176. Bridging the Gap: From Knowledge to Wisdom

Why is it so hard to bridge the gap between knowledge and action to achieve wisdom?

In this thought-provoking episode of Dennis Rox, Eldar, Mike, and Toliy explore the elusive nature of wisdom—defined as bridging knowledge, experience, and action—while dissecting why attachment to outcomes leads to suffering. Drawing from Socrates' idea that true wisdom lies in recognizing ignorance, the hosts discuss the "gap" between knowing and doing, the role of subconscious habits in self-sabotage, and how force (in sales, relationships, or personal goals) prevents genuine growth and fun. Through relatable examples like dating fears, sales rejections, and family dynamics, they reveal how patience, self-awareness, and non-attachment can transform pain into progress, ultimately leading to a life of authentic joy and mastery. Perfect for anyone stuck in repetitive cycles, this episode challenges listeners to pay attention, question their realities, and embrace change without forcing it.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Dennis: On this week's episode, 

[00:00:02] Eldar: if you attach yourself to an outcome without seeing things for what they are, I mean, you ought to suffer. 

[00:00:06] Mm-hmm. 

[00:00:06] Especially because if you don't get the result that you wanted, you're gonna throw a fit. So I think attachment is a big one. 

[00:00:13] Mike: You want something to happen in your life, don't force it.

[00:00:15] Just fucking be patient. Take your time. We have many different attachments, and I think a lot of times we force certain things. We can get frustrated because things are not going that way. I 

[00:00:25] Toliy: think it's ultimately easier for most people to like find a way to deal with how things are mm-hmm. Than to like fix them.

[00:00:32] Yeah. To like have the thick skin and like the resolve to like go through figuring them out. 

[00:00:36] Eldar: Wow.

[00:00:41] All right guys. Today's topic is on wisdom and Mike has a bone to pick with it, right? Mm-hmm. What'd you say on the walk, Mike? Why 

[00:00:50] Mike: is there a, uh, why is it so hard? Why is it so hard to, like, if you have the knowledge and then to the do the action, the wisdom. 

[00:00:57] Eldar: Yeah. So I Google real quick the definition of wisdom.

[00:00:59] Mm-hmm. Right? And it, you know, it says the quality of having experienced knowledge and good judgment, the quality of being wise, right? Mm-hmm. So quality, the soundness of an action or decision with regard to the application of experience, knowledge, and good judgment. This is what we're gonna talk about, right?

[00:01:17] Mm-hmm. Where you're taking the knowledge that you know, and you're able to soundly Right. Soundness of an action. 

[00:01:22] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:01:23] Eldar: Right. Properly apply that knowledge onto something. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? So, because, you know, then I Google Socrates definition of wisdom, right? And he says, Socrates viewed wisdom primarily as the conscious recognition of one's own ignorance.

[00:01:42] Oh, whoa. This is not what you were meaning? No, no. Okay. Right. He famously stated, the only true wisdom is knowing that you know nothing. 

[00:01:53] Okay. 

[00:01:55] That kind of like mm-hmm. Washes your whole thing away. Yeah. Completely. Yeah. Right. But you have more of a problem with bridging the gap between knowledge and action.

[00:02:04] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:02:04] Eldar: Right. A lot of times we maybe find something out. Mm-hmm. You know, oh, this is good for us. Some kind of a habit. Yeah. You know, good habit or whatever. 

[00:02:11] Yep. 

[00:02:12] You know, be diet, sleeping, or whatever. 

[00:02:15] Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:15] And a lot of times hard to apply it. Right? Yes. Let's associate the regular definition of wisdom. What it says here is the soundness of an action or decision with regard to application of experience, knowledge, and good judgment.

[00:02:29] What are your, what are your initial thoughts guys? And why is it so hard? Why, why is it so hard for you, Mike? What, what is, like, do you have an, do you have an example to share with the audience with us that's like, you know, that's eating your grapes? 

[00:02:43] Mike: Mm. Right now, I don't have an example, but, um, well, probably the girl thing.

[00:02:51] Mm-hmm. The girls thing. Yeah. That's a good example. But it's like, uh, it's a good standing one. It's a good long, long standing, uh, yeah. Open thing. But I guess, uh, I never thought about it from a knowledge slash wisdom perspective, like, uh, in those specific terms. Mm-hmm. But obviously I do understand there's a delay in action.

[00:03:11] Mm-hmm. And I'm trying to, like, I, I'm trying to think what's the delay and every time we talk about it, I think we discover more and more, but, um, I'm not sure if that's relevant. 

[00:03:25] Eldar: The interesting part, uh, behind what you said is that. You recognize that there is a gap between knowing something and then doing something.

[00:03:32] Yeah. You know, that's kind of wise, I think. Well, but it's not so wise to be maybe, uh, have a gripe about it. Right. Yeah. It's definitely not wise. 

[00:03:42] Mike: No. 

[00:03:42] Eldar: Or like, oh, what the fuck? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I can't do something, oh, this is not working out for me. Mm-hmm. Why can't I do it? You know? Yeah. Even though you just said yourself, Hey, I know knowledge and action, there's a gap between the two.

[00:03:55] Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:55] And it takes some time to spool. Right. And get to a point of actually doing something, uh, and then turning it into maybe wisdom. Mm-hmm. Which is, you know, let's just say in your case right. Where you have problems with approaching girls or whatever, you know? Mm-hmm. You become so good at approaching girls that you become master of teaching others, right?

[00:04:13] Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that would be your wisdom, right? Be so sound in the action. Totally. What do you think about that? What do you think about Mike's problem with the wisdom part where a lot of times the knowledge is not applied? Um, 

[00:04:30] and why, why is that? Yeah, I guess, um,

[00:04:38] there, 

[00:04:40] Toliy: there's like a, a couple of things here that come to mind for me and like, um, I've probably been thinking about this topic for the last week there, like two or three years. Mm-hmm. Nice. You know? Okay. Um, um, because like I always, um, caught myself in scenarios like, um, feeling that like when I've made particular mistakes that I actually like, know better.

[00:05:04] Eldar: Hmm. 

[00:05:05] Toliy: But like actions don't show it. Yeah. The actions obviously don't show it. Yeah. And that happens to me like timelessly amounts of times. So I feel like I've thought about this like for like, uh, for a, for a while and like, um, where I'm at on this is there's, there's like two parts here. Mm-hmm. To me, there's like a huge, um.

[00:05:27] Um, a huge underestimation happening on the person's end about like their habits. Okay. What do you mean by that? 

[00:05:36] Eldar: Underestimation? Like, they have, 

[00:05:38] Toliy: they have particular habits and it may not be one particular habit. It could be, um, many habits, right? Like for example, intertwined together. Yeah. Like, may, may, maybe you have a habit of like, not paying attention when someone is speaking to you, for example.

[00:05:52] Yeah. Right? Yeah. Like, you kind of like go elsewhere in the conversation, or like you start thinking about something else that you were gonna do or whatever, right. Maybe you have that, maybe you have a habit of, uh, like not saying how you actually feel, or maybe you have a habit of like, um, like Yeah, ju just, it's like there's a lot of these habitual things that happen that you're not thinking about, right?

[00:06:16] They're, they're, they're just like ways of doing things that have like. So-called, worked for you in like a particular way that like when you applied them and when you like repeated them many times and you just continue to do them, but you don't actively put any like brain power into like thinking about theming them.

[00:06:35] Yeah. Don't have the ability to examine them. Yeah. Right. So that's like, to me, one part of it. The, the second part of it is, um, like the, the act of like consciously like thinking about something and like foc focusing on something is also to me, like another underestimated thing. Right? Because like, um, like I'm very convinced that no thinking like no thinker when he's thinking is going to, I don't know, not make any kind of mistakes, but like there, there's no way they land in a bad place in the moment of thinking.

[00:07:11] Mm-hmm. I agree. I agree. Agree with that. Like to, to, to me it's impossible. So because of that, there's too many. Um, there's too many moments that happen that don't include any thinking like in them. 

[00:07:24] Eldar: Mm. 

[00:07:24] Toliy: Right. And that's like, like the devaluation of that is what causes to me, like this disconnect. And then it's the either like the denial or the lack of recognition of the already habits and subconscious things you have formed.

[00:07:40] Why? And like, I like, like, I can't go around those. Like that, that to me is like exactly what's happening because like, when you're thinking and you're paying attention and you're focused, there's no way that any of these things can play out. 

[00:07:55] Mike: Yeah. Why, why would, uh, someone not think, or, I don't know. It sounds like, uh, doesn't sound like it's choice, right?

[00:08:01] Is that you're saying it might be linked to a habit? 

[00:08:03] Toliy: Well, it like. There's a lot of things that we put in the habit category 

[00:08:08] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:08:09] Toliy: That we, that we, um, like don't understand that we did that. 

[00:08:13] Eldar: Mm-hmm. And 

[00:08:13] Toliy: we don't like place value like, uh, on it. And like, we, we don't even, like, it's one of those things where like, we're suffering with something, but we don't know what exactly.

[00:08:22] Or maybe we think we know what mm-hmm. But like, um, like thi this is what is being suffered. Like what that person, for example, would be suffering with, but they don't know it. 

[00:08:31] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:32] Toliy: So to them it's, it to, to them it's like mo most people in the little actions, little interactions they have with people or just di different things that they do.

[00:08:42] Mm-hmm. They don't think about what they're saying, what they're doing, what they're listening, they don't like, properly take the time, um, to like comprehend what's going on. 

[00:08:53] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:53] Toliy: You know, so like, you don't even know what's happening to you, but. Like you have maybe like negative feelings that are happening.

[00:09:01] Mm-hmm. You know, or like thoughts or like ne negative things happening to you that you don't like, but like, obviously like you can go on the quest and try to figure it out, but like, you have to know why these things are happening. Um, and like the, the, the thing to think is like, paying attention and thinking is a definitely like a, uh, actual like skill.

[00:09:24] Eldar: Mm-hmm. And, 

[00:09:24] Toliy: and like, it's not something that's like in, in the current, like, um, in the current like iteration of like, like who we are as people now. Mm-hmm. It's not just like something that like, is like default 

[00:09:37] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:09:37] Toliy: To, I don't know, someone raised differently in different circumstances, but I'm not sure.

[00:09:41] But do people are 

[00:09:42] Mike: thinking like, uh. There's moments that people do think, 

[00:09:48] Eldar: yeah, well that's what he is saying. Yeah. He's actually saying that. He's saying, look, there's moments when I sit down and I pay attention, I think. Mm-hmm. Those unchecked things will always get checked. They're not gonna fly under the radar.

[00:09:57] Yeah. And what did I tell you outside when we, we had this conversation. Do you remember? 

[00:10:03] Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:04] I said the same thing. He said, I just didn't call him habits. Mm. I told you there's a dynamic 

[00:10:09] mm-hmm. 

[00:10:10] That's behind why you're not maybe wise about certain things. Right. Right. Certain actions, certain knowledge.

[00:10:16] Mm-hmm. It's because there's so many different things that are flying under your radar mm-hmm. That you're not really paying attention to, but they're all are making up this gear that is automatic for you. This is what he just described. Mm-hmm. And saying that those habits mm-hmm. You don't even know because you're not paying attention, but they're there.

[00:10:32] Mm-hmm. They're working really hard against you. 

[00:10:35] Mike: Okay. Understood. 

[00:10:35] Eldar: So when it comes to actually doing something properly, you can't do it. Mm-hmm. Because there's so many more things that are, there's more girls up in that house, you say. Yeah. 

[00:10:43] Toliy: Like you, yeah. Like, even when you try to do something, what happens is that like, like you can picture yourself standing on like a, let's like depict like your life.

[00:10:51] You're standing on like a, a, uh, chess board. 

