Dennis Rox
The 'Dennis Rox' podcast is a deep dive into the intricacies of personal development, self-growth, and the obstacles one may face on the way. Hosted by Eldar with regular guests Mike, Anatoliy, Phillip and Katherine, and Tommy the conversations explore themes such as anxiety, self-sabotage, the pursuit of happiness beyond materialism, and the complexities of love and relationships. Other topics include the impact of societal values on personal fulfillment, humility, and the often misconceived notions of success and wealth.
Through personal stories, philosophical debates, and thoughtful discussions, they explore various aspects of challenging one self and achieving personal growth. The conversation often shifts from individual experiences to broader societal critiques and is characterized by a focus on depth and seeking genuine understanding over superficial conclusions.
Dennis Rox
136. Addiction's role in our pain management
Have you ever wondered how deeply addiction can infiltrate daily life? Our latest conversation takes you inside Harris's personal battle with nicotine withdrawal, sparking a heated debate about the nature of addiction and the psychological triggers behind it. We unravel the intricate web of stress, pain, and substance use, revealing how addiction often becomes a mechanism for coping with life's relentless challenges. Through raw and candid exchanges, we dissect what constitutes genuine withdrawal and explore how addiction reshapes behavior.
But it’s not all about the struggle. We shift gears to discuss effective stress management techniques and the impact of vaping on productivity. From the stress of cold calling to the relief found in passionate work, we reflect on how attitude and support play crucial roles in navigating professional challenges. Hear firsthand accounts of how initial career stress transforms over time and discover strategies to maintain mental clarity amidst daily inconsistencies.
Lastly, we delve into the nuanced nature of addiction itself. Whether it's substance abuse, gambling, or even seemingly harmless activities like reading, addiction can take many forms. We discuss the thin line between enjoyment and dependence, stressing the importance of understanding personal triggers. By sharing a variety of personal experiences, we highlight the significance of patience, humility, and self-awareness in turning life's obstacles into opportunities for personal growth. Join us for a thought-provoking exploration that might just change how you view addiction and stress forever.
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On this week's episode. What you're saying is that there's some kind of correlation between pain, suffering, stress and addiction, substance, substance abuse or abuse, right? So what is addiction? They?
Speaker 2:either don't have control over it or they're not aware that like this is what's happening, or they have some kind of like fake reality where they think that like things are going to turn and they still continue to do it Like, for example, gambling. Things are going to turn and they still continue to do it Like, for example, gambling. If you start to ask questions, not only can you stop the pain, but you can put yourself in a position where you don't have it ever again. Not only that, but you open up so many other things in your life.
Speaker 1:All right, guys, you calm down.
Speaker 3:Oh, fuck you.
Speaker 1:Harris, today's topic. You chose the topic today Addiction, addiction. All right, so open it up for us. What do you want to talk about and why?
Speaker 3:So I just want to talk about the broad topic of addiction, because it can be multiple things. Like me right now, for the past I'd say going on a week or not a week. Going on a week I've been withdrawing from nicotine. Man, you need to shut the fuck up. Man, you missed the perfect over here. You, son of a bitch, Fake news man Withdrawing my ass. Man, Kiss my ass. It's been really hard for me. I feel like what a crackhead would be feeling like Bullshit and it's been really hard for me. I feel like what a crackhead would be feeling like bullshit.
Speaker 2:Are you done? Motherfucker? That's a good one, are you?
Speaker 3:done, motherfucker, tell me about would you like to keep going totally, or are you done?
Speaker 2:yeah are you done? I'm done, but I'm not finished. Are you done? I'm done, but I'm not finished. Are you done? I'm done, but I'm not finished.
Speaker 1:We'll give him a moment to speak. We'll give him a moment. Let him go Right now. Yeah, why are you rebuttaling Harris so harshly?
Speaker 2:Because he's saying he's been going through withdrawals and stuff like that. To me it sounds like, like a crackhead.
Speaker 1:He was a crackhead before. Yeah, like a crackhead.
Speaker 2:Come on To me. What I've observed is that he just has a hard time doing things he doesn't like to do oh fuck you. And he has no problem doing things that he likes to do or that are easy oh my God, that's what it is. Things that cause him stress and stuff like that he can't do and he stays away from, because he's always used the vape as like a uh, a way to relieve stress, and anything that is difficult he stays, stays away from it, and he chose to do all easy things with, which is fine.
Speaker 2:The whole, the whole week, he had fun plenty of times. He had talked, talked about me and to me and mike, about formula one and football and, uh, nascar. He was you know. Do you know why? The the UFC thing? He was hungry. He was having plenty of fun. Throughout the day. He was reading quotes, he was talking about the book being good. He went out with John having his burgers and coffee doing weird shit together. He was having plenty of fun. This is not what I picture someone on the floor shaking from withdrawals and suffering for a week.
Speaker 3:I'd like to point something out here. What he's stating right, what he's stating is that stuff is taking your mind off of it.
Speaker 2:The point is that anything that requires your mind that is, let's say, difficult to do. He couldn't do like working yeah, that's correct so he has a very good selective hearing yeah, I think this vape experience has shown me exactly what he enjoys doing and what he doesn't enjoy doing. What do you?
Speaker 3:mean, that's exactly what I mean. It's not about enjoying okay, like when I, when I was making the cold calls yeah, that's something that you don't like and causes stress.
Speaker 2:It's not about like or not like right, but you might, you wouldn't prefer to do that. Out of all the different things you can do, I wouldn't say I wouldn't prefer to do come on. Let's be honest okay.
Speaker 3:So when I was doing the cold calls yeah, it was a trigger okay, I would say 100 it was a trigger I wanted to suck the out of that babe. What?
Speaker 1:no, no, no, no, no, no homo. Where's that?
Speaker 3:absolutely the the denials yeah, it was a trigger you.
Speaker 2:Where's that?
Speaker 3:Absolutely the denials. Yeah, it was a trigger. Fuck you, are you done? Yeah, it was a trigger. Absolutely, my nerves started going. Why was it a trigger? I don't know. The projections, people not picking up, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, anything that involves using the brain. The fuck is that supposed to mean? Well, no, I think that.
Speaker 3:It's a progress. Listen, I when I, when I, when I was going through this, the whole thing that I did, right when I started feeling that you know, hit a couple tokes of the vape and got back on it, man hit it again and I was getting great results with the vape, but hey, hey man, what do you mean?
Speaker 2:you were getting great results with the vape. But hey, hey, man, what do you mean?
Speaker 3:you were getting great results with the vape, I was booking meetings man.
Speaker 1:I was showing improvement With the vape.
Speaker 3:With the vape man.
Speaker 1:So you've decided that there's a connection there between you smoking the vape and booking meetings. Well, it was probably a stress reliever, okay, but is there a connection? Stress reliever is one thing, okay, is there a connection? Stress reliever is one thing. If your vape relieves, stress is one thing, but if the vape makes you book meetings, that's another thing.
Speaker 3:I think it helped because it relieved the stress, but what I was saying right now totally was not listening, right?
Speaker 2:When I got. The process of him making the calls leads him to having stress because it's rejection. It's making calls, it's doing work, thinking about what to say, being afraid to mess up like, like and then vape release.
Speaker 1:Uh helps relieve some of that.
Speaker 3:It's like a chemical that's going into your body and saying, relax, man, it's all good. So what I said, like today, I had to find something else. Right, I'm this book, but I don't think this book. You know, I had to find my own. They called it. What was it? People were talking about how their energy and their progress went down. Right, and this guy was helping with it. Right, what the fuck did he call it? He called it a refresher. I think he said it was a refresher. Right, refresh your mind. He recommends people take multiple fucking breaks. Walk out there. Some people walk the stairs, smoke a vape. I had to find something else. That's the whole point of getting off this. You're not listening. I'm listening, I'm sorry. Right, some people walk the stairs.
Speaker 3:Uh, some people walked up to everyone asking hey, how's your day going, what are you doing? I don't fucking know how that helped them, but but basically you have to find a way to do refresher. He goes. You know what makes, what makes people burn out, have problems, is they push, they push, they push past the feelings, they push past the moment and he goes. That's what burns people out. He goes. They just keep pushing when their body, their mind, is saying hey, just hold on a minute, take a break, get up, walk around, refresh your mind. That's what this point is, do you?
Speaker 1:have this option for you, here, in your work environment, to refresh your mind and to do something like this.
Speaker 3:I think I had to find my own way. What refreshes my mind. But do you have this option or this ability to do it?
Speaker 1:Most likely, yeah, Most likely yeah, okay, we weren't against you going out heading to vape, so we wouldn't be against.
Speaker 3:if you need to take your shirt off, that's what I've been trying to say today Walk around. No one's taking shirts off.
Speaker 1:No, I know, I'm just saying, if this was one of your things where you want to sit down and five minutes. You know, damn well, I can't do that shit, but you know what I'm saying. We would be open to something weird.
Speaker 3:So why did you have to be weird man If it?
Speaker 1:is weird, we would be open to it.
Speaker 3:I know you're open to a lot of weird shit. Alright, cool.
Speaker 1:What do you have in your pocket now? Is it one of those things where you can just rub that?
Speaker 3:rub the. What do you have in your pocket? I got to find it, man. I don't know where the fuck this thing is. I think I might have Show the camera. The knot's coming out, fuck you. All right, the camera's pointing over there for some reason. Oh, good point, it's looking at the beer. So this is what I need. Your guys' help figuring out, man. Okay, any ideas? What can be a relief, a reset, figuring out man. Okay, any ideas? What can be a a relief, a reset?
Speaker 1:is that the answer to your addiction? Are we talking about addiction still, or are we still talking about a break or a refresher?
Speaker 3:we're answering totally this fucking thing here, right? Because?
Speaker 2:the.
Speaker 3:Thing gets foggy. I need to find a way to refresh I don't know my mind without nicked him. How do you refresh your mind, say Well what's your process, man, to refresh my mind. When you get stressed what is?
Speaker 2:your go-to. What do you do? Well, like how long are you talking about?
Speaker 3:Because you would hit the vape way more than like right, like like how I I well, let's just put it this way at the end of the day I filled my vape towards the end of vaping four times a day and we said one fill up is a pack of cigarettes. Right? So I was smoking four packs a Towards the end. Yeah, it was. Do you have a problem, man?
Speaker 1:No, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean, are you talking about like you're hitting the vape every minute or two, Like because I don't need a refresher every one minute?
Speaker 3:No man. But you know, when you have the vape there, you just kind of continue.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, exactly, have it right there. You just kind of continue well, well, well, yeah, exactly. Well, then you're talking about two different things. You have like a sustained flow.
Speaker 3:I'm not I'm not talking about when I when I do it right, but I'm talking about now that I'm not doing it. I'm feeling this shit.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying well, I I think at one it depends on what you're at first off. I think it depends on what you're doing, what your attitude is towards what you're doing. I think that's a big thing, yeah.
Speaker 1:Before I forget yes, that's a very good point that he's saying the attitude part right the fact that maybe you didn't do certain things that you were supposed to do this week, you did sit down and read a book and while you were reading the book, I have observed a very good behavior, let's just say, and I think that you were feeling pretty good about yourself too, because you were immersed in that which you were reading.
Speaker 1:you were enjoying it and definitely calmer yeah, definitely calmer, and you, you were even sharing the stuff because it was good. Yeah, so that was an example of you having the ability to sit for a long period of time and do something without needing to be stressed out, or going to do a vape or anything like that because you're clearly focused, but when it comes to the cold calling, it's totally different.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, okay, that's a different story, right? And I think that the whole goal of this whole conversation and everything else that we're going towards is the fact that maybe one day, cold calling or the tasks that you have to do, right, they become more like your passion.
Speaker 3:So I have a question for you. Right, this is for totally okay. Okay, were you stressed out when you first started this the first months, um, or did it just come naturally to you? Was I stressed out? Yes baby did totally ever get stressed out?
Speaker 2:no, I definitely did get stressed. I'm just trying to think for what? Like um see, I, I didn't do what you were doing. I didn't do like, like, like I had meetings and stuff like that and people that I would speak to and I would definitely get stressed out for them, but it was like, you know, that one call or those two calls, like I wasn't volume cold calling, like I never did that, purely so you what you weren't doing, like two, three hundred, no, one hundred, no hundred calls a day no, no, I still.
Speaker 2:Now I I do inbound right. So, like there's days where I have high volume like tasks, where I'm doing like a bunch of them. There's days where I'm not doing as much but I'm doing maybe more important ones that are, like you know, bigger opportunities and, um more, like you know, focus on them. Yeah, but, um, as far as like like uh, yeah, when I first started, it was definitely so, it, it it stuff that I used to get stressed out then, um, I don't get stressed out at all now, like, I don't know it definitely, um, it definitely took some time, but I also didn't have like, like, like elder taught me you know some of like the basic things and he taught me some things, but I didn't have like an ongoing effort or like an ongoing help.
Speaker 2:Um, like in in in that same way, right when, when it comes to doing that, like he he would support me and help me. When I asked him, you know for sure, um, and then he and and he did to teach me a bunch of stuff early on. But, um, like, I enjoyed doing what I was doing, like not not, not not everything that I was doing, you know, but like I was definitely curious about it and I definitely wanted to like, uh, like, learn about it. So, um, like what's stressed me, then it could be for, like, a call or for a meeting or something like that, like he was explaining he wasn't doing the amount of calls I'm.
Speaker 3:I'm doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I was just doing something different, right, but what stressed me before is maybe meeting with like multiple people or one really like important person, right.
Speaker 1:The stress is stress.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that would definitely stress me.
Speaker 3:What I had to figure out right is I know for a fact I was relying on the vape for most of everything. Right, I got a little upset. Someone pissed me off a little bit, right, I hit the fucking bait. I get stressed out from cold calling. Hit the fucking bait. You know, whenever something went wrong or didn't go right, it didn't go my way, what was my? It was my, it was my substance. You know something wasn't right. You know heroin addicts if they're not feeling good, you know I'm gonna go buy a bag, I'm gonna fucking shoot up. Right, if something doesn't go right. I relied on this thing, for I relied on nicotine for over 10 years so okay.
Speaker 1:So now let's bring this back to addiction. Right, and I think that we can, I think, tie this together with addiction. Right what? You're saying that there's some kind of correlation between pain, suffering, stress and Addiction, substance, substance use or abuse, right, so what is?
Speaker 3:addiction, right. So Mike had a really good point. Okay, Mike, I mean we're talking, he goes uh, it could be in the head, right, what addiction it could be in the head.
Speaker 1:Well, first, let's, let's, one thing at a time. What is addiction to you?
Speaker 3:uh, addiction it to me is let's try to define it here first. Yeah, so addiction is something that I'd say is very, very hard to stop Once you start something.
Speaker 2:Okay, you're not saying what addiction. Yeah, yeah, I can tell you what it is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, stop it, man, Stop it please.
Speaker 4:Let the president speak.
Speaker 2:Yeah, name two UFC fighters.
Speaker 3:Can we stop this shit now? I tap, I tap.
Speaker 1:You put them in a submission.
