Dennis Rox

148. Navigating Toxic Relationships: Understanding Misalignments and Self-Awareness

• Eldar, Mike, Toliy, Katherine • Episode 148

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How is it that someone can be in an abusive relationship, where they are mistreated all the time, and when asked why they don’t leave, their response is, 'Oh, well, he loves me'?

In this episode, the hosts delve into the complexities of toxic relationships, exploring why people get into them, why they stay, and how they can ultimately break free. They discuss self-awareness, the role of ego, and the importance of standing up for the truth. Real-life examples and philosophical insights are woven together to offer a comprehensive look at the patterns and dynamics that keep individuals trapped in harmful cycles. The conversation underscores the significance of having honest, intimate relationships where difficult truths can be faced head-on, leading to personal growth and healthier connections. The episode also touches on the reward of having one's life in order and how it manifests in interactions with others.

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Eldar:

So if your tolerance to your own self abuse is higher than the abuse, nonetheless, you're getting from the other individual in return, right? That little gap in between, you just say, yeah, it's love.

Katherine:

Instead of blaming the world, you're blaming your partner, blaming your family, or blaming whatever it is that you blame. It's turning that finger against you and saying like, okay, what am I doing wrong? And what can I, what can I do to fix this?

Mike:

If you're in pain, go shopping, sugar, go grab a drink

Katherine:

after

Mike:

work, those things. We're so good at that now.

Eldar:

Self preservation, it's instinctual in us to know that this hurts, but this won't. All right, guys, by popular demand, a very popular topic. For today's podcast is unhealthy relationships or toxic relationships. Right? And the question around the, this topic is how do we get into them? You know, why don't we get into them? And a lot of times how do we break out of them? Right? Why do a lot of toxic relationships have such a grip on us? That makes us keep going, make us keep going back and going back and back and back. Right. I think a lot of people can relate to this phenomenon, especially, No, I mean, I have my Examples. Maybe you probably have your example. Of course. Right? Where we, we're in the relationship and clearly it was constant bickering, constant fighting, constant, you know, just not seeing eye to eye, you know. Yeah.

Mike:

For who,

Eldar:

for who? The people that are in the relationship.

Mike:

It doesn't have to be a romantic one.

Eldar:

It just romantic. No, no. I'm saying any

Katherine:

relationship. I'm,

Eldar:

I'm giving you my example of what I used to have, right? I remember I'm remembering. Oh, okay. Where I was like, are you talking

Katherine:

about us? I don't think we fit that category.

Toliy:

Oh no, no, no. Me and Catherine, we're in a relationship. And then you went right into that.

Eldar:

Yeah, no, no, I said that Catherine also had a relationship also

Katherine:

like have experience. I guess like a toxic relationship. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm

Eldar:

sorry. So yeah, so not between me and Catherine, obviously, I would not call our relationship unhealthy or toxic. I like my relationship a lot, actually. But plenty of people have experienced these. Some people experience them on an ongoing basis.

All:

You

Eldar:

know, especially in some of the shows that we're watching, we can see how these types of relationships unravel, uh, where they end up. Right. So there's a lot of good questions around there, especially for the general public that is maybe, you know, thinking about relationships, getting into one or struggling to be in one or struggling in one struggling in one. Yeah. And, uh, so my question is like, um, obviously around the whole thing, I was like, why do we get into them? Why do we attract them? Number one. Uh, and then when we do attract them, Why do we stay in them for so long? And then when we finally ready to pull the plug or the other parties ready to pull the plug and they do a lot of times, what happens? We want to get back into it. Right. Despite the fact that there was, we have friends that were in abusive relationships, right? We have some stories where they were pretty bad,

All:

you

Eldar:

know, but something still. So it's almost like a constant loop that they go through, like, okay, you know, um, maybe they're suffering some sort of memory loss or something that they might think that it's, um, it's going to be different. It's going to be better next time around. Right. Why is this phenomenon? Maybe we can

Katherine:

fix it. I think there's like a, also like, like almost like a, a hope that's involved, like, oh, maybe it'll get better. Remember, we have a friend that his relationship wasn't very good with his fiance at the time. And I remember he made a comment like. Oh, it'll get better after marriage. And I'm like, what, why, how, how will it get better? That, that doesn't make any sense. If you can't fix it today, if you can't fix it right now, what makes you think it's going to be better in two years? So

Eldar:

if I, if he was here, if this friend was here and he sat down here, I think that he'll probably argue that certain milestones in life, like marriage, right? Maybe like kids can. Be the springboard to healthy relationship or change, better change. Solidify the

Mike:

relationship potentially. Maybe

Eldar:

solidify the relationship potentially, right? It might put a check mark in both people's boxes where it's like, Oh, now we have a kid together. And like now it's like, this is the most important thing. And they maybe find a common language or common ground. But I think that that box has to be there. Like you have to check that box for that individual where that person esteem getting married so highly. You know,

Katherine:

it's the checklist. Yeah. It was the checklist where

Eldar:

finally after this milestone, things are going to get better. That's like, and I think that a lot of people do get stuck on this. Yeah. That's the hope where, you know, let's just get over this little hump

Katherine:

and then

Eldar:

I'll quit smoking. Oh, I'll, I'll, I'll leave a hundred pounds. Actually,

Katherine:

the, the, the, I'll quit smoking is the actual example, the real example of the friend that I'm talking. Okay. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah. Like I'll quit after I stopped smoking or, I mean, after, you know, after I get married, it'll get better. And it's just

Eldar:

like, okay. Yeah. So, yeah, like I said, um, I guess we can start from the start from the jump. Totally. Do you understand what a toxic or unhealthy relationship is kind of somewhat? Um, I don't want to bring personal examples in your life, but I can. No, don't

All:

do

Toliy:

that. I do, but it's like, um, like the way i'm thinking about it is that like it Like it's not even a toxic or unhealthy relationship. It's like, uh, You Like to me, like, and any of these scenarios, scenarios, right. Is like, um, it's a combination of like your understandings of like how you understand things and then like the output that you, uh, also like give. Right. I don't know if that makes sense. No, I wouldn't press that button right now.

Katherine (2):

I didn't

Toliy:

understand. I think you should. Yeah. Like, like when, when. When we're saying a relationship is toxic, right? Let's say if we're like examining like some like extreme case or something or like some, something like really bad. Right. Um, I feel like that's kind of situation is called that because like, it's like the abilities of that person has at that time to like, like they process information a certain way and then they say particular things and then like it, um, like That man many times over and over again is then called a relationship, right?

Eldar (3):

You're

Eldar:

lucky. I messed something up Yeah, I'm not sure what you're saying at all, yeah, okay a toxic relationship totally yeah, right It's a relationship between two individuals.

Toliy:

No, no, I I

Eldar:

And I can explain to you what toxicity means

Toliy:

No, I understand what it is, but I'm saying it's a very specific

Eldar:

engagement between two individuals ongoing usually

Katherine:

more because like, what if, like, it could be your family in general,

Toliy:

you know, like

Eldar:

you could say that when you come home,

Toliy:

but like, yeah, but what it is is that it's people's understanding of things, right? Their misalignment with the, uh, truth. Right? It's like, but why are you going in that deep right now? Like, like, uh, you know, like,

Mike:

yeah, you just, you could, what you just say, you could say it's everything. All, all philosophy is Yeah. Misunderstanding of the truth.. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Could quick podcast? No. Yeah. Okay. We solved it. Yeah.

Katherine:

Final thoughts? Like course the facts, you know, just that

Eldar:

the reason why this, this is, yeah. So what you're saying is

Toliy:

toxic relat for that?

Eldar:

No, I think, I think, um, what, what, what problem is he having?

Toliy:

No, I'm not having a problem. Just like the, um, the thing that you were saying, it kind of clicked in my head. Right. And, um, yeah, just like, um, like, uh, um, um, uh, I was already trying to, trying to dive into, I guess, uh, why the things happened. Yeah, you kind of ran a little bit past that. We're trying to

Mike:

discuss it more of what it looks like. I just,

Eldar:

I just wanted to make everyone aware, at least, or totally in this case, because he usually is confused about these types of things, right? I'm not confused about

Toliy:

How am I usually confused? Like, usually I'm confused. You're like, hey, can we, can we define this or something like that? Four out of five times a week, I'm usually confused.

Eldar:

Well, to be fair, right, you'd probably be more confused about this because I don't remember at least you being in a very toxic relationship, right? Unlike, like, I remember, for example, Mike's on my own, you know what I mean? No, sure. We can definitely relate maybe to the topic or understand the topic closely. However, I can definitely explain. You know, make plenty of comments about how you, your family dynamic and your sisters specifically is very toxic and you know, this,

Toliy:

well, no, no, um, no, um, I, uh, I mean, I don't, uh, at least I don't feel confused about the, uh, the topic.

Eldar:

All right, fine, fine.

Toliy:

Yeah.

Eldar:

So, yeah. So, so then the question, right, we define what it is kind of, we understand what that is, right? Especially a prolonged, um, time that you've been in a relationship that's kind of going up and down, up and down. It's an ongoing thing where, you know, one day you're good, but then the next day comes and you're like, you're so exhausted by like, Oh my God, I can't believe it. Like, what am I doing here? Why am I here? You know, you have those doubts and stuff like that. You come to a point where you break up, you know, and then you, Come back and you want to make up

All:

and

Eldar:

it goes back and forth, back and forth like this. This is like a toxic relationship. And at the end of the day, right, a lot of your friends are telling you like, Hey, that's a toxic relationship. You should get out of here. You know what I mean? This is really bad. This is really bad, but you kind of are stuck in this loop, an ongoing loop, and you don't know what to do and how to, how to get out. Because for some hope or whatever other reasons that we can discuss here today, we always come back.

Toliy:

But are we saying that like. Like, I understand that there's levels to it, right. But I'm talking about the ones that we're categorizing as like bad, right. When people are like, yo, you should get out of this, like, you know, X, Y, Z. And you're like, well, they're very

Eldar:

clear ones.

Toliy:

Yeah. Right. Um, are you saying in those scenarios, the people like the rest of their life is completely fine and there's just one like toxic relationship or?

