Dennis Rox

123. Close mindedness breeds bad attitudes; how to keep an open mind in practical life decision making.

• Eldar, Mike, Toliy, Katherine • Episode 123

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What happens when you let go of rigid plans and embrace open-mindedness? In our latest episode, we explore how staying flexible can not only prevent unnecessary suffering but also open the door to better solutions and personal growth. Through the lens of a friend's journey in building a deck, we highlight how remaining open to new ideas, like adding a sliding door from the kitchen to the outdoor area, can significantly enhance the final result. We discuss the pitfalls of getting attached too early to specific plans and how learning to pivot can lead to increased happiness and minimized negative consequences.

Drawing wisdom from a powerful Chinese proverb, we delve into the importance of patience and the dangers of premature conclusions. You'll hear thought-provoking reflections on material desires and how conscious choices can lead to more mindful decision-making. Whether it's building a deck or navigating life's challenges, staying open-minded and asking the right questions can help avoid the emotional roller coaster of excitement and disappointment. By examining the roots of our desires and the balance between aspiration and practicality, we uncover how to make more meaningful and fulfilling decisions.

Lastly, we tackle the practical aspects of home improvement projects, emphasizing the value of thorough planning, professional opinions, and humility. Real-life anecdotes bring these lessons to life, showing how learning from experienced individuals and making thoughtful preparations can lead to long-term satisfaction and success. We also touch on the virtues of patience and gratitude, both in personal projects and relationships, underscoring how these qualities can contribute to achieving lasting fulfillment. Tune in for a rich discussion that blends philosophical insights with practical advice, all aimed at helping you navigate attachments and open-mindedness in various aspects of your life.

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Eldar:

On this week's episode. If you don't know how to pivot, you can develop a bad attitude, and that's what we're trying to avoid, I think, and that's what we're trying to understand how not to attach ourselves to certain things.

Katherine:

They say like opinion is like the stupidest form of expression. So taking a step back and then not making a conclusion or opinion on it sounds simple, but it is profound, it is wise, yeah.

Toliy:

It's inevitable to have a bad attitude If you're close-minded, you're saying that it's possible for this process to not happen.

Eldar:

I think it's possible for you to learn and grow enough to minimize the consequences that come to follow. Alright, guys, today's topic is again, we have to revisit this. I guess the cannibalizer of our personal happiness right Is our attachments to things. We have a really good example, live example, of how a friend of ours he happens to be here set out to get a new deck, build a new deck, and I guess with this example you can see different things where you can attach yourself to premature maybe outcomes, things that you might think that are correct or right about the thing that you came out to set out to do, but then, after give it some more thought, you know allowing new ideas to come in. Sitting on it, you might discover something new, but you've already attached yourself to a specific outcome. So it becomes a little bit harder to pivot, and I think a lot of people experience this. I think a lot of people have a lot of examples all of these things right when you know when maybe your mind or somebody else suggested some kind of an idea, some kind of a plan and you've attached yourself to it for one reason or another, you got excited about it, right to our happiness. Because there is something that happens when, as soon as we attach ourselves to a plan or idea or some kind of thing, the open-mindedness to new ideas or counteractive ideas to that plan will get an automatic discrimination, almost Okay. They're like, hey, wait a second. No, this is not part of the plan, please get away. Discrimination almost they're like, hey, wait a second. No, this is not part of the plan, please get away. I don't want to hear it.

Eldar:

And this example of building out a deck we obviously thought about some of the stuff that we talked about the deck, the usual stuff in the deck that you kind of include, like a fireplace, a little nook area for the kitchen area, maybe even a sink somewhere, a little nook area for the kitchen area, maybe even a sink somewhere, you know, a grill in one area. So you don't think about all the other stuff that might also be useful or whatever. And it happens to be that your mom, right, told his mom, suggested and said hey, what if you started with opening up this wall from your kitchen to the outdoor area with a nice big sliding door? And he obviously quickly shut down the idea. He's like, no, no, no, wait a second. This might cost a lot, this might take a lot more time. This is not part of the plan. This is not part of the plan, but the validity of the idea is a good idea. He even admitted it himself. He said, hey, look, the idea is good, but there's a lot of ideas that can come about. So maybe automatically at that moment he's like, okay, this is not feasible, this is not doable, it's not affordable, and all this other stuff to the idea, even though that idea trumped, maybe, the original one.

Eldar:

So pivoting, I think, after you've attached yourself to something, becomes extremely difficult, and if you don't know how I mean we're learning how obviously Tony is doing a good job I think learning how to pivot, catherine, is too right. If you don't know how to pivot, you can develop a bad attitude, and that's what we're trying to avoid, I think, and that's what we're trying to understand how not to attach ourselves to certain things in life that won't cause us more suffering, but more so opens us up to bigger possibilities, more ideas and open-ended things. So then we can be open-minded, right, because I mean, generally speaking, I think everybody would say that yeah, I'm open-minded, and being open-minded is good and open-mindedness is good. You know what I mean, and being open-minded is good and open-mindedness is good. You know what I mean.

Eldar:

So we just watched, I guess, a popular Chinese proverb, is it called, or a little scenario, right, where a 14-year-old boy right In the village gets a horse for his birthday, right, and the whole village is like oh wow, you know, he's got a horse. Look at that. So good you at that. So good you know. And they come to the zen master like what's your opinion on that? He's like well, let's see, let's see whether or not it's a good idea or a bad idea, right, uh, next thing, you know, the boy rides the horse. He falls off the horse, breaks the leg. The whole village is like oh man, this is terrible, you know. And they come to the zen master and they're like zen master, what do you think? He's like? Well, well, let's see. We don't know yet whether or not this is good or bad, all right. And all of a sudden there's a war happens, right, and they take all the kids in the village to war, right, and they don't take the boy because he has a broken leg. He's not useful, all right. So the villagers come back to the Zen masters. Like, the villagers are obviously upset about that. It's like, oh, this is terrible, you know. Come back to the Zen master again. Well, let's see.

Eldar:

So I think this Chinese proverb is telling us what, right, let's not make certain conclusions about the world. Let's see where it's going to go, let's see how it turns out. Let's see how it plays out, because we really don't know, you know it turns out, let's see how it plays out, because we really don't know. You know, and I think allowing yourself to keep that type of mind, though open-mindedness in scenarios of life right, to some degree maybe exempt us or liberate us from premature conclusions, emotions, feelings that actually take a toll on us, that actually do spend us right internally, right, well, we're constantly on this roller coaster, right, like the boy got a horse oh, excitement, the boy fell off the horse, oh, depression. The war started, oh, again.

Eldar:

It's up and down, up, and it's constant up and down, up and down, up and down in our life, and that's, I think, a lot of the times how we live. Right, we get excited about one thing, we get attached to it. Next thing, you know, we're closed-minded to new ideas, new things, something pivots. You're like, oh, this is terrible, but I already spent so much time attaching my emotions, my feelings, my thoughts and everything my dreams to it. I think we block ourselves to bigger and better, maybe opportunities sometimes. So let's discuss this. How detrimental is this? Is this really the, the beginning of a bad attitude? Is this really the, the culprit of our human, maybe potential?

Mike:

again, it's not the deck, it's not the attachment to that thing. It's a lot of times we go about things wrong. We come up with like the idea we say, oh, I want a deck, right, and we start thinking, okay, I want to and my deck, I want a hot tub, jacuzzi, sauna, like a stove, kitchen, whatever all this. We start thinking about those things, yeah, and maybe my initial thought is yeah. The proper way to say is like all right, I want, I want to deck. How do I go about this with patience, right and virtuous approach? Again, a lot of times we don't approach these things, most things, with the proper questions. We first, we jump like yo, those things, not again those end goals, and not how we're going to do them. If you would have said, yo, you know what, I want a deck. But I'm going to be patient here, I'm going to go find out how long it's going to take. I don't think it works, mike. I'm sorry, I have to push back. You don't think it works.

Eldar:

See, I don't think it works how you're phrasing it. You said statement I want the deck and then be patient. I think that's impossible. What you need to say, right, and I think this is what you're probably leading to, and this is where we can shortcut it there, so we can go to dinner outside.

Mike:

Yes, please.

Eldar:

Yeah, what you want to say is what do I want to accomplish with the deck?

Mike:

Or how do I want to accomplish it.

Eldar:

What do I want to accomplish and what's the best way to accomplish what I'm trying to do with a new deck, right. And then what happens is right. You start asking questions around placement of things, right, like we even talked about the sun, right, how's the sun shading his uh, his area, his deck area? Right, where should a pergola go? Where should this go? You start asking the right questions around that which you want, but it's more so like what are you trying to accomplish? It's not just I want a new deck. No, you're trying to accomplish something. And what is that right?

Eldar:

If you really ask your question, like, what are you trying to accomplish, you start asking better questions and you're going to have intricate details about oh yeah, like I'd like to serve people, I'd like to invite people and host.

Eldar:

Well, I'd also like to host them in such a way where it's convenient for me to take out my food, right, you come to find out he has a bad entrance, right, and we agree that. Look, we've been coming to his house and the back door has a lot of a very narrow space and our shoes because we have no shoe policy homes, right are constantly on the way, so we're tripping and falling, there's no area to put shoes on off and stuff like that. You quickly find out that there's cumbersome things that exist. That is completely outside of your peripheral vision I mean any vision at all Because you're focused on I want a new deck, I want this color deck, I want this color deck, I have to have this but you don't really think about all the functions or maybe the practical applications when it comes to creating something, and I think that's an issue for a lot of us. You know what I'm saying, so, totally. What do you say about your bad attitude about the deck?