Speaker 4:Fine, I tap. Yeah, you put them in a submission I tap, that's it.
Speaker 3:You want me to do that. You want me to do this. What do you want? Give them a fuck you. Fuck you motherfucker. Oh, you know what? Fuck you guy, that was gay as hell. Screw you Addiction Back to addiction. What is it?
Speaker 2:Addiction is something you start, that you are not sure what other word is in the word addiction.
Speaker 3:Dick.
Speaker 1:Are you serious?
Speaker 2:What the hell, dick, I was a dick.
Speaker 3:Like right now going through this. I think the whole point is right. It has the word dick in it because when you withdraw from this shit, you're an absolute dick bro.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, I went off on totally, several fucking times.
Speaker 3:Are you apologizing?
Speaker 1:right now. Yeah, I'm sorry dude, oh fuck you man, fuck you too.
Speaker 3:But um, yeah, uh, addiction, in my eyes right, is something that you start and a lot of times people don't feel they're strong enough to stop until someone gives them the but. But what is an addiction? The kick in the ass. I just said it, bro.
Speaker 4:But there's a person. You said something that somebody starts like. Are they saying like you?
Speaker 3:know what I want to be addicted now no, so for me right my whole nicotine process started when I was in high school. My friends started doing it, I started doing it freshman year and uh started with cigarettes. I actually started on some probably the worst cigarettes out there the cowboy killers, the marlboro reds, hell, yeah, uh, fuck you dude uh, texas longhorns baby, those were nasty mike.
Speaker 1:I remember the marlboro reds.
Speaker 3:Those were cowboy killers, those were reds we were doing marlboro menthols yeah.
Speaker 4:Those were tasty, reds were strong Lights, menthol lights.
Speaker 3:Yeah, then I actually moved up to one. I started smoking Camel Camels. But yeah, I started in high school. Was hiding from my mom for a while, didn't think she could fucking tell John, fucking caught on John.
Speaker 1:Schuster.
Speaker 3:My brother. He caught on.
Speaker 1:John.
Speaker 3:Schuster, my brother. He caught on, told my mom. Turns out my mom didn't stop me. She didn't like the fact that I was going into Patterson to buy my cigarettes, so she just started buying them For you. Yeah, very nice. But yeah, can you edit that out, because I don't need that we're still not answering.
Speaker 2:What is it? No, yeah, we're not, we're waiting.
Speaker 3:Addiction is something I know I don't have the will right. It's something you start uh either because uh, your friends did you know, but what does it mean to have an addiction? An addiction. It's something you don't, you can't physically stop, you can't control. Okay, that's part of it you can't control.
Speaker 2:Uh, it's not, that it's not possible to stop.
Speaker 3:Okay, you feel like it's not possible, yeah, so you end up getting so. So I'm gonna say addicted, so addicted that you're doing it for so long that you just start to accept, like, okay, I addicted that you're doing it for so long that you just start to accept like, okay, I'm probably going to be doing this for fucking ever which you said to yourself as well, because I went through several times where I couldn't afford cigarettes and I was fucking fiending and it's not a fun thing. So you just keep going, because, to the point where you don't have that thing, you can't fucking operate. So it's like, okay, I'm going to go fucking find some cigarettes. Yo can I bum a smoke, yo can I do that. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:But you see, the thing is you link the addiction with some kind of stressor, some kind of pain.
Speaker 3:So yeah, so once you get started right, something happens. Someone pisses you off. The first thing is you have that as someone pisses you off. The first thing is you have that as an outlet, that outlet right. All it takes is, you know someone, one person say, hey, man, you want to smoke, you want to try this. You're like, oh fuck, why not, what's it going to do? And the next thing you know you're fucking addicted bro.
Speaker 4:And then something stresses you out, you can smoke a cigarette you can smoke a mate, you know. Is the addiction? Is that behavior like? Is it in response to something else, like it doesn't just develop? You just say you know what I want to become addicted to cigarettes.
Speaker 3:No, it's not like you become addicted to cigarettes. Like I said, you don't make the choice. That was my freshman year, right.
Speaker 4:Why did you start?
Speaker 3:smoking. I was hanging around with my friends.
Speaker 4:My I was hanging around with my friends. My friends started smoking. They were like, hey, you wanna smoke, so you started smoking. Because, yeah, I was like what the fuck can it hurt? No, he started smoking because he wanted to fit in.
Speaker 1:Of course, cause everybody was doing it and he felt like a loser and he needed to do it as well, even though he wasn't a smoker. So, in response to you being a loser?
Speaker 2:No, that's not what addiction is Huh, like you can.
Speaker 3:I just said what a fucking addiction was, Because you're a vegan.
Speaker 1:you almost started it.
Speaker 2:It doesn't mean that that's the reason for your addiction.
Speaker 3:No, you just fucking keep doing it it becomes.
Speaker 1:It can.
Speaker 2:Not becomes I think it can. I view addiction as something like a task or activity, something that you do over and over again that negatively affects you, or like there's like a perceived negative connotation with it, whether it's like health or like I don't know other things money like like a, like a, like a bunch of things, right, um. So yeah, something that you do over and over again that has a negative connotation to it or that negatively affects you, and you could be aware or you could also be unaware that it's happening and you don't have the ability, or you don't have the perceived ability, to stop it.
Speaker 1:And it has to be a prolonged period of time.
Speaker 2:It has to be a prolonged period of time, because then you could say that you enjoy something. You do it over and over again. Is that an addiction or is that a choice, that you're having fun and you're like enjoying yourself but like um, being like, for example, a loser and having a cigarette? Like that to me has nothing to do with like um, like addiction. I think that, like the addiction is something that could happen from having a cigarette like one time. It's something that could happen. But um, like there are addictive I want chemicals in in what he's smoking that physically make you addicted to something or physically make you want to do something. Same thing with, like you know, various like drugs or um gambling habits for example, or like stuff.
Speaker 4:But addiction is a response to something else, or no? You don't just develop addiction off of nothing.
Speaker 2:So trying it could be. Whatever task you're talking about, for example gambling, you could try it from just going and enjoying yourself and having fun, or same thing with, for example, smoking or drinking.
Speaker 4:So what's the differentiation factor versus a person who goes to a casino and gambles?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and a person who goes to a casino and gambles is an addict, so the person that doesn't have control over it, and there's a negative connotation with how it affects their life.
Speaker 2:So they either don't have control over it or they're not aware that like this is what's happening, don't have control over it, or they're not aware that like this is what's happening. Um, or they have some kind of like fake reality where they think that like things are going to turn, or and they still continue to do it, like, for example, in gambling okay, we're just one win away, you know, from like getting everything back or like so you don't think an addiction is like a coping mechanism in response to something else?
Speaker 2:addiction itself, it itself, it becomes it. Yeah, it could become it, but addiction itself, no, like just an addiction is just the repetitive action of doing something over and over again that negatively affects you.
Speaker 4:Well, yeah, I get that, but I'm saying, like, how does it develop? That's what I'm trying to go through.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, but it doesn't have to develop from like a coping mechanism or something Like for example, you like you could go gambling with your friends in the casino because you're on vacation, right, you've never gambled before, for example and you just go and you throw a little bit of money on some dice, right, um, but, um, yes, those doesn't have to have have to be that way, but you know, maybe that happens and then, like, some stuff go bad in your life and you remember that you had fun that time in the casino, I don't know, and you went to the casino and then it starts to like there has to be a continuous event happening for it to do that. And then I I do think that it could be like a response to maybe something that that um else is going on in your life, but it doesn't have come have to be.
Speaker 4:So how, how? So you're saying there's a way to develop addiction without it being like a coping mechanism, response or something else? Yeah, can you give an example?
Speaker 4:yeah, like um how can you like yeah, my question is right, it's tied to buddhism how can you overdo something, even if it's like even running right, oh, running is good for you, it's healthy, you're exercising, you're losing weight and you have an addiction to running? Regardless, overdoing something, like in the buddhist understanding right, is not a good thing, even if it's that thing might be considered good running, exercising but I don't think has to be categorized as an addiction.
Speaker 3:So I want to ask totally a question Right here.
Speaker 1:But then you? No, I have to ask then. But that's one of the criterias that you mentioned.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Do you think?
Speaker 1:Overdoing.
Speaker 3:Everyone that I talked to that started say on nicotine okay, it was the same thing, bro. They were in high school, they got it from a friend, they decided to keep doing it. Then eventually it built up to that they needed it. Okay, it's the same thing. Let me ask you a question, totally because we're going to deep dive into you, bro.
Speaker 4:We're going to deep dive into you. You said you were going to deep dive into totally this spot.
Speaker 3:No, ditty. Have you ever suffered from an addiction?
Speaker 2:Don't say cigarettes. Don't say cigarettes, because you admitted you were a weekend cigarette.
Speaker 3:You were a weekend smoker, lucky you yeah.
Speaker 4:I'm addicted to getting cash first right now. What do you mean? You never heard the expression get cash first.
Speaker 2:No, oh what are you addicted to? I'm addicted to food.
Speaker 3:No, you're not bro.
Speaker 1:See, but what you? Asked him a question.
Speaker 2:How is he addicted?
Speaker 1:He gave you an answer and then you say no. How?
Speaker 3:is he addicted to food? Because if you're addicted to food, you couldn't stop eating. Dude, what you can't stop eating, bro.
Speaker 1:What do you mean you?
Speaker 3:can't stop eating. That's how those people get to like 500 pounds bro, Wait you smoke and vape while you're sleeping. Actually, yeah, I wake up in the middle of the night. I would hit it, oh my god.
Speaker 4:Levels to addiction.
Speaker 3:Sure I would go back to bed.
Speaker 1:This is not an addiction, you're saying he's not addicted.
Speaker 2:How much food do you eat a day? It's not about how much food. Why does it have to be a certain amount?
Speaker 3:because if you're eating normal meals, I don't see how that's addiction. What are you talking about?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think. I think you have to understand, harris, that each individual has a very specific relationship with that specific thing that they might consider addiction.
Speaker 3:So the food's, his girlfriend Got it.
Speaker 1:It could be For him, it could be his thing. For you, it could be nicotine.
Speaker 3:You know, alright, you understand. So yeah, you got any addictions over there, since we're all sharing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, probably like alcohol. You're addicted to alcohol. Well, based on what we're trying to define and how we're defining it right, like I drink it consistently enough and I get sick from it you know what I mean. It does negatively affect me after the fact.
Speaker 3:After the fact yeah well, that happens to everyone, right?
Speaker 1:Well, sure, sure, but that's, I think, based on the definition of it right, at least to me, like I wouldn. Based on the definition of it right, at least to me, like I wouldn't want the hangovers and stuff like that. So to a degree I am addicted. Sure, some people might say like they go into this crazy ass stupor and drink, for you know, in a row, like a lot, and they just that's their level of what they can handle, or whatever. To me it sounds like I do negatively.
Speaker 3:It does negatively affect me, so there's levels to it.
Speaker 1:I think there's levels to it and, I think, to each individual.
Speaker 3:So you're saying my addiction was at a top tier level?
Speaker 1:Well, no, I think that if you hear my addiction, if you hear Toli's addiction, if you hear Mike's addiction, you might or might not be able to apply those addictions to yourself, absolutely not. You see, you might hear when Tony says, hey, I'm addicted to food, right, and he's going to explain to you what that means, how much food he intakes, when he intakes, or how it affects you, like, wait, bro, that's normal. But that's to you, that's a very subjective right to you. Experience of how you experience food versus how Tony experiences food.
Speaker 1:To me, how I experience alcohol, right To to individual who consumes a lot more alcohol. Think of, like you're not addicted at all, bro, you drink once a week or whatever, and like you get some hangovers, whatever, bro, you know what I mean, you understand? Yeah so, but to me it's still based on how he defined addiction. It definitely affects me in a negative way. I mean it affects me in a positive way, way I relax, I enjoy myself, I chill, but maybe the long-term effects are fucked up and maybe the short-term hangovers are fucked up too. I definitely will. I would drink a lot more, I would drink every day if I didn't get fucking hangovers the next day.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean I would smoke weed a lot more if I didn't get paranoid from weed you know shit like that.
Speaker 3:See, I guess my eyes of addiction is something that you have to do or you feel like you can't operate.
Speaker 1:Okay, see, but then again that becomes also very hairy because totally almost proved out right through this week by throwing certain different things at you through sports, right through books, through hanging out, that as long as we get your mind distracted, you're going to be perfectly fine, right no, it's not even mind distracted, as, like I would say in most cases, if you're in, if you're doing things that you associate as things that you enjoy, yeah, you're perfectly fine, exactly so so what that is is right.
Speaker 1:It's almost says that as enjoy, you're perfectly fine, exactly. So what that is is it almost says that as long as you're not experiencing the same pain that used to make triggers into doing your addictions, then you're going to be perfectly fine. So it sounds like almost addiction has to be tied to pain and stress. So how do you stop the stress? Oh well, that's a different question. Tied to pain and stress Without it.
Speaker 3:So how do you stop the stress? Oh well, that's a different question.
Speaker 1:I think the management of stress will help you with your addictions.
Speaker 2:I feel like what I was trying to say before, mike, is that there are certain things that different people enjoy, for example, and if they have particular stressors in their life or pain in their life, they could use those tools of relieving that kind of stress and having pleasure right, whether it's gambling, drinking, smoking, vaping, whatever it is right To help them right. And then if they continuously have that kind of pain and they don't understand how to deal with it or like what to do about it, they could start to be put on a path where they recurrently do something over and over again that helps relieve that relief. That then could turn into an addiction.
Speaker 1:So no, no, but see, you have to explain to me then what it is. What's the trigger point of making it an addiction thing?
Speaker 2:well so, but but it's also a tricky thing because it's different for all different people. Like people could be stressed and you could be like, um, okay, like let's, you know, let's smoke a joint or something like that, and that might not work for one person or work for another person. Or you could go gambling and some people are like, yeah, I hate gambling, I don't want to do that like at all. Right, like you have to, it has to be enjoyable to some extent for you. But there are some things that I think have physically, physically have like, uh, extremely highly addictive properties, like like nicotine or, like they say, like heroin, right, or like crack or these other drugs where they have like legitimate, like chemicals that are highly addicting, right, it's not like someone's like, oh, they're having so much stress, they're just eating broccoli all day you know, like they're just addicted to broccoli, or meditating.
Speaker 2:You know, like you usually don't hear about that, because broccoli is not going to have the same type of properties that nicotine has, for, for example. Right, but um, like he could be stressed out and he could right now crave nicotine, I could be stressed out. The last thing I'll ever want right now is nicotine.
Speaker 1:For example, his thing might be food.
Speaker 2:I might want to go fucking hit a.
Speaker 3:Sicilian pie. Are you saying there's no productive way right now to relieve the stress? Who told you this? Is that what you're saying right now? Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2:right now.
Speaker 3:Am I misunderstanding everything, completely Saying what? There's no what?
Speaker 4:There's no productive way to relieve stress how did you extract that?