Eldar:

No, I'm not saying that. And I think that what you're alluding to is that, look, if this person doesn't have a shit together in most of their relationships in their life, most likely they're probably going to be, if it's a romantic relationship, also going to be the same kind of pattern or trajectory that they're set for themselves based on who they are as a person in general. And I agree with this. Okay.

Toliy:

Yeah, like like like I don't see those kind of scenarios where it's just like this like amazing great person that's like jolly Rabbit Jolly Ranger. Yeah, and then and then they just have this this one toxic dark like relationship. Okay, so there you go So totally just answer the fact that is it

Katherine:

impossible to have that situation?

Toliy:

Yes You could be on that

Mike:

impression potentially.

Toliy:

Yeah, like I I I like I don't see how that could be Possible it's like saying oh like he's a you know down to earth real good, but on the weekends, he kills two people occasionally, you know Yeah, no like that

Mike:

That's from your perspective looking from the outside in that person may be like yo, i'm actually a great guy great boyfriend No, but we're

Toliy:

not talking about how that person feels we're talking about like No, I think

Mike:

we're trying to talk about those people who are in toxic relationships, how they get into them. Why do they stay in them? I think these are the questions that

Eldar:

I think he's answering now by saying that you actually not relationship because you are the type of person in general to attract this specific relationship. Yes. Even it's

Toliy:

impossible for you to, to not be, if you bring in any example, that's like a, a bad one, like where you have a bad case, um, I don't think that you could show me an example where you have a person that's like, you know, Does things the right way like acts the right way talks the right way respects themselves the right way Carries themselves the right way then they have this one toxic relationship. That's like real bad.

Mike:

So you're saying if it's toxic is across the board

Toliy:

Yeah, yeah, no

Eldar:

What he's saying I think is that look, uh when it comes to relationships which has so much such a big dynamic as to like How it's going to play out, you might not be a toxic, disrespectful person. However, you might have low self esteem, which will allow the other person to disrespect you.

Toliy:

Yes. And that, and that type of, and like a toxic relationship. Yeah. Like this is not built on like a one day or one week scenario, right? Like if we're talking about one of these scenarios, it's never just like one day, one thing, one time. And that's it. It's. Thousands and thousands and thousands of little things, low self esteem. Uh, like, um, this is what I was trying to say the wrong way. Like, if you don't have the ability to process information correctly, then you're going to react or like react internally and think about particular things, and then you're also going to say particular things, right. And these are the things that create those kinds of scenarios, because like someone does one action and you're like, see, they don't love me. You know? Yeah. Like. That that's your understanding, right? Of like how whatever is happening works or like, um, maybe like, um, they're like, uh, like, yeah, bring, bring, bring in like any, um, scenario. Right. Um, however you internalize things or understand things, these thousands of little occasions that happen in a relationship, right. Cause there's thousands of interactions, if not millions, right. Between these two people or, or, or, or whatever we'd be talking about. Right. Um, the, the culmination of all of those things is what creates this toxic relationship. So how the person is, their output, right? Of like what they say, what they do and what their actions are. And then their internal, like their input as to like how they think about things, how they understand things. This is what happens. And that's who they are as people then get transferred into these kinds of things. And when you combine two of these types of, of people that, that both got it wrong, you This is what happens. This is the end result of it.

Eldar:

Well, that's well, I think he said it well, I think he broke it all down

All:

pretty

Eldar:

well, and I think it's fair, you know what I mean? Um, so then the next question then, uh, is, um, why is it so hard to leave a toxic relationship and why do you keep coming back? If you do leave it one day, if one day you woke up, you're like, ah, this is so terrible. I'm done with this person. You break it off. And then a couple of days pass, right? Like I miss them.

Katherine:

You know, I don't know if it's about like. Not wanting to do it is them not being able to do it. You know, it's not about want, it's about can. Remember something else that we were listening to the other day? I think maybe they don't, they lack the tools or the self awareness to know like, okay, this, this is actually not healthy for me. I'm not in a good place. This is not working out for me and I need to get out. A lot of times I don't, I don't think people have the awareness of how toxic things might be. But they do, they do have

Eldar:

glimpses. Yeah. They can sit down with a friend and the friend can raise awareness. Well, so, but

Katherine:

like, so how it's, how is it that like someone can be in an abusive relationship where you're getting mistreated all the time and then, you know, you, you know, ask this person like, Hey, why don't you leave? Like why are you, you know, putting up with this and like, Oh, well, he loves me. You know?

Toliy:

Well, yeah. How do

Katherine:

you explain that?

Toliy:

Well, like their bar as to what that means is so, so low. That like that to them at that moment might be true, but they might get a glimpse of like one day being like, yo, I had enough of this. Right. And then they're done with it. But then them wanting back is like. Um, like their, their, their extension of again, not being able to understand what's going on at all at all and not having the right definitions in place as to like, what does that mean? That they, they love you. Do they pick you up from work? Do they cover half the grocery bill?

Katherine:

Yeah. What does it buy you things? What does it mean? What does that mean? What is the meaning of love to, and

Toliy:

if that's the case, then yeah, like then, then they'll abuse you. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be bad. Time will pass. Some, some, um, wounds will heal eventually. Right. And then like, and then like your bars. So what's not that bad decreases. And then all of a sudden a couple of nice actions from that person. They love me, you know?

Eldar:

Yeah. And I think that to, to bridge the gap between what he said earlier, imagine an individual, like you said, right. Who's getting constantly abused. But they say that, Hey, but he loves me. The reason why that definition is there in the first place, for example, just to give a hypothetical example, that, that girl, whoever the guy was getting abused, they might have negative self talk to a point, their own negative self talk to a point that's even worse than, than the abuse that they're receiving from the external variable. Okay. So if I'm constantly in my head, I'm like, Oh, my piece of shit. I have bad self esteem. I have no self esteem. You know, I'm like constantly insecure. Right. Okay. Whatever the abuse is going to come out my way, it's not going to hurt as much as I'm already abusing myself. Like you're

Katherine (2):

already so bad to yourself. I was thinking

Mike:

about it, probably the same thing you're saying, but I had it in terms of pain. The pain of being together with that person is not as bad as the pain of being on your own. Correct. Single, whatever you want to call it.

Eldar:

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah, lonely. You have the ability to abuse yourself even more. So if your tolerance to your own self abuse is higher, then you Right. Then the abuse, nonetheless, you're getting from the other individual in return, right? That little gap in between, you just say, yeah, it's love.

Katherine:

Yeah. I was also just thinking about this and thinking that, like, I don't think it happens right away when you start receiving the abuse or like people start overstepping, like, like, yeah. Okay. So the way I was thinking, like in a romantic relationships, a lot of times Um, let's just say, uh, you know, the guy's really charming, he wins you over, he wins your trust and then, and then slowly things start, you know, going sideways and like now you're getting mistreated or whatever. But in the beginning, that person was really charming. You know, they gained your trust, like they enamored you with like, oh my gosh, like he's so nice. Oh, you were wearing

Eldar:

rose colored glasses.

Katherine:

Oh, yeah. Or, or that too. But then again, that's also like your perspective.

Eldar:

I think you see, I think we, we don't, we can't underestimate the fact that we are people as people can be really good chameleons. Okay. And as much as we, right, might get treated in such a good way in the beginning, we just don't see the red flags. Correct. We know how to put out quote unquote best foot forward in order to receive that type of treatment in return. And you want to see

Katherine:

the best in a person.

Eldar:

Yes. However, that is not sustainable because what you're doing is you're just acting.

Katherine:

Well, that and like

Toliy:

it, um, I

Katherine:

have to agree with that.

Toliy:

And it also comes down to us to like, what, what are people's definitions of like, Somebody treats me well, for example, again, what is that, is that gift giving, is that they pick me up from work, is that they split the bill, like what are all of these things that they're defining as good because like a lot of times these are like relatively like, you know, within arm's reach and on the easier side to do, but I guarantee you if they were paying attention to like, oh, this person is a respectful towards me, right? And, and, and, and I think lots of times you, you can look at another person and see how they treat themselves. And if they don't treat themselves better, they're definitely not going to treat you better, you know, so like, um, or it's going to be an act. Yeah, or yeah, if they're treating you better than they treat themselves, then yeah, then it's definitely going to be an act that that's definitely not sustainable. You know, it's

Eldar:

unsustainable act. And that is what you described. You've described the fact that we had a honeymoon. Everybody put their best foot forward, right? We didn't really get to know each other because we're putting my best foot forward. Because

Katherine:

you haven't, like, you're acting. You haven't

Eldar:

really learned the fact that this, this is also a human being with a lot of problems, struggling, right? But you, nobody presents that, right? Nobody comes into a relationship, date.

Katherine:

No one says, like, on the first date, Hey, I have trust issues, I'm depressed, and um, Nobody

Mike:

does that. I'm super jealous, or, you know, like, no one says this. You guys, the way I was thinking about it is, maybe, Like the things, those little sprinkles are actually there. You look at them as like spit balls, but really they're tennis balls or basketball rack. Cause even in the beginning from the first stage, if you're

Eldar:

paying

Mike:

attention, you'll know, if you really pay attention, but yeah, you're, are you more inclined not to pay attention? You are because, because of what? Because

Toliy:

you have a horse in a race. But I don't even think it's so much that to me, it feels like, I don't think people know, like, Like I don't even think that they view them as like, you know, like little like small things, right? Those red flags that we're talking about. I don't think that they have properly Defined what's important and what's not so like those things are there and regardless of what they think that that that that's what I think is like the best part about this is that like Whether they buy into it or not They're going to feel the repercussions of not knowing what's important and what's not regardless of whether they Like understand what he's talking about reality reality's undefeated. Yeah. Yeah, whether you whether you like it or not You're gonna get hit in the head the way that you're gonna feel a particular way whether you understand these things But I I don't think it it's it's it's a matter of like they're happening and people are downplaying them I think it's a matter of like they're happening and they don't even understand You What the important things are and what the not important things are and oftentimes They're prioritizing and saying that the not important things are the big things. Mm hmm, but they just have it completely wrong That's so like like what's actually important and what they're actually doing So I like I I think at least that's what's happening is that they don't actually know what good treatment is or like a good person is or like Any of that, like what, what, what that looks like. Well, think

Katherine:

about it. If, if that wasn't like modeled in your household, for example, if you grew up and you didn't have like a family that was a good role model in terms of like, what a respectful, a respectful relationship is or a loving relationship, you don't really know. And then you go out into the world with whatever perspective you have on that or how things should be. And then you try to apply it, but maybe you don't really know.

