184. The Two Paths of Learning: Direct Pain vs. Remembered Pain

How do people truly learn and become receptive to advice?

In this episode, the group delves into the ways people learn through pain—either directly or by remembering past pain. They discuss the common struggle of giving advice and the frustration when the advice is ignored. The conversation explores why people may appear ready for advice but resist implementing it due to attachments, pride, or fear. They emphasize the importance of patience, compassion, and proper timing when offering help. The discussion also touches on the recurring theme of seeing past superficial complaints to identify the core issues and the necessity of allowing people to experience their learning journey. They illustrate these points with personal anecdotes, shedding light on their approach to supporting friends and family through their struggles.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction: The Pain of Learning
• 1:59 The Dilemma of Unsolicited Advice
• 22:07 The Long Game of Learning and Advising
• 34:46 The VIP Treatment for New Employees
• 37:11 Tommy's Commitment Issues
• 51:07 Eldar's Philosophy on Helping Others
• 1:04:23 Learning Through Pain
• 1:14:57 Effective Communication Strategies
• 1:35:13 Final Thoughts and Conclusions

Transcript

[00:00:00] Toliy: On this week's episode, people learn either one through direct pain or two from remembered pain. To me, like there's almost no other way for people to learn or progress, but those are the two things. 

[00:00:13] Eldar: Let life happen. What does that mean? Why is that superseding a friendship? Why does life has to happen to that individual?

[00:00:22] What does that actually mean, and why is it so powerful? 

[00:00:25] Toliy: I'm in pain. This sucks. I wanna improve this. I want to be better. I wanna learn. Well, hey, I've suffered through this. I've experienced the pain through this. Why do we need to have double the pain here?

[00:00:44] Eldar: All right, guys. Longstanding problem that I guess maybe every human being that is, uh, part of a human interaction or communicating with others, developing relationships. Faces. Right? And obviously you wanna introduce this topic, right? Totally. No. No. Okay, cool. 

[00:01:07] Toliy: So how do you know what the topic is? 

[00:01:09] Eldar: What do you mean?

[00:01:09] You dunno what the topic is? You know, this is your longstanding problem with all the people in the world that you've come across. Yeah. What is it? Well, how do people learn, right? And why is it a lot of times that, um, they give off their impression that they're ready to learn. They want to learn, they want to be receptive.

[00:01:29] They want to take your advice, but 

[00:01:34] Toliy: their action proves otherwise. Right? 

[00:01:40] Eldar: Do we have plenty examples? Everyone has examples here, right? Where someone comes to you and says, oh, I'm struggling with this, I'm struggling with that, you know, and you start to unravel some of their problems and you're trying to give them advice.

[00:01:52] Next thing you know, they're not ready to take on your advice. 

[00:01:54] Katherine: Yeah. If 

[00:01:56] Eldar: they're not ready to listen to you. Right. Uh, I don't know. For you, Catherine, uh, or my love, you know, I remember you, you was given, um, advice, trying to give advice to your dad about stuff, for example. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. He comes to you, ask you for suggestions, and then you obviously trying to try your best.

[00:02:13] You invest the time. You invest your energy. Yeah. You become compromised pretty much, you know? Yeah. 'cause you've invested yourself in it, and then he doesn't take the advice. Mm-hmm. And then you become Aggie. 

[00:02:25] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:02:25] Eldar: Right. And you're like, what the fuck? Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Then you become emotionally compromised because 

[00:02:30] Katherine: Right.

[00:02:30] You 

[00:02:30] Eldar: had a horse in a race at that point. Mm-hmm. You know, obviously Totally is always talks about the same thing. And he's been observing a lot of people, um, come for advice. Right. And we have a, a running joke that we had with one, one of our was constituents from, from a while ago. Um. Where he would ask for advice.

[00:02:51] I would tell him the advice. I would be like, okay, this is how you know, you should move. This is what you should say. Right. And then he wouldn't do it. But then when it came to something trivial as like, we're hanging out at a bar, and, you know, maybe it was on his health kick at that moment, he's, he's asking me whether or not he can have a, a beer, a glass of beer, you know?

[00:03:07] Mm-hmm. Something very trivial. Right? Yeah. We're okay with giving up the smallest things when it comes to being obedient. Right. But for the bigger solutions, uh, we're not really ready. 

[00:03:18] Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:18] So I think that the question is how do we actually learn? And what's actually, for people maybe giving advice, what's, what's the proper way of communicating?

[00:03:27] Or what's the proper way of giving advice? When is the right time to actually invest your time, your efforts, uh, to the people and help them out? When are they gonna be ready? Because a lot of times as we continue to digest this topic, me and Totally and everyone else, right, um, we find it that people are not just ready.

[00:03:46] They're not ready yet. They, they have too many attachments, they have too many desires, maybe arrogance. Right. Pride, fears. Fears. Right. All those things are actually holding them away from the actual answer or taking the answer and implementing it in their lives. So what happens, right? Totally. A lot of times then, uh, you kind of have to be hands off and say, you know, what this person is, is exactly where they should be, you know?

[00:04:15] Yeah. And there's a, there's a bigger lesson here at play that needs to be learned before they can accept any type of advice. 

[00:04:22] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:23] Eldar: Right? There's something greater, let's just say. 

[00:04:25] Katherine: Mm-hmm. I, I, I wanna say like, there's like a, a two-sided lesson, right? For the person asking for their advice. Maybe they're there for a reason and they have their lessons to learn from whatever comes from that, right?

[00:04:38] Yeah. But also for the advice giver. 

[00:04:40] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:04:40] Katherine: You know, you have to. Know where you stand with that. You know, like maybe a friend needs your advice on something. Maybe it's a family member, you might get involved or you care. So you, you get compromised with like, the outcome of like them taking your advice or whatever that, let's say you gave them the most coherent advice, right.

[00:05:03] But they, you know, you told them right, they went left. Mm-hmm. And it wasn't like, it wasn't, let's say, like the right choice or it didn't work out for them. Then you, then you have to like almost stand back and then watch like more suffering or, yeah. Just more troubles coming for them. So it's tough because you, you have to know where you stand.

[00:05:22] Like you have to really, you know, kind of let go of expectation and, and, and just kind of like, let life happen, you know? Yeah. 'cause you can't make, you can't make the decision for that person or control their life, or like control how they make their dec their life choices. 

[00:05:38] Eldar: So let's dive deeper in what you just said.

[00:05:40] Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:41] Let life happen. Yeah. What does that mean? What does that mean? Why is that? Why is that superseding a friendship? Right? A a very specific relationship that you have with the people. Mm-hmm. With that person, the advice that you're given is being, you know, kind of dismissed, right? Mm-hmm. Why does life has to happen to that individual?

[00:06:03] What does that actually mean, and why is it so powerful?

[00:06:09] Uh, can I say something? Uh, who's this? Hi Mike. This is Mike. Oh, hey Mike. I'm also, Mike called in. Yeah, Mike called in. Nice. 

[00:06:18] Mike: Uh, I think, I think what you're saying is, uh, 

[00:06:23] Eldar: don't put words in my mouth now. 'cause you're pretty good at that too. I, 

[00:06:26] Mike: I am. 

[00:06:26] Eldar: All right. Good. I'm, 

[00:06:28] Mike: this time I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do it.

[00:06:31] Hopefully. Now what I think you're saying is what I, I think at least is happening mm-hmm. Is that it's not. So much how people learn. It's like probably when people learn mm-hmm. When are people, uh, ready to learn? Uh, and I think this, this is like a major thing where the, the person has to be in a, in the right, like a place that he's open to learn, 

[00:07:01] Eldar: like receptive place, 

[00:07:02] Mike: uh, receptive.

[00:07:03] Yes. And, and that the thing is, I think this is like more like, I don't know, mystic, mystical kind of answer, but there's things that are playing, playing out in the universe, you know, that we as friends, uh, any, any relationship, right? We all have like a relationship with friends, relationships, you know, all kinds, right?

[00:07:27] We don't know what's actually happening in that person's life. And to what extent is actually the truth behind the scenes underneath, like, you know, what people show us and what we see. Hmm. So. There's things that are playing out that are like, you want to call it karma. You want to call it ego pride. You know, the person can agree with you, right?

[00:07:48] But they have their own attachments, their own things that they really feel about it, you know, and the certain amount of suffering, which seems like a common thing occurs, has to occur for that person to be in the right, like, uh, at the right time where he's like, all right, I really had enough. I'm tired of suffering.

[00:08:12] So I think the time is the connection with the suffering that has to be enough times of suffering that's meaningful, where the person is in a position where they're like, all right. And I think that's more like, um. Behind the scenes happening. 

[00:08:32] Eldar: How do we know when is the right time? How do we know that the person had enough suffering and that they're now receptive?

[00:08:40] Mike: Hmm. Um, I think, I think, or I wonder rather, uh, when we are in a position to give, uh, unsolicited advice, right? So we're given the advice, not for ourselves to feel for, for our own reasons. Leave it not for, not for like any other reasons, but to actually hear the person out and give a genuine listen and not to have any ulterior motives.

[00:09:11] Because a lot of times, uh, people have their own motives. They wanna be the helper. They want to be a good friend. What they think. They wanna see this person succeed. They have, we as a helper or as an advice giver. We also have our own attachments. A lot of times 

[00:09:25] Eldar: Wanna be a hero? No, but you ask when's the 

[00:09:28] Toliy: right time to give advice, 

[00:09:29] Eldar: right?

[00:09:29] Yeah, that's right. 

[00:09:30] Mike: Yeah. He's not answering yet. No, 

[00:09:32] Eldar: no. 

[00:09:32] Mike: Yeah, so I think no, the time is when you can actually give unsolicited. When, when you're not, when you're giving, no, I think he's asking unsolicited ear. 

[00:09:42] Toliy: I think elder's asking for the person, right. 

[00:09:47] Mike: The advice giver or the person 

[00:09:48] Toliy: receiving advice. Right.

[00:09:49] I think you, you're asking when's the right time for the person to, when do they 

[00:09:52] Eldar: yell? Like when do they finally Right. Come to that point. And how do you identify that point that it's the right time for them to get advice? That they're ready, that they're ready to get the advice. Obviously, I, you know, I like what you're saying about don't give advice if it's not asked.

[00:10:06] Right. Don't give unsolicited advice because you have your own reasons as to you have a horse in a race here, you know, like Kat's dad. Mm-hmm. You know, she obviously wants him to feel better and, and get better. Right. With his health. Mm-hmm. So she has a horse in a race, right. So she might be attached herself.

[00:10:20] No. What I'm asking for is, um, no, 

[00:10:22] Mike: and that's what I was gonna tie it. Yeah. Ahead. Yeah. I was gonna tie that when you can be an unsolicited like ear. Where you don't have an attachment to this person, to the advice you're giving, you then can actually try, like really pay attention and focus to see what's happening.

[00:10:37] So when you are actually like clear minded, okay, you can actually hear what the person is saying. 'cause a lot of times we don't hear actually what's being said and that's the problem. But the time. But if we start listening, we will actually be able to pick up on that moment when we listen un like a, without a bias with our own, without our own attachment or desires.

[00:10:56] Eldar: Okay. Okay. 

[00:10:58] Mike: It's since theory, I don't know. That's what just kind of No, no, 

[00:11:01] Eldar: I hear you. Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. You're saying that as long as you kind of, uh, finally remove yourself from the situation and able to pay, pay very close attention to what's going on and what's being actually said, you'd know when that person is ready to listen, like you would know.

[00:11:16] Mike: Oh, I think so. I think so, yes. Because you wouldn't, the thing is like, I think most people, we listen when we have them dogs wasn't when we having a conversation with people. A lot of times we're thinking also what's being said, we're processing and we kind of sometimes can go off on a tangent. So when you're given an undivided attention and you're in the moment listening to what's being said, I think it's different.

[00:11:43] Eldar: Mm. What do you think? Yeah, go ahead, Mike. Finish. 

[00:11:49] Mike: Yeah, no, versus when you have your horse in the race. 

[00:11:52] Eldar: Yeah. Um, do you think that's a prerequisite right there, what you just said? 

[00:11:58] Toliy: I don't know if you have to be completely, like, removed from the situation or like, you know, like, like, because with certain people when you have certain relationship with them, it's difficult to co to, to completely, I think be like, you know, off.

[00:12:13] Um, but yeah, overall I think, yeah, not like you, you could still kind of have interest I think in the situation, but not be as attached to like the outcomes. But, um, like. I think still like inside, like you're rooting for, for a particular direction. I think like if that person's honest with themselves, I think like they still internally like wish or like, would like something for that person, you know?

[00:12:41] So I don't think that they can be like completely like, Hey, like I actually don't care one way or another. It literally makes no, no difference to me. Like I don't know if you can really take that kind of, um, side. Um, but yeah. Um, as far as like, well first off, I feel like based on what I've seen, I think people learn, uh, like in two different ways.

