152. Is there such thing as a "rock bottom"?

Can understanding the true nature of rock bottom help in personal growth?

In this podcast episode of Dennis Rocks, the hosts delve into the concept of 'hitting rock bottom' and challenge its conventional understanding. They discuss the critical role of humility, the illusion of immediate recovery, and the necessity of sustained effort and learning for genuine personal growth. Through examining societal perceptions, personal anecdotes, and philosophical insights, the episode underscores the importance of seeing reality as it is and aligning actions accordingly. Listeners are encouraged to embrace vulnerability and persistent humility as key tools for achieving a truly fulfilling life.

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Chapters

• 0:09 Defining Rock Bottom
• 2:06 Characteristics Leading to Rock Bottom
• 6:38 The Illusion of Rock Bottom
• 8:48 Rebuilding After Hitting Rock Bottom
• 12:53 The Temporary Nature of Rock Bottom
• 15:04 The Role of Humility and Learning
• 18:15 The Importance of Self-Reflection
• 24:10 The Influence of External Validation
• 45:13 The Role of Truth in Personal Development
• 47:57 The Death of Trust and Rock Bottom
• 48:36 Philosophers and the Importance of Words
• 51:44 Pain, Pleasure, and Self-Assessment
• 53:50 The Illusion of Progress
• 56:21 The Role of Humility in Learning
• 1:06:31 Sharing Perspectives and Building Connections
• 1:16:51 The Necessity of Humility for Growth
• 1:22:25 Final Thoughts on Humility and Learning

Transcript

[00:00:00] Eldar: On this week's episode, 

[00:00:02] Toliy: they hit rock bottom on something or like, have you hit rock bottom? And like, it's very difficult for me, at least to like, to understand. OK, so if it's difficult, why don't we try to define what what it is? That's what like separates the people oftentimes who are about it and who are not.

Because if everybody fully knew of everything. Right. And the exact steps to get there, they would never need to be humble enough to learn. 

[00:00:25] Eldar: Don't just pick yourself up and keep going. Sit with it, you know, and examine exactly what you have here. Because you might actually be on to something right and then build on that but unfortunately a lot of times people trick themselves

All right, guys Welcome to yet again another podcast of Dennis rocks today. We have a special guest. Okay He came from far away, but he's not gonna speak Because it's special. That's why he's a special guest. All right, so I think today's podcast should only be probably on a phenomena called hitting the rock bottom.

I know we touched base on it a little bit a while ago, but I think that, um, it might be an important factor to discuss and help people understand what it, what does it mean to actually hit the rock bottom and why sometimes. Right. We think that we did hit the rock bottom, but we actually nowhere near it.

Right. I think we came across a lot of people in our life, right? Mike, where they're like, Oh, I'm struggling with this. I'm suffering with this. This is bad. That is bad. Right. But they still do certain things where they don't, you know, they behave a certain way. It doesn't show like they're on rock bottom.

Right. Or it seems like there's maybe a little bit lower that they can go before, right? They start having realizations in order to have changed something about their life. Right. And have a better life for themselves and start at least building a new life for themselves. So let's number one, maybe help us understand the importance of this rock bottom thing.

Maybe we can start by defining what this means, the importance of this rock bottom. And then what do you do when you actually hit it? 

[00:02:17] Mike: Uh, 

[00:02:20] Eldar: because I think it's, uh, maybe essential when it comes to, um, individuals that are struggling individuals that have maybe big egos or pride, right? Uh, people that, um, want to control everything in their lives, right?

For a very long time, you can try to, you know, have this illusion, quote unquote, that you have control over your life, but the truth of the matter is. You know, when you start examining things about your life and your, your, your happiness, you quickly find out that you, you know, everything you've been doing, the way you've been doing it is actually not leading you to be happy.

Right. So I think there's a lot of characteristics that can lead you towards rock bottom. Right. But when you're almost there, you sometimes don't even want to let go of some of the qualities that actually, that are getting you there. Right. You almost feel like they're your protections. Right. Or they might actually be probably the worst thing for you, you know, that if you start letting go of those things, right.

And finally, you know, allow new teachings, new knowledge, right. New perspectives about your life to come into you. You can start seeing the world differently, or maybe you start seeing yourself differently. Right. But it takes some, some level of letting go, you know, in that moment. But it's very hard to do.

[00:03:49] Mike: So do we think that like a rock bottom is the actual place, like actual, not like a physical place, obviously, but yeah, it's like, um,

it's something that like, um, it's universally accepted. Like, uh, I think that exists or just like a state of mind that totally help us with the definition of rock bottom. If you can. 

[00:04:12] Toliy: Yeah. So you have a hard time with this rock bottom thing to begin with though, because I feel like I, like, I guess like I understand that I understand the concept of it.

I just don't ever see. Like, um, like when it happens and examples of it happening, like in like actual like reality, because I feel like there's, um, there's points in people's lives where maybe like things are not going their way or they experience, um, like, um, too much ongoing pain where like, you could call it the rock bottom, for example, but it's like for the moment and maybe they're willing to listen or to like, you know, Let it out.

Right. Or like, you know, do something, but, um, I haven't seen like someone like, okay. Like they hit rock bottom on X topic and now like they have like the, um, the stamina and now they're like, like one, one, one, they have extended stamina to like, to, uh, Repeatedly come back for like lessons and for knowledge and for learnings, right?

Like just in, in general. And then two, they're, um, humble enough to take that information and then to actually like, um, Yeah. Just like start like learn, uh, learning it and asking questions and then applying it and then going back, like on a feedback loop and actually like doing it in that kind of way. 

[00:05:50] Mike: But are you like the way you're describing, it sounds like, um, like an advanced approach.

Like, uh, I don't think the rock bottom or learning or life in general is a linear thing, right? Like you don't just hit the rock bottom and then now it's all up from there. 

[00:06:05] Toliy: No, for sure. That's what I'm saying. That's why I don't understand the concept of the rock bottom to begin with. Right? Because like, to me, a rock bottom, like, like, if we want to say like what the expression means, right?

It's like, I guess if we picture in our head, we probably picture a heavy rock being dropped down into maybe the ocean, right? And like landing somewhere finally found the bottom. It found the bottom, right? And there's nothing below it. Like, it's just like that. That's. That's where it is and there's no going below that right?

[00:06:34] Mike: Yeah 

[00:06:35] Toliy: only up. Oh, yeah only up, right? um so so like that's what i'm saying is that I I agree with you on that which is why like I don't understand this concept of rock bottom because people say all the time like they hit rock bottom on something or like have you hit rock bottom and like I think it's just like a Like, it's very difficult for me at least to, like, to understand.

[00:06:57] Eldar: Okay, so if it's difficult, why don't we try to define what it is? Okay, let's try to imagine some of the rock bottoms that we can, you know, actually play around with here. Go ahead, Mike, sorry. No, you were saying I'm Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say that, you know, uh, how about an individual, I'm not gonna say who, Or if anyone, if 

[00:07:18] Mike: you're not going to save it in this room, 

[00:07:20] Eldar: I'm not going to say that.

Okay. Right. Um, who has maybe potential is going towards rock bottom or reaching a rock bottom or hitting rock bottom. Right. Has five as the four most important things in their life that is that they define themselves as, you know, that those things define them to be successful, happy, accomplished in all those things.

Right. Let's, let's put those on the table. Number one career. Okay. Number two, love life. Number three, friendship. Is that a good one? Um, give me one. Self image. 

[00:08:04] Mike: Okay. 

[00:08:05] Eldar: I guess. Self esteem, self image, right? Imagine those four things are the most important thing for this individual. And they structure their whole life around those four things.

Okay?

Rock bottom, or how I can picture it, right, is pretty much in each of these four fields, right, this individual kind of teeters up and down. Throughout life, right? Career. 

[00:08:30] Toliy: Okay. 

[00:08:30] Eldar: One day, they have a job. Next day, they don't. One day, they have a job. Next day, they don't. One day, they go to school to get to that career.

Next day, they don't, right? It's teetering constantly, right? Up and down, up and down, right? Rock bottom to me, right, would be in those four things, those four areas, right? You, to a degree, have convinced yourself or finally told yourself that you failed. You didn't get the job or career that you wanted, right?

So you, you teetered all the way down. Uh, your girlfriend dumped you and you didn't get the girl that you wanted. Mm-hmm . Um, what's the other ones? Friendship. You know, your friends turned away and said, we don't want to have anything to do with you. You're loser. Mm-hmm . And the last one is self-esteem.

Where it's like you look at yourself, ah, fuck me, you know, I'm ugly, I'm, I'm fat, you know, uh, I'm a loser. 

[00:09:20] Mike: Mm-hmm . 

[00:09:20] Eldar: All those four things have teetered all the way to the bottom right At your scale of controlling them when you can. Or when you tried, and you're finally like, fuck, I feel terrible. That's what I'm picturing.

Well, also, as I was saying that, I'm sorry, I can bring up an example that is easier, maybe, right? Um, our favorite movie, Peaceful Warrior, right? And Joe, if you're listening to this, you might have to stop listening to what I'm about to say, because I'm going to give certain things away, because you need to watch the movie.

Um, You'll remember how he hit rock bottom, right? Top of his class in olympics ready to to change the world with his You know skills right beds any girl he wants hottest girls every night in his bed You know what? I mean? What else did he say that he was like i'm the man, you know about? Right all those things that he had right in the palm of his hand that he's controlling that he's like Yo, this is this is my stuff in a flash of a second right of an accident, right of what happens to him I'm gonna give it all the way away.