Speaker 3:Come on man. Is that what you're saying? Come on man. I'm saying come on man, come on man, come on man. Are you serious? I'm serious, man. What is wrong with you? What is wrong with you? What is wrong with you? How do you come up with a way, right, okay, there you go. I've thought about putting one of those small fucking puncher bags in the office. What, what the hell is that? Bro? Here we go with Nate again. Press that fucking button, bro. Press that button right here, because I'm going to fucking go right here, bro. You know what? Fuck you guys? This fucking shit. Everything's Nate this, nate that, nate that. If Nate's listening to this, fuck you.
Speaker 2:What I was saying has nothing to do with Nate, but okay, yes, yes, I knew it was coming up, but this is it. Yeah, I know, okay, yeah, go ahead. This is the beginning of it, so how it's not beginning of anything.
Speaker 3:First of all, I know where you're going with this, because I need to figure out for myself how I can control my fucking stress without myself.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is a very good question, Harrison. I think that a lot of people who are maybe addicted- yeah, I know what you're about to say.
Speaker 3:I have to figure it out for myself.
Speaker 1:No, we're about to figure it out right here together. Okay, if you can understand of the things that we're about to figure it out right here together, okay, if you can understand of the things that we're about to talk about right thoroughly, you might be able to apply some strategies towards yourself to really get it and understand it. Okay, with pleasureful experiences like nicotine, caffeine, alcohol, drugs, food, sex.
Speaker 4:Am I missing any? I mean, those are like the bad ones.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wait, wait, wait, let's not label them bad, mike. Okay.
Speaker 4:Those are like the major.
Speaker 3:Just say major.
Speaker 1:No, what I'm saying is that those things that I've just labeled is that you're universally right. They're there to provide us pleasure, right? Give us pleasure, yeah Right, stress brings us pain, those things that I just mentioned sex, drugs, alcohol and all that stuff brings us pleasure. I've been trying to go. Listen to me. Listen you understand what I'm trying to. Listen to me. Listen you understand what I'm trying to say? I don't know I'm trying to.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to link and understand that certain stressors right, that we do have will cause us to do what seek pleasure, and different people seek pleasure in different things right, yeah, but are we talking about that Like we're trying to figure out a way of how to seek pleasure from stressors, or are we examining, maybe, like why actual stressors and why they stress us out in the first place?
Speaker 1:Because if we actually find out those things, those things, actually we should not be reacting to them the way we do react to them.
Speaker 2:Well, that's cool. That's what I was going to say, like, my opinion on those things is that I look at it as the two Ps. What are you talking about? Uh-oh, if you guess either of them, I give you $50 right now. Oh my God, the two peas. Five. He does like pancakes.
Speaker 3:Four Three Pankies.
Speaker 2:Pancakes, two, one Pancakes. No One is Pain in the ass, no One is Pain Perspective, and the other is perception. Okay, right, so depends on your perspective and depending on your perception will depend on, like, if something is is a stressful thing or not. For example, right, one thing we, we, you, you were just bringing up, right, like, in Japanese culture, they don't have problems, they have opportunities. So, for example, for one person, this is a problem, problems are supposed to, for example, for that person, cause stress, this particular reaction, because it's an issue, yes. Or you can look as a problem, like, for example, people are not booking meetings, let's just say that line, right there, right, that sentence, right. It could be viewed upon as like damn, I don't know what to like, damn, this sucks, I'm stressed, for example. Or it can be looked at as A numbers thing.
Speaker 1:Statistics.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no, or it can be looked at as well. Why is that happening? This is awesome. Now I can work towards figuring it out for example and it's not like a stressful situation.
Speaker 2:Now. It's an extremely interesting situation. Well, let me see. Okay, who am I speaking to? What's important to them? What am I saying? What am I offering them? How can it help them? You could go into a whole thing where it's like now you've identified, like when you the the. The best thing that can happen to you is you find out that something is wrong, because now you have an opportunity to fix it.
Speaker 3:If you don't have that mindset, if you have that kind of yeah perspective and perception of it right what do you do when you're someone that doesn't have that mindset? Well, there you go. If you don't. You're someone that doesn't have that mindset.
Speaker 1:Well, there you go. If you don't, you're fucked. Then you might have to use coping mechanisms that are out there for us, right, Like addictions. Right, Because they quickly relieve certain stressors. Right, by making us physically forget about them. Right, Like the nicotine, the drugs, the sex-induced pleasures that do Sex drugs, rock and roll. Yes, exactly, you understand. So if you know this and this is how this works, our psychology of a human being work then you try to figure things out and, like Toli said, then you're not just going straight automatically to saying that this is a problem, You're looking at it as an opportunity. Now, right? So you're redefining certain things in such a way where you have a positive outlook on it versus a negative one, right, yeah, that's your perception.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's your perception. Yeah, so there are no like there's no good or bad?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's no like good or bad things. There just are things. And then there is your perception and judgment of things, and that's kind of like how you determine whether like this is bad or good. If you're bad at making calls, if you're bad at making meaning like, like booking meetings, that's great, because what you know. What's worse than that is being bad at not knowing it. That that is a level before, because then you're stuck in a reality that you don't have the ability to feel like what's actually going on.
Speaker 2:You think you're doing good when you're actually doing bad, which is significantly worse than being in a situation where you identify that something is going bad. Because now that you've identified that something is going bad and you actually believe that you have the opportunity to educate yourself, you have the opportunity to ask for help. You have the opportunity to ask questions so that you can um work on whatever it is. You have the opportunity now to to, to fix things, to to, to do well. You have the opportunity to now learn right. There's plenty of people who are living in a different reality, like I said, where they're doing something and they have no clue what's actually going on. They think things are great when things are bad, for example, and that's like item to item. It doesn't have to be universally where everything they're doing is bad or everything that they're doing is good.
Speaker 4:So yeah, Does that answer any more questions?
Speaker 3:I understand what he's saying but I need to figure out how to change my mindset.
Speaker 4:Elder. I have a question. Yeah, Do you think specifically to me?
Speaker 3:well to anybody, but Well, he hasn't been here for the last two minutes.
Speaker 1:You said something profound.
Speaker 4:No, I totally did Okay. Do you think that addictions are developed because of, or maybe some kind of correlation to, cognitive dissonance?
Speaker 1:No, no, addictions are protective measures from things that we haven't figured out yet for ourselves that continue to bring us pain. We have addictions as automatic responses to things, as coping mechanisms for those things, so they just counter it. You know they just counter it. So we have outstanding anxieties, pains and stuff like that. So we go to eat, to drink, to do whatever. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:And what happens is with addictions, I think, is that they become ingrained in us, habitual things. They become habits. You know what I mean. When I'm nervous, I'm biting my nails. I don't even think that I'm biting my nails, I'm just doing it. You know what I'm saying. Else I'm just doing it. You know what I'm saying. I'm not even thinking about it, it's second nature now. So I think addictions work the same way.
Speaker 1:As soon as you get very specific pain, that's been associated with bad thing I'm going here and it's became automatic. So addiction is that automatic process that happens, right? Then also that negatively affects you because you fucking OD'd on it. You know what I'm saying. You're starting to OD on it because that's the only thing that was relieving stress for some time. Right, you didn't use it as medicine. Right, you've overused it and now you're getting the side effects of that medicine that was supposed to only relieve stress for a very specific amount of time, but you didn't. You stretched it out. So food right. You're like like, oh shit, that makes me feel good, you calm down, but you didn't work on the problem. So next time the problem comes about, you come, coming back, come back to eating right next thing, you know more problems, more problems keep piling up. You're overeating, just naturally. You're eating more because yo, I know your brain, your mind, your body, everything knows that I know when this thing's happen. I need to go do this, and it's already a blind experience.
Speaker 4:At that point I agree. But how does it develop? Is what I'm saying. What do?
Speaker 1:you mean it's a very natural development. We understand connections between what happens. So how do I change?
Speaker 4:I understand that, but I'm saying right, we have stress and our response is to cope with that stress. When that?
Speaker 1:but I'm saying right you, we have stress, yeah, and our response is to cope with that stress, yeah, potentially, when we discover to know how we cope with it, we just go with it. So we know every single time yeah, the stress.
Speaker 4:What is the cause of the stress? Is it not cognitive dissonance when you violate?
Speaker 1:the difference is just ignorance and cognitive dissonance and all those I'm saying like the, the cause of the stress is the violation of yourself.
Speaker 4:No, which is like sure, that's one of them. Yeah, right, yeah, people don't start, don't get stressed from having like a perfect life or whatever?
Speaker 1:No, of course not.
Speaker 2:No but I no but, the big thing there is the uh, the uh perception. Is that like it, it, it moment perception as to like how? What kind of relationship do you have with that? Like? I am or task or like what, what it is and that's my might or might not again, um, trigger a uh, a pain, a painful state, and there's plenty of things that one day, one like at one time in your life, cause you stress. And you still do those same things now, and they don't cause you any stress.
Speaker 4:You're still doing the same thing, but that's not by accident.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, it's definitely not by accident, yeah.
Speaker 4:So then that's like, that's like intentional effort there I want to get back to what fucking Tolly said.
Speaker 1:Okay, what did he say? Fill me in, since I was peeing.
Speaker 3:That some people right since I was peeing that some people right have the mindset where they get fucking stressed out. And then you have other people that uses it, say, for the meetings he was talking about. You're booking meetings or you're not. You're doing terrible, blah, blah, blah. And some people go okay, great, let me see why I'm not booking meetings. Okay, okay, great, let me see why I'm not booking meetings. Okay, in this shit. So how do you get from let's put it this way my mindset? I'll tell you how my mindset to yours.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you how. Right now, you want to go, or are you? No, no, I know it, but go ahead. Okay, there's also two things that we have to rope in here. One of them, mike's gonna like for sure Go.
Speaker 3:And one of them's gonna be like holy fuck again.
Speaker 2:The. H word, okay, yes.
Speaker 3:What? How do I get from my current mindset to yours?
Speaker 2:Things that things in your current perspective, that you perceive are causing you stress or that are hard things, is actually you being in the moment, an arrogant piece of shit and not being humble and not being in the mindset of a learner or a person who's seeking information? Because a seeker of information and I'll, I'll, I'll say it again a seeker information from moment to moment cannot get stressed, it's impossible, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because he's humble enough to know that he doesn't know and that he has the ability to seek for help or seek learning. So you can't get stressed or anything If you don't book a certain amount of meetings, or maybe a certain amount of people don't show up and that gets you upset, or somebody tells you no or the phone. It's your arrogance that there should have been a different outcome. For example, they should have said yes or they should have attended.
Speaker 3:What the fuck, you should know better. Well, you should. I mean, you even said that you know that should have been a fucking closed meeting, that right there, man.
Speaker 1:Well, it's for him, yeah, for you, in the state that you're in.
Speaker 2:So based on where he's standing.
Speaker 1:He wants you to get to that place where you can book that meeting based on the knowledge that you should have. But you don't yet have the same knowledge. That's why there's a disconnect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when you realize, for example, that you don't have it or it's not going, you could go in the way where you're pissed off at yourself or the situation because you fumbled the call or are you going. Okay, I'm going to have a relentless effort to seek information and to learn and you'll never have stress, ever again on that subject.
Speaker 1:And that's why the Friday meetings, when we do the call reviews, you are stressing about it why For you, it's the worst thing ever where I'm doing it.
Speaker 2:I was like what do you mean? You have Eldar and I listening to every single word that's going on. Obviously, it's easier If we were to record both of our calls. We were both dropped the ball on particular things or not say things right. But if we were to listen to those and analyze them and have somebody who knows they're talking about um help, we can dissect everything and we can prepare basically almost for the worst, for everything, and then it becomes very easy, because it's not the every call is not the hardest and the worst and the most difficult type of situation.
Speaker 2:There are actually a lot of repeatable like we talk about repeatable objections, repeatable issues, repeatable problems that we as salespeople can educate ourselves and know what they are ahead of time, so that maybe we're surprised only 20% of the time. Then we get surprised 10% of the time, then we get surprised 10% of the time, and that number keeps getting lower and lower, because you speak to the same people that have the same things just in all different situations and volumes and company sizes and all that, but it's the same thing. Yeah, right, but it's the perspective, then, and your perception that you have towards those things.
Speaker 1:You have an already preconditioned mind to feel and judge the situation. You understand you don't look at it as like, okay, this is an opportunity for me to learn from these guys. It's not like we're about to sit down and fire you right, like, okay, harris, we're gonna count. If you fucked up on three calls, you're fired, then you can get stressed. You can get stressed about it. We're not saying that. We're saying, hey, we can learn from this. We can help you right and help supposed to be right on on paper like a good thing, right. But the people who are arrogant, right or prideful or have a big ego, right to them it's like, oh shit, here we go, I'm about to be judged. Yeah, understand, yeah. So again, from what he's talking about is that perception, or seeing things for what they are, is very important. We are not your enemies during that call, we are your guides only if you perceive it in that kind of way, correct?
Speaker 3:but if you don't of course it's going to be a painful experience, so how do you fucking get?
Speaker 1:you have to crawl on your knees right now and kiss Toli's feet those, the sweaty fucking things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can't fucking do that.
Speaker 1:I'm just joking, yeah, but it's humility, all right. Again, it is.
Speaker 3:It's the big word and it's it's hard to do you keep saying it, but how do you go from here?
Speaker 1:well, I think the first thing, the first step, is to wanting to do that right. Based on everything that we describe, is it something that you have to ask yourself like, hey, do I want to get there? And why for yourself, not for us? We have our own reasons as to why we should be humble in order to get some wisdom about life and then live life in such a way where it's a happy life. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:yeah, like, but we have those reasons yeah, you, you always hear that phrase what, what's your, why, right, like or like that kind of kind of stuff that, like you know, some why do you? Do what you do, yeah, or like some of those motivations book is like find your why. I think it's an actual book yeah right, it's to find out why.
Speaker 2:Why find? Find your why, yeah, but, like in this case, it pretty much is. That is that, like the, the, the actual learning of it is the easiest part of this, the absolute easiest, because the information is already there. The letting go of the ego is the hard part the, the ego and the why is the hard part.
Speaker 1:That's why, sometimes, when you're talking out of your ass quote, unquote that's what we always call you out, right? I say, hey, harris, why do you say this? Because you're already on automatic pilot, knowing to spit out random facts. But we are listening. So we call you out and ask you and then like, next thing, you know, like, oh yeah, that's fake news. Oh yeah, that's fake news. I did it again. I did it again. That's your bad habit. You know what I'm saying. And for people who are actually paying attention, it's very easy to spy. Like you cannot get away from us, but you're like a highlighter, right? It's like so easy to spot you and to catch you on this bullshit. You know what I mean. But to you, you think that you, you know, you still know something, but you have to disprove that for yourself.
Speaker 2:Don't stop chewing chewing like a cow man that's because I keep putting more.
Speaker 3:I got like three pieces of gum.
Speaker 4:This is a stressful topic for him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, which which is the most interesting thing, because I think that, like the lifelong, like confusion that people have is that they, they think that the information is the hard part to figure, figure out oh you know what, but I think that's what.
