205. To catch a Hoarder

Is your cluttered space a sign of a creative mind, or a psychological "limbo land" you're using to avoid finality?

In this intense deep dive, the group breaks down the fine line between being a collector and a hoarder. We explore the "processing failure" that leads to physical clutter and how mental hoarding—the accumulation of loose ends and unfinished goals—inevitably spills over into our living spaces. From the "Metal Detector Trap" to the reality of sentimental attachment, this episode challenges the materialistic needs we use to protect ourselves from the pain of making a final decision.

Key Takeaways from the Episode:

• The Addiction to Uncertainty: Why hoarding isn't just about items, but about an inability to put a "period" on decisions, leading to a life lived in an anxious limbo.
• The Metal Detector Trap: How a single "good idea" attached to a physical object can lead to years of physical clutter.
• Trauma and Tangibility: A discussion on whether hoarding stems from loneliness or a primitive need to form relationships with "things" when people let us down.
• The Hoarder Spectrum: Are we all hoarders on some level? A look at how processing information vs. accumulating it defines our functional health.

Insightful Moment: "Hoarding all stems, I think, from not being sure what you want. Because when you're sure of what you want, you don't need to have everything." — Toliy 

Join the Conversation:

Do your possessions own you? Are you avoiding finality by surrounding yourself with "maybe one day" items? Click play to uncover the psychological roots of your clutter and learn why cleaning your room might actually be the ultimate act of personal growth.

CLIFFHANGER: Stay tuned for the live call from Joe, the "son of a hoarder," who puts Toliy on the hot seat. By the end of the episode, the group faces a brutal realization: is Toliy just a "creative minimalist," or is he a hoarder in total denial? 

Feel stuck and can't actualize? We'd love to hear your story - form  - https://forms.gle/joegCWQ7mHt7eN3K9

Transcript

[00:00:00] Dennis: On this week's episode, 

[00:00:01] Eldar: I think that hoarders, they're artists, right? Yeah. The solution is simple. The people around them have to help them clean everything up because they're not at the moment resisting. 

[00:00:13] Toliy: But it all stems, I think, from not being sure what you want. Because when you're sure of what you want, you don't need to have everything.

[00:00:20] Multiple options open is what brings, I think, the sense of peace. Wow. 

[00:00:25] Mike: If you have these chances and every time you get bad experiences, like people don't understand me, as you move away more from like the human, you now move into that world of hoarding. 

[00:00:34] Eldar: Oh, so you're saying that it's loneliness.

[00:00:43] Mike: Oh wow. We live, 

[00:00:44] Eldar: all right guys, we live, tonight's topic is gonna be hoarding topic. What? That's, that hits home though. Mental or physical, or both? Well, that's the good question. That's what we're gonna get into. Yeah. One question has, I think that the question has to be around. 

[00:01:00] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:01:01] Eldar: How does maybe, um, mental hoarding transfer over or spill over into physical hoarding, obviously, right?

[00:01:09] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:01:09] Eldar: So I'll begin, like I said, I'll begin by the definition so we can kind of get an idea of what the fuck we're talking about. Okay. Maybe some people that are listeners that are new to us or whatever, maybe they don't know. 

[00:01:20] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:01:21] Eldar: Okay. So the topic is work. Let me silence this and get this definition.

[00:01:27] Okay. Hoarding disorder is a mental health condition characterized by persistent difficulty, discarding possessions due to a perceived need to save them causing severe clutter that compromises living spaces. Fuck you. That's, that was very good. 

[00:01:47] Mike: Yeah, 

[00:01:47] Eldar: that was very good. Symptoms include extreme attachment to items, distrust over discarding and excessive acquisition.

[00:01:54] Okay. And the treatments typically involves cognitive behavioral therapy and medication. No, but I think it's an interesting topic. Like I said, I, I didn't make this up, I just said that, uh, somebody chimed in. Right. Um, and we had a little discussion or whatever, and then he told me that he actually talks about hoarding all the time.

[00:02:12] He has a huge topic on this. Mm-hmm. And I actually listened to one of the episodes, it was probably about 30 minutes. 

[00:02:16] Mike: Mm. 

[00:02:16] Eldar: Uh, and during that episode, at least they emphasize, uh, a big portion of it, of how we ought to be compassionate towards people who hoard, who have this mental disability or whatever.

[00:02:25] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:26] Eldar: Uh, because all the, all the sensitive things that are, that surround this particular mental disorder. Okay. So I thought we'd talk about how does, how does this come about? Right. And why does, um, it becomes an overwhelming thing where it just overwhelms our physical realm with all this stuff. Right.

[00:02:44] It has to begin its forms and how it forms probably first mentally, right. And I always, we always talk about some of the things that we talk about, right? Is that, uh, a lot of times we get, we clutter our own minds with some goals, some ambitions that we have, right? Uh, I actually spoke to Joe earlier today and he said, yeah, like a lot of times I was just trying to be everywhere, but I was nowhere at the same time because he was always kind of like keeping up, keeping up with what the world maybe told you to do.

[00:03:12] Mm-hmm. You know, how to, how to move, how to live, right? So he's constantly, he was constantly maybe hoarding mentally, um, you know, and check boxing, you know, ch checking everything to make sure that he's kind of keeping up with everything. And with that, I think we form a lot what I think is a lot of loose ends.

[00:03:31] Right. Same thing for me, when I got myself, um, a metal detector during COVID. 

[00:03:37] Joe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:37] Eldar: I was like, oh, I'm gonna, this is a cool activity. Let me get a metal detector. You know, obviously there's a reason why I got a metal detector. I had some kind of thought, some kind of idea. I saw myself doing it, you know, I thought, I was like, oh, this is great, you know, and now this metal detector's been in my garage for five years.

[00:03:53] I haven't sold it. I probably should, but I don't, because I still tell myself, right, that one day I'm gonna go a metal detect. It's still a good idea. So I personally think, I mean, I, I've never dove into hoarding a lot. I just saw maybe a show, one or two, one or two shows and spoke to Joe about his dad's issue.

[00:04:14] Um, that maybe, uh, that's how these things form. That you start kind of with an idea, then you come up with kind of a little bit of a plan, and that plan kind of maybe then slowly calcified into a material thing where maybe you made a move or bought something, you know, acquired something that you wanted to do.

[00:04:37] You wanted to take care, take care of, and you thought it was a good idea. And when that, that idea is attached to that material thing, now it's hard to get rid of. You can't just throw out the, throw out that metal detector. Right. It was a good idea. 

[00:04:49] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:51] Eldar: Uh, and obviously the attachment that we always talk about that we have to many different things, um, cause a suffering.

[00:04:58] So what do you guys think? Good topic of what? On hoarding? We never touched it. 

[00:05:02] Mike: Yeah, we never did. I mean, uh, it's interesting. I think I was trying to think about like, the root of it. What is, like, what does it mean to hoard? 

[00:05:10] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:10] Mike: Right? It's like, um, you form an attachment to things. 

[00:05:15] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:05:16] Mike: Or thoughts. Right.

[00:05:19] Or certain, like mm-hmm. Beliefs about yourself, I guess too, right? 

[00:05:22] Eldar: Probably. Yeah. 

[00:05:24] Mike: So that means what? That those, that, that kind of thing brings you comfort 

[00:05:30] Eldar: to some degree. 

[00:05:30] Mike: To some degree. Some. Some safety. Some safety. Yeah. 

[00:05:32] Eldar: Mental safety. Yeah. 

[00:05:34] Mike: So maybe it's like a part, part of it is like a control, you know, that those comforts like give you, feel like you are in control.

[00:05:44] Protect, you're protected. Protected, yeah. They give you peace, like a mental and a physical peace somehow. I don't know. It's definitely interesting. Um, 

[00:05:57] Eldar: phenomenon. 

[00:05:58] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:06:00] Eldar: Well, we don't have to go far. We actually have a subject, we have a guest, 

[00:06:05] Mike: I 

[00:06:05] Eldar: guess. Right. 

[00:06:05] I 

[00:06:05] Eldar: guess hoarder. You know what I mean? Yeah. Who can tell us a little bit more about it, give us some more insight, but as you tell us a little bit of your insight to, uh, I'm gonna continue to read a little bit just to kind of throw some stuff at you guys regarding hoarding.

[00:06:20] What do you think? 

[00:06:22] Toliy: I mean, first off, I don't think I'm a hoarder. I'm, I'm definitely, uh, like, like I, I, I feel like I have never, like I don't have any problem, like throwing things away or like mm-hmm. Doing that. Like, I have no attachment to, to that or not. I think that, um, I, I don't even think that that the hoarding is the, um, the, the root of it is an attachment to like these items.