[00:13:06] They learn either one through direct pain or two from like remembered pain. So to me, like there's almost no other way for people to learn or progress. But those are the two things. And usually it's actual pain. Like people actually, um. Go through the process and learn through pain. Um, I like, like, I think that that repeats itself over and over again and proves itself over and over again and Okay.

[00:13:36] Um, and, um, maybe if you wise up a little bit, then you kind of can remember from like, then you can go off of like remembered pain, you know? Um, and I think, and then at certain times those decisions just become automated and then maybe you don't even have to remember the pain. Maybe it's just so automatic, the, um, reply to it.

[00:13:57] Um, but when it comes to giving advice to people, like, I don't know if there's really like a right time because it's like, um, the, um, the difficulty in identifying is when it comes to someone, like the actual pain that someone is experiencing versus their vocalized pain are two very different things. And I feel like for a long time I've misinterpret.

[00:14:24] Um, what those two things are. Mm. And like I, I felt like they were very um, can you expand on that and give some examples? Yeah, yeah. I can. This is very important. They're, um, they appear to be sometimes very alike. Um, or they appear to be that the vocalized pain is worse in most cases. 

[00:14:42] Eldar: Wow. 

[00:14:42] Toliy: Than the actual pain to you.

[00:14:44] And Yeah. And, and the reason I think that, that that's true is because when people speak about something that they're like in pain, they basically will take, like, um, like when they talk about it, they'll take a thousand or a million moments and put it into one when talking about it. But the reality is that like all those moments happen over a long period of time.

[00:15:06] So they were much smaller doses of pain over periods of time. So when you vocalize it though, it sounds like all in one, it sounds like a million into 

[00:15:16] Eldar: That's a very good point 

[00:15:17] Toliy: actually into like, um, one and then when, when you hear them, they're like, this person's in the terrible place, like. I've gotta help them, you know, like they're, they're drowning.

[00:15:27] They're about to die. They're drowning. They, they, they need help. And then you start, like you, you put time on your side a couple of days, maybe even not, like, maybe within the same conversation you start telling 'em some things to do and they're like, and then like, they prove to you that like, you know what?

[00:15:42] Eldar: I'm not 

[00:15:42] Toliy: willing to do all that shit. It's not even that bad. You know, when, like before that they were vocalizing this crazy suffering that they're in this, this bad place. You know, like, um, like I was, I was, I was, um, talking to my dad like two days ago and I call him and he is like, oh, everything's bad.

[00:16:01] Like everything is bad. You know? I'm like, everything's bad. What do you mean? I told him though, like, you're not grateful at all. Like, how, how can you say that everything is bad? Yeah, sure may. Maybe some things are bad. 

[00:16:11] Eldar: Yeah, 

[00:16:11] Toliy: right. But probably not even. Yeah. But if they are, like, some things are bad, fine.

[00:16:16] Yeah. And then he just calls you today, he's like, Hey son, how are you doing? You know, how's everything? I'm like, oh, what happened? Like, things not bad anymore. Oh, I told him that. He is like, no, today's a good day for now. And I'm like, well, everything is for now. Just like, it was bad for now. Yeah, right. But you didn't say it like that.

[00:16:31] No, no. You said everything is bad. Yeah, everything's not bad. What are you talking about? Yeah, like, um, you stopped buying this bullshit, right? Yeah. Well, yeah. That, that's for sure. But, um, well, on your dad's side at least. Yeah. So this, this, like, it's, it's, it's sometimes very difficult and, and I feel like the whole world falls into play of this.

[00:16:54] Like, they say like, oh, look like those people are suffering. You know? Like they'll look at a moment and they'll take that moment into. A million, like, like moments into one, but, but it's not, and like if it was really that bad, like helping people get find solutions and improve would be a, like way easier.

[00:17:16] Like, um, uh, if, if like if you need emergency surgery or you're about to die, like you just accept whatever, like is going to be done to you. Right. You're not like mm-hmm. Hey, well, like you don't go to the surgeon and be like saying, Hey, before you try to save my life. 

[00:17:32] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:17:32] Toliy: Tell me what you're gonna do and like, let me see if I'm all right with it.

[00:17:35] Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like, you just get life saving things happen to you. Right. That's it. There, there's no like a list or conversation because you have no choice. 

[00:17:46] Eldar: Yeah. Like you have no 

[00:17:47] Toliy: choice. It's 

[00:17:47] Eldar: go time 

[00:17:48] Toliy: and you're in the hands of a professional who's gonna do it, you know, probably do his best and do what?

[00:17:54] Do, do what Technology. Like. Yeah. And you can't wrap your mind. Can't wrap you. Yeah. Around, don't need to learn about to see if you're okay. What are you talking about? Yeah. Right. Um, when you're, when if, if it's a hundred degrees outside and your AC is broken, you're calling that like, that, that, that AC guy asap.

[00:18:11] Yeah. Do whatever it takes, get it done. Right. It's like the same thing in sales. Like, it's like people oftentimes, like if they have a huge problem, they'll buy, they'll make every meeting, they'll be in the, like, the decisions, like everything is important. Yeah. If it's not really a big problem, then people prove, they're like, ah, they're not gonna show up, not take things seriously.

[00:18:30] Like, they're gonna prove that, like, it, like, it's not really a big deal, so it doesn't matter. There's no urgency. Right. Um, and when people are really in a bad place, like actually there, there is natural urgency that happens, you know, and then they naturally take some advice, even if it's like in the moment or something, right?

[00:18:51] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:18:51] Toliy: Um, like so my, yeah, my, my, my problem is that for like many years, like I, I, I hear people. Vocalize their problems, and I hear them, um, e even at times, like em emotionally say, they're like, say their peace, right? They, they'll, they'll say, what's going on? Like, they'll like say it in particular ways and I'm like, oh, wow.

[00:19:16] Like, okay, like this sounds like someone who's like, you know, ready to take strides, ready to do this. So let me ask you this then. 

[00:19:22] Eldar: Yeah. Are those people just a bad communicators or are we just bad interpreters? 

[00:19:27] Toliy: Uh, I think they're, I, I think they're, um, a little bit of both. I think it's probably both.

[00:19:32] They're probably bad communicators because, uh, well, well actually, well, you not communicated and use the word everything, right? They, they may not be, they may not be bad communicators because that's their perception of what they feel in that moment. Correct. So like when my dad is saying that to him, maybe he's thinking that everything is bad, right?

[00:19:51] Yeah. In the moment or Yeah, in the moment. But like that, that's his moment. So when I'm hearing it, I have to interpret it as to like, okay, what's actually going on here? Is this guy about to jump up in front of a train? 'cause like if everything's bad, like Yeah. You should be on top of Yeah. Yeah. Like, you ready to jump?

[00:20:08] Yeah. Like you have to be in that like, like, like you have to be in that like world, right? Yeah. Where you're like considering that or doing that. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So, um, yeah, like that and, and, and then I think people all, 

[00:20:21] Eldar: but you teach him, but you, the way you challenge him and ask him the question of like, what do you mean by everything?

[00:20:26] Right? You are almost teaching him how to communicate his feelings a little bit better. 

[00:20:29] Toliy: Well, that and because first identify it. Yeah. Then communicate because like it's crazy offensive to say that. Yeah. Like you live in like New Jersey and like a nice suburb town. Yeah. Like you have a job. Yeah. You have a spouse that you know makes four times your salary.

[00:20:46] Caking. Yeah. He's fairly, 

[00:20:48] Katherine: fairly healthy. Mean he's well fed. Dunno. Yeah. There's so many things. Like he's well fed 

[00:20:51] Toliy: of people struggling for health. Of course. Are you kidding me? 

[00:20:54] Katherine: You know, he's got healthy kids, a healthy wife, like Yeah. He, he lives 

[00:20:58] Toliy: on the roof. What? Yeah. Like 

[00:21:00] Katherine: he lives in a nice home. What, what are 

[00:21:01] Toliy: we talking about?

[00:21:02] Everything. Everything is bad like that. That's a crazy insult to like ev Everyone, everyone, especially God like that. Oh. Especially the 

[00:21:10] Katherine: people who are actually struggling out there. I mean, some people are fighting for their life, for example. Well, 

[00:21:14] Toliy: yeah. Like the Harrison's mom, 

[00:21:16] Katherine: you know? 

[00:21:16] Toliy: Yeah. We, we could list out like so many things, but, but I'm saying people are starving.

[00:21:20] Say that is like, like it's you saying that like, I don't know, you have bad kids that are like killing people and doing heroin or something. Or like, yeah. You have like, you know, like, like, I don't even know you're in like a nightmare basically. But what if your 

[00:21:32] Eldar: dad's bar is a little bit higher than everyone else's?

[00:21:36] In what sense? Like, 

[00:21:37] Katherine: that's an interesting question, 

[00:21:39] Eldar: baby. You, you understand what I said, right? 

[00:21:41] Katherine: Yeah, 

[00:21:42] Eldar: yeah. And it, yeah, but that, that mean, come 

[00:21:43] Toliy: on. Like, you know, food. I don't think 

[00:21:46] Katherine: that's the answer. Yeah. I don't think it's, 

[00:21:49] Toliy: I'm just saying his bar is very low, you know, like if he has, like, if he has like a, like good food and like, like, um, premium sports channels, like, which, which, which he doesn't have right now.

[00:22:01] The 

[00:22:01] Katherine: fact that Tolis listing out like premium sports. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. 

[00:22:06] Eldar: Yeah. Okay. So yeah. So, so, so then, so then it lies on us, I guess since we're maybe trying to figure out how to properly advise these people, how to properly read these people that are complaining right? And seeing things for what they are, we almost need to learn how to interpret them properly.

[00:22:20] Toliy: Well, yeah. I, I, I, I think like, um, one, one, just like common line that's been said for like, you know, probably like 200 plus years when people call for customer support. What, what does the, uh, the customer agent say? What, what's the first thing that they typically say? How can I help you? How can I help you?

[00:22:40] Eldar: Yeah, 

[00:22:40] Toliy: right. Um, but when, like, when we give advice to people, it's like we hear what they're saying and we think we know like what, what steps to take or what to do. But we don't clearly know what's in the way. Like we, we don't see, like we're, we're looking at the person and we're seeing like what, what they need to do, but we don't see what invisible, um, like what, what's invisible to us is not, is, is, is, is visible to, to them.

[00:23:10] And we can't give advice because we don't know what's, what, what, what, what these things are. Because we're, we're not in that, we're like, we're in, we're not in the cave. Like with them, I guess in, in that same way. So we don't really know like. What obstacles from like an ego standpoint, an arrogant standpoint, what things are in the way from stopping them from learning?

[00:23:31] Yeah. So I think that like, like one, one of the strategies that that, that like you have is to give people, for example, opportunity to like exhaust their options, right? Yes. And like, I, like, I'm, I'm almost thinking like someone's asking for help. Um, we sh you, you should just be a, like, offer yourself almost as like a, like a vessel to like, Hey, like, let me know how I can help you.

[00:23:52] Let me know what you want me to do. Yeah. And see if we can, that's, let's go and test every theory you have. Yeah. See if we can exhaust like, how you want me to te teach you. Be Yeah. Be, because the way that I want to teach you is not gonna work right now it's, it's most likely not gonna be effective. Yeah.

[00:24:08] Because you have ego and arrogance and pride, attachment, attachment, and all of these things. So why don't you just tell me like, how can I serve you best? 

[00:24:17] Eldar: Mm. 

[00:24:18] Toliy: That's 

[00:24:19] right. How can I help you? You're saying that you just need money right now. Okay. You're just saying that like you need time off. Okay. You know?

[00:24:29] Mm-hmm. You're saying that you want me to, to like point out some things that you're doing wrong. Oh, okay. Like, you can't, like al almost help anybody because, um, it's probably not gonna be effective. That, that, that's like 1, 1, 1 thing I was thinking about, but the other thing was like, the usual thing is just people ask for help at times.

[00:24:50] They don't listen to it and then they continue to experience pain. But maybe like the, that, that's where I was saying where, um, there might not be a time where it's the right time to help somebody 'cause that that time might not exist. Um, that, that, that might not be a time like period. Hmm. So to me it's almost like, like, uh, like a thousand cuts, right.

[00:25:16] Like eventually like, you know, it adds up. Yeah. So like a thousand times or hundreds of times, whatever it takes. Of having conversations and going through things and like, um, are you finally, is this you finally buying in into the long game? Well, yeah, I mean, yeah. Like o ultimately, yeah, it's some like for, for a long time.

[00:25:38] To me it's like, um, there's a difficulty in, in under, in understanding how are things supposed to go versus like, do we just not have something uncovered yet? Like, is is like, is there just a path of like, Hey, this person can't be helped. They just need to suffer and kind of like be in a bad place and like this process might take five years, but like this is the process and this is what it is.