Toliy:

Yeah, yeah, I think the majority of people, um, in general, like, we all have some different kinds of emotional distresses that, like, we, we have, and then, like, if you're not one of those people that, like, Unpack those things or like get to a point where you can see what's going going on. Yeah, you're just going to be under the wrong Impression and you're going to be sharing to other people Why this person is treating you so well, for example, or why you like them a lot yeah, and they're they're also people that are under the wrong impression and They're not going to be like, oh, you know Just because you know He gets you this or he buys you that or he does that for you like this doesn't mean that like like that these are the important things are like This is a good person so like Because no one understands in that, for example, circle, including the person, then like everyone's just going to be under the wrong, like impression the whole time. Yeah. You know, what do you hear? Like says actual, like, Oh, like this person has good character. Like, uh, they're, uh, they're respectful to their friends and their family. Like they have self respect, you know, like, um, their, their word means something like no, no one's describing, like, These kinds of things when they're talking about another, um, individual, right? Like sometimes they say,

Eldar:

sometimes they say I back myself.

Katherine:

Yeah. I back myself.

Toliy:

Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. And oftentimes these people are staying in these kinds of relationships is because like, um, they have like, they, they have too much attachment to the, um, the situation that they're not willing to go into another, more truthful one. They'd rather kind of stay in what they are attached to already. And that's too hard to, to, uh, leave. But if everybody just operate on like, like on, on like the standout stand on business type of philosophy, right. Um, then there would be no like, you know, disrespect happening or no abuse happening or stuff like that. But because everyone has particular attachments to particular things, they can't. Let those go or jump over those and see the reality of what's going on there. Their attachment is blocking them from understanding like the, uh, the situation.

Eldar:

See, he's answered your question about attachments. The fact, the reason why you might not see those things or see things for what they are is because you have a, you have attachments, right? And the reason why you keep coming back is because again, you have certain attachments, right? Why would somebody go back to abusive relationship? The quote unquote, they love me. Why? It's pretty obvious, right? Up to a naked eye, everyone else who doesn't have the same horse in a race. Like, look, this is a, this is an abusive relationship. You complaining, you crying

Eldar (3):

every other day. Why are you going back for what? But. Tony says there's attachments,

Eldar:

there's attachments in play.

Mike:

Yeah, no, for sure. There's attachments, but that

Eldar:

almost dull the pain that is there when the abuse happens.

Mike:

Yeah,

Mike (2):

no, absolutely. It's okay.

Eldar:

He hit me, but he didn't give me, leave me a black eye. I can still go to work.

Toliy:

Yeah. Like it's, it's a really, um, harsh, I think reality to like understand, like, especially in the beginning for, for a lot of people, but like the state like that, like, like, Not having the attachment, actually standing, standing up for what's right. And all of those kinds of moments, like you'll, you'll never land yourself in any kind of like bad ongoing, like position or like scenario, but like, um, like the act of doing that for most people, the way that they grew up, right. Like most families like will fear, fear monger and like, they'll not empower their kids to like, stand up for these kinds of things. Right. Like, imagine if you went to like the yoga class. And then like, it was like you signed up for it and then like they're explaining something and it's terrible and you just said, Hey guys, like I'm out of here, the place sucks, you know, like if you really didn't like it or you didn't, like some people would just stay in there and they'll drag on for

Katherine (2):

like 20

Toliy:

classes and do all that, or like they'll get treated a particular way, like on someone or like, or something. Right. Instead of saying like, you know, the reality is that like the situation is bad. Said, I'm out of here. You know, that kind of empowerment is not something that most people have, like, out the box. Like, they grow up with, like, You know, being afraid and like being scared and like, you know, putting up with shit. Not wanting to

Katherine:

be rude or seeming like unkind or yeah

Toliy:

standing up standing up for what's right and always acting on it And like every moment to moment think about it like

Katherine:

you have to know who you are have agency and not be afraid to like Speak up about how you feel and yeah, yeah, that can be hard for a lot of a lot of people

Eldar:

Yeah,

Katherine:

so what do

Eldar:

we, what do we recommend for the people that are balancing back and forth into unhealthy relationships? What do we tell them? What do they need?

Katherine:

I mean, I think, I mean, I think How do you say it

Mike:

without saying the obvious, but also to have them think about it?

Katherine:

The development of self awareness is important, you know, because I'm pretty sure that most likely There's something that they can work on themselves To get them to a better place, you know, they need to have the self. What does that mean self awareness? Um,

All (2):

That's a that's a it's a hard. I agree with you I agree with you, but I agree with

Toliy:

ego probably right I I would say that the people in those scenarios probably have the most ego because they're the most difficult to talk to and to have a real Conversation with because they're gonna have every excuse or every like run around in the book on everything so like It is very difficult to have any kind of self awareness if you have a lot of ego.

Katherine (2):

That's true.

Toliy:

Yeah. If you be more humble, be more humble. You'll be able to not only see more things for yourself, but you'll also allow maybe the right people in your life that can help have a conversation with you.

Eldar:

Okay. How do you do that? And how do you, Catherine said, raise awareness, right? You have to have self awareness. You're saying being humble, like how do you bring that out? Go further and

Katherine:

like, just give like, Like my personal, um, like how I got to like, I guess having self awareness from not having it. So I was like, you know, let's just call it like a rock bottom, you know, I was feeling really uneasy, not like myself. I was feeling very unhappy. It was happened during the pandemic where I think a lot of us had like the time to like slow down and think, and I think that for some of us who are dealing with things and not knowing what they are, but you know, you start kind of noticing that like something is off, you're not feeling good about yourself, and maybe your self esteem is low, whatever it is, um, so I got to a point where I just, I just was feeling so uncomfortable with myself and I didn't have the tools or the knowledge, I didn't know what to do about it. Um, and eventually I spoke to you and I made the decision like, I, I want to see a therapist. I want to talk to someone about it. And in that first session, um, just, I had like so much pain and I was suffering and, and I couldn't even understand the cause because I, I was, I didn't even understand my emotions or how to process my emotions, right. So once I unloaded and just had all this like unloading of all these random feelings, then you start kind of focusing and really kind of stepping away from it and realizing like, oh shoot, I have attachments to a whole bunch of things that are, are causing me pain, suffering, they're, it's, it's not good for me at all. I need to like, I needed to realize that A lot of the things that these belief systems and the thoughts that I had, everything that I grew up believing was not a lie, but like it wasn't serving me, it was a bunch of bullshit. And a lot of it is like stuff that you learn from society, like things that people expect, you know, as a woman, for example. You got to, you know, be good in business. You want to be a good, uh, wife, you want to be a good mom. You have like all these little like stepping stones that you have to be, or you know, these, these, all these ideas. And I had to just really like, literally crumble, humble myself and be like, I'm, I'm. Nothing, none of this shit is serving me and I really need to like relearn what my values and belief system should be so that I can release the suffering and stop this madness like this is ridiculous, you know. So you start looking at things, it's basically letting go of all these beliefs and all these things that do not serve you and kind of relearning a new like life system for yourself or like a new belief system. You have to really transform yourself, your thoughts.

Toliy:

Wait, wait, wait, what you said there in that, like one of the first things you said, what, um, um, what, one, one of the first things that you said was you got to a point where you didn't know. And I think that that's, that's like a first, like a first, um, point, right, is that I feel like these people. They're definitely not in the I don't know phase. Yeah, you have to you have to be real enough to be like, you know What I

Eldar:

got a big problem with Catherine stuff

Toliy:

one more thing though What with the with the in in knowing like the like getting to a point where maybe you don't know Something or you don't know like like what what's happening and or like how it's happening I think you also need need to have that With a little bit, a little bit of belief, right? Um, that, that, that as Harris say, says, it could be better,

All:

right?

Toliy:

I think if you combine those two types of things, it gives you that opportunity to start the process of potentially

Eldar:

Sure, sure. But I think you guys are speeding through the process. And like I said, I think I have a problem with Catherine's thing, is that she used a very specific, a very cliche saying, I hit the rock bottom.

All:

Mmm, okay.

Eldar:

Okay? And the problem there is, how the fuck you get there, right? You guys know the answer. Yes, what you guys, yeah, what you guys are saying is like, okay, cool. Hit the rock bottom and then what happens, right? Oh, you, before you like this egotistic, arrogant person who knows everything about life, yet I have to checkbox this, checkbox this, this, you're going around knowing everything. But then all of a sudden you hit the rock bottom and then you don't know nothing. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. The fuck happened? I think it's a long, long, painful journey.

Katherine:

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, like, if you keep tripping over the same rock again and again.

All:

Yes.

Katherine:

Then you finally have to realize, okay, like, I'm not doing something right.

All:

There you go.

Katherine:

But you, it needs, like, again, like the humbling that we said, that like, Yeah. You need to be able to, instead of blaming the world, you're blaming your partner, blaming your family, or blaming whatever it is that you blame. Mm hmm. It's turning that finger against you and saying like, okay, what am I doing wrong? And what can I, what can I do to fix this?

Toliy:

Removing ego and being more humble.

Eldar:

You again, you again, yes. What you're doing is you're doing the next step, which is correct. The next step is correct that you're saying you're not saying how to get there. Right. Or the raise of the awareness of. Like, what are we raising awareness of the fact that you need to get hit rock bottom in order to become humble? Oh, I guess,

Katherine:

I guess I'm just kind of breaking this down because like, this is how I, you know, through therapy and then like, I'm like, okay, I have self awareness now, which I didn't have before.

Eldar:

Yeah, I think, I think I can help you with this. I think before you finally realized that you've hit rock bottom, you've been tumbling for quite some time feeling certain pains. Yeah. However, However, I think, and I think that the ego, big enough ego has, um, sustainability in pain, which if the ego is big enough, it can prolong the pain for long periods of time.

All:

Yeah.

