, but I remember my dad making like he made a comment saying that Hissing sound.
ToliyWhat, yeah, yeah, yeah, hissing, sound right About. Like he didn't like the scenario because he said that he felt that I was teaching him something Right. And I was asking him, like hey, like, what's wrong with that Right, like, right, like, if you're saying that, like you're not good at this and I'm, for example, teaching you and it's it's making sense to you, like what's wrong with this scenario? And he was like, and like he basically in some way basically said like, don't, don't do this, going forward, and then, when I was asking him why, he said that he doesn't want to like, like, like he doesn't want any kind of scenarios where he said that it's not right for your son to teach you things as a dad.
JoeWell, here's a little snippet of when I first entered the fire department. I was, I was going into it going. I have no idea what I'm doing, no experience. I'm brand new. To call them probes. You wear a yellow patch on your front of your helmet. People know you're new. They expect you not to know things and you're a below. But the senior guy in my house who was shaping us and teaching us and kind of giving us to get ready into our career.
JoeSomething that stuck with me was he said listen, we know a lot more than you. You know, pay attention to the things we say. You know and follow us and you'll be OK and eventually things will work out. But if we're at a scenario that you see something and you want to say something, don't hesitate to bring it up to us. And, for example, if we're in a building, we're operating, there's a fire, there's possibility of collapse. Collapse is probably the you know, the worst thing that could happen. You had a fire, you know, because you're not dying because you can't control a fire, you're dying because there's a sudden collapse in the building. Structures might be. These buildings are built who knows when, how shitty.
JoeSo you think in your head these guys could look at what we're going into and be like and be able to read the room. But what you don't realize is there's so many things going on. You might miss something. And if you're, if you happen to catch something like a crack in the wall and you feel that something's off, you know your intuition is telling you, or something feels, the floor feels a little mushy, it might give, or you see the ceiling starting to sag or something. I remember my senior guy saying just tell, just just, if you see something and you feel like telling us, say something. Just because you're a pro, it doesn't mean you can't talk, it doesn't mean you miss. You saw something and we happened to miss, so and I knew that you're putting the value into the fact that, even though we know, we don't know anything, we have at least the basic you know, common sense of certain things like, yeah, of these things that they might need to be tipped sometimes because they're occupied. And then I said, okay, so we're in a sense equals, we're all in this together. Obviously, we know you know more and we're going to catch up to you at one point, but we can contribute and we're a team and we could bounce off each other and use each other, because there are things that we how did I make you feel?
JoeI felt good, empowered, I felt like you know, I'm here, I'm respected, this is my position. They would have had to do to get here, even though I'm a newbie, I'm a probie, I know nothing. The guy made me feel like that. I was as equal. So I wasn't scared to grow, I wasn't scared to participate, I didn't keep my mouth shut over things that I knew could help. Sometimes I would bring something up and they're like, yeah, that doesn't matter, I was a little happy they would ask a stupid question. But there's no stupid thing, there's a stupid question, which that also helped too, because you don't feel embarrassed to ask something. You'll be made fun of later, which is fine, yeah, just in case.
JoeBut you know, part of the learning process is to know that you can contribute. You can mess up, but you also might bring up an angle or a perspective that just comes from you and wasn't being noticed or couldn't be developed by someone else.
ToliyYeah, and it's like a stupid clip or just something I think that has to do with that. I guess you guys are all familiar with Jeff Bezos. Yeah, that guy, right, I mean.
EldarI don't know. I guess, people probably have a bad perception of him.
ToliyI don't know really much about him, but I saw a clip about something I guess maybe it might be like somebody that I found was interesting and he said that when he was building Amazon and they would have meetings let's say there was 10 people in the meeting he said that there was a rule that the least senior people speak first and then the most senior people always speak last. He goes because he said that if I'm in the room and we're talking about something and I give my opinion on it, he goes. You think anyone under me is going to go against me? They're not going to speak their mind, they're not going to be honest, they're not going to give an actual take as to what they actually think. So they would always have the employees speak all individually and then it would be the next boss and the next boss and the next boss, so that no one would be afraid to speak out against or to not be honest with something. I think that's a similar thing.
JoeYeah, and there was something I heard in previous podcasts when you were interviewing someone here to work I think it was for here Right letter friend. Yeah, the kid that's friend, oh, yeah, okay. And you wanted him to interview you which is a technique that people do use.
JoeThey flip it on the person coming for the job and say you interview me, yeah, and then you're kind of seeing where their mind is and things that you might not get them to say or pique their curiosity. But yeah, they're not afraid because they're giving the mic, they're giving the floor, cats not going to get their tongue or they're not going to be biased on saying or prejudge their thoughts or comments Kind of wanted to just flow out. And then if he realized the person interviewing for the job is spewing out nonsense or didn't align with what he wanted to come out, naturally he could make an assessment. But if Eldar gave him question, question, question, and he was ready for filling the blank here and he knew all the things to say, he's not getting a genuine representation of who he's going to get.
Small Things, Integrity
JoeAnd I think that works in all fields when it comes to ideas, brainstorming and communication, communicating.
EldarYeah, the difficult part is to upkeep that. Right, you can give the opportunity, maybe for that one time, but how do you keep doing that where you can be? Like you said, like your guy, your boss allowed you to always kind of speak your mind, right? He said that kind of for you right.
JoeYeah.
EldarAnd that's good, but not all scenarios you do. You always feel that you can express yourself or whatever, so you kind of like go by the society standards you know what I mean and you can never kind of actualize your true self and your true potential, which is shit obviously.
JoeWell, I will go back to some of my bosses and the careers I've had. And the sound mixer, my audio supervisor, would say because we run very technical jobs and it's live and where we only get one shot at things and we have to be set up for events, make sure we're getting what we're getting, have a plan A, b, c. If this goes bad, have backups and just like, be ready to execute a perfect day. And he would always say if you don't know what you're doing, ask me. I'd rather you ask me look stupid, because you don't know a technical term where you didn't know how to operate something and you actually like you knew, and then you let something pass us by and you failed at executing our plan because you didn't want to look bad at the time.
JoeI'd rather you look bad at the time, tell me you don't know what you're doing, I'll tell you how to do it, then we do it and then we move on from there. I'm not going to fire you or judge you because you were being honest with me. He gave me the opportunity to realize I didn't have to fake it until I made it. I had to be honest with what I knew and what I was capable of and if he needed to nudge me or teach me quickly or push me or give me something quickly, he could do it, because I was able to adapt and figure out what he meant and things like that. But I knew that I felt stronger and more confident as a team, that I knew that we all were on that same path. We weren't going to be prejudged or ridiculed or abused for it. It just made us all more comfortable and that I knew was a great leader, a great teammate.
EldarNow the question is the chicken or the egg question. Mike, Did you come into his life or did he come into yours? Because you almost were lucky to have these types of bosses right, but maybe it's your attitude that allowed your bosses to be the best selves.
JoeThe chicken or the egg. Well, I know this guy was the way he was built and this is how he treated everyone, and maybe the people that why not working for him have this fit, because I didn't see a lot of. If you didn't fit the role, if you didn't run that type of, if you didn't run your work that way, then you pretty much probably stopped working for him or stopped calling you yeah, yeah, yeah, but chicken or the egg, I don't know.
EldarDid you get lucky or not?
JoeI got lucky meeting him and working for him.
EldarAnd having the attitude that you did have in order to them perform and become the expert that you became and a good worker and a happy employee.
JoeYeah, I honestly only wanted to please him In the day.
JoeI wanted him to look as good as he could. I wanted to. I had checklists that, even though I did the same thing every day, hit record, set this time, code this, and that I still pulled out my phone and he instilled in me. Even the simple things you can fuck up, there's a cheat sheet for that, Like pilots going off, flip this, flip that, go through their run checklist. I did that. He taught me to do that with everything. You sit down in interviews, everything is calm. There's no like run and gone. Everyone's running around with cameras and get the scene, get that Sit down. And I've had fuck ups, even with checklists, even with the things that help you not make simple mistakes. And then if there was a simple mistake I made, he would just be like did you go through your checklist? And then, to be honest, the times that I fucked up, I didn't go through the checklists. You arrogant bastard Because you get complacent. But then, when you do fuck up, his disappointment in you as a parent the disappointment rather than anger.
JoeThe disappointment is enough to make you clean your act up If you were slipping. Everyone gets complacent. The key goal is to never get complacent, because it's up to you to maintain that work ethic.