[00:10:54] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:54] Toliy: Right? And you're trying to make moves, let's just say for your example to get to the queen, right? Mm-hmm. To to, to get to the other, 

[00:11:01] Eldar: yeah. 

[00:11:01] Toliy: Like queen. But the enemy chess, uh, let's just call it the enemy, right? Chess pieces mm-hmm. Are invisible. 

[00:11:07] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:08] Toliy: So like you, like maybe to you, you think they're invisible, they're visible, but they're actually invisible.

[00:11:15] Mm-hmm. And you're making moves with your pieces getting eaten. Mm-hmm. You know? 

[00:11:19] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:11:19] Toliy: But you don't understand it. 'cause like, you don't understand what traps you've set up. What like, conclusions you've made, like why this is like, why, like why everything is happening, like you don't have the proper answers mm-hmm.

[00:11:32] To those things. So that like, even if you're trying to do something mm-hmm. Like, you continuously get hit like from a direction that you don't understand or expect or like have an actual explanation as to like, why now with, I think, um, enough work, you slowly do uncover some of these things and now some of these pieces do become visible and now you're like, okay, I'm not gonna eat this pond.

[00:11:56] Because then my bishop's gonna get Ian. Right. Or like, I'm not gonna trade this kind of thing. Correct. Mm-hmm. Because you know, you know, you know ahead of time. Yeah. Like you start to see these like traps and these like minds and everything, right? Mm-hmm. But in general life, when you're, especially when you're not focused or thinking or paying attention, you just get your pieces, just get Ian and you don't know why it's happening.

[00:12:14] Or like, you could give yourself a reason as to why, but it may not be true. 

[00:12:18] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:20] I think it's interesting that he, he alluded to a lot of the time as to paying attention. Like that thing is so undervalued. Mm-hmm. Maybe by the world or people. Right. But, but I think having the ability to actually pay attention to what is going on is probably your salvation to a lot of the suffering.

[00:12:40] Toliy: Yeah. And like, ha uh, habits are the opposite of paying attention. Like Yes. Habits and those kind of automatic, more like sub, sub subconscious, like, like that that's been on my mind for like many months right now is like the subconscious Yeah. Things and like all these habits. 'cause like anytime you can. I think of anything that's happened to you, I don't know, in the last like two years that was like, like, I dunno, for you negative or you didn't enjoy or whatever, it probably was some kind of subconscious like action or some kind of habitual action that you weren't happy with.

[00:13:11] Like, you, you definitely can't like outline like, okay, like this was a moment of like critical thinking and like Yeah. Yeah. I was paying attention. Yes. And like, I panicked, I just like press the wrong button and everything like, you know, blew up, up or something. Like Yeah. Tho those scenarios don't, don't, don't, don't happen.

[00:13:27] You know, it's mo it's, it's mostly like a habitual buildup mm-hmm. Of your, of a bunch of small actions that cause like, some kind of like negative thing for you to happen or some kind of like, um, suffering Right. Or just ways of doing things, but like the actual ability to like, like focus and think and then to reprogram those things to then create better habits.

[00:13:53] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Like. 

[00:13:55] Toliy: Um, like that's at least what, what's like, um, mo more, most important, like, for, for me right now, you know, is like, because I have so many bad habits, you know, that contribute towards like, just recurring suffering and like IC I'm continuously a payer of this recurring plan, you know, that I have myself bought.

[00:14:17] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:18] Toliy: And then I still pay for it. Like, I chose it, I bought it, and then I suffer with it. So it's like need. So would you say, I need to 

[00:14:23] Eldar: say, so would you say, let's, let's, you know, make it a little bit light. Would you say that you are wise in that as well? Yeah, probably. Yeah. You know, like he's wise in suffering then, right?

[00:14:34] Mm-hmm. Or anxiety or whatever, right? Like he said, look, I've created this plan for myself and I'm the, I'm continuing to buy into it, continuing to doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Mm-hmm. In order to get what out of pain. So he's a, he is wise when it comes to getting pain. Suffering because he's been doing it for a very long time.

[00:14:51] Yeah. 

[00:14:52] Toliy: Like, I, I, I, like, I, I, I'm like, I feel like I'm overly informed. I have too much information. 

[00:14:57] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:14:57] Toliy: You know? Yeah. And, and the more information I get, the more conscious and painful my suffering is because Yeah. That, that like break happens between like, what are we doing? Are we doing something about it or No?

[00:15:09] You know, a lot of things allegedly Right. But you still suffer with particular things. So it's like there's something going on here where your, like your, your, your, uh, operating system can, can, like read Yeah. The information properly. Like, like something is there, there's some kind of disconnect, you know?

[00:15:26] Mm-hmm. Well, and like, well, let's, let's 

[00:15:27] Eldar: try to define some of this disconnect, right. Let's try to quantify it at least, or throw some, some things out 

[00:15:33] mm-hmm. 

[00:15:34] Onto the world or here, uh, to help you know, ourselves and, and listeners to understand what is this disconnect, uh, entails. I'll start with one. We talked about it, right?

[00:15:44] It can be attach. Right. Attachment to what? A very specific outcome. Right. Uh, for example, in your case, right. Um, you wanna approach a nice pretty girl. 

[00:15:56] Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:56] Or you wanna say hi and you wanna get her number. 

[00:15:58] Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:59] Right? So you are attached to that outcome. Mm-hmm. You want to get her number. 

[00:16:03] Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:03] But the truth of the matter is Right.

[00:16:05] Or the reality of things that you're not seeing for that moment. Right. Because you're so attached mm-hmm. Is that some girls are gonna be interested and some girls are not gonna be interested. Mm-hmm. Some girls are gonna be married, some girls are gonna be single. 

[00:16:16] Mike: Right. 

[00:16:16] Eldar: You don't have a crystal ball to know exactly where that girl stands.

[00:16:21] Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:22] Whether or not she will understand your joke or your compliment, roll with it or not. Right. So if you, if you attach yourself to an outcome without seeing things for what they are, I mean, you ought to suffer. 

[00:16:33] Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:33] Especially because if you don't get the result that you wanted, you're gonna throw a fit.

[00:16:38] Right. So I think attachment is a big one. Mm-hmm. And which is attached to what that attachment is usually attached to. Not seeing things for what they are. Right. Um, and not seeing things for what they are is exactly what you usually talk about is that you're not operating out of truth. 

[00:16:54] Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:54] You know, if you're not o operating outta the truth, like in, in the case of, like I said, some girls are married, some girls are not, some will entertain it, some are not.

[00:17:01] Some will understand your humor, some will not. Right? Mm-hmm. If you're not operating outta that, then you're gonna miss a lot. But if you are, then you know that one of the outcomes, that's gonna be a, a decline, right? They're gonna decline you, right? Mm-hmm. They're gonna say No, reject you rejection. So if you know this well, how can you miss?

[00:17:22] Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:22] Yeah. You know what I mean? 

[00:17:25] Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:26] I think that's just one of them. Attachment. Attachment is a big one for sure. And what else do you guys, what else do you guys think that is out there that is holding us from bridging this gap? 

[00:17:35] Toliy: Yeah, and, and, and like in, in like in what you said, for example. Yeah.

[00:17:40] Right. Like, um, obviously like. These kinds of concepts and for example, in sales are very heavily tied. 

[00:17:47] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:47] Toliy: Right. And like, like they, um, like the, the teaching in sales, for example, is like, there's no rejection. There's, there's, there's no such thing. There's, there's only like, bad fits or good fits. Yeah.

[00:17:58] You know? Yeah. Like, okay, well you're not a good fit. Mm-hmm. Right. This mutually doesn't make sense. That's right. Right. Like, uh, um, I'm not a fit for you and you're not a fit for me. I'm trying to have fun and you trying to be serious. That that kind of, for example, that kind of scenario is actually like, it's not one person good, one person bad.

[00:18:16] Yeah. For, for example. Yeah. In, in the things not fitting is a good thing. It's like, you know what you stand. If you wanna get, do you wanna get, for example, a problematic client that doesn't pay on time or like can't afford services or like whatever? No, no, no. No one wants that, right? Nope. So if, if like, if you knew that like this, they're gonna be that, but they still wanna buy.

[00:18:35] Yeah. Then like you wouldn't sell to them, right? That's right. Or vice versa. Like you wanna sell to somebody, but maybe they don't find you as a fit. Like they, they, there, there's like, you know, different things. So when people identify that something is not a fit, I mean, that's a good thing. It's a good thing for both people.

[00:18:50] That's right. It's not a bad thing for one person. Um, and good for like the other. It's, I mean, it's, it's good for both. 

[00:18:59] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:18:59] Toliy: You know? 

[00:18:59] Eldar: Mm-hmm. So, yeah. So what do you think about that, Mike? No, I agree. For sure. You agree? For sure. I mean, I, how can I disagree? Well, if we're speaking the truth, then of course.

[00:19:10] Yeah. And then, then you agree. 

[00:19:12] Mike: Of course. Yeah. 

[00:19:13] Eldar: So, anything else, else? It's a good example that he brought up in sales is just like, it works the same way. Yeah. But a lot of times people I write who are new to sales, for example, Harris, right? Oh, rejection's bad. This is terrible, yada, yada, yada. Because he's not seeing things for what they're, 

[00:19:27] mm-hmm.

[00:19:28] Right? 

[00:19:30] So, 

[00:19:32] and I think at the end of the day, right, if you. See things for what they are. This is where I link that fun thing, right? Mm-hmm. I wanna transition to that. Yeah. Is that if you like totally. Who understands sales and he understands that these are gonna be the outcomes, right. These are the possible outcomes and he's okay with it.

[00:19:49] Because that's the reality of this is the nature of things perfectly fine. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think then we are empowering ourselves in order to then have a choice in the matter. How do we want to take that call? Right. Do we want to take it with an aggressive, pushy energy or do we want to be light and informative?

[00:20:08] Yeah. See 

[00:20:09] Toliy: in like in, in that kind of case, there's also different scenarios if like you have a quota mm-hmm. For example. Yeah. And you have one week left. 

[00:20:17] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:20:17] Toliy: Like if you got this in the back of your head and you need to hit this goal, for example, which is an attachment. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Like you have an attachment to hit this goal.

[00:20:25] Yeah. Or you need to do something, you could act a particular way to try to again, like get someone to do something. Yeah. So that you achieve your quota. Right. Or someone. Like if they're not a fit right now. Right. Right. Like, I dunno, someone I was talking to today, they, they, they're gonna go with postcards instead.

[00:20:41] Right. It was a good size opportunity. They're gonna go with that instead. But they said like, Hey, like, um, I know that you guys probably have like a better higher performing product, but we want to get our feet wet here and we're actually gonna document all of the results. Right. Mute. So then like in, in my case, like, because I'm not like if, if I'm not, if I'm not in a position to be attached for an outcome to happen, I said, oh, that's great.

[00:21:04] So you're gonna be documenting, you know, all the replies, what you do, how much it costs, everything. Yeah. Great. How about I like, we speak again in 45 days. Mm-hmm. For example, right. And then we see kind of, we will, we see what you got and how, how, how it's working there. Yeah. Right now, if I had to close that deal within a week, yeah.

[00:21:23] Now I'm going to act a different way. My energy could be different towards this person where I could be now trying to like. You know, say like, conniving shit, or like Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pushy convince or like push somebody. Yeah, yeah. Saying that like, Hey, that's gonna be a big mistake. Like Yeah. Scare them into something.

[00:21:38] Yeah. Try to, try to like, you know, like, like I, I could fight back to a certain degree as to like, try, try to challenge 'em for something. And if they're saying that, Hey, I'm not willing to think about this or entertain this, you should be respect, respectful. You have to let them go with the postcards, then they're, then they're not gonna work.

[00:21:52] And then they're gonna be listening a little bit more closer, for example, later. Later. Yeah. You know? 