[00:06:45] I think it's a, uh, it's, um, addiction to, uh, uncertainty. 

[00:06:50] Eldar: It's an addiction to uncertainty. 

[00:06:52] Toliy: Yeah. Because what happens, 

[00:06:54] Eldar: how can you be addicted to uncertainty? That sounds like cognitive dissonance. 

[00:06:57] Toliy: Yeah. I think that that's like the point of 

[00:06:59] Eldar: really? 

[00:07:00] Toliy: Yeah, because I feel like, um, the thing is that because these people are unsure of what they actually want, they.

[00:07:10] They constantly put themselves in a position where they have like, almost like all options open at all times no matter what. And, and putting like a closed like period on something. 

[00:07:20] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:21] Toliy: I think it brings them like a, uh, like an anxious like fe feeling. 

[00:07:25] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:25] Toliy: It's an immense 

[00:07:26] Eldar: amount 

[00:07:26] Toliy: of pain because, because they're uncertain.

[00:07:28] But if you were certain about what you want or you have some direction you would never hoard, but you hoard because you want this permanent uncertainty where like you're just not sure of everything. That's 

[00:07:40] Eldar: a crazy angle. 

[00:07:41] Toliy: Yeah. You're just not, not sure about it. Like, like anything. Mm-hmm. So you have to have all options open now.

[00:07:48] That, now, now, now having all options open, I think definitely brings you some kind of like peace. But it all stems I think from not being sure what you want. Because when you're sure of what you want, you like, you don't need to have everything. You just need to have some things. 

[00:08:03] Eldar: So how, but yeah. But how can you, how can you be 

[00:08:06] Mike: addicted to something that's actually like causing you pain?

[00:08:09] Toliy: Well, the thing, well, how, how is, how is it causing you pain? 

[00:08:12] Mike: Well, 

[00:08:12] Eldar: uncertainty. I would say 

[00:08:13] Mike: that it's unpleasant feeling, 

[00:08:15] Toliy: right? 

[00:08:15] Mike: I think the uncertainty. Then leads you to go find certainty. And in the hoarding you find the certainty in a way. 

[00:08:21] Toliy: Well, no, you never find anything. 'cause you never like 

[00:08:23] Mike: pull the trigger.

[00:08:24] So, well, you find it, but you never get to like a finish line where you found everything. Well, that's why you just keep on hoarding. 

[00:08:29] Toliy: Well, it, yeah, it's just an open-ended, it's not, not nothing is like, you don't find anything and you don't not find anything. You're, you're in just like a, uh, and it's limbo state, like an in-between land.

[00:08:38] Mike: Yeah, 

[00:08:38] Toliy: yeah. Where you have all options open. That, that all op, like multiple options open is what brings, I think the sense of peace. 

[00:08:45] Eldar: Wow. 

[00:08:46] Toliy: But, 

[00:08:47] Eldar: um, that's an interesting take. Um, 

[00:08:49] Toliy: yeah, like, uh, yeah. I don't see how it's like a real attachment to like the actual items. I feel like it's a, uh, it's more about you're just not sure about anything and you continue to live that way.

[00:09:01] Eldar: So why is it so hard for them to discard of these things? 

[00:09:04] Toliy: Because it creates period, like, it, it creates 

[00:09:06] Eldar: ities. Finalities. 

[00:09:07] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:09:08] Eldar: It's a period. Yeah. It's a period. This is, this is a very painful, 

[00:09:12] Toliy: well, I, I think naturally, like for example with, with like anxiety and stuff, like, you have different potential outcomes that can happen.

[00:09:22] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:22] Toliy: And, um, when you're in those states, I think that you thrive within those in between outcomes where there's uncertainty, you know, it's like, it's something to do. 

[00:09:34] Eldar: So you're almost saying that the person who's that anxious, it seeks out that, like, that uncertainty because they, it's now so natural to them.

[00:09:41] So they gravitate towards that because that's their piece. 

[00:09:46] Toliy: Um. Say that last part again. 

[00:09:49] Eldar: Well, you're saying that these people that have anxiety, they figured out somehow to maybe thrive, and then the uncertainty, so they don't have to make like a final decision, which brings them the most amount of pain.

[00:10:00] So if they never make a final decision, they almost like in this place of like peace, like maybe one day. Right. 

[00:10:07] Toliy: Well, I, I, I just feel like it's, it's more of a feeling of like, that you have multiple options and going, like they're, they're not accustomed to like, making like actual decisions for themselves.

[00:10:20] Like they, they don't live any kind of like life. Like they, they live like a, uh, a completely like meaningless life. 

[00:10:27] Eldar: Hmm. Okay. Mike, what do you think about that? That thought that the un uncertainty actually is what? Bringing in peace? 

[00:10:37] Mike: Well, I, it might be a paradox. 

[00:10:39] Eldar: Yeah. What it sounds like. Which, 

[00:10:40] Mike: which, which, 

[00:10:41] Eldar: or cognitive dissonance of 

[00:10:42] Mike: Yeah.

[00:10:43] Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's paradoxical I guess it seems like to be that, because that uncertainty is bringing them some kind of feeling that they, that they are addicted to or they like or brings them like the uncertainty brings them comfort. Yeah. Which doesn't match. 

[00:11:00] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:11:01] Mike: But in that like, messed up psychology 

[00:11:04] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:11:05] Mike: You know, of hoarding. I think that's how it works. Probably. 

[00:11:08] Eldar: Lemme see if I can try to replicate that in my head 

[00:11:11] Toliy: where it's like, yeah. For example, if someone's anxious about something, right? Why not go one way or the other and go check, right. Or like go find out. 

[00:11:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:11:21] Toliy: They don't do that. 

[00:11:21] Eldar: They don't do that.

[00:11:22] Toliy: No. They live in that anxious state until there's either some kind of force or maybe some kind of time or some kind of like sober realization that like, hey, it's, 

[00:11:30] Eldar: it's time to put this down. Yeah. 

[00:11:31] Toliy: Yeah. It's not what you're like making this out to be, you know, it's not like that. It's not like this, you know?

[00:11:37] But if you're anxious about something, well, why don't you put some finality to it, for example, go one way or the other. Or like, 

[00:11:42] Mike: yeah. 

[00:11:43] Toliy: Go act on it, for example. Yeah. But usually the anxious people are not gonna go act on it because either, like one thing might be like ridiculously stupid. 

[00:11:51] Mike: Mm-hmm. And 

[00:11:51] Toliy: they're not like at that point to go that way.

[00:11:55] And then the other way is also like, they're not gonna just put it down, for example. Mm-hmm. So they just wanna live in this in-between land. And to me, like this is the same thing. 

[00:12:05] Eldar: Yeah. Well, you know, I was trying to think about my metal detector. 

[00:12:08] Toliy: Mm-hmm. And 

[00:12:09] Eldar: my idea about it, like, I think it's a good idea.

[00:12:13] It's, you might 

[00:12:14] Mike: be developing hoarding, 

[00:12:15] Eldar: I'm not buying metal detectors, but like, 

[00:12:18] Toliy: no, but like, you are thing of like, I, I don't consider that. Like, like what, what are we 

[00:12:22] Eldar: considering? I'm not calling that hoarding. 

[00:12:23] Toliy: Hoarding. Yeah. 

[00:12:23] Eldar: I'm not, I'm just saying, I'm just trying to see if I can develop something within that where it's like I have unlimited amount of ideas.

[00:12:30] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:30] Eldar: And now there's a lot of these, quote unquote good ideas are attached to ve physical items. Mm-hmm. That I can't get rid of. And every time that I think of getting rid of them, it means to get rid of that idea. That it previously was so cool or so good that I don't wanna put down because I see myself fucking metal detecting one day.

[00:12:51] You know what I'm saying? 

[00:12:52] Toliy: Well, no, sure. But I like, I, I don't see how that like applies here because like you are not Oh, 

[00:12:57] Eldar: no, no, no, no, no. Thousand x that 

[00:12:59] Mike: now. 

[00:13:00] But 

[00:13:00] Mike: like yeah, you have that on one thing, but if you had that on many things, this is what I'm saying. Yeah, 

[00:13:04] Toliy: yeah. Like you, you would need it to me to be to, to me it would, it, it, it would be like there would be some kind of, there would need to be some kind of constant impact on your life, but I'm sure this thing is just slay somewhere.

[00:13:16] Eldar: Yeah. And I 

[00:13:16] Toliy: forgot about it does not bother anybody. 

[00:13:18] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:13:18] Toliy: Right. But like, 

[00:13:19] Eldar: but what? But, but probably the hoarders, right? That when their family members come in and try to like, Hey, let me help you clean this up. They're like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Everything's fine. It doesn't bother me. Right. A 

[00:13:28] Toliy: obviously say that's the 

[00:13:29] Eldar: argument.