EldarWow, not to ever get complacent. I think it's the ego and the pride or arrogance allows us to become complacent, but you're saying don't be so. That's the tricky part, if it's worth it to you.
JoeIf the outcome there's no disappointment, nothing affects you, then you'll slip and you'll be this work ethic it doesn't matter to you, but if the person that you're working for or the goal, the outcome, if that's important to you.
EldarWhat about the ethics? The right thing when nobody's looking right.
JoeYeah, integrity.
EldarIntegrity. Yeah, yeah, if that's big. If you're big on that, then you know you're due to the right thing.
JoeThere were so many eyes on me when I was in the police department. That was during my early colleges, so 18 to 21, 22. When I was in, I went through the academy and there was so many eyeballs on you they broke that down to you. They're like, no matter how sleek you think you are, how slick, and we see everything. Go ahead, try to like sneak around or be deceitful, we'll see it, we'll catch you, you'll deal with, we'll deal with you. Then You'll just act like we're always watching. So just do the right thing. Do the right thing for the right reasons and if you have integrity, you'll never have to deal with the bullshit, the bullshit or the fear.
EldarYeah.
JoeIt's just like you got to decide that you either gonna that's the way you're gonna run your life, except that failing or failing is fine, but knowingly doing the wrong thing, which is, I know, is a big thing. That's why I was beef with you on that one. Yeah, because you say no one knowingly does the wrong thing. No one you can't.
EldarIt's impossible to do it.
JoeBut there's times when the things are set up, when you know what's right and wrong, and you take the easy route or you try to take the lazy route and you do the wrong thing. It's just like that's why I was argued that statement, Because that's where my integrity and ethics came into place, cause it's like this is what I knew. These are the foundations of what was right, how to be successful, and if you steered off of that knowingly, you're gonna face that Well in.
EldarUK, joe, they call you the type of guys that you are a good egg.
ToliyOr a proper chap.
EldarProper chap. You do a good egg, joe. A good egg, a good egg, a good egg.
ToliySo, toli, yeah, I'm in a position to probably starting to talk about the small things. We talked about some of the big things, so I guess part of my understanding or realization is that, myself included, always have big goals for big different things, but there's never been a focus or an emphasis or an understanding of the importance of a lot of, I guess, what's labeled as the little things, and I probably think that, like I think the little things live in this place where he calls the shadows of no one's looking.
EldarBut you're doing the right thing in integrity. I think the small things are there. If you do the small things right, you can extract probably the biggest lessons. Yeah, but I also think and develop a good character.
ToliyYeah, exactly that, and I think that a lot of the small things they will. Instead of you being like at level zero, for example, you're nobody, for example, or let's say you're extremely poor and you're desiring to be this rich mogul or something right, if I think you do, if you focus on the little things, I think what happens is that you will naturally grow into the big thing that you're probably ought to do.
EldarThat's interesting then. That's very interesting then. So what you're meant to be doing, right?
ToliyYeah, what you're meant to be doing by having a focus on the little things, but the difficulty, I think in general in society is it's a convinced ability to focus. Yeah. No one says like hey, what's your goal? What my goal is to get good sleep. Who do you hear that talks like that? No one says like yeah, yeah.
EldarLet's reduce ourselves to the smallest things right, yeah, it's always reduction. Every time I eat, I'm going to take my time and chew and chew. Yeah, like Joe does that really well, fucking shit.
ToliyYeah, like who actively talks like that and says that as their goals. No, they have. It's always a big, lofty goal, it's always a big thing that you're going towards. But the focus of those small things and the magnitude of them all together not really like individually, but the magnitude of them together they like comprise of who you are as a person and like how you act, how you think, what you do, and I think that they will help shape like what you're supposed to be doing, like what your purpose is.
EldarAnd, obviously, if you're doing what you're supposed to be doing and your purpose, then you're going to be happy as a result of that.
ToliyYeah, and that is going to be the big thing that you'll get without desiring the big thing when you have none of the little things required, for example, to be that thing.
EldarSo would you say that the happiness lives in the paradox?
ToliyWell, in this case I think yes, but again, it's very hard to get the mental shift to buy into those things, because how can you get behind and how can you work hard for little things? That's what people have, I think, a very hard time committing, and one of the examples I was bringing it up there is, you've seen, like the Karate Kid movie, sure Right, there's also a lot of lessons in that too, of like, when he thinks he's coming over to do, like chores, different things while he's learning karate the whole time and he didn't understand all the little things that he was doing and how that was progressing to what he ought to do. And he became very good at what he did without doing that big thing Right, like he ended up getting what he wanted by not just having this big goal of something and going about it, and like it was almost a very present in the moment thing without him knowing it, like he didn't know what was happening to him.
JoeBut he felt like he was being punished in a sense where he had to do this shit. He didn't want to do it.
ToliyYeah, and the only reason he was doing it was because the master in the beginning he flashed his skills. The kid was like, oh, shit.
JoeThere was an outcome he wanted. Look at him Like he's nasty Right.
ToliyAnd then that's where I think there was probably blind trust Right Like he was blindly following him, but it's not, though, right.
EldarHe was hooked by a very specific thing.
ToliyYeah, but what he was going to do from there, like he didn't know how this was helping him or what this meant, but he was doing it because he saw a flash of like expertise, of what he wanted, Right.
ToliyAnd then what happens in the movie is that his ego flares up and he's like yo, I'm done with all this shit. Like I want to actually learn karate. Like when are you going to start teaching me this? And then the match is like what are you talking about? Like you already know all this. And then he's like I don't know anything. I know how to wash your cars or paint your fans or paint your house, but I don't know how to do karate. And then he shows him the movements that he was learning and the muscles he was also building while doing those things and how he was able to be really good at it without doing it. And I think I was telling all that. I think in the movie, um, mr Miyagi was waiting until his ego flared up at the biggest to to like to kill it, to chop it down, to prove to him that he was wrong.
JoeWe come at you with the claw. Yeah, black away.
ToliyBut what?
Joedid we come up to you.
ToliyThe claw.
MikeYes.
ToliyYeah, yeah. So I think, like that, that that whole thing is just like, uh, it, it. It kind of helps depict all that you know, um, but again, yeah, I, I, I, I, I don't know, when people um or like, why people stop value valuing, like the small things the, the small things, and I, I, I understand how you could not value maybe one thing, right, yeah, but I, but I don't know where people stop valuing, like the, uh, the magnitude of all the little things together.
ToliyThat add up to a yeah, I'm not sure why people don't like. Uh what?
Joedo you remember earlier I said when I was in college I wanted to be either an editor or a you know something to do with filming.
Learning the Small Things
JoeI went to film school and what did I say the first semester? I was like this sucks, I'm taking a, I'm taking your screenwriter course. Who the hell wants to write stories? I'm not a writer. I don't want to write about. I don't know how it screenplays. This is terrible. And I was ready to walk away. And then the the advisor said, explained, explained these.
JoeYou get a, a general sense of production. You know, learn about everything, so you know how it all works. So when you do show up to work in the field you want to work in, you know how the whole team works as a whole. You all have to work together. So if you came in just wanting to do, let's say, sound, you don't know how the camera department works. You don't know how actors work. You don't know how following a script works. You don't know how producers work. You don't know how anyone works. How are you going to be productive and work and work with other people? I needed to learn all the little things, all the things I didn't want to be a part of that built me into that one you know solid structure that I was able to enter.
EldarSo you see to his argument. He's also saying, though you weren't concentrating on the small things? No, you didn't even know they existed, yeah. Nor did you think that they were popular or important. Yeah, Cause you only had one thing in mind you wanted to run around with the camera. Let's just say like what is this nonsense? Right Up until somebody actually was educated on this stuff was able to explain this to you.
ToliyYeah, yeah. And again may maybe like the magnitude of all the small small things never added up or never found importance, because there was only a magnitude being placed on the big thing, that was very vague, that didn't require any kind of explanation or didn't require any thought like putting into it.
EldarYeah, you know, but then it's so. Everything is supposed to be this way. Then those who get it will reap the benefits of being a good egg and being in positions where people esteem you and see you as equal and give you the chance, or you're going to be that person who's arrogant, that was going to just constantly jump from one place to another, you know, like an idiot, like a loose cannon.
ToliyYeah.
EldarYou know, and your ego will never settle down and you will just be, you know, dreaming big but never getting anywhere.
ToliyYeah.
EldarYou know, yeah.
JoeSo that's called ending up with like 30 cats in your apartment. Oh shit, no relationship.
EldarNo job, yeah. And a bunch of conspiracy theories that everything's planned against you. You've made up certain things, yeah.
