202. Grace

“Why am I the only one following the rules?”

We’ve all been there: you and your partner agree on a boundary—like no phones around the kids—only to find them scrolling through social media five minutes later. In this episode, Eldar, Mike, Katherine, and Toliy dive into a raw, real-life scenario from listener "Joe" to unpack why communication breakdowns happen even when we have the best intentions.

We explore the "Socratic notion" that no one knowingly does wrong and how emotional depletion and parenting stress turn simple agreements into battlegrounds of resentment. Whether you are navigating relationship dynamics, co-parenting challenges, or your own ADHD distractions, this episode reveals the one missing ingredient in your house: Grace.

Key Takeaways:

• The Asterisk Rule: Why every relationship agreement needs a hidden "asterisk" for human error and mental health.
• Timing vs. Truth: Why saying the right thing at the wrong time (like during a heated argument) is the fastest way to get "flack" instead of change.
• The Depletion Factor: How being a tired parent or facing uncertainty and anxiety physically stops us from following the rules we set for ourselves.
• The Phone Addiction Debate: A hilarious but deep look at screen time—is it a distraction, a relaxation tool, or a "90% of the time" problem?

The Most Insightful Moment:

"Silence is scary... and the chaos is peaceful in a paradoxical way." — Mike

Are you struggling with a specific life story or a communication hurdle? We want to hear it! Fill out the form in our description to have your story featured and dissected by the team.

Watch us live on Twitch and join the conversation!

We all think we know how to raise our kids and manage our families, but at the end of the day... do we actually know anything at all? Stay tuned for the final thoughts where we ask: Is your partner checking out because they don't care, or are you the one with the dangerous attachments?

Feel stuck and can't actualize? We'd love to hear your story - form  - https://forms.gle/joegCWQ7mHt7eN3K9

Transcript

[00:00:00] Dennis: On this week's episode, 

[00:00:01] Mike: I think sometimes things happen where people kind of go along for stuff that they don't really want to get involved in. Correct. You know? 

[00:00:06] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:00:07] Mike: Go 

[00:00:07] Eldar: to. A lot of times, A lot of times this happens a lot of times underlying relationships. Resentment starts to build. 

[00:00:12] Mike: Yes. I would like to prefer to do things that are fun and not the fears, the insecurities, the anxieties that I created for myself or that I was shaped because of my parents.

[00:00:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:00:20] Mike: No blame to them. Yeah, obviously. But now it's on me to find out. People will say, I tried everything, 

[00:00:27] Eldar: but why have you tried? What an arrogant thing. I mean, everything. And you can come across a conversation where you realize like, oh shit, that's a new perspective. I haven't tried that. Lemme try that.

[00:00:45] All right guys. On tonight's episode, we're gonna talk about timing and the importance of it and how it affects a lot of our decision making, how we approach relationships, how we communicate, and, um, to weave it all together. We're gonna have an actual real life example by one of our dedicated listeners that actually listens live as well on Twitch.

[00:01:09] Wow. Okay. Um, and if anyone wants to submit any kind life story or anything that they want to have a perspective on, feel free to fill out one of our forms. It's on all our descriptions. We can fill that form out and then we can, uh, digest your actual life story and give you maybe a perspective that you haven't heard about before.

[00:01:30] No kidding. That's, yeah. Oh, no kidding. Yes. Um, so, and this one comes from, uh, you know, a listener Joe, and, um, 

[00:01:41] Katherine: what if you wants to stay anonymous? 

[00:01:43] Eldar: Uh, no, he doesn't. He 

[00:01:44] Katherine: anonymous. That's 

[00:01:45] Eldar: fine. He's anonymous, I think. Yeah. He doesn't have any social media profiles. Yeah. True. You know what I'm saying? He kinda like, he's a stealth guy, you know.

[00:01:51] Yeah. He's, he's, no, he, he is not here or there. 

[00:01:53] Toliy: Incognito. 

[00:01:53] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:01:55] Mike: Incognito. 

[00:01:55] Eldar: Yeah. We're still not sure whether or not his real name is Joe. 

[00:01:58] Mike: Yes, 

[00:01:58] Eldar: true. You know what I mean? But he, he, he is Joe, and he listens to the podcast religiously. He loves it. I hope, you know, and I think he can get something from it, and especially this episode, because we're gonna talk about his specific scenario, uh, which he, you know, ran by us.

[00:02:13] Right. And if you guys don't know what it is, I'll mention it real quick. Obviously the listeners don't know, so I'm gonna say it. So, um, how did he present it? He said that, uh, I had a little moment with my wife. Right. They, uh, they're currently are co-parenting, right? Is that, does, does that the word? 

[00:02:31] Katherine: Yeah.

[00:02:31] They're raising a, 

[00:02:31] Eldar: they're raising a, a 

[00:02:32] Katherine: baby together. 

[00:02:33] Eldar: They're married, they're, they're raising a baby together, you know, and obviously there's certain, you know, rules maybe that they've placed or maybe certain, uh, agreements that they came, uh, you know. Agreed upon how they're gonna raise the kid or whatever.

[00:02:47] And the thing that he mentioned is that, um, a lot of times, you know, their son wants their attention, you know, and he's constantly asking for attention or whatever it is to play with him. And, um, there was a scenario where Joe was cooking, okay, dinner or whatever of lunch, and the son was asking him for attention.

[00:03:06] He wanted to play with him. And Joe mentioned, Joe said to the son, Hey, go play with mommy. You know, and because, you know, she was available at that time or so, Joe thought she was available. 'cause when Joe turned around, he saw that actually Mommy was on the phone at that moment and Benny wasn't getting the attention that he actually wanted.

[00:03:25] But it seems like that they've agreed upon that, you know, we should not be on our phones, especially when the son needs our attention. Let's try to keep the phone on the side. 

[00:03:34] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:35] Eldar: You know what I mean? Um, he did mention that, you know, she, she, you know, he asked her whatever, and she was on the phone with a friend, you know, messaging or whatever, which was not necessarily an emergency.

[00:03:46] She did say that, you know, in case of an emergency. I understand, but if it's not 

[00:03:50] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[00:03:50] Eldar: Let's, you know, give the undivided attention to, to the son, you know. Um, so what happened was, uh, the way he put it. He said that, look, Eldar, I, uh, I knew that I, you know, when I was gonna say, make a comment about what I, you know, witnessed, um, that she was gonna get upset and I, he even prefaced that to her, said, look, you know, uh, what I'm gonna say to you right now is gonna make you upset, but I'd like for you to take it, take it in in a more maybe, uh, educational or maybe, you know, reflect on it a little bit more, whatever.

[00:04:23] But he didn't get that right. She obviously got upset and 

[00:04:26] Toliy: fired. You felt it's impossible to, uh, 

[00:04:27] Eldar: that Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's what we're gonna talk about. Yeah, exactly. So hold, hold your horses. Right. Hard to not 

[00:04:32] Katherine: take it 

[00:04:32] Eldar: personally, maybe. Yeah. He, he obviously went and said, Hey, like, you know, you on your phone, you know, the son, our son needs attention.

[00:04:40] You know, why, why are you doing that kind of thing? You know? And but he prefaced it to her that like, she's gonna get upset before that, you know, but he said it anyway. So you kind of already knew what was gonna happen, the reaction, but he did it anyway. Obviously he got the flack back, right? Or she, he got, you know, uh, static back where his wife started to mention some examples where he was on his phone when they were doing a, a thing with, with their 

[00:05:02] Katherine: son.

[00:05:02] When they give Benny like a bath, for example, together. Like, he'll grab his phone, I think is what he 

[00:05:06] Eldar: said. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. 

[00:05:07] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:05:07] Eldar: Um. And it went into a back and forth match, kind of like who does what, you know, probably. And a little bit of static came outta that. Mm-hmm. And you know, what he took from that, obviously, you know, after they've butted butted heads right now, now there's a separation for that moment.

[00:05:24] And now Joe is sitting there kind of in his own little world reflecting on what happened. You know, and he obviously, you know, read this by me and said, Hey, you know, maybe we could talk about it. And, and I quickly started extracting certain things about this specific scenario. And I think that timing, um, is, is the topic that we should talk about when it comes to, uh, communication specifically.

[00:05:47] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:47] Eldar: Alright. Um, what do you guys think about that scenario? How, how, how should Joe handled something like that? Uh, what did he do right? What did he do wrong? Um, and how does timing play into, you know, into this role? 

[00:06:02] Toliy: Hmm. 

[00:06:05] Eldar: I can start. Seems like you guys are blanking. I can start right. Number one, I think that because Joel already knew, uh, that the reaction's gonna be such, he predicted it, right?

[00:06:15] He went with it anyway. Right. So to me it's like, it's almost like, is that, is that the reaction he was looking for? Is that what he actually wanted? Obviously not. Right. When we start, when we try to criticize our partner or try to make some kind of a comment about what they're wrongdoing, we want them to quickly learn to quickly change, to do some, to do the right thing.

[00:06:34] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:06:35] Eldar: Right. But a lot of times we don't get, well, we 

[00:06:37] Katherine: don't give 

[00:06:37] Mike: enough the grace period. I think what you're saying is, and obviously I don't know 

[00:06:41] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:06:41] Mike: But the back end, but when you started saying that, I think it depends. 

[00:06:46] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:47] Mike: If you, if it, if you're coming, like if Joe was coming from a place of frustration that this has happened multiple times mm-hmm.

[00:06:53] And he hasn't said anything. 

[00:06:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:06:55] Mike: He's built up a level of frustration. 

[00:06:56] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:57] Mike: So he could've came across, uh, because there's a buildup, it's not gonna come across, you're not actually trying to help that person. You're trying to like release the frustration. Tension. 

[00:07:04] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:07:05] Mike: You know? Yeah. So he could have been tense in the moment about it.

[00:07:08] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:07:08] Mike: I said, don't know. I'm just like, you know, speculating around certain incidents that could happen where a lot of times people do 

[00:07:14] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:07:14] Mike: Hold back and it builds up and then there's like a big release 

[00:07:19] Eldar: from personal experience. 

[00:07:20] Mike: Yes. From personal experience. Yeah. 

[00:07:21] Okay. 

[00:07:22] Mike: Yeah. So I'm not sure if that's in Joe's case, but I do think that a lot of times that's what does happen, where people.

[00:07:31] Um, 

[00:07:31] Eldar: well, in, in, in Joe's defense, uh, let's say that they did have an agreement, right? Yeah. Both adults, I, I mean, we all could have this agreement, right? They're like, if we're gonna raise a child 

[00:07:40] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[00:07:40] Eldar: Right. I think it if they want our attention, right? Yeah. Uh, I think it is wise, it is smart not to be buried in our phones, on social media, on some other random bullshit.

[00:07:51] You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Because the undivided attention is the most priced possession here that we can give our child. 

[00:07:56] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:57] Eldar: I agree with this. 

[00:07:58] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:07:58] Eldar: Right. Um, obviously it's a good agreement. However, I think that maybe Joe, when putting together certain agreements, right? He does not put an asterisk next to it.

[00:08:08] Right. And I would advise for him to put an asterisk where it's like, okay, that's a, this is a good idea, however, right. Uh, we are humans too, right. We also have our needs. We also have our quirks, we also have our flaws. Right. And in those instances, sometimes those things shine through because we don't have all the unlimited energy to give to, to our kids, to our dogs, to our friends, our loved ones or whatever.

[00:08:35] So I think we will be buried in our phones, scrolling through social media as a way of to release or relax. 

[00:08:41] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:41] Eldar: Uh, get a distraction or, you know, that kind of stuff. So I, I find it, that's probably Joe is on the rigid side when it comes to these types of agreements where. Uh, I mean, I know this probably, I'm pretty sure because I've, we spoke so many times about his approach versus our approach because a lot of times we land in the same, uh, boat where he believes that the person knows what to do, what's the right thing to do, what they do and wrong anyway.

[00:09:10] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:10] Eldar: You know what, we argue that in the moment. Right. They actually don't know. 

[00:09:15] Katherine: Yeah. You, you argue the opposite. 

[00:09:17] Eldar: We argue the opposite. We, we stand with Socrates who says, no one knowingly does wrong. 

[00:09:21] Katherine: Okay. 

[00:09:22] Eldar: Joe, you know, fundamentally disagrees with this notion. I see. You know, where we say no, we try to break this, break this down and stuff, and explain to you like that in that moment, you know, uh, his wife did not purposely did what she did 

[00:09:35] Katherine: mm-hmm.

[00:09:36] Eldar: When it comes to raising their son and giving, not giving him their attention. Mm. Right, right. At the time when she had the discussion with Joe about the disagreement that, you know, that phones should not be used, which should not bury ourselves into these phones when Benny needs our attention. 

[00:09:51] Katherine: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:51] Eldar: You know, uh, she was clear-minded. She was there, she was present, and she agreed upon that. 

[00:09:57] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:58] Eldar: You know, I think that a lot of times we have a hard time not realizing that there's two different, we're constantly changing, we're constantly have moments throughout the day where, uh, one day you have energy for me, another day you don't have energy for me.

[00:10:14] Mm-hmm. And we don't distinguish those two very well. But I think in really in loving relationships, or at least if you claim to love the other person, I think you have to challenge yourself to see what love actually looks like. Right. Or, and part of it is giving grace to individuals who maybe fall in the same, uh, wrong pattern.

[00:10:33] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:10:34] Eldar: What do you guys think? 

[00:10:37] Mike: Well, I mean, she accused them of doing the same. Yeah. Which is interesting. Yeah. And then it has to be, I mean, I don't know, but I think a lot of times the people who want to enforce, legislate strict rules 

[00:10:53] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:10:54] Mike: Are they necessarily holding themselves to those standards?

[00:10:57] Eldar: That's a very good question. A lot of times I think that, you know, uh, I mean, and we go through this too with Catherine, right. A lot of times, uh, uh, she's like, oh, you're on your phone. We watching a show, right. Or a movie. 

[00:11:09] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:09] Eldar: And I go on my phone and she is very quick to criticize me 

[00:11:13] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[00:11:13] Eldar: To be in on the phone.

[00:11:14] Mike: Okay. 

[00:11:15] Eldar: But I'm gonna tell you this right now. And this is not a lie or exaggeration. Yeah. I do it. I do it. Statistic. Okay. 

[00:11:20] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:11:21] Eldar: That Catherine is 90% of the time while we watch our shows is on her phone. Mm. 90 stretch. I'm 90 10%. I'm not stretching this. Yeah. Wait, 

[00:11:31] Toliy: wait, wait. 90%. So if the show is an hour 

[00:11:35] Eldar: Correct.

[00:11:36] Toliy: If 90% of the time on her phone. On the 

[00:11:38] Eldar: phone, this is correct. 

[00:11:39] Toliy: Stop it. 

[00:11:40] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:11:42] Katherine: How, how would I, 

[00:11:43] Eldar: you understand this? See, however, show however, guys, however, how 

[00:11:46] Katherine: I see the show, 

[00:11:47] Eldar: when the, the show captures her attention if she's really in it, right? Mm-hmm. She pays attention to it for only 10%. No, no, no. When she does, for example, no, I'm talking, talking about total the show, right?

[00:11:58] For example, is not all the, the time, obviously, right. But whatever, when she's actually paying attention and I have a moment of like, go on my phone. Mm-hmm. She's very quickly like, like, wants to shut that down. Yeah. She's quickly to like, yo, like why are you on your phone? Kind of thing. We're watching the show, babe, come back.

[00:12:13] Katherine: Can I, can I just like enter, like, I just wanna insert a parentheses there. 

[00:12:18] Eldar: You, you can, 

[00:12:19] Katherine: so there's this thing that Elder and I have when we watch a show that elder's like watching with me. Like he's sitting next to me and we're watching the same show and I'll turn to him and I'm like, oh my gosh. And like I'll talk about what we just.

[00:12:33] SA and El will look at me and have no idea what I'm talking about. And I'm like, wait, did you not just see that? What do you mean? Like, aren't you watching with me? And he's like, well, I, I don't know. I was like, somewhere else. And I'm like, this happens so often. So like for me, it's like a thing between us.

[00:12:50] This is just called a 

[00:12:50] Eldar: deflection. Yeah. 

[00:12:51] Katherine: No, no, no. It's, what does this have to do with bad the witness? 

[00:12:55] Eldar: I'm not on my phone at this time. 

[00:12:56] Toliy: Are you, are you on the phone? 

[00:12:58] Katherine: 90% is of the 

[00:12:58] Toliy: time thing 

[00:12:59] Katherine: is he's, I wouldn't say 90%. Yes. What would you say though? But I do have to, I, I'm not denying that if, if, if this is a part, I get bored very easily or uninterested in, in a topic.

[00:13:10] She's 

[00:13:10] Eldar: shopping, she's scrolling, 

[00:13:12] Katherine: she's doing stuff. So no. So like, I will, and 

[00:13:13] Eldar: I'm giving Grace 

[00:13:14] Katherine: the whole time when it's a little dead. 

[00:13:15] Eldar: This whole time 

[00:13:16] Katherine: I will, I have a specific app where I sell stuff and I start sharing. Like it's, it's a mindless thing that I do to put like, to kind of bring my stuff to like the top just as, as a thing.

[00:13:27] So like, if it's boring, I'll just do that for a few minutes and then as soon as it grabs my attention, I'll like, I'll put my phone down. 

[00:13:34] Eldar: Most of the shows that we watch, we love these shows. Mm-hmm. And we love watching them together. Yeah. I am glued to the shows. Right. You know, this all violent. 

[00:13:41] I'm 

[00:13:41] Katherine: just saying 

[00:13:42] Eldar: though.

[00:13:42] Love of blind. Yeah. All the stupid shit. We love it. Yeah. 

[00:13:44] Katherine: I just, guys, I need you to know that this little Kathryn's on a phone, 90% of moment that happens between us. No, 

[00:13:49] Eldar: but I understand 

[00:13:49] Katherine: all those women is when he's not on his phone, he's know what's he actually watching? And I'm like, babe. So we, we, the way we connect, were you falling 

[00:13:56] Toliy: asleep 

[00:13:57] Katherine: for these shows?

[00:13:58] Mike: No. 

[00:13:58] Katherine: Yes, Tony. It's a good question. 

[00:13:59] Mike: Mike. Do you know? Yeah, of course. I mean, I have an idea. Yeah, go ahead. You're processing what you're, you are thinking about everything you did that you just witnessed this happened and you're trying to understand what the fuck is happening, why is happening. Correct.

[00:14:09] You're trying to understand the logic. Correct. 

[00:14:10] Eldar: What's happening? 

[00:14:11] Mike: A lot of times 

[00:14:12] Eldar: she's like, what are you doing? What are, where are you? I'm like, I'm still on the fucking, you know how they, they cut through the fucking moments. I'm still thinking through what just happened. Yes. Because it was so interesting to me.

[00:14:21] So I'm processing that Yeah. In my head. And then when, when she 

[00:14:25] Mike: asked me, whatcha you doing? 

[00:14:26] Eldar: I explain this to, to her like, it's a sense 

[00:14:29] Mike: No, but you know what I'm saying? This is part of the reason I don't wanna watch that. Um, love is love's island. Yeah. Because I would like to pause as much as you would like to pause.

[00:14:38] Yeah. But then it's also weird, like you pause it and you're sitting there thinking for yourself. It's a little bit like, yeah. When you watch it with somebody else, you can pause and you can both discuss. Yeah, 

[00:14:47] Katherine: yeah, 

[00:14:47] Mike: yeah. So that's what we do. We do this. 

[00:14:49] Katherine: I never 

[00:14:50] Eldar: feel that 

[00:14:50] Katherine: way. That's why to me it's like, Hey, if you need, means 

[00:14:52] Eldar: you miss a lot of stuff.

[00:14:53] Katherine: If you need a minute, like pause it. You know? Because like, this is a time where he's not on his phone. So I guess I'm 

[00:14:59] Eldar: glued. The reason I'm watching, uh, my, my attention is to the shit. But sometimes there are moments where like they're insightful or whatever, and I'm thinking things through as to why this happened with the psychology behind it.

[00:15:08] Like you said, you know that the next new moments that she's catching that is funny for her or whatever, or insightful for her, she's like, yo, you saw that? I'm like, no, I didn't. I'm somewhere 

[00:15:17] Toliy: else missing. So you're missing most of the show, correct. 

[00:15:19] Katherine: She's missing most of the show. Yes. Yes. While I'm also, but my 

[00:15:23] Eldar: is a completely different reason here.

[00:15:24] You understand this? Sure. I'm watching the show. Then why 

[00:15:26] Katherine: don't 

[00:15:26] Eldar: you 

[00:15:27] Toliy: pause it then. 

[00:15:28] Eldar: Because she's also there. You 

[00:15:30] Katherine: know what I mean? Well, that's what I'm saying. It's like, but, but that's our whole thing. It's like we enjoy the show because most of it is, we make conversation about, we pause and we dissect it, and we talk about it.