[00:13:30] Toliy: Yeah. That's lot things. Yeah. That's a lot of things. No like that. Like it's hard to imagine that thing with one thing that you're bringing up, but ver versus someone that's like a real hoard hoarder in that kind of way. 

[00:13:40] Mike: But isn't it subjective? 

[00:13:42] Toliy: No. Come on. 

[00:13:43] Mike: Yeah. But it's also, how does it start? They don't just collect like a million things.

[00:13:46] Yeah. It goes one thing at a time. 

[00:13:48] Toliy: Yeah. But I don't think that you can solve a problem for one thing at a time. I think that, well, we're 

[00:13:51] Mike: definitely not saying that, 

[00:13:52] Toliy: that Yeah. It's not a problem. Solve problem. 

[00:13:54] Eldar: When does, when does, like, it's obvious and blatant that it's like, oh, that guy's a hoarder. Like after you collect 10 things, a hundred things, a thousand things that you can't throw out.

[00:14:03] Toliy: Yeah. I don't know if there's an exact number to it. I think it has to have some kind of, um. Some, some kind of impact on your life. 

[00:14:11] Eldar: Alright, so here are the symptoms as they define them. Persistent difficulty, discarding, inability to get rid of the items regardless of their actual value, distress, significant anxiety or emotional pain at the thought of discarding them.

[00:14:26] Toliy: You see the, the, the significant anxiety is what I'm talking about. 

[00:14:29] Eldar: Yeah. Excessive clutter, living areas, kitchen, bathroom, bedroom, become unusable for their intended purpose. Okay. So I guess the, the redefinition of living space, like your bathroom's no longer your bathroom, but it's storage. 

[00:14:41] Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:14:42] Eldar: For shit. Yeah. You know, acquiring tendencies where excessive collecting or buying of items or difficulty passing up free items, so you kind constantly like, yeah. Mm-hmm. Gimme everything, you know, gimme this, gimme that, you know, you're just constantly like filling your shit. 

[00:14:55] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:56] Eldar: But when you are acquiring those items, you have to be attaching quickly ideas of like, I'll use that later for this thing.

[00:15:03] No, you are, you're so good at like, like, oh, I can potentially do this with this, you know, versus like, no, I don't need that. Instead you kinda like, I'm this maybe in inventor. 

[00:15:17] Toliy: Well, no, or creative, you just don't know what you need. That, that to me is like the point. You, you don't know what you want. So you just, you, you, I, I don't even, oh, like, I don't even know if you go that far into picturing what you're gonna do with something.

[00:15:28] I think it's just like, you don't, you say it's like a nice to have, 

[00:15:30] Mike: I think 

[00:15:31] Toliy: like everything is just nice to have. 

[00:15:32] Mike: I think you graduate to like, uh, becoming a hoarder. You come from. Like, uh, there's something you have to go through in order to, to graduate to be a hoarder. 

[00:15:41] Eldar: Does a hoarder feel like they're the richest person ever?

[00:15:44] Mike: No, I don't think so. I think I actually feel like the, the loneliest person ever. 

[00:15:48] Eldar: No, no, no. I'm talking about like, I have a lot of things. 

[00:15:51] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:51] Eldar: That's the person, like you, I got everything. But that's how they feel. They might say 

[00:15:54] Mike: that, but that's not the truth, I think 

[00:15:56] Eldar: really. Alright. Decision making issues, problems with organization, categorization and memory.

[00:16:03] Mike: Hmm

[00:16:06] Eldar: hmm. These are some of the symptoms, guys. Emotional attachment. These are the risk factors. Hoarders often feel safer surrounded by their items or attach sentimental value to them. I think they, they're attached to sentimental value to them in order to protect them a little bit more. Well 

[00:16:24] Mike: that's where this, that's where I think you graduate when you like, you can't figure it out with like, people, 

[00:16:28] Eldar: uhhuh, 

[00:16:28] Mike: you start forming like these relationships with, with things.

[00:16:31] Yeah. 'cause you give up on people maybe, I don't know. And then it's becomes, you graduated from like, oh, you have like a, you just have some stuff. Problems. But now I think this sounds like a much more of a mental health, like a crisis versus like, oh, you're just like a, I don't know, a liar. Or a bad person.

[00:16:50] This is more like now it's clinical. 

[00:16:52] Eldar: This is what they talk about. They talk about stages of development here. Right. While not strictly stage hoarding often begins in the early life teens, and it progresses becoming more severe with age. It often starts with minor manageable clutter, Mike. 

[00:17:05] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:05] Eldar: And escalates as the ability to make decisions about items declines.

[00:17:12] Mike: Mm. What does that mean? 

[00:17:13] Eldar: That means there's more and more shit you acquire, you have, you don't have the ability anymore to discern like, what do I do with the shit? Like, I can't make a decision one way or the other. 

[00:17:22] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:23] Eldar: So you kind of just like keep it. 

[00:17:25] Toliy: Yeah. And I think there, there's probably like a, um, some kind of like, um, o over time.

[00:17:31] Um, I think real ho hoarders are probably ones that, um, are by themselves. 

[00:17:39] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:39] Toliy: So I think that they stop developing relationships with people and they just develop relationships with these items in like a way, like they're, like, they're probably, they probably talk to themselves, for example, 

[00:17:50] Eldar: with the items.

[00:17:52] Toliy: I dunno if they talk to the items, but I'm saying they probably like talk to themselves, uhhuh, and they almost feel like they have some kind of like Yeah. Like the, uh, the attachment is the relationship with the, uh, with the items. 

[00:18:03] Eldar: Hmm. 

[00:18:03] Toliy: You know? 

[00:18:04] Eldar: Okay. Um. Do you think that we, uh, people that are kind of maybe disorganized in their thinking, uh, can't start stuff, can't finish stuff.

[00:18:14] Also, is it kind of a form of a maybe ho hoarding thoughts, hoarding, attachments, ideas, goals? I think that's maybe how it all starts. Like if you, like, 

[00:18:25] Mike: um, if you have, I, I'm not sure how to like prop prop the proper wor words to use to explain it, but if you have like a, a lot of things that Aren unchecked.

[00:18:34] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:35] Mike: Like, uh, I don't, it's not like maybe mental kind of conditions, right? Like, I don't know, like you're bad to yourself. Low self-esteem, right? Yeah. Low confidence and you kind of just go and check. Then you never like really speak about it. You never have a chance to relate to somebody or connect to like, kind of help rule like, you know, navigate it.

[00:18:57] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:57] Mike: And then, or if you have these chances and every time you get, you get bad experiences, like, people don't understand me, you know? 

[00:19:04] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:05] Mike: Uh, they dunno what I'm going through. I think as you move away more from like the human Okay, you now move into that world of hoarding. 

[00:19:13] Eldar: Oh, so you're saying that it's loneliness.

[00:19:16] Mike: I think it's, part of it is loneliness, but it's like, um, 

[00:19:21] Eldar: you, you go into world of ideas of these un of this unfinished business. That you have. 

[00:19:26] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:27] Eldar: And now that you no longer can relate maybe to people 

[00:19:30] Mike: Yeah. Or 

[00:19:31] Eldar: can properly communicate yourself and express yourself. 

[00:19:33] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:33] Eldar: You in the, in the, this alone world with the things like totally says you kind of having this conversation mm-hmm.

[00:19:38] Just ongoing conversation maybe in the background. That's kinda like, that's your life. 

[00:19:43] Mike: Yeah. You graduate, like, not up but down for 

[00:19:47] Eldar: like, why do you got a label like that? 

[00:19:49] Mike: No, I don't know. I just wanted to be mean for a second. 

[00:19:51] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:19:52] Mike: Like, yeah. That's how I see it is like, you graduated down Uhhuh or you got, like, you got sent back, you 

[00:19:56] Eldar: got deeper, you 

[00:19:57] Mike: deeper, you got deeper into this thing uhhuh from, like, you can't, you can't function with you with people.

[00:20:04] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:04] Mike: Like, you can't like be involved in normal relationships. Mm-hmm. Right. You can't maybe, uh, probably take criticism or be open to like, you know, people asking you certain questions or judging you or making you think or calling you out and bullshit. 

[00:20:17] Eldar: Change. Change. 

[00:20:18] Mike: Yeah. But we talked about last episode.

[00:20:19] Yeah. So I think then you graduate to like, I guess there's levels to it. There's like, you have some mental issues like Yeah, you gotta work on myself. Right. Things like that. 

