181. Perfectionism's Trap: Why Creativity Feels Like a Curse

Do our high self-expectations paralyze our progress?

In this raw and introspective episode, Tom opens up about his "sobriety anxiety"—a cycle of fear, guilt, and perfectionism that causes him to jump in and out of creative projects like editing videos for "Harris is the Hook." Joined by friends Toliy, Eldar, and Mike, the group dissects Tom's struggles with accountability, past traumas, and delusional thinking, emphasizing the need for humility, mentorship, and actionable steps over endless self-sabotage. Through candid debates, humor, and tough love, they explore how to turn vague desires into real progress while questioning whether Tom's attachment to artistic ideals is helping or hindering his happiness.

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Chapters

• 1:29 Tom's Sobriety Anxiety
• 37:24 The Challenge of Accountability
• 45:21 Ego and Accountability
• 1:00:13 The Creative Process
• 1:22:57 The Role of Friends in Personal Growth
• 1:39:35 The Need for Mentorship and Life Guidance
• 1:47:57 Final Thoughts and Reflections

Transcript

[00:00:00] Tommy: On this week's episode, maybe the desire to be pulled into a material thing is there, but I really would like to know the essence of what I enjoy and let it feed that potential to do something great.

[00:00:12] Toliy: You are almost required a sense of humility that can actually put you in a position to actually learn.

[00:00:19] A requirement to learn is humility, but there are no requirements to living out a delusion. 

[00:00:25] Eldar: What is it that you actually like to do and want to do? And then if it's, it's that what you want to do, just do it. Don't fucking make it a goal. Just go and do it. Get some steam behind you by keep doing it if you like it.

[00:00:43] All right guys. We're welcoming Tom back. It's been a while. Yeah. It's good to see you for weeks. Yes. Months. It has been probably months, right? As Mike and I would say, uh, far how long, far he here did 

[00:00:54] Toliy: he, uh, did disappear for like, overall, like that one, um, drut head? I don't know. Probably a couple weeks. A couple months?

[00:01:03] No, it was more couple months. Mike. It was over a month, right? The first stretch? No. Was No, yeah. Just as the plate. No, it 

[00:01:07] Mike: was close. It was close to a month. But he would like pop in, like in and out. 

[00:01:11] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. But he went from like every day and I was like, holy shit. Tom's here every day. Yeah, yeah, too. Like Tom's a gunner.

[00:01:18] Eldar: Oh, Tom's got you saying that he was pulling a Bruce. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what a Bruce is. I thought you got 

[00:01:24] Toliy: kidnapped by some Harry Israelis. 

[00:01:28] Eldar: All right. Well, Tom, welcome back. Yeah, thank you. And, uh, based on what you said to me yesterday on the phone, uh, it seems like you have something to say and I am excited for that.

[00:01:36] So why don't you go ahead and introduce the topic 

[00:01:38] Toliy: and, and, and just for the record. Yeah. Tom could also say just kidding right now, right? And just kind of opt out. 

[00:01:44] Tommy: Yeah. 

[00:01:45] Toliy: Like I'll give you changed his mind. You know, 

[00:01:48] Tommy: he 

[00:01:49] Eldar: could definitely do that, but I think he does have something. Uh, I think he's been cracking at this something for a very long time and, um, um, he might be still cracking at it.

[00:01:57] I, 

[00:01:57] Tommy: I might even have a term for it right now. All right. I think it's called sobriety anxiety. All right. That's, I know it sounds weird. Okay. But more or less this kind of defines the problem that I'm kind of dealing with. Okay. And what is that and why are you here? Okay. So to unpack this, we started, uh, well, you know, I called you up yesterday.

[00:02:18] Mm-hmm. And I was like, Hey, look, you know, I, I think I'm ready to work on this project again. Mm-hmm. Come home, you know, um, you did use the word home and it was like, yeah. And it was like, you know, it, it was like I kind of came to this decision and it made sense to me. And, um, you know, I just, uh, it, I was kind of like reflecting on, um, on who I am, like my life and stuff.

[00:02:48] And, um, and yeah. And so that obviously is kind of complicated to introduce as a topic, but. The, uh, I don't know. What I've synthesized from this is that I want to know myself, and that's kind of what I wanted to discuss, um, because I don't know, some kind of mental calculation was going into making that choice to say like, you know, um, I wanna like jump back into this now.

[00:03:22] You know? Um, why do you find yourself jumping in and out so frequently? Oh, I, that's a good, that's a really good question. 

[00:03:31] Hmm. 

[00:03:33] So, to tie in with the idea of sobriety anxiety, this should answer the question. I think, 

[00:03:41] Toliy: I think that,

[00:03:46] I think that because, you know, I 

[00:03:49] Tommy: either fear things or I feel guilt or some attachment to the past. You know, I think about when I was younger using drugs. Um, I think about, uh, the journey of like, coming out of that. Um, and I, I kind of urge, urge myself to do things in a kind of mature or respectable way.

[00:04:16] Like, like I was saying to you at lunch today, you know, I kind of like maybe set high expectations. Yeah. And, um, and like thinking about passing time is just like grinding the gears in my mind. Hmm. You know, like time being aware that the time is passing. 

[00:04:37] Yeah. 

[00:04:38] Yeah. And, um, it, to me it's like, okay, well I'm, you know, this is life, you know, I'm dealing, uh, with life.

[00:04:50] Um, but like, I, I still kind of like go through this loop, you know? I mean, I, I, I want to give you a reasonable explanation. I wanna say, okay. You know, I've heard other people talk about this where it's like, you, you know, your, your work really attires you. Um, it exhausts you. And, you know, I mean, I, I've talked many times to you guys about wanting to do creative stuff, like writing a book.

[00:05:17] Um, I mean, not just wanting, but like learning about it. Uh, you know, actually doing some writing. Um, you know, I don't know. I think I've actually, like, I think I've actually done, um, I've, I mean, I put in a really good effort to try to be consistent about that, to like, learn, uh, through reading literature, taking notes on books that I read.

[00:05:39] Um, but it's weird. It's like, you know, um, I get this.

[00:05:47] You know, I don't know, like anybody else, I get tired, I guess, and I don't know, uh, you 

[00:05:52] Eldar: get tired and 

[00:05:53] Tommy: then you drop it and then you kind of come back to it. Right? Well, I mean, it really, it really depends. Like, yeah. It, it might take some time to, I don't know. I think about in terms of creativity, like it, if you're working on a project, it may, might take some time like to, to, um, to work things out.

[00:06:11] Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:13] Eldar: You know? But do you see how this is like an ongoing thing for you? Okay. 

[00:06:16] Tommy: But I do, I I do have a kind of, let's say, okay, let me, let me come up with like a, let me come up with a criticism of my, for my, of me let, right, so like, I'll come up with my own criticism of, of my own flaw. Like, I'll, I'll point out one of my flaws, basically.

[00:06:32] Toliy: That's what I'll do. 

[00:06:33] Tommy: Um, like, I take kind of creativity really as like this, um,

[00:06:43] this like in this unconscious way, I treat it as if it's work because I want it to be perceived by others as, um, you know, as like, um, valuable. Like a job or like, like, yeah. Valuable. Yeah. That works. Yeah. I, I think, I think that's how, I mean, I fail to connect creativity in my personal view of it today with, with the truth.

[00:07:17] With the truth of creativity. That is like true across all time for the time that I've been on this earth. So it's like I incorporate these things that I've learned by, attach myself to them, you know, like, you know, for as long as you've known me, have I not been trying to like, kind of grind my gears on becoming smarter or becoming, you know, perceived smarter or perceived better.

[00:07:43] Let, let me 

[00:07:43] Eldar: ask everyone this question. Do you guys think that, uh, because maybe he's learned so much or there's concepts that he's been tossing around in his head and maybe attach himself to some concepts that like, they're the things that actually holding him back. 'cause he keeps saying like, look, I've, I've learned and I've read so many books and I did all this stuff, and obviously in those books they were presented with ideologies, concepts and things and that he probably maybe esteems high enough or holds 'em to high regard where if he does not hold himself to those ideas or ideals, right?

[00:08:15] It's almost like a crippling thing where it's like, then I can't do anything. I shouldn't be doing it because I'm not good enough. 

[00:08:21] Tommy: Mm. Wow. Is 

[00:08:21] Eldar: it the parallel, is that the paralyzing factor here? 

[00:08:24] Mike: That's interesting. I never, I didn't, I mean, I never thought about it like that. Like he's being 

[00:08:27] Eldar: held hostage by those things that he's learned, right.

[00:08:31] Processed, and now lodged in, into himself so deeply that now he has this a, a specific, a standard. That he can get out of. I 

[00:08:40] Mike: don't, maybe, maybe it's like, uh, something that he's like, uh, going through. But I think, uh, it's the challenge. It's like the, also combine that with like, who he is at the core is just like a, he's pic.

[00:08:53] He, he has this thing where he definitely like carries himself in his as stu as studious manner. Mm-hmm. You know, but also he is also just like a regular guy too. Yeah. He likes to run ammuck. Yeah. And like run likes the fuck around, go for a run and not shower. Yeah. That's not a studious. You gotta go back home, shower and put on a suit, for example.

[00:09:13] Yeah. For example, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he likes to run amuck, but he also has this thing lodged. Yes. There's a crisis. There's a crisis that's, you know, that's happening within. Yeah. And I also, one thing that I thought about when he was speaking 

[00:09:26] Tommy: mm-hmm. 

[00:09:29] Mike: Um, when he's like setting out to do whatever he set out to do, for example here.

[00:09:34] Mm-hmm. And he gave it a month, he may be setting for himself certain expectations Yes. That are not actually proper improper because sustainable, he's sustainable of what he thinks he's gonna extract and he's putting timelines that are, don't serve him well. They're not like logical, like, who are you to make up these timelines?

[00:09:54] Yeah. You know, on what you're gonna get from this Yeah. In a certain amount of time. Yeah. And I think he that a lot of times he, he does like these runs with multiple things. Mm-hmm. He tries. Schooling working. 

[00:10:05] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:10:06] Mike: You know, whatever. And he always goes in the cycle, but mm-hmm. He's always, I think, uh, my theory is that he's setting these expectations, what he is gonna extract.

[00:10:15] Mm-hmm. But it's like, um, you're trying to extract something that maybe somebody else extracted based on who they were as an individual, not as who you are as an individual. 

[00:10:26] Eldar: Yeah. And those things that he's, like I said, he ado, adopted from all the readings that he's done of he's learned, right? Yeah. Are probably a standard that he probably is going after, which is the ideal.

[00:10:37] For example, even his comment about, Hey, we could do a video or a day, if anybody's puzzled to what we're talking about, we're talking about Harris is the hook. That's the project. And, um, oh, check it out. It's on YouTube. Harris is the hook, and we're gonna be, we we're raising a president for 2050. Right.

[00:10:53] We're turning a lizard monkey into a human and. That's the project that Tom is working on that he's set out to do. But he wanted to do a, um, a video day. Right. Which I said, Hey, that's a little ambitious here. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because I know that 'cause of working myself through some of this stuff, I'm like, you get, you get lost in it sometimes, and you Yeah.

[00:11:12] You become overly creative. Right. Because you are having fun. Yeah. And I think he did put out some, some good work. Yeah. But we've also agreed, and I told him, Hey Tom, like we don't, we can do minimal editing. Right. You don't have to do all these crazy little, um, sound effects or, you know, visual effects.

[00:11:27] Mm-hmm. Which just cool. Something very basic. Yeah. You know, with maybe subtitles, something like that. And I agree here and there, you know, I agree. Uh, in order to kind of, maybe streamline the process, but, you know, obviously Tom, who's has these standards is holding himself back and saying like, ah, this is too much.

[00:11:40] And then he is overwhelming himself. Yeah. Is this all true Tom? Or what do you think? Are we shooting in the right direction that then it's no longer a project that serves you but takes away from you. That's why you run away. Even though, I'll tell you, I'll be honest with you, and this is gonna be my testimony.

[00:11:56] When you were coming here, I personally thought that you were the happiest, you know, like where like you actually enjoyed the process. You sh you enjoyed sharing it with us. Yeah. The videos you did create were cool. Right. You were laughing like crazy nonstop here, right? Mm-hmm. Because of the content and like, it almost felt like you belonged Yeah.

[00:12:15] For the, for that time being. But in the process, clearly something did not work where you just kind of maybe abandoned it for a little while. Right. Or ran away from it. So. 

[00:12:25] Tommy: I don't, I don't, I don't know if I really abandoned it. Um, you know, you put it, 

[00:12:30] Eldar: you, you put it in the drawer somewhere. Like 

[00:12:31] Tommy: part, part, part of what Mike you said is true is that maybe, um, you know, like there is no timeline.

[00:12:38] I think you, you say, I might have set up a kind of timeline or something that I can't meet, but maybe that the right thing to do would be to set a certain timeline. You know, like we've talked about our back and forth about, you know, maybe doing one video or two videos a week. Um, and I see, I see it as doable.

[00:12:55] Um, you know, maybe I did shy away a little bit from returning to the project because of like certain limitations in my life. And I think that's probably the more relevant thing to talk about in terms of like, what recently for me is more apparent. Like, like I'm not good with money and, but it's not, not being good or like lacking a skill with money.

[00:13:16] Like I'm, my relationship to money in terms of life and money, um, is like unhealthy. And it's like, I think it's one of the reasons why I feel anxiety about work, you know? Um, like confronting this, I think, you know, like I think there's an origin to it. Why, um, why money kind of causes, um, I don't know what it is, but my money causes me to feel like emotional pain, you know?

[00:13:48] Hmm. Like just generally dealing with money. Really. Um. Yeah. 

[00:13:53] Eldar: Have you established a very specific, like, belief system for yourself? Yeah. Belief system around money. Like, did you coin money as being like, the evil or like, like a bad thing? 

[00:14:04] Tommy: Uh, I, I, like, all I can say is that I've managed it better a little bit lately, you know, in terms of my spending.

[00:14:12] Um, and like the more I focus on, you know, actually allowing myself certain luxuries, but being smart about it, um, you know, like knowing what my limitations are. Like I mentioned to you, I don't go running the easy pass, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I don't wanna engage in these behaviors that are, um, obviously not, uh, let's say just, you know, really killing my creativity rather than helping support my creativity.

[00:14:40] So I think a lot about my creativity, but in a way I also block out the past. And this is, this is part of where my, like, for example, with money, that's where my fear of like money comes from. Like, my parents arguing about money growing up was like, not, not, not often, but it wasn't. But, you know, maybe it was infrequent, but it happened enough to know that like, you know, like to make you feel like, uh, like you're, you're, you're gonna be like the problem for them or something like that.