[00:15:39] We laugh. That's the whole point 

[00:15:41] Eldar: guys. This whole, this whole testimony of the way we watch our show. I don't give her flack when she's 

[00:15:46] Katherine: on our phone. No, but can I I, the, I haven't said the reason why I brought it up. So the reason why I'm bringing this up is because to me, so I brought it up for a reason.

[00:15:55] Eldar: Give 'em the percentage that you, on 

[00:15:56] Katherine: your phone, please. So, so there's 

[00:15:57] Eldar: be honest, no, I think you have to 

[00:15:59] Katherine: put it like, I, I am not, she's not even aware of it. Listen, 90 not denying it, but I, I wouldn't say no. 

[00:16:05] Eldar: You have to 

[00:16:05] Katherine: phrase it different. If phone the entire time 

[00:16:08] Eldar: per episode. 

[00:16:09] Toliy: I what? Percent of the episode or are you on the phone 

[00:16:13] Katherine: for?

[00:16:13] Like, it's just 

[00:16:14] Eldar: give a 

[00:16:14] Katherine: number. It's not accurate. 

[00:16:15] Eldar: Just throw 

[00:16:16] Katherine: it 90 is not accurate. Okay. Okay. Give a number. And, and just, just to top it off, like, for the past few months, like the past few months I have, I have reduced my Poshmark use exponentially. I, I like never go on the app anymore. So like, I don't do that anymore.

[00:16:31] Eldar: Give him a number. He'll make his own conclusion. 

[00:16:36] Katherine: So you, so you're saying average of every single episode that we watch in general, you think that 90% of each episode? 

[00:16:42] Mike: No, he's, he's talking about if you guys Yeah. Uh, watch shows of those hours watched. Yeah. Not like, like, like of the phone usage during those shows.

[00:16:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:16:53] Mike: Right. Let's say the show is 10 hours. 

[00:16:55] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:16:55] Mike: Of that time. There's five hours spent on the phones. 

[00:16:58] Eldar: Yeah, 

[00:16:58] Mike: combined, 90% of those five hours is yours? Not like the whole tent, not the whole 90% of the whole show. This is what I'm thinking. 

[00:17:05] Katherine: Yeah, like, like I'll just give you an example. We watched something on Netflix last night.

[00:17:08] I didn't grab my phone once, but I did end up falling asleep towards the end. 

[00:17:12] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Well, we'll give you, that happens. That happens 

[00:17:14] Katherine: like most of the time she's 

[00:17:16] Eldar: on the phone. Yeah. 

[00:17:16] Katherine: You know, 

[00:17:17] Eldar: during shows. Okay. 

[00:17:18] Toliy: Most of the time. 

[00:17:19] Eldar: Yes. That's crazy. 

[00:17:20] Katherine: But how is it No, 

[00:17:20] Eldar: no, no, 

[00:17:21] Katherine: no. Tell 

[00:17:22] Eldar: let's get, 

[00:17:22] Katherine: how is it that I, I probably see more of the show than he does.

[00:17:26] 'cause every time I turn around, it's a funny thing. He's like, guys, and I'm for different reason what's going on with you? So this is guys, the whole reason why I brought this up 

[00:17:34] Toliy: around he's, 

[00:17:36] Katherine: he's in, I only brought this up simply because like. When he's not on his phone and he's look and he's watching with me, he's not really there.

[00:17:45] Okay. Question. Question. So when he grabs his phone, I'm like, babe, question. 'cause it's like, okay, now are you not gonna watch anything 

[00:17:50] Eldar: else? Because what I'm extracting the stuff that I'm extracting, she wasn't even sure it's dear. 

[00:17:54] Katherine: Listen, now you, you, you gotta do all that. So we have a thing when we pause and we discuss everything, why aren't you pausing then That's like our whole thing.

[00:18:03] Hold on. 

[00:18:03] Toliy: If there was, if there was a 15, no, but I know what's happening. If there was a 15 question quiz, 

[00:18:07] Katherine: I would say he episode percent of the time, but he's not, 

[00:18:09] Toliy: would get more questions. Right. Between 

[00:18:11] Eldar: what kind of questions are we talking about? No, the thing is things 

[00:18:13] Katherine: totally. I would argue that 90% at the time 

[00:18:18] Toliy: that 

[00:18:18] Eldar: happened would win.

[00:18:18] Katherine: I would've win. 

[00:18:19] Toliy: No relevant things 

[00:18:20] Mike: have happened. What clothes they were wearing shoe would probably 

[00:18:22] Katherine: win. Relevant things that don't be, don't be a joke. I'm gonna throw my shoe at you. You're 

[00:18:25] Mike: basically saying 

[00:18:26] Katherine: don't. Exactly. No. I would argue that 90% of the time you're at LaLaLand. So what's the difference?

[00:18:32] Mike: What's happening is when KA is like not into it, she's like, doesn't really care if you're watching, you're not watching. But those rare, rare, I'm gonna say rare because it say 90 rare moments that she is 

[00:18:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:18:43] Mike: She really wants you to join her. Yes. Because those moments are small. 

[00:18:46] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:18:46] Mike: I agree. So that's 

[00:18:47] Eldar: why her 

[00:18:47] Mike: reaction is that way.

[00:18:48] Eldar: Correct. I agree with this, 

[00:18:50] Katherine: that, and this is what I'm trying to percent accurate. 

[00:18:52] Eldar: This is what I'm trying to say. Yes. Ultimately what I'm trying to say is that I don't, I give her that grace. Yes. Right. I wanna tie this back to 

[00:18:58] Katherine: Joe. No, you don't. You just buried me here saying 90, I 

[00:19:01] Eldar: buried you here as an educational content.

[00:19:03] Katherine: And, and not only that, but he buries me as it's happening too. He's like, 

[00:19:06] Eldar: never 

[00:19:07] Katherine: He'll look at me and say, 

[00:19:07] Eldar: no, never. You 

[00:19:08] Katherine: haven't said baby, you're 

[00:19:09] Eldar: not even watching. Oh my God, this started. Don't lying. Because she started. 

[00:19:13] Mike: Ah, 

[00:19:13] Eldar: you understand? When I do get on that 10% when I get on the phone during a show, oh, I get the heat.

[00:19:19] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:19:19] Eldar: You know what I'm 

[00:19:19] Katherine: saying? We're gonna play game problem island. You're ex, you're on X tweet. Sharing my thoughts. Tweeting or what? Come on. Like, how can you not own up to like your come, I'm doing topic. Come like you, but come on, let's get back. Anyway, 

[00:19:36] Eldar: let's get back to 

[00:19:37] Katherine: it 

[00:19:37] Eldar: guys. Guys, ultimately what we're trying to say and bow tie together and help Joe kind of, sorry, Joe, in these, in these types of moments is the fact that we should extend the grace of the fact that people will, you know, do sometimes things that they need to do.

[00:19:51] Mm-hmm. Even in the moments where maybe your son wants their attention, but you don't, you just don't have it in you. 

[00:19:56] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:57] Eldar: You just don't have it in you. You know what I mean? And I'm not saying that, uh, his wife does this all the time, you know what I mean? I hope she's not doing this all the time. Maybe there's a bigger problem there.

[00:20:06] But if she is, um, I think Joe should, should find a way and challenge himself to be able to give the grace that is necessary. Yeah. In order to maybe one time, one day Right. To finally raise awareness. And that's why I'm gonna bring this back to timing. 

[00:20:21] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:22] Eldar: Right now, this is the timing for that. 

[00:20:24] Mike: Yes. 

[00:20:24] Eldar: You know, I am not here trying to scold Catherine for being on the phone for 90%.

[00:20:29] I'm gonna give her a little jab, but it's gonna be received in a very specific way. Oh, I get the jab guys. I am not, me and her, we're not gonna leave this podcast. Right. Feeling the way Joe was feeling when he was cooking at dinner. Mm-hmm. After the comments that he's made. Yeah. 

[00:20:41] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:20:41] Eldar: That's right. You know what I mean?

[00:20:42] So I think timing is very important. Right. I, I, you guys always say this, that like, I'm good at keeping the receipts and then like when it's necessary, I bring out the hammer. Mm-hmm. So can be an educational hammer versus where it is just static. And then we we're just not talking to each other. We have some kind of a, you know, a, a grudge Yeah.

[00:21:02] A grudge match. 

[00:21:03] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:21:03] Eldar: That's the whole point. 

[00:21:04] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:21:05] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. So I think that especially because, uh, Joe was convinced that after making the comment mm-hmm. He even warned her. He said, Hey, 

[00:21:15] Mike: well that's, that's what leads me more towards, like, it was a frustration play. 

[00:21:18] Eldar: It was a frustration play.

[00:21:19] I agree. And it, I, I would say it's not a smart play. 

[00:21:22] Mike: Yeah. And I think it's probably a recurring thing. That's why mm-hmm. The frustration has grown. 

[00:21:27] Eldar: Well, I think that any time, again, I think that any time, time, specula, I think that anytime that when we, um, like we're very good at this, we're very good at identifying what's quote unquote good for us.

[00:21:38] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:38] Eldar: Right. It is a good idea to give your son undivided attention. Right. Yeah. Or your dog's attention. Right. 

[00:21:45] Mike: Of course. 

[00:21:45] Eldar: When, especially when they're asking for your attention, it's an obvious thing. Or any human attention. I agree with this, you know what I mean? It is a good idea not to be constantly buried in your phone.

[00:21:56] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:56] Eldar: You know, like what Catherine right now is doing. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:59] Katherine: I'm just sharing the cute photo that I, 

[00:22:01] Eldar: you see, but see, because the person will always have a justification. 

[00:22:06] Katherine: Yes. It's true. 

[00:22:06] Eldar: Right. And 

[00:22:07] Katherine: because this for me is, is like, 

[00:22:10] Eldar: is what she needs, 

[00:22:11] Katherine: it's what I need. 

[00:22:11] Eldar: Correct. You know?

[00:22:12] Yeah. Correct. Right. Like, like, I'm gonna go back to the example of Paul Epstein. Mm-hmm. Right. My professor, my philosophy professor. 

[00:22:19] Mike: Yes. 

[00:22:19] Eldar: When I was sitting there ready and willing to listen to what he was saying, and I was like a sponge and I was like, I, I want to hear this shit. I needed to hear that stuff.

[00:22:28] Mm-hmm. In my life, in that moment of my life, 

[00:22:31] Mike: yes. 

[00:22:31] Eldar: Because I was a sponge at that time, but other students in the room were not the same. Sponge did not feel the same way. They didn't do the homework. Right. Kids coming in, there're sleeping in class. 

[00:22:41] Toliy: Mm-hmm. They 

[00:22:43] Eldar: want breaks, I'm sure. Huh. 

[00:22:43] Toliy: They were bricks.

[00:22:44] Eldar: They were bricks. Mm-hmm. They were not sponges. Yeah. So I turn around having this attachment. Now they're like, yo, philosophy is fucking gold. Mm-hmm. Which I still believe so. 

[00:22:54] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:22:54] Eldar: Right. But I don't think any longer the same way I used to think that mm-hmm. It should be shoved down everybody's fucking throats.

[00:22:59] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:23:00] Eldar: But at that moment when I saw somebody sleeping next to me and I wanted to wake them up and say, yo, yo, you're missing the fucking stuff. 

[00:23:06] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:06] Eldar: Paul stopped me from doing that. He said, Hey, Elda, leave them alone. And then after class he talked to me. Mm-hmm. Pulled me to the side and said, Hey, I'm like, like, yo, they're missing Paul.

[00:23:15] What the fuck is going on? You know, like, are you crazy? Are you giving up? He's like, Eldar, whatever they have going on in their life. Mm-hmm. Um, they need the sleep. They're sleep deprived. And even if they were awake, if you woke them up, they would not be able to retain anything that, that, that I'm saying.

[00:23:29] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:23:30] Eldar: And that hit me. 

[00:23:31] Toliy: That's 

[00:23:31] Eldar: right. I'm like, oh shit. Right. This is an actual person who understands this whole fucking scenario, what's actually going on. And it made sense. 

[00:23:38] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:23:39] Eldar: And that's what's going on here. 

[00:23:40] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:41] Eldar: That, yeah. Sure. Catherine should be sitting here glued to me, listening to what I'm saying, because there's words of wisdom being, being shared here.

[00:23:47] But no, but Catherine has a DHD and all this other fucking shit that she pinned upon herself that's gonna require her to be on her phone and do the cute, cute stuff in order to relieve anxiety or whatever it is that she's trying to relieve. 

[00:23:58] Mike: Ka do you miss the days you'd lost your cell phone or no? 

[00:24:02] Eldar: No, 

[00:24:04] Katherine: I don't miss it.

[00:24:06] Mike: But if you reflect on it versus like all the years of a d ding, and then you had that break of no phone, like. Was that like a side of release? She did reflect on it 

[00:24:14] Eldar: and 

[00:24:14] Mike: said, 

[00:24:14] Katherine: yeah, that was very good. I, I did reflect, reflect on, on it, and then I had peace and I, and the, the, the constant, you know, um, notifications, emails.

[00:24:23] Did it bring like the 

[00:24:23] Mike: things 

[00:24:23] Katherine: today, like ad stuff 

[00:24:25] Mike: or? 

[00:24:25] Eldar: It's, 

[00:24:25] Katherine: but, but you know what, like, distraction is distraction. So if I'm not distracting myself on my phone, I'm, I distract myself in other, 

[00:24:31] Eldar: yeah. We were very good at finding, at distractions. Distractions that we need. Okay. And I think that's not a bad thing.

[00:24:35] Yeah. So 

[00:24:36] Katherine: it was good. I 

[00:24:37] Eldar: don't think it's a bad thing. I 

[00:24:37] Katherine: liked 

[00:24:38] Joe: it, 

[00:24:38] but 

[00:24:38] Eldar: Yeah. You know, you know. Mm-hmm. And because of the fact that most of the time we're depleted, we're gonna take away from the things that we've adopted into our lives, our pets, our friends, you know what I mean? Our kids, this is gonna happen.

[00:24:51] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:24:51] Eldar: You know, so there's a bigger problem that might be happening behind the scenes where maybe as, as a family, they're depleted. And you said that Joe's a little bit tired, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's having a hard time with managing it all because of everything. 

[00:25:02] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:25:02] Eldar: You 

[00:25:02] Mike: know, 

[00:25:03] Eldar: and, 

[00:25:04] Katherine: and it's also natural to wanna reach out to her friend, you know?

[00:25:07] Yeah. Alana was texting a friend. Of course. Maybe she, she needed that conversation. She, 

[00:25:10] Eldar: she might, might have 

[00:25:11] Katherine: needed that 

[00:25:12] Mike: conversation. 

[00:25:12] Katherine: Maybe she is, you know. 

[00:25:13] Mike: Correct. 

[00:25:13] Katherine: And that's okay. 

[00:25:14] Mike: But I think like, um, what you're saying is exactly, exactly like what it is, is the depletion, is the thing. Um, when we like, uh, decide to engage in whatever we decide to engage in, whether it's like watching a TV show or, you know, starting a family obviously very far from each other.

[00:25:32] Yeah. Like much more responsibility coming into it in a way, I guess knowing what to expect. Right. And also like doing it for the right reasons. Right? Like Yeah. If you and Kat watching the show and you only started watching it because she asked you to, but you're not really into it. 

[00:25:48] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:25:48] Mike: You're not gonna watch it.

[00:25:49] Eldar: That's right. 

[00:25:50] Mike: Right. 

[00:25:50] Eldar: True. 

[00:25:51] Mike: So it's like you, I think sometimes things happen where people kind of go along for stuff that they don't really want to get involved in. 

[00:25:57] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:25:57] Mike: You know? 

[00:25:57] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:25:58] Mike: Go 

[00:25:58] Eldar: to. A lot of times, 

[00:25:59] Mike: a lot of times this 

[00:26:00] Eldar: happens, a lot of times underlying relationships, underlying resentment starts to build.

[00:26:03] Mike: Yes. 

[00:26:04] Eldar: You know what I mean? And like I said, that I think that in Joe's case, as we know Joe, to be more of a straight edge army guy. 

[00:26:10] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:11] Eldar: Right? I think that he sets strict rules. 

[00:26:13] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:26:14] Eldar: And those strict rules were not, when you're not abiding by those strict rules sometimes. Mm-hmm. But those come back biting you in the ass because they're so hard to, to sustain.

[00:26:23] Mike: Well, I think, yeah, the conflict of like, uh, is what's happening is that there are strict rules. Right. And I think, let's say Joe, he, I do feel like he's straight edge as well, obviously. Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:33] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:26:34] Mike: But I think a lot of his personality is that he also likes to have fun, let loose and like do things. So I think there's like, maybe there's a conflict.

[00:26:41] Yeah. There 

[00:26:42] Eldar: is a 

[00:26:43] Mike: conflict there. A 

[00:26:43] Eldar: hundred percent. 

[00:26:44] Mike: It like, yeah. That's 

[00:26:45] Katherine: interesting. 

[00:26:45] Mike: Interesting. His rules don't actually match who he is. I know him as a silly, goofy guy. Yeah. Like 

[00:26:50] he 

[00:26:50] Katherine: likes to have fun. That's a 

[00:26:50] Eldar: huge part. Well, yeah, that's the, that's the kid and that's the kid that I grew up with. Yeah.

[00:26:53] Yeah. And I know, you know what 

[00:26:56] Katherine: I mean? That's the thing. But remember, in high school, you, you always make the joke of how he like, 

[00:26:58] Eldar: ah, he was raising his hand like this, his 

[00:26:59] Katherine: hand like almost in a very, 

[00:27:00] Eldar: yeah. Like he wasn't back in the communist Russian country, you know what I mean? Or North Korea, you know?

[00:27:05] Yeah. Very proper, you know? Yeah. So, yeah. So I think there is a battle between that. Not, I wouldn't say good and bad. No. Just, but there is a battle between different sides of his personality, internal identity conflict between like, what, what should we be taking seriously? What should, what should we not taking seriously think 

[00:27:20] Mike: that's like also a huge part of like, uh 

[00:27:21] Eldar: mm-hmm.

[00:27:22] Mike: Also relationships where people 

[00:27:23] Eldar: 100% 

[00:27:24] Mike: like, um, even just watching this last season. 

[00:27:27] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:27:27] Mike: You know, the stuff that obviously we see is not the full picture. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. But when you see people like quote unquote falling in love, you are like, wait, this is your foundation that you're calling love.

[00:27:39] Eldar: Yeah, yeah. Right. You quickly see that that's not gonna last. 

[00:27:42] Mike: And that's ultimately what it is. People like calling things for what they're not. Yeah. And they're not actually getting, drawing energy from those things. Correct. So, yeah, it's like. 

[00:27:53] Katherine: As an old friend used to say perception is reality. 

[00:27:56] Mike: Oh my God.

[00:27:56] Katherine: Yes. When, when, when we watched that show, we're just like shocked, you know? Yeah, yeah. Different perceptions of what things need to be. 

[00:28:03] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:28:04] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:28:04] Eldar: And I think that, um, the better we define these types of things, right? Take our time to actually define and really pay attention to some of these rigid, um, contracts that we constantly, uh, put ourselves against.

[00:28:16] Mm-hmm. Right. We quickly find out that like they can't apply in real life and it is very hard to make them stick on a daily day, day-to-day basis. 

[00:28:25] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:25] Eldar: You know what I mean? 

[00:28:26] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:28:27] Eldar: Didn't we agree that we shouldn't be on our phones when we're raising our son? Well, yeah, but like, you know, that's very difficult to do, to 

[00:28:34] upkeep 

[00:28:35] Toliy: For sure.

[00:28:35] Eldar: To upkeep that, you know what I mean? Because as we know, phones now are a crutch. Our crutch. Mm-hmm. Just like alcohol is our crutch. Yeah. Just like, I don't know, it could be sex or drugs or whatever. Gambling, gambling, gambling, gambling, anything. Gaming everything. Gaming. Yeah. 

[00:28:51] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:28:51] Eldar: Any of these things that might seem to a naked eye is like, alright, they're like, he's overdoing it or whatever.

[00:28:57] Well, there's a reason why those people overdoing it. There's a reason why they're doing that. They need that to be able to relieve themselves somehow. Yeah. You know? Um, yeah. 

[00:29:07] Katherine: So can I ask you guys a question then? Do you think that he took the wrong approach? 

[00:29:13] Eldar: Absolutely. 

[00:29:13] Katherine: Because I mean, like with the way he, it warrants a conversation.

[00:29:16] Like if he's feeling a certain type of way, I think the right thing to do is to talk to her about it. Um, the thing is, he went with the, was the timing wrong? 

[00:29:22] Eldar: He went with the scolding part. Right? He did not. 

[00:29:24] Katherine: Okay. 

[00:29:25] Eldar: He did not pull her to the side. It was in the moment. 

[00:29:27] Katherine: It was, yeah. I guess it's the timing. 

[00:29:29] The 

[00:29:29] Eldar: timing 

[00:29:29] Katherine: in the moment is always like maybe the wrong time.