JoeThose people exist and that's fine, yeah.
EldarThey just can't be teaching your kid in school. That's all that is.
JoeNo, being a chat room with my kid, though, better. Oh, I'm going to monitor those chat rooms, yeah, yeah, see a lot of cats in the background. Who's this guy Sitting in his underwear? Ishka, you haven't talked in a while. You're that guy with cats in the house. Yeah, Mike.
EldarSo what are we? You extracting anything from this thing? It sounds like, if you know, just to quickly say it is just look the smallest shit, that's most most. We think they're like tedious or annoying actually bring the biggest, the biggest rewards. And only the people with some humility understand that right With integrity and stuff like that, understand this type of shit, and that's the path to be to live in a happy life. Otherwise kicks up. You ought to suffer for a very long time.
MikeWell, I think, I think a lot of times, almost always, everything in philosophy is very paradoxical, you know, I mean a lot of times I keep coming back to that and I think this is another one of those big things, right. If you want to run a mile. You'd love to do one step at a time. You can't run a mile without doing one step. You can't do anything without just one step. One step, the first step, and anything you know, saving a dollar if you want to save a million, but why is?
Eldarour focus runs amok. Our attention runs so, so crazy that we should be focusing on the first step. Right, make sure we don't fall over, but like no, I want to do 10 miles right away. How do we like, how do we go wrong to completely abandon our own path to happiness, like you said, which is very paradoxical, right? The philosophy is rooted in all these paradoxes. Yeah, it's only paradoxical is because we got it wrong, right?
MikeIt's the paradox.
ToliyWell, yeah, the results are the results, yeah.
MikeI think it's because there's no instructions. You know, again, keep going back to that, but it's no instructions and we always try to wing it. You know, like the parenting thing, joe's going through that now, right.
EldarYeah. Which instruction book is he reading?
MikeWhich one are you reading? Yeah, he's no way.
EldarHe tunes in every week to allow you know. You know, I need him to confirm that. Yeah.
MikeNo, he listens, yeah, he listens. He's not listening to the kids, he's listening to the adults. You know, it's something you guys were saying earlier about. The kid goes to school, yeah, but the first year is five years. The kid's not in school. What is the parent supposed to teach the kid? He's not. The parents not supposed to teach him like one plus one, two plus two. I think it's. The goal should be to help the kid to understand how to properly navigate life. And then you go and you live your life right.
JoeDevelopment. I'm learning this now, but what we have now compared to what our parents had when we were kids, it's like they had to pull a book out of off a shelf or out of a library. They couldn't go on the internet.
JoeThey couldn't they didn't get the tips. I'm on an app that tells me when my son is going through development leaps and what they're gaining, what you should do to enhance the development and what's most important at these windows. So I'm following guidelines that are available to me now that we're unavailable to everyone, and I'm going to take full advantage of the knowledge that's out there. You go have to kind of go out and sift through it and go through a lot of it. Alana does a lot of it and brings stuff to me and I'll implement. You know, she's kind of like I would say, spearheads that stuff. I spearhead a lot of other things Through the muscle.
JoeYeah, my man got a passport already. Global entry. He got a bank account.
PhillipHe has all these In Switzerland.
JoeEverywhere, Anywhere I could, you know, stash away. He's got a college savings plan already. Like you, know all these things and we all have our strengths, but yeah, there's no guide or plan. There's no guide.
MikeBut I do think there is, like the way I was just like kind of visualizing it in my head, is that, like we're all living life right and there's a certain tool, tool set that we carry. Some of us have those tools in certain areas, some of us have them in others, or some of us don't have them at all. But I think the goal is is the preparation, you know, to have a certain tool set right, like the mentality of like hey, that you know, which is obviously very advanced, but like I know that I know nothing. Right, asking always questions. Right, that is the tool that helps you to go further in life, so you don't end up in situations where you're doing things that you have no reason to do or you don't know why you're doing them, or you're getting situations that are not pleasant.
Teaching Critical Thinking and Problem-Solving
MikeAnd I think the toolbox of life I mean to me it's more I'm learning about my own self is the, is the, is everything that's rooted in philosophy, is like really trying to understand why we do what we do, how we do it, what's the right way to do it so that we can enjoy life. You know, but that's not a common thing. You know that toolbox is not something that, like you know, like you see it in, very simply, you have, like I think I probably are probably more problem oriented solving, right, I don't, something happens as a problem.
MikeMy initial response is not to panic. My initial response is to understand it and how to go around it and how to resolve the situation versus other people. They don't have that tool in their toolbox, right? That's just one example. But they start to panic, they go crazy, like you know, throwing a fit, losing their heads. Why? Because they never developed that, they never learned that, they never.
MikeI don't know, maybe my dad taught me that, you know, he's kind of crafty. So that's true, he is, he's really creative, you know. But I guess some people and I think that's also maybe some philosophy in there too, of not to panic, not to like lose your head and to see the situation for what it is, see what you can do, can you control it? Can you not control it? Should you stress out, you know, or should you not stress out? And I think those are the kind of tools that you want to have in your arsenal for life. So then you go and you navigate that, that job or that career, that relationship or the entrepreneur thing, but you navigating with a certain tool set of like hey, this is how I want to do it, this the way I want to do it.
ToliyYeah, I feel like it almost sounds like, when it comes to kids, like this is the way that that's like like I'm thinking about. It's like it sounds like the best thing to do is to not teach them anything like anything, but you could do something that could teach them everything at the same time. Right, like yeah.
MikeYou get out of their way.
ToliyWell, if you teach somebody like like what, one of the biggest things I feel like that goes wrong is that, like your ability to like learn or deduce, or to the just like that whole process of learning, can you teach somebody, can you teach a kid just how to learn, right, because, like, if you don't like there's something specific, like like there's going to be plenty of like for the majority of things that like, for example, that Joe's kid might experience in his life when he's a little bit older, joe's not going to be there in that moment, right? So, like, I think it's almost like the best thing that he could do is to teach him how to make like a right decision, right.
ToliyOr how to do something or how to analyze something. Because if he focuses on teaching him like very specific, like things, he's not going to know what to do by himself, like in those moments, because he doesn't know how to learn. Yeah, it's almost like like learning like, like teaching somebody how to learn properly. Like like, for example.
MikeLike again like we, we, we see the way I just thought about in the part again in the paradoxical thing you teach. How do you teach somebody to learn is actually teach. You don't teach them how you, how you learn, because a lot of times we're teaching them. It's what we learn, what we learned, which is wrong, so that's what we can teach them. How to learn is to not teach them how to learn and they and they're going to figure it out.
EldarThat's another paradox you know how you tell a new parent like that to say that right, yeah, it's very hard.
ToliyBut I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm. We're talking about like, for example, like I feel like a common problem that we we see just in in, in, in general, people like they don't know how to ask questions, for example, yeah Right, Like teaching somebody of, hey, this is the importance of asking questions, but you're not actually teaching him a question about science, for example.
EldarYou're allowing his mind to kind of to roam, but to roam and wonder, yes.
ToliyBut understand like what's what's, like the process, or like how do you actually learn things properly? Well, maybe a good rule of thumb is to ask a lot of questions, not make assumptions, for example, but the opposite what, what, what? You see people make a lot of assumptions. Don't ask a lot of questions, right?
EldarWell, that's why, even when Joe went into his professions, he said yeah, they encourage questioning and asking questions, so they allow that wondering mind to go to learn, so then he can actually get it.
ToliyYeah.
EldarWhy do people?
Toliymake so many assumptions is because I feel like they were never properly taught how to learn and I hear all this BS which we were do you like went over like oh, I'm a visual learner.
EldarYou an idiot. You don't know how you learn.
MikeYou're a dumbass Right.
ToliyLike there's no way that you can tell me how you can learn. Yeah, right, I feel like like equipping them with these kind of tools to understand how to learn, how to deduce, how to analyze, how to critically think yeah, yeah, critically think, so that you're not going to be there for every single scenario, but you can equip them with the best tools to do that correctly.
EldarWell, listen, that helps a little bit, Joe, right, that probably relieves your job or your pressure to be a parent. Like, hey, there's so much to learn. Right, there's so much to teach your kid. But the advice almost here is like, hey, like the only thing that you should be focusing on is probably critical thinking.
JoeYeah Well, critical thinking in the fire department right when I got all the new guys that were coming in they were under me. I needed to kind of give them a base or see where they were and see what they knew. One thing I always threw at them was I would always end. Whatever I said was does that make sense? That question just allowed them to go yes, it makes sense, and I would say okay, explain to me, instead of telling me what tools you have to bring, because that's your position and we're going to this building and you know you need to bring this to that because of that, tell me why you're bringing it.