Speaker 1:I think that the the way that psychology is set up and the way this whole thing is set up, it's it's supposed to be like that and the illusion is supposed to be the illusion, because, yeah, yeah, because I think, um, the battle is an internal battle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's both, both sides sides of it. There's the ego, yeah, and maybe there's the, the desire to learn, yeah, and they're and they're and and they're like, uh, at odds. So I think that might be why Because the thought that the hard part is the information is more of a neutral side, right, information itself is not something that's against the ego or for the ego, for example. It's something that maybe both sides can agree upon as like okay, fine.
Speaker 3:So how do you get to expedite?
Speaker 2:I guess you, you say, which is a fucking arrogant as fuck statement again that you're making to get over this arrogance and shit like this.
Speaker 3:Am I supposed to go in the middle of the desert by myself? No phone, no, nothing and basically crawl around the desert and just suffer to get to the point where I'm like, all right.
Speaker 1:Remember that moment that you had when you were reading the book? Which one? The first book? There was a lot of moments, well, exactly, you had plenty of moments where you're like, wow, that's profound, that's very interesting. Right, you like yo, they should teach this in schools. Right, there's something about you in that moment where, whatever it is that you were reading and the person that was perceiving this and reading this had an experience. You had that experience. It was a very special experience for you, correct? Yes, exactly Right. So, through those types of experiences, you can finally pause and maybe challenge yourself as to say, like, wait's what you, exactly what you're doing read the book all over again possibly possibly, yeah, um, you're challenging yourself and asking the question.
Speaker 1:It's like wait, did I get this whole thing wrong? Right, because the book is telling you one thing. Right, you're reading it and you're like yo, this is good stuff.
Speaker 2:Right, and they're co-signing and they're giving you some of the nice things that they talk about yeah, but in in that process you also have some kind of inherent like um, um, because maybe you're like a bit like afraid of like the world or whatnot. You have some inherent respect for the people that are saying, well, that's what I was gonna get to that yeah the fact that you, you know, you esteem them.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. You have a little bit more of like. I'm paying attention, yes, you know so what you're doing. That right, you're taking their belief systems, you're adopting them for the very, very specific moment and you're challenging yourself against those, against those things, and you're like, oh shit, that sounds nice. That's your internal self telling you that you probably got something wrong and you want to adopt that which is they're talking about. The more of this kind of stuff that you'll have, the more, sooner or later, you're gonna fire yourself and say you know what?
Speaker 3:I got it all wrong. I'd like to do it differently. How's your fire?
Speaker 2:my name now is Muhammad, can you take that into a bit? I got five dollars on it, huh.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, don't, don't turn that man. Yeah, $25 on a plane. Huh, yeah, yeah he's retired from his mom.
Speaker 3:Yes, don't, don't turn that man, yeah.
Speaker 1:But, but even because he made that joke, I think he understands what I said. Of course he does.
Speaker 2:Okay, I told you 20 minutes ago, or 30 minutes ago, that he already understands.
Speaker 3:Would you stop it, bro? So how do? But I understand, I'm going to get to the point that I'm going to fire myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:When is that?
Speaker 2:point. I think it depends on how focused you are Right. Lots of times you're all over the place as to what's going on, what you're doing Right, what you want to do, what you don't want to do, how you feel Like. I know firsthand that if you don't consistently feel a particular way, it's very difficult to do anything to get through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's right, like if you don't consistently feel a particular way, just like in general. Right, like you consistently get, let's just say, the number is five hours of sleep or six hours of sleep, or seven hours of sleep, or which I've been doing, whatever. Right, like if you don't consistently get a certain amount, or you don't consistently eat a particular way or feel a particular way, or like I don't know, just in general, if there's madness to your life from day to day, how can you maintain focus, like how can you? How can you humbly come to learn something?
Speaker 1:Do you understand that you have Alzheimer's?
Speaker 2:or dementia.
Speaker 1:No, I understand that have.
Speaker 3:Alzheimer's or dementia? Fuck you. No, I understand that my sleep schedule is.
Speaker 2:No, it's not even necessarily about that.
Speaker 3:My entire life is off the charts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that could be a thing, right. If you have so much variance to how you feel every day, how can you be humble and how can you have any kind of focus or pursuit of learning? I think it's impossible because you have too many different things every day, you don't have consistency and you have all kinds of like perceived problems daily. But if you start removing all those and you start to commit to maybe having some kind of recurring thing right, having some kind of recurring thing right Like recurring schedule or like recurring thing that, that, that that you go by, I think that you'll have a particular calmness that'll allow you to start to ask questions or start to focus or maintain some kind of attention on something. Because if you don't, we all have these built-in ADDs that our minds will roam to all the different problems or issues or pains that we have and none of us can come humbly or try to learn something or focus on something in those moments or days.
Speaker 3:So I want to point something out. I'm totally, today, asked me if I wanted to be taking these meds for the rest of my life. What the hell is that supposed to mean?
Speaker 1:He asked you a question. Yeah, well, he just asked you a question.
Speaker 2:Well, no, I asked that because you said that, like there's pills for like, for, like you know, for like the nicotine and stuff like that. And you know, I just started taking those and I was like, do you want?
Speaker 3:like happy pills. You take a pill. All of a sudden their mood changes from this depressed person to this happy girl person. That's way too fucking happy. What the fuck are you on?
Speaker 1:it's happy pills.
Speaker 3:I've seen it happen before, like I've seen friends like they've been depressed and shit, they take this pill and it's like they're too happy. They can't get a fucking smile off their goddamn face.
Speaker 1:What the fuck is wrong with this?
Speaker 3:guy. That's where I was going at that point. But I can see what you're saying. Right, things need to change. I need to set myself up on a schedule. I need to change a lot of shit in my life, right, because I'd go from one night I'd get five hours of sleep, one night I get six one night I get seven, one night I get four.
Speaker 2:It's all over the fucking place. Well, that that could just be, for example, like one thing, right, but it's also like eating, yeah, like eating breakfast, like if you're one day eating a crazy heavy breakfast, one day eating no breakfast, one day eating somewhere in the middle, like and every day is different, like that also, I think, creates like inconsistencies and and like uh, different stuff. Like that. Or like if you have particular problems that are recurring every single day, that, like you're you, you have, you have a perception as, like these things are problems, I mean it also makes it hard. How can you humbly learn if you have those things? You have fires to put out? The last thing on your mind is going to be trying to learn sales or trying to learn a craft. You got too much shit to already do.
Speaker 1:And what happens in those kinds of states is that the problems that you think you have problems with they're not actual problems, but the problems that you think that you don't have are the actual problems. So your whole shit is backwards On Fridays when you feel like, oh shit, I'm about to have a problem here with the guys. That's not an actual problem, you perceive it as a problem but that's actually a good thing for you, where you going out and hanging outside, you're like, oh, this is gonna be perfectly fine, I'm just gonna go spend all this money with the strippers or all this other shit right bringing that fucking shit up again as an example all right, you're like, oh, that's not a problem, but that's an actual problem.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. So everything is backwards because you don't see things for what they are. The whole point of this kind of thing is like the ability to see things for what they are and then do something about it so you can be happier. Because right now, if you're all over the place, you're like yo, I can't control myself. This and that, up and down, all these mood swings. Right, that means you're not doing something, right, if you're complaining. So addictions what did you extract from addictions, from this? Addictions are super necessary, right, in a way?
Speaker 3:in a way, they play their purpose. They play their purpose to kill you, bro or make you realize it's all about the mindset like that's the end of it. So it's in about the mindset like that's the end of it so it's in the mind.
Speaker 1:Look back to Mike. What Mike said, mike, it's all in your head yeah, he never told us his addictions, man okay. Why don't you hit him with it, mike? I?
Speaker 4:don't have any he.
Speaker 3:I mean, you have been his friend for 20 years. Is that affirmative?
Speaker 1:You always want somebody else to fight your battles.
Speaker 3:Huh, no, I'm not asking you to fight my battles. He says he doesn't have any. Is he saying?
Speaker 1:it seriously or is he saying it as a joke?
Speaker 3:I think he's saying it as a joke, but hey, maybe he doesn't want to open up about it. What's your diction, man? Everyone's got one at least. Yeah, Okay. What's your addiction, man? Everyone's got one at least.
Speaker 4:Yeah, buzzing. What the fuck is buzzing? Good question. Buzzing is like doing a lot of shit, always being on the go, like not slowing down, like on the move all the time, doing a lot of things at once and nothing, maybe at the same time, and then that's that type of stuff right accumulates to get him in trouble, right.
Speaker 1:He thinks that it provides him maybe happiness in the moment, right to distract him for whatever it is that he maybe he's feeling he starts buzzing, he starts doing stuff fast, maybe happiness in the moment, right To distract him from whatever it is that maybe he's feeling he starts buzzing, he starts doing stuff fast, whatever. But in those processes, in those moments, he actually is hurting himself by overextending himself to his friends, by developing relationships that are hurtful to him, where he doesn't respect himself right, by, you know, associating himself with people that maybe can hurt him, not respect him Right, because he's overextending himself. That's buzzing, right. That leads to certain things that actually hurt him, even though he in the moment feels that it might protect him or give him some kind of pleasure. Got it, or people pleasing, right. So how do you feel about that?
Speaker 3:I can see that you can see that. I can see that. Okay, please share. I just understand where you're coming from, okay have you observed the buzzing behavior or not? I mean, I've seen you on the go man, I've seen you on the go man, I've seen you, I move yeah. Well, you can't sit still man, that's one thing you can't sit still. You'll be sitting at your desk. Two minutes later you'll be over here doing this and then you're back at your desk. You're doing two things at once.
Speaker 2:He has a pinball.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're doing two things at once, yeah, but hey, you get shit done.
Speaker 1:At what cost? Yeah, at what cost? You can get shit done just like any other person can gamble and be perfectly fine. Gamble $100, they'll be perfectly fine. They're not going to feel any type of way. But some people $100 is not enough. They'll gamble a lot more.
Speaker 3:See, I was very surprised with myself. I come from, I guess you could say, an alcoholic family, but I don't drink every day. I don't believe I'm addicted to it.
Speaker 1:For now.
Speaker 3:But I take shots. It only took my father a couple times and he was fucking hooked. He was an abusive alcoholic.
Speaker 1:Why am I, I think, your perception of it? I think you're misunderstanding. If you took the knowledge that we talked about just now, you clearly explained as to why your dad was a certain type of way and why you are a certain type of way right now.
Speaker 3:But I was addicted to nicotine. I'm going to tell you right now.
Speaker 1:If I took all the stressors your dad had in his life, all the stressors that he had in his life, and installed them somehow into you, trust me, the same outcome would have been.
Speaker 3:But I was always surprised how could?
Speaker 1:I be. Did you understand what I?
Speaker 3:said I did, I did, but if I was, my mom always used to say, was it's an addictive personality? That's the problem. Addictive personality, you know, uh, she goes. You know, don't know. You know you shouldn't drink that much because you have an addictive personality. I was addicted to nicotine, but I don't, I'm not addicted. You're addicted to spreading fake news. Oh, it is, but I'm not addicted to alcohol, not addicted to gambling. So how is an addictive personality? What are you saying? Or what are you asking? How is it addictive? How do I have an addictive personality?
Speaker 1:You just cope with things differently, right Than your dad did, right For now, alcohol is not an outlet for you to deal with the stresses that you have. Can it potentially develop into that? Absolutely, the jury is still out on that. You're 25 years old. You know what I'm saying. So we'll see what happens in 5, 10, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years. We'll see whether or not you're going to have the same habits and same outcomes. We don't know yet. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think it depends on what choices you make and what situations you put yourself in, right?
Speaker 3:I mean, do I go overboard? Absolutely Do I? But I go overboard? Absolutely Do I? But I drink on the weekends? Yeah, do I go overboard? Fuck yeah, do I go too far? Absolutely. I'm young and stupid, as I would say. Young and damn, mm-hmm, you know, trying to enjoy my 20s man Okay, all right. Well then you have a positive on addiction trying to enjoy my 20s man Okay.
Speaker 4:Alright. Well then you have a pass then on addiction, because you're in your 20s, so you could be how long you want to keep the addiction going for. So we'll cut you off in how many years? What do you mean, dude? No, you said you're in your 20s, so how many years you want to keep going? So once you hit 30, then we're done, right?
Speaker 3:With the addiction. I'm not saying I'm keeping the addiction going. I'm saying I'm having a good time, man, I'm enjoying life. I'm not getting serious about relationships. I'm not doing this.
Speaker 4:I'm enjoying it. So you're not addicted to cigarettes, I mean vaping. I'm addicted to vaping.
Speaker 3:Right, what about other stuff? I'm working the problem. I used to have a run of those. You said you work the problem, you work the problem yeah, what about it are you addicted to? Uh?
Speaker 4:letting people put noodles on your head or no?
Speaker 3:what, what?
Speaker 4:you used this fucking term before uh, can you explain it out there? No, I can't understand what you're saying. He's addicted to letting people put noodles on his head. No, other people put noodles on his head.
Speaker 3:What the hell is noodles.
Speaker 4:I'm not sure if he.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think so. Yeah, yeah, I don't view that as like yeah.
Speaker 1:I think he's addicted, maybe, to like, spreading shock value. Oh yeah Of, like you know, saying things that he thinks he knows, you know oh yeah, yeah, I mean. No, I don't think he has any kind of like a very specific addiction, that's no, I don't. I was predominant and dominating his life yeah, in such a way where he can't function or grow. No, no, no so yeah, Okay so so fake news man.
Speaker 3:Fuck you, man. Your addiction is fake news. What do you mean? It's fake news.
Speaker 1:What I need to do is we clearly found that the fact that your mind can be pulled and stretched and pushed towards a place where you are not paying attention to your addictions, but more so focusing on things that actually make you feel good.
Speaker 3:So how do I mix that in with work? Well, there you go.
Speaker 1:You have to define or redefine your perspectives about certain things.
Speaker 3:So how do I do that in an expedited time?
Speaker 1:Why would you want to expedite something like this? Everybody wants to expedite, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I understand that too, because once you maybe find something that kind of sounds good, you want to figure out a way to Do it quickly. Do it quickly.
Speaker 3:You can expedite it and start the process?
Speaker 1:Do you think good things that are going to make your life better are things that you can expedite?
Speaker 3:Some things, yeah, Okay like what.
Speaker 1:Some things yeah you know Like what? Because I think I personally think, Harris that the things that, that these things that we're talking about, right, these values, these belief systems and stuff like that, they take a very specific amount of time based on who you are. So you're saying there's nothing less and there's nothing more about them when it comes to the timeline, because you say I need to hit the bottom.
Speaker 3:So shouldn't I expedite hitting the bottom? I'm not sure if you can expedite anything yeah.
Speaker 4:You don't force yourself like I'm not sure if you can. I don't know if you can do that. Yeah, I mean, you don't force yourself like I'm an addict. Let me go fill my addiction and get drunk as possible.