[00:29:31] 'cause like it's happening and you have an expectation. 

[00:29:34] Eldar: Correct. When he's in the middle of something, he's cooking, his hands are tied 

[00:29:37] Katherine: up, he might be a little bit already frustrated. 

[00:29:39] Eldar: He's already maybe like tired or whatever. Yes. Maybe the food is burning or whatever. Yes. Yes. And you have, you have your son pulling and your pants like that.

[00:29:44] Yeah. Play with me. 

[00:29:45] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:45] Eldar: You know what I mean? And obviously you've already made a quick judgment to say like, he wants to play, I'm busy cooking for the family. 

[00:29:53] Katherine: Yeah. Right. 

[00:29:53] Eldar: You're sitting on the phone over there on the couch, 

[00:29:56] Katherine: chatting with your 

[00:29:56] Eldar: friend. Chatting with your friend. What the fuck? That's a quick judgment call.

[00:29:59] Katherine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:30:00] Eldar: You know what I mean? And that can all spiral real quick where you're like, alright, I'm right. She's wrong. Uh, it's time to scold. 

[00:30:06] Katherine: Yeah. Okay. 

[00:30:08] Eldar: Where I, I've spoken to Joe many times about timing, you know, and, and how to properly address these types of things. Especially the little, these little buildups.

[00:30:15] Mike: Oh yeah. 

[00:30:15] Eldar: You know, um, but I think that the whole maybe structure or that that contract, that that verbal contract that they had together is a little bit flawed and a little bit too rigid. In a dynamic where, like I said, phones do serve a certain type of purpose as well. You know, we do need to lose ourselves sometimes in them, and it's perfectly fine.

[00:30:35] You know, I don't think she's doing that on purpose, just like, I don't think Joe was doing that on purpose when he was given the bath to him. You know what I mean? When he was on it. 

[00:30:42] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:30:43] Eldar: Because she quickly pulled those receipts as well. We all will always justify our dual. 

[00:30:47] Katherine: I, I also think that it's almost like you almost have to expect that, like, if you're gonna set a rule like that and you're gonna impose it and say, Hey, you know what?

[00:30:54] Like he wants to play with you, or he needs attention, like, put your phone away. He, he'd better follow that rule too, because Oh, he would have to follow that rule 110% of the time. Even, even more because it's like, wait, you're calling, calling me out. Like, you better do the same thing. She cannot 

[00:31:09] Eldar: misstep.

[00:31:09] Katherine: Right? Yeah. Like, almost that becomes like the, the expectation reversed. Correct. You know? Correct. Yeah. Correct. 

[00:31:15] Eldar: Because you can't be caught as a hypocrite. 

[00:31:16] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:31:18] Eldar: Right. 

[00:31:18] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:31:19] Eldar: You say, baby, oh, I don't want to, I don't wanna waste this food. All the food in the fridge is expired. 

[00:31:23] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:25] Katherine: All the food in the fridge is expired, 

[00:31:28] Eldar: you know what I'm saying?

[00:31:29] I don't like wasting food. She says, 

[00:31:31] Mike: yeah, 

[00:31:33] Eldar: well, I gotta eat the old stuff. Most of the shit in the fridge is expired. 

[00:31:36] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:37] Eldar: Like, what are we doing here? 

[00:31:39] Katherine: Yeah. My brain is expired sometimes, 

[00:31:40] Eldar: you know, you know what I'm saying? 

[00:31:41] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:31:42] Eldar: You can't make those outlandish statements that you can't hold yourself to it.

[00:31:47] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:31:48] Eldar: You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:48] Katherine: So I should say I love wasting food. I don't 

[00:31:51] Eldar: love 

[00:31:51] Katherine: it. No, 

[00:31:51] Eldar: I, I think that you should, you should refrain from speaking. 

[00:31:54] Katherine: Okay. 

[00:31:54] Eldar: I, I think you should refrain from, um, definitions, 

[00:31:57] Katherine: making those, uh, 

[00:31:58] Eldar: yeah. You know, those definitions a lot of the times box ourselves in mm-hmm. Into a very specific identity.

[00:32:05] Yeah. And that identity is very hard to break when, when you start becoming aware that the identity is rooted in pain. 

[00:32:12] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:14] Eldar: You know what I mean? But you already set yourself up. I have a DHD, I'm allergic to cats. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, when's the last time you came across a cat and you got allergic reaction?

[00:32:23] I don't remember. 

[00:32:24] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:24] Eldar: You allergic to cats though. You know what I mean? Like those kinds of things. So you start playing out a very old tune for yourself that this is who I am, that I'm very rigid. I can't come out of this box. I can never evolve. I can never be better. You know what I mean? 

[00:32:38] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:39] Eldar: How long you want to, you know, how long you want to be this for, this is not the truth of the matter.

[00:32:42] We're constantly evolving, 

[00:32:44] Toliy: you 

[00:32:44] Eldar: know, so you have to be very careful making these types of announcements, I think. 

[00:32:51] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:32:52] Eldar: On making these kind of social contracts with yourself and your, and your loved ones. 

[00:32:56] Mike: Yeah, for sure. 

[00:32:57] Eldar: About trying to like, establish very rigid rules and stuff about life because they're not sustainable.

[00:33:03] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:04] Eldar: It's very difficult, you know? 

[00:33:07] Toliy: Yeah. And it only, um, creates a conflict. 

[00:33:10] Eldar: It does, 

[00:33:11] Katherine: yeah. 

[00:33:11] Toliy: And resentment 

[00:33:12] Eldar: it's supposed to, the conflict is baked in, into the thing. 

[00:33:15] Toliy: Yeah. So then it sounds more like you should never make any rules, but more just talk about values, for example. 

[00:33:21] Eldar: Yes. Correct. 

[00:33:23] Toliy: Right. 

[00:33:23] Eldar: However, yes.

[00:33:24] With the asterisk that, look, that's a good idea. But is it sustainable, for example, right? The val the value. 

[00:33:31] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:32] Eldar: I would like to behave this way, but will I have a slip ups? Absolutely. I'm human. And that, that part right there is where you allow for grace, uh, from the other individual to, uh, to shine through.

[00:33:44] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:33:45] Eldar: Gimme the grace. When I proposed to Katherine, I said, B, like, you already know what's going on. You know, like, you don't like a messy house or whatever. Like, I throw my socks down. I like, don't expect for somebody different here. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like, expect exactly what you see and what you're getting.

[00:34:00] Yeah. Just because we're married to have a title, there's not gonna be these monumental changes. We could try to work on certain things. 

[00:34:06] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:06] Eldar: But habits are habits. 

[00:34:07] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:34:08] Katherine: That's a, that was a very fair speech. I think everyone should live by that because it's really the truth. 

[00:34:13] Eldar: Yeah. Because it's the 

[00:34:13] Katherine: truth.

[00:34:13] Yeah. 

[00:34:14] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:14] Katherine: Like, sure, your partner can inspire you to like, make positive change, but like, 

[00:34:18] Eldar: yeah. 

[00:34:19] Katherine: No one just becomes completely different just because your partner expects mm-hmm. You to be, you know, that way, 

[00:34:26] Eldar: you know, 

[00:34:27] Katherine: it's very realistic, 

[00:34:29] Eldar: but everyone lives by these social contracts that they made up in their heads.

[00:34:32] It's true, 

[00:34:32] Mike: but it's, 

[00:34:33] Eldar: um, 

[00:34:34] Mike: it's like, um, the reason people create these like, uh, disciplined prisons 

[00:34:39] Eldar: mm-hmm. Discipline prisons. 

[00:34:40] Mike: Yeah. I like that. It's super necessary for them. 

[00:34:44] Eldar: No, no, no. Say why, 

[00:34:45] Mike: why? Well, it's super necessary for them because they. The person who makes them forgets that they're a bullshitter at the core.

[00:34:58] Eldar: I, I think that that person in that moment is having a righteous moment. 

[00:35:02] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:35:02] Eldar: Okay. Where they wanna hold themselves to the highest standard Inspired Inspired moment. Inspired moment. 

[00:35:07] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:35:07] Eldar: And they're like, yo, that'd be nice. You know what I mean? In the reality, let me push this up. Yeah. Let me push this on, on my partner, on other people or on myself, or myself.

[00:35:15] Myself. 

[00:35:15] Mike: Yeah. The big one 

[00:35:16] Eldar: is 

[00:35:16] Mike: the start 

[00:35:16] Eldar: yourself and next thing you know, you're like, yo, I'm fucking drinking two gallons of water every day. 

[00:35:20] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:35:20] Eldar: What the fuck am I doing this for? I'm not, my stomach doesn't even feel good. 

[00:35:22] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:35:23] Eldar: You know what I mean? Next thing you know, you're fucking working out at five in the morning or whatever.

[00:35:27] Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:27] Mike: But 

[00:35:27] Eldar: you don't even feel good from it. 

[00:35:28] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:35:30] Eldar: Because you came up with some ideas. 

[00:35:31] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:35:32] Eldar: That don't actually reflect of like self sustainability. 

[00:35:34] Mike: Yeah. You have to know self-love. You have to know yourself. 

[00:35:36] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:35:36] Mike: You have like, and that's obviously very, very hard thing to do. Nobody said you have to wake up at five in the morning to be like a gym guy.

[00:35:43] You can also wake up at 10 and get the gym done, done, or get whatever you need to get done. 

[00:35:47] Eldar: Well, that's the issue, right? 

[00:35:49] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:35:49] Eldar: Um, 

[00:35:50] Mike: but that's like saying people don't know themselves. But that's like just a general vast, tremendous like thing 

[00:35:55] Eldar: that, well, we don't, that's why I think a lot of times we get brainwashed into somebody else's quote unquote.

[00:35:59] Good ideas. 

[00:36:00] Toliy: Oh yeah. I think I, I, I, I, I think in general, how life currently works, is that like, um, you're, you're always following what someone else has already done or some kind of outline that has already been done for you. I don't think there's like any kind of promotion on like. Um, looking within or figuring out some, something on your own, you know, like you're always like, okay, well, like, for example, like, here's a school system, right?

[00:36:29] Mm-hmm. This has been around for X amount of time, you're gonna get enrolled in this. 

[00:36:32] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:33] Toliy: And like, 

[00:36:33] Eldar: follow it. 

[00:36:34] Toliy: Sure. At some point you get to choose like, you know, some electives, right. Or just like some di different things, but for the most part you're, you know, pretty strict like a course, right? As to like mm-hmm.

[00:36:43] What math you're gonna learn. Like, like history, English. Yeah. Like writing. Um, the curriculum is already set. Yeah. Right? So you're just following that. Um, so I, I don't think that you're ever taught to like, 

[00:36:55] Eldar: critically think 

[00:36:56] Toliy: Yeah. Critically think and like a way to figure out what do you actually like or don't like, or what works for you, what, what doesn't work?

[00:37:03] Because you also, um, follow for a long time, like attachment, you know? Mm-hmm. When you follow your attachments for a long time, they're, they're, they're usually linked to what someone else has already done. So maybe it's like financial success in something and someone did it a particular way, like a, a allegedly, right.

[00:37:22] By waking up early, for example. 

[00:37:24] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:25] Toliy: By, yeah. Eating a certain way, doing things a certain way. You just try to do everything that you can to fit that mold. But, um, you, you constantly find, I think that you don't fit that mold, which is then why you need to use discipline 

[00:37:40] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:37:40] Toliy: To fit yourself in there.

[00:37:43] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. So how did Joe become so rigid? Should we call him? We can, we shut 

[00:37:51] Toliy: down. Let's call him. Can you answer what, so how, how would you have handled that situation? 

[00:37:58] Eldar: Um, 

[00:37:59] Katherine: yeah, I guess that was my question just few minutes ago. Like, 

[00:38:02] Eldar: I think that I would 

[00:38:03] Katherine: How would you handle that then? 

[00:38:03] Eldar: Well, the end of end of it, right?

[00:38:05] What happened was, I think she was still on her phone and then he ended up putting it on the tv. Mm. He used the TV as a crutch, 

[00:38:12] Katherine: but he didn't like a, which that's why he didn't want, he didn't wanna turn, turn the TV on for the baby. 

[00:38:17] Eldar: Didn't I would've done that. I would've done that from the jump. 

[00:38:19] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:38:20] Eldar: You know what I mean?

[00:38:21] I would've put him in front of the tv like, yo, we are busy right now. Mom's busy. Yeah. Dad's busy. TV is our babysitter, 

[00:38:27] Katherine: but here's the tv. But here's the thing, but here's the thing. Like, 

[00:38:29] Eldar: but, but, but if you Yeah. If you 

[00:38:30] Katherine: preemtively Yes. His values already not turning the TV on for the baby. Correct. Correct.

[00:38:34] Or they're, they're, 

[00:38:34] Eldar: that's where they're 

[00:38:35] Katherine: attached. They're agreed upon values. 

[00:38:36] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:38:37] Katherine: So that's where the frustration comes in. And like, it becomes 

[00:38:39] Eldar: hard to put 

[00:38:40] Katherine: on the tv. We're not adhering to our 

[00:38:42] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:38:42] Katherine: To our values sets. 

[00:38:44] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:38:44] Katherine: That's what, yeah. That's 

[00:38:45] Eldar: why 'cause they're rigid. That's why I said, when did he become so rigid to say that the TV is banned?

[00:38:51] You know what I mean? But it's also my sister has this too. 

[00:38:54] Katherine: Yeah, I know. I know. 

[00:38:54] Eldar: Yeah. This is huge. You know what I mean? But it's not sustainable. They, that we see in front of the TV all the time. 

[00:38:59] Mike: Yeah, of course. 

[00:39:00] Eldar: On the tablet that is of regular shit. 

[00:39:02] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:39:03] Eldar: Like all the parents. I 

[00:39:04] Mike: think you're defeated by this.

[00:39:05] Yeah. 

[00:39:06] Toliy: Yeah. Because it's so easy. Like 

[00:39:07] Eldar: it's so easy. You turn 

[00:39:08] Toliy: on one 

[00:39:09] Eldar: thing and kids really like it. 

[00:39:10] Toliy: Kids could be glued forever. Glued forever. 

[00:39:11] Mike: Yeah. But if he, but if he wanted to stick to his principles, why couldn't he stop cooking? 

[00:39:17] Eldar: Well, because, because then, 'cause he's gotta feed the family because then you have to say that he actually don't have his own shit together, right?

[00:39:22] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:23] Eldar: Throughout the day and how everything's scheduled out. Yeah. Right. In order to then have the proper, you know, attention to wherever he needs to be, you know, wherever his attention needs to be divided. He, he, he's not, he's not doing it sustainably then. 

[00:39:34] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:39:35] Katherine: Or I, you know what I mean? I would think that he's probably timing it so that when his wife comes home and she can spend time with the baby.

[00:39:43] Yeah. Now that frees him up to be able to cook the meal because, you know, while you're cooking, the baby's probably asking for your attention and things like that. Correct. So you probably wait until you have the second parent to like, take that attention for the baby. Correct. So you can have your own time to 

[00:39:58] Eldar: Correct.

[00:39:59] Katherine: To do a 

[00:39:59] Eldar: chores. So there's a constant flow that needs to be met. 

[00:40:01] Katherine: Yes. 

[00:40:02] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Perfect flow in order to be met, in order to sustain all those little things. Right. Like it starts with, it could have started with we eat dinner at 7:00 PM 

[00:40:10] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[00:40:11] Eldar: And we eat dinner, and we cook dinner, we don't order because that's also bad.

[00:40:15] Yes. So that's another value system, right? Yeah. Yeah. Ordering is bad. So I'll cook a healthy meal. 

[00:40:20] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:21] Eldar: So it could have started from a healthy meal, quote unquote. 

[00:40:24] Mike: True. 

[00:40:24] Eldar: Right? 

[00:40:24] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:40:25] Eldar: We have to cook. We agreed upon this. That's contract number one. Number two, we have to cook by 7:00 PM not later because we don't wanna get fat.

[00:40:34] That's number two. 

[00:40:35] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:36] Eldar: You know what I mean? We don't want to get fat because we want to look a certain type of way. That's three. You know what I mean? Like there's all the stuff that might be baked in into it, you know? Of course. So all that stuff has to be met, met, checked, checkmarked in your head.

[00:40:49] Mm-hmm. Yeah. In order for you to get what? Peace. 

[00:40:52] Katherine: Also, parents fall asleep, like typically earlier. 'cause babies have like their own 

[00:40:55] Eldar: schedule, 

[00:40:56] Katherine: sleeping schedule and it's usually very early. 

[00:40:58] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:40:58] Katherine: So they probably go to sleep early. 

[00:40:59] Eldar: Correct. Yeah. So all those things play. Yes. So many things have to be accounted for.

[00:41:03] Katherine: Yes. 

[00:41:03] Eldar: So what's happening is that you created a, a very specific pressure in your mind. 

[00:41:08] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:41:08] Eldar: That is. It's probably already flying, so subconsciously that you don't even know. Right. So you don't have the time to think things through when they do come, come your way. You don't sit there like, why is this happening?

[00:41:19] You know what I mean? Like, well, you didn't think things through, that's why this is happening. 

[00:41:22] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:23] Eldar: You know? So I'm saying like, it could have been even further. I don't know what the plans were. You know what? Yeah. But if the values are, we have to cook dinner because it's healthy. It has to be by 7:00 PM I'm doing it.

[00:41:32] Therefore you with the child. Yeah. You know, but something might've came up, but we didn't think about that. So like TV is not allowed. 

[00:41:39] Katherine: Yeah. Like, 

[00:41:40] Eldar: but TV can do the trick. 

[00:41:41] Katherine: This reminds me a lot of like the things that I go through on my, like at home as well. You own 

[00:41:47] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:41:47] Katherine: I set up all these little things trapped.

[00:41:48] Yeah. And you've, you've challenged me so much on the, 

[00:41:50] Eldar: you can't even make a decision 

[00:41:51] Katherine: between caused my own suffering 

[00:41:52] Eldar: between going at eight or nine. Like you're like, what the 

[00:41:54] Katherine: hell's going, going on? Yeah. Like I'll get trapped. Even just planning my day around certain things. Like it's un unreal. 

[00:41:59] Eldar: Yeah. That 

[00:41:59] Mike: it's 

[00:41:59] Katherine: unbelievable.

[00:42:00] Mike: That's the indecisiveness, which is also like a, oh 

[00:42:02] Katherine: was 

[00:42:02] Eldar: a, it crazy's a trap because of the fact that you've, 

[00:42:04] Katherine: it's a trap 

[00:42:05] Eldar: created all these little things. Mm-hmm. Contracts within yourself. 

[00:42:08] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:42:09] Eldar: And now they're playing against you. 

[00:42:10] Mike: Yeah. The thing is, the trap is because you are always creating these contracts, but you're not like, true to true.

[00:42:17] You actually dunno who you are. You are like, alright, tomorrow morning I'm gonna wake up and go to the gym. But you are like, not a morning person. Why you setting this up? Yeah. Like, why did you do the first place? You know? Or like, tomorrow I'm gonna, you know, 

[00:42:26] Toliy: but why do, why do you think that that happens?

[00:42:29] Mike: Uh, because it's like a cry, I think for help. In a 

[00:42:32] Toliy: way, but like, if you're not a morning person, but then you commit to going to the gym in the morning because you heard somewhere that going to the gym in the morning is, is healthy for you? 

[00:42:39] Mike: No, it's, it's, I think it's like a, it's like a, you have a moment of reflection.

[00:42:45] You, you realize that you're not happy, like, and you need something desperate. And what do you reach for? You reach for things that you heard that work for other pe other people. So it's like a desperate, I feel like it's a desperate cry for help because you caught a moment of like, you are low and you need something to bring you outta that low.

[00:43:02] And it doesn't, you're not setting it like for, you're not checking against the truth standard. Like a standard of, Hey, this actually true is actually doable. You're just doing it because you need to come outta the funk. It's like a, it's a maybe a pain reliever. Well, the last podcast you 

[00:43:17] Eldar: said, uh, most people don't plan for like, uh, ascending themselves.

[00:43:22] Right. They don't do that. Most of the time people operate out of putting out the fires. 

[00:43:27] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:43:27] Eldar: That's a fire, that's a fire. You constantly just putting out fires. 

[00:43:29] Mike: Yeah. It's a, this is the same thing. 

[00:43:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:43:32] Mike: Yeah. You're, you are depressed. You have a fire. 

[00:43:34] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:43:34] Mike: You need something to like say, oh, tomorrow like this, I'm going to, you get a quick motivation.

[00:43:38] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:43:38] Mike: You boost your levels. 

[00:43:39] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:43:40] Mike: Dopamine, science, whatever's happening, you, you calm yourself down for that moment and then tomorrow you, you're not in the same fire. You're like, oh, it's a new day. I slept on it. Like, wait, 

[00:43:48] Toliy: what's, what's so bad about this Then? 

[00:43:50] Eldar: Like, it's not the bad. It's not Yeah. You can do whatever the fuck you want.