[00:26:03] Like, is that just the reality of things or do we as like helpers or teachers not know proper things to like accelerate that or like that? That's the other side of me is like, do, are we just missing information as to like how to properly go about this? Or does it even matter? Like I is, is it even a thing of like, is learning faster, better, for example, like I, is that factually true, that like learning faster is better?

[00:26:30] Um, mm. The question to, to me, like it always sounds more ideal, like, yeah, I wanna learn as fast as possible, and yeah, software is least as possible. Like that, that to me almost sounds like common sense. But is it supposed to be that way? Like what, what's, what's the right answer here? And like a, after like, wrestling with that?

[00:26:50] Yeah. I've always tried to like, okay, like here what people are saying and then try to find the fastest, like what, in my mind sounds like the fastest way to like, salvation there. Um, but, but you end up attaching yourself to the process. Well, yeah. And, and then hurting yourself. Like not, not working well.

[00:27:04] Where then like, then I'd be put like, then I'm in a position where I'm the bad person, you know, and then I'm like the mean person, you know? Um, so. Yeah. Like, I like 

[00:27:17] Eldar: to get to the point where I've exhausted many options, right? And I've been there for a very long time. And then I become that mean bad person at the end of the, like, at the end of it.

[00:27:27] Now, at the end of the road. Because I know that, like, I have receipts already that a lot of stuff has been done, a lot of things has been talked about. A lot of advice has been given. And then now I can exercise. You trick people. I exercise what dot mean. That trick people. He tricks 

[00:27:43] Toliy: people. 

[00:27:43] Katherine: That is a crazy accusation.

[00:27:45] Everyone is 

[00:27:45] Toliy: like, everyone is like, like, oh, like you're mean. Totally elder. So nice. Yes. That's always happen until, until elder just, uh, un until you realize that like, elder's been peeing, peeing on your back for, for, for, for a year now, you know? 

[00:27:57] Eldar: Yeah. Well that's why we, we give it the premise, right? Where even Harris is like, you know, he puts totally in the bad camp and I'm the good cop, you know, Tony's like, bro, you don't know.

[00:28:05] And I tell him too, you don't know I'm, I'm over here setting up traps. Yeah. To catch your ass. You know, and when I catch your ass, oh, you're done. You're caught. And that's gonna be the biggest hammer. Yes. Yes. Where it totally applies a lot of pain in the beginning to alleviate the pressure that's gonna happen at the end, but a lot of times totally falls flat on his face, and then it has to go my route.

[00:28:26] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:28:27] Eldar: Yeah. Like, you know, I'm trying to, but I'm completely okay with 

[00:28:29] Toliy: it. Hey, like there's construction on this road to not drive here. Yeah. This is a bad, this is like, no, don't go here. Yeah. And these people eventually be like, yo, shut your mouth. Yep. Get out the way. Yes. And live. And live. Lemme go live. Go.

[00:28:41] And I'm over here. Or, or the open arms. Yeah. Hey, come through the slo. There's no, no sinkhole here. You know? Yes. No sinkhole. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's a fucking sinkhole. And then there's a fucking cliff. Yeah. There's a cliff. Yes. 

[00:28:53] Eldar: There's a cliff. And I'm 

[00:28:54] Toliy: over there. And then you, you, you ride down the cliff, and then you're just like, 

[00:28:57] Eldar: yeah.

[00:28:57] And I'm like, totally. Hey. Totally. I told you so, man. Yeah. They 

[00:29:00] Toliy: wanted the cliff, dude. Yeah. 

[00:29:01] Eldar: And you're like, yeah. Yeah. They needed the cliff, you know? 

[00:29:07] Katherine: It's interesting. You guys are standing in like two very different conversations for a very long time. We 

[00:29:11] Toliy: disagreed on this. You, you, you like, promote sinning, like these people, you know, like well, no, I promote them.

[00:29:18] Eldar: I promote them. 

[00:29:20] Toliy: This is what they want, but they're sinners. 

[00:29:22] Eldar: Well, if they need to s sin in order to get it out of their system, that's what they need to do. Get it outta your system. But I also like for, to get it out their system as fast as possible. No, 

[00:29:32] Katherine: but, but, but through that path there's also learning.

[00:29:34] Eldar: Well, that's what I'm saying. Which, what a lot of times in that path, which 

[00:29:37] Katherine: is what people need, I don't even need to learn from all these things. Teach, don't have to 

[00:29:40] Eldar: say anything because life is already in, like the system is already made up. In such a way is happening. Life is gonna be happening. And life and reality Yeah.

[00:29:47] Is undefeated. You could try to, that's true. To try to jump out the roof and like break through, but like there's gravity that's gonna keep bringing you down. Like you, like you're gonna get exhausted, you're gonna get tired. Mm-hmm. And gravity's gonna throw you, throw you down and like, I know this, but the other person doesn't.

[00:30:03] So I'm like, okay, let 'em just figure this out themselves by doing it a hundred times. Mm-hmm. Until they like, oh shit. Yeah, there is gravity. I agree with this guy. You know what I mean? Um, but nonetheless, I do give the answers. I always give the answers. I'm like, look, this is, this is this way and this is that way.

[00:30:20] Your choice. What do you wanna do? A lot of times people type choose the sinning part. Yeah. You know, rightfully so, because I feel them out. Yeah. I take the time to see where they stand and what attachments they have. Yeah. Right. Uh, I mean, I've had plenty with Mike, for example. Mike can attest to this, where, you know, uh, the girls that he was dating or was attracted to, right?

[00:30:41] They had all the red flags in the world. Totally. Iss like, no, Mike, no, she's no good. She's no good, bro. You know, Mike's like, nah, bro, it's love bro. It's love. I'm like, look, totally, you know, he's gotta go and do it, you know? And obviously, you know, like, I'm Mike, go entertain this shit. Go see you through, you know, Mike had to buy all these gifts, all the shit just to get his dick sucked a couple of times.

[00:31:00] And then, you know, oh, you find out, but he gets hurt, you know, and he's like, ah, yeah, that's not, well just because not love 

[00:31:07] Katherine: those red flags are, are so apparent to us as outsiders. Correct. Doesn't mean that they are to the person living through it. Correct. And he had to go what he had to go through. That's right.

[00:31:18] Because of his attachments. To learn from those mistakes. That's right. From those attachments, whatever it was. So. Yeah, that he can come out on the other side and now he knows better. You know, sometimes, like sometimes we need to go through that stuff to learn, you know, 

[00:31:29] Eldar: and then you start learning through what not pain or what Totally.

[00:31:32] You said, but experience. No, the remembrance. Remembrance of it. Yeah. Experience. Yeah. 

[00:31:36] Toliy: El el elders. The, the, uh, waiter in the restaurant that, that, that asks if you want truffles on your, uh, thing. He's, he's down to give it to everybody, but, but Bob doesn't tell you it's, it's extra a hundred bucks. Yes. Yes.

[00:31:47] And then the bill comes to, you're like, oh shit. Yeah. You 

[00:31:50] Katherine: know, I, yeah, I, I, I don't know. I, I don't think I would describe it that way. It's an interesting way, like, he's el el he's almost saying that you're purposely allowing the person. I don't, I don't think it's coming from, I'm the side of the devil.

[00:32:01] Eldar: He's saying, 

[00:32:01] Katherine: no, I don't think it's coming from a bad place. I actually see that as like. That's a good thing. The person, the person has to learn. I'm 

[00:32:08] Toliy: not saying, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I makes you think it's effective. Mean, I mean, you're 

[00:32:11] Katherine: definitely putting like a, a more evil, like a sinister spin on it.

[00:32:14] The way you're saying, oh, I'm joking about it, but oh, you know, he, he wants you to sin or he's the, you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's I think like a negative connotation to something that I think 

[00:32:24] Toliy: like elder it is probably the 

[00:32:25] Katherine: most beneficial for a person El 

[00:32:27] Toliy: like, is willing to give you everything when you're not deserving of it.

[00:32:31] Katherine: Yeah. Well, 

[00:32:33] Toliy: so then the person, I get person then like, but 

[00:32:35] Katherine: he's not doing it because you're not deserving. He's just doing it. No, no, but 

[00:32:39] Toliy: you're not deserving of it. You know, 

[00:32:40] Katherine: in the moment if you're not ready, you're not ready. Yeah. Like, and that's not on him like that. It's not, it's not on the person trying to help when like, like each, each person's development is different, right?

[00:32:50] No, but so they're not ready for it. Usually the process is, 

[00:32:53] Toliy: is almost like an earn your keep type of process. Like you have to prove of yourself type thing where, right? Mm-hmm. Where like, ldar will, will, will first give you every, everything that you want because you have a promise. Of proving yourself, probably knowing that like you don't have the capability like to do that, right?

[00:33:10] Like, 

[00:33:11] Eldar: well, no, I, I think that this is how I think I put it to myself as you were saying that I was reflecting, I was like, wait, what I'm doing is actually, I'm, I'm willing to pay as much money as possible for your attention, but you undivided attention whatever it takes. Because right now you're not listening.

[00:33:30] You don't hear me at all. Yes or no? 

[00:33:32] Yeah. 

[00:33:34] Right. After you got everything, after we did the check boxing for whatever it is that you wanted, you have no more complaints or arguments. Now we're gonna have a real conversation. What is it that you Yes. You 

[00:33:44] Toliy: see? So like for like, like the example in here when we first got this officer, like with, within some time, right?

[00:33:51] He gave Tommy a private office guy who went, got him a rug, got him nice lights, light specific lights. He wanted the desk set up. Yeah. Set him, set him a desk set, set up. Like Tommy wanted specific lights for writing Right. And doing work bulbs. Yeah. And everything. They, they went, they got a carpet together, they 400 carpet.

[00:34:08] He picked it out. Yeah. Right. Tommy picked it up. They set the office. Um, they, they, they, um, they, um, set up the office for him and then he didn't show up. He never came to use it. And then we were, everyone's laughing about it. Like this, this guy's getting catered service to set up a private office for him.

[00:34:26] He doesn't even show up. 

[00:34:28] Eldar: Hmm. 

[00:34:28] Toliy: But yeah. But now you can't make an argument saying that you don't make an argument. Yeah. Yeah. That, that, that I'm saying I'm done with that argument. That's what I'm saying is that who would give somebody, the mo who would give the most unreliable person a, a reserve space telling me.

[00:34:43] Yeah. It, it's like 

[00:34:44] Katherine: he's, yeah, it's not, it's not all people. It's given the 

[00:34:46] Toliy: new, it. It's, it's like, imagine you have a team of, like, you have a company of like 500 people and there's a big parking lot, right. And in the front there's like five VIP spots and his company, new employees get the VIP spots. And, uh, 

[00:35:00] Eldar: usually I least performing, at least performing employee drives the best car in the world.

[00:35:04] Yes, yes. 

[00:35:05] Toliy: Yeah. Well, usually the model's like, no, I understand. Like, you're like a bum and you gotta like work your way up and then Yeah. Prove to me that you prove yourself. You have to pledge. You have to pledge. Pledge. Yeah. Right. Like you, you have to go through all that. Yeah. That, that's a process. It's usually like, you get kind of told, told that you're like a piece of shit and like a nobody first for you then to maybe either prove others wrong or like do something to then be a, somebody to then get some of those things.

[00:35:33] Mm-hmm. But yeah, like, uh, sorry. Um, like his, his, like, his, his strategies. Opposite where like he, he puts you in a position where you, you bear responsibility. And most people in like positions of nothing usually are not ones that bear responsibility. So now, like, I don't wanna have an argument, you have responsibility, which means that like you now are in charge of something or you own something.

[00:35:57] But in a lot of cases, like these people are not capable of doing this. But now, but now there can also be in the process, there could be no, like, you, you can't like, like say that like, hey, like this didn't work out because of you. Like mm-hmm. You, you own it now, and now you take on the responsibility where, uh, and, and like that, that's where I'm saying where it's almost like a trick like Tom's down to go get that carpet down to go pick out those lights mm-hmm.

[00:36:22] Down to go do all that. And then he doesn't show up like Tom. But Tom now 

[00:36:27] Eldar: is not allowed to talk about writing a book and he needs private space in order to do it. Yes. If that conversation is, it's done. Yeah. You understand? And I'm ready to pay whatever it takes in order for you to stop complaining. Yeah.

[00:36:39] You know why? Because I want you, ultimately, my whole thing is what, we gotta have fun. We gotta enjoy this thing called life. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And, and we cannot be not accountable, like totally saying, we have to know that we have to be accountable for our own actions and our own complaints and everything else.

[00:36:56] So I'm ready to, you know, make sure that your life is so good. So then you don't have the choice in the matter, but actually look within yourself and say, you know what? Yeah. It's up to me. I am empowered. I am ready to do shit. I'm ready to fuck up this world. And actually go and have fun out there. 

