Dennis Rox

138. Growing Beyond Ego and Pride. Is there a better method than Eldarism?

• Eldar, Mike, Toliy • Episode 138

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Ever found yourself at a crossroads, unsure of which path to take and how it might shape your future? Join us as we unravel the intricate tapestry of life's pivotal moments in "Reflecting on Key Life Decisions." We'll explore how individual choices ripple through time, influencing not just our futures but our personal growth narratives. Through stories of young individuals grappling with life-altering decisions and adults reflecting on missed opportunities, we underscore the significance of seizing the present moment while appreciating the journey our past choices have charted.

Navigating the tumultuous waters of pride and ego in personal growth can be daunting. In "Navigating Pride and Life Lessons," we dig into how these barriers can hinder progress and the delicate art of offering guidance to those not yet ready to embrace change. Can humility be taught, or must it be experienced? We tackle this question head-on, offering insights into the dynamics of influence and the importance of being open to receiving help. Introducing the Eldarism method, we discuss personalized approaches to self-realization and the necessity of patience and empathy in facilitating growth.

From teaching humility and social confidence to confronting anxiety and fear, our discussions are packed with strategies to help you on your journey of self-discovery. "Teaching Patience in Self-Growth" emphasizes the patience required not just to learn but to teach others effectively. We wrap up with reflections on the essence of integrating belief into daily life and how genuine understanding and personal ownership of knowledge foster profound transformation. Whether you're grappling with internal doubts or seeking to empower others, this episode is your guide to unlocking your potential and living a more fulfilling life.

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Eldar:

On this week's episode. My thing always, at least my advice is always to try to empower the individual and give them the torch that they have the power over this. You know what I mean their lives versus something that's outside.

Toliy:

Pillars of like, truth and success are the same.

Mike:

The pillars of truth and success are the same. Yeah, okay, yeah, but I mean the truth is the same, but you are not the same. The human element is the kicker here.

Eldar:

If you're not living your virtuous life, how are you going to reap the benefits of one? I said this, you said this. Holy fuck, I don't even remember that Types of quotes that you can come up with. They're really profound.

Toliy:

I got one for you to figure this out.

Toliy:

Okay, like I just have like a scenario, you know okay and all right, so describe the scenario okay, so the scenario got birthed from, probably something that I would say most people who are listening have experienced, you know because, it's just like a natural thing, like if, um, if you have grown in some place, right, um, and and like, uh, you've improved, you can reflect on it afterwards, right, and you can, like, think about what happened and, like you know, usually, like the uh, the easy comparison is when you're younger, you may have done, like, some stupid things or had some good opportunities, but you kind of didn't take advantage of them, right. And then you get older and you start thinking about that and you're like, oh man, like I got offered such a good opportunity, but I was a dumb ass at that point, right, yeah. So we were just talking about like, um, the magnitude of, of, like decisions at, of decisions at key moments in people's lives, and people get particular opportunities that could be life-changing, right, or they could completely change the direction of where you're going or what you're doing or what you're learning. But, um, that person, that moment, does not understand the magnitude of their decisions. One way or like another, right, whether it's like, uh.

Toliy:

Let's just say, like, uh, a young, a young teen getting recruited into a gang, right, he may think it's cool or something. Or or like, right, like different things, or get a little bit of cash. They give them Right, but in that moment they're not understanding the magnitude of their decision to potentially join a gang and then get involved in like killing and like drugs and all kinds of violence, for example. Right, that's like one example, um, but if like, uh, like that right, or um, like if you get a potential like offer at a job, right and you get a particular position, but you're not at a particular point in your life where you can like almost like, accept it right, or like or like um, don't take it seriously enough, let's just say right, that could be another one.

Eldar:

So how would you structure a question around it, though? Like no, you're not getting that, like what's bothering you about the process? That kind of happens.

Toliy:

Well, I mean, it's not nothing. Um, like, what's what's bothering you about the process, that that kind of happens? Well, well, I mean, it's not nothing. I mean I I mean, when we were talking about that I wasn't getting bothered about the process, but I was more trying to figure out whether you can let someone know about the uh the importance of the moment.

Eldar:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that I think there's a recurring theme, at least with totally, when it comes to like the way things supposed to be, or the like the flow of things, the flow of life, or like you know, something's already built in and supposed to play out the way it's supposed to play out, he has a tough time accepting that there's a mechanism that is in place and he's like, oh man, like I wish I knew, I wish this. It's kind of like that, regretting right Behaviors, decisions, choices and stuff like that. Right Like you, almost like you, almost applying what you're doing is really is just taking the lens that he has today, right, his current lens and applying it to the younger self right, and like, oh, if I knew what I knew today, I'm trying to, I guess maybe at times, figure out.

Toliy:

Is that like okay, like I went through a particular process and it got me where it got me? You know some things like really good, some things you know not so good, you know, I would, I would say mostly good things. So good, um, you know, I, I would, I would say mostly good things. And um, it's always interesting when you're put in a position where you're either like helping somebody or like you're, I mean, you're constantly going to be surrounded by, uh, other people, right, because you're not like in isolation. So to me it's always fascinating when, like the like, like the word, like uh, skipping the process. Yeah, that doesn't sit well with me either, because, no, I, I, I don't believe in that, but I'm always wondering is that like hey, is there a way to communicate with on someone who doesn't see what's going on? And, um, like, put them in a position where they could potentially make a decision?

Eldar:

Or skip certain steps.

Toliy:

Well, no, not like skip, Skip is about. I know you're not trying to skip I know, is it possible to, if you've been there and you've done that, communicate with somebody who has not been there and done that?

Eldar:

I can only say this what I think is, each individual carries a certain level of arrogance, pride, ego, right. So I think that each individual will have their own little thresholds. If one person is more arrogant than the other, I think he has to learn very specific lessons versus the other person who's not as arrogant or egotistic, prideful, right. So and I don't think you can skip those things Right, if you can come across a person who's like not as arrogant, right, more humble, then they can skip certain lessons, or you can fast track them, because they don't have to learn that, because they're already naturally respectful and humble. You know what I mean?

Mike:

uh, but overall, I think that the lessons are the lessons well, yeah, the thing is the question, yeah, like, um, where does the learning happen? By going through that experience of, let's just say well, suffering, right going through the pain of that lesson or what, imagining it, or hearing from somebody else yeah, totally like.

Eldar:

How do you like, if you have pride in you right, how do you listen to someone and say, you know what, I'm just gonna get rid of pride without having to go through life's lessons, right, and say you know what, what, I'm just going to get rid of pride without having to go through life's lessons, right, and say, you know what, you know, I'm just going to skip this part of my life, like, I'm not sure if that's possible, because the pride is like it's almost injected into who you are as a person and because you already committed, you already jump into the pool of pride. This is you.

Mike:

Now You're part of that pool.

Eldar:

You can't act out of a different place now. You just can't. You just can't. The decision making everything is based on your pride. Well, based on yeah, based on who you are in that moment. Right, and the reason why you have pride or this negative thing or whatever, right, so you cannot skip certain lessons. It's just, it's impossible but, but.

Toliy:

But.

Toliy:

But let me ask you, this is the correct.

Toliy:

Is the correct method, I guess, of teaching is like I, I look at it like um, potentially two, or I mean maybe, maybe it's more, but like I'm thinking about two, two different ways. Right, let's say someone's pride, like prideful, right, but they're also trying to get something out of the relationship or out of this um situation. Right is like the right thing to do, like hey, like let their pride play out right and like you know, like let them rock and like choose where they're at and like um, what they're doing. Right, or is it? Or is it like let, let's say, come like um, meet that pride with a very dominant, like a strong stance, where you just try to like completely annihilate it, which could potentially like like hurt the relationship, like at at the moment, like a completely right, and then test them if they're like resilient enough and have thick enough skin to be humble enough to like lay down, but then potentially, um, like stick with it. Or is that just like a like, not like a doable recurring formula?

Eldar:

I think it depends on how much influence that individual has, or how much interaction you have with that individual, how much he's like, woven into your life. You know what I'm saying. Like, is it who? Is it a guy at the deli that's selling you bagels, or is it your sister? Or is it your mom? Or is it an employee, a co-worker, or is it your girlfriend?

Toliy:

You know what I'm saying Well, let's say it's a scenario where someone is like they're asking you for help, in like a way, right, like this is what they're here for. Like they're here for help.

Mike:

That's like a, that's like a hard like a blanket. I think help when the person who asks for help do they really know what the help that's required, what it's going to take. They just ask for help is there in like a no, but that doesn't matter, like in this scenario, I think it does the person who's asking for help, doesn't have the idea of what will be required for him to get the situation that he's been helped, yeah, but they're not supposed to. Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying, yeah.

Eldar:

Plus the impression that the other individual actually needs that specific thing.

Toliy:

They usually ask for help for very specific things because those are specific things Like, for example, let's say Mike is asking for help and he wants to, let's say, learn something or achieve something Right and for help and he wants to, like let's say, learn something or, uh, achieve something right and let's say he was very prideful or something or like he had a big ego, right, and you're just like, and like. That person viewed you competent in that. Okay, right, and you're just like okay, mike, you're gonna listen to me you're just gonna say you're gonna listen to what I have to say.

Toliy:

You're just going to say you're going to listen to what I have to say. You're going to do it.

Mike:

Do as I say.

Toliy:

Okay, right. I don't want to hear any rebuttals. I don't want to hear any complaining, right? If this is what you want, this is what you do, then this is how it's going to be.

Mike:

Are you all right with that.

Toliy:

If the person says no, it's dead, or if the person says yes, then this is exactly what happens. Do you think these are like impossible scenarios?

Eldar:

No, I don't think so. If you can define them very clearly for both individuals and both people on the same page, I think they'd be accomplished Okay.

Toliy:

Okay so I guess with that said like Okay so I guess with.

Eldar:

That said, why do you choose to not lay it out in that kind of way, which I guess is viewed a bit more like a rest of, I guess, right? Well, I guess we can play it out. If the person comes to you and says this is what I want you under the impression that this is exactly what you should be helping for. Like this, you're supposed to be providing this type of help, or do you in the back of your mind know that, like I can't help you with this because I have to help you with something else?

Toliy:

the prerequisite well, yeah, no, I'm talking about that. Like, for example, let's say yeah, yeah, no, I'm not talking about scenarios where someone's like hey, like oh, for me to succeed in this, I just need you to teach me this. This is just exactly what I want to know I'm. I'm talking about like someone's like hey, like uh, uh. Let's just say like they want. They say hey, I want to learn how to have good relationships with people. Yeah, that's a crazy ask, you know. No, no, like, this is what their desire is right. Yeah, and that is like a large like right, there's just like a lot of different things that Well, no, it depends on who's teaching.