[00:43:54] Yeah. The, the problem is you have a, uh, an internal tor turmoil. Then you, you can't, you can't do anything. You're just paralyzed. 

[00:44:03] Mike: I think you then become a bullshitter. Your whole life is, oh yeah, tomorrow I'll do this. I don't wanna do it. Okay, tomorrow I'll do this. Nah, I don't wanna do it. And you, your whole life, never, you 

[00:44:10] Eldar: know 

[00:44:11] Mike: anything.

[00:44:11] Yeah. You indecisive You can't like decide. Yeah. You don't have an, you're 

[00:44:15] Eldar: paralyzed, you internally paralyzed. Like Catherine says, I'm just paralyzed. I can't even like, make a decision on anything. Yeah. Because like, I'm just all over the place. There's so many reasons to not reason to reason to not reason.

[00:44:25] Yeah. And like, she just keeps going. Yeah. And it's a, a never ending loop. 

[00:44:29] Katherine: It's, it's a, 

[00:44:29] Eldar: it's a constant. You don't remember being like that. 

[00:44:31] Katherine: You, you do this. 

[00:44:31] Eldar: No, 

[00:44:32] Katherine: no, you do this. No, I do. 

[00:44:33] Eldar: I'm just, 

[00:44:34] Katherine: I have to agree with Mike on the, on like the, I guess it's almost like battling depression. Like I did this today, for example.

[00:44:41] Today I woke up and I exercised in the morning and I realized that my day went really well. I ate better, I felt better. So my plan today, so today I will plan, like, I'd like to do the same thing tomorrow. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I would like to have a day Yeah. Where I, I feel good. Yeah. Because for most of the days I don't feel good.

[00:44:59] Yeah. So today felt good. I would like to repeat that. Yeah. It's a dopamine chase. It's a wanting to chase that. Like, I wanna feel good again. I don't wanna feel like shit like yesterday. Yeah. I wanna feel good like I did today. 

[00:45:11] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:45:11] Katherine: And then you become, you know, just trying to patch things up. That way 

[00:45:16] Eldar: you're trying to set your whole day up Yes.

[00:45:18] In such a way, perfect way that you're gonna get that result. 

[00:45:21] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:22] Eldar: Why? Well, because one, one, when you finally felt that, you are like, oh shit, I feel good about this. Mm-hmm. Like, I like it again. Like, 

[00:45:29] Katherine: this felt good. Yes. 

[00:45:31] Eldar: I'd like 

[00:45:31] Katherine: to repeat 

[00:45:31] Eldar: it. So you, so when that happens, you find, you find, you are like, oh shit, finally I found the thing.

[00:45:36] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:37] Eldar: And what happens when you find the thing you, you develop an attachment to that thing. Yeah. You 

[00:45:43] Toliy: see, I, I, I don't even think it's that to, to me, what, what Ka is describing when, when she's saying it to me, like the way that it's resonating, I guess with, with me is that it feels like it's, it's a, it's, it's a anti-anxiety, um, response.

[00:45:57] Eldar: What is 

[00:45:58] Toliy: like the way that Ka just described, okay, I did this, this, and this and this, and this led to me having a good day. Now I want this again. Mm-hmm. Where I feel like if you don't, if, if she doesn't plan, for example, like that of, of what's next 

[00:46:12] Mike: mm-hmm. 

[00:46:12] Toliy: Anxiety happens. Because there's uncertainty now.

[00:46:16] Mike: Oh yeah. That's 

[00:46:17] Toliy: when 

[00:46:17] Mike: you, that's 

[00:46:17] Toliy: what 

[00:46:17] Mike: I'm saying it 

[00:46:18] Toliy: using d 

[00:46:18] Mike: own words, I think 

[00:46:19] Toliy: kind of way. It, it, it, during that timeframe, it creates, it, it, 

[00:46:23] Eldar: it makes you feel like you have a cer certainty that things are gonna be good attachment. Mm-hmm. She builds an attachment to her process because she felt what she felt based on what she did, therefore she attached herself to like, I gotta do this same process in order to get the same result.

[00:46:39] Toliy: Yeah. But I, I, I, I, I just feel like it's, it is, it's like coming from a, a, uh, anxious place of not wanting to feel uncertainty. I'm 

[00:46:48] Eldar: not arguing. I'm not arguing where it's coming from. 

[00:46:50] Toliy: Oh, okay. 

[00:46:50] Eldar: I'm arguing for the result. It's, it's, it's creating 

[00:46:56] Toliy: the result, the, um, result it's creating is a non-anxious, like the feeling of a non-anxious state.

[00:47:04] Eldar: Right. Well, sure. She felt good. 

[00:47:07] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:47:07] Eldar: And now what happens? No, but I Are you now what? I think you're arguing, you wanna feel good. Correct. So what happens? You become anxious about needing to recreate that same pattern. 

[00:47:17] Toliy: Well, 

[00:47:17] Eldar: yes. In a very specific way. 

[00:47:18] Toliy: You're not stuck in that, in, in, in that non-planned way.

[00:47:21] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:47:21] Toliy: Because the, yeah. Like, mm-hmm. 

[00:47:22] Eldar: So, so her problem is not, not doing these things, you know, to doing these things. Actually, her problem is actually making sure that these things get done. 

[00:47:31] Toliy: Yeah. I feel like her, her, her problem in, in this example to, to me at least, is that like she's uncomfortable with like a non-planned like.

[00:47:39] Eldar: Well, 

[00:47:39] Toliy: yeah. Schedule almost, right? Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:41] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:47:41] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:47:41] Katherine: See, the thing is like, 

[00:47:42] Toliy: because she automatically not 

[00:47:43] Katherine: having, 

[00:47:43] Toliy: feel that things will go bad if this doesn't, 

[00:47:45] Katherine: if you 

[00:47:45] Toliy: don't do it 

[00:47:46] Katherine: correct. And no, no plan. And like no routine has not like, uh, hasn't really like, worked out well. Mm-hmm. And like my therapist has, um, like, uh, you know, uh, you know, I've spoken to, you know, like Heather or Hadas and, and they both have recommended like, Hey, like you might benefit from having a routine, like having some structure in your day will help get you out of this, like, overwhelm of your day.

[00:48:13] Like, you know, and like, kind of like get you out of it and then just allow you to kind of just like, I 

[00:48:19] Toliy: mean, but the issue is that I feel like doing that. I, I, I think over time it, it, it almost program programs you into being like a non-thinking correct robot. 

[00:48:28] Eldar: Thank you. And then you can't navigate your way, your mind 

[00:48:31] Katherine: you, but this is what we're talking about.

[00:48:32] How about this? I, I'm constantly frying my brain and I be like, I'm constantly getting to that result anyway. 

[00:48:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:48:39] Katherine: Whether I have the, the routine or because I don't like, it's because 

[00:48:42] Eldar: you're 

[00:48:42] Katherine: not cha ultimate it's 

[00:48:43] Eldar: there anyway. Ultimately, because ultimately as you're not being challenged as to what actually gonna empower you to be a thinking being.

[00:48:50] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:48:50] Eldar: Is it, 

[00:48:50] Toliy: is it 

[00:48:51] Eldar: you're being, you're being forced into a discipline routine. Yes. In order to extract something 

[00:48:55] Toliy: in, in order to, to not think. 

[00:48:56] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:48:57] Mike: Is it a, is it like, um, I, I had a thought. Is it like a. Her thing, it's, she's mistaken. The correlation for the correlation. Correct? 

[00:49:04] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:49:04] Mike: You are not correct. You would have to say like, oh, I've never had a good day unless I follow this routine.

[00:49:09] Correct. Yeah. And then if that's not true, then it's not the routine. It's something else. That's right. And, and mm-hmm. And, um, I, I mean, I know that's not, I mean, I'm guessing that's not true. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It sounds that's correct. But, um, but she's convinced herself, but, but attached herself because there were certain correlations sometimes, and she said, this leads to this.

[00:49:29] Eldar: You 

[00:49:29] Mike: know what I'm saying? Yeah. 

[00:49:30] Eldar: And that's conditioning, a non-thinking being. 

[00:49:32] Mike: Yes. Yeah. But yeah, I agree. But I think, um, it also brings me back to like, um, this, these, all these choices. 

[00:49:43] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:44] Mike: It's like, um, it's too many. Like, uh, maybe too many options still of things to do, but those options are not actually like, considered are they actually good for me or not, or do they make me happy or not?

[00:49:57] So I think that's also tied into it where it's like, 

[00:50:03] Eldar: yeah, 

[00:50:06] Mike: you are just like solving problems that are not actually problems and you're getting 

[00:50:10] Eldar: frustrated, exhausted and stuff. Well, if you, if you got the part of the equation, the correlation does not accusation wrong. 

[00:50:15] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:15] Eldar: You will be chasing your own tail.

[00:50:17] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:50:18] Eldar: For a very long time. 

[00:50:19] Katherine: That's how it feels like all the time. 

[00:50:20] Eldar: Yeah. You see, 

[00:50:21] Mike: well, yeah. 

[00:50:22] Eldar: So the person's not really empowered. Yeah. They're just kind of going off of like, oh, but they told me that routine might work. 

[00:50:27] Katherine: Mm-hmm. I'll try this or I'll 

[00:50:28] Eldar: try that. So I'll do this routine. Yeah. And then when the routine does pay out, right?

[00:50:32] Mm-hmm. She went to the gym, she did a yoga, whatever, whatever. She ate healthy that day. Mm-hmm. She's like, oh, I'll kind of liked how this feels. It feels, you know what I mean? Worse. Yeah. It's like, oh, it's the routine. 

[00:50:40] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:41] Eldar: You know what I mean? 

[00:50:41] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:50:44] Eldar: So it's, it's a ne you're never gonna extract a very like, empowering individual who's thinking these things through, is to say like, well, actually works.

[00:50:50] Well, actually it doesn't. 

[00:50:51] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:52] Eldar: You know? 

[00:50:52] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:50:54] Eldar: So then you'll have to be robotic. 

[00:50:55] Mike: Well, the rou. Yeah. Like having 

[00:50:56] Eldar: a 

[00:50:57] Mike: routine. It's automatic robotics. 

[00:50:58] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:50:59] Toliy: Yeah. Because the, yeah, 

[00:51:00] Eldar: I have a routine bro. 

[00:51:01] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:02] Eldar: I have a routine, but I don't think I have a routine. 

[00:51:04] Toliy: Yeah. I feel like if, if you have some something like rigid outlined like that you never consider, like the day before or the, or, or, or like the current day, like you don't consider ever how you actually feel and then you like grow out of ever doing that.

[00:51:20] You just say like, Hey, this is what I'm gonna do no matter what. 

[00:51:23] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:51:23] Toliy: And then when you don't do it, well now you probably have to be, oh, you 

[00:51:26] Eldar: got a big problem, 

[00:51:27] Toliy: beat yourself up about it. 

[00:51:28] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:51:28] Toliy: Mm-hmm. And then you're probably gonna have a like, rest muscle esteem being, being bad. And then, okay, now we'll try waking up the next day with already going through all that pain from the day before.

[00:51:37] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:38] Toliy: And doing it again. So you're just gonna be in like a perpetual. Yeah. Negative. Yeah. Like, like deficit there where you can never catch up. You can never mm-hmm. Get to that, like you're in the plus, you know, field. But yeah, like, I mean, I, I also have a routine all almost the same every day, and I constantly do like, you know, different things to tweak it and see like what's 

[00:52:02] Eldar: mm-hmm.

[00:52:02] Toliy: What's better or not. But I definitely have like, grown to like not, um, 

[00:52:06] Eldar: judge yourself. 

[00:52:07] Toliy: Yeah. Not judge myself if like, I don't know, if I don't go to the gym or if I like, you know, do whatever or this or that. 

[00:52:13] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:52:13] Toliy: Like, yeah. I definitely don't feel bad, bad about those things. 

[00:52:17] Eldar: The thing is, uh, throughout the day, there are so many variables that are at play throughout the day that for you to be able to be certain about, uh, your outcomes is a very, a arrogant play.

[00:52:31] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:52:32] Eldar: To say that I did this and I got this. Mm-hmm. It's a crazy, arrogant way to live. 

[00:52:37] Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But 

[00:52:38] Eldar: I also, 'cause you cannot, you cannot, uh, it's nearly impossible, right. Um, to track back all the conversations you had, you know what I mean? All those small little stressors that went in your head, all the variables that you went against, the, the, uh, the media that you consumed, the phone call you got, you know, the smile that somebody smiled at you.

[00:52:59] You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. One smile from some stranger could have, could have defined your day. 

[00:53:04] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:53:04] Eldar: But you could have been like, oh, somebody held the door for you could have defined like, they were really nice to me, you know? And that kind of brightened you up, but then you like, no, that was the fucking, the, the food, the gym and the yoga, you got it all wrong every single time.

[00:53:17] Mm-hmm. You might not really be sure about what's actually going on, but you arrogantly make these statements upon yourself and you become more and more rigid with the system that you need all Chen. Mm-hmm. Right? 

[00:53:29] Mike: Yep. 

[00:53:31] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? You can't start the day without having a ritual to take a shit 

[00:53:34] Mike: Yeah.

[00:53:35] For two hours. 

[00:53:36] Eldar: You know what I mean? He has to sit down, he has like smoke a cigarette. Mm-hmm. You know, like he don't smoke, you know, like 

[00:53:41] Mike: he don't smoke. We smoke a cigarette. 

[00:53:43] Eldar: Yeah. You, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's a wild thing. Yeah. 

[00:53:47] Mike: Well that's already like a 

[00:53:48] Toliy: Yeah. I feel like crazy. Also, part of it is maybe like, um, I think a lot of people in general have like built up these like, um, things as to like, like how they ought to do the things, for example.

[00:54:03] Yeah. And like, what's not Okay. Yeah. And what's Okay. 

[00:54:05] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:54:06] Toliy: And I feel like maybe, maybe Kat like feels like, I don't know, like she imposes like a self guilt Definitely. Of not doing things or doing things correct. And not just doing like 

[00:54:15] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:54:15] Toliy: Like, like 

[00:54:16] Katherine: all 

[00:54:16] Toliy: the time if I just said like, Hey, starting tomorrow you're just gonna wake up and do what?

[00:54:20] Nothing. Do whatever you want. Yeah. For, for example, like, what would that look, uh, look like? 

[00:54:24] Katherine: I probably wouldn't even even be able to dec decide. Sometimes I can't decide and it's sometimes I'm successful, like sometimes. I'll just like, like intentionally like take it easy and like not, and like I'll have a nice time, you know, like, I'll enjoy my day, you know, and then sometimes I'm like, like, okay, what do I do?

[00:54:45] Do I, you know, like, should I go to the gym? Should I go food shopping? What? You know, and like, just constantly chasing my tail, as you guys said. 

[00:54:53] Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:54:54] Katherine: It's interesting. 

[00:54:55] Mike: Well, 

[00:54:55] Katherine: yeah. 

[00:54:56] Mike: On this one, like, um, I said this already, like all I, this is like my thing to say, but it's always like gonna come back to subtraction.

[00:55:04] Mm-hmm. You have to val verify the things in your life and that you're doing if they're serving a purpose and you just have to 

[00:55:10] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:55:10] Mike: Reevaluate that. What 

[00:55:11] Eldar: role are they playing in your life? 

[00:55:13] Mike: Yeah. And until you do that, you're just gonna be like, doing stuff that's not actually contributing to you or Yeah.

[00:55:18] Is just taken away. Um, yeah. And that's obviously it, it's a scary thing to do, you know? 

[00:55:24] Eldar: Of course. 

[00:55:25] Mike: Um, because the chaos is peaceful. It's not paradoxical way. 

[00:55:29] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:55:29] Mike: Because silence is scary and, you know. 

[00:55:32] Eldar: Wow. 

[00:55:32] Mike: So 

[00:55:33] Eldar: that's another quote. 

[00:55:35] Mike: So I think, um, yeah, I mean that's, that's the hard part to, to like, um, sit, but it, but it, it's also, yeah.

[00:55:46] I mean, in the moment to wake up, 

[00:55:48] Eldar: how do you tell yourself you've been 40 years on this earth, right? You're gonna say yourself. I don't know nothing. You don't know nothing. Tell Joe right now. Right. You don't know nothing. Joe. 

[00:55:56] Mike: How do you do 

[00:55:56] Eldar: it? The way you conduct yourself? Yeah. The way you conduct your family, the way you're raising your child.

[00:56:00] You dunno what you're doing. How do you do that? 

[00:56:03] Mike: How do you do that for somebody else? 

[00:56:04] Eldar: For yourself, for 

[00:56:05] Mike: yourself, for yourself? 

[00:56:06] Eldar: How do you say that to yourself? 

[00:56:07] Mike: Well, 

[00:56:07] Eldar: you know what I'm saying? 

[00:56:08] Mike: Put yourself in the position to be an idiot as much as possible. 

[00:56:12] Toliy: No, 

[00:56:12] Eldar: I, no. Yeah. How do you do that? You're asking 

[00:56:13] Toliy: for like a, uh, impossible.

[00:56:15] Uh, 

[00:56:16] Eldar: yeah, that's, that's what I'm saying. 

[00:56:17] Mike: That's, 

[00:56:18] Eldar: that's what I'm saying, right? Yeah. 

[00:56:20] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:56:20] Eldar: That you, you have to rere fucking, uh, reformat your whole computer. 

[00:56:25] Mike: Yeah. To 

[00:56:25] Eldar: say that that problem that you told your wife not to be on the phone and you, you created static against her, happened in the morning. 

[00:56:33] Mike: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:34] Eldar: When you say that we're gonna have to have dinner at six. 

[00:56:36] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:56:36] Eldar: For example, oh, I'm planning dinner today. Oh, I'm a nice guy. You know, for example, you know, I'm cooking dinner today, babe, this happens to Catherine. 

[00:56:46] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:56:47] Eldar: She's shouldn't make an announcement. She's like, oh, babe, I'm making this. You want some whatever, whatever.

[00:56:50] You know, and then sometimes she, she falls through, like she doesn't do it or whatever. Mm-hmm. What happened, you know, she, you know, I don't put the guilt on her or whatever. Yeah. But like, she probably beats herself up over it. 

[00:57:01] Katherine: Yeah. I beat myself up. 

[00:57:02] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:57:03] Eldar: You see? 

[00:57:03] Mike: Yeah, of course. 

[00:57:04] Eldar: Because she's planned something in the morning, something nice.

[00:57:06] Mm-hmm. Announced it. I know about it. I come home, she didn't do it, or whatever, you know, like, I'm not gonna ride her. It's okay. I, I've been telling her that like, don't let me like. Uh, be the subconscious thing that's gonna like, you know, make you feel guilty about it. Mm-hmm. Like that, that's not, don't put that on me.

[00:57:23] I'm gonna be okay. You know what I mean? It's not, it's not that serious 

[00:57:26] Mike: of course, 

[00:57:27] Eldar: but obviously she's the judge. She's the planner and she's the executioner. 

[00:57:30] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:57:30] Eldar: And the prisoner. It's 

[00:57:31] Toliy: me. It's, 

[00:57:32] Mike: I mean, it, it does, comes back to like the, what you said earlier, I mean, what we're talking about with just timing.

[00:57:37] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:38] Mike: You know, the proper time to make plans, the proper time to approach a problem, right? 

[00:57:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:57:44] Mike: To be able to gauge yourself, but also to gauge another person, be like, Hey, is that person receptive right now to here? 

[00:57:50] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:50] Mike: A certain criticism. Mm-hmm. You know, or am I able to structure the words in this certain type of way that the, it's gonna be heard considering I have a very big, strong attachment to the outcome.

[00:58:02] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:58:03] Mike: I'm frustrated. Yeah. Can I be honest right now? Yes. Can I actually structure this right way and the person's gonna hear it it and then try to do that in real time all the time. 

[00:58:11] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:58:11] Mike: That's very challenging. 

[00:58:12] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:58:13] Mike: Because, 

[00:58:13] Eldar: but that is the smartest way to approach it. 

[00:58:15] Mike: It's smart, it's, yeah, for 

[00:58:16] Eldar: sure. You know what I mean?

[00:58:17] And that's how you should approach these things. That's 

[00:58:18] Mike: how you should. Yeah. 

[00:58:19] Eldar: But when you are operating on fumes, 

[00:58:21] Mike: well, yeah, 

[00:58:22] Eldar: well, you know, you know what I'm saying? You're not thinking about no damn word structure, 

[00:58:26] Mike: but the fumes also, it's all, all self-created, you know, when 

[00:58:29] Eldar: you have Yeah. Thousands ofdecision.

[00:58:30] So therefore we go back to everything we said. Everybody gets exactly what they deserve. Yeah, 

[00:58:34] Toliy: yeah, yeah. But all, all, also, people are not willing to like, um, be put in that world of like, Hey, you have no, no responsibilities. Right. They can't accept that. Right. 

[00:58:46] Eldar: They have a hard time with that. Yeah. 