JoeDon't memorize the tool assignment and where you go and what you do. Don't become the person who memorizes things. Tell me why that position requires those tools and what would happen if XYZ.
ToliyHow many people did you catch that say like, yeah, that makes sense, and then they can explain it A lot.
JoeBut I knew that was coming. I kind of preemptively knew that I needed to shift because in the academy everyone's based off of. You got a book this thick and you operational shit and you just got a drilling in your head 2.5 gallons, second floor, this tool, everything was like so you know, thought out, and you come out and you just like gotta do this, gotta do that, gotta do this. So I would say could you explain to me why you think you need these tools for this? And they will work out something that they haven't been at these fires yet. They don't know these experiences, they don't know these situations they would have to work out and have.
JoeWell, I guess it's for this, this and that.
JoeYeah, you haven't seen that yet, but when you do, that's what that is going to be for and let me show you, let me do a dry run with it, let me show you.
JoeWell, let me show you a video and then you gotta give them a little glimpse. But nothing's gonna be like the moment you're in it, but when you can try to give them all that to so they don't freak out, like Mike was saying, you giving them the tools, the tools necessary to deal with the task at hand when it happens, so you're not panicking or freaking out. You already touched it, you already played with it, we've already practiced with it, we talked about it. Then, when the day comes, when you're there, you're ready to roll. And there was a few like you know that a boy moments for me when I was a new guy, that the bosses from other companies would come by and like the new guy you got, you're doing good, he's doing good, you're doing good with him. You're like, well heads up, move this that like you show that you're really, you're really applying yourself, you're being prepped.
EldarYeah, you know they like to see that you're installing reason and common sense more, so right than anything like yeah, make sure that they're able to reason through this stuff, you know, and really deduce it for themselves. I just go in there blindly like a robot.
JoeYeah, and I think it'd be like mathematical, like this is the formula, this is how you do it, and then now you have what it takes to do it and you go beyond that and you have critical thinking, you expand, you ask questions, you let you know that individual, you know, kind of deduce it, see it outside the box. Yeah, yeah, that's when they really grow and they really grasp it and they really learn and they really expand. You know, become, become something, becomes something, become good at what they're trying to do.
EldarYeah, I think that's the key. I think right there. I think that's what we're talking about. If you can promote that right, hopefully your son will not make conclusions about life and about his own reality in such a way where he has to go and unlearn it all because his ego or his pride flared up, you know, but instead be humble enough to ask good questions throughout the whole process and enjoy and wonder. Let the mind wonder.
MikeWell, promote the curiosity, yeah, Like we're saying promote the curiosity because that's when the person is actually so much more like sponge, like where they're like oh, oh, wow. I really want to know this. I really want to know that they have a genuine interest to find out how these things work, why they work the way they work.
EldarAnd imagine, yeah, and imagine when you get to a place where you finally can't answer for him, right, let's just say he's asking you about fires, right, and you got to a place where you can't and you know you finally found your incompetencies, you know, to the questions that he's asking, then you can go on that adventure together or on their own right.
EldarYou're like, okay, cool, you really want to find out. Well, there's a school for that. Oh, yeah, what are they teaching school? And then boom, boom, boom. Next thing you know you have a genuine person who's going to school for that specific thing, because they really want to find out the next level of it, because you no longer know that you need a professional right, a professor or somebody else who is more competent in that specific field, to help you with your wondering mind. You know, and then you're now finally are in a place where you're supposed to be, because you generally want to be passionate about that. What you were curious about, you know, and I think that if you can get your son to that place, I think you'll do right by him.
MikeWell, I think that's like I think about, like what you guys have been talking about, your career stuff, like I also try to hold bunch of, like you know, different weird jobs, you know, and I always, when I came in, I was like, yeah, I really wanted to find out how these things work, why they work, like I always like I didn't want to just come and do like one job, I really want to understand how the whole things work, because it was interesting to me. And then when I stumbled upon this business, you know, I was actually interested and I really wanted to get to know to the point. I was like, hey, actually I'd like to start a business with this. Like I don't, I think I don't think that just like kind of happened by accident.
MikeI think that was more so, it was my curiosity and being able to tap into it and be like, hey, actually this, this is beyond curiosity. It's like really, really it's way too much fun, you know, like understanding how it works, the way it's done, you know, and the experiences that I was having in that. So I think that's where you push the kids excitement and the curiosity and then he's going to find something that he's really passionate about.
EldarThat's what's going to lead to it, which is ultimately, I think that's the, probably the, you know where we can extract the most out of our own lives and be in a place where we're very happy. You know, hopefully we get paid for it.
Exploring Fear, Failure, and Ego
JoeYeah, that would hold you back. Intimidation, failing, not thinking you could do it, or it's just looking it coming off as being too hard. You know anything is capable. You're capable of anything.
MikeObviously, there's someone in the world doing it to show you that, but can we know about failure and the other thing you were mentioning, without experiencing it first?
JoeYou can definitely fear failure without having, to you know, actually experience the failure. You know of making an attempt and failing before you know.
EldarBut without looks yeah.
JoeYou'll stop before before.
Eldarall right If you genuinely curious and you're on this adventure of finding out and maybe you misstep somewhere, sure, but you like, oh, I didn't know it, I didn't know that this was there. You know what I mean? You kind of just failed. Picture yourself up, you kept going. How would you like? I don't see a scenario.
MikeI feel like, yeah, that that failure thing, now that I can't explain it, but I feel like the failure is a byproduct of some, somewhere we were wrong Before. It didn't exist naturally on its own.
EldarWe weren't properly engaged in it. Yeah, we weren't properly explained that failure is also part of the process. It's a hypothesis, right?
JoeYeah, when you fall, you get back up. Yeah, this is what's going to happen. Don't let. Don't let that fall make you stop.
EldarWell, yeah, At the end of the day, what do you want to do? More, right? Is your fear holding you away from continuing your journey, or is it still fun and enjoyable for you to discover what it is that you went to discover? If it is, let's keep going. If not, gigs up Next.
JoeWhat about dating, though? Because you know, dating is that huge fear of rejection, but?
Mikethat fear of rejection only happened because you experienced it but you experienced it because you came in with the wrong, unrealistic expectations, but also not being informed about the truth of how things work and making your assumptions.
JoeSure, but not everyone can grasp it or understand it before they get into it.
MikeYou know, like no one's a player or a perfect habit, why would you make assumptions if you're not fit to make assumptions on something you don't know?
JoeI think because everyone's a noob. No matter what, when you start, you're a noob.
EldarYeah, but why are you making assumptions as assumptions?
Joethat you're a noob.
EldarNo as assumptions that you're going to have with particular outcome.
JoeWell, when you start and you make an attempt and you get a reaction, that builds that. That builds that Confidence.
JoeNot that confidence, either the confidence or the lack of Doubt, or yeah, just like fear, the doubt, or fear of it happening again, because it was an unwanted experience, it was a bad experience. So the reaction whether you get a good response or not is going to kind of like base your progression and whether you are the type of person that are going to keep attempting and trying and trying and trying, no matter what happens, and you know that failure is part of it and the rejection is part of it, and don't take it personal and you'll get better. And as you do it, it's like sales, right.
EldarWell, I mean, I think that again. I think that if you're teaching your kid the process of something that you already know of life let's just say you know whatever it is that you're teaching I think you have to incorporate the fact that sometimes you fail and you explain the failure the best that you could. So when you come across and you guys both failed on this journey, like hey, look, remember, I told you about that thing, that happens, this is it. We failed, but then part of failure. Right, what do we do? There's a couple of options here. We fail Like, yeah, we don't want to do this anymore because we didn't like the way we feel it. We stop. Or we failed. Why do we fail? Right, we have to go through the process now, through. Another journey is to find out oh, what happened here? Let's see if we can revisit the situation, relearn something, rethink something. Did we not think things through? And try this again. What do you want to do? So?
Joedo you need a guide through life to prep you for that actual experience, or can you be an individual without that person guiding you through that, and can you go through it yourself and the guide you?
Eldarcan, you can, but at the end of the day, right, like I think that we're trying to find out how to pass on knowledge, proper knowledge, sure, like we're totally talking about maybe critical thinking, most important things in life that after you've installed that or introduced that, that that individual now uses that tool going forward in life and that's the guide.