[00:15:12] Or like them arguing about money definitely like, worked it into my mind that like, uh. I don't know, maybe it made me a little bit more fearful about starting my own life, I guess you could say. Starting my own, like being more independent and stuff. It's just like, I don't know this, it's weird. I, I had this realization recently where it's like, money is money.

[00:15:34] I'm, I'm reading this book I told you about Eckerd Toley. Mm-hmm. I'm reading this book, uh, not this totally sitting next to us. No, not this. Totally. And I used to say Ecker, the lesser, the lesser one. The Le Eckert, the Lesser. Yes. Yeah. Uh, no, he, uh, he, you know, he writes about where our pain resides, like where our hotspots are, you know?

[00:15:57] Mm-hmm. So I try to, I try to like take in, uh, what the concepts that other people put in and, you know, and, and question it myself, see if I can examine it in my own life, if I can see it. And, um, you know, that was one thing. It was like, well, you know, like the arguments about money could make you really feel shame, uh, or guilt.

[00:16:20] I know it has since I was as long as I could remember, you know? 'cause like, I mean, I'll, I'll just go ahead and I'll tell a little bit. When I was five, I had this hip thing, you know, and I'll never forget how when my mom wanted to take me to the doctor, like my dad argued with her about it. You know, and, um, you still remember that?

[00:16:40] And she had, yeah. And she had her say over it and it, but it felt, I felt like it was my fault. Mm. Like I did this thing to, to myself, you know, I blame myself for doing that. 

[00:16:50] Mm. 

[00:16:51] You know, so it was, but it, like, this is, it's almost funny to talk about it, you know, it's like, 'cause it feels like it, it plays no role.

[00:16:59] It's just like another, it's like grist for the mill. It's just another thing. But, you know, when I think about it, yeah. Like, there were times where we actually faced hardship a number of times throughout and probably, no, no more or less than anyone else. Like, but yeah. With money, like, yeah. Throughout my life.

[00:17:19] Didn't you hear me say the other day that I took my first job when I was 15? You did? Yeah. And I don't know why I did that. I didn't, I didn't need to. Like, we were okay. You know? But, um, I don't know. It's just maybe since I was that young, I've been wanting, been wanting to be an adult, you 

[00:17:38] know? 

[00:17:38] So. Mm. It's weird.

[00:17:41] I'm thinking a lot about this stuff and like, I'm trying to make sense of it, but walking away from the project for some time, like, yeah, it causes me some, you know, some pressure to come back. But at the same time, I feel like it's also been, I was telling Mike that it's sort of like, and you too Eldar, that it was like a seed that kind of like, like sprouted and.

[00:18:07] Um, and led me in a good, in, in a good direction, I think. So to continue like my, I don't know, I have to find the motivation to do, to do film. Like I have to enrich or, or nurture this, this curiosity that I have of it. And like, I, I think that'll help me do my best. Or maybe, maybe I do put a lot of pressure on myself to do this, to do this, um, you know, like in a perfect, perfect way.

[00:18:40] Like really, like, I try to do this in a perfect way and I don't know how to, how to stop myself. I don't know how to say, um, this, here's how I should divide up my time. Because, because I don't know, I, I guess I could learn a lot from you guys watching you guys, like, you know, I was thinking today when you're putting these tweets out there, I was like, you know, you're, you're a guy who works and you know, at certain times of day you, you engage with your phone.

[00:19:08] You like doing that. And, and you know, just a perfect example of how I'm a perfectionist, how I take ideas like, uh, ideologies or like, you know, like, uh, uh, a philosophy that I don't necessarily, you know, like I don't understand maybe fully the truth about it. Um. And, and it causes resent for that reason.

[00:19:39] Eldar: Yeah. And it causes failure to launch. I think that's the most important thing here. Right? Like a lot of times we overthink all these things that we are supposed to be doing, and then we put up a bar so high that we have to go up against and instead of just going and doing right, we have analysis paralysis situation where we don't, we don't really get anything done.

[00:19:59] I think we talk about this too. Totally. You know, um, not too long ago where it's like, just go and start, start working on something, start doing it, see what you get, trial and error and stuff, you know, and like, I'm not afraid of that. I've been doing that. I've been trying to kind of like, okay, cool, like I'm not sure where this is going is headed, but like, yeah, I'll experiment and I'll try things out.

[00:20:17] I like that. I really do hear you clear on this. And my day is filled in with things to do and I like doing them. You know? Sure. I might not be successful at everything that I'm doing, but like, I'm trying to enjoy the process for the process that it is versus trying to overcomplicate and say, you know what, like somebody's doing it this way.

[00:20:34] Somebody's do, like comparing and stuff. You know, like, yeah. 

[00:20:36] Tommy: Yeah. 

[00:20:36] Eldar: I'm not comparing to anything. 

[00:20:37] Tommy: Like, I almost think like I had to go and put myself through suffering. Um, but through worry about when, when, uh, or how I'm gonna get back to this project. Yeah. Like I, it's been in my mind and I'm like, you know, I don't have an explanation for this.

[00:20:57] You know, I'm kind of confused. I feel a little bit confused about it. Yeah. Um, and it doesn't really like, it doesn't, you know, dealing with it, I guess the way that I deal with it doesn't help. 

[00:21:10] Eldar: Well, it clearly it's not working for you. Right? It clearly it's not serving you. If you find a way to do something that, that you like for prolonged period of time, and we talk about this all the time and you like the results from it, I think to a degree, you get empowered.

[00:21:23] You get empowered by the successes that you see from it, right? Some of those small little wins where people, you make people laugh or people give you feedback. You yourself, like the work that you've come up with, right? Uh, even if somebody didn't give you good feedback, right? You like it yourself. There's small wins that can accumulate into, into bigger empowerment there for you.

[00:21:42] But you just have to be on that journey. In order to experience that. You have to be on that journey long enough. Hopefully that journey entails something that you actually like and enjoy. You know what I mean? Then you can do it for prolonged periods of time. If not, then you introduce our favorite word discipline, right?

[00:22:02] And you smart enough, right? To know the repercussions behind applying discipline, right? Uh, to apply discipline is to then, to the degree, apply a certain level of pain to yourself, right? And go quote, unquote, against yourself in order to achieve a particular goal. Obviously I'd like to challenge people, people's goals is to find out really what is it that you actually like to do and want to do.

[00:22:27] And then if it's, it's that what you want to do, just do it. Don't fucking make it a goal. Just go and do it, you know? And get some steam behind you by keep doing it if you like it. You know, what, what do you guys think? Yeah. 

[00:22:41] Toliy: Um, yeah. Yeah. I, uh, 

[00:22:45] Eldar: but you seem to just drop out, right? Because it's pretty 

[00:22:47] Tommy: unbelievable.

[00:22:48] I'll, I'll put it this way, that, that for, for a while, you know, I've had a kind of, um, secret doubt that's like a great, a great phrase that I got from, uh, from a book. Um, this, this secret doubt that I could actually, um, that I, that I, I, I could put together a visual story, like I could put together a story myself.

[00:23:11] Like I, I still, till now, when I think about making a film, like, I'm totally like, it's like, who the fuck do you think you are? That's how I, that's how I kind of answer myself, but working on this and I'm like, you know, what is it that I have here? I don't know what I have here. You know? Maybe part, maybe part of it is like, fear that I'm actually not, you know, that I'm not, you know, good enough.

[00:23:40] Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm not good enough. 

[00:23:42] Eldar: You know, it's interesting because, um. I mean, everything that we're trying to do, be open-minded and mindful of you and who you are. And the way you are is to make sure, not to give you pressure. You know what I mean? So you can blossom on your own and find your own way, you know?

[00:24:00] Um, but I think maybe deep inside something's telling 'em that this project is very big, because this project is very big for us. You know what I mean? Uh, even that time we had a walk with him, right? Where we said, Tom, this project is to raise a real president of the United States. It's gonna take 25 years.

[00:24:19] It's gonna be very hard, right? Because the individual that we're working with right now is very unpolished. He's like a rock that you find outside, but then you have to grind it, grind it down with so many different efforts, you know? And he's like, what? Like, yeah. He laughed at it. Like he laughed at it. We were joking, right?

[00:24:36] Yeah. He thought we were joking, right? Where it's like, no, like, what do you mean? We just wanna put some stuff out there, go viral, whatever. And that's it. I think it's much bigger than that, you know? And the truth of the matter is if it doesn't line up with, with, with our vision or our understanding of it, if you really don't tap in Yeah.

[00:24:51] Like, you're probably gonna gas out or burn out or, or come up with some kind of an excuse where you're not good enough. Right. Which is a, I think is a crazy phenomenon. 

[00:25:02] Tommy: Hmm. 

[00:25:05] Eldar: Or because he's not tapped in. 

[00:25:07] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:25:08] Eldar: So he's not gonna have the steam. Yeah. 

[00:25:11] Mike: You know what I'm saying? Like, but he, it's hard to tap in because of all his own preconceived notions, belief systems, you know, things that, well in this case, right's, he's, at least 

[00:25:19] Eldar: he's not curious enough.

[00:25:20] Right. He is not coming around and saying, yo, what are we doing here? Like, why are we doing this in the first place? Mm-hmm. Like, me and you are totally, we can definitely explain to him. Mm-hmm. Right. Even totally today, the way what he was telling him about write a book about the actual experience that we're doing would be the coolest thing.

[00:25:34] And like, obviously totally has a lot to say as to what, what we actually doing here, if he asked them. 

[00:25:39] Tommy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:40] Eldar: So at the end of the day, it comes down to like, does Tom actually know what we're doing here? 

[00:25:44] Tommy: Mm-hmm. Right. 

[00:25:45] Eldar: And is he understanding of it fully? If so, then it's inevitable for him to tap in. Yeah, totally.

[00:25:52] These challenges like, Hey, he doesn't even know us. He like, 

[00:25:55] Mike: no, I think he know. I think he does know, but I think he has his block and it might be tied to what we're, you know, the, the guy said yesterday is the celebrity worship thing. Oh. He esteems these like directors. He references a lot of different writers and authors and, and I think that.

[00:26:10] We don't em that at all. Not, well, not only that, but it's also he's might be like putting himself like, oh, this is the way that this guy did it. Yeah. I have to go on a similar path. Correct. He's making himself like, yeah. Well, no, I, it's, I don't think it's that at all. 

[00:26:25] Tommy: I think it's the very opposite. So that's, that should be good's told.

[00:26:29] Toliy: What would you Yeah, like, well, first off, like I have a lot of thoughts on this stuff. Some of it is a little bit mean. Well listen, but, um, like, um, like when, like what Tom was saying, we questions himself, whether he's like good enough or stuff like that. Like those to me are all like 100% valid thoughts.

[00:26:49] Mm-hmm. Because I think that, like, I'm not sure, like what he's done so far that leads him to believe that he is good enough. 

[00:26:56] Eldar: Mm. Okay. That's fair. For 

[00:26:57] Toliy: all this stuff, right? Yeah. Like, like, he's not able to like, like do things co consistently and like bring them home and like, you know, like do it for like, like a consistent enough time to do something.

[00:27:12] And then like, if you compare it to like, previous people, like, I mean like, I don't know exactly what their path was like, but like, I guarantee you they were like curious enough to like actually go do things. Right. But like Tom has been talking about him being a creative for, I don't know, for as long as I've known him, I've never really seen anything he's ever done.

[00:27:32] So like someone who's a, to me, a true creative is like someone who's like actually doing something. Creative and like, like making something, making some content, whether it's, you know, videos, like whatever. It's, you know, like I, I, I guess I've seen him take like a few pictures of like, New York with some, like, filters or something, but like, um, am I, like, you know, was I ever like, wow, like this person's really creative.

[00:27:58] Like, no, you know, like to me when it comes to like, um, creativity, like, I view it as that, uh, as that like there's, there's, there's no like, um, like there's no like path where you're just like, Hey, I'm gonna go be a creative, for example, right? Like, you do things and you can be creative in anything, obviously.

[00:28:19] Like Yeah. Anything you, you'll tell me. Any role, any job, anything. There are creative ways to do it. There's probably more like plain, ordinary, black and white ways to like do it. Yeah. Right. There's innovative ways that people do it, right? Yeah. Like, um, like in all different things, you know, and, and like all different things that were created.

[00:28:39] Right. Um, so like, someone who's really creative I think is someone that actually knows something, has some substance and that substance, like when they show it to others or they, or they actually create something that someone can use or like look at. They're like, wow, what this person did, for example, is really creative.

[00:29:00] Or like, it's impressive, right? But I don't think there's one person that someone else views that person as creative, that doesn't actually know their shit. Meaning that it's impossible to like, be creative but not actually know like what you're talking about or what you're doing. Like you have to have a lot of knowledge, I think, behind it.

[00:29:21] Yes. Like behind it, because like you, it, it, it's like drib dribbling a basketball, right? Like, um, when they teach, like, you know, something basic like to, like dribble for example. Just, just saying dribble, right? Um, like they'll teach you what to do, you know, you to dribble it with your right hand, you dribble it with your left hand.

[00:29:40] You're at like, you know, a particular low stance, right? Like, like the fundamental way is a very basic level way, right? And then people who are like, I can do that, obviously. Right? But you take dribbling to a, a different level than me completely, for example. Yeah. Um, because you do it in a much more creative way.

[00:30:00] Tommy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:01] Toliy: Which like, because you're very skilled at dribbling to begin with, for example. Mm-hmm. Or like a very skilled at like passing 

[00:30:09] Tommy: mm-hmm. 

[00:30:10] Toliy: For example, right. But like, you can't do fancy passes, for example, but not be able to do like a basic pass, let's just say. Right? Yeah. Like you, you know, the basics and then you, you took off with it next and you were a creative.

[00:30:23] Within that, because you actually were good at it. Now, someone who like plays, like, they have like two left feet, like you can clearly see that like there's no, like they can use the word creative, but they'll never be viewed as someone who's like creative, for example, because like they're not actually good at it.

[00:30:38] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:39] Toliy: You know? 

[00:30:40] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:30:40] Toliy: So, um, like I, I think that the more Tom tries to be a creative versus actually like, learn a skill, like display it, like do it consistently enough and then evolve within it. I think he will naturally, um, elevate his knowledge and be creative and tap in within it, 

[00:31:00] Eldar: within it. 

[00:31:01] Toliy: But this desire to be creative, I think it's, it's like a, um, like I view it as like a complete blocker.

[00:31:09] Oh. It's like you're, it, it, it's like an animal chasing their tail, you know, to chases. It's an 

[00:31:15] Eldar: interesting point. Yeah. 

[00:31:16] Toliy: Like to chase creativity, it's to like chase nothing. Right. But you can cha but you can go after like a concept, a skill. Like you can go after, go after anything. Mm. And you can be creative within it once you are Yeah.