[00:58:47] Toliy: Yeah. Like if you told, like if you told Kat like, Hey, Kat, like that's it.

[00:58:51] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:58:51] Toliy: You have no, no responsibilities anymore. You don't have to do, 

[00:58:54] Eldar: I'm requesting for only one thing for Catherine to learn to do only one thing. 

[00:58:58] Toliy: To do nothing. No, 

[00:58:59] Eldar: no. What, what is it? 

[00:59:00] Toliy: Sleep. 

[00:59:02] Eldar: Just to learn how to sleep. Please just sleep. 

[00:59:06] Toliy: Yeah. But then you 

[00:59:07] Eldar: also take a nap. Learn how to nap. 

[00:59:08] Toliy: Then you also see that people are not 

[00:59:09] Mike: willing.

[00:59:10] Right? 

[00:59:10] Eldar: No, 

[00:59:10] Mike: they're not. 

[00:59:11] Eldar: They're not. Because that, they're not in 

[00:59:13] Mike: that moment, doesn't believe what you can, 

[00:59:14] Eldar: because she's arrogant. Arrogant. Yeah. The rest, you know what I'm saying? She, she thinks that I'm wrong. 

[00:59:19] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:59:19] Eldar: Do you remember She believes that I'm wrong. 

[00:59:21] Katherine: No. I just, I guys, I, no, but I, I have, I have tried so much like with the naps and 

[00:59:26] Eldar: Do you believe her?

[00:59:27] Katherine: It doesn't happen. No. 

[00:59:28] Eldar: Thank you. You Yeah. 

[00:59:30] Toliy: Anyone 

[00:59:31] who, 

[00:59:31] Eldar: you believe her? 

[00:59:31] Toliy: Anyone who says that? 

[00:59:32] Eldar: Yeah. I tried everything. I'll love it. No, I've done nothing. Thank you. Yeah. 

[00:59:36] Toliy: My dad always says, 

[00:59:37] Eldar: I 

[00:59:37] Katherine: always try 

[00:59:38] Toliy: napping. No, it's impossible. I've shot everything. 

[00:59:39] Eldar: It doesn't work. You, 

[00:59:40] Toliy: uh, like, yeah. I, I've tried everything.

[00:59:42] What, 

[00:59:42] Eldar: what a defeating mindset, right? 

[00:59:44] Toliy: Yeah. Well, well, it's an arrogant mindset. It's a very I arrogant mindset. You tried 

[00:59:47] Eldar: everything. 

[00:59:49] Katherine: I would love, I would love to nap guys. I really would. 

[00:59:51] Eldar: You 

[00:59:52] Katherine: see this? 

[00:59:52] Toliy: Mm-hmm. I need it. Yeah. But, but, but you really wouldn't, right. 

[00:59:55] Katherine: No, I would, I would love to be able to, but, 

[00:59:57] Toliy: but you're not 

[00:59:57] Katherine: willing to drop everything else.

[00:59:59] I get such bad sleep at night that like, naps would be great for me. 'cause I could probably feel, I would probably, yeah. Should tried everything guys. So 

[01:00:07] Eldar: this is a this. Yeah. 

[01:00:08] Toliy: But I also feel, 

[01:00:09] Katherine: so what's, what's, uh, what, what, what, what haven't I tried? Like what's the secret sauce too? You 

[01:00:13] Eldar: see, they always 

[01:00:14] Katherine: come 

[01:00:14] Eldar: back with the same challenge.

[01:00:15] Katherine: No, really? Tell me. I wanna know what, what's the secret sauce there? 

[01:00:19] Eldar: You haven't tried anything as totally 

[01:00:20] Katherine: said. You need to be able to turn off your mind, I think to just like, take a, a nap. Right. That's, that's hard for me. It's, it's hard for me at night. 

[01:00:29] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:00:29] Katherine: It's even harder 

[01:00:30] Eldar: in the day. It's a, I told you it's a value system.

[01:00:31] You wake up and broken, but you have a to-do list. You have all these sticky notes with to-do lists. Yeah. Correct. 

[01:00:37] Toliy: Mm-hmm. One, one thing I just wanted to mention that I just remembered 

[01:00:41] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:00:42] Toliy: In my morning routine 

[01:00:43] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[01:00:44] Toliy: I had the worst mornings every day. 

[01:00:46] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:00:46] Toliy: For as long as I can remember. Yeah. 

[01:00:49] Eldar: You're gonna, every 

[01:00:49] Toliy: day 

[01:00:49] Eldar: you're gonna be tasked to teach Catherine then.

[01:00:51] Toliy: All right. I, I, I had the worst mornings every single day. Uh, for as long as I could remember. And then I remember, like, now I'm thinking about it. The biggest game changer for me, for everything was not working out in the morning or not like doing this or not doing that. Um, I, like, I have a, right now I have a sensitivity to.

[01:01:13] If there's something that I enjoy doing in the morning, like right now, I do enjoy working out. 

[01:01:17] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:01:17] Toliy: But I, for, for example, but I only enjoy doing it if I'm not in a rush, for example. 

[01:01:22] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:01:22] Toliy: And like the other day, like the, my first night with like, without the, uh, dogs 

[01:01:26] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[01:01:27] Toliy: Like, I, I slept in, I woke up late and then by the time I was ready to go, I was like, yeah, I don't have enough time for the gym.

[01:01:33] I mean, like, I could go. 

[01:01:34] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:01:34] Toliy: But then I'm gonna rush going through it. Yes. And I'm definitely not gonna enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah. So I just didn't go. 

[01:01:38] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:01:39] Toliy: So I'm like, well, if I can't enjoy it in the way that I want to 

[01:01:41] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:01:41] Toliy: You know, do this and do that Right. Then I'm just not gonna go 

[01:01:45] Eldar: That's 

[01:01:45] Toliy: self love because I don't, I don't want that.

[01:01:46] I don't want that feeling of frustration of like, damn, like, you know, like, I'm like rushing through things. I'm late or like this, this, or that. So like, 

[01:01:54] Eldar: now ask 

[01:01:54] Toliy: her, does 

[01:01:54] Eldar: she have that kind of routine in her head? 

[01:01:56] Toliy: No. Probably. No. She pushes through everything. Everything, everything she does is, is push through the morning.

[01:02:01] Like, I, I would make like a cup of coffee and I would take like a half hour to drink it, even though it takes like five minutes, you know? 

[01:02:08] Katherine: Mm-hmm. Like 

[01:02:08] Toliy: everything I, I would do, if I'm gonna do it in the morning, I would do it super slow, super slow, like 10 times more time than it actually takes. And then I, and then I, and, and then I grew to enjoy like, everything that I would do, like in the morning, 

[01:02:23] Eldar: Katherine's late to everything.

[01:02:28] Toliy: Yeah. So, yeah. So, so like today I woke up fine. I woke up earlier. I went to the gym and I had a good experience the day before. I'm like, I didn't have enough time, so I just didn't go. That's it. 

[01:02:40] Eldar: And you didn't beat yourself up over 

[01:02:42] Toliy: it? No, no. I was like, well, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna have a bad experience, so I'm not gonna do it.

[01:02:45] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:02:45] Toliy: You know? 

[01:02:46] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:02:46] Toliy: So that, that to me was like, I did everything last minute, everything late in the morning, like got ready late, finished everything late, went to everything late, and I always felt this like, it, it was like a rush. Like it was just like, like those movies where you see the people like running and almost mm-hmm.

[01:03:02] At, at, at like high speeds, right? Yeah. That, that's how I felt. And it was a chaotic, every day was like a, like a movie scene, like in the morning. Yeah. A chaotic rush. 

[01:03:12] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:03:12] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:03:12] Toliy: You know? Yeah. Up, yeah. Up, up until now, like I value it not to be that way. And I, and I, like, I would say like 99% of the time, I don't have that.

[01:03:25] Have you tried everything? 

[01:03:27] Katherine: No. 

[01:03:28] Toliy: Okay. So it quickly changed. Yeah. And like, I definitely, I mean that at times still do. Um, but like, I definitely had a very, very, or like known to have a very chaotic mind and I could definitely nap as well now, like too, but so I, so I think it's definitely possible to, to be able to nap and be able to do those things.

[01:03:55] I just feel like there's. Probably like certain things that you just like feel that are not okay, or that are like not allowed 

[01:04:02] Eldar: to let, 

[01:04:03] Toliy: to let go of. Yeah. You know, to let go of. Mm-hmm. That's like keeping your mind racing because you're just like not willing to break whatever rules that, like attachments that you've 

[01:04:12] Eldar: built, 

[01:04:12] Toliy: set, set for yourself and, um, 

[01:04:18] Eldar: so you prescribe more suffering.

[01:04:20] Toliy: Yeah. That, that, that, that's also why lots of times like, well, 

[01:04:22] Katherine: there's 

[01:04:23] Toliy: no other 

[01:04:23] Katherine: way around 

[01:04:24] Toliy: it. I like lot, lots of times, like o over the years I've like, you know, I value what Elder says a lot. Um, EE even if I don't apply, like those things Right, right away because like every time when I have like some kind of like a block, right.

[01:04:40] Um, I feel like he always challenges me, me back to like say like, what are you talking about? Like, this is not a rule. And I'm like, what are you talking about? This is a rule. You know? And then like, I always get amazed at like, at when, when I get that realization that like, huh, this is allowed, you know?

[01:04:56] Yeah. Like, who made this rule? Someone I heard or someone I saw, and then I turn all of these things slowly that I think are rules into like, they no longer exist. Like they're no longer, um, 

[01:05:08] Eldar: a thing in his life. 

[01:05:09] Toliy: Yeah. Mm-hmm. They're no longer an actual problem because like, it was problem because they hold a hostage.

[01:05:13] It was just a problem that I created because I believe that this is a problem. Mm-hmm. But this is like a nothing rule. It's almost like, like, like you, you, you have a line like that you drew in the sand and you can't like put your foot over it. If you would just put your foot over it, you would realize that like, oh hey, like this is completely fine.

[01:05:32] But there's, there's, there's like a limiting belief that you have that's like, um, 

[01:05:37] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:05:38] Toliy: Stopping you from learning about that because like you believe like bad things will happen to you if you don't. Yeah. And I definitely have experienced that because the, like, anxiety feels that, that kind of way of like, um, oh, like if you don't do things this kind of way or if you don't do do that, then you will get bad repercussions from, from, from, correct.

[01:06:03] Mike: Mm-hmm. And 

[01:06:04] Toliy: then it just stops you from doing everything, you know, like, like it just puts you in like a vegetative state. And I think the funny thing is that like the tiredness that like you do have and the like, like the, uh, fatigue, the fatigue you do have, it is probably like, you probably design the system for yourself to suppress like that, like those like bad feelings from coming out.

[01:06:27] But you do that by like beating yourself like down 

[01:06:31] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:06:31] Toliy: From like then being able to, you know, to tackle those things. Yeah. Like I felt like before I would always want to ensure that I'm as tired as possible because I needed to be 

[01:06:40] Eldar: correct, 

[01:06:41] Toliy: you know? 

[01:06:41] Eldar: Correct. 

[01:06:42] Toliy: I couldn't handle, 

[01:06:43] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:06:43] Toliy: Not being tired 'cause I would feel bad.

[01:06:46] So I did everything I can, whether it's like overeat or like, um, you know, deprive myself of sleep all to be as tired. As like, um, '

[01:06:56] Eldar: cause he was under that impression that this is what needs to be. He grew that attachment and it became big that like, this is the way it's done. You know? And he believed it. He bought into it, he gave it value, and that actually became his prison.

[01:07:12] And you don't understand how much stuff like this you have. 

[01:07:15] Katherine: Oh, I have a lot. 

[01:07:17] Eldar: Right. That you don't bring forward. It's in you and it's ruling you right now. 

[01:07:21] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:07:21] Eldar: And, and it's defining how, how, how well you fall asleep today. It's defining everything, how it's gonna turn out your day tomorrow because of those things you don't even know.

[01:07:33] You have no control. 

[01:07:34] Mike: Yeah. Your day, your, your day tomorrow gets ruined. Yesterday. Yesterday. Yeah. Yesterday 

[01:07:39] Eldar: before. 

[01:07:39] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. 'cause of what you planned. Yeah. Correct. I mean, 

[01:07:42] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:07:43] Mike: It's again, but it's also like fine tuning it too. Like, you know, I also try to wake up some days and like I have a plan. 

[01:07:49] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:07:50] Mike: You know, and then I go and I laugh at myself like, Hey, we 

[01:07:53] Eldar: abandon this shit.

[01:07:53] Yeah, 

[01:07:54] Mike: that's right. Like, before I go on, I do the stupid thing that I shouldn't have done. Yeah. 'cause I planned it and I'm like, oh, I was an idiot. Like, okay. 

[01:08:00] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:08:00] Mike: Like, hopefully I'll learn this lesson. Mm-hmm. I don't have to do this again. 

[01:08:03] Eldar: Correct. 

[01:08:03] Mike: But sometimes I do. So it's like, 

[01:08:06] Toliy: I, I still wake up with an alarm clock.

[01:08:10] I still have an alarm clock every day. But how about this? I set my alarm every day before I go to bed. 

[01:08:16] Eldar: So what does that mean? 

[01:08:17] Toliy: Because like I set it different based on like, okay, like I'm going in bed on time today. 

[01:08:21] Eldar: Oh, 

[01:08:21] Toliy: you said it differently? 

[01:08:22] Eldar: Yeah, 

[01:08:22] Toliy: 7:00 AM or 6:00 AM 

[01:08:24] Eldar: Okay. 

[01:08:24] Toliy: Mm-hmm. Because I'm, I'm in bed by 10.

[01:08:26] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:08:26] Toliy: Well, if I can't fall asleep or I had too much coffee and I'm, and I'm like falling asleep at 1130. 

[01:08:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:08:31] Toliy: I'm not gonna set on a 6:00 AM alarm 

[01:08:32] Eldar: clock. Yeah. 

[01:08:33] Toliy: You change it I seven or seven 30. 

[01:08:35] Eldar: Yeah. You're being reasonable with yourself. 

[01:08:36] Toliy: You negotiate every day, day. That's even though I still have the alarm.

[01:08:39] Eldar: That's good. 

[01:08:39] Toliy: I'm like, okay, I'm gonna set this at six, but I, everyone knows what's gonna happen then. 

[01:08:43] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:08:43] Toliy: I'm gonna press snoo and I'm gonna go back to bed. Correct. And then like, I'm gonna have more broken 

[01:08:48] Eldar: sleep fight. Why would you wanna have that fight against yourself? 

[01:08:48] Toliy: And if I just at seven or seven 30 and then I wake up and I feel good.

[01:08:52] Eldar: Correct. Correct. 

[01:08:54] Toliy: So, 

[01:08:54] Eldar: yeah, and I think that's wisdom. I think that's where it's wise, where you can kind of realize that there are so many variables that are at play. Those are gonna like, you know, uh, define the way your day turns out, you know, and to then close yourself off in such a small hole like Joe did, for example, in that instance.

[01:09:12] Right. Uh, it's gonna cost static. 

[01:09:14] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:09:15] Eldar: It's inevitable. Right. Why did Joe and Alana, um, you know, sat down and decided on saying that the TV is an evil thing? Right. Well, why? Because, oh 

[01:09:25] Katherine: wait. Didn't you say you were gonna 

[01:09:27] Eldar: Yeah, we'll call him. We'll call, I'll call him. I'll, we'll still call him. Yeah. Um. Why can't, do we not agree that there's certain material on TV that could be educational for kids?

[01:09:39] Mike: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Of course. 

[01:09:41] Eldar: Are some cartoons more educational than others? Absolutely. I don't know if he's washing sponge, SpongeBob square pants. I'm like, I don't know. Perverted shit. No, but there's like kid stuff that might be educational that might actually be good. 

[01:09:54] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:09:54] Eldar: It's not nothing bad, nothing wrong with that.

[01:09:56] To use that as a helper, as a guy, as, as a babysitter for the moment, for an hour or two while you finish dinner, let alone let, uh, his wife take a break. 

[01:10:06] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:10:07] Eldar: You know, 

[01:10:09] Katherine: it's, why 

[01:10:09] Eldar: not? 

[01:10:10] Katherine: It's tough because like he's with the baby, let's say all day, right? 

[01:10:13] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:10:14] Katherine: Um, so he needs a break too, you know? Sure. He might have but has been working.

[01:10:18] Eldar: She might 

[01:10:18] Katherine: have that gets, is yes. And she also needs a break. 

[01:10:21] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:10:21] Katherine: And she's also, you know, um, close to, you know, she's in her third trimester. I'm, I'm pretty sure she's tired. So like, it's, it's, it's fair that both of them are equally needing of like their own time or break percent. It's totally fair. 

[01:10:35] Eldar: Think that if there's gonna be one advice that I do give, give them both, is that they need to together, uh, find ways to fight for their freedom.

[01:10:48] And by freedom I mean in, in, in those times where they feel actually alive and happy, hanging out with their friends, uh, rock climbing with us as an example. Mm-hmm. 

[01:10:58] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:10:59] Eldar: Watching UFC cooking with us or whatever, hanging out. And sometimes it could be separate. 

[01:11:04] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:11:05] Eldar: And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that.

[01:11:07] You know, whatever hobbies that she has, she has, they have to fight for that for one another. A 

[01:11:12] Mike: hundred percent. 

[01:11:13] Eldar: And that's the only way they're gonna be able to replenish themselves. Have enough energy 

[01:11:17] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:11:17] Eldar: And be able to continue 

[01:11:18] Toliy: to like main, maintain like a, uh, individuality. 

[01:11:22] Eldar: 100%. 

[01:11:22] Toliy: Because like yeah, a lot of your attention is, you know, to your partner Yeah.

[01:11:25] To your kids or kids. 

[01:11:27] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:11:27] Toliy: Right. You still need to find your own time. 

[01:11:29] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:11:30] Toliy: So that you could put in the proper effort 

[01:11:32] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:11:32] Toliy: Into like, I guess upkeeping those values that Correct. For example, set. 

[01:11:36] Eldar: Correct. 

[01:11:37] Toliy: But yeah, like if you're broken, tired, whatever it is. Yeah. Like, all, everything to like, again, to, to me, like if, if, if I don't feel good, everything goes out the window.

[01:11:48] Thank to thank you, 

[01:11:48] Eldar: thank 

[01:11:49] Toliy: you. Whatever plans I had, whatever wanted, and this is what 

[01:11:50] Eldar: I tell k Katherine, you wake up, you wake up, you feel sleep deprived, but you, ra mind is racing. You have to ban all the things that you wrote down on a to-do list. 

[01:11:59] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:12:00] Eldar: You're not allowed to do them today. 

[01:12:01] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:12:02] Eldar: This is what totally ISS talking about.

[01:12:03] All that shit is erased. Yeah, sure. There, there was, those were good ideas yesterday. 

[01:12:07] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:12:08] Eldar: But we didn't factor in there. You just fucking slept for three hours. 

[01:12:11] Mike: Right. 

[01:12:12] Eldar: What are we talking about? 

[01:12:13] Toliy: Yeah. Like what? Like al also it's like ar Eric arrogant to, to like say that like, how well are you gonna do those things perform and are you gonna be able to do them properly than if you just said, hey, not today.

[01:12:25] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:12:25] Toliy: Another time, you know, may, maybe the day after that you wake up, you feel amazing and you go and you. Do all these things properly and you, like, you crush them, I guess, in like a way. Right? 

[01:12:35] Eldar: There you go. 

[01:12:36] Toliy: But you're gonna half-ass all of those workouts, you're gonna have 100% all of those tasks anyway.

[01:12:41] So 

[01:12:42] Eldar: even if you get a glimpse of like, you half-assed the workout, you got a little bit of like, oh, that's nice or whatever. Yeah. But see, it's not sustainable. 

[01:12:48] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. But see, like, I feel like because of the commitments and because of how people grow up, grow up, most people in general, um, they have no chance to grasp or to do any of these things because like they have work commitments.

[01:13:04] They have, you know, father commitments, they have like, you know, all kinds of commitments. 

[01:13:10] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:13:11] Toliy: Yeah. Um, to, to a, to a do. So I feel like, yeah, I mean, it feels like a luxury obviously, to be able to wake up and do what you want. Like, that's like an amazing thing. Mm-hmm. Um, and, um, but I feel like oftentimes including myself, like you don't wake up and you don't realize that, and you don't like, appreciate that and like value that.

[01:13:32] Like, hey, wow. Like you have a life where you, like, you can actually wake up and just do whatever you want and 

[01:13:36] Eldar: choose 

[01:13:37] Toliy: and choose. Yeah. You have the choice and that's like the most expensive thing that you can have. Yeah. 

[01:13:42] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:13:42] Toliy: Is that daily choice as to like what you're gonna do 

[01:13:45] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:13:45] Toliy: Today 

[01:13:46] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:13:46] Toliy: And still contributes towards the life that, that you want, but Yeah, like, you don't like, um, wake up and realize that every day, that like you have that opportunity.