Speaker 1:You do that, naturally yeah, but I'm not saying do that, I'm saying you are, you're saying I need to hit bottom right okay, the only advice that I can give you around that type of thing is to become curious. But what does that mean? That's right.
Speaker 1:The lifelong question. Yes, what does that mean? What it means is like become a questioner about everything. Right, why, why, why? Go back to when you were a little kid. We all had this stage where we wondered about the world Before we were. Yes, right, you were maybe in the wrong hands at the time with your dad and your mom, who had a very specific perception of the world Before we were obstructed.
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly so maybe to some degree if you want to. Oh, the book said that Good, so I'm trying to say it in a different word maybe when you were raised, your parents put their belief system, so it became your belief system correct, and now you're living, you have to evaluate whether or not these are actually your beliefs.
Speaker 1:That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that you might want to go back to the why, why this, why that stage, right, uh, and hopefully that the people around you can guide you to a place where you're like, oh, oh shit, that makes sense, that makes sense, right, but you want to have the right people with right intentions around there. Hopefully, you have those types of people.
Speaker 3:That's a stupid question. Okay fine, hello, okay good, hello, yeah, how you doing Hi.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying. Yeah, so that's way too expedited. Can it be naturally done? I'm not sure what do you mean, like where it's like you have a natural gravitation towards that. I don't know what it takes to spark that kind of thing. You know what I mean. I can just tell you that this is how it works, or this is how you should be acting, but can you do it sustainably, every single day?
Speaker 3:You tell me, man, you're the caseworker, man, you got to experience this type of shit.
Speaker 1:I'm usually the slow and steady thing. You know what I mean. I kind of take whatever it is that you're presenting and I go with it Totally likes to push a little bit more. It's like trying to force the issue. You know what I mean. So you have two different schools of thought here. You know what I mean Like forcing it, pushing it or me kind of like. You know it takes time. You know good things take time. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:How much time?
Speaker 1:A lifetime, dude. A lifetime. It depends what you're trying to get to. You know, you want to just make money, that's one timeline. You want to be want to just make money, that's one timeline. You want to be a good, kind person, that's another. You want to be an actualized, enlightened being, that's another timeline. So all these things have timelines. How do we get to president? That has a timeline. We gave you that one 25 years. Oh, jesus Christ, we'll get you there. There, it's a very long time.
Speaker 3:That's a good time. I'll be 50 something. It's perfect. What happens? Do I want to be the youngest?
Speaker 1:is that like a desire of yours? Why do you want to break that record? Don't you want to be the best know? I think we can get you there In 24 years 2040?
Speaker 3:2050? Yeah, 2050.
Speaker 1:Higher streets are 2050 present there you go Sounds good, so is addiction real.
Speaker 2:Would you know what's crazy? That's what in like 25 years, right 26?.
Speaker 3:What 25?
Speaker 2:How many presidents are going to be in that time frame? A lot. Well, it depends if it's four or eight year term. But like, even at the maximum, what If it's only four? Eight, eight presidents.
Speaker 1:Maximum would be eight. Will the United.
Speaker 3:States still be here.
Speaker 1:Because if it's four, then you have a lot more presidents. If it's eight, it's a lot less presidents?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but 25 divided by four is what? Three?
Speaker 1:By four.
Speaker 4:Six, yes, 25 divided by four. Six, yeah, but you said maximum. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Three, 25 divided by 4? 6. Yeah, but you said maximum. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. 3.
Speaker 2:No 25 by 4?, that's 4. You said maximum, though.
Speaker 4:Yeah, maximum term is 8 years. Yeah, no, no, no, everybody goes 8, 8, and 8.
Speaker 2:No, no, the maximum amount of presidents, which would mean that each president would serve 4 years, 6 presidents maximum. Yeah, are constantly changed. Six presidents maximum yeah, but you're going to have presidents.
Speaker 3:Harris is six people away. You're going to have presidents that serve multiple terms.
Speaker 2:And if you have that, then Harris is like three presidents away.
Speaker 3:Hello there, I'm coming for your asses.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good. That's why we have to make sure we do a good job.
Speaker 3:There's going to be troops roaming this fucking street boy.
Speaker 1:They don't know what's coming right.
Speaker 3:The world there ain't going to be no gas cars in 25 years. You hear Anybody want beer?
Speaker 1:No, I'm good so.
Speaker 3:Going to be flying cars in 25 years. I promise you that.
Speaker 4:So, harris, what's the the word? Where are you rushing to? Who's rushing you?
Speaker 2:you weren't expedited, yeah, I think that that's like always, a natural feeling everybody has that you know, you don't actually know how long something should take you know that you're on something good but yeah you also. You don't understand that your burnout rate is yeah that, and like you don't know anything about it, so your automatic thing is to go faster yeah it's not like hey, how should I take my time to make sure I get this right?
Speaker 4:yeah, the thing is, harris, the solution is like. It's like, um, not the solution, but the question you're asking is you have a certain belief system, right, and you behave out of that belief system, right, yeah, and that belief system is like gravity. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah, so your belief system is like gravity. For you to make a conscious effort to go against it every single moment, every single day, is going to take some time, so that you implement a new belief system which is going to become your new gravity. Okay, it's going to take time, it's going to be difficult, right?
Speaker 4:You always, we always go back to the things that we know because they're very conditioned in our minds already and the responses are conditioned. Our actions are conditioned, based on our belief system. So you would need to change your belief system so that your gravity will be in line with your new belief system, which is living a different way. If you feel that it's the right way, right. If you feel that it's the right way, right. So if you understand that, you understand what's what's required, you understand a little bit, like. You know that it's not just that simple as like oh, how do I do it faster?
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:What's this uh dipshit doing over here? Who this numb nuts over here standing over there?
Speaker 4:I don't know. He's probably doing some addictive behavior.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm saying. This guy's standing in the corner being weird, so, harris, are you comfortable?
Speaker 1:with the topic. Did you get a little bit more clarity? Because you had a problem with it earlier in the week. Yeah, a problem with it earlier when we earlier in the week. Yeah, I think that, um, I personally think that you're stronger than you think. Your mind is stronger than that, you think right um.
Speaker 1:It's just the toxins sure, sure, I think that you can probably do a little cop out on the toxins, but I think that if you actually told yourself that, no, I got this and I have bigger fish to fry and I have some stuff that I have to, focus on.
Speaker 3:I'm just a very weak person, huh.
Speaker 1:Well, no, I'm trying to give you props here and actually show you that we have examples as to why, and totally said that we have examples. Everybody observed you that you did perfectly fine, considering that you did a whole week already without smoking. You didn't really lose your shit Like you did a whole week already without smoking. You didn't really lose your shit Like you did pretty good. You know what I mean. You've directed your mind to something else. You focused, and that's what I was thinking about in the bathroom. I think that addiction is probably also correlated with attention deficit disorder. Right, not saying that actual, you know ADD or ADHD, but it's definitely hitting at that tension.
Speaker 1:Because if you have the ability to focus like Harris did on the book, right on a very specific topic for long periods of time, he was perfectly fine but as soon as that tension goes somewhere else and you have to solve all the problems in the world, what happens is you go automatically to like okay, where's my stress, where's my relief where's my relief?
Speaker 4:give me my relief. Well, adhd is a very pleasure-seeking behavior. Maximum pleasure you always seek, you're always trying to seek that.
Speaker 1:So that's what I'm saying, that if you you know, yeah, but I'm on meds for that man Well sure, for now, right For now. I think that the more you have these types of conversations and learn about yourself or who you are, I think that you have the ability to probably conquer everything and everything about yourself and the world, so you can be a good, happy human. But obviously you know, the jury's still out and it's still going to take time.
Speaker 3:Yay.
Speaker 1:You excited about that.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:So what do you think Anything else on addiction?
Speaker 4:So is addiction dead, harris, you were trying to kill it this morning. Is it dead or not?
Speaker 3:I guess it is yeah why what do you guys mean?
Speaker 4:that like addiction is dead no, I'm asking Mike, because Mike said it's all in the head and I guess in a way yeah, that's still can make it, I mean alive.
Speaker 2:Like why? Why does that to me?
Speaker 3:I get it. I guess in a way it is in people head. Right, people said right. I mean, I've seen videos where they've had to tie people down when they're heavy drug users to the point where they make them sweat it out and to the point where them sweating it out, it could kill them. Right, because they're so fucking addicted they're sweating out these drugs, their blood pressure's going up, they're sweating like motherfuckers.
Speaker 2:You know Well, I think there's levels to it in the sense that if you're doing a highly addictive deadly drug and you're in this recurring cycle cycle and you're never able to get into like a sober state of mind or like any of that, I mean I think, yeah, not that it's impossible, but it's very unlikely for you to get out of that cycle unless you have external like, like, like intervention right where, like I don't know again, like you end up in the hospital or like, um, yeah, someone like you know helps you and then, like I don't know if you, uh, if the tie-down method's even possible now.
Speaker 3:But now tie down nothing.
Speaker 2:No, you need medication yeah, like they, they try to get you to that place where you can get put in a position where you yourself then have a desire to think, think it through yeah, to like think it through and like put, put protocols in place for you, yeah, and like effort into like quitting and living a better life, but like those are like very extreme circumstances that's why I said I felt like a cracker.
Speaker 1:I woke up and my fucking nerves, my arms tingling, see, I sure, and I think my fucking nerves, you know my arms tingling, it's fucking see, I sure and I think that's probably the only reason why that is is because you haven't actually woken up yet and told yourself who you are.
Speaker 3:Oh shit you got something to say?
Speaker 1:no, sorry, I sneezed you know what I'm saying. I think that in general, right now you are in pain, harris, and you're not really, like, aware of the pain that you're going through. You know what I mean? And obviously certain nicotine and certain chemicals can pronounce that pain a little bit more if you don't have a certain level of them in your body. So your mind's like oh shit, I'm in pain, yeah, I need I need, I need.
Speaker 3:It's like my version of papanoxies in pain. Okay, is that what you're saying? I'm not sure, what that means you're saying I'm thinking huh, emotional pain, what whatever?
Speaker 2:you got all kinds of pain yeah it's all up, yeah you.
Speaker 1:Should you? Because there's a lot of stressors that are hitting you at the same time and that you have to cope with and deal with Right, and because you don't have good systems in place in order to take care of them all. Right, you need certain things that be able to pacify you, and nicotine being one of them, caffeine being another one, sex drugs and alcohol and all that shit Sex Caffeine being another one, sex drugs and alcohol and all that other shit, sex drugs and rock and roll. You know what I mean. So you use them as coping mechanisms versus something else you know. But as you start to get to know yourself who you are, what triggers you, what doesn't, you're going to start slowly trying to hopefully do preventative care, preventative measures.
Speaker 1:I shouldn't be thinking this way. I should be thinking this way. I should be thinking this way why am I asking this? Why am I doing this? Why is this? And when you start asking those questions, you're going to start having that little buffer zone where you can don't jump into conclusions, but rather think it through first or ask for help from people around you who care for you before you jump into a conclusion like, oh, I should have fucked up and next thing, you know, you're like oh, I want to smoke. You know what I'm saying, what the hell was that, bro.
Speaker 3:What the hell was that? That was sick. What the hell was that? You saw what I was doing.
Speaker 1:That's how this works, right. So I think that if you understand the correlation between your pain and the things that you're quote unquote, if you understand that correlation in that relationship, you clearly understand that, look, I just don't have to get into pain anymore in order to then prevent myself. And if we could do that. This stuff, like the addiction stuff, becomes easier and easier and easier because you are no longer the same person that used to deal with shit the same way. However, if you don't right, there's a lot of addicts that constantly have the recurring problem. If they don't know how to deal with life, what they do is they relapse?
Speaker 3:because it's the easiest path to what? Numbing your shit.
Speaker 1:No man Pleasure. We have to use the right stuff.
Speaker 3:You use it as pleasure, but I could also numb it for the time being.
Speaker 1:No, but not in that moment. In the moment it's pleasureful because you're on under stress and now you finally can go and be happy. That's your easiest path to victory. That's why it's completely normal effect and that's why you can predict certain behaviors, because if an individual sits down and say I'm an addict and they don't have any tools, you probably know that he's going to relapse.
Speaker 2:He or she is going to rel realize. That's also why the general life model in many, many places all around the country is what it's in a nutshell of. What's going on right. Monday through Friday is work. Weekend is pleasure Party on the weekends. Hang out on the weekends, then damn, it's Sunday night. Work is tomorrow. Yeah and then you have to talk of it out until the next weekend. Yeah, and people like again you have this expression where they, they, uh, they live for the weekend.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they live for maybe like because like sunday night's already also dead, like they live for like a day and a half right.
Speaker 4:Yeah Is addiction. Addiction is it's a pleasure, right Seeking behavior.
Speaker 1:No, bro, no, Tell me what addiction is what you're perceiving as to be, based on everything that has been said, and I'll tell you whether or not you got it right.
Speaker 4:No, what I was saying is, like addiction is pleasureful behavior, but on the back end there's always the pain. Right, maybe not instant, but with time, right there's always a pain. So that's what I was trying to say.
Speaker 2:So is is part of the goal, or maybe ideally, is to find something that has a pleasure element, like a pleasure thing, because I think you know, obviously pleasures feels good, but without the the pain that comes with it well, I, I, I'm, I'm not sure if it's fine to find something that necessarily right. I think it's your perception and perspective to that thing.
Speaker 2:You know like um like um, in any circumstance, for example, where you're like, if you're seeking pleasure on something, like a lot of these things inherently that either cause pain or pleasure. I don't know if they're like inherently pleasurable or painful things, right Like it's just your. I don't know if they're like inherently Pleasurable or Painful things, right Like it's just your.
Speaker 1:Your association with it, your understanding your relationship.
Speaker 2:To it right. So I'm not sure if it's Finding something, I think it's. It's you having the ability to See things for what they are and have like A proper relationship. It's you having the ability to see things for what they are and have like a proper relationship with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and have a proper relationship with that thing some people we talked about coffee before right, honestly couldn't drink coffee. That's what came to mind, right, yeah, why? Because somebody else judged and said oh, the caffeine is bad for you. Yeah, well, she associated like yo, it's my time, it's for me, I feel good about it, I sit down, I relax, I reflect this is a very good experience?
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure. So what are we talking about here? Right, right, but somebody else was judging her and saying hey, you shouldn't be doing this, you shouldn't be doing that, or some other people was like Drinking like eight cups a day, Exactly Just like you said cigarettes. Your association with cigarettes. Some people have to have a cigarette after one. You're not addicted, you're like, okay, this is a good moment, I feel like having a cigarette.
Speaker 4:I don't understand what you guys are saying. Yeah, but it sounds like we're saying the same thing. No.
Speaker 1:No, no. You're asking whether or not to figure something out. He's saying no, you're. You have to see it for what it is and have a proper perception on it. You know what I? Mean okay, I don't understand still like you said, find some pleasureful thing. He's saying, don't find anything. Redefine the thing that is pleasureful for pleasure, full that it is like cigarettes.