He loses it all. It's rock bottom Yeah But see like all that it's all the dreams all the things all the aspirations are no longer can be achievable pretty much Right and so so quote unquote and being no longer in his control to get them where he understood She needed to be Yeah. 

[00:10:43] Mike: I was thinking about a different scene for the rug bottom.

[00:10:45] Eldar: Oh, 

[00:10:46] Mike: sorry. 

[00:10:46] Toliy: Yeah. So, um, like for example, in that instance, I think it's a little bit different when, um, like you've reached something or maybe you're on the impression that like, yeah, like if, if like you're, you're depicting in that example scenario where someone has gotten something. Right. Or they go, 

[00:11:09] Eldar: not necessarily gotten them, but.

Tutoring them to a degree where they understand that they're quote unquote successful. This does not mean that having a girl, a new hot girl in your bed every night is success. This is his impression of what success is. No, 

[00:11:23] Toliy: no, sure, sure. I'm saying that like you're depicting a scenario where someone has something and then it's taken away from them, you know, for X, Y, and Z reasons.

I think in a majority of these types of situations that people have, they're They're like trying to to get somewhere trying to do to do something and they more have like repetitive like failures and they don't acknowledge that they're like It usually is not like they're like, you know, like if you want to bring it to a different example I don't know like they have Uh, like, you know, the best house, the best job, the best car.

And then like, for example, stuff is like, you know, something happens and things, and all these things are taken care of them, taken away. And now they're like on the street or something, or like they're, I don't know, in some really homeless scenario or homeless. Right. Yeah. So like that, like I, like I can have a conversation from there and like, understand that.

Because it's different when you have something and then that that's something I think is taking care of where I think taking away Sorry, where the majority of people are trying to get to some place that they have not like gotten to and along the way They don't acknowledge like they like those types of people Usually like one don't give themselves any kind of credit during their journey like anything short of what they're envisioning in their head It is like failure, which is an attachment to the final goal.

Yes, correct, right? So like those to me are different are difficult to talk about the rock bottoms because like those scenarios are not I'm happening for them, you know So like that that's my main argument for like the rock bottom things that like it's different when everything is taken away from you in an example like in any example that you Portray versus like you have the feeling that you have not achieved anything yet

[00:13:19] Eldar: Mike do you understand what he's saying?

[00:13:23] Mike: No, but I have a completely different thing about the rock bottom, especially like specifically with that movie. Okay. I think the rock bottom was actually, uh, in the clock tower scene. Oh yeah. 

[00:13:38] Toliy: That's something different. 

[00:13:39] Eldar: No, no, no, no. It's. My rock bottom or my definition of it was based on the perception, perception of individual who's controlling very specific Quote unquote outcomes at that moment at that moment for themselves in that life There can be completely under the wrong impression Right, like I said the girls that he's getting hot girls every night in his bed does not necessarily mean that is what right?

Just like Socrates in that movie said, right? He said, okay, you have all the hot girls, you're the top of your class, you crazy athlete, you look good, you smell good, whatever. Why can't you sleep at night? Right. He asked him this, right? So if you all have all your shit together, what is wrong with you? Right.

So that's just shows that the perception of his understanding of what he's chasing a success to be wrong. Nonetheless, it is an active reality that an individual is experiencing. So therefore any. Drop in those things that he believes in is their rock bottom

and another rock bottom is what you're talking about, right? That's next level. I think No,

[00:14:51] Mike: no, no. 

[00:14:54] Eldar: Is that a good definition of rock bottom then? Well, like, 

[00:14:58] Toliy: yeah, but it's like, Oh, it's just an illusion. Well, yeah, that, that's how I view it more. It's like a temporary state because like, again, like if we're, if, if we're actually using the metaphor the way that it's supposed to be is like, you're at the bottom and now like you're humble, you're willing to listen, this, this, this and that, and now you have this, like.

Uh, extended stamina to, to, to come to the teacher and ask, and ask for continuous help. It's like, you've reached the bottom, right? But I think in any of those issues and any of those times where you reach it, it's usually a temporary state that if you do get like some help or you do go to it, you do come to a teacher, right?

And, and you are able to get something, well, now you're not at the bottom anymore. Right? So now I think comes like the life test about like, Um, Hey, like, do you really want this? Like, do you, do you really want what you're talking about? Like allegedly saying, right? Like some people and that, and yeah, 

[00:16:04] Eldar: we'll say, I don't want to make decisions anymore.

[00:16:09] Mike: You 

[00:16:09] Eldar: know what I'm saying? I want somebody else to make decisions for me. Right. Right. I trust all the people to make the decisions for me, but a lot of times, right. At least in our examples that the people that we came across, right. 

[00:16:22] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:16:22] Eldar: When they say that, right. Paris, for example. Right. We know that this is not true because as soon as we start making examples of what needs to be done actually and how It needs to be done, but I'm not doing that.

[00:16:34] Mike: Mm hmm. Yeah, 

[00:16:36] Eldar: I didn't think about it like that. 

[00:16:37] Mike: Mm hmm 

[00:16:38] Eldar: What impression are they on there? [00:16:40] What what impression where they can say, you know, what? I'm going to do those things that people are going to tell me and I'm going to be okay with them. Like, why do they have almost a, their own program as to what is okay and not okay to do when they say those things where I'm going to say, I'm just going to not have a say anymore.

I'm just going to do what you guys tell me to do. 

[00:17:00] Mike: Cause that, that, that moment, it's a, it's a fake rock bottom. They don't actually believe it. This is what I'm trying to get to. But what it's um, but what's happening is they feel like, um. They feel like they're helpless maybe in the moment, but they don't actually believe that they don't actually believe it.

They don't know that they know what, 

[00:17:19] Eldar: why is it being said that way though? Why is that being said in such a way anyway? Why do people still say that?

[00:17:29] Mike: I don't know. It's a good question 

[00:17:30] Toliy: Yeah, well, well one I think that like the person who's saying that they don't actually um, they don't actually know Themselves and like what attachments that they have to the things right and only when you say something like that Um, can maybe somebody help you bring out all of those attachments because they're going to prove that, like, what you're saying is not true because of X, Y, and Z.

Well, okay, well, now you're going to dress like this. Well, no, no, no, I can't look like that. Yeah, you're going to see that, like, they have attachment of as to how, how they look, yeah, how they look and what other people think about them. Right? Yeah. Or maybe you asked him to do this and he's like, no, no, no, that's probably not a good thing for how can we get somebody to sit down?

Right? Yeah, right. So, um, like those types of scenarios I think prove to the person that like, yeah, like they're like what they're saying is not really true because of the attachments and the understandings that they have. 

[00:18:29] Eldar: So are attachments that this individual who quotes quote unquote hits rock bottom is an indicator that it's not a rock bottom after all?

[00:18:38] Mike: The person who hits rock bottom I don't think they actually can know that the head rock bottom. And like, that's a 

[00:18:43] Eldar: different, that's a, that's an interesting thing. 

[00:18:46] Mike: Well, yeah, it's not like you're going to say, oh yeah, I had rock bottom. You would like, if you, if you, like, you would be moving different, like you wouldn't, you wouldn't say it like, um, just like you wouldn't be going around saying, yeah, I had rock bottom.

I don't think you will carry the energy. You will be more asking questions and saying, help me out. So 

[00:19:07] Eldar: is it true rock bottom? Totally. Let's just talk about a true rock bottom. Let's not talk about the false one, the false positive rock bottom. If the true, does the true rock bottom intrinsically carry a level of humility?

Which Mike is saying almost saying, look, that individual will actually carry themselves in such a way where they actually did hit rock bottom. They're trying to let go of their attachments, their previous attachments and actually surrender themselves. 

[00:19:31] Mike: Yeah, no, they wouldn't be trying. They will be actually living.

Yeah. The thing about rock bottom, it's again, one of my favorite things, I guess, recently is using that word paradox where it's actually not rock bottom. It's like, uh, I don't know the word for it, but. You actually, now you're at the, not at the top, I don't want to say, but now you're actually at a point where you're even better, you're much higher than when you started, because what happened is in that moment of hitting the true rock bottom, is you actually fired yourself, but you didn't say, yo, I fired you, man, I don't trust myself, man, I'm really done.

You actually did, but you don't, I don't know if you acknowledge that and say, yeah, I fired myself. I'm not competent. That is the depiction in the movie, right? Yeah, it's very played out. Like there's a thing. Yeah, throw it, throw it in real life. It's not like that. I think there's something internally that happens that you start, that you actually fired that person within you, that identity, that persona, whatever, that's been guiding you the wrong way.

You fired them. 

[00:20:35] Eldar: That's it. We got rid of them. 

[00:20:36] Mike: And now, you actually have a chance to ask questions and to rebuild your shit. 

[00:20:43] Toliy: Yeah, still, I, I, I still have an issue with the rock bottom. It's like, it's like, we're trying to Is, is he onto something? Well, you're saying let's talk about the real rock bottom, but I still think that that is such like a temporary short lived state, but nonetheless, it's a moment in time.

No, well, it's, it's a moment in time, but it's still like, I think it's still being depicted in the wrong way because, um, I think in, uh, it may be like human nature or. Um, general way of acting, right? Um, a natural progression of events. And I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll just like, um, say it like one, one, one particular way to give like the metaphor of it, right?

Like, um, uh, if you're at this rock bottom and you're in need of help, sure. I don't think that you fire anybody. I think that you send whoever's in charge home for the day, for the day, for the day, or maybe just for the hour, for the minute or however long it is. That's right. You don't get rid of them. No.