Toliy:

No, I'm saying more. Is that like there's a lot of different ways that that has influence, like that's not just one thing one time, once a week it touches everything.

Toliy:

Yeah, it touches everything, right, yeah so, if this is what their thing is, they're not saying like, hey, aldar, like I need you to help me have a better relationship with my cousin's fiancee, right, like that's a very specific like thing, and you might be like, whoa, there's actually a lot of things stopping you, like you know, like well, no and even no, no, okay, got it.

Eldar:

I understand what you yeah.

Toliy:

So like I'm not talking about the specific help thing where they're like hey, I need help digging this one hole. Yeah, you know, when you know that, like the whole architecture is fucked up. No, I'm talking about like someone's, like yo, I want to learn how to do the whole architecture yeah, but my question would still have to be like why?

Eldar:

My question is why? Why do you want this?

Mike:

Is it possible for, let's say, you who's a teacher, to know the full scope of services and to give the proper help?

Eldar:

No, but you can have right. If the person comes to me with this type of vague question, say, hey, I need help with relationships in general. The first thing to me with this type of vague question, yeah, say, hey, I need help with relationships in general. The first thing to me is to like, okay, cool, like to come to something, this kind of conclusion on, like, realize that you have something. There's a problem. I have to have a little bit of knowledge of the subject matter. I might not have everything, but I might have some basic stuff to like, okay, this person clearly doesn't have this, especially if I'm being appointed. Yeah, that means the person is clearly seeing something like oh, okay, this person might have it right, yeah, but with this type of general thing, I have to ask like, what's going on? Because, uh, to me at least, in relationships, right?

Eldar:

Uh, a lot of the relationships that we have is also are the, the foundations behind relationships are is us seeing things for what they are and seeing the truth in the world the way it's supposed to be. So our relationships is almost a byproduct of our understanding of who we are. Number one is us and how we fit into this world. Okay, and then come the relationships. First it comes to us how do I see myself? And then how do I see myself bouncing off of other people? So again, it's a even. How do I see myself? And then how do I see myself bouncing off of other people?

Eldar:

So again, even though you're saying it's a general question of a lot of things, it's not. To me it's like wait, there's a bigger fish to fry here. You clearly don't know yourself. If you're looking to have better relationships with others, it sounds to me like you want a better relationship with yourself first. Right, because you already are struggling with the desire of wanting something externally. Why is that? You know what I'm saying. My thing always, at least my advice, is always to try to empower the individual and give them the torch that they have the power over this. You know what I mean? Their lives versus something that's that's outside, you know?

Toliy:

so that's how I see that yeah, like my, what to call it. The point I'm trying to make is that like, yes, I completely agree that the person who's asking for help doesn't actually know, like you know, what they need help with potentially, or like what that process looks like or what the commitment is or how much effort it's going to take or how long it's going to take, but none like the, nonetheless they're, they're asking for it, right?

Toliy:

so I'm saying that like what, if you, each time this happened, you laid out those kinds of I guess, well, let's go look again In modern times, I would think that most people would consider this a very aggressive method, because you're basically saying my way, or the highway.

Eldar:

Yeah, it's like Zen Buddhism. You know what I mean. Like yo, shut your mouth, be quiet. I'll tell you what to do and just like, just do it.

Toliy:

If you don't like it kick rocks.

Eldar:

Okay, got it. The thing is, I, at least my method, eldorism method is to evaluate the individual's desire for what it is that they want. Right. And if I have a sense that, okay, cool, they're not ready for this yet, like you're not ready for relationships, for example. Right, if I sense that. But you have this desire, I'm going to try to go on a journey with you to try to help you so you can realize that is not the thing that you need in the us.

Eldar:

Many times with you, mike I don't know if you noticed this, right you come to me and you're like hey, I want this. We start working on stuff and next thing, you know, you don't come to me about that thing at all because you've come to realize that we have a bigger fish to fry. And then you put that on a backdrop and then when I come to you, I'm like oh, no, no, no, no. I'm not even thinking about that right now because I have something else that's on my forefront. You know what I mean.

Eldar:

What happened was you came first, you were under the impression that you were failing at this. We talked about it, we start fixing, try to fix some stuff, and you realize we have a much bigger problem somewhere else. Of course you know what I mean, and this happens all the time, and this is the usual journey that I go on to then get to a place where you are like wait, that's not even a problem, I've worked on the problem. I don't even have to ask that question anymore. It's not about relationships anymore. It becomes a natural, organic thing where you know you have self-respect for yourself.

Toliy:

For example, yeah, but I'm saying that if you, as a teacher, like you, identify that ahead of time, I'm saying that like um, do you think that you have to go on that like journey for them to then realize that? Or what, if you just say that, like we're not going on this journey, um, that this is what you want, in order for that to happen, we first have to do this, like what, what do you think?

Eldar:

I value it based on the attachment the person has towards that specific thing.

Toliy:

No, but I'm saying that like Sometimes I challenge it. Sometimes I don't no, but like if their attachment is high, I'm saying why don't you take a my way or the highway approach?

Eldar:

Because I feel like it's forced, then I have to do a lot of work.

Mike:

It sounds like more of a discipline-oriented thing where you just push through.

Toliy:

It's a lot of work, no, but why is it a lot of work?

Eldar:

Because then I have to teach, versus the person that learns through experience in life.

Toliy:

No, what I'm saying is that they come to you for like relationships, but then there's like 10 different things beforehand that you view are important to first go over and learn before they actually like you actually start or or start going over what they originally came to you for, okay, right, and you then you say, hey, in order for um, me to help you, uh, with relationships, for example, there's um, there's several steps before that that we need to review and review, discuss and get better at Right, like, if that, if this is what you view is most important like what, if you just stood there and not willing to budge from that step Unless like, and if they said, no, like I don't want to do that, they're like alright, that I'm not helping you, why I don't do that, yeah, like like, what would happen then if you did that or no?

Eldar:

what would happen, I think, is that what you just said. If they said, if you said no to them, that's it, and just relationships kind of over, yeah, that's it. Yeah, but if they say yeah, then they have to be kind of obedient, but then they have to play everything out by the to the t almost sounds like, almost like you know, you have to be very, very good and to the point and strict and rigid to whatever the teacher tells them to do well, well, well, not like they're not going to be perfect, I feel like with everything.

Toliy:

But I'm saying is that, like they're, they're going to be on your, on your plan, and you know the plan much better than the person um at that time is, or like where that person is.

Eldar:

So are you 100 sure about the plan?

Toliy:

um, I don't think you have to be like sure about like that's a big problem then well, I like now if I have a hundred percent plan, like a hundred percent plan, that is foolproof I'll probably take this advice much easier no, no, what I'm saying is that, like there, like there's certain things that align with in, in, in the course of, like the truth, um on, on these kinds of uh topics, right, so if you're advising those kinds of things, those things are like necessary things in any kind of plan, like they're, they're fundamental, like uh, pillars of success, if you want to call them that, right, like they're going to apply.

Toliy:

But different people's journeys, of course, are going to be different. Some people might, well, yeah, one pillar might be extremely difficult for them to understand and learn and grasp, yeah, while another pillar is very easy, right, yeah. And then for another person it might be the opposite, right, yeah, and then for another person it might be the opposite, right, yeah. But the pillars are the pillars and, like, the fundamentals are going to stay, um, the same as to like, like it. It's not a scenario where, like person to person, different things are, are important, where it's like, oh, like for this person, like, uh, he doesn't need honesty, or like he doesn't't need respect, he's fine with something else. No, it's like these same things are important in everyone's life, in every single scenario, in every single type of desire.

Eldar:

And that means you're really good at what you do. If you actually can identify those things and apply them or at least pass them on, then you're very good. I just think it's very good. I just think it's very difficult to do.

Mike:

Yeah, you would have to have like an intricate, complete bird's eye view of that person for the whole thing, and you have to be with him 24 7 in a sense too, because well, no, he says it's okay to fail kind of certain things you'll hit.

Eldar:

Yeah.

Mike:

As you go, like I mean look you're only going to also the student, the person who's who's?

Eldar:

so then why? Why make the I'm sorry? So then why make the claim of, hey, my way, or the highway, because your way will still not be your way?

Toliy:

well, the failures would, yeah, no, but like you're like, like, for example, the the um like are you?

Toliy:

failing them at the first fail. No, no, no. The way I'm visualizing this is this Most people, when they ask for help on something, I think this from my observations they're either asking for help with a specific thing where they need help with 200 other things beforehand, but they're not asking for that because they're under the impression that this is for sure what they need help with, like 200 other things beforehand, but they're not asking for that because they're under the impression that this is for sure what they need help with, which we see countless times. Or they want to help with something and like a thing. They might come and say like hey, I want to learn how to fall in love. No, no, no, don't use that.

Eldar:

I want to learn how to fall in love right, or like I'd like to fall in love, no, no, no, Don't use that. I want to learn how to nail this nail into a fucking wooden board?

Toliy:

No, like that. That's more of a specific thing I'm talking about.

Eldar:

Yeah, you made a broad one and now you're making a specific one, but falling in love is also not before now.

Toliy:

I'm trying to make a general one where they're like hey, I want to learn how to have good relationships with. I thought you made my family, okay.

Eldar:

Okay, I thought that was broad. Yeah, I thought that was broad relationships. When you said relationships, yeah, that is broad yeah, I'm saying that.

Toliy:

No, what? When I'm talking now, I was saying that most people either come with a specific thing where they're like hey, I want to get a better relationship with my dad, and they ask for help on that, but there's 200 steps before that, 200 things or 500 things that they have to do before that and you already know this ahead of time, right, okay, um, or they come to you with like a broad thing where they're like I want to learn how to have better relationships. I want to succeed yeah, like I want to be successful, for example. Or I want to succeed yeah, like I want to be successful, for example. Or I want to have better relationships with the people around you family and friends yeah, right, but you know, but, like, when it comes to that, there's a lot of different steps In that and a lot of different questioning on that. Right, I think there's a lot of sorts of both sides.

Toliy:

Yeah, so I I still still think that it's going to be an intricate and long process and they're going to potentially fail on different things but you're going to be going in the order that you dictate off the bat.

Eldar:

Okay, so then okay, so, then okay. So the next question is then, so why? What's the benefits of this approach?

Mike:

And why haven't you done it?

Eldar:

And why are you gravitating towards it? Yeah, why are you gravitating? I'm not gravitating towards it. Well, I almost feel like it's promotion.

Toliy:

No, I mean, I'm asking. I'm asking a question here, fine, fine. Well, I think that like.

Eldar:

You're trying to save time. Hmm, what are you trying to do? What's the benefit of this?

Mike:

Well, I think, I guess. Well, don't give it away.

Toliy:

I understand in the approach you have, for example, of going on the journey with the person Right, but like it's a journey that like, let's say, you as a teacher, you already understand, ok yeah, you don't need to go on this journey, right.