JoeYeah, you know what I mean. I know, growing up I think that my guide was my siblings. I watched them set up, break down, fail, succeed. I learned all my. I learned a lot from watching before I made a jump, Like I was just kind of using everyone else as a, as a backboard and I kind of was navigating through other people's experiences, so I didn't really have to spend that much time investing in what they had to do. I could learn it by just doing what I was doing and watching what they were doing. And that's why I watched a lot of reality TV, like real world. Yeah, yeah, I watched these seven strangers interact within a matter of four months in a couple episodes. You know, sitting, sitting down watching it. You could see the whole little life's transform and all the like the reactions they get. Very short periods of of of attention is needed and you gain.
Joeyou gain some knowledge.
EldarBut you thought you introduced failure. Yeah, and to our equation yeah.
MikeI mean the. The failure exists because we miscalculate, but we miscalculate because we assume that we know we can't make those like the. We get in trouble. Those things happen. Not that we won't fail, but our expectation of the failure is wrong. Like if you're trying to dunk and you're trying to touch backboard, but if you never did it, should you be upset? If you can't jump that high, if you've never trained it?
Eldarif you know, yeah.
MikeBut a lot of times, I think, we set up, set again unrealistic goals and unrealistic expectations, and then we fall short and then we develop these fears.
EldarWhere did we develop this attitude right Of setting unrealistic expectations? That you put on these shoes, and now you can jump you know, five feet higher.
MikeYeah, I think it's part of that toolkit that we didn't develop like learning how to like how the world works, how we work, you know, and not understanding that like.
EldarBut on the last, like where did this ego, this pride is born? You know what I'm saying? Like where is it born?
MikeDo you think it's like a protection, pride, ego? Is it a protection from ourselves, from all those failures that we never properly processed or the letdowns that we created? You know what?
EldarI can't look at his protection, I look at his punishment, bro.
MikeIt's calm. Well, it's both it's protection, but it's also protective and a punishment as well. Same. Protection, no, protection is a good thing, no, but protection could be like you could protect yourself, but you stop yourself from growing too.
JoeBut when does ego let's punish, when does ego help you, yeah, when is it a positive thing?
MikeIt definitely doesn't. It doesn't help you, but it's. But it does help you because it's the best you can do in that moment to not what like going to depression and suicide right.
EldarFor example, like you mean it's like a survival, then it's a survival thing.
MikeYes, so somehow like you can't properly process the suffering that you went through, the pain, so like you take an egotistical stance about oh on it.
EldarThat's a sentence then. It sounds like it's better to take a long nap bro.
MikeIsn't that what's happening?
ToliyAnd pride is being like stubborn, like you're going to be a stubborn person because, well, no, I think that these things exist because I feel like people grow up with the perception that not knowing something, or just saying I don't know or not knowing, is a bad state to be in.
EldarYeah, but somebody has to also teach that Pass that on. That's a learned behavior. No, yes, by not knowing somebody's going to shun you, point the finger and say you're a loser.
ToliyYou don't know, see, I'm not sure if it's a direct Okay. So I agree that it's a learned, I think, behavior, but I don't think, I mean I'm not sure if somebody ever says, said like, hey, eldar, if you don't know something about something, right, you should just, you know, make your best guess with it. And it's not okay for you to live in a state of I don't know.
Perception, Observation, and Learning
ToliyI don't think that probably something like that occurred. What I think occurred was somebody perceived something and, based on a perception, made their own conclusion about something, and not that someone specifically told them that same thing.
EldarOkay, I do, but I still think that making the conclusion is coming from somewhere.
ToliyWell, I think the conclusion is your own self making that kind of conclusion?
EldarWhat is the self?
ToliyIt's your perception of how things ought to be.
EldarWhere did that come from, that I mean.
MikeNo, you think it's perception of how things ought to be, or you not knowing how things ought to be? Well, and trying to make sense without actually trying, like a good effort to make sense. Well, you're going in there to fucking fight a fire with a fucking you know water bottle, but some reason you think you can do that.
ToliyYeah, yeah. Well, I mean like I'm not sure about the learning aspect of it, but I'm saying more.
EldarYou have to go through the stages of development and the kid to as to when they start. You know like uniting shapes understanding, shapes, and then slowly to go us like okay, when do they start? You know distinguishing whose mom, whose dad, and then you know judgments and all this other stuff.
ToliyLike to me. The perceptions are huge because people live out of perceptions and they make like conclusions from those perceptions and now they live life a certain way from those perceptions.
MikeWell, who taught us these things? Who taught us how to engage with the world?
ToliyWell.
PhillipI mean us being alive did.
ToliyUs just being alive and experiencing content and experiencing just all different types of things realities being around, other people watching things on TV.
EldarSure, sure. Perception is one thing, but conclusions are another. Right Perceiving certain things is one thing, but then making conclusions right, statements with periods on them, not questions, right. That's why this thing about kids being from two to seven and this questioning stage, is very interesting to me.
MikeI think what you're saying is this is a learned behavior of our parents, Like well, yeah, I think it's.
EldarWhat did you say? I don't know if it's.
JoeWhat? What is what? It's very interesting, to me Interesting.
EldarYeah, that thing, that's where you make it or break it yeah.
ToliyI wonder if it's a characteristics of being a human that, if you don't know something right, that a natural human reaction is to watch someone else do it.
EldarAs to look for the answer.
ToliyYeah, observation yeah, we all learn.
EldarYeah, like, if you Like, Joe just said about his siblings.
ToliyYeah, like, for example, if you, if, for example, we all go to a class right now, some kind of fitness class or yoga class or just whatever, and we're 10 minutes late, right, what do you do? You get into your spots and you start to observe, to see what everybody else is doing and where they're at, and then you start from there.
EldarWell, that's because you've learned that this is what you ought to do in social setting like that.
ToliyBut I'm wondering that if you're a kid and you don't know the answer to something if you don't know the answer to something, whether it's an automatic human reaction to look at somebody else that you identify maybe as similar to you or something like that, like that, to see how they go about doing it.
JoeWell, that's like groupthink, yeah Right.
ToliyYeah, so is that a natural human reaction?
MikeThere's probably some things that are still primitive right Inateness like running away, fight or flight.
JoeYeah, fight or flight.
MikeThose things are already built in. We didn't have to learn those, but also other things that we are, seems like, learning in this observational way. But I think there's some things that are built in and maybe still part of a primal process, and this might be one of those things. Maybe the observation of others, if you observe animals, certain animals, the way they move, they move in certain ways which are, I think, very different and interesting, but they kind of all have the same mentality and so that's Possibly required and I think that sense of power and support is extraordinary.
EldarSome creaks in this forest.
MikeAnd I think this might be our kind of thing too, where I mean I don't know, but it could be like a thing where that's a primitive kind of innate thing that we know.
EldarYeah, the question is where does this learning start? Right or come about, or conclusions are made. Yeah, the deductions are happening.
ToliyYeah, yeah. Like I feel like, even if we don't know something, when and how, there has to be some brain function that it just like lives within us of what to do. And I do think that probably the first thing before perception is made is observation, and then from observation you get perception.
EldarBut do you think that that has to fucking? That has to be like almost evidence to fucking reincarnation of the soul, like the collection of something. That's why he fucking said what he said.
ToliySo why do you think that that has to be?
Eldarreincarnated Because of what you said, because it's like, it's like an innate process that we go through, our soul or our mind goes through, that it knows what to go through already it's inside of us installed.
MikeLike the kid who knows how to breathe or go for the mom's tit when they're born, right, yeah. Somewhere in the bios bro.
EldarIt's in the bios, the computer is like you know you can't erase it.
ToliyIt's there. Yeah, like who taught Archie to raise his leg when he pees. That's right.
JoeWell, I think that all the things out there, you know, we come across inventions and like how do we know to create fire? Or starting from like you know cavemen, to where we are now, you know, was this already pre developed, pre you know, destined to happen the way it's happening? Were we supposed to come up with the inventions as we did, and was everything going to play out that way? They like I've heard you know arguments on sometimes it, you know it goes through its phase, right, we, we, we, we grow as people, we learn. Community comes, goes and then diminishes and starts over again and everything has its own wave and just keeps repeating itself in a sense, I don't know, but it's like we do terminism, the terminism.
JoeYeah, do you do? You? Do you think that these things were meant to happen as they happen? Or are we kind of like? Are we as special individuals that we have this ability? Our brains are where the only species that have this cognitive ability to invent and grow the way we do. Is it just up to us or is it already pre pre drawn out? And this is sort of question of free will yeah.