Eldar:

Okay. So what happens? I mean, you justify it too. Yeah, so what happens a lot of the times, you're not up to the stage or you're not deserving yet. You're not ready. You're not deserving yet. Even of what being aware of your own pain. Yeah Yeah, no, you're you don't you you can't feel anything because you're so egotistical and arrogant Right that you are actually sitting in pain However, long periods of sitting in this pain and constantly right having for example me Eldar right keep pointing the finger at you say hey You know, or you, you can't balance off of me and blame me for anything, right? You sooner or later have to point the finger at yourself and say, Oh shit, I am in pain. And the reason why I'm in pain is because I'm doing this to myself.

Katherine:

Yeah.

Eldar:

And I think you can't skip this step. This is the biggest step that you can do is number one become aware that you're in pain

Toliy:

yeah, no acknowledge it that is that like, um, like the the uh, The the initial test is I would say that if your life overall kind of sucks and you don't feel like you're in pain

Mike (2):

Yeah,

Toliy:

you're arrogant bastard. Yeah, you're an arrogant bastard. You're an arrogant bastard. Yeah, because yeah, no it no It's 100 percent um, spot on. If you're arrogant and you're not at that point yet where you're in the, I don't know, that's what we kept saying.

Eldar:

You have to keep suffering.

Toliy:

Well, no, that's the thing is that, that, that I think is the, the, um, like the, uh, spell. And I think that, that is what the difficulty of what people, um, is happening is that I don't know if they're actually like, they're not consciously suffering. Correct. So they don't, yeah, like they're not actually like, Yeah, like you're not actually in pain and because you're not actually consciously in pain You're in that in between land where like, yeah, you're not good and you're not bad Yeah, right and you haven't picked a side of like, okay. Yes. I agree this life sucks Yeah, you know for example now you've taken the stance of like You're in pain and you're and you raise your hand like this hurts this

Eldar:

and this is where we speed up and fast forward to what you said I hit rock bottom and now I'm in the right place going to therapy and doing this and humbling myself and asking questions and finally on convincing myself by removing old belief systems, right? Potentially creating new ones or evaluating what's out there. And start filling your brain with some new stuff. It can be yoga, it can be pottery, it can be jewelry, it can be whatever, whatever, whatever. You're like, oh shoot, the world has so much more to offer than all this negative shit that I've been putting in my head that everybody else sold me to. And you arrogantly were following it without questioning. Therefore, you deserved all the pain that went your way. And the more you're attached to that stuff, The more likely you're going to experience painful prolonged period of time without even recognizing what the fuck is happening. Well, I was

Katherine:

just going to say that I think that for so many, I'm sorry, totally, I, I just, I don't even think I, I, I, well, I definitely didn't know that I was depressed. I didn't know, I, I just didn't have really any awareness of, of what I was going through, you know? Yeah, but I

Toliy:

think that like, see, like Timmy and I can speak on my own, like, um, self experience here. Like, um, mediocre suppressed reality. Is an absolutely okay one for the majority of people. It is absolutely okay.

Mike (2):

Yeah, it's true.

Toliy:

Like that is like what you learned. I also think

Mike:

we also like develop certain things that keep us busy. So we can't slow down enough. Distractions. Distractions. Those help us to be like, I'm in pain. And the thing is our memory flies. Like. Yeah, crazy fast. You're in pain. Okay. I need to solve it. What do I know that helps me with pain? Go shopping. Sure. I don't know. Sugar. Go grab a drink

All (3):

after work. Grab a drink.

Mike:

Yeah, those things. We're so good at that now after like many years I guess of making this. Well, I think that we're supposed to get good at this Mike. It's

Katherine:

like, it's like putting on a little band aid. No, no, no, no. It's

Eldar:

it's called Self preservation. It's instinctual in us. Yes to know that this hurts, but this won't. And you just keep grabbing for the lowest hanging fruit. For what feels better. What feels better. It's very easy to eat sugar. I know. Oh,

Mike:

I associate sugar with good. I feel good after sugar. You become so good at it. You don't even have to acknowledge the pain. Correct. For more than a split second. Addictions. Because you can fix it. Yes. Addictions

Eldar:

and all this, all the things that don't promote self awareness, right? You become a sloppy pig or whatever, right? It's that reason, you know what I mean? Because you don't actually understand the connection between the two. They've become so automatic and you no longer have a choice in the matter. You just do it subconsciously. It's a subconscious relationship between pain and quick fix. Pain quick fix, pain quick fix, which is, which is to a degree is a blessing because I'm not sure if, I mean, you have a lot more suicides if individuals would not be able to figure out like, oh shit, you know, like smoke a little bit of weed, drink a little bit of this, eat a little bit of sugar, you feel better, you know what I mean, have a little bit of sex, you know, you relieve temporarily at least your life.

Mike:

Yeah,

Eldar:

but like totally said, I think mediocre style lifestyle, right, can be prolonged for a very long time, probably lifetimes. Well,

Toliy:

yeah, because like that to me, that mediocre type of lifestyle, that's a generational issue, right? Like you're, you're like, for example, if you're a parent. You have kids, like you're a parent, and you live mediocre and mediocre lifestyle. Oh, this is when, yes. Right? Yes. And then you have kids, you pass down these types of fears, beliefs, and all these kinds of things to your kids. How Harris says, his dad tells him what?

Eldar:

Women's always right. That's one, but work, you're not supposed to like work. You're not supposed to like it, yeah. This is generational pass down of mediocre lifestyle that you've accepted in your life and now you're saying Harris, everybody has these types of jobs, shut the fuck up, you're supposed to suffer and that's it, stop complaining. Just

Katherine (2):

suffer, get a paycheck,

Toliy:

like everyone else. That's why you need to do philosophy. So that you don't fucking pass down generational suffering for the rest of your like miserable fucking life miserable life and your and your offsprings But

Mike:

yeah the question I think uh, how do you get there how do you find well

Katherine:

that's that requires self awareness right like Most of these people have no most people don't know that they're passing this on to their kids or

Eldar:

you hope that you know Luck of the draw, maybe. Well, yeah. You're around certain individuals that maybe have the ability to point the finger and say, Hey, like, what's wrong with you? Yeah. Why are you doing this? Aren't you in pain? Doesn't that hurt? You want to keep doing that? You keep hating yourself over that, right? And what happens a lot of the times, right? That individual, if you're not ready, if an individual who's hitting their head against the wall is not ready to start be awakened, they'll associate that individual as an enemy. Okay, they're like, oh shit, it's pushing, you know, because their trajectory, they have to suffer more for a very long period of time. This individual, this is why Catherine goes to, what's his name, uh, to therapy, right? And I ask a question to the therapist and her. Right? How do you speed up the process of this? And you're like, wait a second.

All (2):

Wait a second. You still

Eldar:

gotta suffer from, from this, all this other stuff. You know what I mean? I'm like, okay, cool. I'm already like, hey, you don't have to suffer that much. Let's have more fun. You can't do that yet. Yeah,

Katherine:

very early on, you told me, ask your therapist. Uh, how you can, what you can do to stop taking things so personally. That's right. And I asked her and she said, and you know, she like chuckled for a second and she's like, Catherine, you're a work in progress. Basically what she said was, slow your roll, obviously you'll get there when you'll get there. And you're obviously not there now, so you're going to have to work, work so that you can get there, you know? So

Mike:

you guys, are you guys saying like, uh, it's survival of the fittest until you crack it? Hmm.

All:

Well, yeah,

Mike:

like, yeah, that's a good

Katherine:

way to say it. Yeah, it is. To some degree, it is. Up until

Eldar:

you get to a point where a little bit of glimpses of light start coming through, you're hopefully in a good relationship. Hopefully your parents raised you a little bit better. Hopefully you find a therapist. That's where your

Katherine:

environment is so important. Think about it. If you don't have a supportive or positive environment, things can You're going to have

Eldar:

a hard time. It's going to be even harder. Yeah. Which is also, uh, I'm not sure if it's by mere chance.

Katherine:

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that's, that's a crazy point. You know what I mean?

Eldar:

Yeah. Where are we here in this space? Because our souls have a specific recollection. This is what you were talking about, right? Where a lot of times, right? We, uh, for example, if we were in the toxic relationship and then we broke it off, right? But you were the toxic person, right? You did the toxic stuff. For example, you cheated on your partner and that good quote unquote good partner broke it off with you. And they don't want to have anything to do with you anymore, right? Um, you want to get back into it. You want to, you realize like, Oh shoot, that would, that might've been the good one that got away, but you were the toxic individual. Yeah. Yeah. You have glimpses of moments of like clarity sometimes where you're like, Oh shit, I want to go back. Yeah. But that, that door is closed already. Right. And you saying that's the recollection of souls. That's how I felt about it. Yeah.

Mike:

And I think the more, more times you recollect the soul. The more, the closer you get to survival of the fittest and you can have a chance of survival, probably.

Eldar:

Mm. You can recognize that you are actually in pain.

Mike:

Yeah. Cause it's, you know, pain is, mm, mm, I guess, well, not pain, but Pain is gravity, bro. It is. But maybe 5%, 1%, 10%, I don't know how much percent, very low percentage of your, of the people's lives who are living in toxic relationships.

Mike (2):

Yeah.

Mike:

1 percent is. Like, uh, ability to see the truth, or not necessarily living in accordance with it, but ability to recognize, like, hey, Bless you. Yeah, yeah, like, very low. I don't know, I can't put a number on it, but. But I

Toliy:

also think that survival of the fittest, I think that's happening with everyone at all times. I just think that people have different definitions, like, they have different games that they're playing as to what they think. Is going to like help them survive or help them thrive or whatever it is, but, but people have it wrong, but everybody's able to have whatever opinion that, but the question

Mike:

is though, how did, let's just say us, us that are here, how do we get here all together at the same place at the same time to understand and agree with this, like a thing, it's not by chance, I think the only reason, divine

Katherine:

timing,

Mike:

I think, yeah, you can say that, but don't,

Eldar:

yeah, these, yeah, That's a, that's a fancy way to be able to say something and not explain it.

Mike:

Okay.

Eldar:

Yogi's. Yay!

Eldar (2):

You saw that?

Eldar:

What? You

Eldar (2):

saw the deviance? No, no. She gave me the, uh, Harry's finger. I didn't There's no deviance. Where'd you get the

Katherine:

Nothing, nothing happened to him.