[00:31:28] Once you're actually good. Mm. Once you actually have displayed like a, like a knowledge. So this is something that 

[00:31:36] Tommy: I totally agree with him about and oh, that this is sort of like, maybe represents really, like right now for me, like the, the, the, um, the pinnacle. Yeah, I guess that's the word. Yeah. Of my thinking at the moment.

[00:31:51] You know, like, really this represents how my clarity of what my issue is, or like, in terms of finding who I am, like I need to think in this direction, um, and sort of bring things to the present moment. Yeah. So there are a couple of things like I can say about film in general. Like, I don't think I can do it right, but I aspire to do it.

[00:32:15] Like, I hope that the editing somehow dovetails with my, making my own projects, coming up with my own stories. I see a possibility. No, I, I feel that, I feel that I have potential and this is already like an improvement to what was before, which was, you know, uh, like I, I really, really didn't feel like I could be doing this, but I don't know, working on these videos made me start thinking maybe I should, should be really doing, doing something about it, you know?

[00:32:49] Um, and, uh, yeah, so like I feel like, look, it's not my project, right? But I have to somehow reconcile this. Like, I have to say like, this is, this is what I'm gonna do, this is how I'm gonna do it, you know? Um. Uh, it's weird. I've spent some time reading about movies, reading about making films, you know, I don't know if you guys know, but like, I've taken acting classes before.

[00:33:23] Um, I took an acting class years and years ago. I took some acting classes in the Pande during the pandemic. So like, there's this for me, like, you know, there's this thing where it's like, you know, okay, let, let me lemme grab this. Maybe you guys can help me like, sift out some of the meaning of this.

[00:33:46] There's this, uh, part of a, a book that I, that I mentioned a couple of times, the Artist's Way By, by Julia Cameron. Um, and she explains this story about this guy who she talk, she tells a story about a guy who spent, um, a lot of time reading like film books on films and, uh, filmmaking. Um, but when he was accepted into a film program, like to pursue his dream, um, he got, he, like, he, he dropped out like, um, kind of similar to this in a way.

[00:34:21] Like where, like, I started doing this and, and then I kind of like, I don't know, I either got scared or whatever it was that I was dealing with, I couldn't articulate, you know, like, I need a, I need to get a, a new computer here. Like, I can't use this, um, I can't use this or whatever like. Even the, the silliest thing, bringing the monitor in from there into here.

[00:34:45] You know, these things kind of like, um, underneath, like in the, in my subconscious, like, I'm thinking of these things, but I'm unwilling to articulate them because I think I need to like be pure in my intentions. Like, you know what I mean? Like, not to ask for anything. Like, I think I need to be kinda like more or less like self-sustaining.

[00:35:10] Self-sustaining, you know what I mean? And like, but why, why, why do you have that? Because, you know, you feel like you'll be burden kind of perfectionist. Like, um, oh, you would be a burden by asking. No, it's, it is, it is more ego, it's and self-centered kind of thing. It's like a, a kind of self-centered thing.

[00:35:29] That's what it's, 

[00:35:31] Mike: it really is. 

[00:35:32] Tommy: I'll tell you. 

[00:35:33] Mike: Are you saying that when you asking for those things, it's coming from a place of ego. You have to do it on your own 

[00:35:39] Tommy: to ask of those things. I feel like it, it sort of diminishes my value. It's the weirdest thing. I, like, I, it's, it sounds so dumb that I even dislike saying it.

[00:35:49] It, it sounds gross and, and, and so, um, exaggerated to me,

[00:35:57] Eldar: I don't see nothing wrong with it. Asking. I agree. Or I don't see nothing wrong with it. Right. Can I tell you guys something? What I do see something wrong with mm-hmm. Is, for example, if you were to, uh, if you have some resources to come up with something right? And you can do it with those resources, then you should do it.

[00:36:12] Right. Finding the excuses why you're not doing it is probably wrong. Right. Definitely wrong. 'cause like you, you, you are steaming for like, okay, cool, like if I don't have this computer, but then I need this computer. But then if you even have that computer, you can have another computer and that computer can go to the, like, to the whatever level.

[00:36:28] Mm-hmm. Why? Because you're constantly chasing maybe the best program, the best this, whatever, and you never get to actual work. 

[00:36:35] Tommy: Yeah. 

[00:36:35] Eldar: You know, so you get stuck on this like paralysis of yourself, of like, yeah. I'm just like, you know, I find the excuses. Mm-hmm. This is not good enough. This is not good enough.

[00:36:43] Let me, let me find this. You know, 

[00:36:45] Tommy: I guess it's those two things. It's fear of failure and it's fear of the money, money issue. You know? It's like, um, you know, to be asking for things and then fail. Like, what kind of kind of person am I gonna be? You know? 

[00:36:59] Eldar: Well, sure. But you know, I mean, you've done this before.

[00:37:01] Yeah. This is not before many times. 

[00:37:02] Toliy: And failure is part of life Yeah. As well. Yeah. It's part of it. You try, I'm think that's the thing is that like, if you ask for things and you, and you're, and you're like not doing, then like Yeah. I could definitely see how that's like, you know, like that's gonna be like a painful experience.

[00:37:19] Well, for sure. But pdo yeah. I'll tell you one thing. Yeah. Right. For as long as I've known Tom. Right. Yeah. Uh, I mean, my opinion, uh, Elise is, I like around all of these things, I think he struggles with accountability. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So if you're gonna ask for, you know, this computer, this monitor, this mouse, this chair, for example, this setup, and then you disappear for two weeks, for example.

[00:37:42] Yeah. Or like, you know, stuff like that. 

[00:37:44] Tommy: The magic 

[00:37:44] Toliy: tools. Right. Then like, yeah. Like, mm-hmm. Yeah. Like, you, you have to feel bad, but you should feel bad. Mm-hmm. Because like, you're not showing any accountability, like in your work. Mm. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And by not asking for those things or doing that, then you almost set it that like, well, you're not asking for much to begin with, therefore you should not be expecting, 

[00:38:04] Eldar: oh, we caught much in return.

[00:38:05] We caught the rabbi's tail and translate character. Yeah. 

[00:38:12] Toliy: I mean, ultimately, right. It, it, it, it's like it's commitment. Right. Like, um, like the setup that you did in there for Tommy originally. Yeah. Yeah. Like you went, you go, got a, you went and you got a carpet. Yeah. Got particular lights. Yeah. Like you did particular things to write a book.

[00:38:28] Yeah. Nobody in the office has a private office. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Gave Tommy a pri, like the only private office. Yes. Right. Like you gave him everything. 

[00:38:36] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:38:36] Toliy: You know, for someone that just is a non-committal person that's like non-consistent, like Yeah. You did all these things Yeah. Than the person. You know, it came a couple of times and then, and then like, that's it.

[00:38:47] Well, the reason why I'm doing it, I have my own 

[00:38:50] Eldar: reasons as to why I do it. 

[00:38:51] Toliy: No, no, I 

[00:38:51] Eldar: know, but I'm saying is that like, I want to break through and get to the point where finally, like when he does receive, he can be accountable for himself and say, you know what? I received this stuff. I was about it, and I gotta see this thing through because this thing is, is what I wanna do.

[00:39:05] You know, him not seeing these things through says something about the way he sets himself up. 

[00:39:10] Mike: Yeah. No, but I think, uh, I wonder maybe Tom can confirm or deny Yeah. Maybe he doesn't see these things through, because deep down he actually doesn't believe in those things, uh, because he didn't himself buy into it again.

[00:39:22] Yeah. Somebody else that he Yeah. Thinks has some answers or knows something about life, or is happy or whatever Yeah. That he sees in them 

[00:39:30] Tommy: Yeah. Is telling him that Yeah. It's in a deep way. It's very flawed and it's also in a way, a delusion, but, 

[00:39:37] Eldar: well, he also said that he's not taking ownership of it. Like it's not his project.

[00:39:40] Yeah. Right. Yeah. So he is like, oh, okay. It's not my project. Like, I always wanna do my project. Well, exactly. Do your project. He, but he learned that again. Right? 

[00:39:48] Mike: It's like, uh, some people say, yeah, I want to be my own boss. Yeah. Right. I don't wanna work with somebody. Yeah. Well if you know, if you wanna do that, then you'll understand what that comes with.

[00:39:58] Yeah. You know? Yeah. But it, it also could be like, it could be coming from a place of like, yo, fuck everybody. I'm not gonna listen to anybody. Like, again, an arrogant thing. Yeah. Why you don't wanna be your own boss. Correct. Like. Uh, I, a long time ago I said, I don't want, I wanna be my own boss, and I did it right.

[00:40:14] Yeah. And I don't think it was coming from arrogance, more so belief in myself and Yeah. Wanted to do something a certain way. Yeah. Um, but if you're doing it for the wrong reason, like the reason, like, you don't think you're good enough, so you need to prove to people that you are like, you are the boss because most people work jobs, they work for somebody.

[00:40:36] Mm-hmm. And they still take accountability. 

[00:40:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:40:38] Mike: You know, you don't have to take owner, but you can still be an employee. I take ownership and take ownership 100. I think 

[00:40:43] Eldar: that's the way to do it. Yeah, I think so too. I agree that you can definitely take ownership, uh, of a project that's maybe wasn't your necessarily idea, but you can take enough ownership of it where you become ingrained in it so much that it becomes part of you and who you are.

[00:41:00] And if you producing right, then how can you take that back to the individual who came up with it, for example, and say like, Hey, look like, uh, we've created so much good. And look how what this is going on. And like, that individual will not receive something that is just for himself when it comes to this specific project.

[00:41:18] And I think the only way to be truly satisfied, I think, is to take that ownership and we just talked about that. Right. Um, own the suit or whatever. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. To some degree. Yeah. Like you have to own the, your shit. Mm-hmm. Uh, make it yours. And if you don't, then yeah, it's always gonna be like halfass this, halfass that.

[00:41:35] Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:36] Mike: Yeah. Well, the question is why does he, why does this notion in his head that he has to be the owner of it? Or he, like, even with the, the kind of routes that he sets for himself, these trajectories, where did they come from? You know, because we so influenced by outside external shit. Yeah. 

[00:41:54] Tommy: Yeah. 

[00:41:55] Mike: And a lot of times we live in a life that's not our own.

[00:41:58] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:41:58] Mike: You know? 

[00:41:59] Eldar: Well, that's why I think that the way, at least the, this social dynamic that we have, I think we have different avenues where a person can integrate within our dynamic at least, which is, I think, very accepting, very nur uh, nurturing and stuff, and encouraging, and then make something of yourself, you know what I mean?

[00:42:15] Versus the world who's telling you, looking down upon you, who's constantly kind of telling you you're not good enough, and then you start believing this shit. It's like you never get anywhere. You know what I mean? 

[00:42:26] Toliy: Yeah. But I think that like 1, 1, 1 thing I see here that I can issue for, for a lot of people, um, I think including here in like, in, uh, Tom's case, like, um, like, like what Mike was saying too, like, um, um, like I think Tom is like an like, like infatuated with like a, uh, like an ideology.

[00:42:50] Yeah. You know, but like, so like, not, not like a, uh, like a way, like, like it's just an idea of like, for example, like the idea of like, I don't know. Being a creative like filmmaker for it's role. Example, a role, a role identity. Yes. Yes. With like, he has an affinity for a, a type of person and a type of scenario.

[00:43:08] Right? Yeah. The issue is that when, like, when you have that, um, and you don't actually know like what's behind it, you kind of live in like a gray land where, um, like you can't really be accountable because you yourself don't even know like what this entails or like, what's the steps here? Or like, yeah.

[00:43:29] Yeah, we talked about that. Yeah. You're, you're just kind of like, you, you, you could be like attached to want wanting to like, do it, but you're never accountable for anything because like you create the rules. Yeah. It's, it's like the person that like is creating, for example, like startups. Yeah. And they never make any kind of sales, for example.

[00:43:46] Yeah. And they never like, do anything. Yeah. They just keep like, uh, like doing things you could just keep starting over, for example, and keep doing things and like, you have your reasons as to why you may want to be this type of person or a business owner or like whoever, but you're just like attached to the ideology.

[00:44:04] But you give yourself the past I agree. Over and over again as to like, I agree. Like, like, like that. Whereas like if you're, um, if you are, are putting yourself in a position where you find it important to be accountable mm-hmm. Right. Then you need to actually attach yourself to some kind of substance. Mm.

[00:44:23] Like you need to actually attach yourself to like. Concrete steps. 

[00:44:27] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:44:27] Toliy: For example. Yeah. Right. Um, 

[00:44:30] Tommy: I think the steps, yeah. Actually no, the certain steps are there, but they also build up to this kind of role that I define myself, that I think that like, I think as my own ideology that really has no substance because it's, you know, it's like, what it turns me into is someone who's high strung and intense.

[00:44:50] You know, like, I feel like, I feel like more or less that probably the past has some influence on why I am this way, why I am intense, why emotionally I'm intense and like one and whatever. One 

[00:45:02] Toliy: thing I wanted to add, um, before you continue tell, is, um, there's a huge difference and there's, um, like I view it as like, like a, I dunno if it's a big problem or just like, like a, uh, a very big difference between those two types, types of people.

[00:45:21] The person that's playing out these like ideas of being a business owner or the ideas of like whatever it is, right. Of being a filmmaker or like whatever, they can have an unlimited, unchecked ego and have no repercussions 

[00:45:37] Eldar: behind the wants and designers. Yeah. 

[00:45:39] Toliy: But no matter how much, like, but, and the other way where you have accountability and you actually have to report, like, report or like, like, like do particular things.

[00:45:50] Hmm. Um. No matter how much of an ego you have, you have to put, you have to put one in one to make two. 

[00:45:57] Tommy: Yeah. 

[00:45:58] Toliy: So your ego gets checked at the, at the process of, of respect of the actual process. Mm. That's required to do, do something, do this. Because there, like, you can't have an ego because you're doing math there.

[00:46:10] Yes. You're, you have an actual like Yes. Like real actual concrete steps that need, need to be done regardless of whatever kind of stories you're gonna tell yourself or how you feel. You're right. You're right about that. About the scenario. Where in the other world 

[00:46:21] Eldar: Yeah, anything goes. You just kind of like, free roam.

[00:46:24] Free roam forever and you can 

[00:46:24] Toliy: make whatever conclusions you want. Yeah. You can say whatever you want. You can do whatever you want and there's really no repercussions for it. Right. But if you're, for example, someone that's doing that, but you need to be self-sustainable. Yeah. Well, you know, like rent's gonna be due.

[00:46:40] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:46:40] Toliy: Your car payment's gonna be due. 

[00:46:41] Eldar: That's right. 