ToliyYeah, yeah, I mean, I feel like, for humans at least, I feel like we probably have like the greatest ceilings and the smallest floors at the same time compared to animals, right, like I feel like animals don't don't maybe have that like as big of a disparity between animal to animal as there is human to human. But I do think, yeah, I don't think that this is all like completely, all all like pre programmed inside of us. I do think that our mind is powerful enough to create new yeah.
ToliyRight, not, not, not that it's like all like pre made or predetermined to to to do this, so I guess I do believe in free will, like in that case. Yeah.
JoeLike when you need things in us that's never needed to be taught, but then when you have your free will and you have your ability to to learn and grow and develop, that's up to the individual.
EldarYeah.
JoeBut then you know there's people that didn't have that parent, that kind of gave them the tools and structured them. And look at, you know somebody is super highly successful, nobody's that came out of nowhere and kind of did it on their own. It definitely shows us it's possible. Think of your surroundings. We grew up, how you grew up all those factors play a part.
EldarBut this is the nature and the nurture debate.
ToliyYeah.
MikeLife on Nature versus nature. It's all like Nature is all debate. Yeah, it's a tough one, but but then again, sock was around 5k. Right, there go. How many years ago, 5000 years ago, how long was it? We're talking about the same stuff we're talking about now. I mean, we're talking about the same stuff that he's talking about.
EldarYeah, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, I think he was trying to solve the same issues.
MikeWhat has really changed? You know?
EldarYeah.
MikeBesides more, maybe advanced technologies potentially. Human conditions, the human condition Human condition, the human condition and evolution is. You know like it's a slow process.
EldarWe've never seen monkeys turn into humans.
ToliyYeah, we've seen humans turn into monkeys.
EldarOh shit, no, that's good yeah.
JoeMy man on. You know that Russian guy on the bed with his fat stomach out and his mullet and all that.
MikeYeah, he's got all the weapons my man, that's the guy who regressed.
JoeThat's the guy who regressed. Yeah, he turned into a monkey.
ToliyYeah, yeah, I mean yeah, taro are you?
Eldarsaying anything.
ToliyYeah, I feel like all those things that like Socrates said and like talked about and wrote about, I think that the reason that they're still prominent now and are more important than ever and will always be the most important thing is because I think they do put a focus on all the little things and if something's objectively true, it's outside of time.
ToliyYeah, yeah, and those things, those concepts, live forever because they're the truth that every time somebody's born, that if they want to be happy, they need to tap into these kinds of things. There's no like if, ands or buts.
EldarSo tell your dad, joe, that the plastic that he put on the couch upstate is going to disintegrate and be gone. That's not rooted in objective truth. To protect it, yeah, but the Beatles might be alive than Socrates.
MikeThose damn green chairs as long as the what's it called, as long as we have language to communicate, Right.
EldarYeah, I think we communicate. That's the kind of anything that we do too, I guess language is not the only way to communicate. No, so as long as there's people.
MikeThere will always be philosophy.
EldarJust probably yeah, yeah.
JoeWhat do you think AI philosophy is going to be like at some point where?
ToliyThat UFS, tommy, yeah.
EldarTommy was interested in that? Yeah, I thought so.
JoeTommy Spear had that you know he's destined to. You know to break that. He's going to create that crack where the world's come out when he does.
EldarI think he's going to be sent to Mars. Disrupt the world, yeah, with those people Speaking of Mars.
JoeCan you grab my jacket? I don't know where you put it? Yeah, because I feel that this podcast is going to the moon, oh shit and that this is.
EldarYou bought.
MikeMars candy bar.
JoePut something better. The idea is, what I want you guys to experience is what it's going to be like when this podcast, when we're literally it's the most popular podcast oh, you bought a room there. We're pretty much broadcasting from the moon. I don't know if any music's ever ate food from like Ashina food, oh shit. So it's like when this is what they literally eat in space, it's an ice cream bar. Do you ever see these?
MikeI did see how they squeeze out water out of a towel.
JoeYou saw that, saw that. So, there's no liquid in this. It's been like it's basically like dehydrated.
EldarOh, my God.
Types of Space Food
JoeThese are the types of packages and things that you can only bring and eat over there. So I remember having this on a school trip when I was young, and I'm just well, why is it?
EldarIs it because of, like it preserves better? Or is it because it's free space.
JoeYeah, it's freeze, dried, ready to eat space food, because anything that's like that has any type of you can't moisture. Yeah, I won't exist up there. Or just you cannot eat it. You can't eat it. It's the technical science behind it, so how?
Toliydo they consume like water.
EldarAbout to a straw.
JoeThey're like in these little like tubes, like almost like a juice pack. But you know, if you ever see the liquid get out, you'll see like the bubbles kind of like float around. So you kind of have to like I don't know, everything is very particular, you know. Don't don't ask me to really explain the science behind what it is. I'm just I wanted you guys to experience what ice cream tastes like for astronauts when you're in space. Because when this is ice cream, so either we eat it and everyone tries it while we're doing this podcast, or yeah, you want to do it now?
EldarYeah, Open it up and let's. You need a knife.
ToliyWait. So this is ice cream that doesn't need to be cold. Yeah, Doesn't need to be cold.
JoeIt lasts forever, doesn't need to be refrigerated.
EldarIt lasts forever.
JoeIt's like that, pemecan.
EldarI've brought you.
JoeIt's like 70 years so you eat that yeah, you'll be the last person to survive.
MikeAnd so now question do you?
Joealways carry this in your jacket. Just come with treats. You know, I looked at it today. I was at REI. They sell us at REI. I was like this would be fun to bring to the guys to see if they ever tried it. But they have some Marsha. This is the Napoleon three chocolate.
ToliyCan you open it up into the mic so we have some ASMR stuff in it.
JoeAnd then I'm going to break off. The only thing is it's chocolate, vanilla and strawberry. That's fine. Who wants what?
EldarNo matter, doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. Oh, they're like chocolate it doesn't matter, it's not going to taste like chocolate, my man, no, no way. I'll say do you care if I?
Joeuse it. Yeah, I use it yeah.
MikeHow many pigs you go to with that thing?
JoeI clean it. A couple migrants on the way here.
ToliyWait, so this is ice cream that's not cold.
EldarNo, yeah, it's not cold, but it is cold.
JoeWhat do you mean? It's cold. You ever watched the movie Hook? No, no, captain Hook. Hook with Robin Williams. Yeah, captain Hook, you never started either. No, with Robin Williams. No, captain Hook. Peter Pan Hook.
EldarOh, yeah, Peter Pan, of course I did.
JoeThat scene when they're at the table with his no food but they're all eating no. With the years and their imagination, I don't remember. Oh, I think I remember something like this I'm so hungry and they're like there's no food, and then they were just imagining all the food. So when you eat this, I think it's mad cold.
EldarYou could have brain freeze. Oh my God, he'd be the one to get a brain freeze, oh my.
JoeGod Holy shit.
MikeIt's exciting. You've never tried this. I have, oh, you have. I said that.
JoeOh, you prefer to eat this. I did this on a school trip, probably last time I had it. Oh, wow, yeah, but.
PhillipI know it exists.
JoeIt's a cool concept Freeze dried ice cream. Get your pieces, come try it. You got a cookie part. Everyone got like a bottom part.
ToliyThis is definitely not like a dookie.
JoeOh it's not bad. It softens up Once it's chewed on and it's on your tongue and in your mouth it's kind of like what it? It's like bazaar.
MikeYeah, it's good. It's actually tasty.
EldarI thought it was going to be like sand. It's actually an ice cream bar.
JoeIt's ice cream bar.
MikeReally it was an ice cream bar. I thought they did some kind of chemical process it was like dry ice.
JoeIt was just like it was freeze dried Wow.
EldarYou want more. That's pretty tasty. I actually totally want some more. I enjoyed it. That's not bad. Yeah, I think it's. Totallywell. It's an actual like a sandwich thing.
JoeSo now, when you're on the moon broadcasting Dennis Rocks, one of the things you guys are going to be, so it's not going to be that bad.
MikeYeah, not bad at all, It'll be all right. I would prefer to eat this, actually, over ice cream.
EldarYeah, it's not bad.
JoeIt's a little something.
ToliyFor the record, I definitely prefer ice cream, but you know.
EldarNo, I actually thought it was going to be like nasty.
MikeYeah, no, it's good, it tastes good.
EldarBut they can grow on you if you're not picky.
ToliyYeah, like, if you're like very, very hungry, you can, it's good.