Eldar (2):

She's very low key. I have footage. What time is it? She has a high, right? No, I actually didn't

Katherine:

hide it this time. I always do. I saw it. You saw it, right? I'm sure Mike saw it. I wasn't sure which finger it was,

Eldar (2):

though, because I 618, cats, fuck you. Well, that's her, that's her silent thing. Yeah. That's her giving me a compliment.

Katherine:

Like, if he was sitting next to me, I would have, like, tucked my elbow, you know? That's my move.

Eldar:

Yeah, you can say that. Yes, of course you can say it without needing to explain it. Somebody like James was sitting here, like, oh, that's deep. You know what I mean? Like, and appreciate that,

Katherine:

but it's not something that you really have to explain. It's just like, no,

Mike:

but I think it is more explainable than, than we think.

Mike (2):

Yeah.

Mike:

Yeah. I think there's certain formulas within us as individuals. Yeah. That we got here. Not to mention our, like our own hammerness, like there's a hammer to all of us.

Mike (2):

Yeah.

Mike:

That brought us together, that we bonded. But I think also, Something else is at play here.

Eldar:

Yeah, and the interesting part is, right, we're getting to this little conundrum of like, recollection of the souls through Socrates way, right? But there's another practice, right, philosophy practice, that, that emphasizes the importance of trying to recollect your previous lives. And try to understand who you were and why you were the way you are. Buddhism? Buddhism. Yeah. Eastern philosophies talks about this. You know what I mean?

Katherine (2):

What do you think?

Katherine:

That's what I just said. That's Eastern philosophy.

Eldar:

Well, yes.

Katherine:

Buddhism came after.

Eldar:

To me, I'm more, I'm more interested to find out why that is happening, right? Why the phenomena is happening. And then is it mere chance that we actually thinking about it? Without maybe diving deep into Eastern philosophy, or maybe even Socrates, but we have this feeling as to why we're raising these questions in the first place. Why do these formulas maybe work the way they do, and why is it here? You know what I mean? Would we have the same type of feelings if we were not on the same page? Probably not.

All (2):

Probably not, no.

Eldar (3):

You know? So yeah, so how do we get here? Yeah,

Mike:

I think like, uh, like, I don't know, I think we spoke about this before, but as far as me and you, like, uh, before we met, we always like wanted to have fun and, and we never believed like the system or went against the system. I think that that was like a, a big factor.

Mike (2):

Yeah.

Mike:

Right. We always wanted to have fun in as many situations as possible. Yeah. You know, I think that was like, um, important to us.

Eldar:

I think those are the, those are the two subconscious things that we both carried. Yeah. Mm hmm, right? Yeah, you know youth that aligns that aligns very closely to like what the fuck we want But also

Mike:

I think we always question things why things were the way they were. Yeah, like we question authority authority For example, that was the start of it. Yeah, right Yeah, probably questioning authority is questioning the way the world is too, right? The party is in alignment and aligned with the world. Yeah, though our parents also they telling us a bunch of shit Yeah authority, but why why why are we doing this? Yeah, cuz it's like it was getting in the way of I think things that we like to do, it was stopping us from being able to continue that. That's right. But I don't know if that's

Eldar:

like a related to it, but. Well, no, I think that this is a very important key here because at the end of the day, I think that, uh, I think everything that we're doing, at least through this philosophy and stuff and these types of topics is what we're trying to secure is a good life. I think a good life is a fun life. Yeah. And the fun life is a good life, you know, and vice versa. So, um. Yeah, I think that, you know, to some degree that this is not a mere chance for us to try to figure out the formula. Catholics trying to figure out the formula, totally trying to figure out the formula, right? Everyone has their own reasons, definitions, why, as to why

All:

we're

Eldar:

trying to have fun, right? Because we all try to have fun.

Mike:

Yeah, like, I guess it makes me think, like, why did Plato become Socrates number one student, right? Yeah, why did he already have like some kind of base or Socrates was that good?

Mike (2):

Yeah,

Mike:

that he's like, yo, I gotta sign up for this guy. Well, yeah, of course,

Eldar:

of course, right? Like it's almost like they maybe had that also divine intervention

Katherine:

Divine timing

Eldar:

in their moment right where Plato was able to see what he saw. He's like, you know, I like that You know what I mean? Like, this guy is a troll, I like how he's doing it, and he's really having fun with it. You know, and he gravitated towards that because maybe he had something in him as well. Well,

Mike:

then if we're saying, the, that's gotta be like the law of the, life is undefeated, right? This is also, I guess to me, it sounds like it's in line with that as well, for the opposite side.

Eldar:

Well, I think that we need to probably read about what Socrates talks about, the immortality of the soul, and why this is what you're talking about. And the recollection of everything that the soul already knows. And this is in this life, at least in the physical form, we're trying to do that. We're trying to recollect that which is divine timing, which is divine constant. Which is the soul, right? It has all the answers. It has all knowing and you know, that, and the, the faster we do it on whatever, the better we feel,

All:

you know,

Eldar:

so that's what Tony's recommendation to do philosophies, I think is an important one because a lot of us, right. Uh, are under the wrong impressions about reality. And therefore we get into these relationships first, number one with ourselves, right? And then we extend ourselves, these toxic selves onto the other relationships. And then vice versa. And then you have this exchange of constant flow of stupidity and nonsense, hurt, pain, trauma, and all this other stuff goes back and forth recycling because we don't know what's right. And we don't know how to stand up for ourselves. That's why, you know, you have the situations with a sister where she violates and he doesn't know how to stand up for himself and vice versa. You know what I mean? And then you try to learn what? Boundaries, quote unquote, you know, therapeutic word, right? Uh, and all in order to be able to preserve yourself. And find out who you are and what your self esteem is. Yeah. What you okay with letting in. Well, think about it. It's about

Katherine:

self respect and then having that person.

Eldar:

Correct.

Katherine:

Either respect you or you learning how to navigate that situation without getting disrespected every time you see them or interact with them

Eldar:

Correct. So again, we constantly land at the same fucking answer. Everything is exactly where it's supposed to be. Mm hmm What the fuck?

Toliy:

Yeah, one one one thing with people but people are listening. They need help what one one one thing I think that remains true is that like If anyone knows, for example, someone that's in like an extremely toxic or like a toxic, uh, scenario, I guarantee you it is difficult to be honest with that person.

Mike:

Guarantee you. Cause it's like, uh, after time it falls on deaf ears and you're like, what's the point here? Well,

Toliy:

well, well, it's not even that it's because, um, the person who's in that scenario, they're like a know it all

Eldar (3):

type of person. And they react particular ways towards truth. So are you afraid of them? That's why you can't be honest with them Um,

Eldar:

I think I don't know You know what? I would say most people probably would be afraid even katherine had a hard time telling her friend like yo the fuck What's wrong with you? I'm not i'm afraid now. My life's in danger like enough is enough here, but it was hard to do

Katherine:

It was very hard to do Yeah,

Eldar:

uh And Tony's asking, like, it's, it's supposed to be hard because that person's ego is a who's a know it all, supposed to have a very hard time taking it in, and you don't want the backlash. A lot of, a lot of time

Katherine:

that truth is going to get you in a confrontation, or you, you know, or that person would just be like, fuck off. And then like, you lose, you know, it's just, you don't know what it's going to bring, but it's definitely going to be uncomfortable.

Toliy:

Yeah, yeah, that, and then, and then, and then it's also in those kinds of scenarios. I think what's happening is that. There's more of an attachment to maintaining a relationship with that person and the idea of being honest with them. Yeah, it's gonna be the the fear you have of that relationship now being dead because of the honesty that you give them.

All (2):

Yeah.

Toliy:

That maybe you have a hunch that they can't take to begin with. But, but I

Eldar:

think I think totally what totally is making a very good point here and that is why in your case, right? And many other cases, You have to put the relationship on the line.

All (4):

Yes, that's what I'm saying. You do.

Toliy:

And that's ultimately why we come so tough. Standing on business will always be the best scenario.

Eldar:

Me and Catherine almost had a divorce the other day. Well, I'm just saying, I'm going to go pee. We

Katherine (2):

did, yeah.

Eldar:

Whoa. But for us to reveal those details, you might have to subscribe to our Patreon, which is non existent and costs

Mike:

zero dollars. Is it because the Person's approach is wrong. Like a lot of the times, right? You're going to butt heads. If, uh, if I'm going to call you out on your shit, right. By making statements, you're not going to perceive that. Well, you're going to be like, yo, we're going to fight. But if I ask you questions and lead you to the truth, which most people don't, how is that going to be perceived?

Katherine:

I think also like the way that you say things, how they land. We'll, we'll definitely, uh, you know, and that's what I'm saying, like,

Mike:

we're generally generally people, when they try to help somebody, they don't ask questions. They more so give their opinions and statements on solicitor advice, which is not like a, it's not helped. It's attacking the ego. Right. But, and I think that's why most people feel like, well, one second,

Eldar:

one second, one second before you continue, Mike, uh, I think you might be able to, you might be confusing the public. Um, You might be attacking the ego. Mm hmm. However, you're leading with the ego if you're providing unsolicited advice Okay, so you have two egos now, correct? Individuals hurt. Yeah, we know who's hurt right that person's already has an ego and attached attachments and arrogance and stuff like that And now you have another individual who quote unquote is your friend? Yes, right giving you unsolicited advice That's the problem and well, there you go So what's happening, then you have a boom, right? That's

Mike:

why it will never work. It probably

Eldar:

won't work. Yes.

Mike:

And that's why people are frustrated. They don't want to try it. But that's because people actually have not slowed down or learned enough to actually lead with questions. Correct. You know, and that is the only

Katherine:

slow down enough to actually listen.

Mike:

Yes, because a lot

Katherine:

of times, like you hear a problem and you go into problem solve mode, um, but a lot of times people just want to be heard, you know, like they just, you know, empathy, they just want some empathy, you know, that's like the bare minimum that you can give them.

Mike:

Because definitely it could be like, I understand where you're coming from. Like, like, uh, if you were having a friendship and like, you're constantly having the same conversations, but you don't know the approach of asking questions. You're gonna get frustrated because you think you're doing the right thing. Yeah, but you're coming out ego Which you're not conscious that it's coming from ego.

Eldar:

That's right.