Toliy:

What do I say about it?

Eldar:

Do you agree that sometimes, right, when we develop attachments right, they can be birthing our bad attitudes towards something, or they close our minds to new ideas, right, and then you have like everything that I just described, where then you have a clash? Right, on one hand, you're like you're set already, I'm like, no, no, no, I want this. But on the other hand, it's like, oh, there might be a good idea, and now they have to fight each other. Is that a phenomenon? Well, I mean, if so, what do you suggest?

Toliy:

yeah, I mean I, I, I think it's bound to happen that there's going to be some kind of clash if you have some kind of vision and then like, that vision is now changed. But I don't think it's a, I don't think it's an outlandish, like a process to go through, and I think that, um, what do you mean? Outlandish? Like like I'm not sure if there's a way to prevent a transition where it going, where it goes perfectly Well, you don't agree with my approach.

Eldar:

I was building on what Mike said. Right, I said hey, instead of saying I want a deck, but I would like to do it patiently. I said, hey, how about? What am I trying to accomplish? Start with that kind of a question right, it's almost like the first principle, right, approach where, like, what are we trying to do? Start with that kind of a question right, it's like almost like the first principle, right, approach where, like, what are we trying to do? We strip everything. Right, we strip everything and start.

Mike:

Yeah, but even, probably, even before what you're saying, probably you have to ask the question why is that person getting so excited in this sort of specific type of way in the first place, to begin with, about this specific thing?

Eldar:

well, it could be a good idea. Maybe right and and you're original who doesn't want a new deck? Right?

Toliy:

like, if you have a very old deck.

Eldar:

Like it's, it's obvious. Like oh, I want to change that. Like that's old, you know.

Mike:

Like it could be a good idea, but this is a philosophy, like a podcast. So is it a right idea, though, if? If the way that you are like like the thing is an idea is an idea, but if you're already like that, let's, maybe, maybe for this example, but let's say you're already that far gone that you're already building the deck in your head. You already got too far, so the idea might be good. Nobody here is going to say like yeah, totally, getting a sick deck is a bad idea. Yeah, but the way that it was, the.

Toliy:

yeah, but the way that it was the idea was birth right from what it was.

Mike:

Birth yeah, birth it or whatever birth, yeah, birth is that might be the issue oh, okay, it might not be right.

Eldar:

You take you. I took it one step further and you took it even step further reduced.

Mike:

Yeah, okay, that's, that's what I think.

Eldar:

Okay, because you're almost saying that hey look, elder, if you didn't figure out why the attachment happens in the first place, you're already lost, like you're. Well, you're almost saying that hey look, eldar, if you didn't figure out why the attachment happens in the first place, you're already lost.

Mike:

You're a goner, you got to think right. Why do we as people, a lot of the time chase excitement? Yeah, because we're not extracting something in the moment. And that excitement, it gives us a lot of fuel. It's very short-lived for sure, right, but we're like yo new deck.

Toliy:

Oh, a lot of fuel, it's very short-lived for sure right.

Mike:

But we're like yo new deck or a new car, it's a quick wow, it's gonna look this, this good, it's gonna be this fast, it's gonna be this, this and that.

Eldar:

Like yo, we're hype about it you know, you're already hosting everyone in your head.

Mike:

Yeah, you put 40 people on the excitement. I'm not sure, is it?

Eldar:

filling some kind of gap. I think you.

Toliy:

I think you might be onto something well, I mean like there's levels to go, like any material possessions are filling some type of gap, right, but does it have to? Well, I think Then you're talking about like, then you should go and be a monk.

Eldar:

No, we're not saying that. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're not saying go be a monk and be a recluse and denounce everything. No, but I'm saying that there's levels to it.

Toliy:

I'm not like. My whole life happiness was not like in this deck or like.

Eldar:

No, it's definitely not. But I'm telling you that and you're doing really good at this. You're becoming better and better at this, and Catherine is too right when you guys don't put all your chips on one little thing or material thing. But I think a lot of people would do this. A lot of people will throw a crazy fit, a lot of people will cry over shit like this no, no, but mike.

Toliy:

Mike is saying that the idea of this deck is birthed from idea of me of lacking um some.

Mike:

Well, it could be, it could be. No. I said in short, I was. I was saying in general that the excitement, well, any showing.

Toliy:

Well, yeah, that that's what I'm saying, though, like any excitement about any material object is birthed from a non-virtuous place. You were saying before that to want something, but then that, but go about in a virtuous way, right where, like I guess, like in in the in virtues they're like wanting is not like a. It's a contradiction, yeah, to begin with. So that's what I'm saying is that then you would have to go like to the place of, like a monk or something or like where you're, if that's the way you wanted to live no, but if you're talking about virtuous way, yeah, like that would be the virtuous way, but we still choose to not be fully, I guess in that kind of life, right.

Eldar:

Yeah, but we're trying to still carry more of a realistic expectations with ourselves, with the world, with everything else.

Mike:

right, we're trying to live in society but also have the ability to have that virtuous approach in the areas that we no, we can control.

Eldar:

We can control or we choose that are important for us right.

Mike:

Maybe this example with a deck is not that important for you. Yeah, might be important for me, for example, or something else for you. For me it's we all have different things where we choose to be like yo, you know, like all right, you know, alcohol is bad for me, but I'm going to drink, even though it might, might, not be good for me. We make the choice and we kind of we live with those choices, because we don't want to become monks and live recluse. We want to find that balance where we can enjoy things that life has to offer but also be smart about it too.

Eldar:

And I think recluse monks actually got it wrong. I think that Buddha, actually Buddha, when he really enlightened himself, he understood the middle way. He understood that the most important thing to live a happy, good life is to find the balance between the two yeah, between the two worlds. That's not to eat one grain of rice every day just to sustain yourself and be alive. Yeah, you should thrive.

Toliy:

All I was trying to say before was that, like, I think it's very difficult to have the like. Is it fair to say that, like I had an attachment, the like um? Is it fair to say that, like I had an attachment, yes, but only once. Like, like when we had this discussion to begin with, if the idea was like turned down or something like that, then that's it like I wouldn't continue having a uh um attachment to it, right. But like we saw if, like the material was in stock, like how long it would take to get it, like what, what it right. But like we saw, if, like the material was in stock, like how long it would take to get it, like what it costs, right. Like if that was available to build it, right.

Toliy:

Like we went through all that. So like, my understanding is that when we're going through all that, like this is what we're doing, so like that, that, like that, that to me is like perfectly normal to be like um, accepted, and now, like um, almost like some level of attachment to to be formed. And then I felt, if there's a pivot for maybe something that could be like bigger, better, better, but would take more time, that is also. I mean that is a like, no, like I'm I. I I wasn't trying to say that, that that is like a bad thing, but I'm saying that like the trend transition between there's in that scenario.

Toliy:

There's initial reaction it's not music to your ears well, the initial reaction is like there's two, two different people, right, yeah, and now those two people are kind of in like a war and they have to see, well, okay, like, whose points make more sense? Right, yeah, and that could be different things. Right, like, like, uh, like, for example, the person who's like I don't know, couch surfing, right, for example, right, or like, maybe homeless or something like that. Right, if they have an opportunity to like, right away, go into like an apartment or be homeless and not have food, for example, or like whatever it is right for multiple like years, it may not be a smart idea to go with the long-term outline I'll look there but to get right away, for example, into like shelter and like a apartment, for example, or like, um, something like along those lines, right, like, like.

Toliy:

I think that those long-term or short-term outlooks are assessed based on what the situation is right, yeah, um, uh, in my situation, like we're talking about here, about like a luxury, right, we're not talking about a necessity or something that's going to make you live or not live. It's not a need, it's definitely a want, it's very much a want. So to me, there's going to be that war between the short-term person that was thinking about that and now a new idea that's being introduced which I think if you give the short-term person maybe like some education or explanation or some time, I think that they will come around and if it's not a need, right, unless they're an idiot, they're, they're going to agree with with that other person. But I think it's very difficult for there not to be any like a time to like to digest that and understand that, but to right away like, flip a a switch when it, when it's something that like maybe pertains you more personally than like um, not not you. I feel like in those scenarios that that's all I'm saying and I like and like, but I understand the whole bad attitude thing and like you definitely right away don't have like, hey, I'm excited about this, yeah, why not?

Toliy:

well. Well, because you don't understand it yet. So it's like when you don't understand it yet, you right away have more negative thoughts because it's like, hey, you're not understand it yet. You right away have more negative thoughts because it's like, hey, you're not getting what you do understand and what you did want right. But now, after explanation and after education and after understanding, now what you actually want could be this more longer play thing and now, because of that, the outlook can be better on it, because now you understand it and you can realize that it's actually better, and now you almost can laugh at the short-term person, like about the scenario. I've heard the question when you were talking.

Eldar:

Is it premature, then, to introduce new ideas, right, like we talked about breaking of the wall, for example? Right, and your idea instead of building the deck, we need to first break the wall, right? Is it then premature to bring up those types of ideas to an individual who has already attached themselves to a smaller idea? Let's just say, quote unquote we're judging here right Of just building a deck.

Toliy:

No, no, no, I don't think it's what I'm saying is you know where I'm going with this? Well, well, well, no, I I don't think it's premature because, like um nothing said, it's tone yet well, well, well, no, it's not even that. It's not like um that new idea if it's a good one, right that person develops and grows into it right away no, no, no, it's not about that. Person grows into it right away. By you introducing that idea, you give the opportunity for the person for a growth right that's what I'm saying no.