Mike:

Yeah. Well, why not? Yeah, why not? Just because you understand, does that mean, you can't learn something new? I mean, the journey is fantastic.

Eldar:

Why wouldn't you want to go on the journey? I don't understand, because I like going on this journey.

Toliy:

Yeah, maybe. Then I don't understand why you like the journey so much.

Eldar:

I mean it's incredible, I think, to go out there to have a wrong impression or have a wrong hypothesis. Go out there and test the hypothesis, come back and say, yo, this didn't work. I'd like to test this out. And we keep building on that hypothesis, changing it up, changing the different variables, manipulating them to get to the truth. And then when you find the truth together, you find like, oh, it clicks, you know, we're on the same page.

Toliy:

I mean, that's a great journey. No, 100%. What I'm saying is that, like before going on the journey, like you already have the truth, okay Right, just the other person either doesn't see it, or doesn't believe you, or doesn't like understand it.

Eldar:

So you're asking for blind trust, and we already discussed that yeah that's being offensive to the other individual. Hey, just trust me, bro, you're dumb. Just like trust me, just do this right here, mindlessly, without understanding any type of reason behind it, you know and trust me I told you the right thing. No, that's ridiculous. I don't want an individual, I don't want fucking servants to serve me. You know what I'm saying? Like that's crazy. Like okay just do this, do that, do that, Like don't question.

Mike:

So then do you think that if it was to go through this process, the person wouldn't actually learn anything? He would just be repeating Well, yeah, well, that's what I think it's like, the fishing versus fisher.

Eldar:

Yeah, fisherman situation you teach a person how to fish versus you give them a fish. Yeah.

Mike:

No, I mean not like you think that's how it would be, mm-hmm, that's how it would play out, right? Yeah, because the person would he this?

Toliy:

might you would say yo, this is my thing.

Mike:

Yeah, don't question me type of shit like, yeah, just do it. Yeah, well, well, no, so so let me like revise it. I think that they can question you, for example, but you'd be pissed if they did.

Toliy:

No, no, they can question you and you can have those interactions. Just it's going to go on the steps that you, as a teacher, feel are best to start with. What do you mean?

Eldar:

but the student doesn't, doesn't dictate. In my approach, the student doesn't dictate where they're going.

Toliy:

They're still asking and I'm still, I'm still choosing where we're going no, but you'll go on the journey that the student is attached to. Going is what I'm saying. You're not going to be like yeah, but but that's the thing.

Eldar:

Sure, no, I'll choose whether or not this is the most important thing. If that that's the lowest hanging fruit, then sure I'll let him hit his head against the wall. What's wrong with that?

Toliy:

No, I'm just trying to figure out, I'm trying to understand the whole process here and I'm basically trying to play devil's advocate to my own argument here. Yeah, Okay, yeah, but if it's, not time.

Eldar:

So what is it that you're trying to? Like? Get on Right, because I can argue time. Like I think that I haven't found a better approach, you know what I'm saying. Like to liberate people from their attachments and desires that are causing them suffering. Like I haven't learned anything, you know? Like anything that's faster? I'd like to know because I'd like to speed up the process. That would be my one of my like attachments if I was to say how do I do it? And this I feel like life in general, and playing those things out is the fastest way. You know what I mean. Gracefully, like I said, I'm not talking about like going and doing something crazy and reckless. No, like within the parameters of making sure you don't get hurt, physically hurt or something like that. You know, mentally hurt for a very long time. No, you're gonna experience some mental pain, so, so how? You're gonna have a heartbreak. You?

Mike:

know what I mean, she's gonna cheat on you.

Eldar:

If you're gonna be a dumbass, right yeah, but you'll get over it so wait, wait.

Toliy:

So then, how do you separate that versus like let's? Let's say, you found something that works right, um, and and, and you know they're like yo, these these steps are repeatable and they work. Versus like like saying like yo, this is what we're gonna do, these are the steps, and then you do it, and it's a repeatable process. Um versus like, letting the person be like no, actually I think that I have other things like that might be better or more effective and then, like you, let them go on on that journey.

Eldar:

So you just want to voice the fact that it's a process. What do you mean? What are you asking me right now? I don't understand. What do you want to say about the process? I don't get it. You want me to just mandate the process.

Toliy:

Like I'm saying okay, if you know something works or something is important, is there a way for the person to not go on the journey To find that out? Yeah, to find that out, but more be receptive to listening to you off the bat.

Eldar:

Only through crazy humility. That's such the bat. Only through crazy humility, that's like such an ask. Only through crazy humility.

Mike:

Yeah, who's Like what you're asking for it's hard to explain, like it's You're asking the person to not believe in something or because they don't understand it, but just to believe in it. It's like, in a way, like the things that you're saying is Elder has very good reasons why he believes in certain things. What I'm hearing is like you're saying, like how do you teach that person to believe in something? But like blindly, like you don't just believe in shit, something, just because you actually have your reasons why you understand it.

Eldar:

Yeah, I try not to believe in fucking superstitions. You know what I'm saying.

Mike:

Yeah, like, don't what's it called. Don't cross the cat. Yeah, you know. Yeah, I think yeah, like, how do you blindly believe in something?

Toliy:

Like, for example, if you think Eldar is like competent in something, right, but you have, and like you're asking for help on that subject, but you have your own different attachments in mind, right? Um, like why? Why do you think it's so difficult to have like an unrelenting effort to listen and to learn to like what, what he has to say, like about that, or like what, like, like, if you think like you don't know how exactly, like you don't exactly understand how, but you have a feeling that he has everything right, like, like, like that.

Toliy:

It's very simple. He has this right.

Mike:

Right, yeah, I think that's simple, okay, well, because in the moment you can see, the person has, let's say, success, true success in that sphere, right, but elder is elder and I'm me. Okay, he has. He doesn't have the same problems that I have. Um, so for him, like for me, the journey is going to be completely different.

Toliy:

You know, much more difficult potentially for that specific thing, because we're we're unique individuals, yes, but the pillars of like, truth and success are are the, but the pillars of truth and success are the same.

Mike:

The pillars of truth and success are the same. Yeah, okay, I mean, the truth is the same, but you are not the same. The human element is the kicker here.

Eldar:

Let's bring a real example into the thing We've identified for Mike, who sometimes, most of the time, is afraid to approach girls and you know, talk to them or whatever. We've identified the low hanging fruit. I couldn't find anything more lower right.

Eldar:

Which was, you know, if you wanted to. He came to me and said yo, I want to break this fear. I want to break the fear of approaching girls, talking to them or whatever, which he's okay with doing after the fact right, you're okay with talking to them after it's already been whatever opened up, but the original approach he's been having a hard time with. So we've identified, we've talked so much. You know what I mean. There were so many recommendations, so many recommendations, and the last recommendation is to you know, is to go very slow and just not even open up a conversation, but just give a compliment. You know, because a lot of times you hang out whatever, you see girls that are pretty or whatever, you can't just say, hey, I really like that dress or that looks really nice on you, like something very simple. You know, oh, you know, but it's very hard and difficult for him to do. Right, what is the reason for that? To me it's like, bro, are you kidding me? Like what's wrong with you? Like you want me to do it? I can do it easy, I know, of course you know what I'm saying. I have no problem doing that right now, you know, but you don't have the same oomph. You don't have the same thing on the subject matter. What can we do? How do we bridge the gap between this situation? Right, yeah, what's happening is that he has a lot of things still inside of him that maybe wasn't shared with me, maybe it wasn't uncovered for himself Insecurities, fears, whatever it is, you know, ptsd, traumas and stuff like that that I'm not privy of. I don't have those things holding me back. I don't have fears or whatever. You know, whatever those things are that might be holding you back. Therefore, I can openly just if I see a pretty girl, I can say, hey, you look nice and I think I don't do this. You know what I mean. Like I don't have a reason to do it, but I can if I wanted to. You know what I mean. I have it in me. You know what I'm saying, no problem, you know what I'm saying. I'm not scared.

Eldar:

Um, so what I'm saying is that I don't have those same things that are holding me back. Therefore, I think that, before we go on the journey of discovering what those things are, bringing those out and finally getting his self-esteem to a point where he feels the same way, asking him to do that it's almost like a punishment or premature. You know what I mean. Like, yeah, mike, just go do it. Go do it, don't say a word, I don't want to hear it. You know what I mean. Don't say a word, I don't want to hear it. You know what I mean. Like I'm not. I still not sure. Even if he does it, he'll get what I think he should be getting, based on what I'm saying or recommending.

Eldar:

Yeah, okay, he might be saying it and getting I broke my fear. Thank God, I'm relieved. I'm saying, bro, you have to be able to feel the connection between you. Just made someone's day. You feel good about it. You know what I mean and you should definitely not feel scared from it. You know what I mean. Like it shouldn't be a relief kind of thing. Yeah, but you might be just getting the relief because you caught on a completely different thing, you know. Yeah, does that explain it a little bit?

Toliy:

Yeah, yeah.

Eldar:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what I'm saying is that we have to sometimes discover those things by going on certain journeys to really see why the individual is fucking glitching. It's anxiety. I'm not in your head. You call me like yo, I got anxiety. I'm like, bro, do this. You're like wait, what? How do I do that? Bro? You don't believe me, you can't. Yeah, that's the thing you don't believe the person you have very specific things to be you and why you believe this anxiety to be true.

Mike:

Right In the moment when you come to the person for help, you have that glimpse. I mean, obviously you know that person is competent and for a moment you believe that person, but then, when your real life kicks in, it's different. That trust. Like y'all that knows this, I don't exist. It's just a window, bro.

Toliy:

But, for example, if you have another person that's willing to go on the journey for you, for example, that is competent, Can you schedule me dates all day?

Mike:

You're like?

Toliy:

yeah, I got a friend. Yeah, like, can you like?

Mike:

Yo can you bring a beer, elder yeah.

Toliy:

Thank you. It seems like like in the moment, you don't agree with the person right, or your ego doesn't agree with the person right, but In the moment of what Can you see like? In the moment. Like, can you see? Like, like in the moment, like, if Elder is saying that and then for you it's very hard, like or you don't do it. You clearly disagree with that like. Is it a disagreement?

Toliy:

or is it a fear, or is I don't know what the difference would be like I feel like there's both like probably a disagreement, because if you agreed with it, you would do it, right? Yeah, there's like, hey, you should stretch before you work out. Oh, yeah, sure, and you agree with that, then you're going to stretch. But if it was like, yo, you should, before we start this workout, we're going to punch the wall 20 times. You would disagree with that probably. Yeah, right, now right, and you would not do that.

Mike:

Well, for the example of the girls, how do you know? Do you know if it's ego or if it's fear?