[00:20:28] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:20:29] Mike: You know, I got to, I don't know, I can give examples, but like, you gotta work on things, but if you never work on them and you're like, yo, it's, or if you think you worked on them, but you never resolved them, you kind of just like give up and you, now you have to move into this realm of things.

[00:20:44] That's, that's kind of how I see it. But it's like you've graduated from like in like you're being a part of society and now you're kind of have your own little bubble. 

[00:20:54] Eldar: And 

[00:20:55] Mike: that brings you comfort because that was bringing you pain. 

[00:20:57] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:20:58] Mike: But you like escape reality with these things and things, but now you, like, you escaped it, but now you're like, you know, I, I think it's a worse position now.

[00:21:07] You're in like a 

[00:21:07] Eldar: by 

[00:21:08] Mike: yourself sounds like a psychological, like a much, much deeper, worse psychological problem than 

[00:21:12] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:21:13] Mike: Just like, oh, I don't know how to like, talk to people. I dunno how to, you know, I'm a bad communicator. I can't relate. I'm have a low self-esteem. People don't understand me. Right.

[00:21:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:21:21] Mike: And then you just feel like, I guess everybody's against you. 

[00:21:24] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:24] Mike: But I think we naturally have a thing where we want attach. 

[00:21:27] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:21:27] Mike: Like Right. We want to connect. Yeah. It's a normal thing, but if we constantly have an experience of we can't connect. 

[00:21:33] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:33] Mike: And, and if the experiences are always bad 

[00:21:35] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:21:36] Mike: You still want to connect. So you have to find something to connect with, which is these things. And they, like, you're a little, so, 

[00:21:42] Eldar: so then would you say that there was a value proposition where this one, this person specifically, let's just say traded right? Their relationships, let's just say for, uh, the human relationships for things.

[00:21:56] Yeah. That it was more of like, 

[00:21:59] Mike: yeah, I think so. 

[00:22:00] Eldar: Like they had the choice and then they're like, okay, then it is what it is. 

[00:22:02] Mike: It's, uh, for a long time going on track, like I would just get thinking of like materialistic, materialistic people, right? 

[00:22:10] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:11] Mike: They have an attachment to things, right? 

[00:22:13] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:14] Mike: Like they value, they they value that very highly.

[00:22:17] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:22:18] Mike: But if they don't learn about other things to kind of like form connections with. They're just stuck on the material stuff. Like if it keeps going like that. Plus having bad relationships with people mm-hmm. And being materialistic. Right. It's like a, that's like a combination to be a hoarder. Sounds like materialistic things.

[00:22:35] Physical items. 

[00:22:36] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:22:37] Mike: Then the inability to be part of a society, you know? Yeah. And then now you just develop this thing where like, these material things are your identity. Yeah. That's your prison. Yeah. 

[00:22:46] Toliy: See, but I, I, I don't think that materialism though, like, like people who are materialistic, I don't think it has to like, do anything with horror.

[00:22:55] Eldar: Uh, no, I'm not saying that. No. I think there's some kind of 

[00:22:56] Toliy: correlation from materialism to exist. There needs to be people not including yourself. 

[00:23:03] Eldar: That's true too. 

[00:23:04] Toliy: You cannot be materialistic on an island by yourself. Correct. 

[00:23:06] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:23:07] Toliy: You can't be 

[00:23:08] Eldar: unless for Yeah. Yeah. Correct. 

[00:23:09] Toliy: Yeah. You know, so materialism exists because you have someone else to show to, to show off to.

[00:23:14] Yeah. To show off to, yeah. For other people to think of like that. Yeah. So I don't think that, that like, 

[00:23:19] Eldar: no, you're right, because materialism is also where it's a status thing. 

[00:23:22] Toliy: Yes. 

[00:23:22] Eldar: You have to get rid of the old stuff. 

[00:23:24] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:24] Eldar: Right. Because they're gonna judge you for that, that sweater that you wearing. I saw you wearing that last year.

[00:23:28] Toliy: Mm-hmm. Well, 

[00:23:29] Eldar: you better get a new one. I'm not sure if that's like always the case. Like you, you know, I wonder if there's materialistic hoarders out there. 

[00:23:36] Toliy: Impossible. 

[00:23:37] Eldar: Impossible. 

[00:23:38] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:23:38] Eldar: Really? Explain why. 

[00:23:40] Toliy: Well, 'cause I think for someone to be materialistic, it means that like they're, they're valuing things because these things do something for them, but that only exists if there's other people involved.

[00:23:52] Well, but I do agree that, 

[00:23:54] Eldar: yeah, but, and the hoarders don't need that. They 

[00:23:56] Toliy: just do it on their own. Think, I think that are, are more solo in like the way that they go about things. Mm-hmm. They have the opposite. They, they're like, uh, no, 

[00:24:04] Mike: but they graduated from that, what you just explained. So first you're materialistic and you have, you have like, you looking for something from other people to give you.

[00:24:12] Right. You said that, right? Like, you want people to acknowledge you to kind of, like you say, you can be. 

[00:24:19] Toliy: Yeah. But I don't see how that translates into hurt. 

[00:24:21] Mike: Well, if you're constantly not getting that from people, 

[00:24:23] Toliy: right. 

[00:24:24] Mike: No, I think it might, if you're not getting that, which like the thing of you seeking validation from other people because of the things that you have, when you don't get that validation, you keep getting more shit.

[00:24:35] Eventually you could run into a thing of like, you're not getting that, but this, these things bring you peace. It's like, 

[00:24:40] Toliy: no, but they can't, 

[00:24:42] Mike: well, they obviously can't in a real thing. But I'm 

[00:24:44] Toliy: what 

[00:24:44] Mike: I'm saying, this is not 

[00:24:45] Toliy: like a, I'm saying if if you're not getting that feeling from it, then you're not, like, you're not fulfilling the materialism that, that you're talking about.

[00:24:53] So like, you cannot get fulfillment from these things without getting that from the other people. 

[00:25:01] Mike: In a logical sense. Yes, you're right. But this is not a logical thing that we're talking about, 

[00:25:05] Toliy: right? No, but the mat in, in mat, like materialistic people, like, they actually get, they actually have feelings that are happening from these I items and these things.

[00:25:15] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:16] Toliy: So he's saying 

[00:25:17] Eldar: there's 

[00:25:18] Toliy: social 

[00:25:18] Eldar: can't exist. There's a social dynamic. Yes. Mike is saying that if the social dynamic. It's not, has you, you didn't receive the social dynamic part of materialism. 

[00:25:26] Toliy: Yeah. I don't say you can keep going with material with, with, with those items. Like your 

[00:25:30] Eldar: materialism, 

[00:25:31] Mike: uh, transforms to hoarding shit.

[00:25:34] Toliy: Yeah. I, I, I don't see possible. 

[00:25:35] Eldar: Yeah, I don't think 

[00:25:36] Mike: materialism is like, I'm not sure if materialism is defined as that. You own like the, the part of it is that you have to receive some kind of validation from others. Like you 

[00:25:44] Toliy: have to 

[00:25:45] Mike: That's it has to be 

[00:25:46] Eldar: to 

[00:25:46] Mike: me, yes. I think 

[00:25:46] Eldar: there's a, that's a 

[00:25:47] Mike: big variable 

[00:25:48] Eldar: there.

[00:25:48] Toliy: There. 

[00:25:49] Mike: You're not gonna, you're not gonna be, 

[00:25:50] Eldar: yeah. You're not gonna be wearing, uh, Rolex and chains on the island when nobody's there. You know what I'm saying? 

[00:25:55] Toliy: Like that kind of thing would not have ever been created without social chain 

[00:25:58] Eldar: structure. But you don't think hoards are part of their hoard? That, that's my question.

[00:26:04] All right. You know what, we don't have any hoarders here, let's just say in the room, but we do know of a hoarder. So this will be a live call. Yes. Not to the hoarder, but the son of a hoarder. Yes. Who almost got infected by the hoarding. 

[00:26:15] Mike: Yeah. And I think he will say that they do take great pride in there.

[00:26:19] Eldar: The hoard. 

[00:26:19] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:26:20] Eldar: Alright. Let's 

[00:26:21] Mike: see. Like if you call, 

[00:26:22] Eldar: well, no, 

[00:26:22] Mike: they, he'd like, yo, where's that paper from 1989? Where'd you place it? It was like, oh, it's right here. Under this 800,000 pages. 

[00:26:28] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:26:28] Mike: On the right side underneath upside down. Like they know exactly where it is. 

[00:26:32] Eldar: Holy shit. And then when they serve the purpose of like, giving it to you, 

[00:26:36] Mike: they feel like a thing of like proud.