[00:21:58] Eldar: Um, yeah. And this is what I was trying to tie, I was trying to tie that if you understand reality for what it was, you empower yourself by having a choice in the matter. How do you want to conduct yourself?

[00:22:10] And this is where I explained to you that I wanna tie fun into it. I want to tie fun into wisdom, right? Mm-hmm. Because I think that, uh, if it's genuine fun, right? Not the one that what Tara mentioned, where, um, you are having fun, maybe. But somebody else, you're hurting somebody. Mm-hmm. Right. I'm talking about the fun where it totally can challenge people, enjoy the way he's challenging.

[00:22:30] Maybe cracks a joke or two. Right. Uh, he's having fun. Maybe he's not getting the the deal because he understands why. Right. There's a clear reason. But nonetheless, he's having fun. So I think, I think that's wisdom. 

[00:22:42] Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:43] To me, where you understand the scope of service, you understand the reality of things, and then you have the ability to maneuver, use your knowledge, your expertise in such a way where it's also fun.

[00:22:54] Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:54] Right? Without hurting the other person. Right. In return, you're not making fun or poking at them or whatever. Abusing them, but challenging them a little bit. Right. In such a way where you are enjoying that process for yourself as well. And I think that think wisdom is probably, because I think inherently wisdom is a good thing for us as humans, right?

[00:23:17] And if we talk about pure good fun, right? Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:21] Um. I think those two are tied together. Yeah. 

[00:23:28] That wisdom is pointing into the direction of if you are wise, if you know, if you see things for what they are. If you don't have no attachments and life is there to be taken in such a way where we can just enjoy ourselves.

[00:23:40] I think the enjoyment and the fun comes with that. Mm-hmm. And those people who master it and have the ability to do it in such ways where it's prolonged. Right. And almost maybe then habitual like Tony talked about. Mm-hmm. On the other way, they have a little bit of wisdom in that area. 

[00:23:58] What 

[00:23:58] do you 

[00:23:59] think?

[00:24:00] Yeah, no, I agree. I agree with you guys saying I do think it's,

[00:24:07] Mike: it makes sense to me like, um, I think like a philosophy, you know, philosophy discussions and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. It's fun. 

[00:24:16] Eldar: Philosophy is the love for wisdom. That's how I was define 

[00:24:20] Mike: philosophy is the love. Philosophy 

[00:24:23] Eldar: is a Greek word. Yeah. And it's translated love for wisdom. 

[00:24:26] Mike: Mm. Yeah. Mm. 

[00:24:28] Eldar: Sick. Sick. Right.

[00:24:30] Mike: Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. Sorry. Um, yeah, so I think philosophy itself is fun. Mm-hmm. Like having the, obviously the, uh, talking about philosophy, of learning about yourself, learning about others, I think that's fun. And then application of it is also very fun. 

[00:24:45] Eldar: Well, yeah, I think that the application of philosophy is next level fun.

[00:24:48] Mike: Yeah. And I think that's what you're kind of talking to, talking about, which is like, uh, wisdom is like, uh, having control of your own reality, like having more control of reality, right? Yeah. And then kind of aligning it with the truth. Yes. So it's like, uh, and I think that's very fun because you know what to expect.

[00:25:07] You have predictable kind of outcomes, you know what to expect and what not to expect. 

[00:25:11] Eldar: And if you don't, right. Yeah. And if you don't, you know how to roll with the punches. Yeah. Right. Where those things are, not as if they're not. You know, they're not affecting you in a detriment mm-hmm. In a detrimental way.

[00:25:22] Yeah. Right. They're more adding to your understanding and say, oh, that's why I think Socrates went into the whole wisdom. Yeah. Wisdom is like not knowing anything. Right? Yeah. Because a lot of times I think in life we're gonna get to a point where like, oh, I didn't know that. But if you have that humility or you have that open-mindedness, and now that rigidness mm-hmm.

[00:25:37] Right. Then you have the ability to accept new information and not be judgemental about it. Mm-hmm. And therefore your mind stretches a little bit more. And then when you again, accept something, understand it, then you can manipulate that as well. And it keeps going and going and going and going 

[00:25:52] mm-hmm.

[00:25:52] For unlimited amount of fun, which I think is what, what philosophy is. Mm-hmm. Right. It's the lawful wisdom, but it's because it's, it's the coolest thing in the world, you know what I mean? Yeah. If practiced right, and if it becomes our 

[00:26:05] Toliy: habits 

[00:26:06] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:26:07] Toliy: And, but, but also, if not, it, it, it becomes the most painful thing in the world.

[00:26:12] Um, well, 

[00:26:12] Eldar: yeah. That's why we, that's why we have you to speak on that. 

[00:26:17] Toliy: What do you mean, man? Well, well, you, you 

[00:26:18] Eldar: just said it. You just said it. You given us a Yeah, he just said, said, what's this wrong? What said it like a, you know, like 

[00:26:24] Toliy: a, 

[00:26:24] Eldar: well, what do you mean you serve your purpose right now? You know what I mean?

[00:26:26] Yeah, yeah. 

[00:26:27] Toliy: This has to be like a little gremlin here if you get it, if you get information Yeah. And you don't apply it. Yeah. But you have, you have it like, yeah, you, you, you're gonna obviously suffer. 

[00:26:37] Mike: So then you don't ultimately have the information because you don't have Well, you have the information.

[00:26:41] No, you have the information. You have information about the subject, but you don't have information about the variable, which is yourself, right? 

[00:26:46] Toliy: Well, yes, maybe. Yeah. I, I I think it's more of that, like you, you have an uncovered what's going on in that scenario. Right? And like you, you haven't like, um, 

[00:26:58] Mike: well, uncovered is like another word for information, 

[00:27:01] Eldar: not having information.

[00:27:02] No, no, no, no, no. I think that what you will go on regarding the self of not knowing yourself and how that applies to yourself is the key here. Like he said. You might uncover some knowledge, but there's other things around it, other habitual things that make up the system. Mm-hmm. Therefore, to be able to apply that specific knowledge might not be able to, you might not be able to do it.

[00:27:21] Mm. Because there's other workings going on, and that is the self workings, right? Mm-hmm. We're attached all these things, for example. You know what I mean? And until we're uncover those, that knowledge that we've gotten mm-hmm. Can be applied in the graceful, fun way. You know what I'm saying? Because we're still struggling with what maybe an outcome, like I said, right in your case.

[00:27:42] Like, oh, I'm expecting for her to say yes. Mm-hmm. Wait, wait, wait. You disregarded reality, my man. Mm-hmm. What are you talking about? Mm-hmm. Yeah. She might be married, she might not speak English. She might not understand what the hell you're talking about. You know what I mean? She might be not attracted to you.

[00:27:54] Yeah. What's your problem? These are all possible outcomes and truth about the world. 

[00:27:58] Mike: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:02] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? 

[00:28:03] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:28:03] Eldar: So if you don't take that into consideration, sure. You might have the best pickup line in the world. Mm-hmm. You know. You picked it up from someone, you know what I mean? Yeah. But it might completely fall on deaf ears, and you might get shitted on, and you might actually feel very, very bad.

[00:28:19] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:28:20] Eldar: Rightfully so. 

[00:28:21] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:22] Eldar: You know, so there's a, there's a bigger makeup that's going on here. Mm-hmm. And so you uncover those things. Yeah. You can only, you can almost say like, you're not deserving of having fun. You know what I mean? 

[00:28:33] Mike: Well, I think that's logical. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, and you know, like we've been talking about me and relationships for like a while, right?

[00:28:41] Yeah. And you know, when you speak. Like, I have those moments where I'm like, think I've learned something and I want to go out there and try it. Mm-hmm. But then in that process, as I go out and I learn more stuff in different parts of my life, like I go, I go rock climbing and I learned about actually myself, about something that's very tied to love.

[00:29:00] Yeah. You know? 

[00:29:01] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:29:02] Mike: So I think, and I'm, you know, happy that I'm learning this stuff and I, I also, but also understand like there's something that I'm lacking that needs to work on in order to be more compatible, more compatible, you know? And I think that, and I, I've also like, uh, believe that, yeah, if it's not happening for me for a reason, I'm not ready for it.

[00:29:19] Yeah. I haven't learned what I need to learn. And again, and maybe also makes me think like, is it just like a more of like a byproduct of like doing the right thing towards myself mm-hmm. With my, you know, like, uh, not doing the things that I'm uncovering, that I'm doing wrong against myself. 

[00:29:36] Eldar: Uh, say that again.

[00:29:38] Mike: Like, um. I'm learning that the things that I'm doing uhhuh are bad towards me. Okay. Yeah. They're against myself. That's right. Obviously, like Yeah. You know, the self negative talk. The self talk and Yeah. Not having like a character. Mm-hmm. And like not picking aside all those things. Not being confident.

[00:29:54] Not being confident. Yeah. Yeah. So all those things I'm learning. Yeah. You know, that I feel like it's a byproduct, Uhhuh or like, maybe not a byproduct, but it's part of the process Yeah. Of getting to where the place who I'm, where I want to be, who I am. Yeah. Who I'd like to be. Yeah. And then just the relationship is just like a byproduct of like doing the right thing to myself.

[00:30:12] Well, that's 

[00:30:12] Eldar: now you're going to, to Tony's theory. 

[00:30:14] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:15] Toliy: Right. 

[00:30:16] Eldar: Totally. Mm-hmm. Did you hear what he said? I 

[00:30:19] Toliy: missed the last thing. I was, I was having a hard time tying it. 

[00:30:22] Eldar: Okay. Well, he's saying that, look, um, the reason why I'm not having, I'm not in a relationship or on love right. Is because I have all these things that I need to learn about myself and uncover and then fix Right.

[00:30:35] Where that work, right. If I do actually that work, then love will be the byproduct of that work 

[00:30:41] Toliy: that's guaranteed. 

[00:30:43] Eldar: Yeah, totally. He's been saying this mm-hmm. For a very long time. 

[00:30:45] Yeah. 

[00:30:46] You know, so that, so that's interesting. 

[00:30:50] Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:51] Yeah. 

[00:30:53] I'm not sure like, 

[00:30:54] Mike: uh, another way that it could work. 

[00:30:57] Eldar: Yeah. It's like, um.

[00:31:01] You feel you would fill your cup finally mm-hmm. To the point of the brim, where then anything else you put in there is gonna have to spill over. Yeah. And has to spill over to someone. 

[00:31:09] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:31:10] Eldar: You know what I mean? And in your case, if you want love Right. I think you will be that magnet that's gonna be able to attract that individual.

[00:31:17] Mm-hmm. Right. Real love if that's what you're shooting for. 

[00:31:19] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:31:19] Eldar: Because you could jump into any relationship pre pretty easily nowadays. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? I think, you know, um, but if you, if it's something genuine, if it's something really worthwhile Right. A, a good relationship for, for the long term 

[00:31:32] mm-hmm.

[00:31:32] Then yeah. Yeah. I think that would be the byproduct of, well, I think that's 

[00:31:37] Mike: how it's supposed to be done. Right. Like if you set a goal for yourself. Yeah. You don't just like stand in the mirror and say, all right, I'm gonna be rich. I'm gonna be rich, I'm gonna be rich, I'm gonna be rich, I'm gonna be skinny.

[00:31:47] I'm gonna be skinny. I'm gonna be, yeah. Right. You go and say, okay, this is my goal. This is all I would like to achieve. Yeah. What is the actual steps? Okay, you need to go to the gym. Okay. What do I need to do with the gym? I need to walk, I need to run. I need to lift weights. Right? Yeah. Or I want to have a successful career.

[00:32:00] Okay. What does that mean? What is it required? Yeah. So a lot of times probably we had like a part of this, but you have to fo you sh you have to, you don't have to, but you, if you focus on the work that needs to be done and not so much the end goal, the end goal is gonna be just gonna happen like as a, you know, byproduct.