[00:46:42] Toliy: You know, your, your food expenses are gonna be due. Yeah. Your insurance is due. So that's where like more of like the reality that will fight your ego then steps in where it's like these are concrete things that like they don't care about whether you have an ego or not.

[00:46:58] That's right. Same thing. I think in actually doing things, you know, when you attach yourself to actually doing things, you are almost required a sense of humility that can actually put you in a position to, to actually learn. Because it's a requirement. Yeah. A requirement to learn is humility, but there are no requirements to living out a delusion.

[00:47:20] An open-ended thing. It's open-ended. It's a gray area where it's just like, 

[00:47:25] Eldar: it's a mist, whatever, whatever land, you know? Wow. Tom, I think you found a cure to you. Dude, I know the answer. Let, let's hear whatever you got to say, uh, you are, if you're gonna continue working on Harris's the hook mm-hmm. You have to come up with a business plan.

[00:47:39] Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:41] Tommy: A plan, yeah. Business plan. Okay. What the fuck does that mean? What does it mean? This means this is the way to cure you? Well, what is it, what, what kind of business plan is that? Plan of action? Plan of Oh, okay. A 

[00:47:54] Eldar: plan of action. Like plan of action. A plan. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Not an ambiguous, like totally is talking about Yeah.

[00:48:02] Free, free roaming. That's, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, 

[00:48:05] Toliy: and, and for example, in some of the stuff that I do, I definitely suffer with Pro, probably not in the way that, that, like Tom, Tom Tom does it. But like, um, in my own stuff, when I try to do different things, I definitely try to be a perfectionist to, to like a nauseating degree where it definitely creates a, like a paralysis in like action for me.

[00:48:26] Because like, I find myself, um, like almost like in, in moments, like, uh, like I, I, I don't know how to say it without sound sounding like a arrogant, but like, almost knowing too much to actually do like little steps or things. Yeah. Oh, you know? Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just, it's too below you. It's it not, not, not, not that it's like below me, but like, I wanna like.

[00:48:52] Sprint versus walk. Like, I want the, like a, like a grand play. Like I, I don't want just like, you know, like two, see, that's two puppets talking to each other. Yeah. You know, I want like a perfect play that like, is like, you know, like the best director will like, direct and create. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But, and, and oftentimes for, for me, it's like that like local show that like, you know, may maybe a couple people, five people show up, pick picking their nose are gonna like, yeah.

[00:49:17] Show up and watch. Like, no, you, you don't want that. You know? Mm-hmm. But then oftentimes, like, if you just do something and you get off the ground, you can actually get like somewhere, because like, you can use your abilities that you, like, you actually know things that you can actually do, and you can actually progress and have like mm-hmm.

[00:49:35] Then something to like, opt, opt, optimize from. 

[00:49:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:49:38] Toliy: Right? Yeah. Like, like, uh, like for example, right, right now in the stuff that I'm doing, like there, there's like multiple, uh, like elements and like layers, um, to it. But the way that I feel like it's like designing itself is that like if something is not working, there's, there's, there's gonna be like, like, um, clear reasons why, and there's gonna be clear things like, for example, right, like, um, and like a sales process, right?

[00:50:08] Like, um, you can maybe have like the best, like you can create, for example, the best mailer, like direct mailer for example. The best emails ev ever for, for, for example, phone scripts. But if they don't. Land in the right places if they're not at the right address, if they can't get them into the prospect's hands.

[00:50:26] Mm-hmm. It's use, it's, it's, it's useless for, for example. Yeah. So, you know, having those things checked that you have, you know, accurate address data, information, you know, you have warmed up inboxes to like penetrate through all those like, you know, security walls you have now and like 

[00:50:41] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:50:42] Toliy: That, that they do now.

[00:50:43] And then like as you're doing things, like if, if you account for all those things, like for example, you could show that, like say you, you could show that you're really good at reaching people and it's making there, and like they're, they're, they're acknowledging it and you're getting conversations going, but maybe you see that like, there's not much interest here, or like, the offer is wrong here.

[00:51:02] Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, so maybe you, you don't have a problem of, like, some people are like, Hey, they have the best solution, but if only they were to reach those people Yes. They would be selling them like, hotcakes. Hotcakes. Yeah. Right. 

[00:51:13] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:51:13] Toliy: And then some people have like the opposite problem. They, they could be very good at reaching people Yeah.

[00:51:18] But they don't have a good enough offer or they don't have a good enough way of positioning things. Yeah. They don't have a good enough way of offering things. That's right. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Um, so, so like, at least if you're doing stuff you can say like, Hey, I'm really good and I'm really creative at reaching people and like, I reach out to 20 people, I get 10 answers.

[00:51:36] Like, that's a crazy. Reapply rate for, for example, right? Yeah. But no one's buying. Okay. Well, at least you're good at reaching people now. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Now you can adjust parts of it. Yeah. You're offer versus trying to make it right away. All like, 

[00:51:49] Eldar: yeah. Encompassing perfect. All 

[00:51:50] Toliy: perfect at the same time without even getting any feedback.

[00:51:53] Yeah. Without even hearing what, what people are saying. 

[00:51:56] Eldar: I have a, a question about this perfect thing. I, sorry, before, before you say that, Mike, I was gonna bring my example of like, I, I can get the conversation going on Twitter right now, right? Mm-hmm. Like, I can be controversial, I could be nice, I can be whatever, and I can see, I can get an engagement, but I don't know how to have them follow me yet.

[00:52:12] Remember I was telling you about, now I have to find a way to find a call, call to action message in such a way where then I can draw them to actually follow us. Mm-hmm. Or then listen to the podcast, right? Yeah. So I am also learning that's the same process, right? Where it's step by step that sure, I might be, be able to do one thing, but I'm not good at the other thing.

[00:52:28] Mm-hmm. Now I have to tweak, I have to learn. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? And, and I like to process and I like to learn, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So, yeah, go ahead. 

[00:52:35] Mike: The, that was my example, the, the thought about the perfection thing. Mm-hmm. Maybe it a question for Tommy and Toley, um, this idea of perfection, which I'm not sure if that's a real idea, period, if that actually exists, but that's not my question.

[00:52:54] But, uh, how does somebody know, or how does somebody know that. The I the reason is that you're seeking perfection that's driving you not the fear of failure that's driving you to start. Like, is that just an excuse? 

[00:53:12] Toliy: Well, well, I feel like they're, they're hand in hand. Like you can't feel one without like, like, like the other.

[00:53:19] Okay. Right. Because it's like, 

[00:53:20] Mike: I don't get that. Can you, uh, 

[00:53:21] Toliy: yeah, like elaborate. If, if, if you're seeking perfection, then you have like a very immense fear for, for, um, failure. Yeah. Because like, you, you don't wanna fail and you feel like Sure. You can have, you need a Yeah, okay. Like a perfect scenario to like fail or like, 

[00:53:39] Mike: um, how can you be driven?

[00:53:41] How can fear be like a such a, is it the right fuel to use fear? Well, what about like, I want to be a perfectionist because I want to make sure that I'm doing the best job and putting the best effort and focus and abil my abilities in it. Versus I'm scared that I'm not putting my best abilities in it.

[00:53:58] I'm not focusing a hundred percent. Well, like, it's a different conversation. 

[00:54:02] Toliy: No, well, well I think one, one is just like a different attitude, right? Like the person who's like sure. Trying to do stuff like they, they wanna do things a particular way. They wanna do things like the right way, but they also like, if you wanna do things the, the right way, you also don't want to do things, for example, like the wrong way, you know?

[00:54:20] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:54:22] Toliy: Um, 

[00:54:22] Mike: no, no. I'm not talking about you don't know what the right way is. Right? You don't become a perfectionist in something new. It takes like time. You don't just like, I'm gonna play basketball and today I'm gonna become perfect perfectionist. It is gonna take your time. And you have to learn a lot of new things.

[00:54:36] Many new things. So setting expectations to be a perfectionist is like, doesn't make any sense. And, and having that I idea it, it's like, it doesn't, it doesn't, I don't like, I don't get how you can have that idea to want to be perfection because part of getting to perfection is failure. And I think understanding that is part of the process of knowing that, hey, I'm gonna make mistakes.

[00:55:00] I'm not gonna be perfect, but I should go in and do things the right way. Not in the sense like to make all the right choices, but to the right way. As far as like giving the commitment of yourself and your capacity, like, um, to put your best effort into accomplishing something. I thought it's an attitude.

[00:55:20] I think he's right. But is the attitude a belief system?

[00:55:26] Eldar: It 

[00:55:26] Mike: could be, it could be part of that. Like the one person who says, like, like Tommy said, yeah, I have a fear of failure so I don't start Yeah. That's a lack of empowerment. Yeah. Versus a person who's like, Hey, uh, the opposite. And they feel empowered. Like, Hey, I want do a great job. I want to be perfect, and I want to give my best effort.

[00:55:45] Yeah. You know, empowerment versus not empowered. So. Like two different things here. 

[00:55:50] Eldar: Yeah, for sure. That's driving. Yeah. And I obviously it's, yeah. I mean, it could be belief system, it could be value system, it can be how you were brought up, what kind of attitude you have toward things like how do you deal with certain stuff 

[00:56:01] Tommy: mm-hmm.

[00:56:01] Eldar: Expectations that you have of yourself and others and Yeah. And like how you see the world. I think there's a lot of things that play there 

[00:56:07] Tommy: mm-hmm. 

[00:56:08] Eldar: Where, you know, you have that type of a good attitude, let's just say. 

[00:56:11] Tommy: Yeah. Open, 

[00:56:12] Eldar: open-mindedness to be able to say, you know what? Like, yeah, I don't know this shit.

[00:56:15] I like, you know, but I'm gonna try my best. Right. You know, and that's, I think that that is probably perfect, you know? 

[00:56:21] Mike: Yeah. That's what I'm saying, you know? Yeah. But I think a lot of times people are gonna say it 

[00:56:26] Eldar: in 

[00:56:26] Mike: the lab, 

[00:56:26] Eldar: like, well, the big difference between one or the other is one is focusing on the journey, the other one is focusing on the destination.

[00:56:32] Right? Mm. Yeah. 

[00:56:33] Mike: Yeah. That, 

[00:56:33] Eldar: that's it. Right? One saying, Hey, I want do this in the best way possible on this journey. 

[00:56:37] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:56:38] Eldar: Right. 

[00:56:39] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:56:39] Eldar: The other one is saying that I want to come up with the best product at the end of it. 

[00:56:42] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. And like, but there's an illusion. There's no perfection that doesn't exist.

[00:56:46] Yeah. 

[00:56:47] Eldar: I don't think so. 

[00:56:48] Toliy: Well, it, it, it, it's very subjective. It's not that like Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like what, what others saying, like, it's subjective to like whatever the person views as like what, what their perfection like looks like 

[00:56:57] Mike: For sure. But for that person, they have a definition of perfection. Yeah.

[00:57:01] And this is also like a, a big part of a, like a, a condition. I think also with like a DHD, like one of the things is that you, you always seeking to be perfect and you don't allow yourself like to make any single mistakes. And if you do, it completely fucks you up. Like, um. Me and Kat have spoken about this before.

[00:57:18] Really? 

[00:57:19] Tommy: Really? 

[00:57:20] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:57:21] Toliy: Well, well, I think it just depends on like how you take mistakes and how you take errors and like, um, like, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think like a lot of it is not necessarily even like, like how you go about things. It, it's, it, it's a, a lot of it is like the attitude that you bring with there, you, you bring with you, right?

[00:57:42] Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, like 1, 1, 1 thing I never, like, I never, um, um, thought about it this way up until like recent. Like, I, I would say like, I'm a fairly like, competitive person, you know? 

[00:57:56] Eldar: You're gonna say negative. 

[00:57:58] Toliy: Yeah. I don't know. Am I negative? No, not as of lately. You, you, you know, you definitely were. Yeah.

[00:58:04] You worked on that. I, I feel like I'm a fairly competitive person, right? And what I'm doing right now is that like, like the whole business, for example, world out there is seeking, is trying to get people's attention, like the whole marketing and like, sales world, right? So like, I, I never viewed as I like, hey, like, you know, like I'm building these lists.

[00:58:24] I'm figuring out ways to like, get in touch with people. And like, like I found myself the other day, like, uh, uh, as I was doing it, like, like I felt competitive. I was like, how am I gonna get like, what? These people not gonna reply to me with this? You know? Yeah. Like, like I'm almost like I'm gonna get them to reply.

[00:58:42] Yeah. And if I can't, I'm gonna figure out how. Yeah. Too. Yeah. Right. So, like, I never thought about it that way, that like, yes, I'm trying to get like, like all I was trying to do is like, I'm trying to get leads to talk to mm-hmm. Trying to get people that I want to speak to, to, to speak to them. But I never viewed it as that like, hey, like this is feeling competitive now.

[00:58:59] Mm-hmm. Because like yeah. Like I want to be so creative and, and like, like the, the process to be so good that I will definitely get their attention and I will do And you're enjoying it. Yeah. That, that part I'm enjoying and, and like, I, I never viewed it that like, this could be like a competitive thing thing for me.

[00:59:16] Right. And, and, and like that, that's a lot of times, like what the business world is doing is they're trying to figure out what tools to use, what avenues to go about. How do they get your attention, how do they get conversation started with the people who they want to. And like, you know, if you explore that, you find that people are not very good at doing that.

[00:59:36] And people are not very creative and people are not like, they're, they're very much afraid to like, do, do things in different ways, you know? So like, I, I, I at least found, found it interesting for my myself that like, I never viewed as that, that like, I can be competitive in this good because like, I want to get this person's attention.

[00:59:55] Yeah. If they don't reply to me. 

[00:59:56] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:59:56] Toliy: I need to figure out like why and like, like what can I do? Yeah. And I'm willing to go to those creative levels Yeah. That are required. To, to, to do it. Let's see. You know, let's 

[01:00:07] Eldar: see. You know, the po a big point. Hopefully the pussy 

[01:00:09] Tommy: in you doesn't hold you back. 

[01:00:11] Eldar: What, 

[01:00:13] Tommy: uh, the big, the big kind of big point that I was gonna make about what, what I've actually been up to the last couple of months, um, besides running, which you guys know I'm doing, um, is like actually taking a closer look at film and, uh, kind of like, I don't know, more or less looking, looking inward.

[01:00:33] And, uh, I was telling Mike that I got like film magazines and I've been reading films and watching movies and for me this kind of helps like outta more or less like, actually, you know, it's gonna sound k kind of strange, but in, in a way I'm kind of educating myself, um, in a way I'm teaching myself in a way that I know how, that I like how, you know, like I kind of in a way that I like.

[01:01:00] Um, and, um, and it's really helped kind of, uh, fill in that void, like fill in the, the empty space or the emptiness that I think kind of confronted me or like, sort of like came down like a fog over me while I was working on this project. Um, because I do fill my head up with a lot of things and while I maybe don't aspire to be.