Toliy:

No, but I'm saying that you give the person the opportunity for growth and then from there, should you be doing that well, I mean, I don't see why not. Then you give them an opportunity to make a choice. What?

Eldar:

if there's more growth, that they could, if we just built the deck. Would there be more growth post the deck? Now you, you built the deck, right, you got the deck and you're like yo, shit's sick, right, but then. But then in your mind it's like, oh shit, yo, what about that wall? What about that sliding door? Oh, oh, this fucking entrance. You know what I mean. Like, where would you learn more? I mean, I, you know what I'm talking about.

Toliy:

Yeah, but you're like, I feel like the way that you're saying is valid, but it's a way of like learning with more, like suffering or more.

Mike:

It's the Jim Carrey thing? It's, but it's a way of like learning with more, like suffering or more. It's the jim carrey, it feels like the jim carrey, it's the get rich faster.

Eldar:

Yes, so you could realize, actually, what's up. This ain't it? Yeah, correct. This is what I'm saying, like, okay, you want it, let's just do it yeah, but those are two.

Toliy:

But yeah, but yes, but in that example it's outlining people that are not willing to stop and listen yes, and you're saying that you're willing to stop and listen.

Eldar:

I mean, of course, bro, this is good.

Toliy:

That's a good attitude, I know, but like you have to be an idiot and he's talking to the idiots who are saying no, no, no, like Jim Carrey, what are you talking about? I'm just going to get it done.

Toliy:

I want the money. I don't want to hear it. Yeah, like that. Okay that If you're not willing to stop and listen, that's what I'm saying. If you pose a person a question and if my thing was like, hold on, you're doing my head, let's just build this deck and forget about it. If I said that, bye.

Eldar:

Were you saying a little bit.

Toliy:

No, I was not saying that a little bit.

Eldar:

Fine, how does that individual know? Know, though, that you actually are open for suggestions. Well, you actually did say you, you were kind of open, but you kind of closed you play coy a little bit.

Toliy:

What do you mean? I was asking for help the whole time fine, but you did.

Eldar:

You were ready to take your shirt off and start breaking the deck this weekend, tomorrow.

Katherine:

That's honest basically tonight, like tomorrow's, already too late yeah, that's good all right, good attitude. No, he explained it he explained it well, listen.

Eldar:

He said listen. If I was the person who was not willing to listen to new ideas, then I'm showing you that I'm not willing to learn. But if I am, then give me the chance to learn, because you can potentially open up my mind and grow with ideas versus getting stuck.

Toliy:

If I was saying, like you guys are complicated ideas, all these like doors and entrances and stuff like that. Let's just build a space, right, it'll work fine. Like just forget about that, don't worry about it. If that's the person's attitude, then yeah, then you have to send them packing.

Katherine:

It's also fair that he needs a time frame. Everyone's just going to shift right away, Like okay, yeah, let's do that.

Toliy:

He needs a little bit more time for that idea to settle in, to visualize it, to be comfortable with it, I think anyone does, because I think that in that given moment it's an introduction between a short-term play that was potentially happening, based on a particular desire at play, to now. But then it evolved Right, yeah.

Katherine:

Now it's a bigger project.

Toliy:

Now to a new person, and I'm guessing, like you guys were saying, these examples could have happened to, like now it's a bigger project. Now to like a new person, right, like like and and and, and. I'm guessing I mean like you guys were saying, these examples could have happened like were probably happening with the different renovations, for example, like within your house, or maybe like you guys first want one thing, yeah, and then you start thinking about it and then you have a choice okay, yeah, we'll build you this little area to work in, right, like we could do that or we could wait and we could do this, right. And then, like you guys need to make those choices as to like I have an example right now.

Eldar:

Do you?

Toliy:

want a new fridge, or do you want you know something else?

Eldar:

Yeah, I have a new example right now. Catherine wants to renovate the downstairs bathroom. I'm for it, but she wants to renovate the bathroom. And what do we do in that bathroom? We bathe the dogs and it's a dread. I don't mind bathing the dogs, but I mind bathing the dogs because my back, her knees, her back and it hurts. So I said, if we're going to renovate, I want to make sure that it is practical for our usage, right? If we continue to have dogs in our lives and we're going to bathe them, we want to be comfortable. So I'd like to build it the right way, right. So what I'm saying is that thinking and approaching projects, ideas, in such a way of more practical terms, practicality, I think, at the end of the day, wins over the I want a new bathroom, right but but a lot of people.

Mike:

we're programmed. I want to solve problems. We want yeah, I guess.

Eldar:

The new bathroom, new nice tile, beautiful mirror, beautiful sink, the sequence of events. I'm going to get the low back pain, bro, and I'm not going to want to wash my dogs.

Mike:

Yeah, no, but like yeah, the sequence of events is wrong. We have the idea, okay, which is fine. I think, how ideas is fine. Sequence of events, correct, but we get excited about I'm not sure how to call those things. Instead of getting excited, like you were saying, like asking questions. Okay, I want to do the deck. Okay, let me think what I want to have in there. I want to have this and that Versus like in this example. We're like okay, let's go look online. Is the wood available? You know?

Katherine:

uh, let's go, let's go we already?

Mike:

we already, let's go see if your dad is available. Right again, instead of the questions that should be asked first.

Eldar:

Yes, which is slow down, think but you know that I did that, I tried doing that, I tried doing that, but I also have a hard time expressing these thoughts in this way that like look, I want to make sure that the function, I want to always install the function.

Toliy:

And I said this. You've heard it.

Eldar:

You know I'm like function, because the function will fuck you over 10,000 times more than aesthetic. Yeah, of course it will. Every single time you have to go through a little narrow thing and take off your shoes, you're going to be tripping over You're going to sprain your ankle. Somebody's going to sprain their ankle and fall.

Mike:

You spent all this money and you still did it wrong. That's right. And then you're going to be like bleh, and then you're going to be learning a lesson.

Eldar:

That is a rough regret. Very long time, yeah. So again, practicality, yeah. And then, if I'm a man of that right, how can I go against those type of practical ideologies? I can't. If you propose to me and I'm listening, paying attention to what's being proposed it's a no-brainer. You know his mom's idea just turned into 5X or 6X. When it comes to money, when it comes to time, effort, you know what I mean, everything you know what I mean. But it's something I can get behind now, because it's really like yo, it's rooted in truth. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, shit, if we sit on it next week, we might come up with some other ideas.

Mike:

I'm just saying that we're realizing that we'll see. Thing, like you started off with, is that we'll see, like, okay, let's not like we already got here. Yeah, let's see what else we can figure out maybe next week we'll be like yo actually. That's right. Let's add this this would be better, right but the clock is ticking let's talk to more people. Maybe professionals can give us more opinions right right, but yes, right, but yes. The clock is ticking again. It's the, it's the it's the value proposition of like instant excitement, that's right, filling that itching void yeah.

Eldar:

Right, and now you have to actually sit down and take a chill pill. Yeah, and that's why when, when we were on the deck, I was telling him hey, we got to get estimates and we got to talk to the right people, now, right, windows guy, yeah, wall guy and all this other stuff, right, he comes back here and goes, yo, what are the next steps?

Mike:

Yeah, I already said, the next steps, because those things they don't scratch enough, they don't scratch enough?

Eldar:

Well, no, there wasn't an itch there, I was just like I want to know what the next steps are, even though I outlined them explained and he said, go like, yeah, I knew clearly what the next steps are.

Mike:

Yeah, go find those free architects. That's right call these people yeah, get estimates all there's guy that he gave you info for like, call the window. I already reached out to him but you see again, your mentality is already like in this situation, you're already thinking okay, not about the deck, but how to actually do. Do the deck, uh, the proper way?

Eldar:

weasel yourself in to still to the deck.

Toliy:

No, but it's different when you're not like.

Mike:

No, I know that I think that's what we're discussing.

Toliy:

Yeah, but are we trying to figure out how to do it for ourselves or when we're not in it but it's for someone else?

Eldar:

No, I think, ultimately we're trying to figure out one ourselves, because you?

Toliy:

have this example.

Eldar:

I have this example, catherine has an example and, trust me, mike has an example too, of course, yeah. We all have these examples in our lives where we jump where we actually needed to sit down.

Mike:

Yeah, you know what I'm saying, absolutely.

Eldar:

I. She wants a new bathroom. I said, babe, make sure the dogs are incorporated. I'm not doing anything until you fix my problem.

Mike:

Yeah, you know what I'm saying. Of course we have a fight.

Eldar:

Yeah, this is a normal thing. We're actually not actually fighting, but I'm saying we have a thing and until we solve it, I'm not doing it. I'm not touching it Because right now we're washing the dogs in the first bathroom and it's terrible it's horrible.

Katherine:

Yeah, it's horrible. We hate it we hate it.

Eldar:

That's why they get washed once every month or two. You know what I mean. I would wash them. We put them we actually tried it out we put them on the jacuzzi. It was a little bit cold that day, but we washed them on the jacuzzi. The thing is the water that comes out of the hose is really cold, so I mean my hands were freezing up and he was shivering, but other than that it's better. But the idea we tried the idea of standing straight and washing them.

Katherine:

It's a night and day situation. Yeah, no problem.