[00:32:17] And I think a lot of times people get stuck. Yeah. On the end goal maybe. Maybe. 'cause their reasoning for the end goal is not rooted in like a.

[00:32:33] Truth as you always say. Yeah. Yeah. As I always say. Yeah. Like if you just want to get, yeah. Like, you know, people make those announcements. I wanna be a businessman, I wanna be successful. Like, you know, entrepreneur. Yeah. But they don't get there. Or they, why do you want to be an entrepreneur? Like who you wanna prove wrong, for example.

[00:32:48] Right. Yeah. Who are you trying to impress? Yeah. Do you feel like you're not enough if you're not a business owner? Like, yeah, 

[00:32:53] Eldar: why can't you just have a nine to five? 

[00:32:54] Mike: Why can't, yeah. Like maybe you're better suited for a nine to five 'cause you don't have those abil qualities of a 

[00:32:59] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:33:00] Mike: Not that you can't learn them, but Yeah.

[00:33:02] You're not a natural 

[00:33:03] Eldar: leader 

[00:33:03] Mike: or something like that. You're not a natural leader. Yeah. Yeah. So like things like that. I think a lot of times the focus is not on the actual steps. Mm-hmm. To get to where you want to be. But a lot of times the The results, the results people think about overthink 'em. Yeah. And maybe with the wrong intentions, let's just say are not the best intentions or.

[00:33:23] Uh, how to say it? Like, uh, I'm not sure how to say it. Like in, in that kind of way. 

[00:33:27] Eldar: Well, yeah. I think that you're talking about without wisdom. 

[00:33:30] Mike: Mm. 

[00:33:30] Eldar: Without wisdom in mind. 

[00:33:32] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:33:33] Eldar: Right. Where, you know, you have to be able to bridge the gap between those things. Mm-hmm. But bridging that gap requires some thinking, some paying attention, like totally said, you know, and, uh, that's hard to come by.

[00:33:45] Yeah. Nowadays, right. Where people actually are listening and paying attention. 

[00:33:50] Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:52] All right. So we answered your question. 

[00:33:54] Yeah. All right. So, um, 

[00:33:58] Mike: where do you want take this now your question. Which one? The one we were talk we had during lunch. Is it about force? Force? What was the question? Force of nature.

[00:34:12] Eldar: The, the one in the stomach? 

[00:34:14] Mike: Yeah. Uh, no, I think that's an interesting topic. Okay. Got, um, I'm not sure. It maybe ties into this too, but Yeah, like, uh, I dunno if there was a question, but it was, we had just had a discussion about force, uh, like, um, a lot of times things are forced, you know, 

[00:34:33] Eldar: and, um,

[00:34:37] how does that tie into actually like a,

[00:34:46] I got you. 

[00:34:47] Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:48] I think that we're trying to talk about force mm-hmm. And we're trying to talk about that, uh, force actually prevents love, right. Love is closely tied to probably wisdom. Mm-hmm. Right. As a kind of reward or whatever. Mm-hmm. And tos example of force mm-hmm. In the sales call. Right. So you could take the sales call for what it is.

[00:35:06] Mm-hmm. See it, unpack it. Yeah. Ask questions around it, but don't get to the point where you become forceful. Mm-hmm. Right? Because when you become forceful, you know what I mean, somebody's gonna lose. Mm-hmm. Either the client's not a fit, either, you're not a fit for the client, right? Mm-hmm. But there's gonna be some kind of a forceful event mm-hmm.

[00:35:26] Which, which is gonna hurt one party or the other. And my argument was that a lot of times we don't pay attention that we actually do provide this force. Right. And if we actually paid attention to, to a lot of the things that we do, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and acted not with force, but with, um, seeing things for what they are, unpacking things and, you know, how can I put it with grace?

[00:35:53] Maybe, you know. Then, um, I think you remove that pressure from yourself and from someone else. 

[00:36:01] Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:01] Especially in interactions or relationships. Mm-hmm. Right. And I think that, uh, then you probably are tuning into the, uh, innate call for maybe for love, right. Where I need attraction for love, where you feel that and it feels good.

[00:36:26] Mm-hmm. Right. Where the person can talk with open-mindedness, maybe compassion, empathy, 

[00:36:33] and all this other stuff. Right. Um,

[00:36:39] and that's why I think it's important mm-hmm. In order to bring those things 

[00:36:43] out. 

[00:36:44] Force is 

[00:36:44] Mike: like, um, we talked about the force of, uh, parents. Uh, yeah. My parents trying to put us on a schedule to do things their way. Their way. Yeah. Right. According to their like, uh, belief systems and Yeah. What they think starting 

[00:36:57] Eldar: when we were young, yes, we should be doing this, not doing that.

[00:37:00] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:01] Eldar: You know, to then, you know, when we were older, you should be taking this career, not this career. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. You should be studying that, you know, without leading with more of a curiosity. Right. Where like, what do you actually like, let's explore this, let's explore that. No, you should be a lawyer.

[00:37:16] Oh, doctors pay good. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Eat this, don't eat that. You know? Yeah. This is good for you. This is not good for you. These are all un unsolicited advice, pretty much. Which is packed with a lot of force. Mm-hmm. Right. And what happens to us, right. We shell up, we learn how to be defensive.

[00:37:36] Right. We learn how to be probably self-conscious. Right. Well, we, uh, develop what's his name? Um, insecurities about ourselves. 

[00:37:46] Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:46] Oh shit. I don't like that. But I should be doing that because my parents said us. 

[00:37:49] Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:50] You know, my parents would love me if I did this. And I think we live out our parents' perceptions a lot of the times.

[00:37:56] Yeah. Which were forceful mm-hmm. Upon us. 

[00:38:01] Mike: Yeah. And I think it all obviously ties to wisdom, I think too, because force to me feels like, um, it's like either you or someone else is, is blindly and ignorantly pushing you down a hill. Like, but you can't see where the hill's going, even if the 

[00:38:17] Eldar: hill requires you to eat some cherries in the middle of the day.

[00:38:20] Mike: Yes. Especially. Yes. Yeah. And I think that's, that's what it is. It's like, um, it's what we were speaking about earlier, which is just not paying attention, not really questioning things like, wait, yeah. Why should I do this at this time? Yeah, yeah. Like, our parents say, okay, you gotta come home. You gotta do, like, do this, do that.

[00:38:41] Alright. 

[00:38:42] Eldar: Sorry, Mike. 

[00:38:42] Mike: Yes. I, I, 

[00:38:43] Eldar: something came to my mind, I have to say it. 

[00:38:45] Mike: Okay. 

[00:38:46] Eldar: The most wise person 

[00:38:48] mm-hmm. 

[00:38:48] Is the person that sees the most minute. Force that can be either potentially applied in a specific interaction and avoids it. 

[00:38:59] Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:00] And I think we brought up Jesus. Mm-hmm. Right. Who led with love or Buddha led with compassion, right?

[00:39:05] Mm-hmm. And all those people, right? They understood within the interaction where there was force, or whether there was not force. Mm-hmm. And they knew to make the choice to not apply that force upon the other individual or another sentient being. 

[00:39:19] Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:20] And that is what made them wise. So. Mm-hmm. Did you think about it?

[00:39:24] Did you understand what I said? I did understand what you said. Yeah. The smallest, right? Mm-hmm. So let me give you an example of the biggest, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, Toll's case, right now, he's looking into the case of this guy who stabbed those students, right? Mm-hmm. Clearly, a lot of force was used in order to kill these students, right?

[00:39:40] Mm-hmm. That's very forceful, right? Forced upon himself. Mm-hmm. Right? That's an example. That's an extreme example of a lot of force, right? Yeah. Then there's other examples where you punched somebody in the face. 

[00:39:49] Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:51] A lower one, right? Mm-hmm. You didn't kill 'em, but you punched somebody in the face. Yeah.

[00:39:53] You didn't kill them, you know? Yeah. Lower one, right? You slapped someone or you stepped on their foot or whatever. Mm-hmm. You know, on purpose you screamed at someone, you know? Yeah. I thought 

[00:40:07] Mike: about forces impatient as well. 

[00:40:09] Eldar: Being impatient, right. Towards someone, or the way Totally towards some, someone, something totally is impatient towards me about the lunch, right.

[00:40:14] He's pressing me about this stuff. Sure. To say, oh, we're about to eat, or whatever, but like nonetheless, it's forceful towards me, right? Mm-hmm. As you start to diminish, as you can see, we went from killing someone. Mm-hmm. A lot of force, right. To then being mindful of someone's time. Right. Or being mindful of someone's routine.

[00:40:31] Right. I eat breakfast, later breakfast, so I'm not ready to eat lunch at 12. Mm-hmm. Right. For example, if totally not being mindful of that, that's force. Mm-hmm. Right, and you can keep going. I'm saying that those individuals like Jesus or Buddha for example, I think that they were able to distinguish between.

[00:40:49] The, not distinguish between, but they were able to identify the smallest and sense, the smallest amount of force. Yeah. In interactions with all sentient beings. And had the ability to say, okay, distinguish like, what's the right thing to do here? And they chose, right? Mm-hmm. Right. And they chose right.

[00:41:05] Probably long enough for long periods of time for it to be habitual enough. Mm-hmm. For those individuals around them were able to observe it and say, yo, this motherfucker is onto something. Mm-hmm. He's special, whatever. Right. But that's, I thing the blueprint behind removing the force. Mm-hmm. And acting out of love.

[00:41:27] Mike: So force is also like, gets tied to attachment too, right? 'cause if you're an attachment to something, you're gonna, you might force it. You might force the subject. Of course. Yeah. It's all tied of course, obviously. Yeah. 

[00:41:38] Eldar: And obviously we're constantly, what we're doing is we're constantly oppressing one another onto each other.

[00:41:43] Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:44] You 

[00:41:44] know? Like I mentioned before, that we're trying to like, you know, brainwash each other into Yeah. Our own worldviews, you know, this is, this is kind of a little gig 

[00:41:52] mm-hmm. Here, 

[00:41:53] you know, uh, without being mindful that sometimes that there's a certain level of force that is being applied mm-hmm.

[00:42:00] That might not be suitable or good. Or the outcomes that that force will, um, come up with will not be desirable. 

[00:42:09] Mike: But sometimes force is a good thing. Listen, we could talk about that too. You know, in the words of Socrates, Uhhuh, because I was, uh, listening to something and he said, you know, um, they were like raising the question, I think t was listening to the same PO pod.

[00:42:24] He was like, lying is bad. And s said, well, is it always bad? Mm-hmm. Right. And they had like some kinda example and they gave, okay, well maybe it's not bad in this example. Mm-hmm. Right. Same thing with force. Right. And it made me think about the rock climbing example. Mm-hmm. You, when you force me, let's quote force.

[00:42:40] Yeah. You're putting force on me Yeah. To do something that you know I can do. Yeah. I don't look at it as a bad thing. Yeah. Because I know you're pushing me to do what I. Ultimately I can do, like, I just thought about that. I mean, like, oh, see, 

[00:42:50] Eldar: see, the thing is with that type of force, right? I think that, um, it's different.

[00:42:55] Of course. No, it's not that it's different, it's that I was given the green light to help. Oh, right. So if you never came to me Yeah. And you never said something. And trust me, I have this issue too where like, um, I'm watching a lot of kids climb now, and I'm not saying that I'm good mm-hmm. But I see some of the newbies that come over there and I almost want to help them.

[00:43:14] They're not asking me. Yeah. You know what I mean? But like, I'm almost like, yo, like it's so easy kind of thing, you know? Mm-hmm. And I'm, I'm between a thing where it's like, do I help them or do I not? Do I help them or do I not, you know? Mm-hmm. So. I have a hard time sometimes to refrain from that, you know what I mean?