[01:01:32] Or to pursue, you know, like may, maybe I don't aspire to be another artist in the way that their voice or their work presents itself. But I definitely feel a kind of connection and, um, something pulling me in to learning precisely about their, the, the ideas that underlie their work and the, the, the, you know, the truth that really is embodied in, in the work that they, they have done.

[01:02:13] So like watching films of, of particular, you know, like watching a film of a particular director to me, really like, it could tell me something about them. And I really do believe that when I read books, you know, it could, it tells me it's like living inside. Yeah. But sooner or later, that's what it is. I, I live inside this stuff.

[01:02:36] That's what I'm trying to tell you. Uh, no, I agree 

[01:02:38] Eldar: with you, Tom. But sooner or later right, you get that itch. And I like, I know this because some of the things that I do when I do before I jump and leap into the water, right? Or actually take action, right? I study, you know, I've been doing certain things and looking at stuff and look, looking stuff up and learning and stuff like that, right?

[01:02:55] Yeah. But sooner or later I get the itch. Yeah. That I have to scratch and that is action. I want to get in and try it. I like, I want to immerse myself in actually doing the stuff, you know? 

[01:03:06] Tommy: Right, 

[01:03:06] Eldar: right. Um, and I, I think that's where I empower myself because when then I find some of the, when I start testing my hypothesis that I've been, you know, my theories that I had in my head mm-hmm.

[01:03:18] Are actually materializing in, in the world and I start seeing a little bit of success, that's when I feel empowered. Like even the social media stuff, remember I've been telling you guys, I've been studying it for a while mm-hmm. Trying to figure out what the fuck is going on out there. Yeah. Trying to study the people of social media.

[01:03:30] Right. Uhhuh. And I'm like, I'm gonna start engaging and I'm like, I'm, I really want to see what's up out there, you know? And like what I'm finding is, is what kind of like, confirming some of the things that I was thinking about that like, yeah, I can do this, I can do it pretty well. Uh, and I think that if I keep, keep, keep at it, at least if I keep enjoying it, I think you can get it to a place where I can make a splash in, you know?

[01:03:53] Tommy: Yeah. The, the thing that I fear the most, uh, perhaps is, but there has to be action. 'cause I have some, you know, like I, I do have a vision, right. Of how one day I could possibly make my own movie. Right. I, I do have this vision, I do have a kind of clear path in my mind, but I don't have the idea. Okay. And not only that, but I also fear that I won't have the idea.

[01:04:17] And not only that, but I also 

[01:04:19] Mike: see, I think, I think he, he keeps saying like this, you keep saying the similar thing, like, I'll watch these directors, I watch these movies. I get into it. Yeah. Into them. Yeah. You basically like investing into them and you haven't found a way to invest in yourself and to be like, yo power, you probably need to be No, no, no.

[01:04:34] Tommy: It's not that you probably need to banned. It's from watching movies. It's that I'm kind of new, I'm kind of new in, in terms of like where I am. Like I, I feel like this is a kind of new thing for me, um, that even beginning in this project, I'm really just starting to tap into what it means to actually create something that people watch, um, for entertainment.

[01:04:53] Like I do have experience with writing. I do have a kind of like base knowledge of how to write a book. Um, I, I do have like, I, I've crammed my mind with probably useless stuff, but no, it, it, I still care. No, but you have a, you, you, you still care for writing. I still 

[01:05:09] Toliy: do. You, you have a perception that you are good at these things or that you do understand them, but you've never done anything to, to like test whether you No, I think I'm okay.

[01:05:19] Mike: No, I, I think, I think I'm okay. Think doing these things think, uh, you scared to, you scared. And I think der says this, uh, says to me in a difference in a different way. But you are actually scared to present who you truly are because you don't think you're good enough. You don't think you're funny enough.

[01:05:36] Like a lot of times it me and you're hanging out and we're just being like numb nuts. I think this is great content. We're laughing like crazy and, and the conversations with, with us and the conversations, me and you have alone when we act and we do our little voices, I think this hilarious stuff and I think people watch it and listen to it and they'd love it.

[01:05:52] You are not convinced of your own power, so you're trying to draw power from these other people where, I'm been trying to say this, but where I'm saying like, Tom, yeah, you've been saying this. I've been saying this to him. Yeah, that you have the it. Yeah, you have the it, you are funny, you're quirky, you, you're smart, you're witty, 

[01:06:08] Eldar: but you're scared as fuck.

[01:06:09] You're 

[01:06:09] Mike: creative but you're scared as fuck. So basically, yeah, you are trying to like live through these people and that's actually stopping you. Yeah. From Tom, I from Discover own my post. My post got a quarter of a 

[01:06:21] Eldar: million and I got 500 plus haters. Like people would say, kill yourself, like all this shit like crazy shit.

[01:06:29] Like you think I give a fuck. They, they can't discourage me from what I'm doing. It's impossible. 

[01:06:35] Tommy: Yeah. I don't, I don't, I don't know what it is. I guess it's like, yeah, I do have certain ingrained fears for sure. Yeah. Like, I respond with anxiety and maybe in such a way that like, I can even elude or like mislead other people.

[01:06:48] Like I could even deceive you guys. Um, who knows? Maybe it'll only click for you later. Like, okay, Tommy is like, you know, maybe he's, he's, he's not entirely there right now. Maybe he is not really here in the present moment. I mean, I, I do agree. We always question that in some sense with what these guys have just said.

[01:07:05] I do. I do. And I appreciate you guys voicing your, your opinions because, you know, I'm, I'm here actually open listening. Like I'm really trying to, to take it in, um, in a way yes and no to what both you guys said. One is like, you know, watching movies and reading books I've found is like the clear key to reflecting in a way who I am.

[01:07:30] Mike: That's one thing. And what have those movies shown you about who you actually are, who you want to be? What kind of, that's a huge question. How you wanna express yourself in a creative way? Yeah. That's, give's a, 

[01:07:38] Tommy: that like, I mean, give us a nibble. I would ha we would have to be here probably to just discuss all of life.

[01:07:43] Like, that's what it, that's what it is. 

[01:07:45] Mike: Quick enough. 

[01:07:46] Tommy: I, I mean really books, movies, they really do keep me going. But like, you know, why or what is my relationship to life? Like why, why is that happening? And for that I really need to know myself and, and then, and then, you know, kind of, uh, what was it? Just kind of responding to these guys.

[01:08:07] Uh, so like, you know, I think at some point you're like, you're reading a book and you're like, Hey, you know this, maybe I could do this. May, maybe I could really do this. And do Do what though? You read enough, right? You read enough and you know, like, maybe I could actually write a book of this, of this nature.

[01:08:26] Be or better. No, no. 

[01:08:27] Toliy: But what, what, like what from reading a, a book would lead you to believe that? 

[01:08:33] Tommy: Well, because it really does live in you if you decide to live in it. It, it really does. I think it's like, 

[01:08:38] Toliy: well, I think it, it like it lives in anyone, but if you don't do this to me, 

[01:08:41] Tommy: this all goes back to actually do the thing that you want to do.

[01:08:45] If you say you want to do it, you should do it and to do it. Yeah. But you've proven that you don't do it, right? Yeah. Proven that I don't do what? You don't follow 

[01:08:53] Toliy: through. Yeah. You don't follow through. Well, okay. Mean to respond. Don't wanna do it. Right. I could, 

[01:08:57] Tommy: I I haven't sent my, I haven't sent my writing out to be query.

[01:09:00] I, like, I haven't sent a query out, which is what you, you send a a kind of, um, you know, you know, I don't think that my book is complete. I don't, I I've written a lot, but, you know, actually, pretty interestingly, I, I really feel like, you know, lately I can understand why, why that is by asking these kind of questions like you, this, this goes in the direction of art and how you create art.

[01:09:23] Toliy: Yeah. But you've never even shown like us, like any part of your book. That's, see, that's 

[01:09:29] Tommy: the thing. I think that's okay. I think, I think that's okay because I'm not yet sure. Yeah. But then that, that it's a thing you No, I know, but I don't, I don't think I have anything yet. Yeah. But so, so what, so what? So I sunk some time into it, but I spent many days and many hours actually, you know, trying to understand or maybe carve it out, you know, try to make it No, but you my own, you know?

[01:09:50] Toliy: No, no, I know. But then like, you almost encourage yourself to live in like a, uh, a, uh, delusion. I no, I, I don't think so. I don't think so. But by never showing your work to anybody, like, and you being like the judge, the jury, the ex exit, well, how long t 

[01:10:04] Tommy: is the right of proper amount of time before you show someone 10 years?

[01:10:08] Some people they don't have, you don't, this could be a thing that maybe I don't wanna, or don't have to show anyone. I, I think that's, you definitely have that right? True as well. Yeah, definitely have 

[01:10:18] Toliy: that. Right? You definitely have, have, have that, right? It could be, it 

[01:10:19] Tommy: could be. But if you guys, for example, have seen the videos that I've created for, for the project, right?

[01:10:24] Yeah. So that's, I think that's a, you know, that should be considered, uh, I would consider that an improvement. If, if this is what, if what you say is true. 

[01:10:33] Eldar: No, I, I definitely think that you were shooting in the right direction when it comes to the project. Like you were on the right path or the track. Now how you engage in it and what transpired from it is definitely not.

[01:10:45] What you want or what I want. For example, that's why I had to have, have had to have that talk with you yesterday. Like, Hey, if you quit, you quit. Like, tell me, like, give me a heads up, right? Because yeah, we were rolling and then we weren't rolling, right? Mm-hmm. I told you specifically that like, when that drop off happens, that's why I want to have, you know, 20, 30 videos in the bank.

[01:11:03] I guess the weird thing is I don't want 

[01:11:04] Tommy: like the first thing that I do to kind of be, you know, like, I guess, you know, say finish that thought, it's maybe failure or, you know. Exactly. It's not even failure. 

[01:11:15] Eldar: It's, it's sort of like, it's you applying the same stuff. Yeah. To, to my ideology, which doesn't work.

[01:11:20] It's oil and water. What do you mean? The applying the same stuff? Like, like I know our shit's not gonna be perfect and our shit might stink a little bit, but that's okay. You know what I mean? But with time, we are gonna polish things up and we're gonna get good at it, you know, where you are like, no, I gotta get really good at it, and then we do it.

[01:11:39] You know what I mean? And I think that's like, 

[01:11:43] Tommy: yeah, right, right now it's gonna progress. Now I feel like, it's like, it's weird the way that I'm doing things. It's like, I think that like I'm kind of creating gibberish, you know? Or, or I'm, I totally started this approach wrong or, you know, or maybe it's like, you know, the thing that deters me me's wrong, 

[01:11:59] Mike: wrong on what?

[01:12:00] Like who's, who's telling you that it's wrong? Is it us? Well, that, 

[01:12:04] Toliy: that, that, that's, that, that is what I'm saying is like the issue, Tom is the judge, the jury, the ex mm-hmm. Er, 

[01:12:10] Mike: yeah. 

[01:12:10] Toliy: In his world on all of these different things. And to me, if like. For as long as he chooses to, to be that. Yeah. I think he'll, like, he probably won't get anywhere because like I did, I, I personally disagree with his judgment on things in this realm.

[01:12:27] Like probably over nine, nine, like over over 90%. Right. So like, yeah, like we're probably not gonna agree or see eye to eye on these kind of things, which, which is definitely okay. Like he can write his book and he can never show it to anybody if he wants to. He definitely, I'd prefer that ha heads that.

[01:12:47] Right. Right. Um, but like if you, if he's, if, if you're doing that, but then you're openly struggling with things and then like you're asking for solutions and help. Yeah. Like, I think it's gonna come to a point of, of either whether like you're gonna seek help and be humble enough to listen, to learn and do things differently, or you're gonna kind of rot away and you're delusion because the, the proof is always on whether the person's happy or not.

[01:13:15] That's right. Yes. And we, and, and we constantly go through it. Right? Yeah. And when someone says that that're the sickness still is a sickness. Yes. If you, if like you can, like, I could definitely look at people and like, you know, like, at, at least the people I know and see like who's, you know, rarely happy, who's like, you know, somewhat happy, who's very happy, right.

[01:13:36] Um, and like, yeah, for like, as long as I know Tom, I feel like he's, you know. Unhappy with what he's doing and how he's going about it. You know, like he always is trying to, well, 

[01:13:47] Eldar: it also helps that he does the testimonies. Yes. He gives us the testimonies. Right. He does constantly jumps from one thing to another, from one project to another, from school to books, from school to book.

[01:13:55] Right. Like starting quitting. Starting quitting. And there's never kind of a cohesion, right. Where it's like, alright, cool, I'm gonna find the balance and actually pursue that for a long period of time in order to get somewhere. Right. He's, yeah. 

[01:14:06] Toliy: Now, now if Tom moves to like a Okinawa, so it's kind of broken, you know, and he's living, he's broken.

[01:14:11] It's very choppy. And he's living in like a, like a Okinawa is what, in, uh, Japan. Yeah. Right. Like in the, in like a peaceful, quiet village. And he's just like gonna write his book and he lives on like a farm and he blends in with the people. Yeah. And he just contributes, you know, to do some stuff around.

[01:14:28] And he gets his, you know, nice food and good tea and like, so he can live with his imaginary friends all he wants. And he, yeah. Yeah. And he just writes his book and no one ever sees it. And then he lives a peaceful life. And I wouldn't buy a copy 

[01:14:38] Mike: right now, $500 to never see 

[01:14:40] Eldar: it. 500. I'll pay $5,000. Yeah. To never Yeah.

[01:14:43] For it never to come out. 

[01:14:44] Mike: No. I like to buy a copy that I can never see as well. Oh, the one you cannot see everything. Yeah. Yes, I'll take that. Yes. Um, whereas reserve a copy. Yeah. So, 

[01:14:52] Toliy: so like if you're, if you're that guy, yeah. If you're about that life, then you do and you gotta go do that. You gotta do it.

[01:14:58] Correct. Yeah. I agree. But if you're not, then we have a conversation. Yes. Especially if someone is asking for help, especially if someone is vocalizing unhappiness. 

[01:15:08] Eldar: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I agree. I agree with that. 

[01:15:12] Mike: Hmm. Well, based on You're not here or there? Think 

[01:15:14] Eldar: about it, Tom. There's 

[01:15:15] Mike: a 12 candies. I'm pretty sure he is very unhappy.

[01:15:17] Four. Four. Okay. Yeah. So are we 

[01:15:21] Tommy: onto something Tom? Um, oh, I, I wanted to add, I wanted to add to this is that I guess like, no, maybe I don't, maybe I don't wanna add to it. 