Mike:

My dad uses one of these stools. Oh, there you go, like our board for the mechanic stools. Yeah, it's on wheels, it's tools. Yeah, it's on wheels, it's short, okay, adjust the height. And he washes Teddy on the deck too and he puts him on the stool. No, no, he sits on the stool.

Toliy:

Oh, he sits on the stool, so he's not like bent over. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike:

Pressure on the knees and the back. There you go, and he washes him like that. You could sit on the bottom one as well, even if he wanted to. Yeah. But, he just rides around that little cart.

Eldar:

Nice, yeah, yeah. So this is what we're trying to solve.

Katherine:

Yeah, we have to get creative. She agrees with it?

Eldar:

No, of course, over the years, catherine is becoming more of a practical person, because practicality will beat over any aesthetic that we're trying to.

Mike:

No, for sure, and you get both. We can't get both. If you think about it, a hundred percent.

Eldar:

Well.

Katherine:

I mean, we're blessed to have you know a good contractor. Who can you know reason?

Eldar:

with us and give us ideas and stuff.

Katherine:

You know what I'm saying. Yeah, no problem.

Eldar:

So I'm excited about that. I'm excited about the idea that we can solve a real serious problem. Get the new bathroom and all the shebang, bangs, you know what? I mean you know what, and I'm that and I'm okay with if that that fight takes a year or two. I'm okay with that. I want it right even.

Katherine:

You know one thing I want to say like the, the new bathroom may not even be necessary, it's just little things that I don't know how else to solve. And I'm like, while his dad still has like the stamina and like is okay with it, and still has the, you know the will to work, let's, let's utilize him. So, instead of fixing one thing here, one thing there, let's just make it all new. We don't have to worry about it for for a long time.

Katherine:

You know, yeah, so it's not like we need the bathroom, it's just like, okay, it's a want. These things are not really functioning right let's, let's do it the right way yeah, let's just not want it attach ourselves and then fight over it and what?

Toliy:

what do these things look like? Look like at the pet places when they wash them. Do they have this?

Eldar:

thing they have. Catherine already showed me pictures Amazing.

Katherine:

I have a ton of stuff that I've showed him.

Eldar:

They have tubs that are elevated.

Katherine:

It's an elevated tub. So what I'm thinking right now is in the basement, in the basement bathroom, you can just build an elevated tub. You know, that's it.

Eldar:

But that's the thing. I know that we have this problem now. I want to solve that before I solve an aesthetic problem.

Katherine:

Yeah, my thing is there's no fire. Really, I want to have priorities.

Eldar:

You know what I'm saying now.

Katherine:

Yeah, we bathe them every month, so I think that's probably priority.

Eldar:

The biggest priority. Yeah, that's the one that we should be doing. You know what I'm saying, but a lot you guys don't usually use that bathroom too much, right? We don't. No, we do, but we don't.

Mike:

Downstairs Basement. The basement no.

Eldar:

No right.

Katherine:

Oh, we hang out there.

Eldar:

Yeah, just someone's when you hang out there or if you're chilling down. Yeah, I think if we always fight for the rights, not fight, I think if we always try to pause our minds, sit down and actually think about it, collectively reasoning, our minds will not disagree with what we actually, what's actually right?

Toliy:

I have to agree with that that war between those two people is the act of pausing and seeing who has a better case, but totally like I said, in the Chinese proverb, the Zen master said hey, let's see.

Eldar:

We're not sure yet whether or not this is good or bad, let's see. So try to find a way right now. Maybe you can explain it to the audience. How do you take that Chinese proverb or his approach to life, to outcomes, to news and stuff like that and apply that to yourself so you can not suffer to an attachment or conclusion or closed-mindedness and all the detriments that it brings to our life?

Toliy:

Well, the let's see is is a question that's being asked after an event happens, right?

Eldar:

Well, sure, but I think it's also like it's it's just a general thing where, like hey, like we're not really sure what we're not sure about anything.

Toliy:

Well, yeah, the let's yeah. Well, well, yeah.

Eldar:

But the let's see, I guess mindset is an infinite one.

Toliy:

It could be infinite, yeah, Well, no, it could be, it is right.

Eldar:

Can you be sure? You're asking if? Can you actually be sure of a conclusion to be one way or another? I have to think about that, you're saying that it might be open-ended forever.

Toliy:

Well, because, like it's, it'll just keep applying, right? If you're saying that, like, okay, that's almost a mindset there.

Eldar:

There's no judgment between good or bad.

Toliy:

Therefore there is no good or bad yeah because it's let's see, yeah, let's see is in that example there um people are trying in this village trying to figure out something it is happening, good or bad?

Toliy:

yeah, right. And the guy who they're asking is basically saying well, he used the word um, we'll see, we'll see. We're not sure yet. Yeah, we'll see, we'll see. Right, um, but the the proverb is basically showing that people sometimes something looks bad, but it's actually very good, or something is actually people are judging as very good, but it's actually bad, right it's almost showing us that, hey, it's all on the time base, there's a timeline.

Toliy:

I think it's all on the time base, right like there's a timeline well, yeah, well, also, I think it's also saying is that, like um, the people who are making the judgment, they're very close minded on the actual um thing that they're talking about to begin with?

Toliy:

the example of that is this if someone says like, hey, like, look you know, they're like, my son got a high paying job that he's super happy with and loves the people he works with and the company right, and the next day that person comes to you is like oh hey, like they're getting abused. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. They come and say like, hey, on the way to work he got mugged and killed.

Mike:

Oh my God, I would have just said he got fired. Yeah, damn totally.

Toliy:

No, no, no, what I'm saying is that, like those are two separate events, completely yeah Right, but when people make a judgment on it in these examples, they're making a judgment on that one thing, on that one thing.

Eldar:

Right.

Toliy:

Which is yeah, right, which is yeah, which is, and the master is encompassing everything, yeah, where the people are saying, hey, he got a horse, this is great right now, yes, yeah.

Eldar:

Or his leg, not good.

Toliy:

But they're also not saying that hey, he got a horse.

Toliy:

This could be good yeah, yeah, right, yeah, it's a judgment yeah, and again, it's in that moment you're talking about that one thing, but you're describing the whole situation that that. That that's why when someone's like, hey, he got a great job, right, they're talking about he got a great job, but they're not saying, like he got a job and it could be good, they're choosing to make a conclusion that it is good, right, not knowing. Hey, maybe this job is great, but it's in a bad neighborhood. Maybe he has a real shitty commute, right, maybe it requires him to be away from his family throughout the year, right, yeah, right, throughout the year, right, yeah, right, like, um.

Toliy:

So different people judge these different situations as being bad or good. Like I don't know, let's say, being a professional nba player, right, like you're off for, like I don't know, let's say, three to four months throughout the year, completely off, right, and you have an opportunity to make like a lot of money. Maybe that person has a opportunity to like, pursue, like, like a passion, right, but they can't see their family, for example or yeah, like in the example of like we watched the fight, like the tyson fury and the ulusik fight, right.

Toliy:

He says like look, I was in training camp for eight months and then the fight got delayed. He's like I missed the birth of my son, I missed my daughter's birthday and then I missed my other son's birthday as well and I missed New Year's Right. What needs to happen for these things to now be viewed good or bad for him? Making $50 million for the fight? But it depends on who views it. We'll judge it as like this is good or bad?

Eldar:

Who's perceiving?

Toliy:

that, yeah, same thing with like a, like a professional basketball player. Like again, you have 41.

Eldar:

Half your games are guaranteed to be on the road so then, why the zen master continues to keep that open mind?

Toliy:

well, because in the zen master's world there is no good or bad okay, I agree with that there only is, there only is yeah. But again it's tough to to live like should we strive towards that?

Mike:

is it only is because there's events, or are there events that are out of our control?

Eldar:

see, I think that zen master understood that, um to speak in such a manner of in finite, in finite, uh.

Eldar:

Conclusions is ignorant is ignorant. Yeah, it's incorrect. Yeah, and it only causes suffering. Yeah, and I think that zen master is wise enough to say hey, I'm not going there, I don't want that. Why? Because it feels bad. He realized, right, he realized that there's a connection between right feelings and why feelings come about in the first place. Right, the emotions and feelings and things like that that we go through, right, we internalize and actually feel them right, stress or whatever, pains and happiness or whatever, is because we make certain type of conclusions about certain things yeah, no, yeah, I agree.

Mike:

But my question that's why I asked is it we make conclusions about things we don't have control over? Like we make plans you know what tomorrow? Yeah, like that. He just said this guy loves his job, but he gets killed on his way to work right yeah, that shows that we actually don't have control over what's gonna happen tomorrow.

Mike:

Like that kid didn't plan to fall off the horse. Yeah, it's not like he fell intentionally to break his leg. Yeah, there's events that maybe we do have control. We just can't see those ripples Right, like you want to call it, karma, right or luck, or you know whatever. Destiny, destiny, right, yeah. There are certain things that are out of our control, yeah, but speaking as if they are is ignorant, and I think maybe he understood that. Yeah it causes suffering.

Eldar:

It causes suffering. Yeah Babe, what do you think?

Katherine:

Is the Zen Master onto something, Of course I agree with you too. I'm usually on his side of the of like the I don't want to call it argument, but like you know, so I mean I can see it. I can see it as. Like you know, so I mean I can see it. I can see it as it's happening with him.