Speaker 4:You redefined it for yourself that you can have a cigarette and not associated with a bad moment no, I was saying to find something to do, something that has pleasure, uh-huh, but doesn't have the back end pain, no, yeah, well, that's what we're saying, is that you're um, when, when, when?
Speaker 2:you're saying that, you're saying that there are some things that have pleasure without no, but I'm not saying that no, but no. But you are saying that You're saying find something that doesn't have it which means that by default, you're saying that some things do have it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but how is it? I get what you're saying, but I think we're just having a wordage thing here. You are the one who decides if it's pleasure or pain. As well, you decide this, your association with it. I never said that, like yo, you find something that's pleasure and not pain. Yeah, that's what you said.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying that, no, no, that's what you said.
Speaker 4:No, no, I didn't say that. I said I found something. That's pleasure, but I didn't say that who's going to define it?
Speaker 2:No, but you're saying find something that is pleasure.
Speaker 4:I'm not saying that you can I have pain with it. Yeah, you said that I know, I know, I know, I know I'm saying, but you are the one who defines that. I didn't say that you weren't the one who defines that the way you're saying it is like I'm saying like yeah, you can't smoke because it's pain. I'm saying that you can smoke, you can drink, you can gamble.
Speaker 2:Those are pleasurable, but you're not finding any, so you're not finding anything that doesn't like. You're not finding anything well, you're finding the approach, then, I guess yeah, yeah, because by saying that you're finding something that gives you pleasure.
Speaker 1:When you said find something, you're finding a thing. When you're saying you're finding approach, you're finding. Yeah, not a thing. Yeah, sure, sure yeah, that's what.
Speaker 4:That's what I'm trying to get to like, okay, I? I think the word. I use is wrong but I think we mean the same thing.
Speaker 1:I hope we mean the same thing, yeah, but my question is why you choose very specific words to describe a specific thing.
Speaker 4:Because in my head I'm asking a question I don't know. Yeah, but the way you ask it is, you have an assumption.
Speaker 2:You're saying an assumption within the question. What's the assumption? The assumption is a thing, yeah. You're saying find something that brings you pleasure but not pain, that's exactly what you're saying.
Speaker 1:That's a very, very defined thing.
Speaker 4:So people are saying finding something that you can engage in that brings you pleasure but doesn't have the pain.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's very good. Yeah, that's exactly what we're saying. Yeah, that that's not correct is what we're saying. The thing that you're talking about it could be running smoking thing.
Speaker 2:No, we're talking about association and relationship yeah, it's not finding anything, because things are just things, what nothing okay, yeah, we're. We're just saying that, like, things are just things, there's nothing to find with any of them. It's just your association or your understanding.
Speaker 1:With those things With those things.
Speaker 2:There's nothing that you're.
Speaker 1:Have to find.
Speaker 2:It's not a matter of finding something that works and doesn't work, for example.
Speaker 4:Things just are and you're no there is things that work, things that work for you and they don't. No, you can find the thing where you have a good relationship with or a relationship or approach with smoking or drinking or eating?
Speaker 3:yeah, but, those things find it so those things don't have anything built in.
Speaker 4:I agree with that yeah, no, but the way that you're saying it, that they do have things built in no, but maybe the way I'm saying it, but the way I'm meaning, is that you are able to find something that you can have a good relationship with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, it's the power on you again. Yeah. It's the power, not on those things. Yeah, I know that. Okay, but the way you've been phrasing it is that you said find something.
Speaker 2:That means that you're looking for something that has these qualities in it, not that you have these qualities.
Speaker 1:It's a very different thing between finding a thing or empowering yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because if you can't empower yourself your self will follow those things yeah.
Speaker 2:If you don't understand how to do it. You could choose anything. Choose any pleasurable thing. You're going to become addicted. You're going to become. You're going to have a lack of control. Your self will always follow you in these things. You know You're going to have a lack of control. Yourself will always follow you in these things. So there's no thing out there that's going to inherently work for you, Because it only works how you want it to work or how you're able to engage with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. So we're clear on that yeah, yeah, we're all clear.
Speaker 4:I I was not properly phrasing myself yeah, no but it's because, also, I'm asking the question the way I'm understanding it and I also don't like I'm trying to formulate it. So it's not like I'm asking the question I already have an answer to.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to say it, but you said it several times, so it almost shows that you actually know what you're saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you're making like a, you keep going to the thing. No, but that's the approach.
Speaker 4:I don't know for sure. I have a hunch that, but I don't know how it works.
Speaker 1:That's why I'm asking the question, but why? The lean is on that versus the other, because to me, me in my head- it sounds proper, it's to find things that bring you pleasure. You see yeah, you see yeah to you in the moment feels that way, that's what you're leaning towards that way yeah, we're not.
Speaker 1:This is not what we're saying at all. Yeah, those things are irrelevant. That's why harris might be addicted to nicotine and you're not. You might be addicted to sex, but he's not. You know what I'm saying. He might be addicted to food, and, but he's not. You know what I'm saying. He might be addicted to food and we're not. You know what I'm saying. It's the relationship of those things. If those things inherently had something, we would be all affected equally.
Speaker 2:We would all either stay away or gravitate towards universally.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah, you don't have anxiety like he does. You don't have a food thing like he does, for example Right and vice versa you know, but you might have something else. You don't have the buzzing that you have. You know what I'm saying? It's the associations based on your experiences or whatever your history is and your PTSD's and shit like that. You know your stressors are so, yeah, it all comes down to not the things, but you, your engagement with them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, you'll never be able to find these things. You can only like Redefine them for yourself. Yeah, work on yourself, to have to work on the relationship you have with them, because all of these the same problems will appear in any of these things in the long term, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, appear in any of these things in the long term. Yeah for sure. Or vice versa. The same good things will appear in these good things. Like you know, the same good habits will carry over into those things.
Speaker 1:So, Harris, with everything that is being said, you're completely free to go back to your vape.
Speaker 3:I'm good, thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, tell him that too. Anytime you want to start again, you can.
Speaker 1:You see what happens, what's happening right now.
Speaker 3:I don't know. You're pressuring me. I'm fucking up.
Speaker 1:No, what I'm trying to say, that what we're trying to do or trying to highlight, is that If your mind starts to change and shift and become more clear about things that's going on, you will naturally remove certain things from your life that are not serving you in a good way. You will find ways to cope with stressors on the phone calls or whatever in your life.
Speaker 3:The proper way versus then do things that are detrimental, looking for something else.
Speaker 2:If there's something that's causing you stress and you can identify that, that to me is a very, very good thing, because then, if you're humble enough to use the resources around you, I almost guarantee you I'd almost say I could probably say that there's probably a 100% chance that someone here has a solution.
Speaker 1:I'm going to co-sign that. I'm going to tell you right now. I'm going to go even a step further. Not someone here, but if you are that way, someone in this world will figure it out and help you. Someone in this world, in this world, not even in this room. Fuck this room. If you come across the right way and ask the right questions and be humble, trust me, you will find the answers out there. We don't have nothing special, we just recognize. The special thing about us is that we recognize how this actually works.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so what do you got? You got 30. 40. Is that we recognize how this actually works? Yeah, so what do you got? You got 30. 40. Not 30. 40. Yeah, and 40?.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so think about 40, 40, and 30. That's 110 years of experience.
Speaker 3:Well, you guys are not 40 yet, no, but it's just easy math for you, bro.
Speaker 1:You're not going to be able to add 39, 38, and fucking 31.
Speaker 2:Plus fucking 31. What the fuck is that? Fuck you man, all right man.
Speaker 3:Oh, fuck you, I had a little bit to drink already.
Speaker 4:You always lean on that man.
Speaker 1:You always lean on that yo.
Speaker 2:You're a lightweight man. Yo, I'm not a lightweight Fucking one beer and you already have some energy.
Speaker 3:I was fucking playing a joke. Fucking playing a joke. Fuck you, fuck you, man. Sit and spin, motherfucker.
Speaker 2:That's disgusting. Yeah, so I was saying that if you have that kind of mindset and that kind of approach to things that, like, okay, x is causing you stress, right, and you're humble enough to go ask for help, like, how can that not be a great situation that you're able to identify a problem and know that there's people around you that could help help you solve it? Now the hardest part now, so that that that to me is like one challenge, right, it's like the first one, right, because again, below that is not knowing that you have issues, but having issues at the same time. All right. Um, now the next step comes. When you start hearing some solutions, you're probably off the bat. Um, the way that we are is that we don't. We often don't like those answers. Like, we don't like those. Um, you know, now comes your ego, or maybe your pride, right, whether you're able to combat that.
Speaker 2:And then you start implementing some of those things and then you start to see that, hey, that thing used to trust you. Hmm, doesn't trust you anymore.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is a good segue. What?
Speaker 3:do you mean segue?
Speaker 1:That's a good segue to the next question, because of the phenomena that he's trying to describe, it's a very important one, right? So the question is Can we trick the ego? What the fuck?
Speaker 4:Trick the ego to do what To learn?
Speaker 3:To be tricked. I thought you had to Kick the eagle out.
Speaker 4:How would that look?
Speaker 1:You tell me.
Speaker 3:I thought you had to Kick the eagle out of here.
Speaker 1:That motherfucker Is holding us back From learning, from experiencing what he's talking about Leveling up, being humble, experiencing the joy and stuff like that, right, I?
Speaker 3:thought the whole point of this was to get rid of the ego.
Speaker 1:It is, but I'm trying to say whether or not we can trick the ego to get rid of it.
Speaker 3:I thought we came to the conclusion you can't do that. You just had to get rid of it because we talked about this before.
Speaker 1:We didn't talk about tricking the ego before we didn't talk about tricking the eagle before.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure if there's a way to trick it, but I do think that there is. There's such a graceful moment of of surrendering in those things that, like I feel like this, like if bear with me with this, because it's a little bit funny, right. It's like like you know, like they have those like, uh, spoons or whatever that have holes in them, okay, right. And then there's obviously spoons that don't, don't, right, all right.
Speaker 2:Um, like like the pasta spoon thing yeah, yeah, I know, yeah, I pictured it and I feel like, when you have an ego, you're like trying to collect like a liquid, and you have this whole hole, and then what happens, I feel like, is that when you surrender in a particular way, those holes Patch up, patch up and now you can scoop up what you need to scoop up, scoop up.
Speaker 1:You didn't help me though you, though you didn't help me with the problem.
Speaker 2:But do I think that you can trick it?
Speaker 1:Well, for example, what we're talking about. Obviously, Harris is trying to learn, trying to do this, but there's a lot of ego and pride that's involved. That's maybe holding him back. He's asking for a shortcut, right?
Speaker 4:I don't know about the trick, but there is a way to expedite.
Speaker 1:I think, oh, that's what he was asking for. We discovered there wasn't a way to expedite. He said there's a way to expedite it.
Speaker 4:I think we spoke about this before. For me, the thing that comes to mind is the removal of stuff. Just don't do anything. Just come here and ask questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but again you're going back to the curiosity part. That's very, very hard, but that's very, very hard.
Speaker 4:That's hard to do, yeah, but if you don't have anything else to do, you don't have to worry about other stuff yeah. What are you going to do? It's very hard. You're asking for a trick for what Like if a solo person, without any humans around.
Speaker 1:No, I'm asking for a trick for an individual who doesn't know that the trick is being played on them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but see, elder, I feel like even at least sometimes, how I feel these are practical steps. What you're talking about At least sometimes, how I feel is that I like when someone surrenders and then they get the help. So I'm not even sure if a teacher can actually teach without the surrendering being present. I agree with you. I 100% agree with you, even if the person is tricked. I don't think that you can trick the teacher, because the teacher technically does every trick, right?
Speaker 1:yes, well, I think what I'm asking for is the teacher applying the trick to expedite the process.
Speaker 4:Well then, you would have to pretend to give the ego what the ego wants, but really be giving him carrots. That's right. Yeah, which is sounds that sounds stupid.
Speaker 3:You can't really do that because you can't really do that you can't really do that, because you just told me this shit.
Speaker 2:You can't give people broccoli and tell them it tastes like fucking steak man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have a couple examples.
Speaker 4:We gave the car away. How do you feel about tofu? I think that's what it is. You give the person. You think you're giving the guy A million bucks, but really you're giving him Sc a scraps. You're giving them priceless shit. That's actually gold. Yeah, all the way around. Yeah, you know, I think that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's for all of you in the rotator. I call it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, in that sense maybe. But also what you're suggesting? Is it line up with I guess you want to call it the laws of the universe? Is it just? Is it violating something that shouldn't be violated? I'm only asking that because of what?
Speaker 3:he posed. It's always what you say is the universe has a plan. What do you mean? I never say this shit. What the?
Speaker 4:fuck, where did you get?
Speaker 3:this from Did they use the cosign you in fake shit too, like this? No, no, no.
Speaker 4:Did they use the cosign you to say?
Speaker 3:things. You never said no, no, you always used to say it's already planned out.
Speaker 2:You know the destiny, maybe it's supposed to go this way.
Speaker 3:Maybe it's supposed to go this way. Listen back on the podcast. Maybe this is how it's supposed to go.
Speaker 1:Well, sure, I might have said that, but there has to be context behind it.
Speaker 4:Who am I to interrupt?
Speaker 3:Who am I to interrupt this fucking destiny? He needs to crash and burn. You know that type of stupid shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Can you stop chewing like a damn cow man? Oh, fuck you man.
Speaker 1:So you still have a problem with addiction. It seems like you're much better.
Speaker 3:With a topic. Yeah with a topic. Yeah, I just need to. You know I need to go in the woods. You know, figure shit out. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4:Yeah, go in the woods meditate for 20 years in the woods. Yeah, come back kill some deer.
Speaker 3:You know how it go, man get some. Get some skulls and some antlers what the fuck are you talking about? Skulls, dude? You just tap off the fucking head and stuff it. The fuck is wrong with you. What's?
Speaker 1:wrong with you, boy. So, guys, anything else about addiction, anything else we're trying to branch- out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like a lot of topics around addiction are how to prevent it, but it's like when you're asking how to prevent it, it's almost like you're asking how to prevent it. It's almost like you're skipping or like you're ruling out the fact that, like um, that like um, you could go way back and again change your perceptions or your understanding of things so that, like, you're not put in a position where you're having to, like, say yes or no to something, for example, because, like, like, an addiction is, like we're saying, it's almost like a reactive type of thing versus the proactive method is to actually learn, educate yourself, so that you know in all cases of your life.
Speaker 2:Slowly educate yourself so you get to a point where you know in many parts of your life what you're getting yourself into what this entails. Say, hey, look, we're about to gamble here. Right yeah, there's $200 on the line.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:What's going to happen if I lose this $200? Nothing Like, not really anything. If I win, nothing's going to happen either, yeah, you know, or if I win, stuff like that, and then maybe you can have fun with it. But, um, yeah, if it's like you're all end, all be all, everything that you're relying on, you know, yeah, everything. Then then, yeah, that that that's where you get into those like metal waters or those like um, addictive type of scenarios. Right, because, like, uh, for addiction to occur, I think again, like you're, while you're already addicted, you're doing something that's like negatively impacting you and you don't have the ability to to, uh, control it. Yeah, so you're already on like a spy, you're just like free-falling and you and you can't do anything about it right, it's being out of control how, um, how it is right.