[00:37:09] Toliy: Yeah.

[00:37:10] Like when he, because you don't have an argument. Yeah. When, when he's setting up that office, like, I don't think in like, obviously like inside of himself that he's thinking like, oh yeah, Tom's gonna be here every day. He knows who Tom is. He knows that like, this is not like a commitment or like, he's not like he, he, he's not that person, you know?

[00:37:27] So that's what I'm saying, where it's like, it's like, like a trick in like a way where like, like. No one believes in that person, but El does, like El Elder will show you like the, I I I like to entertain that bullshit. Yeah. Yes, yes. And I'll take, I'll take face value knows is bullshit. I'll take you for 

[00:37:45] Eldar: face value.

[00:37:46] Yeah. Come lie to me. No problem. You telling me that you're gonna be committed in that office. No problem. Let's test that theory. Yeah. Yeah. I think, and then you give me the right. For later to pull out the receipt and said, no bullshitter 

[00:37:57] Toliy: mo Most people would be like, Tom, what are you ta You're not getting no private space.

[00:38:01] Like Yeah, you, you don't show up. You're not that guy. I caught Chase common here. I think 

[00:38:05] Katherine: we're actually really lucky, right? To, to have a person, like, first of all, I feel like it's rare to have like an LD doing this for people or for us in general. Well, there's no one that does that. Like no one does this.

[00:38:16] Yeah, no one. But this is, this is, this is a way to cut to the chase. Cut to the chase. You know, like I'm pretty sure that in the moment as Tommy's selecting a lamp and then selecting a carpet and then feeling like, oh wow, like this room is really coming along. Yeah, I can envision, I can visualize myself.

[00:38:32] Yeah, a hundred percent writing in there and working on my memoir and how all these things, how can I invest some money and some time as a friend 

[00:38:37] Toliy: into that. Kat, today, still, now, Tom slipped he to, I, I, I don't know if Tom brought to Orel there, got the. Tom has slippers. Oh yes. How slippers Oh yeah. In 

[00:38:47] Eldar: that office.

[00:38:48] And now my own, my only, my only, um, what's the requirement was that every time he comes in into that office, he has to wear the slippers so you could feel actually comfortable. That's what he wanted. There's how slippers 

[00:38:59] Toliy: in that office that are not used. 

[00:39:01] Katherine: I get it. But I think that by, by him doing what he's doing.

[00:39:07] Is inevitably cutting to the chase, raising awareness because it, it all led to, to, for, you know, maybe we took to for Tommy to see that like, oh shoot, you know, I thought I was ready for all of this and writing this. Maybe I'm not, 

[00:39:19] Toliy: yeah, but the person, maybe I'm not ready for this 

[00:39:20] Katherine: commitment, you know, 

[00:39:21] Toliy: but the person doesn't know that.

[00:39:23] When this is happening? 

[00:39:24] Katherine: No, of course not. Well, the thing is that Tony, 

[00:39:26] Toliy: try to warn these people too. I, I, 

[00:39:27] Katherine: I'm pretty sure that Tommy, Tommy didn't go along with all this planning of this office knowing that he was never gonna show up. Like I'm pretty sure that he was committed, excited. That's I was committed, was saying.

[00:39:39] Yeah. You know, I think that this in turn like allowed him to see that like, oh shoot, like I wasn't ready or, you know, whatever was going on, but like it allowed him to see that, you know? 

[00:39:48] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:39:49] Katherine: Uh, no matter what I, I think it's like a step in the right direction for the person that needs to learn. Yeah. El Elder will egg you 

[00:39:54] Toliy: on onto your nonsense.

[00:39:55] Yes. Yeah. I love this. Yes. This is, I love, yeah. No, 

[00:39:59] Katherine: I think it's a way of helping ultimately. Yeah. 

[00:40:01] Eldar: I love this. Love It cuts to the chase, you know? Yeah. I'm still playing that same game with Tommy. Tommy, if you're listening, I'm still playing that game with you. Oh, excuse me. Tommy just got a brand new computer.

[00:40:11] A be I iMac 

[00:40:12] Katherine: like what? Here at the office? Yeah, it's 

[00:40:13] Toliy: right there. Look at the Mac Mini. 

[00:40:16] Katherine: Why? Like for what? That was 

[00:40:18] Toliy: a good question. Yeah. Why? Yeah, because he's consistent with editing. Uh, Harris is the hook. He comes every day. Yeah. 

[00:40:24] Katherine: Oh my gosh. And he, 

[00:40:25] Toliy: he needed a better computer to edit videos. He needed a better computer to edit, to be on schedule to, no, he needed a better computer to, to edit the videos that he doesn't edit.

[00:40:37] Katherine: I hope it's like secondhand or something. I hope you didn't go to the Apple store and put all this money brand. What 

[00:40:41] Toliy: do you mean brand new? I saw, I, I saw it on the 

[00:40:43] Eldar: plastic. It's top of the line shit. So 

[00:40:45] Katherine: what happens if to, I mean, if Tommy doesn't, like 

[00:40:48] Eldar: what do you mean? Like, you have to understand we have to get a person to the point where they're receptive.

[00:40:52] Katherine: Oh man. 

[00:40:53] Toliy: Others' willing to go to the, to, to, to, to like the, uh, the, the, the edge of eternity. Expensive stuff. Yeah. 

[00:40:59] Eldar: What do you mean? I, I, yeah. Because then that's the only time when people are gonna start to listen and pay attention. I'm willing to pay for that. To have receptive individuals. Dennis calls it ego driven.

[00:41:12] Driven driven. Charity. 

[00:41:14] Toliy: Charity, yeah. That he's playing with people at the, at their expense. At their expense. 

[00:41:20] Katherine: Yeah. No, I, I don't, I I don't think you can call it that one. People are coming to you for advice or help. I'm not. I'm not dragging. So someone's raising their hand Yes. And saying, Hey, Eldar. Correct.

[00:41:30] Can you help me? Or can you gimme advice like that automatically, like Tom's been talking about that if, if actually feel that way, then, then you're not allowed to come to Ldar for help. 

[00:41:40] Eldar: Yeah. Uh, or I don't wanna hear it. I don't wanna hear no complaints. 

[00:41:44] Katherine: Yeah, no. Like what else is 

[00:41:45] Eldar: the problem? You want something else?

[00:41:46] No problem. You go to someone for advice 

[00:41:48] Katherine: because you esteem them, because you expect their, their decisionmaking. But the thing is 

[00:41:52] Eldar: they don't in that moment. Yeah. They never do. They're very disrespectful. Yeah. No part, everything that they 

[00:41:56] Toliy: say that, how they say I, that part, no, I get it. Just to even go pick out the carpet, get the le like the lighting, and do all like, participate in all that.

[00:42:03] Yeah. Is crazy disrespectful because. Like, you're not like Heather, like, I appreciate you offering to do this, but like Yeah. You know, like, I'm full of shit. Our room is enough. I'm, I'm not. No, no. Not even that. Like, I'm full of shit. I don't come in every day. I don't really need a private writing space.

[00:42:19] That's like, that's not happening. It's not 

[00:42:20] Katherine: humble yet. That's the 

[00:42:21] Toliy: respectful thing to do when someone offers you what, what, what EL is offering you. Mm. But to go see, pick out the carpet, get the lights, set everything up, get the slippers, do everything, and not show up. Are you kidding me? No. What's going on?

[00:42:36] Did 

[00:42:36] Katherine: he request the mini, the Mac mini? 

[00:42:38] Eldar: No. So how, how that came about was that, uh, when he started editing the videos and he was pretty consistent in the beginning. Obviously he was coming in and we were, holy shit, this is, he's showing some character, like I was already in my head because I know he was made complaints before.

[00:42:52] I heard those complaints. Yeah. And I'm like, you knew it was coming. I bought it months ago, months ago as a thing where I was like, I'm gonna give it to him as a surprise for being consistent. But I never got there because he dropped off and he left. Yeah. So he stopped doing it, you know, stopped editing the videos and I'm like, damn, now I have this fucking, so 

[00:43:15] Katherine: wait, he never got a chance to use this new computer?

[00:43:18] Eldar: No, no, no, no. Well, I'm telling you how we got to giving it to him, actually. Oh, 

[00:43:21] Katherine: okay. You know? Yeah. 

[00:43:21] Eldar: And, 

[00:43:22] Toliy: and, uh, I'll, I'll, uh, I'll throw another, uh, curve ball at you, Kat. Um, this was discovered right before we were leaving on vacation. Oh, yes. Right. That's the, and then Tom messages elder and say, hell, there, is it okay if I use the Mac Mini at home while, while you guys are gone?

[00:43:38] This is like, and he gave it to him. He he showed it to him like the day before. The day before, yeah. Right. Yeah, the day before. So, yes, I showed it to him because, yeah. Listen, 

[00:43:46] Eldar: let me get to the story and then you can finish it. Yeah. I bought it. I had it, and I'm like, if he can con continue doing it right, I'm gonna give it to him.

[00:43:53] I think there's gonna be like, I'm was trying to time it as to when he wasn't. Nowhere near consistent enough for me to give it to him yet. Yeah. But like, if you put in like two, three months or whatever, I'll like, yo, here's a good computer. Enjoy yourself and like, really kill the shit because you're doing so well.

[00:44:08] That was my intent. Right. He drops off way before that. Okay. He drops off and I'm like, so he He 

[00:44:16] Katherine: surprised you? Yeah, he surprised me. And you're like 10 steps ahead. Yeah. '

[00:44:19] Eldar: cause I was kind of trying to be nice or whatever, you know? I was trying to encourage the kid and I'm like, damn, now I have this thing laying here for months.

[00:44:27] It sounds like you have a soft spot for Tom. Does Thomas our You do. He does. Wow. 

[00:44:31] Katherine: Because I just feel like you, you, you, you definitely give him a lot more leeway than you would like anybody else. Thomas 

[00:44:37] Toliy: Tom is like that, that like Persian rug that you're not willing to throw away. Totally. You know, it's like, it's like you, you like that rug?

[00:44:43] Yeah. It's probably a little dusty and dirty, but, but you're not willing to part ways. Yes. Like, it's, it's your rug forever. Yeah. The, the, 

[00:44:50] Katherine: the building of this office space that was never used by Tommy. That sounds like fool me once. Shame on you, but fool me twice. Shame on me. No, but you know how many times we were to play this game?

[00:44:59] I know, I understand that. But like this, that, that was, you're dragging it, you know? No. 

[00:45:05] Eldar: So the laptop, I mean the, the Mac Minis now is in my desk for a long time, you know, I'm like, damn, you know, whatever. And I wasn't gonna bring anything up, you know, and I, I thought Tom already quit. He's like, he's done already with editing videos and stuff, so I'm like, ah, whatever.

[00:45:20] I'm not even gonna mention it, you know? And then Tom had this little thing, little epiphany where like, um. He came back and said, yeah, I wanna get back into it. You know, like, I wanna get serious about it. Uh, and then now I'm trolling him. I'm like, Tom, you're not even that serious. You know what I mean? Like, you didn't show any character before.

[00:45:36] I even wanted to like, promote you and give you like a gift or whatever, you know, like get you a better equipment and stuff, you know, because he's always complaining about stuff. He's a, I don't have this, I don't have that. You know, for the record, Tom needs a Ferrari to drive around the block Yes. To get from.

[00:45:51] Yes. I put it back in the driveway to put it back. Yeah. Yes. That's what, that's how Tom is, right? So. I'm like, bro, I even like, you know, I was gonna set you up and everything. Get you this, you know, I have this Mack Mini or whatever, you know. He's like, what? You got a Mack Mini for me? I'm like, yeah, I wanted you to show some character, you know, but now I can't even give it to you because you're not serious about this shit.

[00:46:10] He's like, fuck. You know? Like, he is like, oh, damn. You know? So now his gears are turning, you know, not like I put the, a fire up under his ass. You know? When, when, when, you know, there's, this was the day before that there's 

[00:46:21] Toliy: Santa's gifts under the Christmas tree. Like Yeah. You start behaving. Yeah. Yeah. You start behaving, you know, you know, 

[00:46:26] Eldar: so I'm like, I, I mentioned this, and this was the day before we went into Greece, you know, and that's when totally picks up the story.

[00:46:35] Toliy: Yeah. And then we're, we're about to leave and like, no, no. Like decisions have been made on, on like, on anything. It's not like Tom was coming in consistently, like mm-hmm. Whatever. But Elder flashed like this new gift. Yeah. And then he, he, he took out the drawer in hi his desk. And then Tom asked Elder, he was like, yeah, Tony 

[00:46:51] Eldar: was there checking out the specs and shit.

[00:46:53] You know, I, 

[00:46:53] Toliy: I, I was trolling. I was like, yo, maybe I should take it for myself. You know, like, yeah. Like, uh, like, like that. Um, so then Tom asked El, he, he's like, Hey, like, while you guys are gone, can I use the Mac Mini at home? He brought the M mini at home, and I'm gonna, and I'm gonna throw You said 

[00:47:08] Katherine: yes to that?