Eldar:

I can see myself in it, but I can see also your point and your reasoning and you know I agree with it is it similar to the I know that I know nothing Socrates thing when he's I think that Socrates attempted to do the same thing and accomplish the same thing preventative measure, in order not to box himself in from ultimately learning, because learning is only what satisfies our soul, our mind, our body to the fullest. This is when we learn, we grow and we are actualizing, and I think we're experiencing God in the process of learning. You know what I mean. We're changing as we learn and I think Socrates understood that this is a virtuous thing, like yo, like this is important. You know what I mean.

Eldar:

And it feels hella good. So what do I do and how do I structure my speech, my actions in such a way where I continue this process of learning Because I want to fucking feel good? It feels fucking good. And I think he got to a point where he got addicted to it and I think that same zen master right understood that same point and he said look, I'm not making any conclusions here, let's see what happens. I'm not gonna go up or down, I'm gonna be neutral, just to see what happens.

Katherine:

and I think there's a lot of wisdom, but no, but it is very wise to not give opinion and to actually observe Versus. They say like opinion is like the stupidest form of expression. You know, it's just an opinion, it's not a fact. It doesn't mean it's true. So taking a step back and then not making a conclusion or opinion on it, and just actually observing, I think it sounds simple, but it is.

Eldar:

Profound.

Katherine:

It is wise yeah.

Eldar:

You know. Yeah, I think it is related, Mike, to answer your question. It is related very closely. So again, you know we live in this let's just say, practical, physical life with physical things.

Katherine:

You know what I mean Lots of wants. Lots of wants, desires right and a consumer's nation, I guess.

Eldar:

And to be able to navigate it in such a way where it actually serves you right. It takes a little bit of effort, I think, and if you choose not to have this effort, I think that you will fall into the pit of closed-mindedness and you will suffer.

Mike:

Yeah, absolutely.

Eldar:

What's going on over there?

Mike:

I don't know. Remember last week we had the same issue.

Eldar:

Oh, stop jerking.

Mike:

No, I haven't touched it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eldar:

So, mike, are we on to something here?

Mike:

Or is the Zen?

Eldar:

master on to something.

Mike:

I mean, I think, yeah, I think we agree with him what he's saying, but I also think I still think there's a lot of interesting stuff in that. Why are we chasing the excitement? Because we did have it.

Eldar:

That's a big one, that's a big topic, you know yeah, and I agree with you that I think, if to give a shortcut answer to people that are listening, is that I think excitement. There's a big topic, you know, yeah, and I agree with you that I think, if to give a shortcut answer to the people that are listening, is that I think excitement. There's a reason for why you, you need to get excited. Is you need to fill a certain type of void, right, or?

Mike:

we're not. We're not extracting that which we can from day-to-day life yeah so we need that like rush of excitement, a rush excitement to fill us up a little bit for the moment.

Eldar:

Distract ourselves potentially right, distract ourselves yeah, I know, I think that's interesting. Would you say that this is an exciting Edward coming in right now?

Mike:

I think the exciting Edward he does display exciting Edward qualities at times.

Eldar:

Yeah, that's why. Yeah, would you say, he's good at it, Is he a?

Mike:

master of excitement. He is a master of excitement. He is a master of excitement. Yeah, he might not agree. Why is he breathing so hard right now?

Eldar:

I think he just You're always under attack, or no? What Are you always under attack? I mean, I'm ready to go to war at all times.

Toliy:

But, do you feel like, internally, you're under attack? I mean, if I'm under attack, then I'm ready to either Defend yourself, yeah, no, but internally.

Eldar:

Do you feel like you're under attack when, right now, Right now, with this topic, yeah Well, I mean Of attaching yourself to the deck, I mean well the topic's about me.

Toliy:

Oh yeah, all right, fine, I'm in some way you know what I mean.

Eldar:

I think he did well. You know what I mean. I think he's being very reasonable.

Toliy:

Yeah, um, I would say he's not being optimistic or patient yet, but I think this kind of stuff will teach those type of lessons yeah, but that kind of stuff also like um, like um, that type of stuff takes time to like understand, and like the flipping of the switch yeah, when you're the one in it.

Toliy:

Yeah, most directly, not saying that like you guys are not right, oh yeah no I know, I know that you are, but there's still a different level to the person who's who's actually in it yeah, you mean the person that's shit in the bed no, no, the person who's like who doesn't like.

Eldar:

Who's actually in it? Yeah, well, the person that's in the bed with attachment. Sure, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we're, we gotta understand that. You gotta understand in this, right, totally. Look, you thought you had attachment. I have bigger attachment now than you for For bigger and better things, and now I'm waiting for you to spool up, to catch up to the same level of attachment, and I think when you meet and we meet, there's something to stand behind, there's a fucking level of connecting this and understanding that we actually are fighting for the same thing, and that is the roots versus the leaves.

Toliy:

Yeah, the issue is that I have a hard time with things like this, but why?

Eldar:

Because of attachment.

Toliy:

Well, no, first I have PTSD with things like this and I never, I guess I think I never. Well, I mean, I feel like it's better now, but I feel like I've improved with these things now Better.

Eldar:

But I burned myself in my life with this concept. Oh, you mean like where you become like self-sabotage, kind of like psych yourself out on things. No, oh.

Toliy:

No, I mean, I felt like. I mean like early on I was the dream like big guy in like a way. Yeah Right, but I didn't understand, like what I was doing or what I was saying. But I had particular aspirations for different things and then, when I wasn't able to like fulfill them or like accomplish them, um, like there was one point where I definitely like banned all that, like where I was like I'm like like I was almost done with doing all that. You know.

Eldar:

So now I'm trying to like Learn how to slowly extract the small pieces.

Toliy:

Learn how to still do that. But then like but do that only when I know I can do something right. Like maybe in your head when you're giving the thing, like you know that this thing that looks so crazy and big sounds like I don't know, like either unrealistic or maybe something like that. There's a part of you inside that has enough conviction that you know that like this is for sure possible, even though it sounds big, that it's definitely doable.

Mike:

For example, the conviction in in the. I'm not sure which case you're referring to, but as the conviction is that coming from ego, when you're making those claims, or when you used to make those claims, right, for example, like yo, whatever big plans that you made, was that coming from like, there is a place where you're like yo. I know I can achieve this right. I'm going to back myself. Or is it like? Yo fuck you. I'm going to prove everybody wrong. I'm going to be the next Warren Buff, for example.

Toliy:

Well, it could be that the vampire remember that. Yeah, it could be that, but I feel like in my case it was maybe a bit different, different. I didn't like um, consider a particular um variables and now like the idea of thinking big, for for me it's very difficult to um um, but is an ego not sorry? Sorry, yeah, it's an ego not considering the variables well, I'm not sure that you have all the angles covered.

Mike:

Then, to make this like Well, I'm not sure if it goes Like to think that you have all the angles covered then to make? The Well. No, like I'm not talking about your, I'm saying in general because I don't know the example.

Toliy:

Well, no, you could just not have, you could just be ignorant, but then you could be ignorant and make no statements.

Mike:

Yeah, and that's not ego.

Toliy:

No, but that's how it always is.

Mike:

You never have all the information, but you still make statements. Yeah, well, you definitely don't have all the information, but being better prepared, right.

Toliy:

Yeah, but you're talking about being prepared, then you're talking about having an education, because then you understand what kind of preparedness is actually the word required Prepared, right, like. Someone's level of prepared could be this, this and that. And then someone else who understands maybe what it takes more, actually could be like no, no, like, this guy's not prepared at all, like he's bare, he's naked, right, he's not prepared at all. And that person is still making the conclusion. The other person that he's prepared because he's only operating off of what he knows. It's different to, it's difficult for account for things like you know that you don't know, like, like, like our developer recently. He's like well, if you guys were planning on giving people like you know, like this or this, nice, like, like, why? Why didn't you consider to do that before?

Toliy:

yeah well, it's like, you know, like it's hard to plan.

Toliy:

Yeah, it's hard to plan for seven years later, seven years, ten years later, also with experiences built in there, like lessons built in there, a bunch of different things it's hard to to account for everything, yeah but you still need to make moves right, yeah, like yeah like even, for example, like you were just saying, like a week ago, like you guys built that uh, that uh, fire, fire area in your backyard, but then you have those things that take you know air in, right, um, or or you don't account for, like it being so close and breathing and and and bringing in the smoke or the air from the outside, yeah, into the house yeah, right if it's windy yeah, again to account for everything.

Toliy:

It's hard. It would be something that you have probably now had extensive experience in should we attempt to try to do our best well, yeah, we can definitely but the thing is you bring in people who know but that excitement

Mike:

because it prevents us from actually asking those important questions and slowing down. I agree with that you. I agree with that, because when you're excited, you just want to, as fast as possible, complete your vision, extract the least amount of happiness from it.

Toliy:

In the moment you don't see that. But that's what's actually happening. But I don't necessarily think it's from excitement. I think it's from attachment, which is excitement. We still are saying that we're going to live in a world of attachment.

Eldar:

Well, you do live in a world of attachment and wants right yeah.

Toliy:

Automatically. When you live in a world of wants, you are guaranteed to get things wrong.

Mike:

When you're always. Yeah, I guess, when you phrase your question like Like I want this.

Eldar:

If the want is priority, yes.

Mike:

Yeah If the want is priority and not to figure like I want a new deck, yeah Versus I want to figure out how to build a deck, no, the function of a deck.

Eldar:

Yeah, the function of a deck, right, the essence of a deck what's a deck should actually be serving? Right, because a deck is a deck. Okay, sure, it's the bullshit, sure, but then there's like a good deck and what does that mean, right? Well, yeah, oh, like, what's the design of? Like a kitchen, right, they explain to you, like you know, there's a triangle, right, babe, there's a triangle that you have the working triangle right, like there's a reason why people thought about that.