[00:26:37] They 

[00:26:37] Eldar: feel like accomplishment. They feel proud that they did something and they, they were off service. 

[00:26:41] Mike: It was useful to them even though like thousands a year passed. 

[00:26:45] Eldar: Wow. If that's true. All right. 

[00:26:48] Mike: Yeah. Like, I don't know, the hoard, the hoarders, they get something from 

[00:26:51] Eldar: the hoarding. They feel proud of it.

[00:26:53] I've never see, so you almost say thing, it's like a utility bro. Like they become a utility and they become, they feel useful 

[00:26:59] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:26:59] Eldar: To whoever needs help because they have that little item stuck somewhere. 

[00:27:03] Toliy: No, they, 

[00:27:03] Eldar: they for this rainy day. 

[00:27:05] Toliy: Well, yes, but they, but they like, well, yeah, but like they have that, but they don't.

[00:27:10] But most of the time, none of these things are like used. 

[00:27:14] Eldar: Yeah. But it doesn't, 

[00:27:15] Toliy: but just the opportunity for it to be 

[00:27:16] Eldar: possible, but potential, that's what it is. It's huge. Yes. 

[00:27:19] Mike: And 

[00:27:19] Eldar: again, that's a human 

[00:27:20] Mike: connection. 

[00:27:20] Eldar: That's the human connection. 

[00:27:22] Mike: People want 

[00:27:23] Toliy: get some doesn't do with materialism. 

[00:27:25] Eldar: Uh, sure. But it, but it, to some degree, it's like a, it's like a thing.

[00:27:29] It's like it's material things, you know what I mean? And the more you have the connection of a status you 

[00:27:34] Toliy: have to utility not to the things. 

[00:27:37] Eldar: Oh, so then hoarders are better, better than, better people than materialistic people? 

[00:27:42] Toliy: I'd probably say so. Yeah. 

[00:27:44] Eldar: Alright. Yeah. Alright. Let's see it from a, a live Kohler, 

[00:27:50] Toliy: because like, real materialistic people are like dirty fuckers, you know, like, they're like, 

[00:27:54] Eldar: they're 

[00:27:54] Toliy: dirty fuckers.

[00:27:55] They're nasty people. 

[00:27:56] Eldar: Importers are not 

[00:27:57] Toliy: like, they might be physically nasty. Yeah. You know, but not like, uh, the, they're not as disgusting, I feel like. 

[00:28:03] Eldar: Alright. Hello? Hello. Yeah. We're looking for the sun of a hoarder. 

[00:28:11] Joe: That's me. 

[00:28:13] Eldar: All right. Let means we're call on the right number. You hear 

[00:28:15] Joe: me? 

[00:28:16] Eldar: Yes. Were you following our conversation?

[00:28:24] Hello? 

[00:28:26] Joe: Hey. Yeah, I'm sorry I'm walking right now to the, my, uh, service is a little spotty. I'm in the city, but, 

[00:28:32] Eldar: okay. Should we call you, should we call you a little later? 

[00:28:35] Joe: No, I'm gonna try to sit down so it stops, uh, it stops jumping around. 

[00:28:39] Eldar: Okay. It, did you hear our conversation? 

[00:28:43] Joe: Uh, it was in and out. I was trying to listen live, but it was coming in and out.

[00:28:46] Eldar: Okay. So we, we came to a conclusion, or No, we came to a question first. It's an interesting question. You might be able to answer it because your dad is a hoarder. Can hoarders be materialistic in their nature? 

[00:29:01] Joe: They be materialistic. 

[00:29:03] Eldar: Can your dad be a hoarder and also be materialistic about his hoard? 

[00:29:11] Joe: Like, um, he, uh, not my dad, but hoarders, they, they can be materialistic hoarders.

[00:29:17] If that's, if that's what you're looking to, if that's what you're looking to find out. 

[00:29:22] Eldar: Yeah. Totally said This is impossible. 

[00:29:23] Toliy: No, no. I'm saying it's impossible. Like I don't see the correlation between being materialistic and becoming a hoarder. Those to me are not that, that, that sequence. I don't see 

[00:29:32] Eldar: the transition 

[00:29:33] Toliy: because materialism requires status approval of others, different things.

[00:29:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:29:38] Toliy: But. Yeah. Could you be attached to keeping things? Yeah. But that's different from being materialistic, obviously. 

[00:29:43] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:29:44] Joe: Yeah. But you don't have to be, um, you don't have to fit the look or description of like a dirty, a dirty bum that hoards like that, like lives in shit. Like you could be a hoarder that, that hoards other things rather than like just having a mess.

[00:30:02] You know what I mean? 

[00:30:03] Toliy: Well, no, sure. But I'm saying that the link between Mike, Mike was saying that, um, being a materialistic person can lead to then becoming a hoarder. Where I'm saying that I don't see how that pattern, like, like I, I don't see that that pattern ha happening from that can, like, can, can you just hoard more nicer shit?

[00:30:21] Yes. But I don't think that there's a connection between being materialistic and then becoming a hoarder. 

[00:30:27] Joe: Right. But, you know, you could be in ho you could be a hoarder and there's all different levels of hoarding, whether it's, it takes over, you have, whether it takes over one room, whether it's 

[00:30:38] Toliy: Sure 

[00:30:38] Joe: you're obsessed with one specific thing and you, you, you just, you know, um, it doesn't really necessarily impact the functionality of your home or your life.

[00:30:47] Toliy: Sure. No. That I agree with. 

[00:30:49] Joe: But you're obsessed with hoarding. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:30:51] Toliy: I agree with that, but I'm saying that, yeah, I, that 

[00:30:55] Joe: the 

[00:30:55] connection 

[00:30:55] Joe: is not, you could be materialistic with that. 

[00:30:58] Toliy: Yeah, but I don't. 

[00:30:58] Joe: Alright, well, whatcha hung up on because whether or not you, whether or not you're a hoarder or not 

[00:31:03] Toliy: me, I'm 

[00:31:04] Eldar: not a hoarder, so I 

[00:31:07] Toliy: throw everything away.

[00:31:08] Eldar: So Joe, uh, the progression of hoarding, 

[00:31:10] well 

[00:31:10] Joe: see that that's the hoarder is like, 

[00:31:13] Eldar: yeah, go ahead. 

[00:31:14] Joe: Go ahead. So that's a, that's what a hoarder says to anyone who, who, who, who, like, who basically puts a claim on someone that they hoard. Like every hoarder. 

[00:31:25] Toliy: Yeah. But I'm not, I'm not, not willing to throw something away.

[00:31:30] Joe: Yeah. But it's also, it's the habits, it's the lifestyle, it's the accumulation, it's the inability to, it's also kind of like 

[00:31:39] Eldar: decision 

[00:31:40] Joe: making, whether or not you're able, yeah. Whether or not you're able to like, have functional function, functional space in your life. Like where things, whether or not things get in your way or not.

[00:31:51] Like you may not be doing things intentionally or, um, or want to, but there could be, uh, hoarder, hoarder tendencies that you're not even aware of that can take over or restrict certain, uh, aspects of your lifestyle. 

[00:32:09] Eldar: What are some early signs of something like this? 

[00:32:14] Joe: A hoarding. Um, if you're on, if you're unable to get rid of basic trash, like trash and things and cardboard papers.

[00:32:25] They don't 

[00:32:26] Mike: male, 

[00:32:27] Joe: they don't have any reason to still be male. Um, empty boxes, uh, old things that like are just accumulating and taking up space and making a mess. Like that's a, that's a telltale sign. Um, not being able to walk into or use a space like that's obvious. 

[00:32:48] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:50] Joe: Um, 

[00:32:50] Eldar: yeah, like your, your living spaces start becoming starters, becoming storage for, for garbage mostly.

[00:32:57] Right. Uh, you can't use those that same Yes. That same space that you, you, you were able to use for something else. You can't use it anymore because the items are now just taking over that space.

[00:33:12] Joe: Hello? 

[00:33:12] Eldar: Yes. Can you hear me? Joe? 

[00:33:14] Joe: Can you hear me? 

[00:33:15] Eldar: Yes,

[00:33:19] we can hear you,

[00:33:24] Joe. All right. Well we are having trouble hearing Joe, so we're gonna hang up here. He's having 

[00:33:31] Mike: service.

[00:33:36] He's gotta call on the regular stuff, not the FBI line. 

[00:33:40] Eldar: Alright. Yeah. So, um, so yeah, those are some early signs. 

[00:33:44] Mike: Yeah. But I think again, it's like a, it's a progression, right? Yeah. It's a progression. There's certain like, uh, traits, I guess. 

[00:33:52] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:53] Mike: That's why I thought maybe the materialism could be a trait of a person, you know, like he said, being messy, being unorganized, like holding onto stuff, keeping garbage, not letting go.