Toliy:

well, I think that's what it is. I feel like, like, like the uh like, like they're probably closely tied uh together, but there's definitely like a disagreement here no, I I think there's a disagreement, but the cause of the disagreement is it ego, is it fear, what like, like? It is. You don't think there's a difference? Well, like I don't know if there's one without like the other necessarily.

Toliy:

Okay, you don't know if there's a fear without ego, or fear without disagreement, that like ego, and fear to me are like. There are some like ties there. They're cousins.

Eldar:

They're cousins.

Mike:

Yeah, so, aldo, you think that me not approaching the girls and giving a?

Eldar:

compliment. Is that coming from ego or from fear? It's probably coming from first fear, because it's the closest thing, but that fear is probably attached to some kind of ego, maybe somewhere down the line.

Toliy:

Well, he disagrees with that. It might be that. I'm not sure I told him that not sure If you guys are working out and you told him, hey, we're going to stretch before we work out, he's going to agree to it.

Eldar:

He's like okay, yeah.

Toliy:

But if you were like hey, mike, when we work out on Monday, I want you to punch the wall 20 times beforehand until your knuckles bleed and then we'll start to work out. He disagrees with that, he's not going to do it. Yeah, right, so same thing here. If, like what you told him, uh, would be something that he agreed with, then he would do it.

Mike:

But right now he disagrees with a hundred percent he has reasons why he has reasons, and one of the reasons could be fear no, I I mean, it's definitely a disagreement, but yeah, but the cause of the disagreement is what I'm asking. Is it fear or ego, uh, which doesn't matter in the thing we were talking about, but what does it matter?

Eldar:

it's still holding you away from doing something that you want to do right for sure you want to succeed.

Mike:

But the way he's saying like oh, you disagree with the person. He's saying that I disagree with you yeah, you do yeah, you do but? But is it coming like arrogantly that I disagree with you? Or is it becoming from fear? What?

Eldar:

is the difference. You're being a bad student, like, if you're a bad student, if you're not listening to what I'm telling you, I don't care where the reason's coming from. Okay, ultimately you know what I'm saying. You're not doing the thing, but I actually do care. You know what I'm saying, but you're like using, like oh, but if it's fear, then it's different. It's better than if I was like egotistical or something or prideful. You know what I mean so why are you putting a label on that like as, like that?

Eldar:

I thought it was different, like you're still being the best. You're still not accomplishing for sure, I'm definitely not. I agree. So we're not getting there. I'm still still upset. I'm still upset, like what the fuck? You keep coming to me like yo, help me out with this. Let's do this. Yeah, this is a good idea, bro. Yeah, I agree with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I should be doing this. Hey, have you done it? No, what the fuck are you doing? I'm still upset, scared or not? We've already agreed upon those things together. You know what I'm saying?

Mike:

Yeah, I'm not sure if it matters. Yeah, no, for the end result, definitely I don't think it matters, but I was just wasn't sure, totally saying that fear and ego is the same thing.

Eldar:

I don't. I wasn't sure about that. The interesting question is that I think more than anything is that can any of the negative emotions right Fear or pride or any other thing that we have actually is an indication as to why we can't get through you know what I mean and actually experience joy, success, happiness and all this other stuff Confidence and those types of actions, happiness and all this other stuff? You know, confidence and those types of actions, right? Are we so riddled in those things and constantly are playing this loop in our head that this is who we are as individuals that we can't break through? That's the problem. Are you just walking around as a loser all the time, feeling like a loser and therefore you don't feel like your dick ain't big about this kind of shit?

Toliy:

when I'm telling you'm telling you, you have the gift of gab, no but see this, I think then ties to what I was saying before If you don't believe in yourself and you don't visualize it, it's very difficult to learn something from somebody else.

Eldar:

Yeah sure, but the problem is right. The individual right. The individual has the skill right, has the ability to be witty, funny, you know quick, clever and all this other stuff, but when it comes to this specific subject, can't do it. So then there's a very specific attachment that we're going against. Because everywhere else we're okay, because if we bring girls in right now they're our friends. We introduce them to it. Bro, this guy is going to have the biggest dick in this room, yes or no? You don't know this, you don't believe this. This guy will go crazy, bro, crazy. He's going to go nuts. He's going to be fucking bouncing off the walls. Like in what sense? In the sense that he's gonna be funny. He's gonna be mingling.

Eldar:

If it was what, if me and you introduce some nice hot friends to him, like yo. This is Mike, this cool guy. Whatever, in a little bit you'll see, this guy's gonna fucking take over the room. He's gonna be running circles around these women. Guaranteed, bro, versus, if, what Versus, if he had to go out there and fish for himself.

Toliy:

So he's just more of an inbound rep. He's not trying to do outbound sales.

Eldar:

No, exactly In this specific field. No.

Toliy:

I view it like not this example now, but I'm saying that like what, what? What you were saying before I viewed as I like. It's like when people get into sales and they talk to somebody important and then they can't say anything. They can't say anything Right, because they're a VP somewhere.

Eldar:

They're like this and that. But if it's talking to a rep, like and that I'm telling you right now is a tie, most likely is a tie to ego, because you've identified the world. Yeah, you became maybe a people pleaser of this world and now you have to upkeep this thing, which you don't really believe that you have you know what I'm saying, and you're not really deserving of any good man. Yeah, yeah, nothing's lining up, see, in that example.

Toliy:

I don't view it ever as that like you have to go learn how to do this with somebody else. To me it's like once you solve it internally, then the conversation with these kinds of people is then seamless.

Eldar:

That's right you know, yeah, but you underestimate that there's a lot of things that are tied to this the internal solving is not like a.

Toliy:

Yeah, it's not independent either, and like what do you mean?

Eldar:

Well, it's you saying that you can go and just do this independently inside of yourself and like, finally resolve it. It's not this specific thing. If it's holding you back from being successful, it is tied to so many things that are external and internal that you need to bring everything in.

Mike:

Those deeply rooted belief systems. Yeah, about yourself, about the world. Well, yeah, sure.

Toliy:

But what I'm saying is that, like, I don't think that this is like a like talking to girls issue, this is like a Mike talking to Mike issue. Agreed.

Mike:

Deeply rooted issue. It's not the other person 100%.

Eldar:

This is why, to me, it's such a minute thing and that this individual has that thing that can do it, but he can't for himself. I know he can do it. He doesn't know he can do it and that can't for himself. I know he can do it, he doesn't know he can do it. And that's the crazy part.

Toliy:

What? What does that mean, though? That you know that they, they could do it, but they have the gift of.

Mike:

God, the sick, no, the sickest part is that I know I could do it Like I know. I know I could do it, I know I've done it, it yeah, but in the moment I can't do it, which is that's even sicker, because obviously I know like I've talked to girls.

Eldar:

I've seen you do it.

Mike:

You know what I'm saying in front of girls too, yeah, so I know you can have fun yeah, but it's sick the fact that, yeah, yeah, there's some kind of like crazy glitch for the initiation, for the initiation, yeah, yeah, and then, after it's on, it's on, yeah, but it's such a crazy thing, yeah, you know very specific, like when, when people say, like the word, like, uh, the way at least I'm, I'm viewing this thing that that that we're talking about.

Toliy:

It's almost like if the initiation is, um, the hard part, right. It almost seems that like if he meets somebody new, he's not sure what rules we're playing under. Okay, yeah, that to me seems like sure. Then the issue yeah, why is that? But then, once you get comfortable, you know that you can implement your rules Correct.

Eldar:

But why?

Toliy:

Why can't you? Well, because he doesn't believe that his rules are the correct ones.

Eldar:

There you go, that's self-esteem, where I'm saying that we are the ones who are the creator of these rules and the implementing of these rules. We're the implementators, and then we're all the guards of these rules as well. That's how I feel. Bro, again, I like my shit, right, I know my shit. I know my shit right, I know my shit, I know my shit, and nobody can tell me shit. This is it. That's the rules of engagement. Yeah, that's how it is, that's how it's supposed to be. But, yeah, but, if the individual doesn't really believe that, then there's something else. There's some kind of an attachment that's holding them back, and attachments, a lot of times, is rooted in a very specific ego.

Toliy:

Yeah, then they may have an inclination that the other rules ought to apply, ought to apply and they have to play by those.

Eldar:

But why? Right, but why? And if you really find out? I mean to a reasonable human mind like yo, that's ridiculous.

Mike:

Yeah.

Eldar:

That's why we're at this stage now. We've fucking broke it down to an atom. What else do you want to do? Like send fucking Henry in notes blind Henry in notes to people? You know like what are you going to do. You know, like you said you want to. Yeah, like you know, like you want to break your fear and interaction. What's smaller than giving a compliment?

Toliy:

What would be worse, Mike Asking?

Eldar:

you directions? No, hey, do you know how to get there Asking a pretty girl for directions? No, no, no. What's smaller?

Toliy:

What would be worse, Mike? If you were on an online dating site and the first interaction would be a dick pic or giving a compliment to a girl in real life, I don't know. What do you think would be worse?

Eldar:

That's stupid, Mike would. Asking for directions would be easier.

Toliy:

No, it would be the sickest thing if it was in the, if it was like in a closed area, like in the building, oh yeah, like at the gym, like hey, do you know where the back? Bathroom is yeah, yeah, no, no, like hey, do you know where the back, uh, the back machine is, the the leg raise machine is yeah, yeah right yeah, wait, what do you? What do you think about?

Mike:

that. No, I think I'm better to say be like hey, I'm actually going to what's it called the garden state after this. You know how to get there, yeah.

Toliy:

Like what's lower than that right? No, but like asking for directions in the building that you're at.

Mike:

That you're at. Yeah, that's like regular shit though, bro, no, but at the gym.

Toliy:

That's not a crazy thing, right.

Eldar:

To ask somebody to wear a machine.

Mike:

She's going to say yo I know how to get there.

Eldar:

Yeah, that's going to only work in a new gym.

Toliy:

Yeah but then you could then start making a joke that like hey, I was trying to figure out how to give you compliments. I figured that it might be easier for you just to guide me.

Eldar:

The low-hanging fruit was this that's a funny scenario.

Toliy:

Yeah sure you could do it like that. The person at the gym most often is asking others for directions of where the things are.

Eldar:

Yeah, yeah. So what I'm saying is that we strip the shit to almost an atom, right the scenarios and like saying, okay, cool, like what can we do? That's good, that's going to make people happy, make you you know, break your fear and play the numbers game you know, without needing to open up a conversation asking a person for a number, what they do, who they are asking them for a date you know, because that's a more difficult outbound call, you know?

Eldar:

Yeah, right, but a compliment like are you kidding me? You know what I'm saying? Like then something about you internally doesn't agree with it.

Toliy:

Well, they agree. Like what you're asking for, I feel like no, like his being doesn't agree with it.