Eldar:

It's an easy way of functioning right. Fridge stove sink. Fridge stove sink, fridge stove sink.

Toliy:

It's a triangle right.

Eldar:

Same thing for a deck Deck has its own thing. To just build a deck is one thing, but build a functioning good deck is another, and I think that's what we're trying to strive for. Sure, we can build a deck, but can you build a functioning good deck? That's the question, and probably, ultimately, you can't, probably build a perfect deck, no, but I think with your mind and your ability, you can build a pretty close to very good deck where you're going to be like I'm very satisfied here and I think that's what we're aiming for. Yeah, that kind of stuff will always take more time, will always take more money and everything and effort.

Mike:

Yeah, that's inevitable, but I think the shorter route. You will never actually extract that what you have imagined you will when you build it.

Eldar:

I agree with you, you will never get that satisfaction and you will never grow. Yeah, with it. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, I wanted to change. I wanted to finally tell my front porch. Not for the reason that I wanted, uh, finally tile my front porch, not for the reason that I wanted a new tile on my front porch I give a fuck about the tile. I did it because I wanted to grade it away from my house, because every time it rains, the rain is going inside my house. That's why I wanted to do it the other way. Catherine maybe was attached more to the aesthetics part of it. I was made sure that I wanted to grade it the other way. Ecstatic part of it. I was made sure that I wanted to create it the other way. I finally got the satisfaction and I know that I'm not gonna have to blow the water or, you know, fucking sweep the water away from my house anymore.

Eldar:

Yeah, of course, you know, or have a slippery situation during the winter time, for example, because the water's fucking over there and it's freezing, you know. So that kind of stuff. Yeah, I didn't build a perfect porch. I build a more of a functioning porch based on the years of experience that I had with this project.

Eldar:

I just tried to improve it I just tried to improve it as best as I could, because that's what I understood about it. You know, I did not do this when I fucking built the garage. The garage level is incorrect. That's why there's a water that pulls up on the fuck on the side of the wall. You know what I mean. Now that I know what I know, I need a new fucking floor in my garage, for fuck's sakes and guess what I?

Eldar:

didn't think about that years ago. We went in and we I got excited we put epoxy on it like we.

Katherine:

Yeah, we already did the garage floor without I didn't tell the fucking people to do it in the proper way because, I was an idiot.

Eldar:

Now I live with it as an idiot as a reminder that you were an idiot at that time now that we're talking about a porch, I'm going to say yo, I want to make sure my porch is correct.

Mike:

Now, of course, because I'm thinking about certain stuff yeah, because you realize you're not actually solving the problem, like exactly yo fuck that shit if it looks the best, but every time you fucking slip, bust your ass internally.

Katherine:

I'm upset, bro, of course I'm upset inside, you feel like a loser.

Toliy:

There's water pulling up on my garage every time but that's what I was saying before is that to be able to account for these different things or think in these different ways.

Eldar:

It's very hard to go about it without learning some lessons or having some kinds of experiences that can teach you Well that's why I think it's important to be humble right, going back to being humble and to be able to ask questions from people who did it. I was advising this last episode to Lisa about love. Right, go interview the people that have been in the relationship for 50 years, those old people that are still holding hands in the mall outside. They're crusty and old, but they're holding hands and smiling. Go ask them, like, how did they do that shit? What are we doing? We're going to the fucking gurus telling you he's gonna fall in love and fucking in five days or less.

Eldar:

How do you find your soulmate? Yeah, fucking crazy. People don't even have they're, they're not even in love. Yeah, who are you talking to? You know what I mean. So, like, you have to be humble enough to be able to go to people who are old, crusty look, don't look the way you look. You know what I mean, like, but you have to see that there's wisdom behind that.

Eldar:

Go ask them, go ask somebody who did it, you know. But you have to have some humility. It seems like all the virtues point to the same thing. They all come back to like, like. If you want to learn, you want to grow, you want to be a better person, you want to be happy, ultimately you have to be virtuous, right, humble, patient. Yeah, you know. Seek learning, otherwise the gig's up, get fucked Every time get fucked. That's why you were having a bad attitude. It's inevitable.

Toliy:

It's inevitable to have a bad attitude If you're close-minded, if you've attached yourself to a point where you're already like that's it is that are you saying that this is um, this won't like it's possible for this process to not happen when you're in these things?

Eldar:

it's. I think it's possible for you to learn and grow enough to then prevent and do your best to minimize the consequences that come to follow. That's a. That's a good way?

Toliy:

well, yeah, but I feel like there's one to to me like a good way to well yeah, but I feel like there's one to me like idea here of like before you get into it to begin with, but if you're already in something I feel like you're, you're already lost.

Eldar:

You're going to experience this yeah, I agree, yeah, yeah, yeah that's the way that I was looking at this.

Toliy:

Is that like, okay, I was already in it, I had particular plans, right? But I didn't feel that that I was looking at this is that like, okay, I was already in it, I had particular plans? Yeah, right, I didn't feel that like I was making these plans up for not like other people being on the same page there, but like I feel like the like this was like my evaluation, I feel like, of the of of the things. What was upset when my mom was giving me these ideas, right Again, I told you that you ruled out already I ruled her out because I felt like, hey, I'm grateful just to get this to begin with.

Toliy:

And instead of giving me ideas, you're trying to like like, uh, renovate my house, which to me was at that time, to me was the wrong mindset, yeah, yeah, and, and it wasn't the wrong mindset because I was like mom, that's actually a really good idea, but it's going to take way too long. Like like, no, right, I was more trying to like my, like I, I, I mean I, I think at least that I, I, I was grateful for already getting this and I wanted ideas for this, and you're giving me ideas for something else no, but the thing is you know, remember.

Eldar:

I mean probably you won't remember because the way everything played out, or I didn't do a good job communicating right when I said the things that I said about hey, like we really got to think about the function of the thing. You know what I mean. Yeah, I remember that. I know I said it many times and I was trying to convey this thing right here and I don't think I did a good job, considering where I don't think you did, I don't think you did, but nonetheless I've given him props that he's able to pivot, he's able to be reasonable and say Eldar, I didn't see certain things, but I'm seeing them now and there are possibilities and I'm okay with getting behind them. You know what I mean. So I didn't convey that enough, but that's what I was going for, because I knew that these things possibly exist. There was not in my mind that we were about to do breaking of a wall of a house, but we're thinking about the deck outside, if you remember how I even posed the idea to you.

Toliy:

I was almost like yo, this is not my idea, like we don't need to do this, like I'm almost like afraid to even bring it up because to me it sounds like a greedy thing, it was the same thing with having the larger deck, for example, bringing it there.

Toliy:

I said that, like yo, this is a greedy idea. Or again, all these different things. Speakers like come on, all these things are like to me when thinking about them. There's lots of functionality from different things, but there's also like, again, there's finances involved. Yeah, there could be a level of greediness, like not being grateful, right, or like all that at play. So even when I was bringing up this idea to me, it almost feels like a greedy idea.

Eldar:

You know, that's also why when I was introducing Okay, so this is a very good question. Then too, yeah, there's another question that's coming to mind then. Then if the person is kind of maybe handcuffed right To, let's just say gratitude, right, he's already kind of thankful for that this is happening in the first place, right Then he or she is almost like hey, like I really can't bring up like extra stuff, because, like I can't, I'm getting a free horse here, like I can't ask for it to also have a gold, like a seat see a gold seat on it.

Katherine:

You know what I mean.

Eldar:

Like I'm already getting a free horse. You know what I'm saying. So like, yeah, that's a good question then. Then it's almost like what if that person internally knows that there could be something better or greater than the idea that was proposed in the first place, right, how does he make a case for it? In the humble way?

Katherine:

You got to pee.

Eldar:

Yeah, it's hard to do those kinds of things Like say, hey, like okay, cool, Like you know, buy you a pair of shoes, but then you're like, hey, listen, actually, like you know, there's bigger things that stay. I need a better jacket.

Toliy:

You know what I mean, though like something else like how do you come up?

Eldar:

you know well, it's, is it right, is it? Is it hard? To think about, because it's like a um I guess the the question would be like who's who needs to learn the lesson here?

Toliy:

maybe then well, well, no, it's like a uh, it's a hard thing because it's like a um should you ever take a counteracting scenario like humbly come to ask for, I guess, a lot.

Eldar:

I know it's, you know. It doesn't make sense.

Katherine:

Contradiction it requires a lot. No, no, no, okay how about this?

Eldar:

how about I phrase the question differently then? Okay, how do you come humbly, with humility, right to ask for the right thing, or argue for the right thing If you see the right thing, right, like, if you're like? Oh wait a second, I was proposed this idea.

Toliy:

But seeing what you're saying, you're saying that there is a right thing.

Eldar:

That's what I'm trying to. Yes, yeah.

Toliy:

Assuming that there is. Yeah, how could there be a right thing in those kinds of scenarios?

Mike:

yeah, that's another assumption and can you give the example of real life so we can maybe work it that?

Toliy:

way. Well, I mean the deck okay so give the. How would you? Uh elder saying like he's saying what he's in his head is the right thing For someone to come ask for a big thing, but, for example, he's deeming it the right thing I'm trying to say that it's not bigger.

Eldar:

You know what I'm saying? It's the right thing, and because it's the right thing, there has to be some kind of a path.