[00:47:09] Toliy: Well, 

[00:47:09] Eldar: no, we, no. I said, no. We're gonna have an agreement though. Yes. A certain amount of videos that you have to put out Yes. While we are on vacation and you were doing this because it's gonna be like two weeks. Right? He's like, yeah, I'm down. I'm doing it. You know? 

[00:47:22] Toliy: Yes. Now, before we get into how many, like we, we talked about him making like editing, I think it was three videos, right?

[00:47:28] Yes. Something like that. Three videos, right. Um, which, just, just for the record, if you were to edit them, how long would it take you? Couple hours each. Couple hours each. Okay. So let, let, or, I mean, I 

[00:47:38] Eldar: really want to like do a good job. Yeah, yeah. Let, 

[00:47:41] Toliy: let's say definitely no more than 10 hours of work, right?

[00:47:43] No, probably not. Over a two week span. Yeah. No, right. Two weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Over a two week. And the 

[00:47:48] Eldar: thing is, when you get into it, you could get into it, you could crank out crazy amounts because you are in the flow, because, 

[00:47:53] yeah. Because you're 

[00:47:53] also enjoying this shit, because 

[00:47:55] Toliy: it's funny. 

[00:47:55] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:56] Toliy: Yeah. So then he gets that and has just like a bonus just for the, for the viewers.

[00:48:01] Yeah. He, he then messages, he, he then ask, he is like. Can I also use a cyber truck while you're gone?

[00:48:11] Eldar: And I'm like, Tom, now you're pushing it. Yeah. You know, so I agreed to the, giving him the, the Mack Mini. Yeah. You know, are you 

[00:48:16] Katherine: sure You didn't say yes to the, to the, to, to driving the car? 

[00:48:19] Eldar: No, but I'm gonna fast forward. Yeah. Because to me 

[00:48:21] Katherine: it sounds like you No, no, no. But he, no, no. But he 

[00:48:23] Eldar: came from a different door.

[00:48:24] Yes. He came from a different door. Yes. He guys, three days or four days before he goes, Hey bro, don't you guys need a ride from the airport? I'm like, yeah. Oh, I remembered. Yes. And he goes, he goes, well, uh, my brother's using my car, so can I pick up the cyber truck? I'm like, all fine. So you can do it. So got, so he had it for three days or whatever.

[00:48:41] Toliy: Three days. Yeah. Like the last few days. Yeah. So he got the cyber truck and he got to take the Mack mini home, 

[00:48:46] Eldar: and he didn't do any videos and 

[00:48:47] Toliy: he, he produced zero videos. Kat? Zero. Yeah. Zero. 

[00:48:52] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:48:53] Katherine: Damn, 

[00:48:54] Eldar: that's Tom. Damn. But Tom is ours. So like, for anyone who's listening is, I mean, are you justifying 

[00:49:00] Katherine: it? Or, or like, well, no, what, what's, because you said, you said, but Tom is ours.

[00:49:05] So like, I think that there, what does that mean? Think you're justifying I think Exactly. That's a very 

[00:49:08] Eldar: good question. And maybe only Tony could take a, like a good shot at this, what that means, but he's still be off. 

[00:49:13] Toliy: Yeah. I would say in elder's world, Tom is like a, uh, a, uh, he can't do no wrong. Like, yeah, he's, he's, he's like a, a, a one foot size doll with like a turtleneck that he could pet, you know?

[00:49:23] And like he, he's his like, you know what I'm talking about? Or No, no, but when, when you envision Thomas, right? Mike, what the fuck? Your Mike woke up. Fuck. When you envision is yours. He, he, he, he's wearing a turtleneck, right? He is, yes. Yes. Okay. And he's fluffy. Yes. No, it's a, 

[00:49:37] Mike: it's a 

[00:49:38] Toliy: com. 

[00:49:38] Mike: He's a fluff. Sweating commitment.

[00:49:40] And sickness earn health. Yes. That's what it's Kai. It's like a and sickness earn health commitment to Tommy. 

[00:49:45] Eldar: Yeah. No, Mike is right. You know, Mike is actually closer to that. Yeah, I 

[00:49:48] Toliy: was making a joke. 

[00:49:49] Eldar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Thomas hours. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, and don't think that I don't hit him over the head with a hammer either.

[00:49:56] But you can't leave 

[00:49:57] Toliy: Tom outside when it's 

[00:49:58] Eldar: raining. Like Yeah. You can't. Yeah. 

[00:50:00] Toliy: You'll have to bring in him in, you have, you have to bring in him in, come here Sparky. 

[00:50:03] Eldar: You know? Yes. 

[00:50:04] Toliy: Yeah, yeah. Like Tom, Tom's not built to just get like mm-hmm. Dirty and like, like, you know. No, no, no. Outside. No. Yeah. 

[00:50:12] Eldar: I think that guys, I love 

[00:50:14] Katherine: Tom.

[00:50:14] Eldar: I do. Tom is ours, despite the fact that he's, I know that he's Aggie and he's inconsistent and all this other stars know, but, but Tom does not know that he's ours yet, and that we are his, you know what I mean? Like, he doesn't know that he has it in glimpses Yeah. In very short glimpses. He's not 

[00:50:30] Toliy: willing to like, uh, he's 

[00:50:31] Eldar: not committing Yeah.

[00:50:32] To like, Hey, commit. Yeah. Like, 

[00:50:34] Katherine: yeah. 

[00:50:35] Eldar: But I think that Tom will actually actualize if he did commit, you know what I mean? And I think that he could finally root himself of some of the, you know what I mean, some of the problems that he's facing mentally, you know, but it's a, it's, it's gonna be a long journey for him.

[00:50:50] And I'm, I'm here for it. So, Tom, if you imagine, if you want me to come up with another office, lemme know. Can you 

[00:50:55] Toliy: imagine? Tom goes his family, Hey, like, uh, I've, uh, signed over the paperwork to, to myself, to someone else, guys. So, uh, yeah. I'm adopted. Yeah. 

[00:51:04] Mike: Well, I wanted to, uh, I was listening to you guys and I wanted to add mm-hmm.

[00:51:07] To say I think it's important, and I think you do that very well, is it's important when somebody comes to ask you for help to identify what they're actually asking for. Because I think a lot of times, um, that's what totally said Mike. 

[00:51:23] Eldar: Mike, yeah. Totally said that. He said, Hey, like, how can I help? Like, how can I actually help?

[00:51:28] Or what can I actually do to really pay attention to that question? Yeah, 

[00:51:31] Mike: yeah. 

[00:51:32] Eldar: To really find out what do you want from me's 

[00:51:33] Mike: really to find out. Yeah. Yeah. But, but the thing is, a lot of times we, if you come to me, right? And for example, you start telling me, yo, my shoulder hurts, right? Mm-hmm. And I'm over here giving you advice for shoulder pain, but really your, your knee hurts.

[00:51:49] I'm giving you advice on the wrong thing. 

[00:51:50] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:51:51] Mike: Like the knee is much worse than the shoulder, and that's kind of like a, like a, like a very simple reference, but a lot of the times the person, he's like, nah, bro, I still want to keep running amuck, but there's some pain. But I still like, yeah. So a lot of times the help is in the moment they feel bad, but ultimately they're not ready to part ways with that behavior or whatever you want to call it, that's causing them this pain.

[00:52:21] Eldar: Yeah. And I think you're right about, but it just want some kind of temporary Yes. I think that you're right about that. I think that attachment of, uh, is much stronger than we think or evaluate to be Yes. In the moment, right? Yeah. Um, and that's why those people are not able to maybe take advice or let go look for that moment.

[00:52:38] But that's why I like, like I said, I like to get into the, into the whole, like, I'll take your fa, I'll take your, whatever argument you have, I'll take you for face value and I'll go on this trip with you. You know, let's go test this theory together. I think super necessary. Yeah. I don't, it's super necessary.

[00:52:50] I don't see how any other thing can work better be it more efficient and to the point, you know what I mean? Um, yeah. I mean, it's obviously costly and I'm, obviously, I'm, I'm thankful that I have that ability to be able to test some of these theories, uh, and be able to throw money at them, right? Mm-hmm. Um, in order to come to, to find truth.

[00:53:16] You know, I think that truth is probably invaluable, you know, when it comes to truth, you know, intrinsically, right? So it costs any type of money. Sometimes you have to throw that in there. 

[00:53:26] Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:27] Yeah. So, yeah. Thank you baby, for bringing me this unbranded beer, 

[00:53:32] Mike: but I think it's, uh, you got it. It's a lot. I guess maybe it's not a genuine kind of cry for help, like, uh.

[00:53:40] You may see that his kneecap is like, you know, completely broken, but he is saying, oh, my shoulder, I just tweaked it a little bit. We're like, yo, you got a fire in your knee? What are you talking about? The shoulder. But you gotta say, Hey, you told me you got a shoulder. Well, I'll give you the shoulder medicine, you know, fuck the knee.

[00:53:56] And I think, yeah, like, uh, you know, I think that's, that helps first of all to build a rapport, but it also helps the person to kind of go out there on the field with that broken knee and kind of be like, realize like, oh, I actually have this broken, wherever it is. And knee is like a reference to your, you know, some kind of like thing you guess you're struggling with, but, 

[00:54:18] Eldar: well, that's why that like, I really like that song.

[00:54:21] Why are we Fighting for the Leaves when the strength is in the roots? Yeah. And a lot of times, I mean, that's the answer right there for you. Right? You might have a desire, you might have an attachment. Yes. Your ego might be on the way. That is why you're fighting for the leaves. The 

[00:54:35] Toliy: ignorant person's always fighting for the for, for the wrong things, you know?

[00:54:39] Because 

[00:54:39] Eldar: they don't know any better. They don't know any better. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. So, yeah. So as, as individuals who maybe are dabbling in philosophy and maybe find this, these insights on how human psychology and everything else, are we better now equipped in order to give advice or help people to, um, get to the point faster?

[00:55:09] Yeah. I mean, based on what we discussed. I think have, have you, have you changed the way you've been engaging, like to some of your friends on your side, Mike, you know, uh mm-hmm. You know, so I'm not gonna mention their names right now, but you know mm-hmm. That your interactions with them, especially when they come for you to you for advice.

[00:55:28] Mike: Yeah. I, uh, I, I try to like, you know, I mean, I try to stay away from making statements 

[00:55:36] Eldar: and ask more questions 

[00:55:37] Mike: and ask more questions, you know? Um, because I don't wanna be the, like the given unsolicited advice. You, you know, uh, because I learned how, how, like, uh, negative that is. 

[00:55:52] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:55:53] Mike: You know, you always end up being the bad guy for no reason.

[00:55:57] And yeah, I tried to, I tried to. Okay. You know, and I also became probably less, less, uh, frustrated. I think I used to be more frustrated when these kind of things used to happen. Okay. I didn't like them. 

[00:56:08] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:56:09] Mike: But yeah, now I, I feel, uh, 

[00:56:13] Eldar: a lot more empowered. 

[00:56:15] Mike: A lot more empowered. Yeah. Because I also like, like we, you know, I do like firmly believe that there's stuff that's playing out that's like in God's hands or karma's hands, or like universe's hand, whatever you wanna call it.

[00:56:30] Label it. 

[00:56:30] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:56:31] Mike: There's stuff playing out that I'm not, like, uh, I'm not qualified to, to, you know, 

[00:56:38] Eldar: to stand in between, 

[00:56:40] Mike: in between or to make a decision on the matter to say like, oh no, this person doesn't deserve to suffer anymore. Like, I gotta help him 

[00:56:47] Eldar: Mm. 

[00:56:48] Mike: To solve his big problem. Even though he is telling me about a small problem, I, I can't do that.

[00:56:53] That's like, it's like, to me, it's like you, I don't wanna play God because that's arrogant, 

[00:57:00] Toliy: you know? Okay. 

[00:57:01] Mike: So the unsolicited one, you kind of like do the right thing by yourself and by that person. 

[00:57:08] Toliy: 1, 1, 1 thing I was just thinking about is that like, um, like you could be helping somebody, but not really.

[00:57:18] Like, like if, if you have an on ongoing, like a relationship with somebody and like, you know, they're asking for advice or like different things, like, like you, you could be just,

[00:57:35] just helping them in the way that they kind of want to be helped. Right. But I, I, I also noticed a, uh, strategy, which has definitely been effective on me, but, um, like there's, there's times where, um, I feel that like, you're not telling me something, you know? Hmm. Because you may feel that like, like, I don't know, like you either not ready for this or like, you're not serious about this, right?

[00:58:04] Mm-hmm. And what it does over time, especially when I continue to suffer over time, like it makes me like relentlessly curious about it. Oh. You know, that's interesting. And it'll lead me to like asking a crazy amount of questions. 'cause I know that you're withholding information from me and I wanna know what it is, like really bad.