Speaker 2:And then again to people that are not in that. They're, like you know, oftentimes like bro, just stop doing it. Or like in that they're, like you know, oftentimes like bro, just stop doing it. Or like you know this or that, it's not that serious, you know, like it's a vape, like you know like that, but yeah, but it's. I mean, I know that it's not that simple as just like stop, but yeah, I think, again, I think you're showing a little bit of empathy here, man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think sometimes we all need an intervention by Anatoly. Wow, berger Berger, I don't know how to pronounce it. A little French twist to it right.
Speaker 2:I don't know how to fucking pronounce it. No, you got it right, berger, that was good. Yeah, I think that, but I do think again, a lot of these things form or don't form with, like, how consistent your life is and what happens day to day and how do you like? The most important thing I feel like to me at least, in all this is how do you go about things that bring you pain? What happens to you? Do you have pain and you feel like you know exactly what to do? Is that what your response is? Or do you have pain and your first inclinations to start asking questions? Right, if, if, if you're operating on the first method, where you're like okay, I have pain, I know what I gotta do, it's probably gonna lead bad, it's probably gonna end bad for for you on that thing. But if you start to ask questions, not only can you stop the pain, but you can put yourself in a position where you don't have it ever again or that you like.
Speaker 2:You open up not only that, but you open up so many other things in your life, you know yeah but I think, unfortunately, like we're oftentimes like um taught or like, maybe like the way that we were raised or grew up, or like understood the reaction to pain is that we right away go into seeking pleasure, and it's something that we assume we know what to do, versus we seek for answers or understanding.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I get it, I get it yeah, like we don't.
Speaker 2:But again, to do that, I, I like it's very hard to do that if you don't have some kind of basis, right, yeah, like if you have a problem and you've never dealt with it in that kind of way, like that is so such a hard, foreign like thing to actually, like, um, do.
Speaker 2:So we almost have to then go back and redefine what a problem is or whether or not problem exists yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I, I think in reality, the way that maybe like, um, like, if you want to say, like um, god intended things, I don't think that he intended there to be problems. I think he just yeah, like, he, he, he, maybe, or he's like, whatever, it is right, um, uh, he, like made it. So it's like, um, he, he, he intended for humans to have consciousness and awareness, but not to confuse that as a problem. But people do confuse as a problem. But the recognition of a problem is a moment of what? It's, a moment of hyper-consciousness. Right, you're reaching an extremely high state. You have the feeling that there's a problem and you actually have that feeling Like that's such a high state.
Speaker 1:That's already a conclusion that the problem exists in the first place.
Speaker 2:But the ability to actually recognize that and feel that is a particular like level. I feel like you know, yeah, which is an illusion, yeah, it's a learned level, I feel like, yeah, which is an illusion.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but it's a learned thing though. To identify that thing as a problem. What do?
Speaker 2:you call people that have the same things happen to them but are not able to identify that as a problem. That, to me, is the scariest place to be on.
Speaker 4:No, but what if it's a kid right?
Speaker 4:it's a kid, he's playing, he's joined the fuck out of his life and his parents are like yo, you got to eat, are you going to be hungry? Right? Yeah, for him that's not a problem, right, but the parents are placing that problem on him. To him, he doesn't care about those things, he's enjoying it. He doesn't have any stress. He's enjoying the fuck out of himself, right? Yeah, so he doesn't have any stresses, but the stresses are placed from the outside. So he has a clean slate in that thing about like, oh, food, that's right now, it's not important yeah, right now it's important to have fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but like in in that, like I'm. I'm not talking about those scenarios because, like in those kind of scenarios, um, kids are like a like right, like a parent, and they're being oppressed where they don't have like a like, they're not aware of choice, or like they don't like like, like they're, they're kind of put in like a helpless, almost like a scenario that they're at the mercy of the parents, like yo, it's time to go inside. That's it. Like that's it. It's time to go inside. It doesn't matter how you care about it. You could be, I guess, like a, like a rebellious kid that's only after like a certain age, right. But when you're a tiny kid, you listen to your parents like you're, you're kind of like forced to be like at at their mercy I'm I'm just saying that like it.
Speaker 2:It's like like a crazy state to actually identify that you have a problem and be put in a position where you can actually ask questions or do something about it.
Speaker 1:Well, the crazy thing is to present the same problem, like Mike said, right To parents or kids or whoever, and one person is perceiving it as a problem and getting to that heightened state that we're talking about and the other person looks at it as a learned behavior?
Speaker 4:What are you talking about? The thing that we're discussing is that it's a learned behavior to look at things as a problem versus the reality.
Speaker 1:That's what I was saying. Why do you want to say that it's a learned behavior though?
Speaker 4:Based on what Tully's saying is that the parents are oppressing the kid into making a problem versus what he's actually experiencing.
Speaker 1:But that doesn't help. How does a problem originate in the first place, and what makes a problem a problem?
Speaker 4:Well, the parents saying that the kid needs to eat is yeah sure but that doesn't mean that's an actual problem.
Speaker 1:No, it's definitely not.
Speaker 4:You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's definitely not. Just because they said that you have to eat doesn't necessarily mean that the body and autonomy of that child, right now, in that moment, needs to eat.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, that's what I was saying. I was saying that the kid just wants to have fun, yeah, and the parent is the one who's oppressing. That was my statement.
Speaker 1:what I? That was my statement, yeah, yeah, but I'm saying like you're saying like it's a learned behavior, but like, what does that have to do?
Speaker 4:with that? Well, because the kid keeps getting oppressed, right, you know um with that, with the parents constantly telling him do this, do that, and then now the kid learned to always like, uh, with this kind of thing.
Speaker 1:He learned that this response, there's a stressor, the parent is a stressor he's yeah, but he did not actually learn that the actual not eating the food is a problem.
Speaker 2:He only learned that he has to respond a certain way to the way parents are responding to him yeah, no, I, I was more saying like, I was more agreeing that, like um viewing as something, as a problem, like that. That is a learned behavior, I guess.
Speaker 1:Why do you look like a disheveled Atlantic City hooker? Oh my goodness man.
Speaker 4:He does look like a crackhead today.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that addiction thing.
Speaker 2:Sorry, we do not want to see your chiwi weave come down. You want to see my chiwi weave? No, I was saying that perceiving things as a problem, um, sounds like a learned behavior rather than then like something happening and then seeing it for what it is, or maybe perceiving it as an opportunity for growth, for example, a learned behavior, a learned reaction what do you mean by behavior?
Speaker 2:It, like it is in your behavior, like based on your behavior or based on your perception of how you behave, like you could view something as a problem, but like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think I think we have to get into the dynamics of a problem in order to really yeah, like, I feel like when, when something, when someone calls something a problem, like when something is viewed as a part, as a problem, um, there's a pain associated with it. Yeah, and then there's also an um interruption of the flow give me, give me, give me an inherent problem right now.
Speaker 1:I don't think you can name me one, no.
Speaker 2:No, that doesn't exist. Okay, good, no, okay, it's a learned perception.
Speaker 1:Why do you have to put learned in it, like, like, what? It's almost you saying that it's been passed down.
Speaker 2:Well, like what is a perception? It's like a way of seeing something, right.
Speaker 4:The way you see something outside of the truth? I guess no.
Speaker 2:No, because your perception could align with the truth. Just the act of perceiving is the act of seeing something in a particular way Right, based on what you learn, is based on how you perceive things.
Speaker 1:So if you perceive something as a problem, that is a learning behavior, but that's not the only way we learn, though I don't think what, just from perception.
Speaker 2:Well, no.
Speaker 1:I think reason and logic are the big.
Speaker 2:So learning is our Perception, is our vehicle from learning. It's like our Perception is you first learn, then you perceive, you learn to perceive. No, no, no, you first learn, you have an act of learning and then you have, as a result, a perception.
Speaker 1:Okay, how do you learn to learn? So then you don't learn through perception. What? What you're saying is that you don't learn through perception, perception, no, okay, what? No, you don't learn from perception.
Speaker 2:Perception is an after effect of your learnings. So what does a learned behavior mean? So a learned behavior yeah well, it's a particular way that you behave that is a result of your learnings. If you were taught something, if you were taught something right, it is like if, uh, if you were taught that, like, for example, like um, if a kid says something mean to you at school, you were taught to punch them in the face, for example. Right, like that is your behavior that's a behavior that you were taught what is now?
Speaker 2:you know you behave like, like with so like behaving is the verb right, like you behave, and that's from learnings. Like you have learnings and then you behave right. Um, and then perception is with that what is like?
Speaker 4:what is considered a learned learning? What is considered learning?
Speaker 2:learning is like the acquiring of a five plus five is 20.
Speaker 4:You learned that from me. Okay, did you actually learn the truth, or you learned like, like, yeah, I don't know if there's a difference.
Speaker 3:I just want to point out I don't know if I came to you, right if I came to you and I said yo, five plus five, yeah, it's 20.
Speaker 4:You learned this from me. If I never knew it, yeah, if you never knew, you learned this from me. Yeah, but what if it's not the truth about the thing? So what is that? Still learned, of course. So is there a different, like uh, ways of learning 100? Yeah, so is there different levels to it as well? Well, like, of what of learning? Well, if, if I tell you five plus five is 20, but the truth is five plus five is actually 10, okay, you learned the wrong information I did yeah, and now I'm going to behave a particular way right from that information.
Speaker 2:Is there a right way to?
Speaker 4:learn which is in accordance with the truth.
Speaker 2:So versus a learning from somebody else like off a blind trust, let's call it yeah, yeah, but for example. But for example, learning the right or wrong way to learn if we want to.
Speaker 1:Well, what you did, I think sorry, your example at least was more like hey, memorize that when I say 5 plus 5, it equals 20.
Speaker 2:Okay, how about?
Speaker 1:Memorize this. So every time I say the word 5 and another 5, you have to tell me the word 20. Okay, you're doing a memorization here, right? What about the five? You have to tell me the word 20.
Speaker 4:okay, you're doing a memorization here. What about? What about? Um, but example, your dad's saying yo, like you were saying, if you're, if you somebody hits you in school, yeah, your response is to punch them in the face. You learn this. Right, that's a that. What if you learned that you know that behavior? What about the opposite behavior? You turn the other cheek, like what's the right way to respond?
Speaker 2:we're not talking about right, right, right or wrong. We're just talking about that, like learnings exist and behavior happens as a result of these learnings, and then a perception occurs, but is the?
Speaker 4:is the problem? Is that maybe? Is that the problem of the learning is incorrect? The kid learned to punch the person in the face, which is incorrect. But is that but problem with the learning is incorrect. The kid learned to punch the person in the face, which is the incorrect response.
Speaker 1:But that's the thing. Is it actual learning or is it just memorization? I gave you an example, that 5 plus 5, you said it's 20.
Speaker 4:So you're saying that.
Speaker 1:It's a memorization, right yeah, it's just like oh, 5 plus 20.
Speaker 4:What I'm trying to get, to is that the learning is improper and you're saying well, I'm not sure if learning took place. Yes, that's I think. So I think memorization took place. Yes, that's what you're saying, right? The person didn't actually learn like okay, yeah, what is logic with their own logic and reason? They never actually learn five plus five, or don't get or punch in the face, they're just repeating, or?
Speaker 2:yeah, they're just regurgitating. Yeah, but that's their like. If they react in that kind of way, that's a behavior that was taught to them.
Speaker 4:But all they're saying is I think all they're saying is that it's coming out of just a memory thing. Well, yeah, it's just a memorization.
Speaker 1:It actually hasn't been explained. If they said okay, dad, you said 5 plus 5 is 20. Why Explain to me, why Go Wait, wait, wait? How do you get to 5 plus 5 is 20?
Speaker 3:Explain to me that.
Speaker 1:You cannot right If we're talking about mathematics, straight mathematics it's been established.
Speaker 2:Yeah, see, and I have a way to prove out what you're saying is correct. Do you know it or not?
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know, I'm just trying to make a different point. You're going to agree 100%. Well, probably will.
Speaker 2:When you take a math test, right, a math test Okay, what do you always have to do? Show the work, show your work. Why? Because it has to make sense.
Speaker 4:No, to show that you know what you're doing. To show that you actually yeah, to make sense, to show that you've learned how to do something.
Speaker 2:Because what can you do? You can copy from the person next to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or you can guess.
Speaker 2:Right, you can guess or you can guess, but neither of those ways prove learning.
Speaker 4:Learning. Well, I think, yeah, is it the word learning? There's a learning which is actually learned and there's learning where it's something different.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, copying, not guessing.
Speaker 2:Elder is saying I think memorizing, but I think it's still mimicking. It's still in the family of. I don't know if it's in the family of learning, but it's in the family of. I don't know if it's in the family of learning, but it's in the family of teaching or being taught. You're being conditioned, bro.
Speaker 1:You're being brainwashed.
Speaker 2:Conditioned, sure, brainwashed. You were taught, you were taught to do things a particular way.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure if you can teach wrong. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, I think it might be a semantical thing. It's a very philosophical thing. I think you know what I mean. You know what I'm saying. How do you teach somebody 10 plus 10 equals 20? Explain to me.
Speaker 4:How Well you can't, because those are just words you know, so you cannot teach me when I said 10, I'm in actually five. Yeah, in my scale, you know. But your scale that's 20, yeah, you know so like explain that so you cannot.
Speaker 2:so, yeah, the the thing with things like that is that like there's a black and white um system that the world has agreed upon Addition, subtraction, multiplication division.
Speaker 4:But it's all man-made stuff.
Speaker 2:Or no, but it's logical. You can't disprove it.
Speaker 4:You can't disprove that 1 plus 1 is 2, but what the hell does 1 mean and what does 2 mean? Well, it means exactly what you would Show me a nature where 1 is actually one and two is actually two. I don't think one represents nature.
Speaker 1:No, it's an agreed upon system that you're choosing to participate in right. So why did you go outside of it to bring nature into it? You know what I'm saying. Like there's a system, it's a man-made system that is actually logical through language, yeah, through language, and and the word that we're using, one.
Speaker 2:That is just how you pronounce it and how it sounds, and we associate this sound with one, One apple one beer and we're able to prove how it is logically sound, and that's why the whole world agrees to participate in this method. When spies communicate or something like that, what they do, they speak in like a completely different language like five actually means 20, right?
Speaker 2:or like e is actually z, for example, right, they do it. Why? Because they don't want people to know what they're saying. So they speak in code, right, but that code means something like logical to them. To them, yeah, based on the agreed upon language that they're speaking in the rules. Right, it, it's, it's all. It is like like this logo we associate is like blue, but we don't actually know what. Like we're seeing in, like the eyes, right, like like that, like I, I could think that, like what you view as red to me is blue and what I view as blue to you is red, but we're calling something the same thing, for example, because we agreed upon that that right there, we can see with our eyes is blue and that's what we've agreed to call it. So, like we have a um, a compass to operate on. If you don't have that, then there, there's no common language. There's, there's, there's something that you't have, that then there's no common language. There's something that you can like speak about. That's why there's no word problem in Japan.