[01:15:34] Eldar: Are we onto something, Tom? Are we onto you? Are you onto something and are you onto yourself finally? Right. Can you find that, that focus?

[01:15:42] Can you find that which is gonna finally empower you and get you to a place of an identity that you actually enjoy and you're proud of? 

[01:15:50] Toliy: No. And I'll tell you the only thing that, that could like, get Tom to a place where that could actually be possible. Hmm. Um, I think Tom is not like good enough or qualified enough for him to be under his own supervision.

[01:16:05] Okay. You know, this is why we need a plan. So he Yeah. He needs to be supervised. He needs to be supervised and mentored and held accountable by somebody. Yeah. And held accountable. Mm-hmm. For somebody that understands like what the fuck's going on, what the fuck's going on in some like life principles. Mm.

[01:16:18] Right. And when he can do that for long enough. Yeah. And get some of those ideologies and some of those principles and fill into him. 

[01:16:25] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:16:25] Toliy: Then he can govern himself in a uhhuh better way that will lead him to being happy. But for so long as like he has his own like arena, his own playground that he plays in.

[01:16:36] Yeah. And he makes the rules in, I think it's impossible. Impossible. And I'm wanna bed the house on the, 

[01:16:42] Eldar: this is why he sometimes still peeks his head and returns home. 'cause he, his soul may be internally actually knows, is never 

[01:16:49] Tommy: gonna answer that question,

[01:16:54] Eldar: you know? Yeah. It's crazy man. 

[01:16:56] Toliy: It's crazy. You, you can't govern yourself if, if, if, if, if you don't know, like right from wrong up from down. Like you just can't. And if you're constantly unhappy with your life, then that, that's probably who you are, right? 

[01:17:14] Tommy: Yeah. 

[01:17:14] Toliy: Um, and you need to be under like the mentorship and like the tutelage.

[01:17:19] I got you, Tom. Um, you need to be under a close, full watch of someone like Eldar for example. Whoa. Who understands, you know, up from down. Hmm. But that, 

[01:17:35] Tommy: I'm not gonna say, okay, for the last couple of months I've been doing so and so, and this justifies more what I've, you know, what, what, what I've been up to, you know, why, why haven't been here?

[01:17:44] Oh, you always hear Tom though. You always have, Tom needs 

[01:17:45] Toliy: someone that, Tom needs someone that, that lives by mathematic principles. Mm-hmm. Right. Logical. 'cause that will, that will remove delusion always. If you live in that kind of way, it will prevent delusion from like a, like a viral bacteria from forming mm-hmm.

[01:18:02] Inside of you, you know? Um, that's why I think it's very important for, um. It, it's, it, it's like Harris, right? Like, you know, like if he's left to his own thoughts and his own ways of doing things, yeah. He's like a bacteria that's gonna keep on growing and spreading everywhere, kill himself, and all parts of his life are gonna be bad.

[01:18:22] But when you combine, for example, us and we can help in certain things. Like we try to like, you know, clean out the bacteria and try to Yeah. Dispel the ignorance. Uh, develop new, new, new cells, right? Yeah. Yeah. That, that can actually fight for him, and that can actually That's right. Help him in those different parts about life, whether it's, you know, sleeping or exercising or eating or like doing particular things up until a point where he can govern himself on those things, right?

[01:18:48] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:18:49] Toliy: So like that, that, that to me is like, but, but I could be wrong. I could be wrong, but I don't think that Thomas as brave as Harris when it comes to this kind of stuff. Well, because what, like for Harris to, for 

[01:19:07] Eldar: to Tom, you, you, you agree that you suffer from paranoia, right? 

[01:19:10] Tommy: No, I don't. 

[01:19:11] Eldar: You don't? I 

[01:19:12] Tommy: don't, I 

[01:19:13] Toliy: don't 

[01:19:13] Eldar: agree with that.

[01:19:14] Okay. 

[01:19:15] Tommy: Um, severe anxiety. Not, not, not paranoia, severe anxiety. Um, no, just sad unhappiness that Yeah. I would say, I would say, 

[01:19:25] Toliy: yeah, I am unhappy, but Created, but created from paranoia and anxiety. Right? Uh, fear. Fear, right. No, 

[01:19:34] Tommy: no, no. I think just maybe get, um. Maybe, maybe guilt, shame, uh, maybe some anxiety. Yeah.

[01:19:40] Toliy: Right. Which, which, which stem from like an anxiety. Correct.

[01:19:48] Like, you, you don't have a scenario where like, 

[01:19:51] Tommy: well, like I, every time you walk, just where my perfectionist comes in, I guess for me, my perfectionist comes in from, you know, from, uh, wanting to do something, wanting to do it. Right, right. Like, um, and how do I do that? Like, you know, I, I, I, I mentioned today in the car, I was like, when I wanna learn something, I first see if there's a book about it.

[01:20:13] There. I guess part of this project too, it made me, made me think like, you know, um, I, I failed to go and do films. When I got into this program a year ago, I was, I came in, I was excited about it. I was like, yeah, you know, I got accepted this film program or whatever. I didn't, I didn't do it, you know, I didn't go through it.

[01:20:35] I think I have reasons, I still kind of have reasons for not going into that program. Um, part of my inner enemy is that I don't have a lot of, um, I don't have a lot of room for mobility. Like, for me, you know, like, I, what does that mean? What I bumped into, I bumped into my, uh, cousin's boyfriend at mm-hmm.

[01:20:59] Um, at Ridgewood Coffee the other day. 

[01:21:01] Mm-hmm. 

[01:21:02] Okay. And, um, and. We were talking for a little bit, and I said, I said basically this to him about my, about my, uh, college education or like, just in ge edu education in general. And, and I feel like after I said it, I, I'd almost felt like an untruth, like not something, not a lie, but not necessarily true.

[01:21:26] Um, I was like, I didn't have such a good experience with college. That's what it was. It was like I was talking about college. I didn't have such a good experience with college. Um, and this was kind of in relationship to, you know, like, like out there some, there are people who are clearly very, very talented.

[01:21:48] Like my, my roommate, my old, my former roommate who was, you know, by all means, very, very smart, um, in many, many areas, you know, very, very intelligent. You know, there's just, you know, clearly here's someone with like an enormous amount of information. They know a lot, you know, well, for me, in comparison to someone like that, I would say, you know, I'm kind of a lesser being, you know, like to, so I said, I said to him, I, I didn't have a very, I didn't have the great greatest college experience and like, and, and for me.

[01:22:29] I don't remember how, what the context was, but I, I explained to him that I'm like, not a sophisticated, you know, like that, you know, there are, you know, obviously there are things that I shouldn't even be talk, not that I shouldn't, you see what I'm saying? Like, I'm exaggerating here, but like, I shouldn't even be talking about, like, I would just be battling to be talking to you about, I don't know, physics, for example.

[01:22:52] Yeah. Physics or Haida girl, or yeah, maybe I know a little bit about one or two mm-hmm. Things, you know. Yeah. Um, uh, but yeah, you know, so, but, but then I, I wondered, you know, I'm te I'm typically, typically the kind of person who like, hands out advice about just stuff that's like, accumulated in my mind as a result of being friends with good friends.

[01:23:19] Whoa, whoa, being curious. Hold on. Let me, let me explain. Being curious to about my past as a result. Like this is a, a direct result of having good friends, good friends have, has helped me turn inward, give unsolicited advice to people, not turn inward people. No, no, no, no, no. It's not that. It's like, I think that when you feel love in your heart, and I think that's where it comes from, you know, like there's a true potential to help another being.

[01:23:49] And I, maybe I shy away more now, FF uh, from doing that for some total stranger, you know, like. And that's, I think that's just self-explanatory. I think, I think there was probably a time where like, you know, like I exhaust myself trying to help people or the world, and this is like a persona or a role that I start to play.

[01:24:15] It's like my ego doing this, but it's more like, you know, I, I kind of take it from you, Elda, I take this, I take this kind of mindset from you, like you persist and you do something for a very specific reason. I know that like, I don't always see the clear, I don't always see clearly why you do things the way that you do.

[01:24:36] Um, but, but I do know that you have, uh, you have a kind of philosophy, a way that you operate that kind of defines how you, you know, have, how, how you nurture relationships with others, like with your close friends, uh, and with people in general. Like you could be expected to be quite consistent in your way.

[01:25:03] Okay. And, and for us, that's resulted I think, in great friendships. I think, I think it's, it's part of the reason why I feel comfortable, right. Learning and doing things that I truly care about in a way that I never really thought about when I was a kid because I was a misfit and I hung out with people who are not really into feelings and talking about them, uh, who were more closed up than they were, you know, like who more into party obviously, and doing that kind of stuff.

[01:25:28] Um, but like it's made me curious to honor that. Like, I think that one truth for me is it's, it's, I'm very curious to honor what it means to be a friend, a good friend, um, and in a very unique, unique way that, you know, I, I don't meet, you know, I don't often meet people who have, have, have had my situation, have actually experienced what I experienced.

[01:25:58] Mm-hmm. 

[01:25:58] And it's, it's very unique, like, you know, um, to hear that your wife's friend that she met was in a youth group or like in a brother sister program that's like, that lights up a light bulb for me. Hmm. Where it's like, it, it's a huge reminder that in communities, places like this exist 

[01:26:19] mm-hmm. 

[01:26:20] That, you know, that there's, um, that there's, uh, that there's a possibility to, to get out of the mess that you're in.

[01:26:31] That, that, that's what I take from, that's what I kind of synthesize from, you know, like my early twenties when I was kind of roaming and I was kind of drifting and I was kind of unsure and or confused. Um, and you know, like for me, I try to like take something from that where I'm like, where's the, where's the fucking moment when I crossed over and everything was like, you know, like a new world, a new life for me.

[01:26:59] You know, like I'm literally looking for that. I'm looking for, you know, I'm looking for something that really doesn't, doesn't have a certain point in time. Like, see, he's looking for dementia. It's 

[01:27:11] Toliy: there. 

[01:27:12] Tommy: It's huh? 

[01:27:13] Toliy: He's looking for 

[01:27:13] dementia. Yeah. Is what he's saying. What? That was 

[01:27:22] Mike: a question 

[01:27:22] Toliy: I had. 

[01:27:23] Mike: Mm-hmm.

[01:27:24] Yeah. I think it ties into what totally is saying. I. Are you, do you, uh, you want to still keep punishing yourself, like, about the choices? Like he, like he sings that story a lot of the time. Yeah. I was like, oh, I was this bad kid. I was this misfit kid. Like, do you just, is this your goal to like, for your rest of your life, just to keep punishing yourself on it?

[01:27:40] I, I think it's like a more, more of like a crutch. A crutch. Okay. Well, yeah, you know, it's something 

[01:27:46] Toliy: that you can lean, lean on and give yourself an excuse. 'cause like, I mean, I 

[01:27:49] Mike: mean this is a long time ago, a crutch. He spoke about it many occasions. Yes. Yeah. Many times. And like, you just want to keep identifying with this person.

[01:27:55] Like, yes. I had also bad, very bad times in my life, you know, for example, relationships was one of the lowest points in my life, but I don't talk about it all the time, and I don't like, relate to that. And like, uh, like, as like, I don't know, not that it's like a pro, almost, like he's proud of it. Like, in a weird way, like that, like, but also like disgusted by it.

[01:28:20] It's very fucking weird, you know? Like that you came out of it. Yeah. It's good. But like, that's it. Now you have to do something else. 

[01:28:26] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:28:26] Mike: You know, like, no, but it gives you a reason to not do something else, but No, that's what I'm saying. Okay. 

[01:28:32] Tommy: So, okay. So I'll say that I, I am looking in a way, and I'm not, I'm not actively looking, but like, I do think about that because, uh, because, because the sober anxiety is where I get, I trip up, you know, where it's like, how could, how could life still be so, such hell when I came out of that?

[01:28:52] Do you see what I'm saying? Well, because, well, how the fuck am I suffering this much when that's what I came from? Yeah. Because of the 

[01:28:59] Eldar: conclusions you 

[01:29:00] Toliy: made. Yeah. You're, you're, you're, you're still in that, you're 

[01:29:04] Tommy: still in that hell, you still wanna keep punishing yourself. Yeah. I think there is a part of it that really feeds into it.

[01:29:09] Yeah. Like either in either way, like yeah. That it feeds into who I was or who I was, feeds into who I am. Yeah. And it continue, it's a 

[01:29:17] Eldar: perpetual cycle of suffering for yourself. Yeah. 

[01:29:20] Toliy: That's what I was saying is that like you, you, you, you need an immovable force of truth, which is not it's 

[01:29:27] Tommy: art. No. You need, no, I need art.

[01:29:29] That's it. Like, that's it. From here, from here 

[01:29:32] Toliy: forward, you need the, I need art. You need the opposite of art. You need math. No. So that you can dispel the delusions that you've been drawing, drawing yourself, math. You ever seen that show? What kind of kind math 

[01:29:46] Mike: we talking about What The Apprentice said You're fired.

[01:29:47] Yeah. 

[01:29:48] Toliy: You 

[01:29:48] Mike: fire 

[01:29:49] Toliy: yourself, man. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Like he, he only associates with like this creative and this arch shit. Yeah. Because it never, like, it never gets to anywhere. It's a 

[01:29:59] Eldar: forever loop. Well, it's a forever, like, in a way it's a forever, you can always find an exit. Yes. In a way. 

[01:30:04] Tommy: Yeah. You 

[01:30:05] Toliy: can 

[01:30:05] Tommy: always exit off No highway way justify.

[01:30:07] I don't associate with the creative art shit. For me, it's like, it's basically that this art shit is associated with something else. Yeah. So it's like, yeah. The art, that's what it is. 

[01:30:18] Toliy: Tom is so into art because Tom be, because art has no like. No beginning or end? No beginning, no end, no repercussions, no examination, no right or wrong.

[01:30:28] Correct. Right. And that, that's what I'm saying. The only way, Tom, for you to get to, to, to, to fix these things and to get to a place where you're living a better life is to, um, find a mentor like El, who's extremely good at life math. 

[01:30:44] Tommy: Okay. So what if I told you that one of my deepest fears is that I'm like colluding with others to basically keep myself like in the same place and never go anywhere?

[01:30:53] You know 

[01:30:54] Toliy: your one of your biggest fears. Yeah. So, so it's like 

[01:30:56] Tommy: coll, so like Co Mike was saying yesterday, Mike was saying, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Lemme explain. I'll give you an example. No, this is, I'm break it down for you. Let him break it down first. We have to break it down. No, I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna give you an example.

[01:31:08] Have I say I don't want an example? Say it kind of off the cuff. 