[00:34:03] Then you graduate to like, uh, the hoarding. Yeah. Joe. 

[00:34:08] Joe: Hello. 

[00:34:08] Mike: Yes. 

[00:34:08] Joe: Hey, 

[00:34:09] Mike: can you hear us now? 

[00:34:11] Joe: Yeah. I'm calling you directly from my phone. Maybe it's, maybe this'll be better. 

[00:34:14] Eldar: Okay. Yeah. So you told, you told us about the early signs of it. 

[00:34:20] Joe: Yep. 

[00:34:20] Eldar: Okay. So when do you actually transition or how do you actually know, like, okay, this is an actual problem for yourself where you can't actually make this, these decisions in order to finally unclutter yourself.

[00:34:31] Like, do you ever identify that or is it just a progressional thing where it's like it just keeps going and going and going and you never recognize that about yourself? Are you al like, are hoarders always in denial that they're hoarders like any other mental, um, mental health problem? 

[00:34:48] Joe: I say the majority, the majority of them are in denial and they then, they're, you're all always faced with resistance.

[00:34:56] When someone else, another outside factor tries to make it apparent or tries to intervene, is always resistance. In between that and resistance. There's never someone who you kind of point something out and they're willing to like, comprehend. Admit, and like immediately just go like, Hey, can you help me out with this because I'm having an issue.

[00:35:19] It's like, um, it kind of, it gets left un untreated or undiagnosed and you live with it or someone, which is like, you know, like someone who's not a hoer can point out and then possibly assist or help someone through that process. Like I've been, I've been trying to do that with my father since I was a kid.

[00:35:42] Mm-hmm. Um, and like I've had, I've made progress and it's like trying to cure someone of a sickness that, like, you can't change for them, but you can only try to assist them in understanding how to, like, how to stop doing what they're doing. 

[00:36:03] Eldar: Okay. And then, um, have you, I know you've, you've watched a lot of these shows because of your dad.

[00:36:08] Um, have you ever, mm-hmm. Did you ever come across a case where, uh, you see a hoarder who's clearly a bad case, is a hoarder, then changes their ways and then doesn't be like, no longer is a hoarder, like completely cured? Is are there cases like that. 

[00:36:23] Joe: I say slim to none. It's almost like a drug addict trying to recover.

[00:36:27] Like you put them through rehab, they come out and then they're left their vice and they go back to it. And every case of every order that, um, professionals came in, psych came in, therapist came in, and then cleaning crews came in, they take care of the problem, and then like a year later, everything's back the way it was.

[00:36:48] Eldar: Wow. 

[00:36:49] Joe: Um, and I noticed last week when I was at Toll's house, um, I noticed that, uh, a thing between you and him with the, with just a placement of where the barbecue wanted to go. 

[00:37:01] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:02] Joe: Um, you saw, you saw, so a, like a certain functionality, uh, moving something where it make more sense. Um, and totally had, uh, the attachment of leaving it where it was for whatever reason he had.

[00:37:15] I don't know why, but when you guys started to, uh, start to feel that rift between you two, I picked on it, picked up on it right away because that's what me and my father go through all the time. And it's like, it's almost not understanding how to do things like the right way and how to, and basically trying to correct things that are like backwards, but the people don't see it and also don't.

[00:37:48] Or they're unable to see like what the, what the, what the average person sees. Because for whatever reason they're fixated on keeping it that way and that's the way they want it. And if you come into try to change that, they're gonna come at you with like some type of friction venom. So when I, yeah, when I saw that, I was like, oh man, you know, it sucks because I, I know what you were trying to do and I know what to, I know totally his reaction and I knew how it frustrated you because I've been there my whole life.

[00:38:21] Mm, 

[00:38:24] Eldar: okay. So we both handled it in the wrong way, you're saying? 

[00:38:28] Joe: Yes. Both of you did. 

[00:38:30] Eldar: Okay. Can you ask him about the pride question? Yeah, the pride. Yeah, the pride question. Like when somebody is like, yo, they have a hor uh, a ho of a million things. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. So, so one thing that we, we thought about is also like, the reason why hoarders hoard is because one day some of their shit will be useful to, to them, to them or to others.

[00:38:51] So for example, if you came in and said, Hey, hey dad, like, I remember there was a story you told me back then in 1985, you know, like about this guy. And he goes, oh, actually I know exactly where that newspaper is. Let me go dig that up. He digs it up, he satisfies you because you, you are happy now that he found the story that you forgot and now you guys have this little bond with this little connection.

[00:39:12] So, uh, is that a thing as well where like they constantly maybe want to save shit in order to them maybe be useful to others with their shit or themselves? Is that a thing 

[00:39:23] Joe: that's part that that's part of it? Yes. I think from, from what I recollec what, what I collected from hoarders, there's always some type of trauma related situation that the person gone through in their life that creates the hoarding.

[00:39:41] Uh, whether it's like, uh, a death in the family where people are trying to hold onto memories and tangible physical objects, whether it's like a, um, um, a psychological, uh, trauma. Um, but there's always some type of, there's some type of underlining issue. Um, with that person that created, created the hoard.

[00:40:04] And what type of hoard? Some people are like filthy, disgusting hoarders. Some people are very clean, organized hoarders. Some people are just like very unorganized. Um, makes no sense. Everything is kind of like outta whack. Um, there's all like, there's all different types of levels and scenarios of, of hoarding by alley.

[00:40:24] So 

[00:40:24] Eldar: there's clean hoarders. 

[00:40:26] Joe: There's clean hoarders too. It's organized hoarders. 

[00:40:28] Eldar: Oh shit, 

[00:40:29] Joe: I didn't know this. Um, and there's, and then there's filthy fucking living in your own shit type hoarders. 

[00:40:33] Eldar: Yeah, 

[00:40:34] Joe: like, like shit's all over the place. Dead animals in the house. Like 

[00:40:38] Mike: what the fuck 

[00:40:38] Joe: it goes from? It goes, it goes, it goes from one extreme to the, to the other and everything in between.

[00:40:45] Um, and uh, like Alana's mom's a hoarder and the two of them, my father and her and her mother are like very similar and personalities. They both had traumas and they both cannot get rid of things. And also think that like giving us things, like her mother constantly brings things from when Alana was a kid, whenever she comes to visit, she comes with 1,000,001 things that she held onto for like 30 years.

[00:41:14] Eldar: Oh shit. 

[00:41:15] Joe: She wants to give them to my son. So 

[00:41:16] Eldar: there you go. The service 

[00:41:17] Joe: and, 

[00:41:17] Eldar: mm-hmm. 

[00:41:18] Joe: Yeah. It's just like, oh, you know, like everything is nasty, all disgusting. 

[00:41:24] Eldar: Oh God. 

[00:41:24] Joe: We don't want it. And it's like she does it without asking and she just like dumps it on like. You know, like when an animal brings you like a dead bird and like you go, you're not gonna eat that bird.

[00:41:36] But like, you know, it's like they're, they're trying, they think they're doing something, or if you wanna get rid of something, they're like, well, just throw it out. No, we could donate it. Or someone, someone else would, would find good use. Can 

[00:41:48] Eldar: I give you my example and tell me if this is also along the same lines?

[00:41:53] Joe: Sure. 

[00:41:53] Eldar: So I was at Toy's House and we were watching UFC. We're just hanging out and then outta nowhere he brings this wrinkled shirt and he is like, Hey, try this out. It doesn't fit me anymore. You know, I was like, I'm like, okay, I guess. So I guess I'll try it out. Like it's, you know, he is like, oh, it's a good brand or whatever.

[00:42:10] Like, I don't want to throw it out. And I like, I took it. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then when I brought it home and Kevin's like, what the fuck are you wearing? You know what I mean? Throws in the garbage. I'm like, I can't, you know what I mean? Like, it's like a price position of Tolles, you know what I mean?

[00:42:23] It's just like a small example. 

[00:42:24] Joe: Bad, bad. 

[00:42:25] Toliy: Yeah. But you're bringing all like the wrong information. Like what if you're just like, I mean, you just, you don't see it. 

[00:42:33] Eldar: What? You gave me the shirt. 

[00:42:35] Toliy: Yeah, but you're saying that that it's surprise possession of mine. First off, that shirt was washed and it's brand new.

[00:42:40] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:42:41] Toliy: Okay. 

[00:42:41] Eldar: It did smell a little bit. Katherine said. Okay. All right. Yeah. Pinch 

[00:42:47] nerve. 