Eldar:

His reasonable mind who's here right now, of course agrees with it, Of course.

Toliy:

Of course, of course, no, but I feel like, because we all tuned in to the same fucking thing, no, but I feel like you asking him to do that it's like a I think it's viewed upon probably internally for him more as like this is like a weird, corny thing to do that no one does.

Eldar:

Oh, it's a very good question.

Toliy:

Is that it yes, no.

Mike:

I don't feel like that.

Eldar:

Well, you see, then you're saying again the student is like a prideful prick and is looking upon the teachers like yo, that's corny.

Mike:

No, I don't feel like that's a corny thing.

Toliy:

No, but like you never see people do that really, and like I feel like when someone tells you like hey, go give someone a compliment, that's just like a like, I think at least that you disagree. That like that is like.

Mike:

like you disagree, that like, that is like like, like you feel like that, like that is a weird thing to to, to do, at least I, I think. Well, I can only give my testimony. I don't think it's weird, I don't feel like a weird way about it, I just feel like, uh, in the moment I get scared to do it, not because I'm not, I'm not, but how can you get scared to do something that you agree with?

Eldar:

That's a good question, because the reasonable mind, and the drunk mind is two different things. Come on, how can you ask that question, especially because you're an expert in anxiety?

Toliy:

You know what I mean. Don't the same rules apply, man? Yeah, but then you? But then the reality is that you just fully don't agree with it.

Eldar:

You know, like, right, Like yeah, but but then it just only proves that we have almost like a personality disorder. Yeah, that right now you're thinking you're like okay, cool, everybody's safe, everybody's good. You Now you're thinking you're like, okay, cool, everybody's safe, everybody's good.

Toliy:

You know in an hour if something happens somebody doesn't pick up the phone Everybody's dead, all right, but wait, hold on. This is what I was asking about before. I feel like these moments that you're talking about they're not completely individual states for that person, that that person is relying on themselves and using their own power only.

Toliy:

I think that might be what the issue is okay, you have to explain that, though, more okay, like if we're talking about something right now, right like we have three, three individuals here and we have three sources of like, if you want, want to call it power, right yeah.

Eldar:

Like logic, yeah, we're bouncing off of.

Toliy:

And when we're talking about it. If, for example, two people like, if I'm talking about anxiety and you guys don't have this, you have two very strong sources of power, yeah, and then I have my own source of power, but it's not as strong, but then I have a large one of, like you know, let's say, the opposite of power. If you want to say, like I don't know, negativity or something, or fear, if we want to call it Right, and then it comes, and then, in the moment when we have this, your power is able to lower my fear enough so that the power that I have is able to shine through over it. Sure, the reason, the reason, right, so like that. That's what I would call those scenarios. But when you're not in that kind of scenario and you're almost like alone with your, your power versus your fear, like a ratio you can't leverage, or you can't like lean on, on, on, on on that in that kind of way, which is to me like that's the explanation for why that happens no, that's not an explanation why that happens.

Toliy:

That's an explanation as what happens yeah, yeah, what are you talking about? What happened?

Eldar:

sure, yeah you're just saying what happens, you're stating the obvious yes, yes, fine yeah, so the question is to why does that happen? Well, why aren't you taking this trio thing? That's supposed to make sense to you and take it into the world when you buy yourself and have it as your trio thing constantly, permanently well, because you're, you're, you're, you're.

Toliy:

On that subject, your negative power still outweighs the positive power.

Eldar:

Yeah, but that's the kind of explanation, is that bro?

Mike:

Yeah, but your negative power? The thing is, regardless of your power, the power is still drawing its. I mean, the negativity is drawing its power from somewhere. So it's either knowledge or lack of knowledge, right? It's not just like the power doesn drawing its power from somewhere. So it's either knowledge or lack of knowledge, right? It's not just like the power doesn't just show up itself.

Toliy:

There's a belief system behind it. Yeah, like it's your existing scenario. But when you're with others who are powerful, for example in that subject right, you're able to lean on their power to cancel out your bads that your good can shine out. Absolutely Right, yeah, but yeah, when you're alone, it's a whole different scenario, yeah.

Eldar:

You don't have that power to lean on which is why it's like what, why not, why not? Why can you be almost swayed? And why are you being swayed here by our minds? Are you just being swayed because it's a collective consciousness here?

Toliy:

well, or is it because, like, because more people are?

Eldar:

talking about it. Well, well, like it's. Oh, does it actually make sense? If it makes sense right now, why the fuck wouldn't it make sense tomorrow, when you're alone? Why? Because I don't know. I'd like to find out.

Toliy:

The actual process of like. There's two different things between understanding maybe something in a particular given moment versus like the versus leaving the moment and then being like a nut. It's almost like when we talk about like a like a nut. Yeah, it's, it's. It's.

Toliy:

It's almost like like when we talk about like um, conscious and and like unconscious Subconscious or yeah, yeah, right, like the uh, the conscious selves right now are able to like logic and reason through like pretty much any subject, and like like anything is really like, uh, doesn't sound like a very difficult thing to do, right? Yep? Or understand, yeah, but in order for that to be felt on an individual level, I think it needs to get through to the subconscious, and that's the one that operates on its own more. Why?

Eldar:

Why.

Toliy:

Why, I don't know. I think that might just be the makeup of a non-focused human being. Fine.

Eldar:

I'm glad you said that as a non-focused one.

Toliy:

Yeah, you know, you just didn't say like a human being, yeah, okay sure, non-focused human being. Yeah, because, like the, to be conscious in these kinds of moments, um in in like everyday life is extremely difficult. I feel like um like when you're participating in my in in modern day society and then learning from like existing, like habits that you'll already have right If you were like in, like a monastery, and you're learning particular things.

Eldar:

It's easy to meditate in a quiet room, right yeah?

Toliy:

Yeah, but yeah in a loud, buzzing area.

Eldar:

Go meditate in Times Square.

Toliy:

Yeah, in a loud, buzzing, buzzing area without soothing music, right Perfect rainwater drop the level of focus that you need to be that kind of person. I think it's proven to be very hard, which is why we do things over and over again and learn things over and over again, up until it just gets fucking laser etched into our subconscious so that it can operate without the requirement of that focus.

Eldar:

What's that pretty said? So you didn't say anything to back up your point.

Toliy:

Like the original thing I was saying yeah, no, I was just more like. You're having a hard time letting go of that theory, that or that approach no, no, I no, no, I don't have a hard time getting a go, I'm just trying to like, um, like I, I, I, ultimately I. I do actually agree with what you're saying, but there's certain things that I don't understand fully. Yeah, when comes to it, yeah, and I want to challenge the fuck out of it so that I can bury all those things.

Eldar:

To tell you one thing. If you can take my word for it which we probably won't is that the process that I have. I actually enjoy it. And I'm going to tell you one thing right now that's a scale that you're trying to go off of against. You're trying to enjoy the process. If you didn't, you wouldn't be having the situation in the first place. You wouldn't be having any type of questions, you'd just be, doing it. You're not satisfied with what you're applying. Therefore, you want to learn. I'm telling you that mine's enjoyable.

Toliy:

Yeah, yeah, I always viewed you that mine's enjoyable. Yeah, yeah, see, like I always viewed it that like, like, um, like like, but it's long.

Eldar:

Sometimes you know like it takes time. But I mean good things do take time and I like to savor the shit. You know what I mean too.

Toliy:

Yeah, yeah, no to me more. It's just like like To me more. It's just like like there, there's been many moments over the last like, let's say, like 10, 15 years, where, like, um, you knew something and I had to like learn it, and then I got to a point where like, oh, now I understand what you were saying but then, like, when that moment comes, the first thing is just just like damn.

Toliy:

Like like, first off it's like, well, you knew this this whole time, like you know. It's like well, you do this this whole time, like you know. It's like that realization happens. What the fuck like? Why couldn't I hear this like from the beginning, you know that happens. And then it's like and then, and then, like a bunch of things happen along the way. But then I think a completely, completely different element to it, that, even if you learn, that thing that you can't understand is that if you're then put in a position where you're being asked for help the same way that you were asking for help from someone else, right, someone else right, um, the understanding of of like, um, like how that process goes, and having that like you can you don't by default have that same level of of patience.

Eldar:

That's not how it works, you don't you can't apply the compassion to the same level of patience towards the other person yeah, that's what you're saying, you don't by default have.

Toliy:

have that.

Toliy:

That's one thing.

Toliy:

The second thing is that I think almost like a natural feeling that maybe we all have in different things. When we discover something, we want to share it, when we discover something that works, and then you're speaking to another individual where you've been there, you've done that, like you understand this, like you could almost feel like a momentary, like frustration with, like yo, like we've been there, we've done, like we've done this, like you kind of just have to like been there, we done, we like like we done this, like you kind of just have to like listen, but you can't ignore, like um as other saying, like you can't just ignore the person's process and like their attachments and where they're at and their understanding, and you can't just like well, their ability to listen yeah, or their ability to like listen, yeah, you know, but the process of like passing somebody, that something, down to somebody else, that that is like a, uh, a life changing, like pillar or concept, is extremely difficult because, like, as we discussed last week, the communication element of it, um, it is very difficult.

Toliy:

And then the understanding to like, like, like, for example, like, if I'm in this scenario now, right, for me oftentimes it's very difficult to know like, hey, like, what move do we do next? How do we act? Like, like now, how do we act if this happens? What do we do if that happens? Right when, like Eldar, he doesn't have to like, think about that, like he already knows like, when to when, when to throw on the hammer, when to be compassionate, when to do this.

Mike:

You think he went there by accident.

Toliy:

Well, no, no, Like he's been there, and and like, like, uh, um, like like he's been there and, in a way, you're waiting for others to catch up to you, almost right, and when you do.

Eldar:

I'm extremely ecstatic by that.

Toliy:

But what I'm saying is that this is where you've been at for a long time now.

Eldar:

Well, in certain things, yeah sure.

Mike:

Yeah, but I don't think he's frustrated about not being able to be where he is.

Eldar:

I understand how crazy, like, first of all, you know, despite of what the fucking world's doing, I think what we're doing is god's work. You know what I'm saying, like if you were to that's for the you know being lazy to use a term, but we do, we're doing god's work and I think that's like that's the most important thing and I think that, because of that, all the testimonies at least that I received, anytime that anybody fucked with me was always positive, like yo got something to say. All this other, despite the fact that motherfuckers left you know what I mean that couldn't stand the heat in the kitchen. You know what I mean they fuck. You know what I mean. It fuck with us, no matter how you spin this shit. You know what I mean.

Eldar:

Yeah, so, with that being said, like this shit is good but it's hard and it takes fucking time, and a lot of people what I think is a lot of times, what totally has is that underestimate how much time it actually takes to break the fucking. I don't know what we're breaking, I don't know what to call it, but we're really breaking something, one one.