And I think what happens is, um, you can put yourself in a position where you can now listen and learn, ask some questions, be extremely humble, right? And go through that whole Process for that period of time, however long it lasts, right? Naturally, you were at like a low, bad place, right? And naturally, now with this newfound information, you are under the impression that you are no longer at that place, that it's one thing.

So like, um, if you just went from, let's just say zero, this rock bottom, like out of a hundred, right? You may have gotten to 5. Internally, you feel like you've gotten to 30, though, that that's always how it feels, right? Yeah, and then so now you've actually gotten you physically have gone from 0 to 0. 5 like that really happened But you think you went from 0 to 30, right?

But naturally because you're actually at 0. 5 and then you actually feel that you're at 30, for example Oh, as if yeah or or act as if you're just like Realistically in a better place. You're no longer in that rock bottom. So now what happens from every moment here from, from, from then on, right? It's either you, um, have that same energy and you, um, like, um, you, you kind of go through that internal battle when that person comes back to work the next day, right?

The personnel was in charge that you sent home for that day. That person's going to come back. Right, because there's no way that they've been fired just like forever. No, no chance, right? They're gonna come come back and then it comes down to like the test of whether like You're gonna continue each day to employ that person based on what happens but naturally that person does come back to work and they think everything is back to normal and it's up to you as an individual to Be like vigilant.

Yeah vigilant About monitoring this person and monitoring what's going on. Right. But what usually happens, time happens and naturally a better state happens. So you're no longer at that rock bottom. And that's a fact, right? That, that, that's just the reality of it. Right. 

[00:24:12] Eldar: You still go, when you go home, you still look in the mirror.

You want to make sure your hair still looks good. 

[00:24:17] Toliy: All kinds of things, right? So generally, generally the person's perception is that like they've grown way further than where they actually have, but they also have physically like grown. They're actually in a better place. So it's a little bit confusing because, because of that, right?

Like it's, it's, it's like an injury. Sure. First night, it's bad. Is it better the second day? Yeah. Is it better the third day? Yep. Is it better the fourth day? Now the way that you felt on that day of the injury as to what thoughts or actions or yeah I'm gonna say that you're gonna take I'm gonna stretch.

I'm gonna do things is the I'm gonna lose weight Yeah, I'm gonna eat eat, right? I'm gonna educate myself as so like what do I need to do to not put myself in that kind of position day five? You've got about everything day five. You forgot about everything right? Yeah, because in those kinds of ways like the body is like self healing without Mental work needing to like to happen, right?

Like your sprain is going to, it's going to get better. Okay. Just natural. 

[00:25:19] Eldar: Yeah. Sorry. I have to cut you off, but I have to put this in here. So we don't forget what he's saying that almost with this little thing, it almost came to me where a lot of times, right? Our body or maybe even our mind has the ability to almost self heal, right?

If we get out of its way, okay. I think a mental state can also be achieved to a degree where you can get out of your way a little bit, give it a little bit of a break, and then maybe you get a different perspective where self healing can occur as well. So go ahead. 

[00:25:50] Toliy: Yeah, and for example, like, in my example, right, if you want to say it, like, I was playing basketball, being, like, out of shape and overweight for a while.

Yeah. And what was going on was that Anytime I got injured or felt something, I would always share these like little things like yeah, yeah, it's time to lose weight, time to do this, I gotta stretch, can't go as hard, stuff like that, but then my internal competitive spirits is like, oh, you think that you're good?

Alright, now I'm gonna push myself like, way over as to where I'm supposed to be at, I'm supposed to be like lightly playing, you know, half court probably and just like, Taking it easy. Right. But like if we want to do it in, in, um, in like, like an example in that kind of way or, or like in any life scenario, what happens is that, um, like if that, if, if, if that like in injury happens or like something happens where you get hurt and you have this kind of thing and you actually then do nothing about 

[00:26:47] Mike: it, 

[00:26:49] Toliy: whatever that teacher is, whether it's a physical person or like a life thing.

And it's like, yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's almost like when someone comes to you and says, like, hey, I have an issue, I need help, right? You give them the thing and they're like, oh, thanks for the help, like, that really changed my life, like, right? And then internally, it's like, not, not that you necessarily, like, laugh at them, but like, um, you can laugh at the fact that this person now thinks that, like, 

[00:27:14] Mike: Mm 

[00:27:14] Toliy: hmm.

This is over, right? Like, they've actually done something, they've changed something, and just magically, like, something is now better. And that metaphorical laugh happened. So the person that went from 0 to 0. 5 and feels that they're at 30, the, like, I don't know if you want to say God or life or whoever it is, is laughing at them, right?

Because what happened is that that same person that was at 0, extremely hurt, Is no longer as humble and no longer willing to learn, and no longer willing to do whatever it what, whatever it takes. They, they were desperate at that moment. I think when someone's desperate, either life or a teacher will always help you, like in general.

[00:27:58] Mike: Mm-hmm . 

[00:27:58] Toliy: But you can't keep that desperate state long enough for long because you naturally get better. You naturally feel better. So what's your suggestion? 

[00:28:06] Eldar: What the fuck? You're just like, 

[00:28:06] Toliy: well, that's saying all this negative shit. Well, no, what I'm saying is that the test happens on. Go ahead. I'll tell you what you're about to say.

Yeah. The, um, the test happens is that the real learning, the actual real benefit that you can have is when things go a bit better and you feel them right. And then it comes down, then it comes down to, are you about that life? And you know, 

[00:28:32] Eldar: we just said. You know, we just channeled Socrates said, if you running, right.

And one day you stumble upon the truth, you fall down, you're like, Oh shit, you know what I mean? You came across some truth. Don't just pick yourself up and keep going. Slow down a little bit. Examine what you came across. You know what I mean? Because there's some, there might be something there. I think this is what he's trying to describe.

[00:28:59] Toliy: Learning, true learn, learning cannot happen when you're at your lowest because you're a desperate person willing to do anything. But when you're above that state, You're a cheap hooker. Yeah. That's when you get that like internal challenge that's like set out for, for, for you and it goes to you. Hey man, like two weeks ago you said that like life's over, like everything's bad.

Oh, you got a little bit of money. Now you have a job, you know, you have this or this and that. Do you, do you still want to learn? Right? I don't, I don't, I have no time for that. And the internal feeling of that person, like, that person might say yes if you ask him that question. Yeah, that's a lie. But if you don't ask him that question, when life asks him that question, he says, Later.

I'm good. 

[00:29:44] Eldar: Maybe later. 

[00:29:45] Toliy: Maybe later, yeah. 

[00:29:46] Eldar: I have no time for this right now. So 

[00:29:47] Toliy: like, to, to, to me. So what, what are you, what are you suggesting? Well, I'm saying that like, Um, real learning only happens when you break through that desperate. Absolute like low bad state because anything before it it's it's all an illusion It's all fake like you you you're not gonna have that kind of same energy when things go a little bit better and it's just like To me, it's like a, um, transaction, right?

Like you go to the bank and you want to withdraw money. Right. Or this case, like you want to withdraw learnings, like life lessons, good things, right. Knowledge. Right. And the bank's always says, Hey, show me your ID or show me like your credentials. Right. And those credentials is like. You being humble and you being about that life showing that you actually want to learn they see it you have it They give it to you.

You don't have that you're shuffling through looking for your wallet You don't have that ID you ain't getting shit and that's what happens on a cycle over and over again over and over again You know so like that that's why I have a hard time with that rock bottom and and with the firing because We all prove it that you know when when it's real bad Everyone's fired, but that staff comes in the next day or the day after, but they're coming back in, right?

And then it's on you to say like, Hey, everything's not that bad, but I'm still going to carry that same energy as to when it was that bad. And, and, and that will show whether you're humble enough to learn. Yeah. If you have character like that, that is like the general life tests on anything, 

[00:31:28] Eldar: you 

[00:31:28] Toliy: know? 

[00:31:29] Eldar: Wow.

If anybody, if nobody understood what he just said, it's because you're mad dumb. There's no other way to put it. Yeah. I'm sorry, there's a lot of listeners out there a lot, 

[00:31:48] Toliy: you know, and I'm, and I'm only saying in that way because I was, I was that same person, desperate, the desperate person, 

[00:31:56] Eldar: you know, because a lot of people are fucking employing this fucking strategy right now 

[00:32:00] Toliy: out there and you just fucking, 

[00:32:01] Eldar: you just fucking, you cut them off, man, 

[00:32:04] Toliy: yeah, the, the, the desperate person asking for help and then when, and then when the person that can help, Like, whatever that is, it doesn't need to be a physical person, it's just life, right?

Right, it's just life in general. They don't, like It'll always remember like, Hey man, do you, do you still feel that same way? 

[00:32:22] Mike: Hmm, 

[00:32:23] Toliy: and I think we can all honestly look back at old times where like we weren't about that life where we said Not so how 

[00:32:31] Mike: do you differentiate between the time that you were about that life?

It was a different treatment out there 

[00:32:36] Toliy: Well the way when you were about that life is when you actually added acted in Accordance like if you're acting in that similar like willing to listen humble way when you're extremely desperate So now when you have some energy to actually do something about it, that's when you can actually.

Change some shit, but who who acts like that? 

[00:33:00] Eldar: He's saying that the rock bottom or hitting it is almost dead. Like it doesn't doesn't really mean not much 

[00:33:07] Toliy: Yeah, it's like if if you could picture like in any movie or any scenario when a crackhead has no crack He's gonna scour the streets, right? Dick 

[00:33:17] Eldar: yeah for 

[00:33:17] Toliy: fucking 

[00:33:18] Eldar: rock.