[00:43:29] Yeah. To be forceful, I'm sometimes forceful, you know what I mean? Yeah. I'm a, I'm a lot more lenient when it comes to forcing my advice on you. If you ask me prior. Oh yeah, of course. If we're working on this, if you say, yo Elda, I'm constantly glitching out here. Mm-hmm. I need help. Yeah. 

[00:43:42] Mike: Oh 

[00:43:43] Eldar: yeah. I'm gonna fucking tear you apart.

[00:43:44] Of course. You know, 'cause you gave me the green light a hundred percent. You know, not because, but if we never did, I have to be cordial and I try to restrain from that to try to understand that gap between what's forceful and what's helpful. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. In those cases. So yes.

[00:43:58] Sometimes definitely. Yeah. Force I think is necessary, uh, especially if somebody invited you to apply that type of pressure because you know you need it. Yeah. Yeah. The question is whether or not that force is effective is a different question. 

[00:44:12] Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:13] Just because you did that V three that one time.

[00:44:15] Mm-hmm. The black finally because totally came and forced your ass 

[00:44:18] mm-hmm. 

[00:44:18] To use the mph. Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:20] I 

[00:44:20] don't necessarily think that you still have the umph in you. Mm-hmm. So did you learn in the long term? I'm not sure. Only time will tell. No, I think it's like, um, he just showed you that you have it in you.

[00:44:30] Yeah, yeah. Somewhere deep inside. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. If you follow that through, you might replicate it. Yeah. But really totally did it for you. Mm-hmm. Mentally. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Right. That's why I think the phenomenon rock climbing is so interesting because a lot of kids mm-hmm.

[00:44:44] Will come there, try certain things mm-hmm. And then they did it once and they can never do it again. Mm-hmm. They're like, what the fuck? Something's wrong. Like, how do I do it one day and I can't replicate it again? Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a mental thing. 

[00:44:57] Mike: Yeah. It is mental. Yeah. Like it, some days you come in, you're not feeling like, uh, yeah.

[00:45:02] Focused, whatever. Yeah. But yeah, it's definitely not a bad thing, like in this example, no. 

[00:45:12] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:45:12] Mike: Yeah. But I. 

[00:45:15] Eldar: And I, and I wouldn't want to, like if, if you started giving me like adverse reactions and stuff like that and if you really started getting upset with me or something like that mm-hmm. Then I realized that you were silly for giving me the green light to be forceful with you.

[00:45:28] Mm-hmm. I'll realize that you're have your panties in the bunch, you don't have the thick skin for this. Mm-hmm. And I'm just gonna back away. 

[00:45:33] Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:34] You know what I mean? I, we will restart somewhere else. Yeah. You know, I'll remove the force. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? The force is not, it is not being used in, in our advantages and why use it at all.

[00:45:44] Mm-hmm. You know what I'm saying? 

[00:45:45] Mike: Yeah. But I also think that the, the example you gave about the t thing, I, I think it's also, it requires a, like, it might require a lot of practice to then it to become like a more of a default habitual thing instead of feeling like it's a forceful thing. 'cause obviously he was there to like force me.

[00:46:04] Mm-hmm. And now sometimes I do stuff that I have to force myself. Mm-hmm. Like I, I have to apply the force on myself. And again, not in a bad way. More of like, Hey, I know I can do this. What's the problem here? Like, correct. Like even that, that pink one 

[00:46:17] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:46:17] Mike: In the corner where you saw me and I had to go like put my back against the wall.

[00:46:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:46:21] Mike: I was scared of it, but I was like, yo, I have to force myself to do it because I know I can. 

[00:46:25] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:46:25] Mike: I have to understand how to do it. Okay. So it was like, like I want to use that force towards myself. Yeah. But again, not every day. Yeah. Some days I come in, I'm more tired. Correct. More lazy. Correct. Not focused.

[00:46:36] Correct. I'm overthinking stuff, like whatever. I have my excuses reasons. Right. Yeah. Um, and my head's not in, and I can't force push myself that day or force myself. Yeah. But I do understand the importance and I do want to adapt it more because I know that I have more than I, uh, than I'm showing like not just in the rock climbing, but in life.

[00:46:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:46:55] Mike: Yeah. Because of my bad habits that I've been caring for a long time. Yeah. So, yeah. Okay. What do 

[00:47:02] Toliy: you think 

[00:47:02] Mike: to, 

[00:47:03] Toliy: I mean, like, I don't know, like in what context you guys were talking about, what you were saying. Well, we started with the wisdom part. Well, no, that part. Yeah. But when you switch the force, like 

[00:47:14] Eldar: mm-hmm.

[00:47:16] Toliy: You didn't really like 

[00:47:16] Eldar: introduce the, uh, scenario. I feel like

[00:47:23] maybe it was easier for you guys to follow '

[00:47:25] Toliy: cause you spoke about it before. 

[00:47:27] Eldar: Hmm. 

[00:47:27] Toliy: But it's like, yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I understand, um, to, to, to some degree, like yeah, the concept of like using force or stuff like that. But, but I dunno like what, what question 

[00:47:43] Eldar: there is around. Okay. Mike, you think there's any other questions around the the thing force?

[00:47:49] Mike: No, 

[00:47:50] Eldar: no, 

[00:47:51] Mike: no, no. I don't, I don't have anything. 

[00:47:53] Eldar: Yeah. I think that the concept is interesting and I think that, like I said, uh, if we are able to identify, um, I mean forces like, you know, don't teach one that to ask. Mm-hmm. Right. Concept, right? Yeah. 

[00:48:06] Mike: Um, I think it's a, it is like a. Being forceful, identifying when you're not doing things the way they should be done.

[00:48:15] Again, like I always go back to the Yeah. In a accordance to the truth. Yeah. Don't be impatient. Be if you wanna be forceful, that's opposite of impatient, right? That's right. Yeah. Like, uh, that's one big example that I, that just came to like that. Just that No, yeah. I'm thinking about That's a good example.

[00:48:28] Yeah. Patience 

[00:48:29] Eldar: and forcing 

[00:48:30] Mike: something is the perfect example of you want, you want something like, uh, yeah. To happen in your life. I don't know. You wanna lose weight, don't force it. Just fucking be patient and Yeah. Lose the weight. Mm-hmm. Like get a regular thing or, yeah. I don't know. Take your time. Take your time.

[00:48:43] Like we all have, we have many different attachments. Mm-hmm. And I think a lot of times we force certain things and then we can get frustrated because things are not going that way. Yeah. Um, yeah. 

[00:48:59] Eldar: Yeah. And I think that, uh, not forcing things and like you said, you know, when you said the patience thing mm-hmm.

[00:49:04] Came to mind is that. Uh, in order to be patient. Right. It also, the byproduct of being patient is to be able to, uh, focus and pay attention. 

[00:49:14] Mm-hmm. You know, what 

[00:49:14] totally said before. 

[00:49:15] Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:16] You know, and I think that that's crucial when it comes to our path to wisdom. 

[00:49:21] Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:22] I think it's huge, you know, but again, a patience is not like, it's not sexy.

[00:49:28] Yeah. It's not, you know what I mean? But it's the sexiest thing I can think of. Yeah. Because why wouldn't you want to start paying attention to really squeeze everything out out of every moment. Mm-hmm. Right? Because every moment packs a crazy punch in your life. Mm-hmm. Right. Only if you paid attention.

[00:49:47] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:49:47] Eldar: Like, it's a fucking paradoxical thing again. 

[00:49:49] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:50] Eldar: But like, it's not sexy, but it's the sexiest thing. Mm-hmm. What, you know how, no. 

[00:49:56] Toliy: That's why I think the, the concept of, uh, of like having like, um. They, they say that, right? That having like, uh, desires is a bad thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like, ha, having desires is a good thing.

[00:50:11] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:12] Toliy: Like, I think we, we should, uh, reverse it now. Oh, going forward. Okay. Like, having desires is a good thing because like, um, itll 

[00:50:20] Eldar: expedite the suffering. 

[00:50:21] Toliy: Well, well, like, yeah. I mean, like, like how many times do people want to do things? Like they have the desire and then they go down the path of trying to figure it out or do it, and then like, they end up either not doing it or it not being successful comes from Yeah.

[00:50:35] Not, not being in it. Right. But like, you're the one that like had the nerve to give the, to, to like say the desire or have the desire. So you're gonna prove to yourself whether you're gonna be paying attention and like a good student and patient and like, or not, right? 

[00:50:52] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:50:52] Toliy: But the fact that you had the desire, like you, you, you always pay.

[00:50:56] When you have like, the desire. Yeah. Right. Like, whether, whether you get what you want out of it or not, you still have to pay 

[00:51:02] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:51:03] Toliy: Like, you know, or what you said, and you're gonna either pay to someone else or you're gonna like 

[00:51:08] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:51:09] Toliy: Uh, or, or to, to, uh, yourself, you know? Um, so yeah. Like, have as many of desires you want.

[00:51:18] No problem. Go for it. Go for it. Yeah. Like, yeah. What a setup. You know, like, what, what's the worst that's gonna happen? You're gonna suffer a bunch because you have all these desires. Like, that's like enjoying 

[00:51:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:51:32] Toliy: Yeah. That, that, that's like the choice that you're, you're looking to make. Yeah. I think that like, um, like, um, I think that like, as you go down this path, it's like there, there's like some kind of like mindset shift, mind mindset shift from like discovering to like uncovering.

[00:51:49] Mm-hmm. You know, like you're not like. Trying to find something like new anymore, you're trying to like uncover what's going on, you know? 

[00:51:58] Eldar: Hmm. 

[00:51:59] Toliy: So that like, you can act accordingly. Um, with, with it. I think that that's like the, like to me the disconnect with like the subconscious and like the, the habits is that like, because you're unaware of what's subconsciously going on and you're unaware of your habits, you're constantly trying to find something, like you're looking for something, but like, you, you're, you're, like, once you get more information and once you're able to bridge that, that gap and like, um, like uncover your habits, uncover like what's subconsciously happening, then like, then like, you then discover that there's nothing to discover, right?

[00:52:38] Yeah. Like, it, like, it's like, um, it's a weird scenario because like, yeah. If you cannot see what's going on, then like, you are, you're, you're, you're kind of like tapped on that subject, right? So you wanna. You're trying to find something new out, for example. Right? Yeah. There's nothing new to find out. 

[00:52:56] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:52:56] Toliy: You just don't know it yet. 

[00:52:57] Eldar: You just don't know it yet. 

[00:52:58] Toliy: So you, you, you, you go on like this, like empty journey of trying to chase your own tail. Yeah. Try trying to find something that that's not there versus like uncovering what's actually happening and what actually, like, like once you uncover what actually is happening, then like it's obvious that like if you're hitting like, oh, like your head against the wall and you can't see the wall, but like you're hitting it, if you can uncover there's a wall there, well maybe you could step to the left or step to the right, but like until you do that, you will continue to like suffer with the same things.

[00:53:33] Eldar: Hmm. You think so this is universal advice for all human beings, you said 

[00:53:39] probably not. No. Now, no.

[00:53:45] Okay. So for who? 

[00:53:47] Toliy: I mean for like, for the, like the general public? No, for like those who like have a desire to like think, ah, a strong enough desire to think ah, mm-hmm. That they, um, con like that, that, that they're consciously putting in efforts to, to think and then to pay attention and to do all that stuff.

[00:54:06] Mm-hmm. Because I think to like, to most it's gonna be like useless advice, but what maybe 

[00:54:15] Mike: for this lifetime, maybe not the next Yeah. You know, I think suffering eventually blind suffering eventually will turn into conscious suffering. 

[00:54:30] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:54:31] Mike: You know 

[00:54:31] Eldar: what I mean? Like totally said. Yeah. Um, like I know all the shit.