[01:13:56] To, to just like, 

[01:13:57] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:13:58] Toliy: Free roam and whatever life you want that, that day. 

[01:14:01] Eldar: That's right. I'll give you a story. Uh, also on the trip when we went to Columbia, my mom was getting on my dad a lot. 

[01:14:07] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:08] Eldar: She would drink and fall asleep in random places. And obviously, you know, we're doing stuff, maybe we're hanging out with people or whatever, but he gets tired.

[01:14:17] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:14:17] Eldar: I'm like, ma, number one, it's his vacation. You know what I mean? Let him be. 

[01:14:22] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:22] Eldar: No, no, no. But he's missing this, he's missing that. He's, no, no, no. You are missing that. You have attachments to this. 

[01:14:28] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:14:28] Eldar: He, he clearly is checking out because he doesn't have those same attachments and obviously she's trying to shake him up, wake him up.

[01:14:34] He's like, what the fuck do you want? Like, you know, he yells at her, 

[01:14:37] Mike: of course, 

[01:14:37] Eldar: because he's tired. I'm like, ma, leave him alone. No, but this, this, this, what is happening? Same shit. She's attached to these outcomes. This is what she wants. 

[01:14:46] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:47] Eldar: He's not playing by the rules that we, that they set. That she set.

[01:14:50] Yeah. And then she wants to oppress him by 

[01:14:51] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:14:51] Eldar: And they're static. 

[01:14:52] Mike: Yeah. Of course. 

[01:14:53] Eldar: I'm like, ma, sleep is the most important thing. He's tired. It's okay for him to sleep. 

[01:14:59] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:15:00] Eldar: Think sleep is the most important thing. 

[01:15:02] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:15:02] Eldar: You know what I mean? You got good sleep. Great. Now go fuck up the day. You know, do everything you want.

[01:15:08] Yeah. 

[01:15:08] Toliy: Like, yeah. Yeah. I just feel like, because most people are just like sleep deprived and they make it like a normal 

[01:15:15] Eldar: Yeah. Because 

[01:15:15] Toliy: they have commitments. They have, uh, yeah. Duties. 

[01:15:17] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:15:17] Toliy: They don't realize how important like. That part. That part is, yeah. And like, I mean, thank, thankfully now, like I have amazing sleep pretty much every night.

[01:15:26] Like I'm, I almost never have a problem, you know? Um, but, but before there's 

[01:15:33] Eldar: a recent phenomenon. 

[01:15:34] Toliy: Yeah. But, but before it was terrible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was terrible. 

[01:15:37] Eldar: You were on the red eye, red eye flight every night. 

[01:15:39] Katherine: Yeah. I remember there was an HRV conversation like every day and it was like, 

[01:15:43] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:15:44] Katherine: Not like perfect or like, not where you wanted it to be.

[01:15:47] Eldar: I mean, 

[01:15:48] Katherine: so that's progress. 

[01:15:49] Eldar: Yeah. It's huge progress, babe. I mean, like, this is a monumental change in the person's life, 

[01:15:52] Toliy: relatively now whenever I want 

[01:15:54] Katherine: to that, but to, he's also at his healthiest. 

[01:15:56] Eldar: Well, 

[01:15:56] Katherine: think about, I've never seen of that seem totally at this, you know, at this, you know, working out every day and, and, and 

[01:16:03] Eldar: feeling it's because now becoming a, a natural choice, he naturally is gravitating to towards those things because he has the energy for them.

[01:16:09] Mm-hmm. And he's choosing it to be on his time. 

[01:16:13] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:16:14] Eldar: And he's doing it right. That's why I told you that losing weight and all this other shit, this is a byproduct. Mm-hmm. Of a proper lifestyle and understanding. See you even yawning right now. 

[01:16:22] Katherine: I'm always sleepy. 

[01:16:24] Eldar: What about you? Yawning. You're relaxing. You need to hear this.

[01:16:27] Toliy: Yawning is actually good. Like it's a, uh, 

[01:16:29] Eldar: it's very good. 

[01:16:30] Toliy: Pressure relief. It's a, uh, 

[01:16:31] Eldar: yeah, 

[01:16:31] Toliy: blood pressure for sure. Relief. She's relaxing's good. Have good sleep. A lot. Pressure 

[01:16:34] Katherine: relief. 

[01:16:34] Toliy: Yeah. Like, yeah, like if I don't feel well, for example, and I go in the sauna, like I'll, I'll yawn like a bunch of times and it's like a, uh, like you, you, you can almost yawn to like tears, you know?

[01:16:46] Katherine: Yes, I can actually, 

[01:16:47] Toliy: yeah. That, that's a pressure, like a relief. 

[01:16:49] Katherine: Yeah. That, that's actually really common for me. Like the tears that come out when I yawn. Mm-hmm. 

[01:16:56] Eldar: Yeah. So, and now of course it's now you, you get the first thing right, and then everything else starts to become very natural and much easier. You know, me and Mike were already on that routine too.

[01:17:07] You didn't get good sleep without rocking. We're not doing shit. It's gonna be fucking hard. Mm-hmm. It's not gonna enjoy ourselves. 

[01:17:12] Katherine: Yeah. No, I've, I've, I've implemented that a lot more, 

[01:17:15] Eldar: you know? 

[01:17:17] Mike: Yeah. That's, 

[01:17:18] Eldar: and in Joe's case, that's the same thing, right. He's overwhelmed, he's stressed, he's not getting enough sleep, and Yeah, of course he's gonna be on edge.

[01:17:24] Mike: Yeah, of course. 

[01:17:26] Eldar: You know, so prioritize that and then first prioritize sleep, and then try to prioritize fun. 

[01:17:31] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:17:31] Eldar: Those are the two things. They're gonna help you fill you to do the man nonsense. 

[01:17:36] Katherine: Penny's really good at that. 

[01:17:37] Eldar: Yes. We learn from her 

[01:17:39] Katherine: sleep and fun. 

[01:17:40] Mike: But the rules that we create, yes. A lot of the rules that we create, she's 

[01:17:42] Eldar: lying, 

[01:17:43] Mike: are, um, anti fun.

[01:17:45] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:17:46] Mike: By, not by like 

[01:17:48] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[01:17:49] Mike: We don't know what we're setting ourselves up for. Yeah. But just by automatic nature of creating a rule, it's a lot of the times it takes away the fun. I'm not, I think it might be even connected. Like, if you have rules, that's a, it's automatic fun is dead. 

[01:18:02] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:18:03] Mike: You know, because 

[01:18:04] Eldar: I think you're right.

[01:18:05] I think you are a hundred percent right about that. 

[01:18:07] Toliy: Yeah. I feel like rules puts you in like a, like as soon as you have a rule, you don't have a choice. Now you're, yeah. Now you remove thinking. Like you need. Yeah. Like again, what, what does society do? They're gonna create rules. Mm-hmm. For people that can't govern themselves.

[01:18:22] Right. Yeah. They can't think saying, Hey, well we have to make this rule. If you're gonna rob this store 

[01:18:26] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:18:26] Toliy: We're gonna have to throw you in jail. 

[01:18:28] Eldar: Yeah. Because 

[01:18:28] Toliy: you're an idiot. Right? 

[01:18:29] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:18:30] Toliy: Like, if you kill somebody, we're gonna have to throw you in jail. Yeah. Because you're an idiot if you cheat on this.

[01:18:35] Right. Yeah. You're gonna have to get thrown in jail. Yeah. Because you're an idiot. 

[01:18:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:18:39] Toliy: So I think that like Yeah. Like any rule is always being proven that if you have rules, you can't govern yourself so that you have someone else govern you. 

[01:18:48] Eldar: Yeah. Think 

[01:18:48] Toliy: for you. 'cause you can't control 

[01:18:50] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:18:50] Toliy: The outcomes.

[01:18:51] Eldar: That's right. 

[01:18:51] Toliy: Right. So like, 

[01:18:53] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:18:53] Toliy: We need to make sure that society is not like a menace. Right. Because pe pe, pe people can't do that. 

[01:18:59] Eldar: Yeah. That's why when we met that old man outside on the street 

[01:19:03] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:19:03] Eldar: He said, God gave us rules.

[01:19:08] We have to follow them 'cause we're sinners. You know? 

[01:19:14] Toliy: Hmm. 

[01:19:14] Eldar: And a lot of people believe this. That's why there are certain corporate things that we're gonna establish in that company. 

[01:19:20] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:19:21] Eldar: For certain people that are non thinkers. That's right. There's no way around that. 

[01:19:27] Mike: Yeah. Because we can't have their shit have taken away from our fund too.

[01:19:30] Eldar: Correct. 

[01:19:30] Mike: Because that's all the time. That's what they're trying to do. Correct. 

[01:19:33] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:19:34] Mike: They're trying to like, with their own rules. They're trying to not have fun, but they also don't wanna let anybody else have fun too. Yeah. 

[01:19:39] Eldar: They 

[01:19:39] Katherine: wanna press you. 

[01:19:40] Eldar: You 

[01:19:40] Mike: they wanna press us with the nonsense. That's exactly what's happening.

[01:19:42] Yeah. You know, and their behaviors and their complaints and whatever. 

[01:19:45] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[01:19:46] Mike: It is that they show out. Yeah. You know, it's, that shows for sure. A 

[01:19:50] Katherine: a crash out. 

[01:19:51] Eldar: A crash out. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 

[01:19:53] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:19:54] Eldar: So should we call Joe now and, uh, find out why he become so rigid? Why it becomes so rigid? 

[01:19:58] Katherine: Let's call him.

[01:19:59] Eldar: Should we take a guess at it? Should we, uh, see what we think? All right. Let's, yeah, let's do a little prediction. We could do a little prediction. Who wants to go first? Okay, I'll, I'll go. 

[01:20:10] Katherine: I mean, you guys. 

[01:20:11] Eldar: I'll go. You know? Yeah. I, I think 

[01:20:13] Katherine: very 

[01:20:13] well, 

[01:20:13] Eldar: I think ultimately the rule creating right. Is necessary, or one goes on that journey of creating these types of rigid rules for yourself mm-hmm.

[01:20:23] Is because of insecurity. 

[01:20:27] Katherine: Mm. 

[01:20:28] Eldar: Right. Okay. 

[01:20:30] Toliy: No, but you we're, we're taking a stab as to why Joe did it, right? Correct. Why is he gonna say 

[01:20:35] Mike: insecure? This is, this is what I just said. 

[01:20:37] Toliy: Okay. Security. So you think that he's gonna say that I'm insecure that No, 

[01:20:40] Mike: I'm saying that this is what it is. 

[01:20:41] Toliy: Oh, okay. I, I thought you were asking why, like, you, because you were gonna ask him, right?

[01:20:46] Mike: Yeah, yeah. Well, we're gonna ask him. We don't know. He's, they're 

[01:20:48] Katherine: guessing, 

[01:20:48] Mike: I'm 

[01:20:49] Eldar: guessing. I'm thinking We don't even 

[01:20:49] Mike: know if he knows, 

[01:20:50] Katherine: they're guessing his reason. 

[01:20:52] Toliy: Oh, okay. 

[01:20:52] Eldar: That's a kicker's, oh, sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I don't, no. Like what? I think that, why the rules happen mm-hmm. In general, yeah. Is insecurity for people.

[01:21:02] Okay. Insecurities because they're not good enough. Oh, I'll talk about 

[01:21:03] Mike: Joe specifically. 

[01:21:05] Eldar: I, I think this is across the board. So this applies to Joe. That's not gonna be Joe's reasons. I'm sorry. I was gonna say that's, yeah. I thought you guys were 

[01:21:11] Mike: guessing Joe's. I was gonna say here. Fear for Joe. Okay. 'cause like, I think as he became older 

[01:21:16] Eldar: Yeah.

[01:21:16] Mike: He became very fearful. A lot of other things. A lot of things. 

[01:21:19] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:21:19] Mike: And he is extremely cautious. Extremely like, I would say paranoid and like mm-hmm. Fearful of a lot of stuff. He carries a knife. He carries a knife. 

[01:21:26] Eldar: And ma and the 

[01:21:27] Mike: Mac probably that he show, like he's became I think, 

[01:21:29] Eldar: Swiss 

[01:21:30] more 

[01:21:30] Mike: fearful and more anxious.

[01:21:32] Eldar: He's gonna say, guys, when the fucking aliens come, you guys are gonna be begging for me to, to come to my house when I have my rifles and I don't give you shit. 

[01:21:38] Toliy: I, I feel like it, it's like it's stemming from the way that he was raised. I mean, based on what he's saying about his father. 

[01:21:44] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:21:44] Toliy: I feel like he does things a particular way and like that part, that part of him is how his dad acts.

[01:21:50] Mm-hmm. 

[01:21:50] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:21:51] Toliy: And then it's actually, I think, 

[01:21:52] Eldar: passed down. 

[01:21:53] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's passed down. But it's funny because one, it sounds like it doesn't serve him and two, it sounds like he gets really upset when his dad like, does the things, this kind of stuff. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That he doesn't like. 

[01:22:05] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:22:06] Toliy: I mean like, ikes him out almost, you know?

[01:22:07] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:22:08] Toliy: Right, right, right. Rightfully so. Obviously. 'cause he doesn't like it. 

[01:22:11] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:22:11] Toliy: You know, the 

[01:22:11] Mike: mirror. 

[01:22:12] Toliy: Yeah. Right. But, um, yeah, it sounds like to, to, to me, that his dad is very rigid and stubborn and parts of these DD straits are like, uh, 

[01:22:22] Eldar: DNA. Passed down. 

[01:22:24] Toliy: Passed down, yeah. 

[01:22:25] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:22:25] Eldar: Babe, 

[01:22:27] Katherine: I agree with totally. 

[01:22:28] Eldar: Okay.

[01:22:28] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:22:29] Eldar: You're taking the safe side. 

[01:22:31] Katherine: No, I, I just, you know, knowing, knowing his father Yeah. And also seeing that he has these similar qualities to his father. I'd have to agree, you know? 

[01:22:41] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:22:42] Katherine: Like, I, I, I, and most important, I just spend like a week with my parents, you know, after not seeing them for a while, and I observe some behaviors in them that are funny, but very challenging.

[01:22:54] And it's also funny because I see how similar I am to them. My father's very stubborn. I could be a lot like him. My mom, I'm very similar to her, even though she, uh, frustrates me a lot. Um, we're practically the same. So part of, I guess the frustration is, is also past, you know, it's genetic. I don't know how you wanna call it, but like, I definitely have their traits, you know, so I, I think this is that case 

[01:23:25] Eldar: doesn't mean that it's right to have those 

[01:23:26] traits.

[01:23:27] Eldar: I'm 

[01:23:27] Katherine: saying 

[01:23:27] Eldar: not go against those traits, 

[01:23:28] Katherine: them, I'm just agreeing with how Totally said that. 

[01:23:31] Eldar: Yeah. You know? Yeah. All right. Let's find out

[01:23:39] Katherine: why you smiling? I 

[01:23:41] Eldar: don't 

[01:23:41] Toliy: think it's funny. We're gonna ambush Joe right now. 

[01:23:45] Katherine: Let's ambush Joe. Feel like we're prank calling someone. 

[01:23:50] Toliy: Yes. You kick my dog. 

[01:23:52] Katherine: Yes, I remember that.

[01:23:58] Toliy: How about the people that call like two, uh, Chinese places? They haven't talked to each other. I 

[01:24:02] Katherine: saw that. Hey Joe, can you 

[01:24:07] call 

[01:24:07] Joe: me on uh, on WhatsApp? Oh yeah.

[01:24:16] Katherine: Penny, relax.

[01:24:22] She is intense today. 

[01:24:24] Toliy: Yeah, she definitely doesn't cry this much. 

[01:24:25] Katherine: Yeah, this is like, 

[01:24:27] Mike: oh, she's hungry. 

[01:24:29] Katherine: Don't say the words. Don't even say it. 

[01:24:34] Toliy: Are you a hungry 

[01:24:34] Eldar: girlie? 

[01:24:35] Katherine: Mm-hmm. She's got a lot of reserves. 

[01:24:40] Toliy: Doesn't care at all. 

[01:24:40] Eldar: Can you guys hear the tune? I mean, it's loud though.

[01:24:45] Hello? Yeah. What's up Joe? Yo, Joe. What's up? 

[01:24:49] Toliy: Collect call from Alcatraz. 

[01:24:51] Eldar: Collect call from, uh, the the Truth Police. 

[01:24:55] Joe: I did not accept this call. I'm not paying for this. 

[01:24:59] Eldar: He's running guys. He's running. Alright, so have you been listening? 

[01:25:03] Joe: Yes. 

[01:25:04] Eldar: So give us some insight. So question number one, why are you so rigid?

[01:25:09] How'd you become so rigid? 

[01:25:12] Joe: Uh, rigid as far as like structure? 

[01:25:14] Eldar: Yes. Following 

[01:25:15] Joe: rules? 

[01:25:15] Eldar: Yes. And being 

[01:25:15] Joe: like, uh, 

[01:25:16] Eldar: yes. Yeah. Where you put these rules on yourself, on your family, and then obviously, like, you probably heard that these rules backfire, but why, why did they come about in the first place? What, why, why you do it.

[01:25:28] Joe: Yeah. I mean, I, my father raised me like he was a drill sergeant. That's, that's one. 

[01:25:33] Eldar: That's one. Okay. 

[01:25:34] Joe: You know, I had to constantly be, you know, following the rule. Don't, don't put this on dad, get my ass kicked. You know, like if I threw the garbage out wrong, I would, you know, never hear the end of it. 

[01:25:49] Eldar: Mm-hmm.

[01:25:50] Joe: Uh, so always kind of like expectations were always 

[01:25:56] Eldar: high. 

[01:25:57] Joe: Uh, uh, high. And, and, and I always like, expected things to go wrong. So like, you know, you kind of are on edge to 

[01:26:06] Eldar: on edge. 

[01:26:07] Joe: Yeah. Make sure, make sure shit, shit, shit goes right. And then after my father raising me that way, then I had, you know, um, structure with like the N-Y-P-D-I, I, uh, you know, I went to an academy and then everything they do is crazy by the book.

[01:26:25] You know, you have to fill your, you have to fill your memo pad out, like, and if by the tee, and if you missed one thing, you get in trouble. Like, so your uniform has to be perfect. Everything you do. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, uh, the fire department was similar but not as strict, but there's still a lot of structure to it.

[01:26:44] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[01:26:45] Joe: Uh, and then, uh, and then going into iron working, it was like kind of doing it all over again. So like, I kind of, I've always been like, put into, I tell you what to do, this is how it's gonna get done if it doesn't get done. Oh. And, and doing film. I worked for this guy who was military guy and he ran his operation.

[01:27:07] Like, you can, you can't make a mistake because, uh, if you did, the production would, would which fail, which was true. Um, and I was fine with it 'cause I was already, I was already equipped with all that stuff like 

[01:27:23] Eldar: that. 

[01:27:23] Joe: Disappointed to me, that was like, yeah. Yeah. To me, I had no problem with that. That's why we, we worked well together and I worked for him so many years.

[01:27:32] Um, so yeah, I guess you could say up upbringing and, uh, the way I, the way I had to go through all my jobs. Mm. 

[01:27:41] Eldar: But 

[01:27:41] Joe: they 

[01:27:41] Eldar: weren't, it's so, so would you say, Joe, would you say though, Joe, then, uh, those jobs were inevitable for you to choose because of the fact that you were, you were brought up this way, right?

[01:27:51] Where it's almost like it was a natural process of gravity gravitate you, gravitate, you gravitated towards that, basically, you, you were brainwashing to it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[01:27:58] Joe: I mean, I, I, I can agree with, with, uh, with that and, and saying like, you know. Uh, my idea of like maybe becoming a cop or becoming going to the military or, or, or being a fireman.

[01:28:11] Like I could say that brainwashing has, you know, the way you were brought up kind of has 

[01:28:18] Eldar: Oh, yeah. 

[01:28:18] Joe: Direction in which, which it throws you. 

[01:28:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:28:21] Joe: You know, you don't, but like, uh, I wanna be some silly artist that like, you know, stares at the wall all day when, when you've been like, you know, structured a certain way.

[01:28:30] Eldar: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. 

[01:28:31] Katherine: You're offending all artists, Joe. 

[01:28:33] Eldar: And would you say to some degree, Joe, you went against your own nature because you are like, like I said, when we were growing up, right. And obviously it was always the, the, the war between your dad keeping you strict and in line versus you being very silly, a prankster and a jokester, you know what I mean?

[01:28:46] Yeah. Which you still kept to some degree kept alive, you know what I mean? 

[01:28:50] Joe: Yeah. I, I, I think that was naturally in me regardless of, of of how I was. 

[01:28:55] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:28:56] Joe: Um, you know, forced to be, and it came out and I, and I, and I, I didn't limit it coming out only, only at times when I couldn't do it. Like, you know, let's IE like the, the police department.