Eldar:

No, but it's because you're making a judgment call on it being the right thing, yes, so I don't know how you can, universally, I would say, then you have to come, come in, come in with a question. You have to right in the case of the deck and say hey, um, again it goes back to the function of the deck. You have to ask with the question of like, hey, like, I know we talk about the deck, but like can we talk about?

Toliy:

no, but you would need somebody that it. It would be a requirement, requirement, that the person you're talking to would have to have those kinds of values. I guess In those things.

Eldar:

No, I don't think so.

Toliy:

I think it's a requirement. I think no matter.

Eldar:

what if somebody understands the truth or is?

Toliy:

Well, that's what I'm saying You're talking about.

Eldar:

It's okay for them to lead with it, even though the other person might not be there yet, just like I was leading in this case, right, where it's like hey, I know you attach yourself to it, maybe for now. But then I was like, let's keep an open mind, maybe something else will come up. And something else did come up and I was like should attach ourselves to this?

Toliy:

no, you're coming out of from the reverse side. I'm talking about the side of like someone that's that wants something, for example big, and if, if, if you're going to, even if you go in with a question, you need the other person to have values on those things and still kind of like um, like uh but the question is like bless it, you know, I agree with that, but but can't you position yourself in such a way where you actually get exactly well?

Mike:

you have to ask the question and know what, which way to ask it. Like yes, like if he said yo, I put this here, and you're like oh, okay, so you want to put the grill here, so all the smoke goes into your house? Okay, sounds like a good idea, right? Obviously I'm trolling, but, like again, you ask the question in a way where you're pointing out the flaw of the other person's design.

Eldar:

Yeah.

Mike:

No, but that's not what we're talking about. That's not what you guys are talking about. No.

Eldar:

No, but like suggestions, whatever the suggestion might be, he's asking like hey, if the person who's like, who's wanting something but he's getting something, he can't be wanting something big.

Mike:

And come to you oh, so you're saying if Tolly would have came to you and said, yo, I want to do this, you come to him to help. It's almost like it's impossible.

Eldar:

I'm saying like, hey, we should find a way to do this.

Toliy:

The example was that? Because when my mom was giving this example to me, it's like like when she's telling it to me when it's when she's telling it to me, like well, to me it's like well, duh, this sounds good like 100, right? But like me, asking for this is like being like a jlop, you know, like a, uh, like a, like a stingy well, no, not stingy being being not grateful greedy, yeah, being greedy but why?

Mike:

why is it greedy?

Toliy:

what? Why is it greedy? Well, because she's like, she's um suggesting like, so, um, I obviously I told them about you know that we're gonna put um, take apart the uh, the uh deck and and and build a new one. Yeah, uh, which they were. I mean, they obviously got excited about it. Um, which they were. I mean, they obviously got excited about it and exciting news travels fast within your family and what exciting news travels fast within your family.

Eldar:

Yes or no?

Toliy:

yes, how fast lightning speed okay cool, so does bad news which one's faster? What? Which one's faster? They're both, because they're both a thrill. Okay. Bad news typically that's in everyone's family. Do they like roller coasters or no? Who doesn't? Okay?

Eldar:

fine Mental ones.

Toliy:

Yeah, who doesn't? Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, fine, you know. Yeah, sick people always do. People bond together on extremes. This is a fact. Okay, fine, good.

Eldar:

Otherwise, if you're not extreme, you can be lonely like the Zen master. If there's not bonding towards extremes, then you can just be nasty towards each other which is what the usual programming is.

Toliy:

So then she asked me a question. She said do you need help designing it? Oh, wow, and my mom always has different ideas on curtains or stuff like that. She always gives me her suggestions and sometimes they're good, but like, oftentimes they're not. Like I'm not asking for them. Or like, yeah, when she asked me this before, I told her like yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to, um, yeah, like, I do want your help, but first let me see what like was approved and what's not approved. Right, do want your help, but first let me see what like was approved and what's not approved. Right, because, like, again, you could be thinking, like if I was thinking that this is going, that this is in the sphere of a box, where it's like there are limits to like, uh, like particular things.

Eldar:

so I don't want to go. Is that your assumption?

Mike:

yeah, wait, who said the like approved? In what sense? What do you mean? Um, what do you like? Who's approving it? You're not approving the deck in in in what you said. You need to see what's approved. You said to your mom, didn't you just say yeah, yeah.

Toliy:

Well, I need to tell them about it oh, so all that has to approve it?

Mike:

well, yeah, he thought he thought. Okay, yeah, approve or get his advice, or is that, I think?

Eldar:

it's both, it's both.

Mike:

Yeah.

Eldar:

We're attached to it together. Okay, yeah.

Toliy:

So I'm like I don't want to go through that. That is what I don't like. I don't like going thinking about all these things, planning it and then being like hey, we want to make all four corners have like golden lions on them, right.

Eldar:

Yeah.

Toliy:

When it's like golden lions is not in the budget, for example, yeah, right. So it's like I don't want to go think about things first, plan them out and then think about that. That to me is like the first part, and then the next is like the second part. Like, like, yeah, right, like, uh, like someone says, hey, okay, you host a barbecue, right, I don't want to be thinking about someone transporting, uh, I don't know a lot, fresh lobster from maine for me, right, which, again, maybe if you're a certain level of rich, you can make that call and someone will go in the truck and bring it to you, right, like, but if that's not within the operations, like, you can't be planning that within your barbecue, yeah, you might have to just go to the local store.

Eldar:

It's unrealistic, yeah, and get frozen lobster or whatever is in there, for example.

Toliy:

Yeah, right. So yeah, I didn't want to go through all that until we thought about those things yeah, yeah, um, and then she just randomly told me this. She's like, hey, why don't you do this? And then I right away told like a joke back to her right, because again in my mind is like, yeah, it's a hard.

Toliy:

This is realistic, yeah I mean this is not realistic. Yeah, and we're talking about one thing that we talked about and now you're talking about interior construction. So I was like this is dead, yeah. Then I made a joke back to her. I said, yeah, and then it would be good to break, like my bedroom wall too, and then have a second floor of the deck, walk outside where I can sunbathe and drink coffee.

Toliy:

Because, like that I'm painting her an unrealistic picture back Right and then she almost be like oh yeah, you're right, I know, I know, like that's too much. She realized it like herself, yeah, and then it was like that, so then, um, so then I was like um, when you guys are over, I was like, okay, I'm gonna mention it, but preface it with like I know, this is unrealistic but it sounds which, which part of you is still wanting, wanting to share it.

Eldar:

Like which part is that like?

Toliy:

well, because you already ruled it out. Well, because it definitely sounded like a good idea oh, okay, you still want to pitch it?

Mike:

but. But he was hoping it's going to get approved. Were you? Were you optimistic? No see, where is it coming from?

Toliy:

then I was almost I was almost almost saying it to you to like kind of bash my mom.

Eldar:

I was like yeah, let's see where she's at. She's thinking about this kind of stuff. Yeah, because I'm like. So are you pleasantly surprised that I completely agreed with her?

Toliy:

I mean, yeah, I'm definitely, you were a little bit upset. No, I wasn't upset.

Eldar:

That's where that attitude came from.

Toliy:

No, I'm not upset.

Mike:

No, I apologize no.

Toliy:

Actually mom's a great idea. That's what I'm saying. No, I'm going to tell you about it.

Eldar:

Like if they're going to laugh at me or like whatever. Well, at least you were honest, you gave her the yeah.

Toliy:

And then I called her and I told her actually everyone agreed that it was a great idea. It's a great idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike:

I didn't say it was my idea. I gave the another idea while you were like no, no, she said, see, I told you, you know, oh, she did tell you yeah okay good yeah yeah, um, um, yeah.

Toliy:

In my head again the reason I made that joke back to her, because I'm like you're saying ridiculous shit here, so I'm gonna come come back with ridiculous shit, yeah, and then when I pose it I am almost saying like yo, like this person's ridiculous, but this is what they're saying, and how would you feeling then in the moment?

Eldar:

right, we obviously didn't know this background, right?

Toliy:

yeah, I thought you would say that, yeah, it's a really good idea. But like, um, like, uh, like I thought you'd be, like bro, like you gotta calm down here yeah, yeah, yeah, and maybe I, maybe I had that reaction.

Eldar:

I don't remember anymore. But then, as I started thinking about, like this is a no-brainer.

Mike:

Yeah, but I'm curious, like I guess interested. Why did you right away make the call? What information did you have to say that her idea was terrible?

Toliy:

Not that it was terrible On the semi-under understanding, like I just remember when. Eldar was doing his kitchen and like there was plenty of things that he told me and then I was amazed about the price. Do you remember this? When you were like yo, like look at this, this is this, and I'm like okay, and then you're like, yeah, like this feature costs like six thousand. I'm like what?

Toliy:

this is like a thousand bucks here, right, and it's something that's awesome, right like it thousand bucks here, right, yeah, and it's something that's awesome, right like it's really good right, um, right, like there's like in your kitchen there's a bunch of amazing things, but there's also a lot of them like people are gonna say like they're nice to have. Right like the water pours right away from the stove, yeah, like that's sick, but it's not like essential to you, like being like you know, but it's super powerful but it's super helpful right, and then just just like the way that things, things, things are built there's, there's very little like hot water this place.

Toliy:

Yeah, yeah, you have instant tea, right? Someone might, who wants that, might be like yo, bro, buy a teapot and like like why are you being greedy, for example, right, yeah, um, so in my, in my mind, yeah, like like giving this idea to eldar would be me being greedy. You know that that, that that was in it, because I'm already super.