[00:33:18] Toliy: Yeah, like you're willing to [00:33:20] do anything gonna ask everybody then you get some And however long that lasts, are you going to be vigilant about trying to get some more for the next 

[00:33:26] Eldar: time? 

[00:33:26] Toliy: No, you're going to wait until you're out again, and go back to desperation state. Yeah. Right? That's the same thing that happens for people who ask for help.

Over and over again. 

[00:33:34] Eldar: You just called every 99. 9999 percent of population crackheads. 100%. I like it.

Mm hmm. You have a problem with this? 

[00:33:48] Mike: Yeah, I'm trying to understand it, so, I mean, I understand what he's saying, but I'm not sure. I think he's, 

[00:33:52] Toliy: he's onto 

[00:33:52] Mike: something. Yeah, I'm not sure. Like, I haven't, uh. 

[00:33:55] Toliy: Yeah, I've proven to myself over and over again that I was that, that, that like, I'm that same person in those same scenarios when things are real low or real bad.

And then I'm that person that like says like, not now when things are better and that to, to, to, to me is like, when I observed that in myself or when, or like when I observed that in others, right, it, it, it shows to me what like human behavior pretty much is right now and how, and how it works. But I think.

Um, No, 

[00:34:29] Eldar: no, no. I think you're spot on when it comes to these things, right? A lot of times we'll just do those goals. We'll say, you know what? If I get married, I'll quit smoking. I'll lose the weight. I'll do this. I'll do that, right? We start setting these conditions that as soon as we hit these milestones that we created in our heads, we're gonna be better.

We're gonna do stuff. You know what I mean? Yeah. But the truth of the matter is, right, you got married, you got fatter. 

[00:34:53] Mike: No, that's for sure. 

[00:34:55] Eldar: You know what I mean? And that's what he's talking about. I think what he's talking about is that it's an illusion. The rock bottom in your behavior, that you actually are at rock bottom, or you're telling yourself, like, that's it, this is a low point, whatever.

Your behavior is showing that otherwise that you actually not, and if, even if for the moment that you got out, out of it for a second, because you went and were seeking help and you got a little bit of help, right? The illusion that you receive that that small help gave you so much more energy, so much more aspirations, all this other stuff, 

[00:35:29] Mike: you 

[00:35:30] Eldar: overestimated and you just ran away from actually what you needed to do.

And I think that's what Socrates talked about. Don't just pick yourself up and keep going. Sit with it, you know, and examine exactly what you have here. Because you might actually be onto something, right. And then build on that. But unfortunately, a lot of times people trick themselves, you know, it's almost, it's almost like, it feels like maybe if it's a, such a confusing or such a like, um, perpetual cycle of suffering, it's almost like, I can't think, but think that it might be, people deserve it.

[00:36:09] Toliy: Yeah. I'm not sure if people like deserve it. No, they earned it. They earned it. I, I, I just think it takes like a, um, rare scenarios where people have like Stamina and the persistence to, to like, um, actually attack these things. Right. Cause like, we can all like identify things that we have issues with or stuff like that.

And we can say like, Hey, solving everything all at once is not doable. Right. But like when it comes to like an everyday. Like you wake up every day, for example, and you go about like life, what are you doing every day, even in the slow and steady, like way to like attack all of these things or like address all of these things, fix all these things, not doing shit, you know, so 

[00:36:53] Eldar: give people some concrete characteristics.

And I think the, the characteristics that you can talk about are the people that are on the train that you always talk about. 

[00:37:01] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:37:01] Eldar: Right. Give them some characteristics that they can at least maybe look towards like. That they can develop slowly, what are some characteristics that people can work towards to develop the qualities in order to be able to sustain a long term learning or persistent learning, consistent learning when they're feeling 

[00:37:21] Toliy: like rock bottom or shit in the bed?

Yeah, well, I think that they can one, they can, um, Learn ways to be humble and we have a podcast talking about it. So I'm not sure which one it is, but you can refer to that one. 

[00:37:36] Eldar: That's a lot. We have a 

[00:37:37] Toliy: lot of those, um, you, you, you need to be honest. You probably have a podcast on that as well that you can refer to.

Um, you need to be compassionate, which we definitely have a podcast on while you can refer to, to learn. Oh my God. Um, you need to have a good attitude, which we also have a podcast on, which you can refer to, to learn. And the last one, where's that five? So you said four. What? You said four. Oh, and the last one is that you need to have accountability, which we also have a podcast on, Thick Skin, that you can refer to.

Yeah, which includes Thick Skin, which we also have a podcast on 

[00:38:16] Eldar: that you can refer to. So all you're saying is that this podcast is the best podcast in the world, but nobody ever heard about it? Probably, yeah. Will people have a hard 

[00:38:24] Toliy: time listening to the show? Well, this one in particular, no. Okay. You know, because people Like, like the, uh, like the, um, they're like, they're 

[00:38:36] Eldar: like should be wrapped in the candy wrap.

[00:38:38] Toliy: Yeah. They, they like the art article that tells you like five ways to get better. They don't want to eat, read those individual art articles about how to actually get better on those individual things, you know, cause like this one sound sounds like a good idea. 

[00:38:53] Mike: Hmm. 

[00:38:56] Eldar: Wow. What can I say, guys? We said a lot.

Did we say anything? 

[00:39:03] Toliy: You guys tell me, you know, that, that, that, that's why I always have this issue with this rock bottom thing, because it's like, yeah, like when people say that they've hit rock bottom or something, something like that, like, um, what are liars? Yeah. I feel like. Like it's tough to believe one one one.

I I usually don't don't believe it and I think their actions speak loud I really show it's not true, but it's not like about them being like liars or or like that I think it's just in human nature that naturally the bruise is worse on the first day Then maybe the tenth day, right? Okay, but why then they use this tactic or 

[00:39:42] Eldar: this ploy?

Is it just social conditioning? That like people like throw this thing about like that's it. This is my lowest point. My life's fucked up. Everything's 

[00:39:49] Toliy: bad 

[00:39:51] Eldar: I hit rock bottom 

[00:39:52] Toliy: like in in a bad scenario where you're desperate. It's actually true Okay, but it's only true the moment. Yeah, but like That, that person, like they may, they, they may not be like trained or conditioned to, to understand it.

Like, Hey, this is a temporary state. It's going to get, you're not going to feel the same way tomorrow, for example. Yeah. Right. Um, but in that moment it does it like every second is like a day, right? Like it takes a long time, right. Or, or, or it feels that time is going by slow. So they actually think like they actually feel this way, but only for the moment.

Like, like if someone's listening to that, the wise person, like, they may understand that, right? Because like, they're not feeling that, right? So it's like when someone is saying that, like, the reality is that this is a temporary feeling. 

[00:40:49] Eldar: Yeah, but again, um, I think time, right? If we were to discuss a little bit of time, right?

I think we can agree probably that, like you said, it's momentary feeling, right? Especially for a person who's not in the moment, but that moment in time can be felt like it's fucking a lifetime. 

[00:41:06] Toliy: Well, yeah. Yeah, I just think that like people who feel these kinds of ways, right? Um, they have the wrong perception of reality.

They have the wrong perceptions of time, for example, how time works, like just that perception alone. How does time work? Uh, like, uh, how does that operate? What's a long time? What are you talking about? Two years, for example, what it is that in actuality for some people, yeah, if they're hitting their, you know, the, the people that say two, two years is longer, the people that sit there for a decade and do nothing as well, right, but then for them for two years from now, no, no, no, I'm not doing that for two years, like even though, 

[00:41:45] Eldar: even though what's at the end of two years might be so good, they can't foresee that.

[00:41:49] Toliy: Yeah, but they're the same people that have also been doing nothing for a long period of time. 

[00:41:54] Eldar: Wow. 

[00:41:55] Toliy: Right. But for them signing up to something that's gonna like you years from now benefit in two years like nah I need something to change now. They've been completely fine for last ten years doing nothing 

[00:42:06] Eldar: Yeah, 

[00:42:06] Toliy: or or a particular way and now all the sudden they need all these answers now Who the fuck do you think they are man?

Yeah, huh, you know, so yeah. Yeah, it's just I feel like Um, people that are in those scenarios, their relationships with reality and the way that they act does not line up with it at all. So the only way they can actually get themselves in a better place is slowly unpack everything and reexamine everything because all of these little tiny, tiny things that they don't view as important are super important.

Give a real life example. Well, like, like time is a real life example. 

[00:42:48] Eldar: Okay, fine. Give us give a more simple example without using the word time. Okay, times can be confusing. 

[00:42:57] Toliy: Okay. Um, like uh that like hat like Putting a high value on what other people think about you, for example. That that's like an ongoing thing, right?

I need to do this so that this person, um, esteems me, esteems me a particular way or like me or like that. Right. 

[00:43:19] Eldar: Approval from parents. From your girlfriend, from your boyfriend, from friends, whoever, social media, social media, whatever it 

[00:43:27] Toliy: is, maintain particular looks, images, right, all, all that, their perception is that these things are important and these things are crucial, right?

But I think the reality is that no matter how much someone else admires you, if you don't admire yourself in those ways, which you know who you actually are, 

[00:43:47] Mike: right? So you don't, 

[00:43:48] Toliy: even, even, even if like, You on paper look like you have your shit together, right? And everyone's like, oh shit. Look at that guy.

Like Right. He has a shit together. Like look he has this and that like his life is great Even if they're going around telling everybody about that If you actually don't have your shit together and your life is actually not great You're the only person in the world that's actually going going to feel that so no matter Like no one can trick you into like actually saying oh no like your life is good, man Yeah, right and you actually feel like it's shit.