JoeWhen I went to Burning man I got a box of the MREs, those meal ready kits from like the military. They basically have like frozen or you know, meals that won't go bad for like seven or ten years and you warm them up and you just look at them and just like, how is food like this preserved to stay and eat? There was a strange time I was eating food out of packets for a week.
EldarAnd why is this? Is everybody doing this, or is it?
Joejust you. Well, in the desert, there's no. You bring your own supply, bring your own water. You bring your own food.
MikeThey have like little stores there, or no?
JoeThere's no stores, you can't buy anything, you can't even pop up things, bartos, oh shit Okay, and if you show up unprepared, you're basically.
MikeI thought it was like a thing where it's not expensive at these festivals.
JoeNo, you can't buy anything. Everything you come and everyone has to be like as self-sustaining as possible.
EldarBut you could bring whatever you want. Bring whatever you want, you just decided to bring this army food.
JoeI brought army food because it's simple. It's easy throwing your bag and you did a whole week. You didn't have to preserve it. I did a week. Holy shit, how was it?
MikeIt was fun. It was a great experience. You were doing like the old hat, banging shit, everything.
JoeNight and day I was partying. I was trying to find places to sleep where there was shade because you like roast. During the day, I was in a tent. I did it wrong. My first time was in a tent. If you try to sleep in a tent during, the day you bake and you're up all night partying. You're trying to sleep during the day. It's like it's terrible. Second time I went, I learned from all my mishaps and I did everything right the second time.
JoeYou still brought the army food. I still brought the army food because it was really easy, simple and yeah, these are the types of things that, like you know, almost like these preppers how these preppers live and can everything and store stuff and meant to last long. That stuff I got you for your birthday. It's like meant to last forever and the food sustain you.
EldarI told you we got to try it when we were very, very old. Yeah, In the 90s I pulled out.
ToliyWait, out of curiosity. How long does I mean sorry? How much does a week supply of that food cost?
JoeAfter COVID they got inflated because everyone wanted it.
ToliyYeah.
JoeThey brought a box of like maybe 15 meals or like a couple hundred bucks. Wow, not cheap. No, it's not cheap, but if you think about it like you go out for a meal, you're gonna spend what 15, 20 bucks on your meal, on one meal. So this is all convenient and built in, and we never saw these MREs, the packets.
EldarNo, I saw them like through the war and stuff like that. Yeah, but they go from it, goes through the war.
JoeIt has everything From your crackers with jam and to your meal, to your dessert, to your drinks, little matches, toothpicks, salt and pepper. It has like a full on everything you need once up shop. How's the taste? Some of them are like really, really bad, and some of them are like, oh, this is pretty good, you're not gonna be blown away like this food that you're eating.
MikeDid you eat it or you don't?
Joeeat it. So there's a packet with this chemical that you add water to and it basically boils like it gets hot real quick.
EldarFrom the chemical.
JoeYeah, so there's a bag with the chemicals and you pour water in it, and then there's the pouches of food. You drop the pouches, sealed in this bag. That's heating up. So you don't need fire, you don't need any ignition, you just need water to ignite the heating element. Wow, and the heating element. You sit down for five minutes. It warms your food up. It's like in a boiling water pot, essentially, so you could have warm food anytime, anywhere. All you need is water. Wow, it's pretty cool, yeah.
EldarThat's sick. I mean yeah, I mean when you're in the field in the army. Right, I was in the war, yeah, shit.
MikeYou're not about to. What about the Mongolia?
EldarWell, you're not supposed to start a fire. That's how you get caught.
MikeYeah, you know smoke.
EldarSo, somebody will know they're making shish kebabs of us Throw them bomb.
ToliyHow many of these meals do you currently have, Joe, in your apartment?
JoeI still have some.
EldarHow many years worth?
JoeYeah. No, I would say just a handful of them, and they're where I hunt, so just in case.
EldarHave you become more paranoid since you had a kid?
JoeParanoid like prep, like prep, yeah, like you know like dudes, they kind of are like you know like safety and no, I mean, I've always been aware.
EldarNo, I know, that's what I'm saying.
JoeLike have you become more?
Toliyor just you know how long ago did your kid get his gun license?
JoeAre we getting it? He'll learn how to shoot.
EldarSerge said he got a little more paranoid.
Navigating Stress and Problem Solving
EldarJoe
I didn't get more paranoid when it came to like survival, because I feel comfortable where I'm at. I just I felt more protective when we go into the streets and all these these electric bikes flying up and down the sidewalks and when your kid they get smashed. Yeah, you know, everyone is running a muck in the city. So my awareness took off on a higher. I'm very hyper aware now when I'm with the baby. Is it stressful? Yeah, it's more stressful because now you have, you're protecting this little life form at all times, whereas before you could walk around with your head in your phone or dilly dallying and you're not really too worried. But then when you add elements like a medallana now I'm protecting a lot on industry and then the dogs and it's a baby. So now you got a little crew, no matter where you go. So I'm always doing that over the shoulder. The head's on a swivel, that's on a swivel.
EldarI mean that's because you live in the city.
ToliyYeah.
EldarYeah, hopefully that'll come down when you move out to suburbs and go into the bird life. Yeah, got to get out. All right, totally. Let's give some final thoughts. Then You're constantly blessing the world with how to get it out, how to make it out of this nonsense, I guess yeah.
ToliyI mean as far as final thoughts, I think that, yeah, I guess, if you don't find value in the little things, I think that you can. I think it's completely fine to make a crack at the big thing that you have, but when it doesn't work out, I guess the challenge that I would have to people listening is to try to ask yourself questions, maybe, as to why it's not working out no-transcript and maybe you'll be able to point to some of the little things that you're probably either not doing or not emphasizing or not currently finding value in it. And maybe, if you start thinking about the more, you might get to a point where you can believe that they have a lot more influence on a lot more magnitude than what you actually think. Then maybe you'll be able to start seeing progress in some of those bigger things that you had by putting the focus on the little things.
EldarNo, yeah, that's well said. All right, I guess my final thoughts on that. Yeah, no, I agree with everything you said, but I was thinking about certain problems that I guess I'm going through, or whatever, at work and trying to come up with solutions, and I'm thinking about them now how I I'm also I mean, I'm guilty of the same thing. I'm guilty of the fact that I'm creating a fast-paced solution in my mind or goal. All right, that is bigger than the small steps that are needed and required to get there slowly. So I'm thinking how I am.
MikeWell, I wonder, what you just said made me think. When you're in pain, will you always resort to doing things like thinking like that, that's what I was going to say, oh you're going to say that.
EldarYeah, yeah, you stole it from me. The reason why I'm doing this is because I'm in pain. I have a fire going on. So, my my, because I'm in the fire, I have to put it out. I have to have the biggest hose and get it, get rid of it. But I don't have the biggest hose. You know what I mean. I have to slowly get, get a drop by drop, get there to get a bigger hose, you know. But yeah, naturally I'm like I want to solve this problem. I have a problem, I identified it, but my mind goes to a grandiose solution, and the grandiose solution is providing me actual stress. My mind, not necessarily the problem itself, which already is identified and needs to be worked on, but now I'm already almost put a timeline in my mind that now I have to go against, and that's pressure, you know. So I'm wondering how I can also apply this suggestion towards this, these things that I'm suffering from, yeah, I feel like, in order to have fun with it.
ToliyYeah, I feel like the focus on the fundamental and the focus on the little things will will solve all the bigger problems over time without the stress and without the timeline.
EldarBut when you're on fire, I think, is when the ego is the biggest.
ToliyYeah yeah, but then I guess the question comes when the ego comes down, maybe a little bit. The question is like are you actually on fire?
EldarYeah.
ToliyOr is your ego on fire?
EldarYeah, right, yeah you know, yeah, it's true, it's true, yeah, so I hope to find those little things that you know. You know the problems that's going on, of course.
ToliySo I don't remember if it was. I think it was Sad Uru or something like that they were talking about, like when people realize problems or something like I think it was him, because I remember him making him to like a joker or something. He was like saying when people realize problems like you know, all of a sudden, like world flips and like you made a joke about it, he was you've been having this problem so long, what's the difference? Another, like you know, yeah, another 10 years.
ToliyYeah, another 10 years. You've already been living 10 years with this problem. Yeah Right, for example, as soon as you realize it's like no, you got to flip everything upside down. Got to get done tomorrow.
JoeYeah.
ToliyIt's over.
JoeYeah.
ToliyIt's like yeah, like right, like that, you know.