[01:31:11] Toliy: I I wanna know what, because you're gonna wrap Tom. Yeah. I'm not what you said first. I'm not. You said that your biggest fear. Is that the word? So the only reason I know this word is because I hear it in sports. Yeah. The word co collusion, uhhuh is when there's people that are like, like Colin Kaepernick mm-hmm.

[01:31:28] Was suing the NFL for collusion. Mm-hmm. He said that the NFL got together was telling, was telling the owners together Yes. Together to don't sign this guy. That's important. That's collusion. Collusion. Yeah. And that's illegal. Yeah. In, in any business. Yeah. Like, you can't be doing that. Mm-hmm. Right? Because then you're, you're like not giving a fair chance, basically.

[01:31:44] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you, so, so you are saying that your biggest fear is that you're colluding what? 

[01:31:50] Tommy: Yeah. With either my family or with friends. So your, to basically keep myself where I am, you know, so stagnant. So how, how does that 

[01:31:57] Toliy: make sense? Can, can, can, can we define that? Well, 

[01:32:00] Mike: let's Yeah. Break 

[01:32:00] Toliy: that down for, for instance.

[01:32:01] Yeah. It makes 

[01:32:01] Mike: sense in his head because he doesn't actually believe that he deserves something good. No. So he wants to keep putting himself down. No, fine. 

[01:32:07] Toliy: Find that. But I want to use the words that he's, he's using and I wanna define them and I wanna see what, what he's actually saying. Okay. I see what you mean.

[01:32:16] In the terms of, so like I, I said, I was saying it off the cuff, co colluding, colluding, like. I don't mean that you can collude with yourself because it's like, no, 

[01:32:24] Eldar: no. I think that you can collude with parties that are not in on the collusion. Yes. And I'm not sure if what co no people 

[01:32:30] Toliy: can collude against you or you can collude against others.

[01:32:32] No, it's what 

[01:32:33] Eldar: der said. Yeah. Like what Tom is doing. He's saying that he's colluding with us. I am not on, in, on this No, no collusion thing. Yeah. How, how, like, how can we be colluding or he's colluding with us when we're not 

[01:32:44] Mike: in on a joke. This is a Truman show. He created a Truman show. He in his own head that we're all in.

[01:32:50] Yes. He thinks we're in 

[01:32:50] Toliy: the 

[01:32:51] Mike: show. 

[01:32:51] Toliy: No, Tom, we are not. 

[01:32:53] Tommy: No. Well, I'm not saying, I'm not saying that first of all, all No, no, you, but I am saying, I am saying in a way, and I am, I am admitting that I am unhappy, but I, at the same time I admit, I admit that I'm kind of like deceptive or like I'm not, I'm not very clear about how I feel because I don't, first of all, I don't even confront No, no.

[01:33:11] Toliy: But Tom, how I feel. Do you, do you know that you are not deceptive though? What do you mean? You you cannot deceive us and you've never, never have, you can only deceive yourself. You, you, you may think at moments that you're deceiving us, you're getting there something, but we actually know what's going on.

[01:33:26] We're just okay with you li with you living in, in, in your life, for example. Or you living in, you're delusive. So is 

[01:33:33] Tommy: it fair enough to say that in a way I am colluding because I'm being passive to this? 

[01:33:38] Toliy: Well, no, you, you, you think that you're like doing things to trick others to. To play a role in your stagnation, right?

[01:33:45] Tommy: No, not, not purposefully. No, not 

[01:33:48] Toliy: purposefully, but later on, like I, I 

[01:33:50] Tommy: rethink things and I nail bite over things and all that kind of shit. 

[01:33:54] Toliy: No, but you're saying that like this is what's happening, but we on the outside, we, we may not tell this to you, to you directly, right. But we, we, like you cannot deceive us.

[01:34:04] It's impossible. Like we know exactly what's going on, 

[01:34:08] Tommy: the things that you're saying doing. Okay. So it's an unfair assumption, but like, let's, and I'm not, I'm not assuming that, but I am kind of saying, what if, you know, like what if, um, you know, what if in some way, uh, like my attachment to, you know, my parents in some way or our relationship, and this was something Mike commented on yesterday.

[01:34:27] It was like, you know, it, the, the relationship is, is kind of dysfunctional and, and sort of you, you, you don't feel like you have a way out out of this. That's kind of what I'm saying. A, a way outta what though? So it's like, so anything. It could be anything. It's like Tommy comes in and he does his, uh, he is, does his routine.

[01:34:47] He's, he's there for a while and, and like, I totally accept this and this is just, just gonna happen again and again. And clearly this is kind of like what the situation is. I don't want to feel as if I actually, no, I, I say, I would say this. I feel unhappy. Feeling that, or I feel unhappy f um, to, to, he's saying 

[01:35:09] Mike: that 

[01:35:10] Toliy: afraid he's the Truman show.

[01:35:11] This is, and he's the experience Actual Truman. Yeah. Yeah. Like he, he's saying that he's, he doesn't feel a way out of this situation with his parents. Right. And I'm asking, what do, what do you not like? Do you not feel like, do you not see a way like to move out, for example? Like, what's, what's the, Mike, do you remember what it was that you said yesterday where 

[01:35:27] Tommy: it was like, do you understand all that?

[01:35:28] You were like, your, your, your, your relationship with your parents is this way? And I was like, no, it's not, it's not like that. Do you remember that? 

[01:35:35] Mike: No. 

[01:35:35] Tommy: No. Okay. I, I forgot what it was exactly. Must have 

[01:35:38] Mike: been a moment of alignment. I don't remember. 

[01:35:40] Tommy: I forgot what it was. It was, it was something very, it was very like, um, 

[01:35:45] Mike: well that's speaking about your parents or my parents, because I think it might be the same story.

[01:35:49] It's a dysfunctional relationship where people use each other as anchors and crutches to keep each other down and not help, like 

[01:35:57] Tommy: mm-hmm. 

[01:35:59] Mike: Not become empowered to bring themselves out of it. That is exactly what's happening right now in my family, in my house. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe that's what I was saying.

[01:36:07] And I mean, 

[01:36:08] Tommy: it could be a very, that's like a huge reality. I mean, I mean it's, it could be very, uh, poisonous in a way, I think. Well, the 

[01:36:14] Mike: thing is, a lot of it is the, the, a lot of that stuff is the truth because most people, they're just like getting by in their lives. They're not like, uh, thriving and trying to improve their quality of life.

[01:36:23] They're just trying to make it, they're just like, you know, floating. Yes. No, no, but floating water. If, 

[01:36:29] Toliy: if, if you're not a person that is being like, like. Like in Tommy's scenario, like he is supposed to be stuck in his family's dynamic and in his family's, for example, house. 

[01:36:42] Tommy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:36:43] Toliy: Because like, he won't put himself in a position where he is, uh, one vulnerable mm-hmm.

[01:36:49] And two, like accountable for his actions. And three, like where he's actually being directly like, well, well, well, that, that's, that's later. But, but like, mentored by somebody that can like, help set him straight and help him understand the world. Yeah. And understand like what's actually going on. I, I see, I see artists.

[01:37:08] I see 

[01:37:09] Tommy: artists 

[01:37:09] Toliy: as my 

[01:37:10] Tommy: mentors. I'll be, I'll be honest. The books that I read. Yeah. And the movies that I watch are, they, are my mentors. And as long 

[01:37:16] Toliy: as they are your men 

[01:37:17] Tommy: mentors No, no, no, no, no. Don't say anything negative. 'cause I won't, I wanna hear it. I will say a concerted effort meaning like, no, a, a focused effort or a, uh, being meticulous about these things.

[01:37:27] As you said, doing them mathematically is a kind of new thing to me. I do, I do understand that. But because this kind of phase of it being new is now growing into a phase of it being more intermediate. Like, I think I have some more awareness now of Yeah. But see, like what you just said, what these, what it means to be accountable in this specific thing.

[01:37:48] Yeah. I In terms of creating stuff? 

[01:37:51] Toliy: Yeah. Like the, the words that you just said is like, don't, don't, like, don't say that in that kind of, or, or, or like way. Mm-hmm. Right. Because I think you knew what I'm about to say. Like, yeah. That, that, that shows 

[01:38:01] Tommy: you, I live in, I live in this stuff and I take it seriously.

[01:38:04] So that's where I feel like that's where my boundary is. No, 

[01:38:07] Toliy: but 

[01:38:07] Tommy: you 

[01:38:08] Toliy: think that you take it seriously? 

[01:38:09] Tommy: No, I take it seriously and I live in it. Those are the words that I am asking for you to, like, what does it mean? Take something seriously. I live in this stuff. Like, you live in sports or you live in UFC and these, um, these fighters, they, they're, you know, they sort of occupy a place in your mind about, you know, who is up, up and coming.

[01:38:28] Who is, who is showing true promise, who's showing character? Who is fastest now, who, uh, who is better on the ground, or, you know, okay, who is better with grappling or whatever. I, I, you know, I respect that. No, but they're not my mentors in life. This is 

[01:38:43] Toliy: No, 

[01:38:43] Tommy: uh, okay. 

[01:38:44] Toliy: So they, they're not gonna, they're not gonna teach me how to live or dictate my life.

[01:38:47] You're saying that these people are, 

[01:38:49] Tommy: well, well see, I, the thing is, I don't know if I need a mentor, but these things guide me. I, I'll say that they're creative, 

[01:38:57] Toliy: but the ufc, I, their creativity guides me. They're not the ones that guide me. That I think is what, what the difference is. So, so it's definitely not, so you have a, 

[01:39:04] Tommy: clearly you have a passion for something.

[01:39:06] You have a passion for sports or you have a passion for watching these athletes compete with each other. Am I 

[01:39:11] Toliy: right? Well, sure, but they're, they're not mentoring me or teaching me how to go about life or. 

[01:39:16] Tommy: Uh, so I, I don't know if I need someone to tell me though, if that, if this is what you say I need a mentor for, um, if you weren't referring to, I need a mentor to show, to help me through film or creating films or, or writing stories.

[01:39:29] I mean, I wouldn't entirely disagree with that. Well, I'm saying you're leaning towards saying this is they have to tell you how to live life 

[01:39:35] Toliy: well, yeah. I'm saying that like real, real, like if, if your, if your, if, if your own testimony saying that you are bad at living life and you, if you are constantly unhappy and constantly rerouting yourself, then you need a mentor that's gonna teach you how to live life.

[01:39:51] Like, I, I strongly agree with that. I, my, 

[01:39:53] Tommy: my, my effort has been all, my focus has been going through the last few years, I think to live towards a creative life. And I, I have had to actually ask myself what that looks like, what that means, how, without even, how would that even play out? Without even considering how, how my relationship to life has been like in terms of, you know, their creativity has played a long role in my life.

[01:40:16] Um, but mostly a, not a dormant role, but a denying role. Like a, a sort of like denying it and a, a blocked role, you know? Yeah. 

[01:40:27] Toliy: I, I don't, I don't know what that means, but I, I could tell you what it means, like, no, but I'm saying that like in high school, you're trying to live a better life throughout school.

[01:40:33] Right. I sketched 

[01:40:35] Tommy: throughout school. I did, I I really leaned into creative things at, uh, when, you know, even young Yes. 

[01:40:42] Toliy: We're, we're, we're stuck in the same place. Oh, hold on. Oh, we always are. We always come back to the same place. Yeah. We always come back to the same, same. Rightfully. So 

[01:40:48] Eldar: I think this is a, a block that needs to be built.

[01:40:50] Yeah. You, that you don't have to hear my 

[01:40:51] Tommy: list here of these experiences. You may not have had them. You may have 

[01:40:55] Eldar: had them. I mean, the person clearly identifies with a very specific thing. Yeah. Tom, you, you have the right to do so. Yes, yes. Our argument is only one, one here. Right. Is that we Right. Based on our observations, Uhhuh, don't feel confident that the path that you're taking in what you're describing is gonna lead you to a happy place.

[01:41:13] You are under the depression that it will, well, the jury's still out. I'm not sure and we'll see. I, I think Right. That's in terms of y 

[01:41:19] Toliy: Yeah. No, I, I'm under the impression that Tommy's raising in Santa saying, Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm unhappy in general and I need help. Yeah. Right. And to me, if that is the case, then you need, uh, a, a life mentor that understands how to live life in a way to make you happy.

[01:41:37] And if you don't get that. There's no chance to crawl out of this if, if you're looking to these writers and these film creators to teach you how to live life and to teach you and like to mentor you to be happy, I think there's zero chance to, to do that in, in my opinion. I don't think, I don't see any, that's the thing.

[01:41:55] Tommy: I don't think they need to mentor me to be happy, I think. No, but 

[01:41:57] Toliy: you just said that your mentors are these people? 

[01:42:00] Tommy: No, I live in kind of conversation with them, I guess you could say. So it's not like a, you know, a rational one. It's not some kind of delusion. Yeah. I guess I live in conversation with these people.

[01:42:09] No, but it is a 

[01:42:10] Toliy: delusion. 

[01:42:11] Tommy: Okay. If you wanna call it that. Sure. 

[01:42:13] Toliy: Well, like that's fine. You don't talk to them, right? You just, like, you, you read their books or you, you, you watch their movies, right? 

[01:42:19] Tommy: Well, I write about it or, you know. No, 

[01:42:21] Toliy: but I'm saying that you don't have dialogue. I explore it creatively. You don't have dialogue with them.

[01:42:24] Tommy: Well, I mean, it's not a like, um, you know, so like I said, I'm new to this and so, you know, you have to take it with a grain of salt. But, uh, these are the things I care about. And I've talked about that many times and mentioned a number of times that, um, I'm doing what makes me happy. I'm doing what I enjoy to do.

[01:42:42] Yeah. So then we have no, the, we have no conversation. Yeah. And that's 

[01:42:45] Toliy: exactly what, what I said before we started this. 

[01:42:46] Tommy: Yeah. 

[01:42:47] Toliy: There, there is no problem here. 

[01:42:48] Tommy: But, but at the same time, but at the same time, we're overlooking, I'll take that holder. At the same time. I think we're overlooking what it is that in me as an individual, what I, what I dream about, what I want, what I wanna do with my life.

[01:43:03] Like, as, as to like say I. I wanna live the best, you know, life while I have, while I have a life to live. And so it's, you know, like, this is kind of touchy because I could say, yeah, I want things, I want money, I want a new car and stuff. But really I'm learning how to like, separate these things, um, when talking about, you know, wanting, um, yeah, maybe the, the, the, the thing, the desire to be pulled into a material thing is there, you know?

[01:43:37] But I, I really would like to know the essence of what I enjoy and really like, let it feed that potential to do something great. You know? And that's all I aspire to. The issue is that, and, and to actually really believe this and to believe it's true, um, like I have to see it fully through life. Like I have to actually, you know, be in the present 

[01:44:00] Eldar: moment.