Mike:

Like this is gonna be make you angry frustrated upset You're not gonna want to bring it up But that's because again, you're not doing the right thing Because you don't know you don't know

Katherine:

what

Mike:

to do

Katherine:

and sometimes you're confronted with like, you know, perhaps like in my in my case like I've had friends who have been in In very serious situation, toxic relationships that are have gone to a point. It's very serious at that point. Like safety is a concern I'm, not a professional like like my heart breaks, you know for my friend and everything But i'm not an actual professional that knows how to actually correctly deal with a matter like that, you know I can try my best. Yeah, but i'm I really don't know And it's um, I'm not in it, I don't understand it, I, I, you know, I don't know how to navigate it, I didn't know her partner at all, so it puts me also like, you know, I don't really know how to, you know,

Eldar:

how to

Katherine:

help correct

Eldar:

it. You just know that the situation's bad.

Katherine:

I just know that this is not good.

Eldar:

Yeah, and

Katherine:

it's dangerous and my opinion is like, you got to get out of that, you know, like for your safety, you know, that's all I can,

Eldar:

yeah. And the thing is, um, see, it's interesting what you just said also is that you said, Hey, I'm not a professional. Okay. I don't know what to do with these things, right? Yeah. I don't have

Katherine:

experience and I'm going to get you,

Eldar:

I'm going to get you to a place where you should. Um, then be very careful what type of relationships you're having in the first place. Okay, and this is what I'm going to say. Um, for example, me and Mike, we have a friendship, right? And I pretty much, and Mike, vice versa, we know each other's life stories.

Katherine (2):

For sure, yeah.

Eldar:

Okay, so we have an ongoing, right, ongoing storyline.

All:

For

Eldar:

example, relationships for Mike. I know Mike's relationship timeline. I know what happened. I know why it happened. I know what's going on. So if Mike was to come into a relationship, right, well, Mike can't come into a, let's just say in a relationship without me knowing what's actually going on with Mike and why he got there in the first place, right? Because we have a very intimate relationship together, right? And we know pretty much the timeline. We know what's going on.

All:

Yeah.

Eldar:

So if he was to get into a relationship. I would not, number one, not be surprised if it was an abusive one, for example, right? And number two, I would know exactly what to say and how to say it to, to raise awareness and bring about a conversation. That is conducive to both of us where the other individual will see the light sooner or later, you know what I mean? Because I have a story.

All:

Mm hmm,

Eldar:

right with Mike. We have a very intimate relationship He tells me everything and I tell him everything in your case a lot of that way. Yeah, it's a lot of it is abrupt

Katherine:

It's right. There's a lot of

Eldar:

yeah

Katherine:

gaps in there.

Eldar:

There's maybe a lot of dishonesty Right? There's not sharing and not having these types of relationships. I think ultimately, or at least for myself, I like to have these types of relationships where, or these types of relationships, or these types of relationships with you guys, where there is an actual story that we know of and it's continuous. Right. Because then there's no abruptions or there's no like, Oh, what the hell? Like, this is a left field. What happened here? What happened there? This can't happen. You know what I mean? These surprises can happen. If they do happen, we'll know exactly why we can track them down as to why you got, you got here in the first place. And that will allow us to have very honest conversations versus what totally talked about being around the bush and being scared to putting your own relationship on the line with them. Right. And saying it how it is.

All:

Mm hmm.

Eldar:

So. put a bowtie on this ramble is I think that, um, you have to know, right? You have to know the individual. You have to have relationships with them. You have to give them undivided attention. You have to pay attention to really then have the ability or not be put in a position where Mike gets in some crazy ass situation and I'm not going to know how to guide him out of it or help him see the light when he does fall, if he does fall and vice versa. You know what I mean? And like, like I just recently fell, right? I recently fell and I needed people around me to be like, Hey. You know what I mean? Like, wake up, you know, you know what's important, you know how you need to move, we understand, we're behind you, but this is the more important thing. And that's what I needed in that moment. And the reason why you were able to say these things and how you said them, is because you know me. You know what I mean? And that's why I listened, I was able to be receptive. You know what I mean? Even though my head was gone for quite some time.

Mike:

You know

Eldar:

what I mean? If we didn't have this relationship. I probably would have went rogue. You know what I mean? And then people are like, what the fuck? You know, this is out of character. Even though this was out of character. For sure. You know what I mean? But I'm also human.

Katherine:

Yeah, you were already in the position of being out of character.

Eldar:

Yeah. You know, I mean, I made a Van Damme video. Mike made a Van Damme video of me at the gym. You know what I mean? Maybe you guys will see it one day. But you have to subscribe to the Patreon. That doesn't exist. Yeah, so what I'm saying is that, There are storylines, you know what I mean? So there's no surprises. There's no like where is this coming from and why this is coming from, you know I think that me and you right Part of that, we're still creating that storyline so you can know why Mike had a specific opinion about the situation versus what you had An opinion because maybe you still don't know certain parts of me.

Katherine:

Well, yeah I've never seen like there's a certain size of you that I did Yeah, and that's why I saw before yeah,

Eldar:

and well why the reaction was the way it was So it's like wait a

Katherine:

second. Is this like the new the new tapped in verse like this is it? Like yeah, this was yeah, the new version of elder.

All:

Yeah You

Katherine:

That I am unfamiliar with, you know, a lot of times, like, it's just also like not knowing how to like, how, how can I navigate that? Like learn this part of him while also like, you know, providing the right support because like, I've like, we've never been there before,

Eldar:

you know? Yes, but I think there's a reason for that as well. Like I said, there's a reason why I think you're sitting here now in the podcast and you were happy to be here and we're happy to have you, obviously, always, you know, because that's also an attempt to understand a little bit further of who we are, why we are, so you can then be also in that same storyline as to like what's going on.

Toliy:

Yeah, see, but I also think that like, I mean, at least to me, how I'm interpreting like a big part of what happened is maybe like. Um, if, if you got momentarily sick, for example, right. Um, if we're, if we're talking about it in these kinds of terms of, of what we're saying, um, today, I think it's maybe like what, what, what happened is the, the feeling of, um, of, uh, what was the word we used? Uh, not a bad life, um, uh, mediocre life and like, like the, the acknowledgement of like, That's the type of disrespect that, that's happening, and I think that like, that's what the sickness was, and then it was like, yo, like, you gotta get out of that type, type of a thing.

Eldar:

Yeah.

Toliy:

Do, do you agree? Like,

Eldar:

you know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's, that's exactly what happened.

Toliy:

Yeah.

Eldar:

That's exactly what happened.

Toliy:

Yeah, like the acknowledgement of, of what happened was the things that you stand, don't completely stand against. Yeah.

Eldar:

Completely. Yeah. And because of the fact that it came the way it did, after everything that we've tried to do, it

Toliy:

was

Eldar:

a complete disrespect.

Toliy:

Yeah.

Eldar:

Yeah, and that's how we, that's why the reaction was the way it was.

Toliy:

Yeah.

Eldar:

You know, and sure, I did overreact. I mean, listen, guys, you know what I mean? You probably saw the human there, right there, you know? You know, where you like, oh, Elder has his shit together or whatever, knows how to react every time. No, like, not always. Completely got court of guard here almost, you know what I mean? And it was, it's not even directly related to me, it was related to a friend, who's back I have, you know what I mean, and I had to have, you know? So, yeah. So I think it is important sometimes to, um, like Toli said, to carry a level of non attachment when coming into scenarios of,

Eldar (3):

how would you want to call that? Of holding court, maybe? Yeah. Oh, uh, uh, a

Eldar:

of like, what did you say before holding forward? Like be like you have to carry a, a level of non-attachment already to have, make a move of non-attachment to other things in order to, to get to the truth.

Toliy:

Well, well, that, that's the thing is that, like, for example, if you're afraid to tell someone something in that kind of relationship, right? Mm-hmm . I guess like consciously the question you can ask yourself, which I don't think anyone would ever. Sign up for is like, would you rather have like this non re, non-real relationship with this person, or would you rather have like, uh, like no relationship at all?

Eldar:

Yeah, and that's what I was telling you about, right? Mm-hmm . At the end of the day, right? If you care for this friend, how much do you actually care? Yeah. And like, what actual

Toliy:

relationship do you have actually have, right? Mm-hmm . Yeah. And like if, if you're consciously thinking about it at, at that moment, for example, and you're, and, and if you're like afraid, um. To say something or, or, or, or, or like some, some kind of similar scenario like that. I don't think that you can ever, um, consciously agree or tell yourself that, Hey, I'd rather have this BS relationship with this person. Um, like the not have it at all.

Katherine:

Yeah, I think, I think it's something that you have to face, like, you know, what I said like earlier about kind of like letting go of an old identity and then kind of, you know, kind of learning yourself. So I, myself personally, had a really hard time sometimes, um, one, expressing my feelings, even like acknowledging them, but like also kind of really, you know, I guess being honest with, with friends because I, it was just hard for me to like really, you know, have my voice and like express myself sometimes. And, or even if, if like, I was so scared of, um, not controversy, what's the word of like confrontation, disagreement. Like I've always like had a really hard time with that stuff. So what I did was I would just not speak. I wouldn't voice certain things just to avoid the confrontation.

Toliy:

Great thing. Those that like the opportunity of this. Like the, the scenario of disagreement at least gives you an opportunity for agreement. Of course. But also like being yourself and

Katherine:

like, like, you know, showing the person who you are, you know, now I, you know, how I see it now is I'm, I've been able to have more honest conversations with my friends and actually let them see who I am. And now at this point I can say, I don't have that fear of losing a friendship. If I'm being myself, you know, like I, I, I value more just being myself genuinely than like being scared or beating around the bush. But it, it, it took, you know, it, it's like baby steps, right? Like it, I had to kind of go through certain things with that friendship in order to have the friendship be better today than it was a few years ago, you know, it's not perfect. So, but no, for sure.

Toliy:

And, and, and I think that like that process is basically like your. Acquiring and maybe like learning and deciding on what your belief systems are right like learning

Katherine:

who I am

Toliy:

Yeah, who

Katherine:

really am I?

Toliy:

Yeah, you know the you standing on those things is your Um, like expression of those belief systems or lack of

All:

right.