[00:58:22] Yeah. You know? Um, and I feel that like, by you not telling me it means that like I'm not almost proving myself that I'm worthy to be told it, you know? Oh, wow. So then, um, as I suffer through whatever it is, like I really wanna find out. So. Okay. Um, yeah, it makes me crazy. Like, wanna find out. 

[00:58:45] Mike: Curious about your, about, about what?

[00:58:48] Why the person's not telling you? 

[00:58:50] Toliy: Yeah. Like whatever, uh, info, like whatever is being like, um, held back because like. The person that's not telling me is feeling that I'm either, they're not like, ready for the advice or not like, serious, you know? And well, like, someone's not like taking you seriously, for example, or someone's like not telling you something or someone's telling you like, Hey, you're not ready, you know?

[00:59:12] Mm-hmm. Like inside you get a particular type, like of, of feeling where it's like, oh, 

[00:59:17] Mike: okay. That's what you mean. I understand. 

[00:59:19] Toliy: Well, yeah, like that. But, but there's different forms of that. Like there, there's forms where like, you could be told like, Hey, you're not ready for this. And when you feel that, it's like, mm-hmm.

[00:59:27] You start examining like, what does that mean? Like, why is this person saying this? You know? Mm-hmm. Um, or they could just, like, there, there's times where I've, where where, um, like I, I can feel that like someone's not telling me something, you know? Mm-hmm. Or they're not like, um, 

[00:59:43] Mike: I think me and you had this a lot of times where you, uh, you felt like I was withholding information from you when we're having a conversation and you didn't get the full story.

[00:59:52] So I know, I think I know what you're talking about. 

[00:59:56] Toliy: Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, yeah, it's like in a bunch of different scenarios and, and there's different, like, there's like smaller and like a larger forms of this where it's, where it's like some, like the, like the more blunt form or like the, like, like the, the more extreme form.

[01:00:12] Someone's like, Hey, like, the reality is that like, you're not ready to like learn yet you need to keep suffering. 

[01:00:17] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:00:18] Toliy: Like, there, there, there's different ways that you could take that you could, you could take that as like, hey, the, like whoever's telling you that is a moron, you know, like, what, what do they know?

[01:00:27] You know? Mm-hmm. Or you could really start examining and saying like, why are they saying this? Like, how could they say that I'm not 

[01:00:36] ready for this? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, like, uh, 

[01:00:44] Mike: is like, yeah. I mean, it's kind of also like, is that kind of calling out like a, your ego a little bit when somebody says, oh, you're not ready for this.

[01:00:53] Well, 

[01:00:53] Toliy: yeah, it's definitely calling out your ego, but then you need to figure out like, why is this hurting your ego? Because you feel that like you're ready for something, I guess, that you're actually like by someone who actually knows what you're talking about is deeming that you're not, and then, then it's up to you, I think, to figure out if, if you'd like, of course, like why is this happening?

[01:01:12] Why am I not being taken seriously? Mm-hmm. Why am I being treated this kind of way? Why the mm-hmm. Like, why do these people have these kind of opinion on me? Mm-hmm. And then you can start asking some questions and figuring it out. And then like, um, I definitely think that it can help you like realize or understand some, some things that you didn't before because your, your ego wasn't like, uh, letting you, you know, and the person's kind of like mm-hmm.

[01:01:37] Like, you, you No, no one likes to be felt like they're being, uh, like a gate kept. Sure. You know? 

[01:01:43] Yeah. 

[01:01:43] Um, yeah. You know? Um, sure. Once someone has that kind of feeling, they, they, they, they want the key now they, they want the keto mm-hmm. In the gate and figure out what, what was not being told. So, um, yeah, I agree.

[01:01:59] So, so yeah, like, I, I definitely have, have this where, where I have this like, extreme curiosity to figure out what's actually going on. 

[01:02:08] Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But you like when a person is like, feel like they're messing out on something, is that like a, you think it's a genuine, or it's more because the person's being attacked and they actually like, and or does it matter?

[01:02:23] Toliy: Um, well it depends on the, um, situation.

[01:02:28] Okay. 

[01:02:28] Mike: I don't have like an example of like that, but I just wonder if Yeah, like there, there's times that could be, if you wanna find out Yeah. Like there, there's times that could be 

[01:02:37] Toliy: talking to elder and um mm-hmm. Maybe it was because like I had a pretty strong take on something. Like by me having that strong take.

[01:02:47] Maybe it shows him that like, okay, well he feels pretty strongly about this, so now I need to let this play out. And mm-hmm. When I feel like I've gotten to that kind of place, I would rather examine, like stop, examine it and then, and then, yeah. No, and then and, and then kind of like reverse my feelings and be like, no, I'm actually not that person.

[01:03:05] I want to be open, open-minded and I want like, to understand the truth. Like, I wanna do this. And then I'll have to like prove to him and pry at him to kind of get like, get that information out and, and like this. Yeah. This happens pretty, pretty frequently I would say like, uh, between us. 

[01:03:22] Mike: Between you and elder.

[01:03:23] Toliy: Yeah. Pretty, pretty frequently. 

[01:03:26] Mike: So he is always having fun at your expense. Yes. Yeah. That's sick. That's funny. I didn't know it hap I know it definitely happens. Mm-hmm. I've definitely seen it with you guys. I don't remember his specifics, but I do know it definitely. I definitely see witnessed it, but it's funny.

[01:03:42] I 

[01:03:42] Toliy: didn't know it happens frequently. That's funny. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's interesting. That's interesting.

[01:03:57] Yeah. Well, haven't they stepped out? Yeah, they stepped out. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So what do you think about this help thing? Any other things? The, the help thing you said? Yeah, the help thing. Oh, that's the topic 

[01:04:14] Mike: today, right? 

[01:04:14] Toliy: Yeah. But like what, what, what do I think about it? Like in what sense? Like, uh, 

[01:04:18] Mike: and like I'm saying, if you have any other things that you're thinking about with regards to help.

[01:04:22] Toliy: Yeah. No, I think that like, like my, my thing is that, um, I generally have always wanted people to not learn through pain. I'd rather them like, I've already experienced the pain, so let, let's, let's not like experience double the pain, you know? So like my, my automatic reaction's always like trying to, uh, maybe help people avoid some kind of pain.

[01:04:46] Because I had an attachment for them not to like suffer not to experience it as well. Um, when like I see something like clear as day, um, but I am seeing that like, um, pain is the language of choice for people like ba based on how they operate. Pain. Pain is the language of choice. Choice is, is a method like the, like the, uh, method of choice.

[01:05:11] So, um, if that's the actual method of choice, then, um, who am I to stop, stop them from experiencing pain? Like, then, then, then, then like, I'm, uh, taken away from learning because the, the, this is the way that they're saying that they want to learn. Um, 

[01:05:31] yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I agree. Yeah, 

[01:05:40] Mike: I think, I think, yeah, like the, the, what you said is interesting that.

[01:05:45] You, you already suffered like that pain, you know, and you obviously would like to help the person not have to go through it, but that's, that's kind of what I was thinking earlier was like, uh, so I was saying is that we don't know what the person has to go through outside of what we wish or we desire way.

[01:06:04] Well, no, I think it's the opposite. I think that 

[01:06:06] Toliy: we, we do know, we, we just know that they need to suff suffer out a way. But like for me at before it was more confusing because those same people, I hear their words, I hear them raise their hand and saying, Hey, I wanna do better. I wanna live a better life.

[01:06:20] I don't want, like, I want this, I wanna learn that. Like, I want help. Mm-hmm. You know? So when I hear those things mm-hmm. I'm like, okay, like this person clearly raised their hand, they want help. Mm-hmm. They're asking for it. So like they're saying that they, they, they don't wanna experience pain. Right.

[01:06:38] 'cause no one's gonna consciously tell you that. Like, Hey, yeah, no, Mike, I, I, I actually prefer to learn through pain. So. I don't want to hear your advice actually. Yeah, course. You know, no one's gonna say that ever. Um, so yeah. At, at times it's confusing in that kind of way. For, for me it was because like, I felt like these people are saying that yes, they, they would like to learn and they would like to do better.

[01:07:02] And then I'm like, okay, well, like why suffer more if there's already some answers here. And then, like, you already said that like, you wanna do better, you already said that you don't wanna have crazy pain. Mm-hmm. Um, so to me it only makes sense. Yeah. But then I, I learned to understand that those words that were said is not really the reality of the, uh, the situation.

[01:07:27] That the, the pain and the suffering is not really that bad. And that, that, that, that's what I was saying before is that when they talk about it, they take all of those moments and put it into like one moment, but. That's not the, uh, reality of things. 

[01:07:43] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. That is just like a, it's like, uh, they're referencing a thousand bad things that happen throughout their lives, but the way it's being presented, like it's like back, back, back.

[01:07:56] And that's why Yeah. Interpretation is like that, I think. Right. 

[01:08:01] Toliy: Well, we were talking about like the curiosity thing, that like, like, uh, I was giving Mike the example. I told him that this happened many times Yes. Between us, where like, oh, you'll sense that I took, yeah. That I'm taking a really strong stance on something and now because I'm doing that, you're gonna let me go like, fall on that like cliff now because.

[01:08:20] I'm having a strong take on it. I'm being a bit close-minded. So then in that process, at times, based on your reaction, um, like I could feel that you're not telling me everything, and then I'll have to reexamine it during that conversation, and then I'll wanna change my point and be like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[01:08:37] I actually want to be open-minded. I actually wanna understand, and then I'll have to like, pry it out of you and like, like prove to you almost that like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm worthy of this information. 

[01:08:48] Eldar: Mm. Yeah. But you know, I don't do it on purpose. Like, I don't have like a strategy that it's like, okay, cool.

[01:08:53] Like he's not doing this, therefore I have to apply this. 

[01:08:56] Toliy: Well, no, no, no. It is on purpose in the sense of like, you, you, you hear where, where, where I'm at and I'm choosing to take basically an ignorant take. Yeah. So because of that, you, you, you like allow the like a allow me to, to, to go down that hill.

[01:09:12] Yeah. Like go, go fall on that shield. Yeah. You know? 

[01:09:14] Eldar: Yeah, 

[01:09:15] Toliy: for sure. Um, but in the conversation. Like, once it con continues and I see what you're saying, I already feel that you're not telling me everything. So then I have to ask myself why and you, and like, then I have to go on the things. Then I have to reexamine my close-mindedness because now I'm super curious.

[01:09:34] Um, and when, when, when, when I'm aware of it, I can't like stop the curiosity, you know, like I need to find out what's actually like, the truth of the matter, like what's actually like the situation. So that that's when I go to like, 

[01:09:50] question everything.

[01:09:54] Okay. Mike, good strategy or what? 

[01:09:58] Mike: It is a good, but I was asking him when that kind of curiosity comes about, is that 'cause you generally wanna know or is it because like, uh, I'll push a button now. It's like a. Ego kind of pursuit of it. 

[01:10:11] Toliy: Well, I was saying that like, it, it depends on what's going on. 'cause like yeah, like when, when someone like doesn't take you seriously, for example, or has like a particular outlook of you when you realize that.

[01:10:23] Yeah, it's definitely like in that moment, for example, um, it definitely is an eagle blow. And then, but then you also wanna find out, well why, why is, why do these people have this opinion of me? Or like, why do they feel this way? And I think once you start asking those questions and getting curious about that, um, I like, I think it turns away from ego potentially.

[01:10:43] And it goes to actually finding out like, why is this? Like why do these people feel this way? Is this really going on? Am I not aware of something? Right? Like, what if I'm wrong? You start. Huh? What if I'm wrong in, in, in what sense though? 

[01:10:57] Eldar: In the sense that like, whatever it is that you're sharing with me or whatever you ready to take on, if I'm maybe withholding some information to make you curious, what if I'm withholding information that's actually wrong?

[01:11:09] Toliy: No, 

[01:11:09] Eldar: but this what if you are right? 

[01:11:10] Toliy: No, I'm not there. An example I think is the next 

[01:11:13] Mike: question. 

[01:11:13] Eldar: Well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't, I don't remember, but I know what he's talking about. And I know one of the 

[01:11:17] Toliy: times where this happened, I don't know if you, I mean, I remember where, where, where I was exactly.

[01:11:21] Okay. Uh, I was in the car in front of my parents' house. Mm-hmm. And we were talking about something with the Harris situ with, with with Harris. Mm-hmm. You know, and I was taking a particular, particular take on things, but I don't remember what it was. Mm-hmm. But I was taking a very particular take and you heard me, and then I'm like, well, why aren't you not saying anything?

[01:11:39] Why didn't you like, tell me? Like, one, once we got, like, once we continued it, like I felt that you weren't telling me everything. And then like, you, and, and, and then like, like afterwards I was like, well, why don't you tell me this from the start? And then you, you said, 'cause I heard what you were saying. I like you.