MikeYeah, it's interesting, like what you're going through. Like what you're going through I'm also going through with you as well, because I'm in, we're talking about it, we're involved in it and I have a my experience with this. I'm actually like I don't have a problem with it. I have like I don't know if I told you, but I'm not even at the point where I have the mental capacity for it right now because of everything we just went through, like these past you know, a few weeks with everything. So you telling me stuff and I'm like I'm listening to you but I can't contribute anything because I'm fried because of, like you know, it's been very busy. But on the flip side of it, I'm like I'm actually looking forward to doing that road band with you and I'm like, hey, I'd like to get into a place where now I'm calm, that I can actually use my mind and really think about the details.
MikeAnd I'm excited for that, especially like we had a little like yesterday, when you were showing me the road map, like, oh, okay, this is where my mind turns on. I'm like yo, like this is good, this is very good, and it's giving me like a kind of light at the end of the tunnel and understanding, I guess, the severity of them and the importance of actually really slowing down and thinking about it very, very thoroughly. You know where in the past I'd be like yo, let's solve it right away. Now. Like yo, let's really zone in. This may take six months, it may take a year, but when we like, do give it the full crack it's going to be great.
EldarYeah, I agree, because the outcome will be very good. I agree, and when you zoom in on it like that, that's what's exciting.
MikeYes, that's exciting for me, like I'm excited for it, but yeah. I'm not like obviously stressed out about it, Because the realization of what we realized and what happened it's stressful now. Yes, yeah.
EldarAnd then we know that the task of hand is pretty big. It is bigger than us. That's why we feel the way we do.
JoeI think we're always going to face these moments when you're overwhelmed or you think that something's unattainable or you know it's a big road ahead of you and I know that the best thing you can do is not let panic take over. Once panic takes over your brain, you're as good as nothing. I mean, we had a moment when we were younger where we went upstate, where you were spiraling. Yeah, we had to stop, slow down and regroup and adjust and kind of go back at it and it's kind of like a shake you to stop panicking moment and you turned it around and you're able to focus.
JoeSometimes you need someone in your circle that could bring maybe that if they're full and they're calm and then they're ready to take on a little bit of the panic or the fire that's kind of brewing up in someone else's life, sometimes you need a little assistance. So that also is important, having that around you and things like that. But knowing being able to acknowledge and process that is big. If you could do that without losing your head and just taking a second and breathing and all right, let's do this, that's strong, that's important. If you could do that, just get to that point, I think you have what it takes If you just panic and flip out and run around you're in a struggle.
JoeSo maybe when we end this podcast, we'll dish out what's going on and maybe I can contribute.
EldarOh, 100%, we can dish out now.
JoeNo, we don't have a big deal. Let's work stuff. That's fine yeah.
EldarBut yeah, those are my final thoughts. So I was just applying, trying to understand how I can do this, because obviously I can do it and I will do it. It'll get done. The question is, how will it get done? I know I'm off of the challenge. I want to have more fun about it with it rather than making it like pulling teeth. You know what I mean, and if I can accomplish that slowly but surely, that'll be very interesting.
Focus on Small Things, Enjoy the Process
MikeI think the tie with the small things and the other stuff we talked about, it's applying yourself, your character, into that process. So the small things is like, hey, you have to be patient in this. It's small. I guess that's what I mean, the way I understood it when you were referring to small is the virtuous things, the virtuous approach with the patient approach here, that's a lot of people be like that's the small, but that's actually the big thing. And I think, applying, approaching it with who you are as an individual that we know, who always puts time on the side, who always tries to put self-love, not overworking yourself, not being impatient with yourself, respecting the process, I think, learning or shifting from probably stressing out because it's overwhelming, and then remembering the things that you lean on, the things that you always lean on, which are your character, which is a patient, compassionate kind, whatever all those things, and then applying that into this process. I think that's where it comes together.
JoeIf I could add one thing, I know you for so long that the key success for you is as long as you're having fun doing what you're doing, it works out. Your main ingredient, your secret ingredient, is I'm going to have a good time. And if that starts to dissipate from your equation, you know a full part. You know how to have a good time. You know how to enjoy yourself. If you steer away from that, that's when you're out of your element, that's when you're out of your comfort zone. That's when things take over that aren't really that important and not really that big. Make sure, whatever you plan on doing, you incorporate and don't lose the innocence of the fun that you always could bring. That you're like. You know you're in fifth grade type thing where we're goofing off.
JoeAnd to a point where how do you not enjoy, even when things aren't going right, if you're failing or if you're losing money or if things are going to work out the way you did, as long as you are able to laugh and enjoy the process? I think that is your key to success especially you, I agree?
EldarYeah, I agree, but you guys give me more credit than you think. Sometimes I don't have fun and I also forget. So no yeah but I appreciate it for sure. Yeah, the reminder, I definitely do. So, so it's going to be interesting. Yeah, any other final thoughts? Joe, mike, I know I said it, totally said it Big things, small things. The paradox of overall happiness might be in those paradoxical yeah.
MikeYeah, I mean one thing that, like from my personal experience that I'm going through right now, which is, I think, is a positive, which I'm looking at it from the perspective you guys are saying is to look at it from the small thing. You know, so I come to work every day. You know I get my paycheck and I just recently started putting, you know, money away, you know towards towards buying a house, and you know I kind of like said to myself like hey, that I want to enjoy the process of the saving the money and coming to work and earnings money. And like every time it's like a mini celebration every time that I'm able to put my paycheck away towards saving the saving towards the house. Like I'm able to like probably daily or maybe not daily, but like often enough I think about it and I'm like wow, like you know, like I'm happy coming to work and I'm also part of this too, probably. You know like I'm fine tuning the process of how I come to work.
MikeYou know, like one of the days in the beginning I worked too much and then I was finished, I was exhausted, I was tired, I was not happy and I was like yo, I got to slow down.
MikeI was like I got to pace myself, you know, not to overwork and not to then feel like yo, I'm tired, I'm exhausted, like angry or whatever you know. But I think I'm focusing on the small stuff of my day to day, of how I'm working, what I'm doing and trying to enjoy it and have fun in that process as well, even though the big goal right that I set for myself, for example, is to save up for a house, to buy a house. But I'm really like, in this process, as for the past few months, I've definitely feel like I'm trying and I've been doing that, which is focusing on the day to day, those like making sure that I'm having fun, not that I'm like yo, I'm coming to a job that I'm not happy or like I'm doing shit that I don't want to do, but I, you know, that's something that I was thinking about. That's good.
JoeYou're focused on quality over quantity.
EldarWell, yeah, I mean it's becoming a good egg, like you.
MikeJoe, I'm trying to be like you, joe, I mean, I'm listening to your stories in the podcast.
JoeI'm kind of pretty close to where you guys are at and what you're doing, so you know, little by little, keep chipping away.
MikeOh yeah, for sure.
JoeYou got a spoon. Before you know it, you dug yourself out of that jail cell you were in and you got that underground tunnel that my boys in Brooklyn were popping out those guys are killing it. Holy shit, do you think those guys built those tunnels by hand by hand, bro?
EldarThey have a lot of time. They have a lot of time.
MikeThose guys are committed.
JoeThat's when you come. You come down there. You see that guy pop out of the great. Yeah, that was crazy. Oh shit, someone sent me a meme today. It's a happy ground. Happy ground, august. They popped that out. The ground up comes out.
EldarThat's funny, that is funny.
PhillipYeah.
EldarBut y'all, that was a nice surprise. Thank you, bro, Of course, yeah, this is very nice. You know, always invite you and stuff, so you're always welcome, obviously, I know, but I know you're busier now too, so but it's nice to see you.
JoeIt's good to be here. I manifested this experience. I didn't know what the space was going to look like you know your new office.
MikeDope right.
JoeI was going to be here. Yeah, everything is sick. Yeah, you're only progressively, always getting better Everything. You know all these phases, your house, your work, you know these conversations. And look at now, like equipment is sick, podcast sounds sick. You know you trim the fat. Dennis is out.
EldarYeah, your guests are chosen right.
JoeYeah, that's right you got. It's only going to get better and soon we're just going to be eating ice cream sandwiches.
MikeThe real ones.
JoeYou know this is going to be next level. So, yeah, thank you. I'm happy to be here and proud of everything that everyone's built. You know, and you guys are a big part of it too. Like earlier in the other podcast, you're the way you are because of them and they're the way they are because of you. Yeah, and we are all that, yeah.
EldarWe're all important for each other. Yeah, I agree with that statement for sure. Yeah, thank you, joe, for the blessings. All right, cheers you.