Yeah, so like Whatever others are going to think about you in that kind of way Whether it's like in beauty things, whether you want to look good, if you feel ugly internally, 

[00:44:29] Eldar: there's 

[00:44:29] Toliy: nothing you're still going to feel ugly. 

[00:44:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:44:32] Toliy: No matter how many other people tell you that you're beautiful. 

[00:44:35] Eldar: But even though so many people are looking, looking for that validation, a hundred percent, they lost the God, their minds.

[00:44:40] Toliy: Yeah. Like that, that, that's a ongoing real life example. 

[00:44:44] Eldar: And I agree with you. That's a very good example. You know, how did the people get it so wrong, bro?

They kill Socrates, right? 

[00:44:56] Mike: Well, 

[00:44:56] Eldar: that's one thing. They, they crucify Jesus. Yeah.

It hurts too much to hear the truth. Oh, too much work that it's like, ah, get away from me. He's a witch. Ah, 

[00:45:13] Toliy: yeah, I think, yeah, I, I think probably from like, um, well, I mean, I think this is probably like, this is actually a reality from the moment that you're put into this world, like you're actually born, your parents are doing everything they can to do what the brainwash your ass.

Well, they're doing everything they can to keep you away from reality and the truth at this 

[00:45:43] Eldar: moment, right? Yeah, 

[00:45:44] Toliy: and then you grow up not being used to it not understanding it and it not being your friend And it being a very bad thing, right? They give participation trophies to people who suck at sports and sometimes you take advice 

[00:45:57] Eldar: from your own mom to lie about stuff That too,

[00:46:03] Toliy: you know, and then they grow up and realize like yo, I suck at baseball. I've been getting all these fucking trophies Yeah, yeah, like, you know Example. Yeah. You know, so yeah, I think that the way that there we're, we're raised in general we're very much like, um, protected and kept away from the truth. 

[00:46:25] Mike: Yeah.

So 

[00:46:25] Toliy: when, uh, we actually need in our lives when we need to fend ourselves, right? Yeah. When our parents are not there to protect us in like, every single scenario, like in life at every single moment. Like we are when we're, I don't know, like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, right? Yeah. All, all those, um, ages, right? Um. Where, where we need truth to be our friend.

It's like our dirtiest, like scariest enemy. Right. And then we need to only then start to figure out a way to, to understand that truth is actually our friend. 

[00:46:57] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:46:58] Toliy: And not like this bad person that 

[00:47:00] Eldar: the truth, if you line up with the truth, you can become confident. You can know yourself, you can feel good about yourself, you can grab all that energy that truth has to offer.

[00:47:09] Toliy: Yeah, but your whole life you've been kept away from the truth. And 

[00:47:13] Eldar: pushed away from it. 

[00:47:14] Toliy: Yeah, you know? So it's really hard to transform now into this person where like, your whole life this thing has been like, like. A bad thing. And now you need to, all of a sudden, if you want to get anywhere and get it to be the best thing, like 

[00:47:30] Eldar: get it away from me.

Yeah. Wow. So Mike, you haven't said anything. 

[00:47:40] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:47:41] Eldar: I don't have anything to say. I like it. I like it. So rock bottom is dead. Yet again, another one bites the dust. We killed hope. We killed discipline. Trust. We killed trust. Now we're killing rock bottom. It's almost like, um, Those grandiose Words or phrases that we use in life to try to describe it, very commonly understood quote unquote thing is actually misleading.

A lot of people is, is, is love next 

[00:48:27] Mike: for sure. Yeah, more than 9 percent of the use cases of those words are just generally most words is 

[00:48:35] Eldar: going to be that. And I think that is why philosophers, right? Like Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, right? Uh, Locke, they all begin. Their philosophies, you know, with what, with a measuring stick, they tell you what each word that they're going to use in their philosophy actually means.

So then you don't have the wrong interpretation of those words, uh, when they use them. Okay. That's what they do. Right. Because the word forms, right. Can be used one way by one philosopher versus another, for example. Right. Or whatever it is. So they're very careful when it comes to using words, right.

Common quote, unquote, common words to explain what they mean without it. You can be misled, confused, and misunderstood. 

[00:49:31] Mike: So, so, so rock bottom is that, but how do, um, how do people know, or how do you know that you're actually on the right track or isn't sustaining the right track? 

[00:49:45] Toliy: Well, like, why, why do you have to know that you're in the right track?

Well, I 

[00:49:49] Mike: think a lot of people use that word rock bottom. So if we're not using it anymore, so how do we, uh, or we'd have to use anything anymore to see if we're doing the right thing. [00:50:00] 

[00:50:01] Toliy: Like, like words wise though. Like, 

[00:50:03] Mike: I don't know. Words, actions. 

[00:50:07] Toliy: Yeah. I think that like your actions will always speak for, uh, themselves.

Right. Um,

and I think what if you're 

[00:50:20] Mike: not a good gauge of your own actions, 

[00:50:23] Toliy: if you're not a good gauger of your own actions, well,

then I think you at the least would have to be pretty good at asking the right questions or like, yeah, 

[00:50:39] Mike: you 

[00:50:39] Toliy: know, because if you're not, if you're not planning on doing either, then yeah, I would say it's very hard to be a successful. You know, like if you're not going to either asking for help or asking questions or being like a inquisitive and you're not a good like, and, and, and you don't have the ability to see if like, um, your actions line up with reality, then yeah, yeah.

I don't see how like. You get better.

So anything else on rock bottom? How do we do my, well, my Mike was asking, like, how do you know if like you're on the right path or like, like if you're not a good, um, he said, like, if, if, if you're not good at, at, uh, gauging your actions, you know, Like, how do you know if you're, I mean, 

[00:51:40] Eldar: the easy measure is thick as a, I guess, maybe how happy you are.

[00:51:44] Mike: Does that also depends on the measuring tool you use now? 

[00:51:49] Eldar: Uh, if I pinch you right now, really hard on your arm, you're probably going to feel pain. 

[00:51:53] Mike: Me? No, personally, but somebody else. Yes. Yeah. 

[00:51:57] Eldar: So, so yeah, I mean, right. I think it's pain and pleasure, right? I think that, uh, that's the, like the simplest of it, of them, right?

Right. How much pain you have in your life versus how much pleasure you have in your life. Right. And I'm not talking about just physical pain, pain or physical pleasure, obviously. Right. Uh, I think we can all understand that there's mental pleasures as well. Right. Um, I think, you know, I think, I don't know, I guess maybe if you're not good at judging your own, I mean, I think you can make a self assessment, right?

Um, 

[00:52:31] Mike: but then how would you know, if you're correct, if you're just starting off on a journey, like, uh, 

[00:52:36] Eldar: you know what, the truth of the matter is, like, I'm thinking of the situation where my mom, a lot of the times, right, where she's like complaining, complaining, complaining, complaining about everything, about everything, everything's bad, right, her relationship with dad, you know, with us, like, we don't listen to her, I want to give her enough attention, don't spend enough time with her, all this crap, right?

I'm like, okay, cool. Let's not talk about it. And then I start putting, putting those things back at her. She's like, no, no, no. We have the best family, you know, me and dad love each other and all this other crap, you know, so it's like, which one is it? Do we have a good family and we love each other and we do show each other attention or we hate each other.

It's a two polar opposites, right? So this almost shows me that the individual doesn't have the ability to gauge or what you're asking for. 

[00:53:21] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:53:21] Eldar: Whether or not they're happy or not. So, yeah, 

[00:53:25] Mike: that's the problem. That's a 

[00:53:25] Eldar: bad advice then to 

[00:53:26] Mike: that type of individual, right? That's the thing you're going to run into.

That's why you run into that where the person like totally said he's at 0. 5, but he thinks at 30. I think a lot of times, right? When we're suffering the pain feels like a very strong. Yeah, so we get a little bit of relief It feels a lot like a lot more than it actually is 

[00:53:48] Eldar: No, okay. So what happens I think right in the moment of feeling very specific pleasure I mean pain is that you actually are deservant of that pain that you are administering to yourself Okay in the moment, okay You doing this to yourself.

There's no other, there's no external factors that are doing this. You applying the pressure on yourself based on what your perceptions and understandings about the world and yourself in it. Okay. You following me? So you've applied. You, you know, you're saying like, I don't have no money. I can't pay these bills.

You're like, Oh, I'm a piece of shit. I can't believe this. Right. Whatever it is that you set the bar to be, you going against that bar in that moment. Now, if you came to totally, right, you told them the story and you said, Hey, look, I can't pay the bills and all this other stuff. Right. It totally goes, Hey bro, how about the fact that you're healthy?

Can you be grateful for that? And you're like, yeah, you're right. I am I'm happy that I'm healthy and I don't really have that type of physical stress. That's good for the moment being right? What's happening is that you are following his perception of reality and as you can only do it You can only sustain that following like you said for a very short period of time.

So you alleviate yourself Right. By taking on somebody else's understanding for the moment and making it yours. However, right, sooner or later, you're going to go back to that situation and you're going to again feel that same type of stress and that same type of thing. So does that answer your question?

[00:55:30] Mike: Mm hmm. Yeah. It does on that perspective on, and then what about the, um, what about the, like, the thing is the person, they, they overestimate their, um, progress, right? And you're like, yo, if you're suffering, you should be focusing on just solving that problem. Right. Is that what you're totally saying? Yeah.