[00:54:35] Mm-hmm. 

[00:54:36] But I'm struggling with bridging the gap between the two. Mm-hmm. 

[00:54:38] And I'm 

[00:54:38] suffering the most because I know, so his ignorance is no longer bliss. 

[00:54:42] Mm-hmm. 

[00:54:43] Right. Like for someone who's not conscious, right. Mm-hmm. Not consciously suffering, like you said. Yeah. Whose ignorance is still 

[00:54:49] bliss. 

[00:54:49] Mm-hmm.

[00:54:51] That's interesting. He's a sinner. He's a sinner.

[00:55:00] Okay. Um, 

[00:55:02] Toliy: yeah, I think it's ultimately easier for most people to like to, to like find a way to deal with how things are 

[00:55:10] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:55:11] Toliy: Than to like, fix them, like Yeah, yeah, yeah. To like have like the, uh, like the, the thick skin and like the resolve to like, go through figuring them out. Like, 

[00:55:21] Eldar: wow, that's 

[00:55:22] Toliy: interesting.

[00:55:23] You know, it's like, it's easier to just So are you 

[00:55:25] Eldar: saying adaptability almost supersedes Yeah. Thinking, yeah. Wow. I, 

[00:55:31] Toliy: I, I probably agree with you. Yeah. Like my, like for most people, like, like my, my dad kind of has like this like thing that like, like, like he has this like, life kind of sucks thing. Yeah. And that's it.

[00:55:43] And then he just finds a way to adapt within this sucky life. Yeah. The sucky life, but nothing really changes. Yeah. But, but there's, but like, it's easier just to like, adapt to your circumstances. Mm-hmm. Like, yeah. The, the, the, the, the word here is like, um, circumstances that, like, you have circumstances, you know?

[00:56:03] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:56:03] Toliy: So if you have like a circumstance, like it's like, make the best of it. 

[00:56:07] Eldar: That's it, you 

[00:56:08] Toliy: know, but it's, but like, it's, it, like, it's an it, like, it's like it is what it is type thing. 

[00:56:13] Eldar: Mm-hmm. It is what it is. Yeah. 

[00:56:14] Toliy: Yeah. Uh, because it is what it is. Like that means you can't change, change it inherently. And once you accept that, the next step is just to like, adapt within it, you know?

[00:56:27] It, it's like, for example, like the. Like, um, like, and obviously adapting is not a fucking, the desirable outcome for a philosopher. No, no, no, no. Okay. There, the, the, like, adapting is not, like, is not a, an option, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's like a person with like very low skill, for example, getting paid a low amount and being upset that they're like, they're, they're part of like a, uh, a capitalistic economy, right?

[00:56:58] Yeah. That operates on like, like 

[00:57:01] Eldar: slave labor. 

[00:57:02] Toliy: Well, like, well, it operates on like Yeah. There's certain people that are gonna make much less, and certain people are gonna make much more, like the people that are in the know more about how things work and stuff like that. They're probably going to make more, and the people who are like not, and not willing to figure out, they're probably going to make less.

[00:57:20] Make less. 

[00:57:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:57:21] Toliy: Like if you're not willing like, like it's like a taxes, right? If you're not willing to understand or read the rule book or like. Have enough money to hire the right people that, that, that do know it, you're probably gonna pay more in taxes. Right. Or the people who know the rules or have enough money to hire people who do know the rules 

[00:57:39] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:57:39] Toliy: Are probably gonna pay less. 

[00:57:41] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:57:41] Toliy: So it's like, like you're, yeah. 

[00:57:44] Eldar: So is the system perfect, um, this weeding out system that you described? 

[00:57:49] Toliy: Like, well, you know, survival of the fittest, mike. Yeah. It's a survival of the fittest system. Yeah. I mean, like, I don't think that, um, like however mankind was like, created or like, like I don't think the purpose of it was to, to suffer, you know?

[00:58:04] Um, but I think like the, the way that most people live their lives, they, they, they make it out to be that. Yeah. That's what it's, you know, I don't think that everybody was put here to like, suffer, but, uh, most people will for, for a very long time, if not the whole time, you know? Um. And that there, but, but there definitely are opportunities.

[00:58:28] You know, like, like there, there was a, there was a guy like, well, more than a thousand years ago that like gave plenty of answers to plenty of things. Yeah. And like, yeah. Those who choose not to pay attention to them will, will suffer. You know? Damn. It's not like no one told you like, it, like, like, it's not like you, you can't find out what to do, you know?

[00:58:54] Eldar: Like, but can you argue for them a little bit and say like, maybe they don't have eyes and ears or all hands. Oh 

[00:58:57] Toliy: yeah. Well, yeah. Like that, that's the thing is that like, like parents will just, like parents who are, who don't get this right, will just continue to make more, more, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, uh, that, that line, that that guy said, you know, like the, um, the, uh, the seal team guy, when they asked him, you know, like, was it hard to, to like, um.

[00:59:23] Kill like those kids and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. Like when you were, when like all the ISIS stuff was going on. Yeah. And like they were like invading those areas. 

[00:59:29] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:59:30] Toliy: You know, it was like, was it difficult to kill those kids? And then he, he said that like, uh, um, uh, rats are not like rat rats don't just turn into like, like a white fluffy bunnies, you know, like the rats are gonna make more rats.

[00:59:44] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:59:45] Toliy: You know? 

[00:59:46] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:59:46] Toliy: So like that, that, that, that's just like an ongoing thing that happens. So he said that like, no, like this young kid is gonna grow up to be a terrorist, create crazy evil and be a terrorist, you know? Mm-hmm. So like, no, I didn't feel bad. He said, that's wild. Killing them. It's wild. 

[01:00:02] Eldar: You know, you might get canceled for that, but.

[01:00:05] Yeah, we'll rock with you, you know? 

[01:00:07] Toliy: Well, I didn't 

[01:00:07] Eldar: say it, so No, I know you didn't say it. Yeah. But you admire it. 

[01:00:12] Toliy: No, I don't admire it. Oh, no. I definitely found, found, like, found his justification interesting. Yeah. You know, um, because Yeah. But you see where he's coming from. Yeah. Well, I, I, I see where he is coming from in the sense of like, non thinkers operate through a obedience.

[01:00:27] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:00:29] Toliy: You know? Yeah. And probably people who get like radicalized or live in that kinda world. Yeah. They, they're like more robotic in the way that they move, in the way that they go about doing things. 

[01:00:38] Eldar: Perceive the world about 

[01:00:40] Toliy: perceive things. Like, they're not even thinking about it. They're, they're following orders.

[01:00:43] They're obedient. They, they, they learn something, you know? 

[01:00:46] Eldar: Yeah, 

[01:00:47] yeah. 

[01:00:47] Toliy: Um, 

[01:00:48] Eldar: so like, yeah. That is interesting. Yeah. 

[01:00:56] But it's interesting. We have so many different, like, I mean, innate skills almost, right? Like this adaptability that he is talking about, like, look. If, you know, you kind of like suffer, you figure out your suffering or whatever you, there's, you know, there's ways you can think about stuff and change or you can just adapt 

[01:01:11] mm-hmm.

[01:01:11] You know, and find Huh. A creative way to describe your situation. Right. Circumstances and stuff like that in order to adapt to it and just kind of, it is what it is kind of scenario for you. Mm-hmm. And live that out. 

[01:01:24] Mike: But I think it's, uh, this is part of the process. It is part of the gig. I also think that, I don't think that we were born enlightened, and then over the time people just became stupid.

[01:01:34] Yeah. Because I don't think you could ever become one Enlightened. Yes. And I think that our, our mission here Yeah. Has people is to reach that place, is to reach the enlightenment, not the other way around. 

[01:01:45] Eldar: I agree with that too. I agree with that too. And I think that that's, this is exactly what's going on, that like, there's levels to it and there's different people, different areas of the world.

[01:01:54] Mm-hmm. And there's different, you know, timelines for everyone. 

[01:01:58] Mm-hmm. 

[01:01:59] You know, everyone's on their own different timeline, on their own different level. Mm-hmm. Right. Uh, here we have ai, you know, somewhere in Africa they have no water, no clean water. 

[01:02:08] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:02:09] Eldar: Right. For example. And that's also part of the gig.

[01:02:12] Yeah. You know, the world is big even though it feels small sometimes, you know, with the internet, stuff like that. But the world is big and everybody's on a different level. 

[01:02:21] Mike: Yeah. Everybody's in different, like, uh, part of the journey. 

[01:02:24] Eldar: Yeah, 

[01:02:25] Mike: yeah. You know, but I think that's, that's, that's how it's supposed to be.

[01:02:31] Yeah. The design is the way it's designed. It can't be wrong. 

[01:02:34] Eldar: It can't be wrong. I agree. I agree with you. We talked about this before. Yeah. I don't think, yeah. God, nature, whatever it is, I don't think they got it wrong. It's true. 

[01:02:43] Toliy: No, 

[01:02:43] Eldar: that's right. 

[01:02:44] Toliy: So like, if it can't be wrong, then you need to have a pursuit to go figure it out.

[01:02:47] I agree. I agree with that. What, what else are you gonna do? 

[01:02:50] Eldar: What else are you gonna do? Yeah. In order to do what? Ultimately become wise and have fun. 

[01:02:56] Toliy: Yeah. Like, don't, don't you wanna find out 

[01:02:59] Mike: what attended, you know, like, it's like Yeah. Yeah. Yesterday or yesterday or today. Uh, some. Oh, no. Today I was listening to a podcast, same one.

[01:03:08] And the guy who's like, um, was talking about it, he's like, yeah, wanna, when I was a kid, I was the worst kid. Mm-hmm. I used to get whipped all the time by my parents, by the teachers. He's from Scotland. Mm-hmm. You know this. And he's like, I was just a terrible kid. You know, I just never listened. I did whatever I want and I don't, and I don't remember where he took it, or maybe I didn't get to the point where he took, took it.

[01:03:31] He said, but what it made me think about is like,

[01:03:37] is it the kids who question and don't follow the rules because they don't like, believe it? They don't understand it? Is that a benefit to them? Like, um, because maybe we knew that whatever the parents were saying was like, yo, this is fucking up my shit. You're fucking up my phone here. Yeah. I don't wanna do this.

[01:03:56] I don't wanna go to this. Like, do this at this time or do this at this time. Yeah. Whatever the parents try to put us on, you know. Yeah. Tell us how to do certain things, right. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I was like, uh, also in trouble in school as well. You two, you know, like we're always getting in trouble. We met in detention.

[01:04:13] We met in detention, yeah. For coming class. Yeah. Yeah. So I wonder like, I guess. I don't wanna say we're rebels against society weren't like some fucking bad, bad kids weren't doing anything crazy, like killing people or hurting people. But we just kind of rebelled against certain things that we didn't make sense and didn't fit like our narrative.

[01:04:30] That's right. Or what we wanted to continue doing. 

[01:04:32] Eldar: 100% we talked about this. 

[01:04:33] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:04:34] Eldar: Yeah. So 

[01:04:34] Mike: that, it made me think about that. Like 

[01:04:36] Eldar: that was our 

[01:04:37] Mike: protection. 

[01:04:37] Eldar: Yeah. Right. That, that, that was our protection. That almost was our guide in the moment of childhood. Yeah. We didn't know why the fuck we were like that.

[01:04:45] Mm-hmm. We just were. Mm-hmm. Like the shit didn't make sense. Yeah. Right. To sit in school and not have fun. Mm-hmm. Me and you were the clowns. Yeah. You know what I mean? We made fun and we had, we had fun. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. So, yeah. And I think till this day, I think I'm trying to preserve that. Yeah. And if, you know, if I have the ability or a chance to pass that on, this is exactly what I'll pass on.