Speaker 1:Right, In Japanese language, there's no word problem.
Speaker 2:Right Only because they've agreed, or like that, to define yeah, those things don't exist.
Speaker 1:Right, and I think that if we talk about what it is that we're trying to say a problem we're gonna have a very difficult time explaining or pinning down what the word problem actually is identifying. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:okay, yeah, so yeah, yeah, yeah, no, so, so, yeah. So all I was trying to say before is that, whether it's memorized actions or whether it's like, um, if you want to argue and say that something can't be learned if it doesn't make like sense and like doesn't align with the truth, um, I, yeah, I mean, I could definitely agree with that but, I do feel that, like there are, there's like things that people do that they may not be able to explain, but they still do do that.
Speaker 2:They may not be able to explain, but they still do them, and those are like those, like behaviors, right? Is that like they behave a particular way because dad behaves that way. They behave that kind of way because a brother behaves that kind of way you understand this or no, right?
Speaker 1:This is the only reason why Harris exists in the first place.
Speaker 3:Oh, fuck you.
Speaker 1:You don't exist, what the fuck.
Speaker 4:It's just like what's it called? Those little, not those crosswords, but the little puzzles yeah, with the pieces. Yeah, and everybody contribute. What are those things called? I forgot you get them in a box with like 500 pieces what is that thing called? You know what I'm talking about, or no? Puzzle puzzles it's just a puzzle, right, yeah, where it's a whole bunch of little pieces, yeah, put together and then it makes up Harris. Yeah, because John decided to put that piece there. Your mom, your dad, your friends, crispy, what?
Speaker 1:it's called in human form or terms. It's called a poser.
Speaker 2:You're a bozo, yeah, bozo poser, feel, um, I don't know if it's true, but I also feel that, like part of like that the way that that life is and nature is and that the world is, is that um the together element of like humans being social creatures and that, like we coexist with others and that, like um living life completely isolated or alone is like something that like um, um people essentially can't like, like people can't survive in just being alone, or like they're proven to not be like able to thrive or be as happy um alone as I feel that I think that there's plenty of people that prove to survive alone no, they could.
Speaker 2:They could survive.
Speaker 2:But, like the way that the human humans I think are made up, is that we're meant to be social beings and I feel like part of that is being able to like um, for humans to exist right for, for like and like progress, for example, like to happen, or for any of us to, for example, improve.
Speaker 2:Is that, like we can come from whatever kind of way that we were raised, or that, like we were taught, or like forced to memorize, or something like that, and then, once you bring in another person and another person and another person into that like equation, right, those like things that maybe that don't make sense, or stuff like that, they're able to be brought out and I think they're able to be um, like um, challenging, like a way where it's like if you just existed in your own bubble and you never did that, you won't ever, ever be able to be challenged, or it's very difficult to be like um, brought outside of the existence that you know, because you don't have another, another thinking being out there, that you're interacting with the balance off of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that can challenge you in a particular way, and I think it was meant to again that people are supposed to to come together and they're supposed to, um, align on the universal truth and they're supposed to, like, bounce off each other in those kinds of ways because it doesn't matter what behaviors we all have here. Once we bring them out, there's like a clear like uh, there, there's feelings about them. And then there's like reactions to them, right like like if harris just took a shit on the floor right here.
Speaker 4:That would be perfectly fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that'd be fine, but me and Mike would be like yo, what is he doing, for example, that kind of extreme way, or if someone's really arrogant or rude but then someone else isn't, they're able to, that kind of thing that restores a level of balance and it helps a level of progression between humans out there where, because of humans' ability to be social, that they're able to kind of get this kind of growth and they're able to kind of progress and have the opportunity to be in those kinds of ways, because, um, like the way was that that it was created, is that there is a shared, a shared reality and in the shared reality, um, because it's shared, I I think that it gives you, like people, the opportunity to change and to align for good, you know, for for the truth.
Speaker 1:Get to the Harris, let's go. Let's do the final thoughts On addiction.
Speaker 2:If you just want to chew your gum for the next 10 seconds and not say anything. I'm completely fine with that. Everyone shut up.
Speaker 1:What are your final thoughts?
Speaker 2:Okay, nate, also I don't know if you remember, but he did these like weird, like little things. Like once he saw everybody was like pissed off, like he was, like he would just do that thing. Yeah, yeah, like can you explain something something would be like super annoying, I told you, and he would see that everyone finds it annoying, yeah, and he would just have this like I told you a hundred times.
Speaker 3:I told you a hundred times, didn't? I tell you already a hundred times? He needs to do it. He's in the hudson. It was really me that called you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know good, you're reincarnated, okay final thoughts I got a thousand. Are you're changing your name to Nate?
Speaker 3:sorry, that was an outburst what happened to a thousand Muhammad? What what you got? You need to work on yourself. That's what I got. You need to ask questions. You need to seek help from others. You know you need to seek help from others. You know you need to change your mindset.
Speaker 2:Who out there actually believes that it's as easy as asking questions and not actually having answers? Very true, it's always going to be a battle. Having answers is perceived as the hardest part. It's always going to be a battle, if I just told you hey, elder, going forward, just focus on asking questions about things. Right, I don't need you to figure anything out, just start asking questions. It sounds easy, right?
Speaker 1:Should we pay?
Speaker 3:people to start asking questions. It's always going to be a battle. Oh my God.
Speaker 2:Okay, now, that might be a way to trick. Yes, fuck you, that could be a way to trick.
Speaker 4:There you go, fuck you.
Speaker 2:That could be a way to trick.
Speaker 3:It's always going to be a battle. Put a price on it.
Speaker 2:That could be a way to trick.
Speaker 1:It's always going to be a battle. You said you wanted to make more money. Right, you wanted to drive Lyft. You said, right, you wanted to drive lift. Fuck you. Well, guess what pussy fuck. You. Ask the right questions, win the right prizes money.
Speaker 2:It's always gonna be a battle, yeah you have to dang yeah like you have to dangle something evil with something good at the same time yeah what do you mean?
Speaker 1:evil something?
Speaker 2:that they desire like money, yeah, yeah, like you know what I'm saying, though. Yeah, yeah. What do you mean? Evil, something that they desire Like money, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like you know what I'm saying, though, yeah, I sell my soul to the devil for some change in the way of the news.
Speaker 2:Holy shit, you don't have to know anything, you just have to ask questions. What?
Speaker 3:the fuck you ever heard of the crossroads. We're going to play this trick on him.
Speaker 1:Without even knowing. He doesn't even say what's happening. You ever heard of Mike? You cut him off right what he's cut off from alcohol yeah, what do you mean?
Speaker 4:no more, I'm not drunk. What's your final?
Speaker 3:thoughts on addiction. My final thoughts on addiction is it takes some work. Okay, you gotta dig deep. What did you learn about?
Speaker 1:addiction today. Dig deep. You're fucking saying nothing right now. Hold on one second, fuck this. You know what I'm going to beat. Totally to it. What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard, at no point?
Speaker 3:were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought? Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to you. Fuck yeah, it's in the mind. You have the strong and the weak. That's what I come down to, man.
Speaker 2:I might have to do like an email campaign to clients with that clip in there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but fuck you, all right. But yeah, we discovered it is in the mind. Okay, that's what we discovered. Okay, it's in the mind. Okay, that's what we discovered. Okay, it's in the mind and you have to figure it out. You have to change it. That's the way it works.
Speaker 1:Okay, thank you, harris, for saying absolutely nothing. Fuck you, man, just fuck you. All right, Mike, what you got for us with this addiction thing?
Speaker 4:I don't have anything.
Speaker 2:All right for us with this addiction thing. I don't have anything Alright, totally On addiction in particular.
Speaker 1:Why did you have something else On?
Speaker 2:something else.
Speaker 3:No, just it smells like Pamela Go.
Speaker 2:Final words on addiction.
Speaker 3:He said a lot man.
Speaker 2:Are you lost? Yeah, yeah, I feel like in order to help. I guess, when it comes to um topics around addiction, people are always trying to figure out ways of how to stop it right and and and maybe, if you're already in an addiction, maybe that is the first step before you can go back and, like, have a different perception or something, because, like, you got to get out of it so that you have the opportunity then, right, yeah, um. So I feel like, if you're in it, it's a very tough place because you're not going to be like in a position to listen or be rational. But, yeah, it's a very tough thing because it almost requires some kind of external intervention to give you an opportunity and then it's probably up to you to take advantage of it.
Speaker 2:That is great, because the person who's in the addiction probably is again like they're in this perpetual cycle that they can't break. So I do feel that some kind of external intervention is required to do anything. I don't know much what else. It's hard to give advice. How do you give it? What kind of advice?
Speaker 1:I got you if you want. Yeah, all this thing about addiction I think that we started off with, and everybody that maybe perceives the word addiction in the first place. I think they perceive it as this boogeyman, it's bad, it's like oh shit, addiction, oh shit, this, it's so terrible. No, I think it's. You know, based on what we talked about, it has a perfect explanation as to why it comes about, why it serves a very specific purpose and why it's almost necessary. Why is it almost necessary in this world? So I think that if you're looking at it more in a sober quote, unquote pun intended, on the sober way when it comes to addictions, I think you come to find out that you can, like we just said to Harris, right, we just said hey, harris, you just stopped this vape stuff. Right, it's been five days, go back to it. He's been like addiction, addiction, it hurts so much. Oh, my God, I can't take it Right. And we're like okay, cool, go back to it. Well, why is person reluctant, right, right, why?
Speaker 1:I'm trying to make the point where, like, why is the person reluctant to say like I want to go back to this thing? Because did he learn some new stuff to cope with life and stressors. If he did, addiction is no longer going to be the thing that's going to serve him. That's just natural phenomenon, right? So if you have addictions in your life, well, this is the way you cope with life, this is the way these are your outlets and these are the things that maybe bring you a little bit of pleasure in order for you to sustain this life. Yeah, that causes you all this pain, but if not.
Speaker 1:You find a different way. You go on to new things, better things, yeah, greater things, and whatever. So I don't think we have to. I think we almost have to redefine that addiction is not a this boogeyman that everybody looks at it as they always say, my thought was about, about what you're saying.
Speaker 4:Um it go. I think it goes to show, and I guess a lot of people who are in addiction don't see this, or maybe they do. I'm just, you know, I'm thinking. It's moment to moment, just like everything else in life, right right now, in this moment he's thinking, he's reasoning, he's paying attention, he that addiction is not the it's not going to serve a purpose in this moment, irrelevant, you know. So a couple hours later, have a few drinks.
Speaker 1:Him and crispy start making love whoa crispy says I don't have lube in the car, that's a problem and I think that's uh that's like um in a way this ain't no diddlers over here, bro.
Speaker 3:Whoa fucking diddy. Maybe quite over there shine some light on the addiction that it's also not.
Speaker 4:It's not like you wake up and you're addicted and you're constantly craving that addiction yeah, you got all the all the time throughout the day. That's right you got all this shit going on, you got, you got. You want to eat, you want to chill, just take a shit. You want to take a shit. You want to drink some coffee. You're not thinking about smoking a cigarette, fucking 24, 7 every single moment, no no, and I think that also goes to show like I think there's something there about the addiction where it's.
Speaker 4:It's not non-stop. It's like exactly you're filling it your time with that thing.
Speaker 2:But but, but I think for that. Yeah, but like if you're addicted to some heavy drug, for example, and you're never in a position where you're out of it, or like yourself like that, like you're in just like a, like a, like a zombie land.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I don't have experience with those kind of people who are completely addicted, but I still think that those individuals have pockets of time, they have pockets of freedom. I think so too. Well, you can kind of navigate that and be able to stretch out that moment if you deal with alcoholics, for example.
Speaker 4:Right what? What would alcoholics do when they start they get drunk? They start fucking talking about emotional stuff. They actually start talking about shit that they're meaning to them. Maybe it's coming from a drunk place for whatever reason, but nonetheless it's coming.
Speaker 4:It's coming, yep so they can rationalize that something's wrong. They're not happy and a lot of times they say, yeah, man, I want to quit drinking. Man, I'm fucking miserable. They see the clarity. Yeah, it's maybe when they're drunk, but what you think they forget about when they sober up. For the moment maybe a little bit, but now, but no not fully. Yeah, that might be the reason they start drinking again.
Speaker 2:So I get what they just realized like oh damn, I'm fucked, I don't know how to deal with it yeah, I just feel that, like, if you do something enough, like on that really bad physical scale, I do think that it could, like you know, like it burns your brain cells and then, like you, just don't have the ability to like, think or reason what about TK.
Speaker 4:He burned his brain cells.
Speaker 2:But he comes here and sometimes says something well I'm talking about like a, like a continuous thing, where you're just like a, like a junkie, you know like yeah well, no, sure, sure, and I think that, yeah, that's where probably, uh, you know, a physical detox probably is required for a week or two or whatever, right?
Speaker 1:but then what are you trying to do? Right, you're trying to bring the mind back into the place, to be able to rationalize and make proper decisions to get out of it, you know, at the end of the day, so sure, sure, but detox does exist and people do it yeah. You know, yeah, but if it's that, if it's that, if the case of addiction is that, severe.
Speaker 4:It's definitely harder, but the most, but even the alcoholic that we dealt with right.
Speaker 1:We had a friend who passed away. You know what I mean, fortunately or unfortunately, but we were able to detox him right Without any kind of medical, fucking professional help. Where he fucking stood, knew exactly what to take, knew to calm down and he was completely sober and fucking that sober period, was able to prolong it, and in that sober period you gotta hone the fucking moment and if you don't right. You don't right if you don't fucking do what's right for you and learn then the prolonged suffering is going to continue.
Speaker 1:You're going to go back to what you had to go, and that's what happened to him. You've seen it, yeah, with your own eyes.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know and also, I guess a lot of people live with addiction. Maybe not, not the majority of people are like these drug addicts or whatever alcoholics or addicts who are. Their whole life is completely ruined. I think it's. My guess is smaller numbers than the people who just like are functioning. You know, addicts like they go to work they have jobs like 100%. They're not completely zombie.
Speaker 1:24-7 no, 100%. And even our friend, who was completely zombie, had a job bro.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he had a job and he would have two weeks when he would be finished, and then a month or whatever two weeks he would be functioning and doing his job and like he was a helpful hand, even right, he was hanging out with us playing basketball and, yeah, and was helping out like yeah, so you know there's definitely more extreme cases, but I don't know hey man. Alright, guys. Well, this was a good one, harris, thank you so much for bringing this up stop twisting.
Speaker 3:Stop twisting dick, man.
Speaker 1:It's weird why are you paying attention to one thing that you're not supposed?
Speaker 3:to be paying attention to You're sick, fuck man. Why are you so nervous bro? Oh for shit.
Speaker 1:I have no attachment to it, man, you can have it. Whoa, whoa, whoa. All right, guys, thank you, it's great, whoa whoa. Thanks for watching.