Well, a lot of times the 

[00:55:55] Eldar: person will talk, but they lose that energy. Right. Yeah, because for the moment, right, like I said, they might have adopted somebody else's perspective. They have solved that not quote unquote solved. They didn't really solve it. Anything right, they just took that on alleviate themselves and they think like that's it.

Everything solved. Everything is good. That point five that he's talking about becomes dirty is that phenomena of delusion and illusion that they create themselves. 

[00:56:20] Mike: But then 

[00:56:21] Eldar: we have an ability to return because they're not humble enough because to come back to that same point Requires the same amount of humility that now is required to get out of that low point But because you're under the impression that you are 30, even if you drop to 25, you won't have the same humility It's impossible.

So you'll never return. 

[00:56:42] Mike: Yeah, 

[00:56:45] Eldar: that's crazy, but it's true 

[00:56:48] Mike: Mm 

[00:56:48] Eldar: hmm, so you have to go back down very far lower down and relearn Or what? He's saying again, probably the same lesson twice three times four times five times So then what you need to do is you need to create a more realistic expectation right listen to this between what was 0.

05 gain to 30 So now 0. 05 to 25, 0. 05 to 20, 0. 05 to 15, 0. 05 to 

[00:57:18] Mike: 10, 

[00:57:19] Eldar: and you start creeping slowly to really understand what reality is and what it is that you're accomplishing. 

[00:57:25] Mike: Okay. 

[00:57:26] Eldar: And that is the most important thing. Right, Tully? Yeah. So then you have a clear understanding that, look, sure, I've accomplished 0.

05, and I know this is a 0. 05. Yeah. That's why I need to return for the next 0. 05 What, 

[00:57:39] Toliy: what are you depicting, um, like a moment of, though? You're, you're depicting a very particular scenario where what is happening now in, in that final stage of what you just said, Oh, you're seeing things for what they are, you're seeing things for what they are, and you're aligning with the reality and truth, the reality of it.

Yeah, the reality of it. So now you're aligning with reality. You actually understand what is happening naturally. If you actually understand where you're at and what is happening, you are going to act accordingly. That's guaranteed. But the issue is that, that does not happen 99. 9 percent of the time. So, one 

[00:58:20] Eldar: way 

[00:58:21] Toliy: you can 

[00:58:21] Eldar: gauge your progress, right, is in the drop in between that happens between the 30 and the 0.

5. How bad is the drop

for you? 

[00:58:37] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:58:37] Eldar: Is it as shocking as crazy? Then you probably didn't make any progress if it's more so kind of like, okay, I expected that I understand this now. It's okay Then you're making progress And then when you're not surprised at all, I'm like, okay, this is clear Understand the reasons what what's behind everything then you're okay.

[00:58:59] Toliy: Yeah, it Studied the phenomenon between like the the Socrates thing of saying like I know nothing. Yeah, right Um, but what, what actually happens is that when you learn, you, you actually know something that's a paradox, that that's a paradox, right? So, like, you are naturally like smarter and better, right?

But. Not getting stuck either at that or like, um, like knowing the, the, the longer term vision or the goal or like maybe like where you're trying to go or what, what, what you're trying, trying to do, um, like, um, that's a very interesting scenario that happens because how can you keep the, I know nothing energy when, when, when you feel that, you know, something.

[00:59:55] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:59:56] Toliy: Right. That's the test of like, are you about that life because now you've gotten a little bit better, right? Things are not as bad. You still going to come back and learn that's that same day or night that you were feeling bad. You're still going to feel that way. You're still going to act that way.

Usually no. 

[01:00:15] Eldar: You know, so what you're saying is that for a very long time, you just have to keep acting and keep 

[01:00:20] Toliy: suffering. If that's what you need. Yeah.

[01:00:26] Eldar: So then you wrote your own destiny. Or not

Destiny's, prewritten, it sounds like. I 

[01:00:40] Mike: think there's also like, um, naturally, right? We like, uh, we as people, we have like these mechanisms that are people say, built into us, right? Self preservation, things like that, right? Mm-hmm . So. My question is, do you think it's in design that way? You can only handle so much truth in a certain period of time.

You can't just, like, uh, for, I mean, maybe you can, but, it seems to be the case, the way that people are acting, is they can't handle the truth for 2, 3, years, months, days, whatever, straight. They have to distract themselves with all this stuff because the pain is too, it's, uh, it's too unbearable, right? To face the reality, 

[01:01:29] Eldar: I think it is designed like that.

And I think that's into our favor. 

[01:01:33] Mike: Yeah, but it's also into our favor, but it also then in a way delays the process of expediting the process or no, no, 

[01:01:42] Eldar: I don't think so. Because I 

[01:01:43] Mike: think 

[01:01:44] Eldar: that based on, you know, 

[01:01:45] Toliy: uh, I was just going to say, saying that it delays the process. It's being under the assumption that that's not the actual process.

Yeah, you're assuming, 

[01:01:54] Eldar: yeah, you're assuming that that's not, if it's made by design this way. Well, yeah, I'm not sure if it is. Yeah, just because you might not understand it, of how it's supposed to actually work, doesn't mean that it's right. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But. It's supposed to be this way.

[01:02:09] Mike: No, that, I agree. I do think it's 

[01:02:10] Eldar: supposed to be this way. But then you, on the same breath, you're saying something's being delayed. 

[01:02:14] Mike: Yeah. Well, because Tully's asking for, like, uh, or what Tully's saying is, like, the person has to learn non stop, keep that same energy. 

[01:02:21] Eldar: Well, no, Tully's just making an observation of what's actually going on, and I agree with him.

[01:02:25] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:02:25] Eldar: He's not necessarily saying that, like, You can't change that you shouldn't 

[01:02:30] Mike: yeah, 

[01:02:30] Eldar: he's trying to figure out or trying to make a suggestion, right? Yes to like which qualities of what you should be doing in order to get to a place where you don't have to get stuck in that loop 

[01:02:38] Mike: Mm 

[01:02:39] Eldar: hmm of getting something go and trying it out feeling good for the moment and then fucking forgetting about everything like an idiot 

[01:02:46] Mike: Mm 

[01:02:46] Eldar: hmm.

All right, that's why being humble. All right as a trait having a good attitude Is, is what you're after, or having compassion, being honest, right, all those, uh, thick skin and accountability, right, all those, those, those things can contribute to your learning, right, potentially, but you hope that you have individuals around you at least, right, if you're lucky.

[01:03:10] Mike: Um, 

[01:03:14] Eldar: to be able to remind you of those, those things, of those traits, for example, Harris, right, lucky or not, right. He has us right now, he, he stepped into a very specific environment where you like it or not, you will be reminded of very specific qualities and traits that are necessary to be able to survive in this environment.

If not, well, we know how, how those other people ended up gig is up. You can act for only so long. 

[01:03:47] Mike: Yeah, 

[01:03:49] Eldar: I told you, 

[01:03:50] Mike: yeah, 

[01:03:52] Eldar: right. If you don't show that thick skin, that character, that being humble, humility and stuff like that, right. You're going to say, I don't want this anymore. Are you going to raise your hands and go, Oh, this is too much.

This is, this is a stop judging me. You know what I mean? And you're going to go and you're going to play out or live out your own perception. About the world and you're gonna do it your own way.

Good luck. I usually say to those individuals This is not to say that obviously the truth is not universal That we're trying to tap into and trying to understand how this shit works This doesn't mean that you can't get a find the teacher, right? If you're an arrogant bastard Doesn't mean that you can't come across Socrates and philosophies and philosophers out there that are roaming this earth right today Trying to make sense of the world.

[01:04:42] Mike: Mm hmm. 

[01:04:43] Eldar: Absolutely You know, you just have to get there and I think you're still going to be able to still face those same challenges and things in order to humble yourself, to be able to see things for what they are versus what they're not, you know,

so I think that we are a threat to a general pop. 

[01:05:06] Toliy: Yeah, but, but, but I also think that like when you're in the right environment. I, I do think that like that, like naturally the teachers in that environment on, on different things. Right. I think they, they, they like, um, they try to, I think, uh, demand like these particular good characteristics and they give you opportunities to like, to like strive towards them and to see if, if you're about it.

Yeah. Right. And those I think are like the little opportunities and tests to like, um, improve. Right. And like, uh, if you're not there yet to like, um, learn something from, from that scenario, or if you are, then you kind of put like your skills on display, right. On that, on, on that thing, I think. And I think that that might be like an indication, like for yourself.

And I think that like, it's impossible to not have a good gauge on that when, when, uh, when that happens, because I think that you'll, you feel a particular way when, when, when you do the right thing or when you're. Spot on, on, on something that I'm not sure if that cage is possible to, to be wrong, like when you actually align with the truth in those scenarios, you know, 

[01:06:31] Eldar: let me ask you this question and this probably might be the next topic if, if the people in the world, right, that are trying to live a life, happy [01:06:40] life or whatever life, right, um, all strive to influence.

Others into their perspectives, say, say, say that again, like, for example, if I've discovered something that I like about the world and I'm happy or whatever, right, I'm trying to share it, there's a reason why I want to share it right with others. I want them to look at the world right and connect with me through the same perspective that I'm preaching, right?

So my question is almost like if you are experiencing these good things about the world or whatever, you feel unhappy, whatever it is that you're feeling within yourself, you naturally want to spread that you want to give and share those perspectives with the world in the return, you hope that those individuals see the world in the same way that you're perceiving it.

Isn't that what the ploy is? Yeah,

and that's how we connect as people. 