[00:42:49] Toliy: It's brand new. Yeah, it's brand new. If you throw it out. I have, I don't, I don't care. Okay. And for the record, Joe, if you guys throw out that smoker, I also will not care. So to me that smoker's a 

[00:42:57] Joe: what? 

[00:42:57] Toliy: Smoke. Well, the thing that Eldor was telling me to move like that, like the examples you guys are bringing, like they don't make any sense.

[00:43:03] Alright, so 

[00:43:04] Joe: let ask you, lemme ask you a question. 

[00:43:05] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:43:06] Joe: The smoker, when El goes, I knew what he was implying right away. He saw the better functionality of it being closer to the other grill. 

[00:43:16] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:43:16] Joe: I dunno for what reason you didn't, you don't have it there in the first place, but when he, when he suggested you move it, you said why?

[00:43:25] As if like that was a No, 

[00:43:26] Toliy: I didn't say why. 

[00:43:27] Joe: No, 

[00:43:28] Toliy: I didn't say why. No, you said you didn't want it there. No, I said I didn't want it there. 

[00:43:31] Joe: Yeah. So why didn't you want it there? 

[00:43:33] Toliy: Well, I can explain to you 

[00:43:34] Joe: outta curiosity. 

[00:43:35] Toliy: Yeah, 

[00:43:35] Joe: go 

[00:43:35] Toliy: ahead. Yeah. So one, one thing when it comes to smoker at least, uh, currently, one, I don't use it very frequently.

[00:43:42] Two, when I do use it, it's not something that needs to be in like a prime real estate type type of location because it's something that, like you go to, you put something in, it's not like a grill where you're active and you have to be there. Um, the, that space where he wanted to put it next to the grill, like there's, um, to, to me mu much, like more, more, uh, like one, one thing is I would value more space there and I would wanna put like potentially the things there, like a card or like a table to like put put stuff.

[00:44:12] We also discussed, um, a while back of u using like extra cement that we have. That would be like on the side of the deck where we would potentially put like the, uh, this like, uh, like, um, shush kebab thing we have to do there and put the smoker there as well. Um, 

[00:44:30] Joe: okay, 

[00:44:30] Toliy: so 

[00:44:30] Joe: lemme stop you 

[00:44:31] Toliy: to me. Yeah. 

[00:44:32] Joe: Lemme, lemme stop you.

[00:44:34] What if all these like future projects or plans or ideas that that actually do sound valid? 

[00:44:41] Eldar: Joel's 

[00:44:41] Joe: an expert at this. I agree with expert. Yes, I agree with you on that. But what if you just move the smoker for now 

[00:44:48] Eldar: to the middle of the yard, 

[00:44:49] Joe: bro, where Elda says, and then when it time comes, when you do do that slab and you have that situation ready, you move it.

[00:44:57] Because as of now, when I look out into off your deck, I see like a little shit hole, like, um, kind of like unfinished area and it, and an awkwardly placed drill that has to move anyway once you start doing that work. Hundred 

[00:45:11] Toliy: percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. I have no problem. I I have no attachment or no problem mo moving it anywhere even to that spot.

[00:45:18] But that like when you asked the 

[00:45:20] Joe: to, 

[00:45:20] Toliy: to, 

[00:45:21] Joe: so then why so, so if you understand where I'm coming from, do it because what, you know, what makes most sense now is move it to an, to the area where you have a little shelter, you have a little more, more space where the cooking area is gonna be. And when you're ready, you move it.

[00:45:43] On a pile of garbage, like out of place that kind 

[00:45:46] Eldar: of like, that's a nice smoker. 

[00:45:48] Joe: It's a eyeo. 

[00:45:49] Eldar: It's a nice smoker. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's a thousand dollars smoker, which should be under a little, you know, what is it, gazebo, what do you call it? Yeah, overhang. Overhang. Where it's protected. 

[00:45:59] Joe: I, 

[00:46:00] Eldar: you know, 

[00:46:01] Joe: so, no.

[00:46:01] So how do you feel about that idea? Totally. 

[00:46:04] Toliy: Yeah. I have no problem. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, like, I have no attachment to like, just the, the way that it was presented was like, Hey, it's a good idea to put it there. And to me, in that moment I felt like, no, I don't want it there. And like, I could put it in like any corner, like any, anywhere.

[00:46:19] 'cause all I needed is an, is an extender to be able to reach it. And to me, like I wouldn't want to take like a prime real estate position and put it there, you know, that, that, that was my like, thinking through there. But also like if you told me like, Hey, you need to wield this smoker and take and take it away from me.

[00:46:37] I will not lose any sleep over that. Wow. So, so that, that, that's what I'm saying is that like, I, I don't feel how like, yeah, yeah. It had any, anything to do with like ho like, like this topic at what if you do a hoarding hoarding of, of uh, placement of things. Well, I mean, if, if, yeah, if my grandma had ball, she'd be my control grandpa, you know?

[00:46:57] Joe: Well, it's, it's, it's a control of like, it's a control of every aspect of how you want something to go. And if anyone challenges that control or those decisions and like, changes your trajectory of how you want things to fall or how you want things to be placed, or how you want things to function or where you want stuff, or what you wanna keep or you don't wanna keep, if anyone disrupts that, it's like, uh, it's like taking someone Listen, 

[00:47:24] Toliy: listen, I think.

[00:47:25] Yeah. But you could, yeah, but you could bring that into any example, like when your dad is doing work at your house and he's saying, well Joe, we, we should do it this way. Like, are you being a hoarder by telling him no. Or do you just want things done differently than your dad? Like, if, if your dad is challenging 

[00:47:39] Joe: you, well it's not well because it's not el do's house and he's trying to tell you how to do some stuff in your house.

[00:47:47] That's the, that's the most challenging part where like someone else is in your domain. And that's the most challenging aspect of like getting someone that's living a certain way to see alternative ways. If I, if you came to Aldo's house and you said, uh, you know, uh, I think this should be done this way, other than like, okay, thanks for the recommendation, but like.

[00:48:09] He, you know, he or he might say, oh yeah, that, that's a good point. And, and, and move it or whatever. But in your own space is the most difficult domain to make any type of suggestion because 

[00:48:21] Toliy: that No, but how is that 

[00:48:22] Joe: full control? 

[00:48:23] Toliy: Yeah, but how does that have to do with hor hoarding, is what I'm trying to figure out.

[00:48:26] Eldar: Well, uh, I think, think I, yeah, I think that, I think that, uh, and let me, let me introduce this Joe, this little thing. Um, there was an agreement that the, the kid needed help, right? The, the kid needed help with the, with the backyard and needed help with what organization? Correct? 

[00:48:43] Joe: Yeah. 

[00:48:44] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:48:45] Joe: Yeah, 

[00:48:45] Eldar: yeah. Yes or no?

[00:48:46] Yeah. Okay. The yard is messy, yes or no? Yes. Okay. The yard needs uplifting. The yard needs help. He needs help. He's constantly saying, I need help. Okay. Yeah. The way I function, right. I want to get shit done. You know what I mean? So when I see shit, I'm thinking ahead of what can we do and how can we do things to make things right?

[00:49:11] Yeah. I automatically jump into problem solving mode, right? Yeah. For a person who has a failure to launch a situation where he can't start on his own, who asking for help, I would think that, okay, let me just take the lead. You know what I mean? For me, lemme just take the lead on this and kind of rearrange things and make things right.

[00:49:31] However, I know that he has his own ideas in his own head. Like you said, unfinished future 

[00:49:36] Toliy: ideas. Well, well, well, well, no, it's not even that. It's, it's also like, oh, cementing 

[00:49:40] Eldar: the shit. 

[00:49:40] Toliy: Like, yeah. It's like to, to me, I feel like I, I would initially not have those kind of reaction. Like ju just think, think, thinking about it.

[00:49:48] It's like when those things happen, uh, like sure. Like right now, yeah. Like I can understand what you're doing, but now I have an explanation like behind it. But when it happens, like live in the moment, you don't say like, Hey, we're gonna be cleaning up this area. Right. Well, but that's like understood though.

[00:50:04] No, no, at that moment, to me it's not understood. 

[00:50:06] Eldar: But how could it not be if we've been talking about it? That's the thing. Like, 

[00:50:09] Toliy: well, no, but just the way that it's done, it's like you're saying that that's a idea. To put it, it there and to me it's like, it's not a good idea. Go Joe. Go ahead. 

[00:50:17] Joe: That's the issue because like in the moment totally, you don't see it, but what are you, what are you guilty of?

[00:50:23] You, you, you, you have a hard time, I guess organizing or, or, or having, having functionality, let's say. Let's say, if you could admit to that, and when I say like in the moment what you don't, what Elda sees and what you don't see and, and ELs approach as aggressive approach because he already knows your reaction and he already knows the slowness in which he sees a problem that he can fix.