[01:11:55] Were you, you were taking a strong stance on something and then mm-hmm. Do you, do you remember this or something like Yeah. I mean, I've definitely said yeah, that, that kind of stuff. So yeah. Um, I'm guilty of it. Yeah, it was, uh, um, it was probably during the times of when, um, like Harris was disrespecting me, you know, Uhhuh and like the things he was comparing and doing and like saying 

[01:12:19] Eldar: Yeah.

[01:12:19] Toliy: And we were having conversations around that. Yeah, yeah, 

[01:12:22] Eldar: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I do remember 

[01:12:23] Toliy: that now. Um, and I think the stance I took on like what, what to do was like not a, a good one. And, and like, you heard me take that so then you were gonna allow me to just take it. Mm-hmm. But then, but then like in that conversation, I felt like there was like, like you weren't telling me everything.

[01:12:43] Okay. Because of that. Because you heard my strong stance. Yeah. But you, it's until it became open-minded. Yeah. That only then you were willing to, but 

[01:12:50] Eldar: you have to be very good then also be like, in that moment you have to be like attentive as well because like to a degree, it's like you're seeking for knowledge, you're seeking for truth.

[01:13:00] It's still on like that, that little. Radar is still on because on one hand you kind of took a position, but on the other hand, you're still looking for the truth. So like, 

[01:13:09] Toliy: well, well, I like, I already know that, like, if, if I'm talking to you about like any, anything in these kind of realms, if I'm not walking away with feeling like I've, I'm like, I'm empowered learning something or like that, like yeah.

[01:13:21] I understood something like that I didn't before. Mm. Then yeah, I probably know that like, I'm probably being ignorant and like, I like 

[01:13:27] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[01:13:28] Toliy: You're not telling me something here. 'cause 'cause you're not teaching me yet, you know? Yeah. Like, you're, you're allowing me to just be ignorant. Mm-hmm. And that means that I haven't been in, like, we're not in the learning phase yet.

[01:13:39] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:13:40] Toliy: So then I get curious as to why we're not in that phase yet. Because usually this is how it ends. 

[01:13:45] Eldar: That's interesting. And you say that's very effective? 

[01:13:48] Toliy: Well, uh, I mean it definitely something like I'm aware of, like, I usually don't leave the conversations with like, um, like not like learning something or not realizing something or not like.

[01:13:58] Yeah. Having a new perspective on something. Yeah. You know, so if I'm not leaving with that, probably like I, I, I, I'm also maybe you just addicted to 

[01:14:06] Eldar: epiphanies. 

[01:14:07] Toliy: Yeah. But like, I, like, I, I view myself as like, it, like, like an intuitive person, that kind of way. And like I, I, I feel when that it's like shits off.

[01:14:17] Shits off. Yeah. Yeah. I have a very high alert on that. 

[01:14:20] Mm. Okay. Mike?

[01:14:27] Uh, I don't have anything to add about that. Mm-hmm. Okay. But, but yeah.

[01:14:36] That's interesting that, um, that approach. 

[01:14:40] Eldar: Have you, have you had that with me too, or No, Mike? 

[01:14:45] Toliy: Mm, 

[01:14:46] Eldar: well you felt that way? Yeah. 

[01:14:47] Mike: Sometimes. Sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah. But, Hmm. But I think that was earlier, like a, a while Uhhuh before, but. I asked you like to gimme the unsolicited advice kind of thing. 

[01:15:01] Eldar: Mm-hmm. And 

[01:15:01] Mike: tell me when I'm wrong.

[01:15:02] So, and I kind of relying on that you are giving me when I'm, you know, wrong. You always tell me, uh, what, obviously when you're aware of it, I'm not expecting when I see it, what it's on 

[01:15:12] Eldar: my radar. Yeah. I try to, obviously. Yeah. 

[01:15:15] Mike: So, so yeah. I'm kind of like relying on that, but I sometimes, like, yeah, we can have a conversation and, uh, I'm not sure if we agreed or, or we disagreed.

[01:15:28] Mm-hmm. But sometimes it's like, maybe it's not that serious, so I don't overthink it. Mm-hmm. And sometimes I do think, and then I come back to you maybe like in a day or two and I'll bring it up like, Hey, we're having this conversation the other day. And, um, you may be like, yeah, well, you explain it to me like, Hey, you were arrogant or you had a strong stance on something and I didn't tell you.

[01:15:53] Eldar: Yeah. I, I, I, I definitely feel that I'm sensitive also to when people are holding, um, strong attachments to, uh, a particular take. Right. I am definitely sensitive to that. Yeah. Because, and, and to me it's becoming very, like, it's easy because, uh, I, I guess I'm able to, um, feel the force behind it that, that somebody's attached to, I'm able to feel how like attached they really are to it, you know what I mean?

[01:16:17] Because they have like a bone to pick. They almost have like this anger or whatever, which is pretty noticeable to me at least. You know, and obviously I don't wish that upon anyone to be aggy to be angry and stuff like that in order to take a stance and then like fix stuff through force. You know? I want people to be able to find the reasonable good, you know, like, um.

[01:16:41] I guess the easiest path to victory when it comes to, uh, you know, solving these problems instead of fighting with force, you know? So I definitely feel that. So when anybody takes that stance, I definitely, um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm becoming maybe a little bit shelled and, you know, I shell myself from giving the advice and like, okay, cool.

[01:17:01] Like they're really attached to like, let me ride with them and let them test out this theory in order for, for them to really like, um, get over it, get over their attachment, and then I can kind of come in and be ready to be able to assist them with whichever way they need assistance, you know? So I'm sensitive to that for sure.

[01:17:20] I see how that is, uh, a thing that I do use, but it's, it's become almost automatic for me. So it's not like something like I think twice about to do. Mm-hmm. It's like, you know, it's kind of like, oh, okay. Like it's automatic and I just kind of go into it, you know? But totally. It's also probably like, um, has become like a lot of people will not feel this out, right?

[01:17:41] So they won't see this, this is what I'm doing. Right. Like, I'll be very coy maybe. Right? Totally. Mm-hmm. Very like natural and organic. Yeah. I, when I totally is like fucking pest, 

[01:17:53] Toliy: when, when I hear these conversations, like as a third party. Oh yeah. I already know. I'm like, yo, that person's getting on right now.

[01:17:58] They, they're fucked. They're, you see it as there, right? Like clearly. Yeah. I, IL two. There, there, there, there's like a, like a fuckery going on over there, 

[01:18:05] Eldar: you know, there's a fuckery going on. Yeah. Yeah. Here we go. Right? They're signing themselves up. Yeah. Yeah. I already, I, I, you know, sees it. He's able to pick it up, you know?

[01:18:15] Uh, but to me it's like, I'm, it's like natural. It's like, it's like, like I said, organic to go down that path with them and enjoy that process or whatever, you know? So, 

[01:18:26] yeah, 

[01:18:27] obviously I, and obviously it works for me. I'm not complaining really. Right. Like, um. I really don't have any complaints about the way that, uh, humans learn.

[01:18:37] Like I, I think I respect the system. 

[01:18:39] Toliy: Yeah. Like, I, I, I, I, like, I know on a lot of topics, a lot of them pro probably the, like, the, uh, like 90% or more. You're probably right about it. 

[01:18:50] Eldar: Mm. 

[01:18:50] Toliy: You know, and if we're leaving on a note where like we're in a disagreement, um, maybe I'm wrong about something, I don't understand it, and I really wanna understand, like, I, I, I really wanna find out what's, what, what, like what am I not picking up here?

[01:19:06] Or like, what's, what's that like? 'cause if you're leaving with it on like a sour note, that means that you disagree with me, then that means that like, there's probably a high chance I'm wrong about it. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I could be having some ego or like, you know, different things. Like, we need to figure it out.

[01:19:22] You know, like I, I, yeah. You have a radar for that now. Yeah. Like, I, I don't feel good about it. Like, uh, it's because you 

[01:19:27] Eldar: went through this camp for many times. Oh, yeah. And you, like, you, you would just get to chase of finding the truth rather than be attached to a specific out Oh, yeah. Specific thing. 

[01:19:36] Toliy: Yeah.

[01:19:37] Eldar: Which is good. I mean, that's, that's, that's your superpower, 

[01:19:39] Toliy: you know. For sure. 

[01:19:44] Eldar: So, yeah, I mean, I, like, I don't have anything else. Like, I, I mean, I definitely understood the topic a little bit better. My, for myself as how people learn and what we ought to do in order, if we're in the position of teaching, right.

[01:19:55] What we need to do and how do we have to position ourselves, you know, in order to kind of get to the, to the bottom of things, you know? And totally is right. I think, you know. Be as available as possible and ask them like, Hey, like, how can I help you here? You know, like, what can I do for you? You know? And they'll let the people come up with a plan.

[01:20:12] Right. And if they come up with a plan, and then you dis in the disagreements with you see that they're very attached to it. Yeah. Like, uh, rock with it. 

[01:20:19] Toliy: Yeah. Like you, you, you almost, I think like you can't be their teacher. Yeah. You, you can only be someone's an assistant. You Yeah. Yeah. Like, you can only be someone, someone's teacher when, um, they've proved to themselves, they genuinely don't know, and they've exhausted all of their options.

[01:20:35] Hmm. Like, they've exhausted everything that they, and they actually see you as a teacher in that moment. They actually, yes, yes. You can only be a teacher then, but more times than not, you know, most people want to be a teacher right away. 

[01:20:47] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:20:48] Toliy: Um, but I think you need to be more of like a, a yeah. Like an assistant, like an aide, like a guide, like a, uh, you know, like you, you have to, um, assist them in what and, and what they ask for.

[01:21:01] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:21:02] Toliy: Up until. They, they don't know how to be helped. And then when they don't know how to be help, how they can be helped. I, I, I think more or less they start to be more receptive to outside help because like they, they be, because like they, they prove that they can't govern themselves Yeah. On something and they need someone else to help govern them or help teach them, you know?

[01:21:25] Um, but yeah, I think over overall, like, um, I'm, I'm, I'm like concluding more, uh, along the lines of like, there's no right time for help. There's like, it's, yeah, it's like a very, like a weird, weird phenomenon to, to me about like, they're, they're, they're, they're just this preferred way of learning through pain that everybody, pretty much everybody is showing at all times that thi this is how they prefer to learn.

[01:21:57] So why are you taking them away from their preferred like language model? 

[01:22:03] Eldar: Very good point. Very good 

[01:22:04] Toliy: question. And oftentimes, uh, I, I was telling Mike when you were gone, like for me, um, at times it's like a confusion thing because it's like, again, when they're vocalizing things, they're like, Hey, I'm in pain.

[01:22:14] This sucks. I wanna improve this. I want to be better. I wanna learn. So like, like this is what's being vocalized. So I'm like, okay, well hey, I've suffered through this, I've experienced the pain through this. Why do we gotta suffer double? Why do we need to have double the pain here? Mm-hmm. 

[01:22:31] Eldar: Yeah. Why 

[01:22:31] Toliy: don't you just listen to me?

[01:22:33] That what to do. Yeah. I got you. Yeah, we're good here. You already said that you're in pain and you want help. Right? So this to me is like a no brainer. 

[01:22:45] Eldar: Yeah. You know? 

[01:22:46] Mike: Yeah. The, the thing is like, I guess because you are out of it, you, um, maybe, I think I, I think I said this before, like the suffering that you went through to learn that lesson, that's what kind of helped you to get to this side.

[01:23:01] And I guess it's, you should respect it in a way because that was your teacher. I guess it's obviously not the best teacher, but it seems like that's the teacher. But like the per, you have to respect that that person has to go through that same suffering to learn that lesson too. 

[01:23:15] Toliy: Yeah. No. Yes. But what I'm saying is that like, for a long time I felt like, Hey, why do we need to all suffer when there's already been suffering done?

[01:23:23] Let's learn. Like, you, you ev like everyone has heard this at Salon, it's always better to learn through other people's mistakes. Yeah. Right? Yes. Yeah. Right. Like, and there's no chance. Mm-hmm. There, there's maybe like yes on some things, right? Like, yeah, like, uh, uh, I don't know, like how many times for example, have, have people seen in the news, whether it's athletes, whoever, just people have firework incidents with like something damaging to their hand, fingers getting mm-hmm.

[01:23:54] Having to get cut off or like, you know, stuff like that. Right? Like you've heard that forever, right? Yeah, of course. People still have these accidents 

[01:24:02] over and over again. Yeah.

[01:24:08] Why? Right? Yeah. Like 

[01:24:11] they, they've clearly heard about this. Yeah. Um, they could, they, like, it continues to happen. So clearly if it continues to happen, you are proving that you cannot learn from other people's mistakes. Mm-hmm. So may maybe that would be the best skill to have, is to be able to learn from other people's mistakes.