Toliy:

One thing I also wanted to mention on that was that, like, however, like there's a a huge difference in the timeline in your mind, that you feel like things took for you to understand something or for you to get some something. Then when you're teaching it to somebody else at least for me it feels like it's 100x longer, but is it a violation to put that timeline on somebody else. You have to be very careful with time.

Toliy:

No, not putting any kind of timeline. I'm saying it feels that way, Like if you did something and let's say it took you five years or 10 years, and that could be viewed upon as a long time Once you actually did it. It doesn't feel like, oh, I've been trying to do this for 20 years, or something like that. You don't feel that time doesn't weigh on you in that kind of way, right?

Eldar:

But then when you're teaching it to somebody else.

Toliy:

It could be like two months has passed, You're just like yo. It's been like fucking 20 years, Like what the fuck? That's how it feels, at least to me. Right, and you learning to do something and you being, even if you're extremely good at it or just good at it or whatever it is, the act of teaching it to somebody else is a completely different scenario and in some ways it's easier, but in a lot of ways it is extremely difficult and yeah, okay, fine, extremely difficult, but is it worth it?

Eldar:

Is it worth it, is it?

Toliy:

worth it. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's worth it, but it's like Right.

Eldar:

For example, right, if you were to take Harris, would you not take? Let's just say I'll paint the picture for you Harris, in 10 years, doubles or triples your sales, has new methods and is much better than you, and it's clear and you know you contributed to that fact and he's appreciative of it and everything is working nicely. But it's going to take 10 years. Oh, I mean, yeah, well, you see, you know what I'm saying, but right now what you see is mud. You know what I mean. Like what? What are you talking about? You know what I mean Like you don't? You know you don't see any of that. But if it happens, yeah, holy shit, like what?

Toliy:

the fuck yeah, yeah.

Eldar:

You know what I mean.

Toliy:

Like see, like your very experience and like like, for example, someone could progress, let's say like a quarter of a percent. A quarter of a percent right, but you're able to see that level of progression because you have recurrently taught people things right, where people who have not done that before or maybe have not-.

Eldar:

Again, you're offending me here, though, the reason why I see the progression of the quarter of a percent is not because I've taught people things and I have experience in this. It's because I'm playing close, very close attention to the actual progress that is happening. Oh sure, yeah.

Toliy:

What I'm saying is that, like you have the ability to see it, yeah, yeah. So like, see particular levels of progress that somebody like the like like. This is the point I'm trying to make is that, like you have the ability to see particular levels of progress where another individual, that that has not taught people, for example, like things in that, in, in, in that kind of way, by default, things are not to like practice right right, right away, like compassion and patience and understanding and this and that, but it's more to be like you don't see the light at the of of the tunnel because, you're not able to read the, the progress and the understanding and the changes that are happening on like a micro level right where, like um, what's called I don't know, like if somebody was like heard his first phone call and then they, they left for two years and came back and they and and they heard the next one, two, two years later.

Toliy:

Yeah, that's like easy to see, it's like right in your face. Like an idiot can understand that right. Yeah, but like to see it in that kind of way, like from day to day, it is completely like it's a completely different skill and ability is it good or bad?

Mike:

do you think it's? It's because you, the scale is different?

Eldar:

well, the scale is different, but it's also like my ability to see like and be appreciative of that which is so I was thinking, maybe he's calling it a quarter percent, right.

Toliy:

I'm calling it a hundred percent.

Mike:

You're calling it a lot of percent, because you see, well, yeah, it's a huge change, it's a hundred percent yeah, for him it's a quarter percent because he him.

Eldar:

It's a quarter percent because that's what he's measuring off of 10 years ahead. Yeah, I'm measuring from today to tomorrow, from the change.

Toliy:

It's a completely different scale but but it's not like that, like I'm intentionally trying to measure in that kind of way. No, I'm not. It's like definitely not saying that it's just like it's difficult to to see it in that kind of way.

Mike:

But is that because of what like what? Is that because of what?

Toliy:

well, like, like, at least me.

Toliy:

I feel that, like, in the position I'm in now, like I need to adjust the way that I look at things completely, you know, and including my communication.

Toliy:

But, yeah, my understanding of like, what change looks like or what improvement actually looks like, right, um, I often have a very high bar for these kind of things are like outlandish, probably, like, uh, expectations maybe, maybe, or thoughts that are probably not realistic, yeah, right, and then I involve myself in them too much and kind of like, yeah, like give too much or ask too much of someone that's not capable of of doing that, yeah, but, but, um, the like, the um progression of like, seeing that, like that is that is hard because, um, it, it, it, it becomes a lot more easier for yourself once you cause you, you rely on yourself and you've and you've done this and you've learned it and, like, you understand it. But to go back to the very beginning with someone who's a complete noob, that and that is very hard so you think alder sees it better because he has more experience in it um, he has more experience.

Toliy:

Well, what, what? I think it's a fact that he has more experience. Well, I think it's a fact that he has more experience, right, yeah? But I think that, like he, he understands, like he knows the next level of this that I don't know yet, like I, like I, I, I just don't fully understand it yet, you know, okay.

Mike:

And you? What do you mean when you say next?

Toliy:

level. What do you mean when you say next level? Like that to me, is my next level there, Like on that.

Eldar:

You know, you guys stopped a little.

Toliy:

No, I was saying that like it's very hard, it's completely different, like if you did something or you like learned something, it's very right. Like it's very difficult to go to, to like to somebody else if you're trying to teach them and they're at the very beginning. And I was saying that, like for me, like right now I'm learning and wrestling with setting unfair expectations, with like uh, like creating unfair, like huge goals, for example, right or like um, asking too much of somebody right or expecting too much of somebody right, and and doing all that and I'm trying to adjust my measures and adjust my measuring system so that I could enjoy the process and like to me, like a person having one instead of looking for a different person, right right.

Toliy:

Yeah, like one great phone call that one day could be like depending on what you're measuring, scale is a huge win. Or for another person to be like well, who cares? Like what does that even?

Eldar:

mean Right, for example. Well, even today, right, when we were working on a tonality and, like today, I finally heard a call that was decent in tone and I gave him a compliment. Yeah, and you were reluctant to give it.

Toliy:

Yeah, well, I was boiling from something. Why, you know?

Eldar:

Yeah, but so I'd like to like experience, that I'm experiencing that with that individual because we've, you know, we've accomplished something together, so it's part of like this is the truth of the matter is, right from yesterday's calls to today's calls, we saw a little bit of difference, and that's what I want to like, promote or encourage yeah, I'm, I'm saying that like it's it's difficult, like like I'm, like I don't consider myself, no, no, like expert right and like a sales sales right, anything, um, um.

Toliy:

But I'm saying that like if you, if you are competent in something, or you understand something or you've learned something, it is very difficult, at least for me for now, to speak to another individual who's at the very, very beginning stage of, maybe where I was 10 years ago, right, maybe, with even being lower than that, and then communicating and understanding and and like like being part of that person's life, like in in that, like like I, I, I I'm definitely struggling with, with doing that you know, but, um, but again, I think it comes down to like uh, yeah, yeah, like that, that's what I'm saying, like that's what I feel is the next thing for me to like.

Toliy:

learn at least or or it feels that way at least is that like, um, it's one thing to learn something, but to give it away or to share it with somebody, yeah, um, but like, the insanely paradoxical thing about it is almost like you've learned something and now you need to learn how to give it to somebody else. Yeah, like, oh, what are we talking about?

Eldar:

Yeah, we're talking about the fact that you finally, somebody else needs to go do it.

Toliy:

It's a you need to do this.

Eldar:

Yes, what we're talking about is that you finally, your cup is full, right, and you can give back. But giving back is also a tricky part, right, it's going back to where the fucking cave, the allegory of the cave. He's trying to go back and shine some light upon Harris Like yo, this is how it's so nice out there, come with me, bro, please. Yeah, and he's kicking and screaming like you, and I think that's a thing with everything, with every single scenario. Let's just say this particular thing is in sales.

Eldar:

You're just connected to this whole life too. You know what I mean. Or your things with girls. It is the same thing. Like, hey, dude, you're missing out and there's reasons why you're missing out, but you're kicking and screaming and saying, no, I don't want it. Only sometimes you want it. Yeah, the interesting part is the memory part that we're talking about, the fact that he's. We're sitting here right now bouncing out reason, quote, unquote against each other and things make sense. But as soon as we go, walk through that door and we go our separate ways, somebody else kicks in, somebody else knocked on the door, you opened it and now you're entertaining the shit. Why the fuck does that happen? It shouldn't happen.

Mike:

Well then, yeah, I mean, I was thinking about that, I guess In that specific object, in that specific like sphere, uh-huh. Yeah, maybe you don't have enough knowledge, I don't know if that's like.

Eldar:

Well, to me it's always been interesting, or I mean desirable to continue the conversation that is being had, like if we're talking about something very specific, I don't see how why not? This conversation doesn't go past this conversation. It keeps going because the application of what we're talking about here is everywhere in our everyday life, of course, everywhere. If we only paid attention, totally says, hey, that attention thing, just throw it in the garbage, that person who needs to pay attention, he's nowhere to be found. Why the fuck does that phenomenon happen? Why do we turn off the lights, you know, let that fucking loser in. That's fearful and egotistical and prideful, whatever the fuck that shit is. You know, to me I like to bridge that gap and always have a continuation in reality, because it's so much better, isn't it? And when we do have those glimpses of bridging the gap between reason and action and proper knowledge and everything else into reality, we tend to have a lot of fun Then it's on our terms, you know, versus someone else's fucking terms.

Mike:

Yeah.

Eldar:

The world that's constantly oppressing us, you know.

Mike:

Yeah.

Eldar:

Putting their little ideas and shit. We're the world. Why? Maybe, like you said, maybe we're not deserving of it?

Mike:

well, yeah, I think that's also like um part of a good life part. Well, it's definitely part of the good life is giving back but I think part of your quotes.

Eldar:

I was going through it for the t-shirts. Yeah. You said uh, if you're not living your virtuous life, how are you going to reap the benefits of one mike? I said this. You said if you're not living your virtuous life, how are you going to reap the benefits of one Mike? I said this. You said this.

Eldar:

Holy fuck, I don't even remember that there's a lot of things that you probably won't remember. The quotes that you said, and totally too Like some of them, are really really good. One is going on a t-shirt is thick skin is your hearing aid to the truth? Totally.

Mike:

I definitely don't remember that she speaks in riddles, though.

Eldar:

No, but a lot of times when we have these types of conversations. I think, that you know the types of quotes that you can come up with is like they're really profound. And who's talking Is the question.

Toliy:

I got one for you.

Eldar:

I think I'm free to figure this out.