Eldar:

Rule me out a little bit that. What did you rule me out? A little bit, well, no, I mean, I surprised you today, then what I surprised you well, yeah, yeah, but sure, but like, what's the extent of?

Toliy:

Was it good? Because it was a good functionality base? If I said something yeah, for example, one of the things I originally had on my list was adding a hot tub I removed that myself and even told them like, hey, yeah, this is what I originally had, but I took it out because I realized that it's too much and it's stupid. Yeah Right, yeah, I know it's going to cost a lot Because, again, my understanding is that hot subs are probably like five, six, seven, like thousand range, and then I know that you have to get like a, like a cement block or something under it. You have to do all that. Yeah, special electricity.

Eldar:

Yeah.

Toliy:

Yeah, so, yeah. So I was like this is going to be crazy at crazy cost and maybe, like speakers, is more manageable, or like a cooler, or like something like that, you know. So, yeah, like that was my mindset behind it is that, like, this is good, but it's ridiculous, you know. And then like, yeah, I thought your reaction would be like, yeah, well, your mom wants a lot of things. Or like, yeah, like that, that's a good, that's a bright idea, but it's gonna cost an extra 30 grand, you know, which is why I countered her with my idea too, like, yeah, why don't we do a two-floor deck?

Eldar:

yeah, but again, I introduced what I introduced right away. I introduced time into the equation, right, I said, okay, sure, maybe you can't do everything right away, but if you're okay with time, right, that becomes a battle of time. If you want everything this season, then you have to probably curb your enthusiasm, right. But if you put time on your side, like you even put in my gift over there, right, put time on your side, right. What happens? That we could get it all, but with time Plus.

Eldar:

But with time plus, we don't know how things would be right with me and katherine when we set out to, um, save money for the down payment for the house, right, every month, almost like a couple of months or whatever, we would sit down and like go over our budget on our money that we've saved up. You know she's working, I'm working, you know putting money away. She's like, oh, this is taking so long. And I'm like, hey, like you don't know, like you don't know where I'm going to be, you don't know where you're going to be. Maybe you can get a bonus, maybe you get a raise, maybe my business will take off a little bit, maybe it'll speed up a little bit. We don't know, let's just see, and I kept that type of an attitude throughout the process, and time has flew by, things were worked out for us and next, or we can't put a down payment for the house, you know what I mean. So we put time on our side, and I think this is an example of that. If you're willing to put time on your side, then you can get something really nice, but it requires patience. If not, okay, let's just dump the money, let's just get the deck out, you know, and that's it. Let's not break any walls, let's not create any extra things you know what I mean and just work with open space and a deck. You know what I mean. So I'm okay with that too. You know what I mean because you know me. I always I'm okay with learning lessons throughout a period of time, you know, for if there have to be permanent fixture in your mind, then that's what it's gonna have to be in order for you to understand and bring awareness. I'm okay with that too.

Eldar:

Yeah, so, yeah, I think that at the end of the day, the question, or where this conversation is leading to, is that how, how willing are we to find the answers within us by asking the right questions by taking our time. You know what I mean, because I think there are ways that we can even if we are in the position of gratitude at that moment or whatever, that we have to be grateful versus just asking for something more. I think that you can approach a situation where you can pose more of an enlightening thing versus a damper or like a greedy or stingy person. You know what I mean. What's just more? I think you can come across getting more, you know, but the right way, and I think we should strive to learn how to do that. That's why I think a lot of people have a problem asking for a raise at work, for example. You know what I mean. They feel a certain type of way about it. You know what I mean. So, yeah, I guess it's those types of questions.

Mike:

I guess the more you, I guess, know about that specific subject, the more questions you can ask around it. I guess know about that specific subject. The more questions you can ask around it Maybe not from that person, but maybe the raised example you find out. What's my job? How much is average people in this area getting paid for it? Am I good at this job? What's considered good at this job?

Eldar:

Am I standing behind my work and all this other stuff? Yeah, am I actually a good worker, you?

Mike:

start asking those questions in the general vicinity, then you can start figuring out, empowering yourself, empowering yourself, yeah, to find out like is this justified? Yeah, if it's not justified, then you, yeah, you don't ask. And if it is then you ask, and you ask it with, with empowerment, with confidence, yeah, because you already have information behind on your side. Yeah, true, yeah the truth. Yeah, Hopefully yeah.

Eldar:

So, yeah, it's interesting, it's not easy, it's definitely hard. You know what I mean. But anything good, I think, is a little bit hard. On the harder side, you know to figuring out how to position yourself properly, how to speak properly, how to ask questions properly. You know to get to the truth, to the bottom of things, to get something bigger and better, because I think that's what we're all after at the end of the day is to get everything that satisfies us, both internally, externally and whichever way you know, both aesthetically and when it comes to function. Yeah, okay, so we'll see. That's what the Zen master said. We'll see, yeah, but I don't know yet if this is good or this is bad, but we'll see. Right, and and and Toli's case, an example right now we're, we're all in agreeance that this, this breaking of the wall and making a door right through the kitchen to his deck is probably the best idea, and we're all behind it.

Mike:

But even then, let's see, we'll see what happens tomorrow maybe there's something else that comes up.

Eldar:

Obviously, you know what I mean and, yes, the pit can be endless, but we can narrow down kind of the best case scenario and go after that, get behind that and get excited about that. If everybody collectively gets excited about it, I think good things can happen. You know what I mean. So I'm down to back that kind of thing, toli. Final thoughts on this topic. We'll see.

Toliy:

Wow.

Eldar:

Final thoughts is we'll see.

Katherine:

Yeah, that sounds right, I like that.

Eldar:

You can't use it twice, Mike.

Mike:

In the other version of the story. See, we will shall. In another version of the story, the same story. It's told a little bit differently. I see it Instead of we'll see, he says maybe, so I'll use maybe.

Eldar:

Maybe, yeah, really.

Mike:

Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I think it was the way I remember it. It was like a neighbor came to his neighbor and he said oh, wow, you know your son got a horse. Congratulations so with. And he kept saying to him maybe Every time we come to him with like, oh, it's good news, good news, he says oh, maybe it's good news. Yeah, okay, maybe, so maybe.

Katherine:

Veremos.

Eldar:

What does this mean?

Katherine:

We'll see in Spanish.

Eldar:

Wow, you're cheating.

Katherine:

Smart.

Eldar:

Okay, fine, fine. I think this is huge. To live this type of lifestyle, to be able to exercise this thing is literally like liberation from a lot of suffering.

Toliy:

Yeah, but I also think that anyone who's making a claim about something being a particular way, they're narrow-minded on it, they're, um, like they're narrow-minded on it, or or they're only operating, and they're in that moment like a like capability, um, or understanding, but the person who's saying like we'll see, for example, right, they always have a much broader picture. Yeah, that's the only way they can make that kind of claim yeah, yeah, they actually see it fair enough.

Mike:

Yeah, they might be seeing things for what they are a little bit more yeah, yeah, they may know that, like, yeah, they, yeah, you have to be, you have to be seeing a much, but what you're saying, at least to me, it sounds like it's very paradoxical, because the guy who you said, who actually used that we'll see it sounds like he's like I don't know what's possible.

Mike:

I don't know anything really, but I know there's potential to be more yeah, you know, and I think that's very, again, interesting, paradoxical, uh, it is situation that happens and a lot of these yeah, these, uh, these things, yeah.

Toliy:

Well, I think in in that moment, the the like an individual displaying that they don't know is knowing, yeah, and that's the paradox yeah, yeah, that they actually do know that they don't know.

Eldar:

So would you say that a pure humility is a reflection of actually knowing pure humility is a reflection of knowing yeah, because that he's displaying almost humility right where it's like, hey, I'm not sure, like I don't want to take the arrogance route right like that, I know. Though this is it, you know he's saying like I'm not sure, well, pure humility, right, if that's a display of humility, it's also actually is a indication that the person actually might know.

Toliy:

It's like they say yeah. The second part of it is that they know. The way you were saying it first was like In reverse, yeah. In reverse, yeah. The act of knowing is the recognition that you don't know.

Eldar:

Yeah, it's a complete paradox.

Toliy:

Yeah. And the other way is the person who is saying that they do know, yeah, and they they actually don't know yeah, because someone who does, someone who knows, wouldn't say that they know yeah, why someone is, so someone who doesn't know what? Yes, someone that understands the importance of Leaving a little bit of room.

Eldar:

Room for error.

Toliy:

Yeah, and knows the complexities Again. Ultimately, part of it is experience-based, because, knowing the complexities of life, you grow to learn that there are a lot of Variables. There's a lot more to it than the person who knows, who thinks that they know, because the person who displays the act of knowing is not aware of these complexities.

Eldar:

So you're saying the roaring kitty put that meme for a reason we don't know. We'll see Whether or not a reason we don't know.

Toliy:

We'll see whether or not this is good or bad, we'll see well, I think he's trying to uh, metaphorically talk to the people that are on both sides, maybe, or or no, probably more to the people that are on the side, like yo, this is gonna blow up crazy. Or like you know, yeah, stuff like that, yeah, like almost in, like the way of like we'll see you know. Or or like um, yeah, like he, he, he's not guaranteeing you one way or like another, but he knows, but he knows yeah.

Eldar:

Interesting. Yeah, what a conundrum right.

Katherine:

Yeah.

Eldar:

Guys, guys, thank you so much. This was great you.