[01:07:43] Toliy: Yeah. The, like the mutual understanding through. Uh, um, between two people and the acknowledged feeling of that thing is a 100 percent always good feeling. Yeah. So what it is is almost, 

[01:07:59] Eldar: let's just say I got it right. Something about a specific topic. Right. I got it.

Right. That's the premise, right? There's no other way. My way is the way. Okay. If I have the ability to then pass this on to my friend who has it wrong on this specific subject, obviously, because he's not acting, seeing, feeling or extracting the same stuff, right? Um, right, I passed this on to them and they're now experienced the world or reality in the same way and they extract the exact same thing, isn't that the connection that is being built between those two individuals and they see eye to eye for that moment?

But yeah, for that moment for that moment. 

[01:08:46] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:08:46] Eldar: All right, that 

[01:08:46] Mike: perspective have plenty of you who came about and we shared good moments with but 

[01:08:51] Eldar: no, I'm not saying that it's sustainable. I'm saying that is that like, I think that's what we're striving for. Right? I think we're striving to what? Right to get it right.

And then share it 

[01:09:03] Mike: for extended periods of time, hopefully, 

[01:09:06] Eldar: hopefully, ideally, ideally, right? 

[01:09:08] Mike: Yeah, if it makes 

[01:09:09] Eldar: me feel good and I got it, right, I'd like to pass it on to someone else and hope that they get it right too, because I feel good, right? And intrinsically, I don't think that feeling good, um, I think it has almost a necessity to share it.

Like it has in itself that like, you have to share if it's good, you cannot hold on to it long enough on your own because it's unsustainable to hold it, you have to give it back. 

[01:09:37] Mike: Yeah, 

[01:09:38] Eldar: right. And then that individual takes it, right. And you're like, Oh shit, this is nice. Let's go share it with someone else.

And you keep going and passing this thing around 

[01:09:44] Mike: in the true, probably sense of, uh, connection and connection. Yes. In the true sense. Right. But I think like we said earlier, that's not. It's hard 99 percent of the case. It's not the case, right? 

[01:09:55] Eldar: It's not the case because everybody's trying to figure out, right?

Everybody's trying to like, well, it's a lot of the times we get like, he has a perspective. He tries to give it to you, even though he he's, you think that he feels good from this perspective, but then he's making you lie and cheat. Right? To get that same perspective, he's trying to empower you, but the truth of the matter is you're like, Oh shit, I don't like this.

Like, I don't want to cheat and lie because it doesn't align with my values. Right? So you don't do it. Or if you do do it, you feel bad about it. So you're like, Oh, I didn't want this perspective in the first place. So you kind of disconnect. Right? I mean, the pure form of, like I said, that's what my premise of an example was.

I got it right. Right. I got it a hundred percent right. Let's go off of that premise. And then if I have the ability to pass that on to someone and influence someone, that's when we develop that connection. But the things that 

[01:10:38] Mike: you were saying that you got it, right. Are those things based on like a value system?

I don't care what it is. It's just true. It doesn't matter. That's 

[01:10:45] Eldar: uh, one plus one is two, one is one plus one is two. But that's like a mathematical 

[01:10:50] Mike: equation. I'm talking about. No, 

[01:10:52] Eldar: I don't think truth is based on value system. No, you don't think truth is based on logic. 

[01:10:59] Mike: Truth is based on, 

[01:11:00] Eldar: oh, yeah, that's true.

Value. I think value systems are very subjective. I think a truth and logic are very objective. 

[01:11:06] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. So if you come to somebody who's not ready to like, uh, who maybe can line up with you on the moment, but like, yeah, man, I think your idea is great, but like, I got a career, I got a this, I got a, that that's, they can agree with you, but they can't.

Stay in that moment for a long time because they have all the values that are stopping them from like, you know, No, 

[01:11:30] Eldar: not necessarily. They might have attachments to perspectives that they have to live out because of the attachments that are strong That's so strong that are calling them to live out those perspectives That's all that is.

I hear you. I like this moment for this moment, but this moment doesn't jump over the fact that I need to make 200, 000 a year, have a wife, three kids, a boat, and a summer house. Your, your thing is nice. Yeah, of course. Right? We're going through this right now. It sounded nice, right? This guy that came to our, into our lives and said, Hey, I'm raising my hand here.

I want this. I said, okay. Give him this. But I also want this. I want camaraderie. I want teamwork. I want this shit. This shit. This shit. This shit. No problem. We have this. We have this better than anybody else out there. Show me that you're true about it, right? Show me that you actually are about this life.

[01:12:29] Mike: Mm 

[01:12:29] Eldar: hmm. I call his bluff. 

[01:12:31] Mike: Mm hmm. 

[01:12:32] Eldar: Right there and there. 

[01:12:32] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:12:33] Eldar: You know, and we find out who you really are. Mm hmm. Whether or not you can actually line up with what we're talking about and share that moment. Mm hmm. For a prolonged period of time. That's it. 

[01:12:43] Mike: I think, I think that moment you're talking about is the truth, right?

[01:12:45] Eldar: Is all you said? I'm assuming that I have, that I have it. 

[01:12:49] Mike: Mm 

[01:12:49] Eldar: hmm. In that moment, yes. All right. And somebody else got it wrong,

you know, 

[01:12:59] Mike: but does the truth inherently carry value? No, 

[01:13:03] Eldar: no, I don't think so. I think we place value on the truth.

[01:13:15] Toliy: I think like values, what you get when you extract the truth, right? Like you get that value. 

[01:13:21] Eldar: Yeah. You probably, yeah. Like, Oh, this is good. You know what I mean? But like the example of earlier, right? Gravity. Okay. That's the truth. What do you got? You know what I mean? It's gravity that exists, right? But in your life.

Right? What's your value proposition for gravity, Mike, aside from 

[01:13:38] Mike: value proposition, 

[01:13:39] Eldar: aside from not being able to jump high enough to then because you're scared because you got hurt. Well, again, it's gravity. 

[01:13:44] Mike: Yeah, that's, you know, that's a tricky one, but that's for some 

[01:13:48] Eldar: people that double for some people there is there could be because like, you know, Elon Musk's and people trying to defy gravity with speed and shit like that.

They have to consider consider what gravity the law has to offer in order for them to develop rockets and, 

[01:14:01] Mike: you 

[01:14:01] Eldar: know, all this other crap. Around that, 

[01:14:03] Mike: you 

[01:14:04] Eldar: have to consider those equations. We don't, me and you, we don't. Gravity is like, okay, cool, like, you know, we're not going to jump off of a building knowing that we weigh a lot.

We'll jump into a water, 

[01:14:16] Mike: you 

[01:14:17] Eldar: know, or on the pillow, but we won't jump on the solid thing.

You know, it's just, there's truth about it and there's nothing you can, what value are you going to, me and you, at least place on it. Aside from the fact that it's probably, it's, it's comforting. 

[01:14:37] Mike: Yeah, I guess I was trying to connect it. Um, that's why I was trying to, trying to connect to see if there's a connection there.

[01:14:48] Eldar: What problem did you have? Why'd you, why'd you pose the question and what you did about the value before? Like what the person's carries, like you connect on the truth, but then they have their own values about things. 

[01:15:00] Mike: Oh, why? Um, I'm not sure why, but I was just trying to like, um, I think, I think the way that you're, you're like, uh, speaking about it.

I think it's like in the moment, everybody can agree. That this is the truth. This is the right thing to do. This is morally correct. This ethically correct. Right. In the moment, everybody can agree. Yeah. But once you step out of that moment, everybody has their own values and what they value as important.

What is 

[01:15:32] Eldar: important to them that doesn't mean anything So what even if they have their own values if they behave in accordance in accordance to not the truth that was spoken about in That moment they get hurt. 

[01:15:43] Mike: Yeah. No, I know. I know. No, I'm just saying that that's that's what happens At times is that people can enjoy the moment, but then when they separate from that moment Right, because you created you with your belief, your truth, you created this moment, right?

And it was based on I don't know. I don't 

[01:16:03] Eldar: know if maybe okay. Yeah, 

[01:16:04] Mike: sure created. Yeah. Okay. Oh you shared this You already shared it with this person. Yeah that moment kind of like you guys Maybe I understood 

[01:16:11] Eldar: something about something and they happen to be the truth. 

[01:16:14] Mike: Yeah, 

[01:16:15] Eldar: you know what I mean, and I shared it.

[01:16:16] Mike: Mm hmm 

[01:16:16] Eldar: So I created the moment you're saying, and those people were able to tap in and agree and experience or feel the energy from this moment. Okay. I 

[01:16:24] Mike: mean, yeah, when you experience that moment, I think everybody's susceptible to experience good, uh, genuine good feelings. What is, what are their 

[01:16:30] Eldar: values have to do with anything within that moment?

There's no, I don't see any connections or interconnectedness between those values or that moment. 

[01:16:39] Mike: Yeah, cause I think that like, like, uh, No, but the reason I brought that up is because you're saying that It logically to you, it seems like, Hey, if I discovered something, the truth, I'd like to share that with somebody else.

And you hope that they share it with somebody else. You said, no, 

[01:16:55] Eldar: that's not what I said. I said that if you actually hold the truth, it's, I think personally that it's impossible to not share it one way or another. That's what I think. I think intrinsically the truth, if it's held long enough, it has to be shared.

You can't hold it all by yourself long enough. I think that we're designed to share because we're social creatures. Sure. Right? And a lot of the times, when do we share? We don't share like, most of the time, we don't want to share what? Embarrassing things, bad things, negative things, right? Mm hmm. Hence, we're staying quiet, right?