Toliy:

Okay, I got one for you.

Toliy:

I think I figured this out, okay, and I'll first bring up an example of like, when people say like they'll talk about like cults or like stuff like that, or like, for example, like influencers online, right, or like particular things online, right, or like particular things like, oftentimes they'll, they'll, you know, shout loud, maybe, or they'll say something over and over again, but and maybe people will verbally agree with it, or or or believe in it, but it's not real, it doesn't actually have like a substance to it where, like, you can explain it, right.

Toliy:

So, here, here, here, here, um, here's what I was thinking of you can't like the, the, the process that you're talking about that needs to play out for for all individuals, right, is important, because it's impossible to teach proper belief without education, okay, right, and that whole education process is the journey that people go on, because you can't teach them to just believe. No, it's not like actual, real, real belief, yeah, right, and like, like, like, when you, for example, say what you say to, like yo, you're confident that, like, no one's better, you know this, or that you can't just like tell somebody that you can't just tell Mike that like, hey, mike, like, like, you're actually the best.

Toliy:

Yeah, like you can't just tell him that and him actually be like, yeah, yeah, I believe you, yeah, like, and actually believe it For sure, right, which is why the whole journey is a journey of educating the person, so that they then have the belief that was like teach to begin with.

Eldar:

Was taught, taught, yeah, sure, but that person has to feel it. The end result is the feeling, but they cannot feel it without the education.

Toliy:

I agree with this, which is the journey that the person goes on. 100% Right, because you can't just tell someone something without actually educating it for it to actually have substance on it. Now, what a lot of marketing tools or stuff like that try to do is they try to shout something at you so that you agree with it right, but you actually can't explain it, you can't talk about it. Yeah, you can't say why that's right, but because others do it maybe, or something like that like they put on that dress.

Toliy:

You put on that dress or stuff like that. You can actually explain that like hey, this dress is like you know, like this actually looks good because of x, y and z, or like this, and that, yeah, right, so so it's. So it's like a like a lot of people try to get them to believe them by again using like particular um tag tactics, which is like it's getting them to subscribe to something, but only for so long, only.

Toliy:

It's a very short-lived thing yeah right, only for so long, like they'll follow them only for correct, but then like they'll leave them, like this the next thing.

Toliy:

Something better comes around 100, but because there's nothing, there's no correlation or association of any success that was given, gotten from that which was heard yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's no there's nothing I'm saying is that like that whole process is the whole long-term education system that the person goes on in the journey, that they go on so that they can actually, like they have their own belief that that you share yourself for what you're saying we said this two hours ago, but we had to go on this journey for him to say it in his own words yeah, yeah, this is an example of that.

Mike:

Well, he's not a greenstone and it's now not mine or yours or ours. It's his yeah.

Eldar:

And that's how it always has to be. Yeah, you know what I mean. And then what he's going to do is he's going to build on it even more. Yeah, about this specific thing he's gonna take ownership. You can take, yeah, yeah, and he does that a lot. He'll take ownership of it and he'll build something else off of it and it can become even greater. Yeah, and that's why this is constantly ever expanding this consciousness, or whatever the you want to call it yeah, but.

Toliy:

But. But, like I said in the process of you like, like, yeah, yeah, like the, the, the, the, the allegory of the cave thing is so sick. Right, because the cave is dark and then you have where the light is and the person is saying no.

Mike:

I was thinking more about the fishing example we gave. I can teach you to fish or I can show you how to fish. If I give you a fish one day, you're not going to know what to do tomorrow. You don't have the knowledge, the skills, the abilities, the abilities. But if I teach you, you can rely on that when you go out into real world. You know how to fish, you know how to do what you're talking about yeah, but that that's like after the like the cape okay, sure, yeah, after the cave, yeah, after you got out, you're already, you're still like below that.

Toliy:

Like you're, you like, like you like. They don't even believe that you have a fish in your hand or that you have a tool to fish.

Mike:

So you just pull them out of the cave straight into the fishing creek.

Toliy:

Well, yeah, you have to go into the ugly ignorance, but I think usually when you go into it like you have a body of knowledge that you can use to fight off like the is like a, like a like. When you go into it it's a shocking process, right? Because you feel more off the bat like yo fuck, no, like no way, this is fucking like that's why he showed us the movie the Princess Bride.

Eldar:

And when he went into the forest it's like yo, I know this shit, I get away from here, here, here, here you know what I mean that's how you.

Mike:

He visions it, envisions it a lot of the times he's never watched that movie again I'm not allowing him to watch that every year, yeah, but but it was a good movie, not if it played.

Toliy:

That influence on you no, it didn't play that. I was just giving an example of one thing like that, movie has a lot of different things it's funny.

Eldar:

It's like it's a little corny fine, you know fine, but you emphasize that fucking part.

Toliy:

No, it just reminded me of it, but it's not even a good example, because he didn't know where everything was, but he kind of did it. But but he did, after a while he understood yeah, the example was more of like yeah, like when the fire came out of the ground he knew pick her up move her.

Toliy:

You heard the sound yeah, first time it lit the dress on fire, like, like that, that, yeah, like that. That's how it feels at different times, but it's not the reality of what, of, of, um, um, of what's happening. But, yeah, yeah, like. My first reaction, I guess, to going into the, into the back, into the cave, is like yo, what the fuck? You know, like, like, what the fuck?

Eldar:

yeah, no, I actually think that it's. Yeah, it's super necessary. Yeah, go back and be you. Be graceful about doing it.

Toliy:

Yeah, just the shock factor of it is like I don't know if it's anything that you can prepare for. It's so crazy that you're just like what the fuck? Because it's like you could just fucking leave right.

Eldar:

I'm just like yeah.

Mike:

Why is it what the fuck?

Eldar:

Because we made our own beliefs of how it should be that like, because you already paved the road, like you should say like oh, come on, we don't have to pave the road again, why don't we just use the same road?

Toliy:

you fail to remember how you were before you it's very difficult, like not not difficult, like like if you have a particular life right and you and you do things particular ways and you understand them for you to get put in like um, the place you were before is always an uncomfortable feeling kind of thing.

Toliy:

Like it's not like a familiar like, like, like, because it's not you anymore. You, you don't relate to this feeling at all. Like to you it's like what the fuck you know Right. Like like if you know how to do something properly, or you've been doing something properly and you feel the benefits of it. For you to go back into the muck it feels 10 X worse than when you were actually just in the muck.

Eldar:

That's only if you're being affected by the muck it feels 10x worse than when you were actually just in the muck. That's only if you're being affected by the muck.

Mike:

Is that how you feel?

Eldar:

No, no, I have fun with this shit bro.

Toliy:

I'm saying is that the way that you look, if you learn something, it does not mean that you by default learn. You by default understand what it's like.

Mike:

to go back into that thing no, just because you're learning doesn't mean you're capable to teach it right, well, like not, not, not not that you're capable to teach it, but yes, it is.

Toliy:

It is at first, I think, challenging to try to teach it, but it's more about, like you, the process of you learning and like improving. Right, like, it's like almost like a, like a vertical process. Right, like you've been going this and now you're far removed from where you were before. Right, like it look like if that was there and you're like here, right, and when you teach, you almost like um, like um, you go back into that place, but then then you have to learn, like you almost have to learn, what's going on. Now, that that, like you're back here, but with a different, like a different body of knowledge. Um, is it because you're teaching prematurely? Yeah, assessing the situation and understanding what's going on is part of it, but it's difficult for you to recollect and go all the way back to the beginning because you're extremely far removed from being in that place.

Mike:

Why would you have to go back to the beginning?

Toliy:

Because you're meeting the like, like. If you have a subject that's like at the beginning, you're meeting them at that beginning.

Mike:

But, but, but if you learn right, like yeah, I'm just trying to think, like, if you learn this specific thing, yeah right, and you learned it in a virtuous way or that's not in the equation. But are we talking about, like, just teaching something but not knowing how to go? Like, how would you go to teach somebody Right If you didn't have, like, the virtue of patience in order to like understand, to be patient with that person that you actually learn enough. What does?

Toliy:

that mean though?

Mike:

Like you're teaching Harris right now, but are you using patience to teach him?

Toliy:

Yes, you are Part of teaching is, for example, like it's not even patience. You don't need patience. You need to see things for what they are and you need to understand things right. But just because you learn how to do something, it does not mean that you have a refined approach of how to teach that same thing that you have so far associated yourself from the place of where the person is that you're teaching that it's very easy to like, skip steps or to like kind of like try to make it go faster.

Mike:

What you're saying is like yeah, skip steps, go faster. It sounds like maybe you haven't learned, you're teaching prematurely, where you haven't actually learned the full scope of what it takes to teach somebody.

Toliy:

Well, 100%.

Eldar:

That's what he's complaining about, yeah.

Toliy:

It doesn't mean that you for yourself have not learned. The process of teaching somebody else to me, at least from my experience so far, is a completely different mindset, completely different than you learning something for your own self.

Eldar:

The scope is different.

Toliy:

Yes, the scope is different and I could have never expected for this. There's no way somebody could have told me that yo, this, like what it is, this is what you have to prepare for. Like, like it's it. Like it's it like. Because, like, for example, when you're teaching something, someone right and you know something, and you're met with like ignorance or ego, the initial feeling is is definitely a wild one. Like it's like, holy fuck. Like it. Like it. I mean, it's like a very, uh, blown nuts. Yeah, yeah, it's like a, like a punch in the dick, right, but it was it. It's expected, but it feels almost unexpected. It's kind of like I don't know how to describe it. Like it, like it's, it's like is this right?

Mike:

is it logical though the punch in the dick or no?

Eldar:

well afterwards, when you when you reflect on, when you reflect on it, everything makes perfect sense.

Toliy:

oh, yeah, right, but like the carefulness of how to act and how to do everything, and um, because, also, if you're teaching somebody who's very ignorant part of being ignorant is being impressionable very impressionable, for good or for bad okay, right. So if you're not carefully thought out, if you don't do things a particular way, if you don't calculate things a particular way, right, um, you could easily get like you could easily have the person that you're teaching get bad habits along the way, that you then need to work harder to like, fucking beat out, right, like oh yeah, you know, I think you're going to be experiencing that next.

Toliy:

Yeah, right. So it's like you have a new like, like someone who's ignorant and new Right, who's going to be impressionable for everything, everything that, that that you do or have. You have a bad habit, they're gonna have a bad habit. You have a good like, like you might say one good thing that might get like nine bad things for every one good good thing. Like they're extremely impressionable for a bunch of things and if you're not very calculated with your actions, in a way that you move and act right, the process becomes more and more difficult.

Mike:

No, I understand. But I think that's why, yeah, no, I agree with what you're saying. But I was saying would that only happen when you teach prematurely, like if you had? I don't know, I guess it's impossible.