[01:05:07] Yeah. And the interesting part is, you know, what else just came to mind? Mm-hmm. Anastasia. And she also talked about this. Yeah. Right. I remember. And in those books, right? Yeah. Where, when the kid is born. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Our job as parents, right. To our best ability. Stay away from the damn kid. 

[01:05:24] Mike: Yeah. Not to get in the way, not in the getaway of their development.

[01:05:27] Eldar: Yeah. Yes. Let them look at the stars, let 'em try to perceive the world and try not to tell him your worldview. 

[01:05:33] Mike: Yeah. But it's such a, like, from our parents' perspective, I can imagine such a hard thing to do. Are you kidding me? 

[01:05:40] Yeah. 

[01:05:41] Gary's 

[01:05:41] Eldar: camp is a fucking establishment. Yeah. It's a sick establishment. If anybody's wondering who Gary is, it's Mike's dad.

[01:05:47] Yeah. And he has a camp. Yes. And Mike came outta that camp. Yeah. Or maybe not 

[01:05:54] Toliy: 1, 1, 1 thing I just remembered. Mm-hmm. Um, like, um, I started, um, to like listen to, to the end stage of books. 

[01:06:03] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:06:04] Toliy: And there's someone on YouTube that, um, like. Some girl, she, she reads them out loud. 

[01:06:11] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:06:12] Toliy: You know, like the whole book.

[01:06:14] Okay. And like, one video is like, I don't know, say like nine to like, whatever amount of hours could be like 12, 15 hours. Yeah. So you just like play it the whole time and mm-hmm. She goes chapter by chapter and just reads it out loud. In Russian 

[01:06:26] Mike: or English? In English. Oh. Mm-hmm. Oh, wow. 

[01:06:28] Toliy: Yeah. Oh, good. I started listening to it and, you know, she reads well, like it's clear, it's fine.

[01:06:34] Um, you know, um, everything's good. And then, um, like, and, and, and like she has her own channel. Mm-hmm. And these videos are from like 10 years ago or like, you know, like they're oh, seven, seven plus years. 

[01:06:49] Eldar: Okay. 

[01:06:49] Toliy: You know, and, uh, about like, I think it was like two weeks ago, um, I, I started cooking like a dinner and usually when I'm doing stuff like that I'll put my AirPods in mm-hmm.

[01:07:00] And I'll start listening to something. Could be sports, could be like whatever UFC stuff. Mm-hmm. And, um, because I'm follow her channel. A video popped up of her. Right. And she looked like disheveled and like crazy. And I just, I, I never watched any of her content. I click on it and she's crazy crying and she's like raging, like she's going nuts, you know?

[01:07:24] And I'm like, what the fuck is this? You know? Yeah. This the person that like was reading those books, was reading those books, Uhhuh. And this person is like, like, she, like, she's sounded like a gunner. And basically like, I didn't watch the whole video 'cause it was hard. 'cause she, she's crying for like 30 minutes straight.

[01:07:38] Imagine 

[01:07:39] Eldar: what the fuck? 

[01:07:40] Toliy: Yeah. On live. It's on YouTube. I could link it to you. Wow. You know? Okay. Like I listened to like 10 minutes of it and afterwards I'm like, yo, this is like, you know, like, yeah. Like, she's just like in, what was the story? Despair. Um, so part of what, like, based on what I'm understanding is that like she, I don't know, but, and again, she read like she has YouTube video of every single book Reading Out Loud.

[01:08:00] So she read these books. So we talk about like Yeah. Knowledge and like having the information, right? Yeah. And. Based on what I understood, based on what she was upset about, is that she got, like, she's at a point where like the people around her are calling her crazy 

[01:08:16] Eldar: about the books. Including her 

[01:08:16] Toliy: mom? No, in just the way that she perceives life and she thinks things okay.

[01:08:20] And she got to a point where like she feels that like, uh, the world is like a simulation. 

[01:08:26] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:08:26] Toliy: And she found out about this basically. 

[01:08:28] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:08:29] Toliy: And then when she tries to tell people about it, they think that she's nuts. And then she thinks that like, there's, like, they working in like, like there's a force working in the background against her mm-hmm.

[01:08:39] Against her to like prevent her from like waking everybody up. Oh. And now she's upset about that. 'cause everyone's calling her crazy. Yeah, of course. Nobody's understanding that. Yeah. Like I could link you the video. It sounds 

[01:08:48] Eldar: like you need to reach out to her, bro. Yeah. 

[01:08:50] Toliy: I'm a listener, so I'm like, yo, what the fuck is going on?

[01:08:52] Yeah. And then I'm like, and then like, yeah, it got me thinking like the person, did 

[01:08:56] Eldar: she do a good job fucking reading though? Yeah. 

[01:08:58] Toliy: Shit. I mean, she's reading it fine. Like, she's like, oh damn, like that. So I'm like this person. Read out loud, it means that she read all of these books before doing this. Right.

[01:09:09] Probably. It's not like someone just says like, Hey, I'm gonna try this book and I'm gonna, from day one start reading out loud. It's not reading your French, it means they probably read them. Yeah. They were so good. Yeah. That they decided that they want to get like Yeah, reread them. Yeah. Yeah. Her name is Jessica.

[01:09:22] Okay. You know, um, that she wants to reread them and read them aloud. Does she have, does she have Harry Armpits? I'm not sure. Probably. Potentially, right? Mm-hmm. And like, yeah, she's in like the healing space for sure. Like Crystal. She does like Sure. Crystal. Like I started through her shit. Crystals. Yeah.

[01:09:36] Yeah. She, she's in that. Yeah. You know, but nonetheless, she probably read multiple times every single book. Yeah. With so much wisdom, so much information. Yeah. So much great things, but. Clearly like, missed the, missed the mark. Clearly missed the mark. 

[01:09:51] Eldar: Oh yeah. This is not just one example, obviously. Yeah, that's So now 

[01:09:53] Toliy: like if, like, if El I'm sure were to ask her like, Hey, like, do you remember chapter seven in book six?

[01:09:58] Yeah. This, she might like remember, be able to tell you like, but not, I remember they're talking about that. Yeah. But she may not have understood those things. She may not like Yes. Properly might have landed correctly. Mm-hmm. But the information is there. She could probably recite, I mean like, she probably read each book multiple times.

[01:10:13] She could probably, you could probably bring up any chapter and she'll know like, damn, what it's, 

[01:10:17] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:10:18] Toliy: You know? Yeah. And like she's, she's weeping in the video's. That's wild. Imagine 30 minutes of a girl in nonstop crying Young girl. Yeah. Well, like relatively young. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you know? 

[01:10:30] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:10:31] Toliy: And I'm watching this, I'm like, what the fuck?

[01:10:32] Caught me a completely off guard because I've never watched any of her content. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Other than like 10 years ago books that she's reading that, that like, she, well this wasn't 10 years ago. This is like now. No, now I'm saying though, 10 years ago the books, but Yeah. But I haven't watched any of our other, other, other content.

[01:10:45] Yeah. Right. And then like, um, like I'm, I'm listening to it and like she's going fucking nuts. Fucking nuts. Yeah. You know, so like, yeah. It's like, like all that information was there, like, you, like that didn't, that didn't happen to you, you know, for example, or you like, where you're like, you know. Yeah. No, but I, I 

[01:11:04] Eldar: also see how that does happen or, you know.

[01:11:07] Yeah. The realization. I've been there, I've been, I've been there where like I've read the stuff and I was like, yo, are you guys serious? Like mm-hmm. Everybody should read this. Yeah. And I, and I think that is like a, like a almost a natural thing that people go through. Yeah. I think the 

[01:11:21] Toliy: realization of good one, one of the first few feelings is probably anger 

[01:11:25] Eldar: maybe a little bit too.

[01:11:25] Yeah. You know, until you, you misunderstood. Yeah. 

[01:11:28] Toliy: Like you have to keep going with it. And like, you, you have to learn that like lesson about that. Like, hey, like you have to find a way to communicate. This is actually good for you right now. Yes. For you only right now. Yeah. But for someone else, it may be completely correct off.

[01:11:40] Not ready. Completely off. Yeah. No. Which is okay. 

[01:11:44] Eldar: Which is okay. Yeah. Again. Yeah. She missed the market sounds like. Yeah. 

[01:11:48] Mike: You know? Yeah. Maybe like, uh, she didn't feel empowered from the books and she was more on the depressed and side of like, oh, the world's fucked up place. Instead of like, yo, but my world is not.

[01:11:58] No, no, no, no. I 

[01:11:59] Eldar: think that maybe based on what he told me right now is that, um, she got empowered by the books. Mm-hmm. But she wants to then go and empower with force others. Oh, she wants to hammer. Yeah. She wants to hammer those people. Right. And those people did not see the same thing of, because they're not there, like you said, in that moment.

[01:12:14] Right. Yeah. So they're not gonna, I mean, she wants to think about it with Catherine for the last 14 years. Right. I've recommended those books from day one. Mm-hmm. She has not read not one book. Okay. Yeah. And I'm not gonna force it down her throat. Yeah. Like, if she's not ready, she doesn't want it. Cool.

[01:12:28] Sometimes she picks it up, sometimes she puts it down like it's on her time. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? It would be wrong for me to force that. Yeah. Again, and if you miss the mark of understanding, I mean, I also have a background in philosophy too. So like, I've studied a lot of shit. You know, I, I've respect Buddha a lot, you know, Eastern philosophy and compassion is huge, you know?

[01:12:45] So, um, yeah. Those things can be, um, felt in such a way where you want to share it, you want to give it to others, but if they don't see you the same way, they don't, if they're not grasping yet, you're gonna feel like you're being judged. Mm-hmm. You are gonna feel like you're crazy and nobody else understands you.

[01:13:02] A hundred percent. Yeah. I think we all spoke about this, what you, what you said 

[01:13:06] Mike: in our own personal experiences, like Yeah. A lot of people when that, that we, uh, ourselves. Yeah. Like me, you totally, I think we all said the same thing, kind of like, yeah. Yeah. Can't believe people are not 

[01:13:16] Toliy: the paper. 

[01:13:17] Eldar: Okay. Um, yeah.

[01:13:22] Yeah. Sorry. That's all right. Um, thank you for forcing your anxiety upon us. Thank you. 

[01:13:29] Toliy: No, but she was actually 

[01:13:31] Eldar: okay. 

[01:13:32] All right. It's not that bad. She ate worse things than that. You want, you want me to tell you? Okay, that's fine. Plastic and things that, yeah. This paper, paper is like ous. If you eat a piece of napkin, nothing's gonna happen to you.

[01:13:43] Mike: Can you try it? It's a piece 

[01:13:45] Eldar: of wood. Alright, so gimme some concluding thoughts on these topics. We talked about wisdom, we talk about the force, you know, and fun. Fun. Yeah. What do you think, Mike? Your, your original question in, in outside was like almost like, ah, what the fuck? You know? Mm-hmm. How can we not bridge this damn gap between knowledge and wisdom?

[01:14:06] Mike: Yeah. You know, because I thought it was like, um, coming from a different place, but you said it's not you. Like we where it's coming from, not necessarily from that. Yeah. Uh, I mean, yeah, I think the fun thing is important. 

[01:14:22] Eldar: It's an important gauge. I think it's a huge thing. It is a huge, I don't think that this is what you can strive for, right?

[01:14:26] Mm-hmm. Like you said, like, Hey, should we like focus on having fun all the time? I'm like, I don't think it's possible. I don't think focusing on fun is a possible thing. Mm-hmm. Just like you shouldn't force, it's also force. If there's force behind, oh, that's how we got to the conversation. If there's force behind it mm-hmm.

[01:14:39] It almost negates the thing itself. 