[01:44:01] Then you must give it at a good crack. You should go to school. You should get the, the artistic mentors, right? You should try to write a play or whatever. And you should actually see that through. 'cause otherwise, if this is a loose end, you will never be happy. That's what it sounds like. 

[01:44:14] Toliy: Hey. No, I, I was gonna say a, uh, like, to, to, to, to me, especially when, when, when I hear to Tommy say it if like a desire without the proper, like, like humility and, and actionable willingness to like learn.

[01:44:31] It's just a desire for mental illness. That's all it is. 

[01:44:35] Eldar: Oh shit. I agree with that. 

[01:44:36] Toliy: Right. I agree with that. And that like, the way I hear about it is like, Tom is only desiring for more mental illness. Why? Because I see it. No, but why is he desiring that? Well, because he doesn't have the 

[01:44:48] humility to, to properly learn.

[01:44:54] He's too arrogant. So if you're super 

[01:44:57] arrogant and you have desires, you are just raising your hand and being a magnet for mental illness for yourself. Yes. That's the only thing that you'll get from, from, from, from it. Like even what, what you said, go see it through. Like that's actual actionable. I know things.

[01:45:16] That's what I'm saying. Possibility grades. That's actual, well, we did, 

[01:45:18] Eldar: we did that with Philip, right? Yeah. We've encouraged him to finally said what he wants to do and how he wants to do it. And I said to him, well, the stuff that you're saying, this is not here. It's somewhere else. And I wouldn't wanna hold you back here from doing that.

[01:45:32] Go pursue the actual acting. Go pursue the actual art. Art of art to be happy to actualize yourself. Because I would, I wouldn't want anyone to be here to feel a certain type of way where they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing or like doing. 

[01:45:47] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. And that's what, and you think he's doing that well?

[01:45:50] I don't. I don't. I don't care. No, no, but no, no, but I know. But gun 

[01:45:53] to your head. I hope so. Gun to your head.

[01:46:02] I don't know probably than that. You think he dove in and went all in? 

[01:46:06] Eldar: That's 

[01:46:06] Toliy: what 

[01:46:07] Eldar: we planned for him. 

[01:46:08] Toliy: Because if you're gonna leave here, you better go do that. 

[01:46:11] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:46:11] Toliy: If not, you're asking for a, 

[01:46:14] a lifelong mental illness. 

[01:46:16] Tommy: Yeah, 

[01:46:17] Toliy: yeah,

[01:46:21] yeah. So like that, that, that 

[01:46:23] last bit like, I mean, like, I, I already like knew, uh, like, uh, knew it, but like, like Tom to, to me, Tommy's attitude towards his things and Tommy's way about going to to things will only lead him to like, he'll, he'll, he, he's, he is gonna keep walking the same loop over and over again and we're gonna keep coming here every single time.

[01:46:43] Eldar: How, how does 

[01:46:44] Toliy: he have to 

[01:46:45] Eldar: show up next time or whatever in order to break it? Well, I told you he has to be, he has to be at your 

[01:46:51] Toliy: mercy.

[01:46:55] Oh my God. Yeah. Not, and not even like, in like a bad way. He needs to, like, he, he, he needs a life Men me mentor. Well, listen, just, just the willingness to, to get that to me shows that you're. You're humble enough to like to listen to somebody out and then when you're humble enough, no, hold on, hold on. Let just to hear someone else out.

[01:47:16] Lemme stop you. Before you, if you could do that, you 

[01:47:18] Tommy: get carried away with this one sec Boulder. You're rolling down the hill. If you 

[01:47:20] Toliy: could, if you could, if you could do that consistently Yeah. Then you show that you can be humble enough consistently. Yeah. And now you put yourself in a position to actually succeed and doing the right math And to act.

[01:47:31] Yeah. To act, to actually understand, put things together how life math works, and then slowly but surely, you will need less of this mentor and you'll have more abilities to govern yourself and do, and do things like in, in a way where you can, um, um, seek things and get the desired outcomes that you're looking out of them.

[01:47:52] And then you can one day teach others to, to do that as well. 

[01:47:56] Tommy: Okay. I think that's a 

[01:47:57] Eldar: filibuster that calls for final thoughts. All right. Well hit us with it. What are your final thoughts, Tom? I guess the topic was of who's Tom and what does Tom want and why is Tom 

[01:48:10] Tommy: I'll pass. Nah. Oh wait. Yeah. What are my final thoughts about who is Tom and why, why is Tom and so on?

[01:48:17] Yeah. Yeah. Um, 

[01:48:19] Eldar: did you get anything back from this? Does this, 

[01:48:21] Tommy: does this provide any clarity? Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I think, I think what I get back, what, what, what I have already kind of, uh, come to the conclusion about is that, um, that part of, you know, part of. Doing what I wish to do in, in creative terms is not only doing more of what I'm already doing, you know, just continuing to do what I'm already doing, but also to at the same time be present.

[01:48:53] Which means that, like, that I recognize that pure consciousness means that you are kind of across all time. And like there's like, you know, like there's a kind of essence of love and that that finds its place in this, you know, like in what I'm saying. So, yeah, uh, I'll say 

[01:49:21] Toliy: in terms of being present, you know, um, yeah, thank you Mike.

[01:49:31] Sometimes 

[01:49:33] Mike: you uh, you set out to go on a ride, you go to a destination, right? You take a ride, it's about two, three hours one way. But you forget to call ahead and ask, Hey, are you guys open? And you get there, you're like, oh, to us closed. You know? But you had a good time on the way there, you know, and you drive back and you had a good time on the way back too 'cause you were with your friends.

[01:50:00] Yeah. This is the ation. Yeah, that's this podcast. Yes. 

[01:50:03] Toliy: Yeah, that, that, that's a perfect, like, uh, depiction. Depiction. Holy fuck. Yeah. Trying to throw you under the bus, bro. 

[01:50:12] Mike: We had to drive it three hours just to find out the time, culture, business. Yeah.

[01:50:20] Yeah. All 

[01:50:20] Toliy: these gifts. Yeah. Yeah. I I I would prefer if we just burn everything in this room right now. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:50:28] The front ride. Guys, I'll tell you, you one thing, if, if, if Joe is, listen, if, if Joe listened to this podcast, Uhhuh, there'll will be multiple times throughout, throughout his time of listening to it that he'll be trying to remember what drawer he left the gun in. He's gonna be ripping his hair out, right?

[01:50:45] He, he's gonna be from his Baldy where he is like, where 

[01:50:48] Eldar: I 

[01:50:48] Toliy: thought I left it here. 

[01:50:49] Eldar: Where? Where's the pistol? Yeah, guys, you can laugh all you want, but I'm gonna finish with these thoughts. Yes. But know when Totally, when to, uh, before we started the podcast and to, and I told totally like, yo, totally, like Tommy said something and he's willing to have a conversation.

[01:51:04] Tony's like, bro, you gonna fall for the same trick again? And like, I always like to fall the same, for the same trick. Yeah. And I, it's only for one reason, I think. Right. Because. Without really knowing, I don't wanna play the guessing game of not giving the person the opportunity to be able to express themselves.

[01:51:18] Yeah. And make something of a change. 

[01:51:20] Tommy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:51:20] Eldar: Because if there is glimpse for change, if they're trying to do something, they're trying to say something, I want to give 'em that shot. You know what I mean? Because mm-hmm. If there is a door to open, hopefully we have the ability to help 'em open that door. You know, clearly the door is a little bit more shut today.

[01:51:36] Today. Yeah. For now. For now. Than we thought. Than I thought. Yeah. Totally. Clearly said. Yeah. You know, like, this is, this is what it's, yeah. However, uh, I still think that our attempt to be able to remind Tom of certain things that he might forget sometimes is not invaluable. I agree. I think that coming to the same end, um, is a good thing.

[01:51:57] You know what I mean? Because it's a reminder that there's work to be done. Mm-hmm. And that, um, the bullshit that he might be spewing to himself or the things that he might be, uh, delusional about only works on him. 

[01:52:09] Tommy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:52:10] Eldar: Right? Because when you put more people in this room and you're gonna try to balance your equation against them, and they're gonna keep putting the mirror back, right.

[01:52:16] And saying like, Hey, like this doesn't work. Look at yourself. I think that's what happened here. You know, and I think that we serve a very specific purpose for Tom, and I think Tom knows that, you know, uh, we're gonna continue to try to dispel Tom's paranoia, fear, anxiety, whatever the fuck you wanna call perfectionism.

[01:52:36] Mm-hmm. With the way we work, with the way we do. And at times, Tom will peek his head. For, get a grasp of air and he'll enjoy it, and at times he'll go under again. 

[01:52:46] Tommy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:52:46] Eldar: You know what I mean? I don't think it's for us to judge or not accept him for what it is. Uh, right now he's speaking for a little bit of air and that's great and I'll take it, you know, because like I said to me, when he comes and there's his presence and he's trying, it's a good, it's a good, nice, lighthearted thing.

[01:53:01] And we can have fun with him and we can enjoy it. Right? Yeah. And when he goes back in the hall, I mean, well, we all know kind of where he's at. 

[01:53:07] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:53:08] Eldar: You know, um, hopefully he'll find in him to be able to stretch those moments in order to enjoy himself a little bit more than he does. If he doesn't. And it is what it is.

[01:53:18] It's also his choice, right? 

[01:53:19] Tommy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:53:21] Eldar: Right. So, so thank you, Tom. Thanks Tom for being Tom. No, it was a great conversation. Carry on. 

[01:53:29] Toliy: I, I think Micah, he did depict it really well. He 

[01:53:33] Mike: just said it was good. 

[01:53:36] Eldar: Yeah. No, you know what, first, when I was, I was taking your analogy in little terms, I'm like, no, because I know that the person that went, went on the ride did, didn't get what he wanted.

[01:53:45] You know what I mean? But like, then I, I, I realized what you said and yes, we went on this ride with Tom. We, we kind of didn't get what we wanted, but I mean, we got what we wanted. Yeah. We had a good, we got clarity. We had a good time. We did have a good time. So, 

[01:53:58] Toliy: yeah. So, yes. And, and, and sometimes you, you could just be down to take, to take a ride.

[01:54:02] Yeah. 

[01:54:03] Eldar: Yeah. And then, you know, and the nickname that we have for Tom, if anybody's listening and paying attention is Tom is Asian. Yeah. Or Tom is art. I also want to add one, one thing that, oh, the final thought. Thoughts to my final thoughts? Final thoughts? No, no, they're 

[01:54:16] Tommy: not. 

[01:54:17] Eldar: No, you said you're done. No. All right.

[01:54:20] Hey, I'm being nice to you now. Go ahead. Okay. 

[01:54:22] Tommy: Thank you. Thank you. Hit us with it. He has this, uh, emotional support dog with him. 

[01:54:27] Pen. 

[01:54:29] Um, 

[01:54:31] Eldar: I think, I think that, I'm not sure actually who's the emotional supporter, who here. 

[01:54:34] Tommy: I think that the unique thing is that the, the, the, you know, these are, these are obviously things that like, do not destroy a sense of true happiness, I think, for me.

[01:54:53] Um, which things like satisfaction, let's say, um, the, these, um, maybe fears or, or anxiety, like the anxiety or whatever. Well, they'll hold you 

[01:55:04] Eldar: back 

[01:55:04] Tommy: from 

[01:55:05] Eldar: actualization. 

[01:55:06] Tommy: Uh, agreed. Agreed. Yeah. The point is that, you know, creativity, I think that's kind of maybe what I, what I mean, like, you know, creativity is not really what holds me back.

[01:55:20] Uh, like, you know, 

[01:55:23] Toliy: but it is what holds you forward. 

[01:55:26] Tommy: I, I, I, I 

[01:55:27] Toliy: think that like, yeah. I, I think that. That, you 

[01:55:37] Tommy: know, I, I want to be able to, you know, be more open about, uh, you know, kind of like some of, of my worries in terms of these kind of creative ambi, this creative ambition. You know, if there's something like that or if there's something, for example, that I feel, you know, kind of like, you know, it's funny, you, you, you've mentioned to me Elder a couple of times where you said, um, you know, I'm the kind of person, right?

[01:56:09] You said it just like maybe 10, 20 minutes ago you said, you know, I'm the kind of person who, you know, I learn, I work at things and over time, you know, I'm, I'm consistent about it. Right. You remember saying something like that? Me or you? You, 

[01:56:22] Eldar: you said that. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to apply myself for then I be consistent enough to be able to extract little by little you grow.

[01:56:27] Yeah. The fond totally. I think totally 

[01:56:29] Tommy: also said that too. Yeah. Um, and I think that where I fail to be accountable, where I fail to hold myself accountable to this is that I see myself as a kind of like an object in this rather than, you know, so I kind of create a form around it and like I see myself as kind of, um, like not able to, to break the barrier because.

[01:57:03] Like I, I'm not able to like, find in you guys mentors, you know what I mean? Like Yeah. I'm not able to though, though this isn't true all the time. No, we get this. Yeah. But in terms of like, you know, in terms of making films or something like that, you know, um, I think maybe it's a little bit better for, for me to come up with the plan and then kind of like, maybe find how, how I'm like, why I am afraid.

[01:57:34] Right. And be able to find a way through it, like, through some, some other step, right. To be able to say like, look, I'm, I'm not so sure about this and that, and, and not be afraid of the outcome by asking for, like, so it's, it's funny because even I think that you, no one here would oppose, right? Like, as friends, you wouldn't say, you know, Tom, like you, that that thing is, like, you mentioned Phil, like he, that thing is out there, you know, you wanna, you wanna do that?

[01:58:03] Well, it's not here, right? Well, this sit situation isn't necessarily so different, right. Where it's like, I don't think like, you guys would be against me wanting to make movies one day or make films or, or to pursue this. Like, so, so I think about that because, you know, in some way I, I do have to honor myself who I am.

[01:58:28] Right. And I know that sounds wild. But the truth is always going to be the truth that what's happened has happened. Right. And um, yeah, I just find it, I find that kind of interesting. I find it interesting that, you know, I can think outside of, outside of, um, you know, being one of these major players in the game, in, in film or something like that.

[01:58:55] And I could simply say like, Hey guys, um, I have this idea. Right? And, you know, when that time comes and it's time to, to do something about that, you know, I, I actually would feel pretty good about it. That's that. I find that to be very interesting. I find it very, very, very interesting because often I think no one understands me, no one understands my dreams and so on.

[01:59:21] So 

[01:59:22] Eldar: those are my final words. Well, fine. Thank you, Tom. I appreciate that. Yeah. And I would love to add something Uhhuh, but I won't. Okay. I'm just joking. That was good. Thank you, Tom, for sharing. Thanks, Tom. Thank you guys.