[01:29:09] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:29:10] Joe: Uh, there's certain times when you just can't be a goofball, but like, you can when the, the DI's leave, no, nobody's looking. You just, 

[01:29:17] Toliy: you know, 

[01:29:18] Joe: or fire department was like perfect for me because that's the place where. I, I was able to let loose and that's when everyone realized I was crazy. 

[01:29:27] Toliy: Mm-hmm.

[01:29:28] Joe: Because of how much, you know, like pranking and having fun. I like, I like to have fun, 

[01:29:32] so. 

[01:29:32] Mike: Okay. Alright. Is it, is it like a, do you feel like there's a huge conflicting kind of thing where the part of you, like that's from your dad and then conflicting with like, who you are, I guess, I don't know, naturally are this more prankster, fun guy?

[01:29:46] Do you feel like that's causing like a con, like a constant or some kind of internal conflict? Cognitive dissonance? 

[01:29:54] Joe: Um, internally, like, there's times when I, I react or, or think about certain things and go like, oh man, this is directly from my father. 

[01:30:03] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:30:04] Joe: And, you know, I could, I could acknowledge it and maybe not like that.

[01:30:09] Oh man, that's how it, that's how it's making me automatically react or that's how it's automatically making me, you know, think like, for example, you know, uh, I told Mike this when we were at, uh, whole Foods, but Uber Eats, they, they tricked me. Uh, and, and it's nothing crazy. But, you know, when you, you fool me once, you know, shame on.

[01:30:34] You 

[01:30:35] Mike: can't, you can't say this on the podcast, Joey. What's going 

[01:30:38] Joe: on? These guys? 

[01:30:39] Mike: You pulled 

[01:30:40] Joe: the Raymonds? 

[01:30:41] Katherine: Yeah. Uh 

[01:30:41] Joe: oh. Every time. Every time, uh, you order something, you order food, they're like, Hey, uh, okay. This food's gonna get prepared. Do you wanna sign up for Uber one? You guys say no. And then it goes, oh, yeah.

[01:30:53] Okay. Is, is this the order you want? And you guys say Yes. Okay. And are you picking up? Yes. So it's like they, they try to trap you every time you order. Uh, so I automatically go, you could these sneaky little, you know, sneaky little guys. Uh, but I have to play their game every time I order. And I'm like, whatever.

[01:31:14] So then I'm with my son at the mall, I'm trying to order food, uh, for pickup at the mall, trying to make it like all work. And he's running all over the place. And I must have hit yes because the, do you wanna sign up for Uber one? It's only 9 99 a month, but it's like some stupid savings program. It's obviously no one wants it.

[01:31:34] That's why they try to trap you. So a month goes by, I didn't realize I got charged. A second month goes by, I see my phone, it says Uber one nine ninety nine. I go, what the hell? So it's like, oh man, they got me. I cancel it, I get, I get refunded for the, because I do you wanna pick it up? Sorry. I want my son, Lana's not here.

[01:31:56] Um, so then I call, I mean, I contact Uber and I'm like, I'm like, I want my, uh, my refund for last month. They're like, well, you already had a month worth of savings. Uh, we cannot refund you that money. I go, no, no, no. 

[01:32:11] Katherine: Oh no. 

[01:32:12] Joe: I said this was, I said, this was, uh. You guys tricked me and I, and I started Googling it.

[01:32:18] Mad people complained about this Of course. Specific thing. 

[01:32:21] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:32:21] Joe: They're just clicking. It was investig investigated by ftc. Like it's bigger than just, you know, my little issue. This has been brought, you know, brought down by, by FTC. So they got sued for it, yet they still do all these malpractices. Anyway, long story short, it's 9, 9 99.

[01:32:41] We're talking about, I'm on the phone texting back and forth with this chat. They wind up calling me, they wind up having an argument with me on the phone. What? Blah, blah, blah. An hour, an hour goes by. 'cause we were outside with Benny in the backyard and you know, Alana was, Alana was with them. I was with them.

[01:33:01] And then I go to get, get snacks for everyone and I come back out like a half hour later and Alana's like, the hell are you doing for a half hour? I was like, oh, sorry. I was on the phone with them chatting. He's like, it's 9 99. I said, I, 

[01:33:19] Katherine: oh, 

[01:33:20] Joe: I don't give a shit. It's principal at this point. You know, like these guys, these guys cheated me and they, they think they can get away with it.

[01:33:27] And I'm like, I'll fight you to the end so I don't care how much it is. Uh, and then it was all said and done. Yeah, we go to the playroom, let's go once it's all said and done. Uh, they basically told me to go GTFO, you know, and I just, I just got the, the charge reversed with my credit card, you know? Mm-hmm.

[01:33:47] Which took like two seconds. 

[01:33:49] Eldar: Yeah. Which, 

[01:33:50] Joe: uh, I could done in the, I could have done in the first place. Yes. Right. Of course. Just contacted my credit card company, but here I am. 

[01:33:56] Eldar: It's trying to, trying to scold the, the, what's his name? A, a conglomerate. Yeah. A huge conglomerate. 

[01:34:01] Joe: Yeah. 

[01:34:02] Eldar: And trying to teach. Yeah.

[01:34:03] Joe: We can't go over there. They're not busy. Yeah. Uh, I'm trying to like, I'm trying to Right a wrong about a criminal that basically is not gonna listen to me. It's like trying to 

[01:34:14] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:34:14] Joe: Talk to a, uh, you know, a drug addict, like you shouldn't be taking these drugs. Yeah. Alright. Good luck with that. 

[01:34:20] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:34:21] Joe: But here I am doing arraignment, you know, like, yeah.

[01:34:24] This is something I've seen my father do. 

[01:34:27] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:34:27] Joe: What's up Benny? A tractor. 

[01:34:32] Toliy: My grandma got, 

[01:34:33] Joe: ill, 

[01:34:34] Toliy: got charged of the Russian store for, for a bar of chocolate that she didn't buy. 

[01:34:38] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:34:38] Toliy: And she, and it was like hot outside. 

[01:34:40] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:34:40] Toliy: And she was around the corner from the house. 

[01:34:43] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:34:43] Toliy: And she walked over a mile back each way to go get it reversed.

[01:34:47] Four. And it was like, there you go. It was like $2 and change. And then she came back and she felt like shit, she's like almost passed out, but she sat on like a bench on the way back to like rest, and she starts looking at the receipt and she's like, oh, Choco bar. You know? She's like, I didn't buy 

[01:35:02] Katherine: you chocolate.

[01:35:02] Probably had to have a chocolate bar to, so 

[01:35:04] Toliy: she 

[01:35:04] Katherine: walked to feel better 

[01:35:05] Toliy: sick. 

[01:35:07] Joe: Um, so, 

[01:35:07] Eldar: you know, 

[01:35:08] Joe: that's, uh, that's something my father's done. I've watched him, I've, I've yelled at him and told him, like, 

[01:35:13] Eldar: for, for doing it 

[01:35:14] Joe: Yeah. Waste so much time. Like, and, and you know, the argument is going on deaf ears. I'm like, your time is worth so much more.

[01:35:22] And then, and then I just did it the other day and, you know, I'm aware of this stuff. I preach this stuff and then I get caught, you know? 

[01:35:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:35:33] Joe: So, so that just goes to show you that it is built in and it does come from, you know, the genes, uh, and what you remember or learned subconsciously or just like, you know, being around it, and then now that's kind of like your traits, but at least like I could catch it or, you know, 

[01:35:52] Eldar: after the fact.

[01:35:54] Joe: Yeah. 

[01:35:54] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:35:57] Joe: So, so that, that's, that's your answer. Okay. I guess I feel like the structure or the discipline comes mm-hmm. You know, with certain things then, uh, and that, you know, but I, I do try to take off the bad stuff and, and not be as, as much as I can, not be doing the things that I know were not good for me, that don't serve a purpose, you know?

[01:36:19] Mm-hmm. That's good. As I go and breathing Benny and, and then soon to be, you know, our daughter coming in, I kind of want to have things in place where I'm not doing, I'm not repeating these things that I was brought up, like 

[01:36:35] Eldar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[01:36:35] Joe: And we're, we're, we're doing things a certain way. Mm-hmm. And listening to what you guys are talking about with like phones and tv, we use TV for educational purposes and we, we do think that, that he could benefit from a lot of things from it.

[01:36:52] We don't want it to be like, he wants to watch it all the time and then he wants to watch it all day because Yeah, no, of course. Behavioral issues with, you know what I mean? 

[01:37:01] Eldar: Yeah, no, we, our thing was whole, the whole thing was about just maybe using that as a, you know, at the times where like, you know, you need that relief or you need that time, you know, and it's okay, you know, like you don't, you guys don't have to feel guilty about it because there was a strict rule or something, you know, that you guys agreed upon, you know?

[01:37:18] No. So 

[01:37:19] Joe: no, no. We, we both agree. Like if, if one of us, if it's just us, we'll turn the TV on. If we have to get dinner cooked or Yeah. We have to do stuff, um, if it's just one of us. Mm-hmm. But when it's two of us, I go, there's no, there's no real reason here that we should be, turn the TV on. I did it as a, to, to prove to her like, you know, silently.

[01:37:41] To turn the TV on and just still not even acknowledging if I turn the TV on, nor the UK that I turn the TV on. And I said, all right, Benny, I guess it's you in the TV tonight, I'm gonna go cook. 

[01:37:52] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:37:52] Joe: You know? Yeah. And then, yeah, and part of what Mike said, there was a lot built up. I've been watching this for the past, like month, and I didn't say anything.

[01:38:01] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:38:02] Joe: Until it finally gotta the point where like, I threw it at her. 

[01:38:05] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:38:06] Joe: At this, at this point in time, I, I kind of just, I had enough and I, I was kind of trying to give her, her, her time to like, be on the phone. I'm like, all right. I'm, I'm obviously noticing she's, she's on the phone a lot. 

[01:38:19] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:38:19] Joe: And sometimes it is work stuff, sometimes it's not.

[01:38:23] Yeah. You know, uh, for the most part, I just see her WhatsApp chatting with the girlfriends, like 

[01:38:27] Katherine: mm-hmm. 

[01:38:28] Joe: You know, took a picture of Benny wearing something and now it's right back to conversation of like, you know, like rather than, rather than being with Benny at the moment, she just wants to talk to her friends about Benny.

[01:38:41] You know what I mean? Like, I get it, but like, we want, I don't want Benny to stare at us and just see us holding phones, you know what I mean? 

[01:38:49] Eldar: No, no. For sure. 

[01:38:50] Joe: They want when, when they're looking for us. 

[01:38:52] Eldar: Yeah, for sure. And that whole discussion wasn't about the fact that we disagree with that. Obviously we, we just, you know, uh, trying to raise awareness on the fact that sometimes we set up rules that are very strict and hard to follow.

[01:39:06] Um, 

[01:39:07] Joe: yeah. 

[01:39:07] Eldar: For, for us as well, because, you know, sometimes we do need that time on the phone or whatever, you know? 

[01:39:13] Joe: Yeah, I agree. 

[01:39:14] Eldar: Yeah. So 

[01:39:16] Joe: I think, uh, I think you're right on that, on that end too, where we both, we both sometimes need to just walk away from, from the, the stress of, of doing what we're doing. We wanna, 

[01:39:27] Eldar: yeah.

[01:39:27] We 

[01:39:27] Joe: want that break. 

[01:39:28] Eldar: Yeah, for sure. I think definitely if you guys fight for, for that independent freedom to have fun, enjoy yourself and kind of de, you know, de-stress, I think that you'll do, you'll have a lot better decision making in those moments. 

[01:39:41] Joe: Of course. 

[01:39:42] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:39:42] Joe: Mm-hmm. Of course. And, and, and I, I acknowledge too that she's, she's pregnant, she can't stress, she can't leave the house much.

[01:39:48] She's stressed. I get to leave and be physical where she can't do that. She's not in her right body. 

[01:39:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:39:54] Joe: I get it. And you know, last night it was, it was me being frustrated. Mm-hmm. The food was burning because I hit the wrong button on the stove. 

[01:40:02] Eldar: Yeah, 

[01:40:02] Joe: yeah. You know, and like, it, it kind of pissed me off even more.

[01:40:05] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:40:05] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:40:06] Joe: Life was happening, so, you know, it was just, it was, yeah, it was, did you 

[01:40:09] Eldar: guys make up, did you apologize? And now you're gonna give her grace. Yeah. Okay. That's good. 

[01:40:13] Joe: Yeah. You know, uh, and I'm gonna talk to her again when she comes home tonight. She's, she's at like a, a work thing? Uh mm-hmm. She's training.

[01:40:22] Eldar: Okay. All right. 

[01:40:24] Joe: Um, 

[01:40:25] Eldar: anything else guys you wanna ask Joe? No. Good. Joe, you wanna say anything else or did we do good? 

[01:40:32] Joe: No, I think, uh, this was a great podcast. It was, it was definitely good, especially if I, if I threw the topic out there and you, I was able to listen the whole time and, and reanalyze what I was thinking or going through.

[01:40:44] Eldar: Okay, good. 

[01:40:45] Joe: So, uh, 

[01:40:45] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:40:46] Joe: Yeah. And I think timing you, like you said, you, you've worked with me on this on more occasions, on other relationships I've had, and I think, uh, affecting it is, is key. You know, getting better at like, you know, knowing when to say nothing. And also all these, uh, all these expectations.

[01:41:10] Um, and, and like holding myself certain, uh, yeah. 

[01:41:15] Eldar: Standards, 

[01:41:15] Joe: strict guidelines. Yeah. I mean, you should just like sweat, don't sweat the small stuff and, and worry about the 

[01:41:22] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:41:22] Joe: Real big thing. 

[01:41:23] Eldar: That's why keep, keep getting those, win those small wins come out, you know, and hang out and, and so we can raise more awareness so you can have more fun and then, you know, the outcomes are gonna be better.

[01:41:34] Joe: Yeah, for sure. 

[01:41:35] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:41:35] Joe: Most likely. See you next weekend. 

[01:41:37] Eldar: Sounds good. All right, Joe, thank you for the call. 

[01:41:40] Joe: Thanks for the call. Thanks for the pod 

[01:41:42] Eldar: for sure. Joe, 

[01:41:42] Toliy: can I Joe, you, Joe, I just read that, um. Adobe has been hit by the US Department of Justice. Um, they, they've, they, they like violated like, uh, consumer protection laws and, and they have to pay a $75 million fine to settle a lawsuit claiming that they made it too difficult for customers to cancel their subscriptions.

[01:42:02] Eldar: Sick. 

[01:42:03] Toliy: 75 million though. 

[01:42:04] Eldar: That's not bad. Nothing. Yeah. A couple of dollars. 

[01:42:07] Toliy: Making it too difficult to cancel. 

[01:42:09] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:42:09] Mike: Oh yeah. Sick. It always, um 

[01:42:11] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[01:42:13] Mike: I think a, yeah, like in, in everything that we spoke about, I think a, a big thing is I think probably happens all the time. The big stuff. The small stuff we sweat, like the small stuff.

[01:42:26] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:42:27] Mike: But we don't emphasize enough the important stuff. 

[01:42:28] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:42:29] Mike: Like, 

[01:42:29] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:42:30] Mike: I'm not saying just let Benny watch TV 24 7. 

[01:42:32] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:42:33] Mike: But if Benny watched TV sometimes. 

[01:42:35] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:42:35] Mike: Right. It's not. Not the end of the world, but if he Benny sees his parents fighting and arguing, yeah. That's gonna be a lot more detrimental.

[01:42:43] Eldar: Correct. Yes. 

[01:42:44] Mike: You know, or Benny's not instilled the right values. 

[01:42:47] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:42:47] Mike: You know, but a distraction with a TV or a tablet 

[01:42:50] Eldar: for the moment to just kind of finish the dinner. Yeah. 

[01:42:52] Mike: Finish the dinner and that. Yeah. 

[01:42:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:42:54] Mike: And I think a lot of times, 

[01:42:55] Eldar: yeah, but you see, even he said it, he wanted to kind of rub it in her face.

[01:42:59] Mike: Yes, yes, yes. 

[01:43:00] Eldar: And that was the key too, where it's like that that shows that there was a buildup. 

[01:43:04] Joe: Yeah. 

[01:43:04] Eldar: Like you said. 

[01:43:05] Joe: Yeah, of course. 

[01:43:06] Eldar: You know. So he finally wanted to kind of let that out. Where my challenge to him is like, Hey, find the right time to be able to, was 

[01:43:13] Mike: burning. 

[01:43:13] Toliy: And he was 

[01:43:14] Eldar: working hard probably.

[01:43:14] It was stressful. It was stressful. It was stressful. It was a stressful moment. Also 

[01:43:17] Mike: slow cooker. So like, 

[01:43:18] Eldar: oh my God, let's not talk about that. 

[01:43:20] Mike: Took him three hours to cook one, one. 

[01:43:22] Eldar: Pasta 

[01:43:22] Mike: sauce. I got chuck 

[01:43:25] Toliy: guys. 

[01:43:25] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Yeah. So I, yeah, I mean, there's a lot here. I think we discussed a lot of these things.

[01:43:31] So what are some of our final thoughts? Unless you guys have something else to add to it. 

[01:43:36] Toliy: No, no. 1, 1, 1 thing I wanted to add. 

[01:43:38] Eldar: Okay. 

[01:43:38] Toliy: That I feel like, I mean this is true, I think for like people and for like animals, right? Like, like you taught these, for example, these dogs, a lot of things when they were really young.

[01:43:50] Yeah. Right. And like, sure it was not easy at that time, but it'd be much harder, I think, to, to teach particular habits or tricks now than it was back then. But now these things are like ingrained into how they actually are, you know? And I think it's the same thing with the people too, that like the older that, that you get.

[01:44:07] The harder it is to like Yeah. Like admit wrong and to like 

[01:44:10] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:44:10] Toliy: Um, learn a lot of these like things, you know? Yeah. That like, yeah. If you got taught that way from the beginning, then it would be completely different. But oftentimes we're, uh, like a reflection of our parents, like flawed ways of doing things.

[01:44:24] Eldar: Correct. 

[01:44:25] Toliy: That we're just passed down. And only when we're older is when we get the opportunity to realize like, what happened, think about it, and then start like untangling those, 

[01:44:35] Eldar: those webs 

[01:44:36] Toliy: Yeah. Those like wires, right? Mm-hmm. Of, of like how we go about things. But yeah, it's super hard because like yeah.

[01:44:42] Like if you look at any of our, our, our parents were like, a good portion of us is how they, you know, operate and act. And only can we like slowly chisel up the things that like they pass on to us that actually are not good things. Yeah. You know, or that like, don't, don't serve us. 

[01:45:01] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:45:01] Toliy: But that's like a, like a long and slow, uh, process.

[01:45:06] Eldar: It is. It is. Yeah. 

[01:45:07] Toliy: You know? 

[01:45:08] Eldar: Yeah. So what do you suggest, 

[01:45:12] Toliy: you know, like, well, the thing is that in like a lot of these things, it helps to play like a, like life ping pong. 

[01:45:19] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:45:20] Toliy: You know, of like bouncing things off others and then to like, share things with others so that they can challenge you and then they could do all of those things.

[01:45:28] And I think that like, just being challenged on like a recurring basis prevents a lot of. Poor long term decision making. 

[01:45:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:45:38] Toliy: Because you get challenge, right? Yeah. You have like a fly swatter almost. 

[01:45:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:45:43] Toliy: You know, but if you don't have that, if you just kind of are like more on your own 

[01:45:48] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[01:45:48] Toliy: Then, um, it's a lot easier to set yourself up for, for, for failure because you don't have like a jury of people or a judge to, to like, to like, hear, hear, hear your case.

[01:46:02] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:46:02] Toliy: You know? 

[01:46:02] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:46:03] Toliy: Yeah. Um, but I don't think doing that is like very, um, very much like accepted in general in society. I feel like, like especially for, for like, uh, men, I feel like you need to figure it out. You need to have things, 

[01:46:19] Eldar: you have to show you have your shit in order. 

[01:46:21] Toliy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that, you know?

[01:46:23] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:46:23] Toliy: And like, um, I feel like it's hard to, to like, well, not, not that it's hard, it's just unorthodox 

[01:46:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:46:32] Toliy: To do that. 

[01:46:33] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. Um, my thoughts on this whole thing is that, uh, I mean, at least Joe's situation to reflected on it, right. I think that because of the fact that he already knew, uh, the, the response that he was gonna get back after the way he expressed himself, right?

[01:46:53] Yeah. It all points to the fact that he was already building up a storm internally. Right? 

[01:46:59] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:46:59] Eldar: And, uh, it was almost like a, a revengeful thing. Where he is like, alright, cool. Like now I'm gonna just kind of give it to you, you know? 

[01:47:07] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:47:08] Eldar: Um, and that all points to the fact that he doesn't have any control in his relationship or the outcomes that, uh, that he is seeking for.