Eldar:

Yeah, I think it's important what totally said about the fact that if you're just a mouse and you just kind of like allowing the other individual to just talk to you or at you or whatever, and you have no say, like you said, it's a terrible thing because you'll never get anywhere. Right. But if you do disagree. Right. That almost invites

All:

to the

Eldar:

potential of a greens or if not, like you said, then you could have the ability to put down the relationship that you don't want to be in. Right. And walk away if you need to, because you no longer have the same attachment that you used to do for people pleasing. I feel like there's an

Katherine:

understanding. She knows who I am, you know, we, we're very different and we can disagree. Right.

Eldar:

Yeah.

Katherine:

It's not knowing how to challenge.

Eldar:

Yeah.

Katherine:

You know, not knowing how to ask, like, certain questions or like lead, like, that's not a skill that I would say, like, I have, you know, that I have been practicing that I have not, you know? So challenging, you

Eldar:

know, surprising this on me as well. We used to go to parties

Katherine:

and then, you know, challenging. And then that, that goes, falls right into place with like that, that confrontation, that is not something that I'm, I, you know, it's uncomfortable for me

Mike (2):

yet.

Katherine:

Yeah, yeah, so learning how to get there. I forgot how to like connect this to what

Eldar:

I was saying. No, no, no, this is, this is all correct. Yeah, that's the fact that, you know, um, learning how to disagree, like Toli said, gives you the opportunity to find the truth and maybe agree. And I think that's why, one of the reasons why we have, What we have or feels the way it does feel is because we went through many, many disagreements.

All:

We've

Eldar:

argued many, many times. We've tried to find the truth many times and the times when we did find it, we've all tuned in into it and said, I agree with that. And then if he agrees with it, we share this understanding together. And that is what makes us one for that moment. And that feels hella good.

Toliy:

Yeah, I feel like a disagreement is completely fine as long as it's out in the open. Right? Because then it's like, one person feels one way. And another person feels another way and there's acknowledgement of of that, right? Which then gives you an opportunity, right? But like if you're feeling a particular type of way, but you're not sharing it For example, then there's never that opportunity of of agreement or disagreement or discussion

Katherine (2):

or anything What

Eldar:

if you want a relationship for 15 20? Maybe 12 years, you know, it's a long relationship and then boom, maybe some of it was toxic. Maybe some of it was good. But would you tell the person who's, you know, I was going to say, Hey, like, no, I can't put this down. You know, we've been in a relationship for so long now, she's going to throw everything down the drain. Catherine said, she said, what are you going to do? We've been together for 15 years. They're just going to divorce me just like that. I said, yeah.

Toliy:

You guys brought up the example while I was gone or no?

Eldar:

No, I didn't. No, what the patrons, the paid patrons do. Are you kidding me? You know?, what do you tell them?

Eldar (3):

Tell what? Tell who, sorry.

Eldar:

So the person who has that attachment

All:

mm-hmm. Eldar: Right. Who's willing to continue to put up with abuse. Right. Or disagreements in their relationship. But they, at least they, their argument is like, Hey, but it's been 15 years, man. We had a long run. Like, we can't just drop this down now. Well, that,

Katherine:

that's not the argument, you know?

Eldar:

I know.

Mike:

It's part of it. It's part, it's, it's not

Katherine:

the argument. Yeah.

Mike:

Somebody gotta bend the knee. Like, what, what do you tell them?

Eldar:

Yeah, like, what do you tell them? Do you still, like, kind of like walk away, tell them, like, yeah, say bye? That's

Katherine:

basically what you're saying, is you say bye. Or

Eldar:

do you kind of like, nah, you should definitely fight for it, man. We have all these years together. Like, you know, do whatever it takes, you know? Like, for example, for your parents. They've been together for 30 years. What kind of relationship are they, right?

Toliy:

Yeah, not, uh, not a good one.

Eldar:

If your mom comes one day, but you're like, I can't do this anymore.

Eldar (3):

What do you tell her? Just, ah, next life. Just write this one out. Because some parents do, like, right? They, they,

Eldar:

they're in their 60s or whatever and they like, they decide to divorce. Like, that's it. And then you see these moms and dads are like, Dad doesn't know what the fuck to do. Mom's kind of doing them fucking yoga retreats and shit like that. You know, like, what the fuck is happening? You know what I mean? It happens. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But a lot of times, I think that argument for long term relationships is that. It's like, God, we did it so much.

Katherine:

It's the loss of the identity. It's the identity that's like, wait.

Mike:

That's the violation in the first place. Yeah. I think what Kat has just said, like the loss of identity, if even though you're in a relationship and you, you know, love each other or you don't love each other, you've been together for a long time, you are like, you have to have your own identity, but a lot of times people who get into relationships, they lose their identity, like,

Katherine (2):

you

Mike:

know, how many times we had like people like, Oh, I can't go, my wife, like, uh, won't allow me to go like, uh, to hang out or some other thing. Right. Some other excuse, like my wife doesn't allow me.

Mike (2):

Yeah.

Mike:

Like, to me it sounds kind of crazy, like, uh, If you're saying it that way, that means you have a gripe about it. You know, you're not like, uh, you're not just going to put her on blast, you know, in front of everybody, unless you have a certain feeling about it. So I think it's important to stay true to who you are and like, have your own character, like, you know, your own interests and your own, uh, life, but it's also, you know, you come together on the stuff that you, you know, do. So

Eldar:

you almost, you almost, what you're saying is that if it, if it's, is it the most important thing then to stand behind if you know the truth, stand behind it at all times at any cost? I think so. In general, yes,

Toliy:

for sure. But it's like, with existing emotional distress, it becomes more challenging to do that. And that's what the journey is, is to rid yourself of this, um, distress so that you can stand on those. Yes. Um, type of things, but, but yeah, I think it's, um, like, like you were like, It's, it's never too late, I think, to stand up for what's right, no matter what, even if you're like,

All:

you know, 30 years, 65, you should still, Oh my God.

Toliy:

Yeah, you're, you're, you're just starting to collect your, uh, yeah, your, your SSI and your benefits. So, you know, like that, that's just the beginning of that life. Right.

Mike:

You know, so, but the thing is the problem probably is that in, in a relationship, both people feel like they're standing on the truth. Right. If they both were staying on the truth, they

Eldar:

would, if the shit is opposite. If the two things are polar opposite, there has to be only one truth. Somebody got it right. So that's what I'm saying. Both people got it wrong. You know what I

Mike:

mean? There's no way that both people got it right. I don't think that's possible. I haven't, I can't think of a scenario where both people are right.

Eldar:

Yeah.

Mike:

You know, but somebody's wrong.

Eldar:

Especially if it's a, it's a logical mathematical equation. I mean,

Mike:

yeah, I mean, but in order for the one person to admit it, it might take a lot.

Eldar:

You know, but that's no doubt about it. That's no doubt about it. Catherine talks about, uh, rock bottom.

All:

Mm.

Eldar:

You know, you could have a personal rock bottom. You might need a personal rock bottom in order to humble yourself. Mm-hmm . And start filling yourself up with new, new identities or new identity. Or you might have a, a together rock bottom mm-hmm . Because there's a specific disagreement or an argument

All:

mm-hmm

Eldar:

That is not being seen eye to eye. Mm-hmm . You know. I think those are the ones that kind of put a fork in the road where it's like, okay, cool. Like this is where you stand and this is where I stand.

Katherine (2):

This is how you grow apart because. And this is how you grow apart. Different.

Eldar:

Correct.

Katherine (2):

Belief systems. Yeah.

Eldar:

And I think, you know, um, sooner or later that toxic relationship will be what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be, it's supposed to be water and oil. They're not supposed to mix. They don't mix together. It's toxic. And it's, it is what it is. Some people see it more clearly. Some people don't. You know?

Eldar (3):

Some people like to give chances, some people don't, you know, um, you have to see things for what they are. Yeah. Or try to do your best. But if you can recognize that,

Mike:

that, then you should try to, like, uh, try to push to see the truth. If you know that two people can not be right, right? Like if you're standing on your business and Kat's standing on her business or whatever it is.

Eldar:

I did

Mike:

not want to put my relationship on the line. No, I know that.

Eldar:

I didn't. I didn't want to get

Mike:

there. But did you have to like, But I had to. But you had to, but also. I'm not sure if you had to, um, or you, it was automatic, but did you have to check yourself to see, like, hey, am I staying on the truth or is this Catherine staying on the truth here? Like, in that moment,

Eldar:

yeah, absolutely. You did? Yeah, evaluated, like, hey. Absolutely.

Mike:

Okay. Yeah,

Eldar:

I don't, I don't think I, I'd like to miss on the, on the only one shot that I get.

Mike (2):

Yeah.

Eldar:

You know what I mean?

Mike (2):

Mm

Eldar:

hmm. Um, Yeah, but I also think that, like, I only did this handful of times and I'm not trying to do that. I'm not trying to be on the same page by pulling that kind of a card. You know what I mean? But I am willing to do it if it's necessary.

Mike:

No,

All:

I

Mike:

am.

Eldar:

You know?

All:

Mm

Toliy:

hmm. I was gonna say that, like, I feel like in any scenario, um, I think whoever is willing to put, to like, hold the court and put, like, you know, to go all in, um, I think it's difficult to, to not for sure be standing on the truth and to do that.

Mike:

No, but

Eldar:

Is it because, because, yeah, this is a very good, this is a very good point. You know why? Mm hmm. Because I don't want not, not be in a relationship with Catherine.

All:

Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Eldar:

But I don't want to be in I don't want to be in a relationship with Catherine in that moment this is what this is my mindset, right and um if I came to the conclusion that this is going to be the turning point, and this is who she is, and this is who I am. Those two things become water and oil in that moment, from that moment, and we no longer will gel. So yes, I am willing to take that route, to say like, okay, cool, like, this is completely different. We don't see this, this is very important, and I am willing to walk away from

Mike:

this. But I think you understand the next steps if you don't stand up for the truth. Yeah. Yeah. The relationship is finished regardless. Yes. This is your opportunity to, yeah, say, I guess I'm thinking about it's probably just to save it, stand for myself. Correct.

Toliy:

One thing also, as I feel like if, if, if you stand with the truth often enough times, um, one, I don't think it's, it doesn't feel like, um, as scary as it feels to others to do that, to put whatever it is on, on the line, but also it's like. If, if you've done like, if you're a person who has done that enough times to stand on the truth, um, I think you'll find yourself undefeated in those kinds of scenarios. And I don't think that like, you necessarily need to know like, what's next or like, what, what to like do. For example, I like, I don't want to use the word trust, but like, I think if you stand with the truth, like, Um, in, in, in pretty much all scenarios, like you, I, I think at least you will always like it, like it'll always come out good.