[01:24:30] And I, and I think that, like you also have 

[01:24:31] Eldar: a very good imagination, right? Y 

[01:24:32] Toliy: well, yes. And I think that as you progress, you can lean on memory and imagination rather than like, physical pain. 

[01:24:40] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:24:41] Toliy: More, um, 

[01:24:41] Eldar: because you are able to induce a little bit of that pain through imagination almost. Yeah. Like through, through imagining it.

[01:24:46] Toliy: Yeah. Like for like, like, like for example, like I've never sent, um. I dunno. I'll just say enough emails for like a domain to get completely banned. Right. For like spam. 

[01:24:58] Eldar: Yeah. You 

[01:24:58] Toliy: know, but I, you, you read online and you hear stories of people like saying, Hey, you can't send this many, you have to do this, you have to go through this, you have to go this warmup process.

[01:25:06] Mm-hmm. Like this. Mm-hmm. Right. So like, yeah. I definitely don't need to experience a pain of getting banned Yeah. To then start to do this. Like I'm able to read this information. Yeah. So like, hey, this is not a good idea. I agree. Yeah. Right. But see it only works in that kind of way when you agree with it, 

[01:25:22] Eldar: when you agree.

[01:25:22] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:25:22] Eldar: When 

[01:25:23] Toliy: you agree, when you 

[01:25:23] Eldar: disagree 

[01:25:24] Toliy: that you gotta learn. Yes. 

[01:25:26] Eldar: You have 

[01:25:26] Toliy: to learn. Yeah. 

[01:25:27] Eldar: Well, in that specific thing Yeah. Spread that specific thing. You can agree with other people's experiences and you agree with the knowledge. Yes. 

[01:25:33] Toliy: That so like, other people maybe had to do this and then they started, you know, putting out information on this Yeah.

[01:25:37] And teaching this and raising awareness, ra raising awareness of this. So yeah. I don't need to step in that shit to know that, you know, it's bad, you know? Yeah. Um, but yeah. But plenty of things. You still do like, uh, the, like, no matter how much I internally personally progress, like I also still continue to learn through pain, that 

[01:25:57] that's very consistent for me.

[01:26:02] Yeah. 

[01:26:05] So, yeah. My, my like, main, main thing from this is to like yeah. Be, to be very careful and attentive to what people are actually saying, um, to, to see if that's really how they're feeling. So ask more questions, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That, and then put time on it, right? Yeah. Because you could do nothing but give people time.

[01:26:24] And that pain, you'll see that pain is still that bad. Yes. Or, or it goes down, right? 

[01:26:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:26:31] Toliy: Um, get to that like surgeon level where like, yo, like mm-hmm. You, this guy's got a good, they're gonna do it. Like he never has to ask for, for like see if, see, see if you're okay to learn or not. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That person is getting life lifesaving treatment.

[01:26:45] Eldar: Yeah. Right. 

[01:26:46] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:26:47] That that never happens to 

[01:26:48] that person. No.

[01:26:55] Um, you wanna get to the point? Yes. You know, 

[01:26:59] Eldar: so find a way to get to the point. 

[01:27:01] Toliy: Yeah. Find a way to get to the point and Yeah. B, try to be more of a, uh, let let them tell you how you feel that they could, like, um, then, then they're also never gonna get upset at you either because like Ah, they're very 

[01:27:13] Eldar: important 

[01:27:14] Toliy: point.

[01:27:14] Yeah. They're, they're the one kind of telling you, Hey, like, like, hey, hey Eldar, like this is the best way for you to help me, you know? 

[01:27:21] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:27:21] Toliy: And if you do everything 

[01:27:22] Eldar: they tell you and you're there. Yes. Yeah. 

[01:27:24] Toliy: Yeah. And how can they blame you? And I think naturally through that process, you'll exhaust all their understandings and their agner and, and, and, and their like arrogance and their ignorance.

[01:27:35] That's right. You'll do all that and then it'll be time for you to take over. 

[01:27:39] Eldar: Yeah. That's it. The gig is up. Your gig is up. Yeah. Your play, you're, you're done. Yeah. Now it's my play. Yeah. 

[01:27:46] Toliy: Because now it's like, hey, like I don't even, I don't even know how I can leverage you like to, to help me. Well, now that there's like, you don't know what to do.

[01:27:54] Right. We've already tried everything. So 

[01:27:57] Eldar: you almost get to, you, you almost want to get to the person to finally surrender. Yes. Okay. Yes. To finally say, you know what? I actually don't know and I'm ready. And willing and able respect. Yes. A lot of times 

[01:28:10] Toliy: people give fake surrenders, you know, Hey, I'm done. I'm done.

[01:28:12] Yes. I'm like, 

[01:28:13] Eldar: yeah, Tommy's really good at this one. 

[01:28:15] Toliy: Yes, 

[01:28:15] Eldar: yes. You know, we just fine Tom, we we have, uh, we we have enough rope. 

[01:28:20] Toliy: Yes, 

[01:28:21] Eldar: yes. 

[01:28:22] Toliy: You know, so yeah. That, that, that's it. For, for, for me, historically it's been difficult to, to see. 'cause I, I personally like, um, people that I like, uh, care about. Mm-hmm. I don't like to see them go through pain.

[01:28:38] Mm-hmm. Or like self suffer. 

[01:28:39] Eldar: Why? 

[01:28:41] Toliy: No. Like, I've always felt that way. Like I've always felt poorly. Like, and now it's changing. Why? Well, now, now it's changing because May, maybe for a long time I felt that like, because they're ignorant, they don't deserve it. Oh. You know? 

[01:28:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:28:54] Toliy: Like, they don't know any better.

[01:28:57] Oh, they earned this shit. Right. But they earned it. Yeah, they earned it. Yeah. They, they, they did. And like, yeah. Just because they're ignorant to something Well, like everybody is mm-hmm. Ignorant to something. This is why they're going through that to begin with. Show me a per Yeah. Show me a person who's like, intentionally experiencing pain because they, they prefer to.

[01:29:15] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:29:16] Toliy: You know, um, like, so like coming to terms with that kind of like a reality and like understanding that like this is how, how it happens, 

[01:29:30] um, it changes your perspective, you know? Yeah. No, you're right.

[01:29:43] So we solved it, Mike, or did we not solve it? I think we, we did solve it. 

[01:29:50] Eldar: We know how people learn and what, what is needed for them to learn. Yeah. 

[01:29:55] Mike: I think, you 

[01:29:56] Eldar: know, with the type of, the type of environment Yeah. The, it's fine 

[01:30:00] Mike: tuning your radar to actually read what's being said. Yeah. You know, and not fantasize with your own imagination, I guess, if you wanna say it.

[01:30:08] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:30:09] Mike: To help the person with something that they're actually gonna asking for help with, you know? Yeah. And I think it's a lot of times hidden, oh, I care for this person. Oh, he's my friend, or there's my brothers, my sister, you know, bro, I don't have that bro at 

[01:30:23] Eldar: all. Like, I don't have that at all. Yeah. I don't have that.

[01:30:27] I don't have that. Yeah. Like, and I think the reason why I don't have that is because my ability of to give the undivided attention to that person, you know? Yeah. I'm like, I'm spared from that, that thing. You know, like mm-hmm. If you actually want my attention, I'll give it. And because I give it, I never get to that point of like, oh, this is my, this is my sister, this is my mom.

[01:30:51] Like mm-hmm. You know, I care so much for them. Like I'm never on the back foot of, of giving, I guess, you know? 

[01:30:58] Mike: Yeah, yeah. But it's also what you said, I care for them. It's like I actually care for them in that, in that situation when they're wrong is like saying, oh, good job. You did the wrong thing. Let me feel bad for you.

[01:31:10] Yeah. You can't do that and not do that. It's wrong to do such a thing because most of the time when people are wrong, they're actually wrong. And, and supporting that behavior. 

[01:31:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:31:22] Mike: It's, whether it's ignorance or arrogance or ego or whatever, it's wrong. 'cause it's on you to not be ignorant and to find out like, uh, 

[01:31:33] Toliy: whatever's it's in your hands.

[01:31:35] You could be empowered. To, to find out 

[01:31:40] Mike: what's actually happening in life. 

[01:31:43] Eldar: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the faster you get there, the faster you're gonna have open communication, I think, with that individual to be able to finally say what you actually, what's on your mind. And I think this is a very important part, you know?

[01:31:55] Mm-hmm. Where we got to the chase, you know, with Tommy, for example. Mm-hmm. You know, maybe with you, with your dad, Catherine, with her mom, totally with his dad, me, with my mom, whoever, right? Mm-hmm. With you guys or whatever. We, we got to the chase, finally. We cut to the chase and we finally can have, you know, say, uh, no Tom, right?

[01:32:16] Or no mom, I'm not believing this. You know why. Mm-hmm. These are the receipts. You're a bullshitter. I don't take you seriously. You can't say anything. That's it. We cut to the chase. Mm-hmm. Now I can be the bad guy, quote unquote, but not be the bad guy. But I'm justified. Bad guy. I'm a justified bad guy. Huh?

[01:32:32] There's another quote on the shirt.

[01:32:38] Toliy: You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like, 

[01:32:44] Mike: uh, you're just the judge. You're not the, you're just giving a verdict, bro. You know? I like that. Yeah. You're, you're not holding, you're not like, you're just a messenger. Like they say, don't shoot the messenger. Right? 

[01:32:58] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:32:59] Mike: But you're just the, you're just the judge, bro.

[01:33:00] You the guy who's saying what the jury decided, the jury of life, if you wanna call it that Yeah. Has decided that this is what you need. This is what you deserve. This is what you have earned. Yeah. What, what the problem is, you know, 

[01:33:11] Eldar: with interpreters. 

[01:33:13] Mike: Yes. Yes. And I think that's the best role we can play because it's, it's the right role 

[01:33:19] Eldar: to play.

[01:33:19] Mm. Best role we can play 

[01:33:22] Toliy: is being an interpreter. Wow, Mike. Very good, Mr. Interpreter. Holy shit. Okay. You said it, Mike. I didn't say it. You said it. Mm-hmm. That's the best 

[01:33:44] Eldar: role we can play. 

[01:33:46] Mm-hmm. 

[01:33:47] Yeah. And then it's, it's not personal, right? It's no longer personal anymore. No, it's, it's just business. And the business is life reality.

[01:33:57] God's plan. 

[01:33:58] Yeah. 

[01:33:58] Mm-hmm. The system, the design. Right. And we respect it. 

[01:34:03] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. But the problem is you can't be mad at the judge for giving you the verdict, but, but you did the crime, bro. But why are you mad at me? I'm just giving you the news. 

[01:34:14] Eldar: Are you 

[01:34:14] Mike: mad at the jurors or 

[01:34:15] Eldar: no? 

[01:34:17] Mike: I don't, I don't know. I think probably not at everybody at that point.

[01:34:21] Mm-hmm. By yourself. You know, because again, that's another topic, but the accountability. Nobody wants to say, Hey, I did the crime. Now I gotta, the time I do with what I'm being accused of now I gotta do the time. Yeah. Nobody is, everyone wants to just get away with everything forever, you know? Yes. And think that this is okay and this is how, and it's gonna work out.

[01:34:39] Yeah. Miraculously like this is gonna work out. Like in what world. 

[01:34:43] Eldar: That's why that conversation you were having with Andre 

[01:34:46] Mike: Yes. 

[01:34:46] Eldar: About that. It's very interesting because now that just came to my mind. Yes. Yeah. 

[01:34:50] Mike: That's exactly what I thought about too. When I said that. I like, yo, this is where I'm out with Andre.

[01:34:54] You see? You see 

[01:34:54] Eldar: I'm, am I reading your mind or are you making me read your mind? My mind? God dammit. Might be both. Yes. A little bit of both. Yeah. That was a perfect segment. Yeah. You know, segue to what you said. Yeah. 

[01:35:05] Mm-hmm. 

[01:35:08] That's justice. I guess that maybe we're gonna save that for the next, next topic.

[01:35:13] So what are your final thoughts on this, Mike? Or that was your final thoughts. No, I, 

[01:35:16] Mike: that was my final. I got nothing else to add. Yeah. 

[01:35:19] Eldar: Yeah. I agree with everything you said. I agree. You know, and I'm gonna just ride with that. And, uh, you know, any advice? I mean, this whole thing was an advice on how to properly communicate.

[01:35:31] Right. How to find the right moment, how to be patient and be compassionate. Mm-hmm. Compassionate. 

[01:35:36] Yeah. 

[01:35:37] Right. And then allow the person enough rope, right. To see things for what they are. And uh, you can just be that, like you said, an interpreter to finally interpret it all properly. Alright, Mike, well thank you.

[01:35:50] This was great. Yeah. Thank you guys. All right, man. Have a good one.