[01:47:18] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:47:18] Eldar: Because these things turn out the way they do, and then he has to then, you know, reflect on them and like, oh, where is this trait coming from? Is that from my dad? Is that from my jobs? If, if, you know, who am I kind of thing, you know? Yeah. He, um, and then necessary reflections, but nonetheless, he's not getting what he wants out of it.

[01:47:35] Right. He's not getting the response, he's not getting the 

[01:47:38] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:47:38] Eldar: Modified behavior. Right. He's getting more stressed, you know? So I think that it's very hard to, by default to be in a state of mind where it's like, okay, cool. Like I, I don't think I have my life to get, uh, uh, figured out. Yeah. You can't be that like that.

[01:47:54] Like you have to have something figured out as a man. Mm-hmm. 

[01:47:56] Toliy: So 

[01:47:57] Eldar: you can't come across to your wife and like, kind of like be fucking wondering all over the place. You know what I mean? But I think there strength in that if you do find a way to say, um, to leave certain conversations. Inconclusive.

[01:48:11] Inconclusive without conclusions. 

[01:48:13] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:48:14] Eldar: I think there strength in that, you know what I mean? Where like, hey, just like, this is a good idea, you know, we should do this, but 

[01:48:21] Toliy: let's see. 

[01:48:23] Eldar: Correct. Right. That, that doesn't make you weak. That makes you wise. Where it's like, listen, this is a good idea. I think we can do this.

[01:48:31] We should strive for that. That should be maybe the bar, but we don't know. We might not fucking get enough sleep today. You know, therefore we can't cook dinner at that time. 

[01:48:40] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:48:40] Eldar: Or whatever it is, right? 

[01:48:42] Toliy: Yeah. But I feel 

[01:48:43] Eldar: like 

[01:48:43] Toliy: it's not a weakness for a lot of people. 

[01:48:44] Eldar: I know. I know. It's, it's, it's a, you you wanna push for that though, you know?

[01:48:49] So that's what I would advise for him, where it's like, look, look, Joe, you know, I, I get it that the way his mind works, a lot of times it's strict in order to set up a very controlled environment to get the outcomes that he wants. 

[01:49:00] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:49:01] Eldar: And they're not bad. I don't think he's ill willed 

[01:49:04] Mike: No. 

[01:49:04] Eldar: In these things.

[01:49:05] And obviously when he communicates these things to his wife, he's good at communicating me enough for her to agree to these things. 

[01:49:12] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:49:13] Eldar: You know what I mean? But the problem is Right, Joe's an accountability police. 

[01:49:20] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:49:20] Eldar: Or then when he sees wrongdoing, right. He's a cop. Yeah. Right. 

[01:49:25] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:49:26] Eldar: If you see something, you say something, you know, that he goes to act.

[01:49:30] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:49:30] Eldar: And that's like already conditioned response from, like you said, maybe from his DNA, 

[01:49:34] Mike: yeah. 

[01:49:34] Eldar: From his dad, his upbringing from his careers. 

[01:49:36] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:49:37] Eldar: You know, and now he's got a scold, he's gotta hold the other person accountable for it. Mm-hmm. 

[01:49:40] Mike: So 

[01:49:40] Eldar: it's a very rigid response. It's a very rigid person, you know?

[01:49:44] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:49:45] Eldar: So life is gonna continue to happen to him, you know? So what is my fucking suggestion, bro? You know, I mean. Continue to do what you do and, and continue to see that it causes you pain. 

[01:49:59] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:50:00] Eldar: And do it long enough to be like, yo, I, I think I got it wrong. 

[01:50:03] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:50:03] Eldar: Lemme try something different. Yeah.

[01:50:05] Let me share, lemme start sharing with people, with friends and stuff like that. And then maybe somebody else can give you some different input or challenge you in the way you do. Because a lot of times, right, like Catherine said, Hey, I tried everything. 

[01:50:16] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:50:17] Eldar: People will say, I tried everything. Yeah. But what have you tried?

[01:50:22] What an arrogant thing. I mean, everything, you know what I'm saying? And you can come across a conversation where you realize like, oh shit, that's a new perspective. I haven't tried that. Let try that. You know? And I think totally provided that perspective, at least when it comes to sleep. 

[01:50:39] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:50:40] Eldar: You know, so that's my suggestion, you know?

[01:50:45] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:50:47] Eldar: Again, it always comes down to the fact that you continue if you wanna learn through pain, alright, keep testing your theory, bro. 

[01:50:54] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:50:54] Eldar: For everyone, not just for Joe or Joe's example, you know, for everyone. 

[01:50:59] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:51:00] Eldar: You want more pain. If that's the way you learn, do it. You know, it's hard to get back to the, to the thing of removing.

[01:51:08] I totally said, Hey, I didn't, I didn't sleep well enough. I don't have enough time. Now I'm rushing. That's not what I want to do. That causes me pain, anxiety. I'm removing Jim. 

[01:51:17] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:51:17] Eldar: People don't wanna remove Jim. People wanna fucking bull through Jim. Yeah. Nah, nah, nah. Show fucking character. Be gritty and shit like that.

[01:51:24] You know what I mean? Catherine wants to check all these boxes and make sure that, you 

[01:51:28] Toliy: know Yeah. Society also, I feel like it, um, it shames you. 

[01:51:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:51:32] Toliy: When you don't like bull through things. 

[01:51:34] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:51:34] Toliy: Like, it's like, oh, what are you soft? Or like, yeah. Plus, or like, you know, like, who cares? You know, like, 

[01:51:41] Mike: yeah.

[01:51:42] Toliy: Yeah. Like, it, it, it, it makes it seem like you're like less than if you don't 

[01:51:46] Mike: Yeah. If you don't bow through. 

[01:51:47] Toliy: Yeah. If you don't bow 

[01:51:48] Mike: through. It's the power application. You gotta bow through when you actually supposed to bow through. But most people don't know and don't supposed to calm the fuck down when you Yes.

[01:51:55] But you said you both correct. And that's again, the timing, the understanding. 

[01:51:59] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:51:59] Mike: That's the whole 

[01:52:00] Eldar: thing. It's all backwards. 

[01:52:01] Mike: It's all backwards. 

[01:52:01] Eldar: It's all backwards. 

[01:52:02] Mike: Yeah. It's all backwards. 

[01:52:03] Eldar: Yeah. There's times when you need to bow through. 

[01:52:05] Mike: Yes. 

[01:52:05] Eldar: Because you've, you know, learned something. You've understood the, that you're pussy about something and you wanna break that pussy.

[01:52:11] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:52:12] Eldar: And then you'd go through That's right. But not in the times where you actually need to rest or relax. Mm-hmm. Babe, what are your final thoughts on this? How do you feel about this podcast? How did you resonate? What, what are you reflecting on and did it touch you? 

[01:52:26] Toliy: What the hell? 

[01:52:26] Eldar: What the hell And will you come to and will you come to Totally for advice on sleep?

[01:52:33] And do you think that he's got it figured out? And if so, was it profound enough for you to seek that out? 

[01:52:39] Katherine: I do think he's got it. 

[01:52:40] Eldar: Okay. 

[01:52:41] Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:52:42] Eldar: Do you want it? 

[01:52:42] Katherine: I'm happy for him. I do. You 

[01:52:45] Eldar: do want it, did it spark enough interest and curiosity for you to actually find out? 

[01:52:53] Katherine: I think I'm getting there. 

[01:52:55] Eldar: Okay.

[01:52:55] That's a no, but that's okay. 

[01:52:58] Katherine: But it's not like a hard no. Yeah. 'cause I have to undo, there's, there's undoing that have to happen Yeah. Before I get there. 

[01:53:06] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:53:06] Katherine: You know? Um, but no, I, I obviously, I see, I see the difference for him. 

[01:53:12] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:53:12] Katherine: It's very positive change. And 

[01:53:14] Eldar: obviously it was along in the, 

[01:53:16] Katherine: I think this is like the, the a totally po 2.0 right now.

[01:53:19] Yeah. That we're seeing it's the best version of him that he's feeling so good, um, just about himself health wise, just everything, you know. 

[01:53:27] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:53:28] Katherine: So, no, it's great to see that, um, you know, and it's always like that, that reminder that like, yeah, you know, you feel like this can't happen for you. You can feel stuck or whatever, but like, you know, I've been there, I've learned that for myself as well, that, you know, like, you know, you just because you feel good or you're down now doesn't mean that, you know, like tomorrow's not great or that you can be better than this.

[01:53:50] So, you know, um, in terms of that, yeah. I mean there's, there's just a lot, a lot to think about because it's, um, I relate to this a lot, you know, this entire topic today was very relatable for me. Um, yeah. There's, there's just a lot, a lot of things that we create for ourselves. And when Joe was talking about his father, excuse me.

[01:54:13] It re it reminded me of exactly how I grew up. I had two really strict parents. My mom is very overbearing and she's very rigid, and she doesn't like change. She doesn't like interruption because she's a very anxious person. And so the way totally you described it mm-hmm. Of like when, when the routine or the thing that you like, like thing to happen.

[01:54:32] Exactly. 

[01:54:33] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:54:33] Katherine: It kind of just creates instability and chaos or anxiety. 

[01:54:36] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:54:37] Katherine: I grew up in that kind of household. Yeah. And my father was not like my mom, but he was extremely disciplined and very, he's very, very disciplined. So I grew up in that kind of household. And if I didn't do something a certain way, then there's like disappointment.

[01:54:55] Like, what is it that expectation? Well, what, yeah, Joe said it really well. That's exactly the, the, the household that I grew up in. So this is embedded in, in me since I was born. And it's, it's tough to undo, you know? 

[01:55:08] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:55:09] Katherine: There's that almost, almost guilt that I get up, I get this chance to wake up and almost do whatever I want, and I literally can't do that, you know?

[01:55:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:55:20] Katherine: So it's a, it's a paradox. 

[01:55:22] Eldar: It is. 

[01:55:22] Katherine: You know, so I've got, I've gotta crack that code. 

[01:55:25] Eldar: Yeah. You know? 

[01:55:26] Toliy: Yeah. I feel like it's a crazy, like, um, yeah, it's a crazy paint. It's a crazy thing because like, 

[01:55:30] Katherine: it's a crazy 

[01:55:31] Toliy: thing. You're the best opportunity ever. 

[01:55:32] Eldar: Yeah, 

[01:55:33] Katherine: exactly. And 

[01:55:33] Toliy: realize, 

[01:55:34] Katherine: realize, and I don't know. 

[01:55:35] Toliy: And, and you 

[01:55:35] Katherine: can't do 

[01:55:36] Toliy: it.

[01:55:36] Like, 

[01:55:36] Katherine: and I feel bad about that too. I think about this all the time, and then it makes me feel bad about myself. Because of that, you know, so it's, it's, it's, it's interesting. So I guess that's what's on my mind. Those are my final thoughts. 

[01:55:50] Mike: Okay. Thank you. 

[01:55:51] Katherine: Yeah, 

[01:55:52] Eldar: Mike? 

[01:55:53] Mike: Yeah. Um, I'm gonna go back to like, what I was, what I was saying earlier about like, uh, the duality of Joe as I know him and I think you know him as well and most of us know Joe.

[01:56:04] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:56:06] Mike: And I think probably most people have decided that this is like, oh, not consciously decided, but like accepted that this is the way it's gonna be. Right? Like, you kind of have to certain good qualities 

[01:56:21] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[01:56:21] Mike: Right? From your parents or certain belief systems or rules that you set for yourself that are not checked.

[01:56:28] And then you have like the other side of you who likes to be fun, enjoy yourself, be silly. Right. And I think that that's like a huge, huge disparity between those two. They're like completely polar opposites. Mm-hmm. And I think for, for a long time it rules people's lives. 

[01:56:47] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:56:48] Mike: Um, and. I think like now Joe's a father and he's raising Benny and I think one thing maybe he could think about is like, hey, like his father passed onto these things that he's now suffering through.

[01:57:01] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:57:02] Mike: Right. 

[01:57:02] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:57:03] Mike: He's deal, he's trying to shake them off and it's taken, it's obviously proven very hard. 

[01:57:07] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:57:07] Mike: I think for everybody's, you know, it's been proving to be very hard. One thing I think that could think about is like, Hey, what do you want to pass on to your son? You know? Yeah. The guy that we know that the good side.

[01:57:20] Yeah. And we obviously know both sides, but Yeah. The side that everybody can agree. 

[01:57:25] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:57:25] Mike: Joe can agree. He prefer to be more fun. 

[01:57:27] Eldar: Of course. And 

[01:57:28] Mike: course, just because you're doesn't mean you're right. 

[01:57:31] Eldar: Unanimously. 

[01:57:32] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:57:32] Eldar: We all agree. 

[01:57:33] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. And uh, I think maybe that'll make him think about, Hey, what do you want to pass on to Benny?

[01:57:38] Like, 

[01:57:39] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:57:39] Mike: Do you want to pass on the rigid side? Decide that's unchecked. Unquestioned, 

[01:57:42] Eldar: yeah. 

[01:57:43] Mike: Decide that you call your dad out for doing the stupid shit you yourself are doing. 

[01:57:47] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:57:48] Mike: You know, do you want to pass that on or not? And I think that's, that's like a, that's a big thing. And I think, not just for Joe, but for all of us.

[01:57:56] Well, I'll speak for myself, but I would like to prefer to do things that are fun. 

[01:57:59] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:58:00] Mike: And not the fears, the insecurities, the anxieties that I created for myself. 

[01:58:03] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:58:04] Mike: Or that I was shaped because of my parents. 

[01:58:06] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:58:06] Mike: No blame to them. Yeah. Obviously. But now it's on me to find out. 

[01:58:11] Eldar: As an adult, as 

[01:58:12] Mike: a thinker, as an adult, as a thinker.

[01:58:14] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:58:14] Mike: Do I wanna live by these rules? 

[01:58:16] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:58:16] Mike: Or I wanna live by my rules, which are not rules. 

[01:58:18] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:58:19] Mike: Which is more driven to have fun, enjoy myself. 

[01:58:22] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:58:22] Mike: Be who I am and my true nature, because we all developed like the polar opposites, right. Of this rule kind of person that our parents raised us to be driven by whatever.

[01:58:34] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:58:35] Mike: We all have our fun sides and I think we should gravitate as much as possible towards that and recognize the times that we're moving away from that. 

[01:58:47] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:58:47] Mike: You know, because I think that's, that is again, a huge cause of stressor in life. 

[01:58:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:58:54] Mike: The indecisiveness of who you are, who you want to be.

[01:58:56] And I think we battle with that moment all the time. 

[01:58:59] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:58:59] Mike: Oh, you dad set a rule, you gotta wake up early. 

[01:59:01] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:59:02] Mike: But you like to sleep in. Yeah. And you're gonna fight that battle every single night. Yeah. And then there's a million different battles. You just fight constantly going through your head every single day nonstop.

[01:59:12] Is this good for me? Is this bad for me? I wanna do this, do I wanna do this? Yeah. It just, it just never ends. And that's suffering. 

[01:59:19] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:59:19] Mike: Nonstop suffering. 

[01:59:20] Eldar: Yeah. Turmoil. Turmo 

[01:59:21] Toliy: turmoil. Yeah. I remember also like when we used to play basketball on the weekend, like early in the morning. 

[01:59:25] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:59:26] Toliy: You remember, I would ask you like, the day before, like, hey, like we're bong in the morning.

[01:59:29] Eldar: You're ready? Yeah, yeah, 

[01:59:30] Toliy: yeah. And then LER would be like, yeah. You know, if I feel good. 

[01:59:32] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:59:33] Toliy: You know? 

[01:59:33] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:59:34] Toliy: Like he would, I didn't know why I would ask him, like if we're gonna play or not. 

[01:59:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:59:38] Toliy: And like, I know that he wants to play 

[01:59:40] Katherine: and you probably always get the same answer. Right? 

[01:59:41] Toliy: Yeah. I literally always got the same answer.

[01:59:43] Like I, obviously, I know that he wants to play, but I also know it's only if 

[01:59:47] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:59:47] Toliy: You, you get your sleep, you go on, you go to bed on time. 

[01:59:50] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:59:50] Toliy: But if you're gonna bed at like one, two in the morning, you're not gonna wake 

[01:59:52] Katherine: up at 

[01:59:53] Toliy: 7:00 AM 

[01:59:53] Katherine: Yeah. And, and remember at those times. 

[01:59:55] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:59:56] Katherine: Um, he like, you know, have, have, have a drink or two a 

[02:00:00] Eldar: during 

[02:00:01] Katherine: the podcast at the two.

[02:00:02] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:00:03] Toliy: Sometimes we locked a lot. 

[02:00:04] Eldar: Yeah. Five 

[02:00:06] Mike: or six. 

[02:00:06] Toliy: Yeah. Sometimes it would do 

[02:00:08] Mike: nice damage. 

[02:00:09] Toliy: Yeah. Like Eldar would have to get his sleep. You'd definitely have to pick, not be hung over, pick up breakfast before. 

[02:00:15] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:00:16] Toliy: You're not going without a bagel. 

[02:00:17] Eldar: And the first game spot is gonna be a throw. 

[02:00:18] Toliy: Yeah. And the first game is like, pick up Steve, guaranteed loss.

[02:00:21] Like, uh, you know, 

[02:00:22] Mike: first game of the law is guaranteed. Yeah. You guys already understood the routine. 

[02:00:25] Toliy: Yeah. 

[02:00:25] Mike: Yeah, yeah, 

[02:00:26] Toliy: yeah. You know, but you didn't say like, yeah, I'm definitely going even though like, when, when, when I was asking you, like, I definitely ignored all of those things 

[02:00:33] Joe: you 

[02:00:33] Toliy: had for myself. 

[02:00:33] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:00:34] Toliy: It was not like, Hey, if I get, no matter what, I would wake up sometimes I'm like a zombie.

[02:00:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:00:38] Toliy: And I would still go. 

[02:00:39] Eldar: Still go. Yeah. 

[02:00:40] Toliy: You know, if I went to bed at like one or two, didn't matter, like I'd still go And you, you would always gimme the same answer every time I ask you. Yeah. We'll see if I wake up, you know, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that. Yeah, I know. And I, and I, I, I, I would always think like, the fuck, do you mean like we got a ball in the morning?

[02:00:53] Whatcha talking about, you know, like, 

[02:00:55] Eldar: yeah. Why you not shawan about this? We gotta, yeah. We gotta win. We gotta go kick some ass. 

[02:00:59] Toliy: Yeah, right. 

[02:01:00] Eldar: Yeah, 

[02:01:00] Toliy: yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, you, you like sit, like then, then for example, you, you always respect yourself that I I gotta get my sleep. 

[02:01:07] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:01:07] Toliy: I need my breakfast and then I'll play.

[02:01:09] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:01:09] Toliy: Because, because then you also knew if I got the, if you, if you didn't get your breakfast and you didn't get your sleep Yeah. You're not gonna play well and you're not gonna enjoy yourself 

[02:01:16] Eldar: regardless. You're not gonna have fun. Yeah, exactly. 

[02:01:17] Toliy: You know? 

[02:01:17] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:01:18] Toliy: But if those conditions are met, for example 

[02:01:20] Eldar: mm-hmm.

[02:01:20] Toliy: Then you would do it. But Yeah. If you went to bed late or something Yeah. Or you drank, gonna be like, yeah, I'm not gonna go. 

[02:01:25] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[02:01:26] Toliy: Because you're not gonna enjoy yourself to begin with, but like that's already you knowing this in advance when this happens and not needing to constantly test this theory.

[02:01:34] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:01:35] Toliy: That I feel like a lot of people need to constantly test. 

[02:01:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:01:38] Toliy: Where they try to bolt through it and they try to do things that like. They're not supposed to be doing. 

[02:01:43] Eldar: Yep. 

[02:01:43] Toliy: You know, so, 

[02:01:44] Mike: but, but that's sometimes a lot of times part of learning. 

[02:01:48] Eldar: It 

[02:01:48] Toliy: is part of 

[02:01:48] Eldar: learning. 

[02:01:49] Mike: Yeah. It's, you didn't learn that off the gate possibly.

[02:01:51] I don't know. Like you didn't just, oh, 

[02:01:52] Eldar: come on man. 

[02:01:52] Mike: You know, 

[02:01:53] Eldar: I tested that theory many times. I hit my head against 

[02:01:55] Mike: the 

[02:01:55] Eldar: same wall many 

[02:01:56] Mike: times. Come percent. Yeah. 

[02:01:58] Eldar: This is also a learning process 

[02:01:59] Mike: for 

[02:01:59] me. 

[02:01:59] Eldar: It's also 

[02:02:00] Mike: Yeah, exactly. 

[02:02:00] Eldar: It just made more refined now. Yeah. And you see the result of it. But 

[02:02:03] Mike: yeah. 

[02:02:04] Eldar: You know, there was times where I was doing stupid shit.

[02:02:07] Mike: Yeah, 

[02:02:08] Eldar: of course. You know what I mean? But, well, thank you guys. This was great yet again. 

[02:02:12] Katherine: Yeah. Great topic. Thanks, Joe.