[01:14:42] Toliy: Fun, fun, fun. I view as like a, like a mastery. Yeah. You know, like, can't just like Yeah. Become a master. 

[01:14:49] Eldar: Yeah. You know, like it's almost a byproduct we're talking about, right? Yeah. It's a 

[01:14:53] Toliy: byproduct. 

[01:14:54] Eldar: It's a byproduct of certain things, of good habits. Go, 

[01:14:56] Toliy: go tell someone, hey.

[01:14:57] Like, go and produce in your life, but, but have fun while doing it. Yes. Zero chance. Zero chance. Zero chance. 

[01:15:03] Eldar: Zero chance. 

[01:15:04] Toliy: Yeah. You know, only the person that's like on the ne next level flow is gonna have fun. Yeah. Um, it's not gonna be very fun to uncover and discover and like apply any of these new concepts.

[01:15:16] Mike: Yeah. It's 

[01:15:16] Toliy: probably gonna be a bit. Pain painful instead. A 

[01:15:19] Eldar: hundred percent. 

[01:15:22] Toliy: Because I think that like, first the conscious, like, uh, the conscious like, uh, um, discoveries and like reformatting has to happen and that's gonna always be pain painful because you've been like subconsciously doing things for a very long time.

[01:15:42] For a long time. I agree. 

[01:15:46] Eldar: So my final thoughts is, you know, I'm gonna run off of what totally just said, right? Um, if you wanna become wise, if there is such a thing mm-hmm. If there is such a thing as one thing to become wise. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. 

[01:15:59] Start with fucking paying attention. Right. Um, how to want to pay attention.

[01:16:08] Mike: Fuck. I don't know how to sell that to you. In order to have, in order to have the funds to pay attention, Uhhuh, you have, you have to, uh, you have to budget. The fun. Yeah. To pay attention or to pay attention. Ah. You know, like Yeah. If you have too much going on. Yeah. How can you pay attention? You can't, you know, you can't.

[01:16:26] Yeah. Because all your shit's tied up in different, you get attention to other places. That's right. That's right. You, 

[01:16:32] Eldar: I can't make fun, fun paying attention. Sexy or fun. Like, I mean, like, to me it very, is it, it is because I extract the most amount of fun 

[01:16:39] Mike: mm-hmm. Through 

[01:16:40] Eldar: paying attention. 

[01:16:40] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:16:41] Eldar: Right.

[01:16:41] Especially within conversations, you know, because there's so much cool shit that you can do within a conversation. The reactions that you can get from people. Mm-hmm. The, the words that you can bend, the jokes that you can crack, right. The challenges that you can, you know, uncover and then challenge other people to go to the next level.

[01:17:00] I mean, like, this is cool shit, but in order to get to all those things and receive all this fucking shit, you gotta pay attention. 

[01:17:06] Mm-hmm. 

[01:17:07] And without paying attention, you're not gonna get there. You're just gonna be focused on a very specific, narrow-minded outcome. Of something that you've conjured in your mind that somehow was important at some point in your life, but time and time it shows that the more you, you know, grow, you learn and you mature, you realize those, those things are not that important at all.

[01:17:30] You know, attaching yourself to that stuff. So it's definitely a loop, but there's definitely a way out. 

[01:17:38] Mm-hmm. 

[01:17:39] Start by raising awareness and paying attention. And what do you what? Raising awareness on what? Well, you're pain, start with that. Mm-hmm. Because that's the thing, that's the easiest thing to start paying attention to.

[01:17:51] Yeah. Pay attention to your pain. The fact that you are in pain 

[01:17:55] Toliy: can, can, can you only pay attention to pain? Um, if you, um, if, if you actually believe that it's not supposed to be happening. 

[01:18:07] Eldar: Can you pay attention to only to pain if you don't believe it's not supposed to be happening. 

[01:18:10] Toliy: No, no, no. Can, can you only pay attention to pain if you believe that it's not supposed to be happening?

[01:18:17] Mike: Yeah, but who actually believes that it's supposed to be happening? His dad 

[01:18:19] Toliy: Plenty, plenty of people. Oh, he gave an example, right? They, they say like, for example, pledging. It's meant to be, it's supposed to suck right now. Yeah, 

[01:18:25] Eldar: yeah, yeah. Oh, no. Harris says it too. You got grind. Yeah, yeah, 

[01:18:27] Toliy: yeah. Like, right, right.

[01:18:28] Now is a grind time, for example. This is supposed to be bad, so you could later enjoy it. 

[01:18:32] Eldar: I think he's, I think you're right. The way he structured the question, I think you're right. The only way to pay attention is to actually What? Say that again. Say the way you said it, 

[01:18:39] Toliy: um, like, uh, is, is the only way to pay attention to your paint, because it's like you're, you're, you're saying, hey, like pay attention to your pain and be like sensitive about it.

[01:18:50] But again, like that to me is like, I don't know how many people are gonna like, understand that, right? Yeah. But like, that's like a natural, that response is natural. When you believe that it's not supposed to be this way, correct? Right. 

[01:19:01] Eldar: Well, you're telling me that the prerequisite is to say like, uh, you have pain, but also at the same time think that it's not supposed to be this way.

[01:19:09] So like, yeah. Like, no, I think that let's recognize that you have pain first, you know? 

[01:19:14] Toliy: Yeah. But like, you can recognize pain without knowing that it's not supposed to happen. Like, would you be upset, like, or like, not upset, but for example, like you have a bunch of birds shitting on your car mm-hmm. In your driveway, right?

[01:19:29] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:19:30] Toliy: Like, like what? What if you told us to Mike, and Mike was like, oh, you have a Tesla, and you're like, yeah. And you're like, well, uh, naturally owners who have Tesla, like those cars are built in a way, or do they attract birds? That shit on those cars? 

[01:19:45] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:19:45] Toliy: Like that's just supposed to happen. 

[01:19:47] Eldar: Mm. 

[01:19:47] Toliy: Are you ever gonna go find a solution for it or figure out even why it's happening or.

[01:19:53] Eldar: Well, if I believe him, probably not, but most likely I won't believe him. 

[01:19:56] Toliy: No, no. But I'm just saying if this, if this is what you're, 

[01:19:59] Eldar: the good thing is totally. The good thing is totally is that we have a soul. And what we define soul to be is the natural navigator towards the good and towards what's natural.

[01:20:10] And it is not natural for us to experience pain for prolong period of time. You know why? And we know this is because we constantly do what complain about it. And the more we complain about it, the more we're raising our hand to allow others externally. Mm-hmm. In our social dynamic or social circle is to tell you, like you telling your dad now, dad, what the fuck are you talking about?

[01:20:33] Shut your mouth and go enjoy your pain. And he's like, wait, what? You're trying to snap him out of it? Mm-hmm. You're trying to bring him out of that cave by raising awareness. Yeah. But then that he's in pain. Yeah. 

[01:20:42] Toliy: But then you need to have a prerequisite of people that know what's going on around you that can like check you and ask you like the PR or like things, but I'm saying that like.

[01:20:51] You as an individual. I think there's no way that think that 

[01:20:53] Eldar: we're, we are all wired, right? In such a way where we're, despite the fact that maybe you're not around him, who's gonna be able to tell him the right advice. You're gonna have your mom, who's a ham hog, who's gonna say, you should be doing this.

[01:21:05] Somebody's gonna keep throwing advices. Mm-hmm. Advice or something like that, right? To the point where either you shut the fuck up or you don't complain about it, you completely accept your fate. Or you come across an advice where finally you're like, wait, yeah, I can't have a better life. I should have a better life.

[01:21:22] Wait, it's not meant to be this way. And then you start asking questions. 

[01:21:25] Toliy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like, like from pain, they, they're like, complaining does happen, but like, most, like, I, I, I, I think at least like most advices is like, yo. Shut your mouth and like, like just get through it, you know, like, no, I think just do what you're going do.

[01:21:41] No, I think if 

[01:21:41] Eldar: you really paid attention right now, if you went and surveyed the room or whatever, whenever people are, you know, um, complaining, there's always somebody who's trying to like, help them with that complaint. 

[01:21:51] Mike: Well, it's a natural compassion 

[01:21:53] Eldar: thing. Yeah. I think that's built, that's automatic. Yeah.

[01:21:55] Trying to help others. Right. In a social dynamic, especially if they're family members. People we like, you know, we don't wanna see a lot of the 

[01:22:01] Mike: times we apply the compassion when it shouldn't be compassion. Yes. As 

[01:22:04] Eldar: well. We are definitely confused on a lot of the advice, unsolicited advice when it comes to it.

[01:22:08] But nonetheless, like I said, I think we're wired for that type of dynamic. 

[01:22:12] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:22:12] Eldar: So I think there is maybe even though totally might say, yeah, there's no progress at all. I think there's slowly, very tiny, tiny, tiny, I still do. 

[01:22:21] Toliy: Is that like when you experience pain, like you have to know that it's not supposed to be this way.

[01:22:26] And maybe that is by default, like, like the initial feelings, but based on how people like ba based on your understanding of how things work or what like. Like are like, uh, like yeah. Like how, how things operate and work will, will be based on whether you continue to explore that avenue or not. 

[01:22:45] Mike: I wonder also if, um, if it's a, not to say that that's an old dog, but you know, he might be an old dog.

[01:22:54] The older you get, the more, it's harder to come out of those ways, you know? Well, 

[01:22:58] Eldar: sure, sure. You know what I mean? Absolutely. 

[01:23:00] Mike: So if you come to a 20-year-old mm-hmm. Who's like more flexible. Yeah. Right. Uh, he may be more open to what you have to say and maybe more open to have an actual conversation where Yeah.

[01:23:15] If he, he's his, his dad, he might be a little bit more stuck in his ways, you know? For sure. But, but nonetheless, I do believe 

[01:23:22] Eldar: he can still make, I, he's not like, he's not a thinker. He could still think, I agree. Agree. He still has his faculties about him. Right. And I think that up until he still has his faculties and the ability to reason, I think there is ways that we can hundred percent maximize some of his pockets of freedom in the moments when he's pain free.

[01:23:37] A 

[01:23:37] Mike: hundred percent. No, I don't believe that. It's like a, it's a complete debt wash, but I just think it's a little bit harder as older. It probably is, you know, it probably 'cause of the being stuck in your ways, thinking again. Correct. The ignorance is thinking, you know, stuff, thinking, oh, I've been here 55 years, I know a lot, man.

[01:23:53] Yeah, yeah. Who are you to tell 

[01:23:54] Eldar: me? Yeah. And like I, we talked about it before that, you know, on a different podcast where we realized that, um. If you under certain impressions, perspectives about the world, uh, each perspective about the world, especially the wrong ones, carries a certain timeline. Yeah. That you have to live out.

[01:24:11] Right. If you are under the wrong impression completely, that might take a whole lifetime to undo. 

[01:24:16] Mm-hmm. 

[01:24:17] And if you need to suffer throughout your whole life just to prove yourself wrong and change, well then that's what it might take. 

[01:24:24] Mm-hmm. 

[01:24:26] Yeah. 

[01:24:27] Mike: No, I think that's 

[01:24:28] Eldar: normal though. 

[01:24:28] Mike: It might take a lifetime.

[01:24:29] Yeah. That's what I'm saying. There's nothing 

[01:24:30] Eldar: wrong with that. Depends on the perception, right? Yeah. Depends on the perceptions that you've adapt, adopted, mm-hmm. Into your lifestyle, into yourself. Right. And what you're living by. Yeah. You know, that's kind of the timeline then. 

[01:24:44] Mike: Yeah, I agree and I 

[01:24:45] Eldar: think it's okay.

[01:24:45] So, you know, the conclusion is, you know, we, we are exactly where we're supposed to be. Yeah. Can't be upset with that. That's right. Alright, thank you. Anything else? No. Alright, great.