Eldar:

Yeah, that's interesting because I, obviously didn't have to do this like a thousand times with Catherine, thank God, but the two times that it did happen, I mean, uh, it turned out well and we grew stronger and better.

Toliy:

Yeah, and I'm not even talking about like strictly in relationship terms, like in all things, I don't think you can bring up standing up for the truth. It's

Eldar:

turning out bad.

Toliy:

Yeah, you cannot give me one example of like, where like this happens. Should you feel any, if you stood,

Eldar:

if you stood on truth, should you feel uneasy afterwards or no?

Toliy:

No, because that, that's what I'm saying is that I don't want to use the word trust, but it's almost like, no, but I think a truth like, like, like, If you've done that enough times, you already know ahead of time that the like truth does not lead you towards a lonely or a bad place. Like it will always lean you towards a good, prosperous, like good place. Yeah. So it's almost like you can, again, if we want to use the word trust, you, you, you can always trust that like when you stand on truth, Would you, would you give, would

Eldar:

you give this a, another word guarantee?

Toliy:

Yeah, yeah, you can

Eldar:

guarantee and there's not a lot of things you can guarantee except death and taxes, but she was just said

Mike:

But I think it's because maybe the way I'm thinking about it now Yes, there's three people in this situation or maybe not people but it's you it's Catherine and it's the truth

Mike (2):

Yeah,

Mike:

right when you stand with the truth, it's like you actually tapping into something else Yeah, something higher than you as an individual and Catherine. It's something else. That's above like You Human, whatever the physical, physical form, it's above the physical, it's above the physical form. And I think that's like a third, uh, entity, you know, that is divine or, Whatever. And it's like, uh, if you tap into it, you already won regardless of, um, yeah, like the, the result, you'd never be alone with the truth. Yeah. If you, if you have that belief system, if you buy it, bought into it and you believe it and you live your life in accordance to that, it's like, uh, you always have that. Well, that's very promising. That's very

Eldar:

nice. That's the way I thought about it. That's what totally said do philosophy or get fucked. Yeah. Very good point, baby. You following

Katherine:

Trying.

Eldar:

Trying.

Katherine:

I'm doing my best.

Eldar:

Yeah. Totally likes to be a little bit like complicated and stuff.

Katherine:

Okay. What do you

Toliy:

mean complicated? No.

Eldar:

Well, sometimes Catherine's like, Hey, you guys like gotta, you know, like make it simplified a little bit, you know, for the general public.

All (2):

The general public might be also confused about what we're talking about.

Eldar:

It doesn't matter. I don't think the details really matter. You know what I mean? I think that the gist of it is, it was in disagreement, you know, and that's it.

All:

Yeah.

Eldar:

You know, and we found, found our way and I think love prevailed, you know, um, and I feel much better, you know, by getting Catherine's blessing, you know, she helped cured me

All:

and

Eldar:

I'm sleeping at night again, you know what I mean? And that's that thing that was bothering us is no longer primary, it's secondary and that's how

Eldar (3):

it's supposed to

Eldar:

be.

Eldar (3):

You know what I mean? Yeah. Okay. So yeah. Well, I mean, we said a lot.

All (2):

Yeah.

Eldar (3):

Toxic relationships.

Eldar:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Too easy or no, totally. It feels that way. It feels that way.

All:

Don't

Katherine:

say that after this whole conversation we've had, too easy. Everything is too

Mike:

easy when, when you're not in it. That is a valid point. That's a valid point.

Eldar:

I guess it's the opposite of what I just said about the truth. Guys, but like the most, the coolest thing is, right? The coolest thing is, like Toli said. The opportunity to disagree is the coolest thing go out there in the world and fucking disagree Go out there and have these disagreements and live this shit out and see and test yourself You know what? I mean fall get back up. Try again fall get back up Try again, and you try, you know up until you finally figured it out So then you can stand with the truth You know who you are and your shit don't stink for yourself. And then you like yourself, you build yourself. The confidence is there. Everything is there to then enjoy and have fun in life.

Eldar (3):

Sounds very simple. I mean, so maybe it's a philosophy. It's a philosophers. Maybe it's something.

Toliy:

Yes. Yeah, it's important. And, and like, because, uh, like maybe it's difficult with the, I don't know, like type of approach. Right. Because it's like, like, I'm almost like thinking like, like in the different things you have. Like actually take a side but actually take it. Yeah, you know and stand on it and stand on it Yeah, right because if you take it and you actually stand on it and you're not in the in between land Yeah, right, which would the people people are yeah in in the in between land, right? Then you can at least be wrong.

Eldar:

Yes. And, uh, but the thing is, yes, I agree with you and it takes maybe balls of courage at least, right. To be wrong because the wrong will provide pain and a lot of people avoid that, right. Because quickly, if you find out that you're wrong, some people will tell you, you realize this, right. What's going to be called, uh, probably you have to apologize, right. Or you'll have to do something, change something. Well, look, and that's again, humbling. Yeah.

Toliy:

Alert. With enough pain and conscious suffering, you will build the thick skin required that you can have your hearing aid to the truth.

Eldar:

Yes, this is true. Tony once said in one of the early podcasts, he said, thick skin

Eldar (3):

is your hearing aid to the truth. So are we saying anything guys? No, not really.

Toliy:

Probably not. I would say to most people.

Eldar (3):

Yeah, that's pretty fucked up. So what are we doing this?

Eldar:

Why are we recording it?

All (2):

That's a good question.

Eldar:

I mean, we've been doing this for a very long time without recording it You know what? I mean? I feel like it's almost a duty I think that you know this this attempt at putting it out there into the world to exist It's the attempt of going back to the cave on a public scale. Yeah, not just our immediate friends, right?

Toliy:

Either that or it's, uh, or it's ego driven Oh my

Mike:

God. What? Ego driven charity work? This is what he's calling it. Is that what he's calling it?

Eldar:

No. Yeah. That's fucked up, man.

Eldar (2):

I've heard this somewhere before.

Mike:

Do you recognize the, uh,

Toliy:

Who are you trying to prove wrong out there?

Eldar:

Listen, I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, but you're trying to summon someone, someone very specific. Ego driven charity work. Wow. All right. Well, if that's the case, then. What would somebody, if it's ego driven and it's charity work, what would somebody with that kind of intent or motivation say next? Actually,

Katherine:

before you finish that It's um, that's an oxymoron, like, they don't go. Ego driven and charity work, like, how would that be? Like, you wouldn't be doing something selfless if the ego was in it. It negates itself, yeah, it negates itself,

Eldar:

100%, yeah, I agree with you. I think the person probably who came up with this saying didn't think it through. Or maybe he did think it through and said it in such a way for it to be spicy, but not, uh, because he spicy, but not, you know what I mean? And he

Toliy:

could

Eldar:

color, but not in taste. Yeah. And I think that that, yes, in color, but not in taste. Yeah.

Toliy:

Like it looks spicy, but it doesn't taste spicy. It doesn't

Eldar:

bite. No, it doesn't bite. Um, I think that individual who came up with this probably stands in that between land that totally talks about where take

Eldar (3):

aside, which one is it? As a charity work. Or is it,

All (2):

or is it ego?

Eldar (3):

Or is it ego?

All (2):

Which one?

Eldar (3):

Take it. Right. Because if you did, you, you either be wrong, you'll be corrected.

Eldar:

You'll be, you know, life will, reality will, uh, act in accordance of that. Right.

Katherine:

Life teaches. Life teaches. Right. If you're wrong, but if you're right, yeah,

Eldar:

then, then you're right. Then you feel good. You're standing with the truth and you don't feel

Eldar (3):

uneasy. Right. So, but maybe you need more pain. Therefore you want to keep coming back to a toxic relationship. So then if that's the case and if that's the type of charity

Eldar:

work, I'm open to it. If I need to do more ego driven charity work in order for you to raise awareness about your pain, I can do it. I think I'm very good at it too. I like having fun at the expense of other people.

Mike:

That's true. But also, I think it's um, the reason to come back to the toxic relationship, is that glimpse of like when I was saying 1%, that 1%, it's still like, you still know, you know, whatever like, uh, 99. 9 percent let's just say, of your time, When you think about a specific scenario, it's driven by ego. You're thinking about it with your own arrogant kind of outlook on it. Like, Oh, this guy's an asshole. This guy's this, this guy's that. And then the 1%, but you're like, wait, but he actually was a good friend. He did have my back. He was there for me when I needed him. He is actually in accordance with the truth all the time. He behaves this way. Even though, even though he kept getting abused all the time. The thing is, Um, how many, how many black

Eldar:

eyes can you put up with, man?

Mike:

I don't know. I think it's that, it's that thing of like, uh, you think you're, you're, um, somebody's hitting you from behind. Right. But then you look in the mirror and you see, actually, you're the one who's hitting yourself with the stick. It's hard to say, like, actually, I'm the one who's doing this, taking accountability and saying like, Oh, actually it's not somebody else doing this to me, I'm doing this to myself because I'm not like, uh, wanting to see the truth and I want to keep being. Driven by the ego or pride or arrogance, whatever it is that you want to be driven by. So I think it's hard to turn the lights on to see that that's what's happening. But in those glimpses, you know that point one percent whatever it's undeniable too, you know Like you could throw a fit as long as you want I mean Yeah, if

Eldar:

toli's theory sticks with the with the fact that if you stand with the truth, you're gonna be good You will not have any hesitations, any uneasiness, anything, right? Then that equation that just tells you that like, yeah, that 1%, if you do have that, then you're, you're, you're, uh, conflicted.

All:

Yeah.

Eldar:

That's a very conflicted situation. But I also think

Toliy:

that like, um, having fun at someone else's expense is a, uh, is an in the moment reward for having your shit together.

Eldar:

Wow. And we can talk about it on the next episode. Mike, remember this. Having fun at other people's expenses is a reward for having your shit together. Oh my god. Try not to tune in.

Mike:

Yeah.

Eldar:

Alright guys, thank you so much. This was great.