Mm hmm. A lot of times, we want to say what? I just won a trophy, guys. Check out this trophy. Mm hmm. Check out this trophy. Check out this trophy. Yeah, we share good things, right? We share good moments. We share happiness. Mm hmm. This is what I'm saying, you know

[01:17:48] Toliy: Yeah, I also think that like when someone's like saying something that is true and they're able to create that like like I think that All they're doing is properly explaining like two plus two, right? Communicating and like, no matter what, if someone's like listening and paying attention and they, and, and they, they like don't have an objection as to like, no, actually, like if they actually think that two plus two equals five and that moment stops and now a back and forth is going to happen as to like what's actually right and what's actually wrong up until like that person then is.

Like they're either going to like, yeah, like learn in like a line with the truth. Right. Or they're going to buck and then not want to hear it or whatever it is. Right. But that moment's like only possible as if like, like they get properly explained why two, two plus two equals four. And, um, they understand it, but it doesn't mean that they have embodied, um, all that knowledge, all that knowledge that, that, like the person.

Who, who is maybe talking about it or maybe does have it have, they're just like in the moment connecting like on, on, on, and that, and they can't really not agree with it if they're like, like, if, if they're understanding it, right. Because like, like they, they, they would just be like, yeah, I mean, yeah, man, like two plus two equals four and, and, and that's it.

There's no, like, feelings, like, uh, towards it, like it is what it is, right? 

[01:19:32] Eldar: And I think outside of that moment, depending on whatever values, belief systems, or actions that they want to take outside of that moment, it's on them. This has nothing to do with, 

[01:19:40] Mike: yeah, they 

[01:19:41] Eldar: have nothing to do with anything that, that moment transpired.

If, if they need to continue to learn. More in order to be able to extend this moment past, you know, that moment into their lives. Great. If not, they're going to have to go through the process of learning and suffering or whatever they need to go through in order to learn how to do that. That's it. You know, there's nothing more to it.

I think, you know, 

[01:20:04] Mike: yeah. 

[01:20:04] Eldar: And I actually think that on a subconscious level, we all are looking to do that. We're looking to be able to extend these moments of happiness. 

[01:20:11] Mike: All 

[01:20:12] Eldar: right. But the only way we can do that is if we find the truth. You know, about ourselves, about life, about reality and align in accordance to that.

[01:20:23] Mike: Yeah.

[01:20:27] Eldar: So totally, is it as simple as just understanding the, the, the laws of the universe and aligning as close as possible to 

[01:20:35] Toliy: not as simple as that. 

[01:20:36] Eldar: Okay. Fine.

[01:20:44] Toliy: It's as hard. It's, it's as hard as that. 

[01:20:47] Eldar: It's as hard as that. 

[01:20:48] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:20:50] Eldar: All right. Fine. Yeah. We never say that it's that easy. That's true. It's as easy. You wish, right? Or no, or you don't wish, 

[01:21:05] Toliy: I don't wish, no. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't have like, uh, 

[01:21:08] Eldar: yeah, you know, I mean, slow and steady wins the race. Right. It's like, oh, nice.

We're going to get to learn for a little bit longer and like probably inevitably, inevitably for eternal, eternal eternity, which is pretty cool. Right. Unless you believe in like finite life and one life and dying and not reincarnating and all this other crap. 

[01:21:30] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, even if you do though, you could still like agree that you'll be learning for the rest of your life.

[01:21:39] Eldar: That's true. And that's comforting for some. I mean, it'd be scary for others. No. Can it be scary for others? No. It's impossible. 

[01:21:50] Toliy: Well, like, I think that people who are expecting to understand everything by a certain period of time. They're going to always be disappointed. 

[01:22:00] Eldar: Yeah. Intrinsically learning is a good thing.

At least can, can we say that learning has preserved its intrinsic value in the, our society today that like, Hey, you like to learn, of course, everybody will say that right now, but not the hard way. Fuck you, 

[01:22:19] Mike: right?

[01:22:25] Eldar: It's true I want to learn on my own terms, okay fine All right, guys final thoughts Mike

final thoughts totally help us. Please help the people that are listening All three of them Three yeah, 

[01:22:45] Toliy: I

mean, I mean like it's hard to know what it's to say I think one one one interesting topic that I think could help people and I think that like this might be a good Future, uh, podcast episode, right. Is, um, how do people that are in like a bad place or like, they don't have stuff figured out, right. Or they're unhappy.

How do they actually know that ha that that actual happiness exists? It like, like that, like a [01:23:20] better life actually exists. Like, how could they actually like, uh, know that 

[01:23:24] Eldar: that's. The way you phrase this fucked up, it's kind of like boxes me in without trying to get you think more. 

[01:23:31] Toliy: Yeah, because like, right, like those, those that 

[01:23:33] Eldar: are feeling that way are not supposed to by design.

No, no, but then like, but you asking me how? 

[01:23:40] Toliy: Yeah, well, fucking, you know, yeah, like how, how does somebody, for example, how does somebody that is not in a good place? Actually, like, um, go like, like, how could they, like, why would they go? Why, why would they take any kinds of steps? Like if, if, if, if they for sure knew that there is a better way and they were convinced of it.

They would do the necessary steps like, uh, need it, but they don't because they're not fully convinced, right? How do they know I'll tell you how yeah Like how could they know so that they can then put themselves in the position to like learn? The only way 

[01:24:19] Eldar: is the fact that we have books We have the fact that this knowledge has been passed on 

[01:24:24] Mike: and 

[01:24:25] Eldar: the fact that is those people will one day or another Brush their shoulders against someone and they'll get lucky.

How can they know they can never know? Well, that's That's the reality of it. 

[01:24:45] Mike: They'll can never know that they can never know that there's hope or whatever you called it. Yeah. 

[01:24:52] Toliy: Yeah. Like that, that to me, like that, that's what like separates the people oftentimes who are about it and who, who are not, because, um, if everybody fully knew about like of, of everything, right.

And the exact steps to get, to get there, they would never need to be humble enough to learn. You would no longer need to be humble. Right. But the fact that, that they can't for sure know and they can't for sure prove it out, uh, requires the ability to be humble, right? 

[01:25:28] Eldar: I think so. I think what you said was pretty complicated, but I'm just gonna have to agree with it because you've been saying pretty good stuff.

And I'm just gonna go on the whim and say, 

[01:25:35] Toliy: No, no, think about it, think about it though. 

[01:25:38] Eldar: Yeah. Like, if I 

[01:25:40] Toliy: gave you like, okay, Elder, these are the, 162 concrete steps from start to finish. If you follow these, right, like you will, you will, uh, you will like learn to be honest, for example. Right. If you like a hundred percent success rate, these exact steps, right.

And you had them written down. 

[01:25:58] Mike: Okay. 

[01:25:59] Toliy: Okay. If somebody followed them to a T. Right. Like in, in that kind of way, I'm not sure if you would need to be as humble as if the feeling of you not knowing for sure. Right. Like, it's almost like when you have like, I don't know, let's just say like a computer software or a game to download or like, I don't know, like windows.

Right. And you're installing it onto a new computer. Like, That computer doesn't need to be humble to take in all that information. Yeah. Right. Like, it's just going to get that information, whether it likes it or not. Yeah, that's it. Cause it's a hundred percent thing. Right. Like, unless it was, I guess like a corrupt file or something.

Right. Like we could say that, like, it's a hundred percent thing. Right. 

[01:26:43] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:26:44] Toliy: You're not going to install windows 11 and get Mac. 

[01:26:46] Eldar: Correct. No. I hope not. No matter 

[01:26:49] Toliy: what that computer's attitude, I might 

[01:26:50] Eldar: be able to find some people that can do this. 

[01:26:54] Toliy: Yeah. Like no matter the attitude of that computer or the feelings of it, right?

Yes. Like we can all agree on that. This is correct. Right. Um, but for people, that's not how it works. You can't just like. Upload software. 

[01:27:07] Eldar: Yeah, 

[01:27:07] Toliy: right to them and they're gonna get all like the lessons and all like like we said like the values all like All the knowledge there, right and because it's not 100 it requires being humble to get it Yeah, and the thing is there there is no like proven 100 like life Note like journal.

Yeah. Yeah journal. Yes That tells you exactly what to do in every moment from start to finish that guarantees you for example, like how it's like Guarantees you 100 percent Yeah, I would say no so because of that there is the requirement to be humble because there is basically a risk that's Taken by by that person ego right by that ego.

Yeah. Yeah, the risk is ego. The risk is like Um, maybe looking dumb or like being embarrassed, being embarrassed. Yeah, that's the risk that is, um, required to, to get something out of this situation. You have to put yourself in a vulnerable and honest scenario so that you can benefit. And you can, everyone has this trait or this, 

[01:28:15] Eldar: this quality, correct?

Yeah. From birth. Okay. So that's it. You leave everybody. Listen, those are the final thoughts. The truth of the matter is, if you listen to this podcast, you had a hard time understanding what the fuck's going on. It's okay. You can bet on one thing. The fact that you can become humble because it's intrinsically in you and you can leverage being humble, having humility to find yourself a good life.

[01:28:42] Mike: Yes or no? 100%. 

[01:28:44] Eldar: Why? Because it opens up the pathways to learning and learning opens up the pathways to a good life. 

[01:28:51] Mike: I thought it was because we have a soul and we can recollect. 

[01:28:54] Eldar: Well, that's a different conversation. You need to calm down. 

[01:28:57] Mike: I'm very calm right now. 

[01:28:58] Eldar: Okay, good. 

[01:29:00] Mike: Guys, thank 

[01:29:00] Eldar: you so much. This was great as always.

Thank you.