Eldar:

Yeah it is, it is, it is he's saying, he's confirming that.

Toliy:

That's the lesson that you're learning over and over again and it has nothing to do with what you've learned. Right, Like? It's like I don't even know how to describe it. It's such a weird. It has nothing to do with what you learned. Yeah, it's like a like.

Eldar:

I don't even know how to describe it. It's such a weird. Has it anything to do with what you learned? Like yeah, because a lot of times what you learn is not what then needs to be applied towards the other person. It's a completely different thing, but the things that you learn you didn't learn the things for, like, you didn't say yo, you know what Mike like this whole time. You know what I'm saying, like how to lead others, then that's a conversation about passing that on to other people so we typically learn about ourselves.

Eldar:

We have our own kind of desires. We don't come and say you know what?

Toliy:

I want to learn how to help others yeah, the way I almost initially felt right is that I'm going to go and I'm going to teach a person, but in the process I'm discovering that I'm going to go and I'm going to teach a person, but in the process I'm discovering that I first need to learn myself with another person before I can teach that other person Before they become receptive to that which you're trying to teach.

Toliy:

Yeah, and I need to learn, and those are the things that I need to learn. So I need to learn to learn, and those are the things that I need to learn. So I am, I need to learn before like it's, it's not a matter. Like I can't, I can't teach what I know, like with, with, with, yeah, with these kinds of things.

Mike:

So then is there like a distinction between, like, being patient towards yourself but then being patient towards others. Yeah, they're Same thing with all those things, probably Okay.

Toliy:

It's like, it's, it's um, and and like I.

Eldar:

I would say it's fair to.

Toliy:

It's fair to um to to. To have this example here. It's almost like like um, if you're a race car driver, right, like the nastiest one, right and um, you're, you're on top Right, right and um, you're, you're on top right and um, you need to stop racing. And you're, and you need to teach like a uh, like a, a nervous, like 13 year old or 14 year old how to drive. They have no idea. This is their first time in a car. Completely right, like you're gonna learn a lot about yourself in that process before you understand the right techniques or the right things that you need to do to teach this person how to drive right. And it has nothing to do with your own abilities of how to drive, because you clearly could take the fucking wheel and do like your, your, your, your race car driver and do do whatever right. But understanding the right, take the right moves, the right steps, the right things when you've never done it before is extremely difficult.

Eldar:

But extremely also rewarding if you can get it done, if you can figure it out.

Toliy:

Like Eldar could teach me something and then now he could laugh at me teaching someone else something. Mm-hmm, right, like that, like yeah.

Eldar:

Yeah, it's very funny.

Toliy:

Yeah.

Eldar:

But very interesting too at the same time, yeah you.

Toliy:

You definitely learn a lot about you, about yourself, in the process, but I think ultimately you learn in the process. But I think ultimately you learn like, if you continue with it, you will be able to teach someone something right and that person will get the value that you're looking for to get them to the beginning. But a lot of it is again you needing to see things for what they are, which requires you to slow down, make the right moves and understand exactly what to do, but you're going to mess up along the way. Again, it's like the same thing with your own things. You're going to take the wrong turns, you're going to make mistakes. You're going to do that. But in a scenario like this where you have another individual involved, each mistake that you make, you almost pay 10x for it, because now you need to spend 10x more time to try to, like help remove that habit or help remove that thing from that other individual. You know, yeah, yeah, I agree.

Eldar:

You know, yeah, I agree, like my mom always says it's not easy to pull a hippo from a swamp.

Toliy:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the crazy thing about it. Like the like, yeah, like. To me, it's such a wild thing that, like you need to learn how to teach someone to someone else to benefit them. What the fuck? Yeah, yeah, but it's a fascinating situation and opportunity in the first place totally because, think about it, you have a mind, you have a life that you can potentially influence to turn out a very specific way, like that's a crazy responsibility. Yeah, no no, no, what I mean? Like it's a crazy, like thing yeah, it definitely is.

Eldar:

And and like up until, obviously, the person is open to to to learn as well. Yeah, you know what I mean.

Toliy:

No, for sure they're like they. They have to be open to learn and they have to.

Eldar:

Yeah keep raising their hand. They have to meet you somewhere. Yeah, you know exactly. But and I think that that alone, right, there is a good starting. You know what I mean and always maybe find your find your way back to like maybe a reason, yeah, and patience and everything else you know, because if the person's still willing and raising their hand to learn, to try, then you can work with that.

Eldar:

Yeah, somehow no, no yeah you know, yeah up until they don't, then then then that's it. You know you go your separate ways, but you go your separate ways. But until they do, until they keep coming back and asking you questions and stuff like that, you can help them. You know, and that's the thing it's like. It's God's work. Like I said, you know, it's God's work If you can, you know, to find their way to the light. And you know, out of the cave.

Toliy:

But, again, like you learn like a completely different but something similar, like set of skills along the way, like of like of like human psyche, human interaction, like of understanding, like you basically, like you learn, yeah, like those that are like most ignorance on, like most ignorant on different things, like they're going to present you particular challenges, um, along the way, the learning that you get through the process of of like figuring out the right words to say for understanding to happen and for like um moments of being on the same page, like those are like crazy skills to uh, to like uh develop you know?

Eldar:

Yeah, but when you do, you know? You creating your world and your own reality that you are part of.

Toliy:

Yeah.

Eldar:

And if you do a good job, you're going to be very happy with it yeah you know, I think that's what everyone is striving for, but I have a very difficult time to be empowered and understand that this is what we have power to do. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, that's why I think we're the shit, because we have a glimpse into this reality. You know what I mean, without it being like the cliche, like you know all the powers in your hands and shit like that. You know we actually, you know, discuss it and explain how to do it. You know, I mean, to me it's within arm's reach Every time. You know you have this opportunity and everybody has this opportunity. So you have this opportunity, everybody has this opportunity. Originally, we started with what Tully? What was your problem? For the person to be obedient without asking questions and just kind of go and say keep your mouth shut and just follow. And now you came to a realization of what.

Toliy:

Well, well, and now you came to a realization of what well well, like it, like, like it's not like. I had that that that take in the beginning of this conversation where, like, I firmly believe that you know, well, one of your maybe like wishes.

Eldar:

If the world worked that way yeah, yeah, it's, it's just again. I don't find it pleasant or pleasurable to go on that route.

Eldar:

I just don't see it. You told him to quit vaping. He did, or he didn't quit for a week and what? What was learned? What trust was built, what conversation? Quit for a week? You know what I mean, right, and what, yeah, and like what was learned? What was? What trust was built, like you know what I mean. Like what conversation? Like he came back like feeling guilty, you know, feeling disappointed, and he has to ask him. Now he put him into uncomfortable situation, like I'm not going on that fucking journey. I don't like it. I would never tell him to do something like that. You know what I mean.

Eldar:

I know that we need to talk about more. So, pain addictions, right, what we talked about. Right, as you start removing certain things we have identified, that the certain addictions will just fall, fall to the side because they're not needed anymore, because it's a coping mechanism to certain pain. Yeah, you know he's not willing to. Maybe, you know, go on the journey of long, of curing a long lasting pain addiction, you know, association with bad stuff or whatever. Oh, quit this, you know. Like, quit the obvious. You know that's lazy to me.

Mike:

Yeah, yeah.

Eldar:

So I'm not willing to do that. I know I'm going to do that, I know I'm going to fail and I'm going to get a result that I'm not. I don't want. I don't want. You know, I'm ready to go on a long journey, you know, with the person. I think it's a lot more fascinating, it's a lot more cool and like it's going to give me a lot more pleasure and I think, the individual too. All right. So what do you guys think?

Mike:

But we solve his problem, I think only totally can give the testimony.

Eldar:

Yeah, it's gonna be interesting because, right, because he has a very specific Feeling about this, this thing, you know, to see how, now that if he did change, or if he did start to like, maybe shift a little bit of his viewpoint, how will that play out in reality? Because, because we're going to see it, we're going to see it play out, you know, with family, with himself, with us, more people going forward and stuff like that, to know, to see what kind of application is going to be used, you know. So.

Mike:

Let's talk.

Eldar:

What are your final thoughts?

Toliy:

Tully, if they are final, you learn that you learn a lot yeah, yeah like to think that you can teach somebody without giving them an education is an illusion. You know, that's how I feel wait to teach someone.

Eldar:

To think that you can teach someone without giving them proper education is an illusion.

Mike:

Yeah, that's like a and someone without giving them proper education is an illusion.

Eldar:

Yeah, that's like a and and by definition what's proper education and what's proper education by definition?

Toliy:

Uh, it is the same process that you learn, like you, you can't. Like, you can't, um, you can't skip, yeah, like you can't, um, expect somebody to learn something without them going on the same journey that you did to learn that. To learn that, like it's an illusion to think that, like I'm a basketball player, I know how to dunk.

Eldar:

yeah I have a child. I have an eight-year-old child who's five feet tall and does not know how to dunk right. Does he not have to learn how to basically dribble the ball right, how to pick up the ball, how to jump high enough to you know to dunk it? You know it's gonna take time. It's not. It's a process how to learn how to shoot the ball and all this other stuff, get familiar with all these intricate details about basketball in order to one day then to be able to dunk and be good at basketball. It's the same thing. How can you skip those steps without learning how to dribble, without learning how to jump you know how? I think it's impossible.

Toliy:

Just do it, Just dunk it. Yeah, the illusion that sometimes we get that's not real is the feeling that some things are possible. I definitely wrestle with that illusion at different times. But, yeah, some things are possible. I definitely wrestle with that illusion, um, at different times. But yeah, like you can't expect somebody to understand something without giving them the proper education and the and my like, the definition of a proper education is not like I'm not saying that, like you need to give them the right information. Like a proper education is like a full cycle scope scope scope of service of them of standing, falling, crawling, moving slowly, jogging, running, falling, getting injured.

Toliy:

It's a full encompassing thing. So it's not just like you giving them information. They need to go on that full journey, fucking ride, you know.

Eldar:

Okay, fair enough, those are good final thoughts. I don't have anything other. I agree with that a hundred percent. You know, and if you have, if you can be there to guide them right, be there, guide through the process. I think it helps speed up the process a little bit or at least make it less painful, because the person's not going there by himself.

Toliy:

Yeah, like now that I like I a little bit like stepped in, like shit on certain things, you know, like, yeah, now I definitely feel more like, because now I understand that like this feeling and this like raising awareness that we had on it, that like, yeah, now I'm more inclined to like, like, like to lean on you on like what, what to do, like what, when to like, uh, do what, and like how, how to act, before I can like act myself in that kind of way okay, you know, all right.

Eldar:

Well, I'll be happy to help if you ask yeah, mike, all right, then guys. Yes, we are done here, sorry. Thanks for watching.