[00:50:47] Whether you don't look at it like a problem and it delays the overall 

[00:50:50] Toliy: No, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that there's no problems there. I'm saying that it has no, nothing to do with hoarding. 

[00:50:56] Eldar: Well, we're not saying that, we're not saying that you are a full blown hoarder here. No, but I think that there's some tendencies here, right?

[00:51:02] And certain patterns 

[00:51:02] Toliy: of No, but I'm saying that the examples that we're bringing up to, to, to me, I don't see how they have any ties to hoard, to hoarding. 

[00:51:08] Eldar: I think you gotta, yeah, go ahead Joe. 

[00:51:12] Joe: I'll say, I'll say you don't really necessarily have to be a collector or keeper of things. You could be a, a disorganized, not being able to not, not be able to, to, um, to use your space functionally.

[00:51:29] Toliy: Yeah. But that's also like of like 

[00:51:31] Joe: it's consider order. 

[00:51:31] Toliy: Yeah. But that's also of like, of opinion, right? For example. 

[00:51:34] Joe: No, no. I mean it's, it's, it's a, it's the, it's the unwillingness to like do things differently. It's the unwillingness to 

[00:51:42] Toliy: No, but I'm not unwilling to do things differently. 

[00:51:46] Joe: It take, if it takes that long of a process for you to see what ELD has saw or not able to like, have that conversation right then and there and go like, oh yeah, that makes more sense.

[00:51:58] Like, so look over to the point next time 

[00:52:00] Eldar: I'll schedule a 45 minute meeting. 

[00:52:03] Joe: Well, and that's the thing, like the way El do went at it, he already knew the reaction. He already knew the delay, and he got frustrated himself. And by his approach of just like doing it without your approval creates all that like.

[00:52:16] In between that stops the process, aggravates you, aggravates the other person trying to help. And then what hap what happens is if Elder separates himself from participating, you'll go many years not, you know, very slowly maybe not even getting to that finished product you might like as is not do anything more to your deck because of your, uh, like the way you get a way a person like yourself can get stuck in being able to move forward.

[00:52:47] That's guaranteed. There's a lot, lot of decisions to be made. There's a lot of, um, change that needs to, that get done. And, and you look at something where it's like a, it could look like such a, a, a heavy thing to lift or a lot of things to move or a lot of a very messy room and you don't know where to start and a person in your position gets frozen by that and just doesn't move forward and just stops.

[00:53:10] Toliy: Which is his 

[00:53:11] Joe: testimony 

[00:53:12] Toliy: a Sure. But I'm saying that it doesn't have to be like that, that, that, that you're a hoarder. Like it, it could just be a separate problem or, or is, or is that impossible here? 

[00:53:21] Eldar: No, I think, I think totally wants to say it's laziness. Oh, what, whatever it is. I mean, like, if it's not a good trait, it's not a good trait, it's just, 

[00:53:28] Toliy: well, no, a hundred percent.

[00:53:29] But it doesn't hap like my, 

[00:53:32] Eldar: he doesn't want, he doesn't like the word hoarder. 

[00:53:34] Joe: Totally. 

[00:53:35] Toliy: Well, no, it's not that I don't like it, it's just I'm not, I'm not understanding how, how we, we can call it that. Like we're, we're just saying if this, then that, then like, you know. 

[00:53:43] Joe: Yeah. Totally. Is there anything besides this, this specific, uh, thing that we're talking about, decision making and all that stuff, is there any physical things that, that you have lying around that shouldn't be lying around, but you know, it takes you a long time to get to throwing them out, let's say.

[00:53:58] Is there anything like that? 

[00:53:59] Eldar: Can you mention how many bags, how many bags of, uh, mail that one time you collected? Be honest here. 

[00:54:04] Toliy: How many bags of mail? 

[00:54:06] Eldar: Well, don't, don't, let's not act stupid. 

[00:54:08] Toliy: Yeah. So I, I I, 

[00:54:09] Eldar: how 

[00:54:10] Mike: many garbage? See, he 

[00:54:11] Eldar: has, he's 

[00:54:11] Mike: gonna say it's a laziness thing. Well, how, how 

[00:54:14] Eldar: you tell I don't have an attachment.

[00:54:15] Okay. You know, garbage bags, how big the 

[00:54:17] Mike: garbage bags are. Oh, I know the bags. I remember them. 

[00:54:19] Eldar: You remember 

[00:54:20] Mike: them Precisely. 

[00:54:21] Eldar: Okay. Precisely before my cousin came here 

[00:54:22] Mike: and helped him with all this. 

[00:54:23] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:54:23] Eldar: Yeah. How many bags were of mail did you have to sort through?

[00:54:30] Toliy: There was definitely a lot of mail, but it's not because like 

[00:54:33] Eldar: Can you just say it? Come on man. Well, no, because you, you're man of accountability, 

[00:54:37] Toliy: like, yeah, but what do you want me to say? 20 bags of mail? No, I should be honest. Was there one or two? I don't remember how 

[00:54:44] Joe: you 

[00:54:44] Toliy: see this. One day were like, they weren't like full, like, like it was like four or five.

[00:54:48] Yeah, but they weren't like full el It was like little quarterbacks of mail, you know, like, whatcha talking about. 

[00:54:55] Joe: That's crazy. From what date? From what date? Because as soon as mail comes to my house, I open it and I throw out the spam and we go, 

[00:55:03] Toliy: Joe 

[00:55:03] Joe: knows old this, bro. So what, from what date were you backlogged from, from a, it was 

[00:55:10] Toliy: definitely, it was definitely a while.

[00:55:14] It was definitely a while, but like, it's, it's 

[00:55:15] Joe: not, I don't care how, 

[00:55:16] Toliy: yeah. 

[00:55:17] Joe: I don't care how many bags. How old was the oldest piece of mail that you 20 

[00:55:21] Toliy: years. 20 years old from when I was a kid? No. 

[00:55:25] Joe: Come on. 

[00:55:26] Toliy: There was a, it was a birthday card from when I was five. 

[00:55:30] Joe: See, you're throwing a joke at me because.

[00:55:34] Maybe you're, maybe you're starting to understand where I'm coming from, whereas if like you had a bill or you had something, even if like, if this stuff was important, it should be open. And like you, you, you're not like opening up bills and you're becoming like, um, delinquent on stuff and things are, things are piling up and you're not doing your taxes, you're not paying your bills.

[00:55:55] Like that's a bad thing. But if they're, like, if it's like spam, oh, we 

[00:55:58] Eldar: have examples of the bad things too. 

[00:56:01] Joe: Alright. But if it's like a spam mail that, like whether you open it or not, it doesn't matter. That's like obviously less impacting on your life, but they're both, whether it's spam or affecting your life, your life, there's still that layer of hoarding of you, of you unable.

[00:56:19] Like you don't, you're not keeping it because it's cool or you're not keeping it because it's valuable. You're, you're hoarding mail because you're unable to just open it, process it, throw it out, and be done with it. That's hoarding. Okay. It's not because it's like, it, it's like, it's like, Hey man, this guy has a hundred pairs of Jordan's.

[00:56:37] Like he's a, he's a sneaker hoarder, but like, it's sick and it's worth a lot of money. So it's like, that's hoarding too. Collecting That was like the materialistic type of hoarder where it's like, uh, they maybe throw some type of addiction towards like collecting certain things and then it becomes like a little overgrown, a little, a little crazy and, but like, someone's like, oh, it's a collective item, or I can make money off of it.

[00:57:01] But before you know it, the whole bedroom is the sneakers. So it's like, let's be real, bro. You don't own a sneaker store, you don't have a business. You're fucking hoarding sneakers. But like, there's some purpose behind some of the hoarding. And then, then there's like unexplainable purposes that like, make no sense and they serve you no value, but they also affect you.

[00:57:21] So it's like, like I said, there's dirty hoarders where you're keeping empty containers of fucking Chinese food that sitting there sitting in your room for fucking months or you didn't throw your garbage out, you just throw the bags, uh, in the basement and you wind up throwing out 20 bags at the end of the month.

[00:57:36] Like, you know, there's all types of hoarding by like, the fact that you can't just get rid of your mail. That's a sign of a, of a problem, you know, and we'll call, you can't really call it lazy or, uh, unorganized. It's, it's, unfortunately it's a, it's a, it's a, um, it an aspect of Hoing early stage. Early 

[00:58:00] Eldar: stage.

[00:58:00] Joe: Yeah. 

[00:58:01] Eldar: Listen, 

[00:58:02] Joe: it's, it's, it's a version of it, but like it salad doesn't make you a bad guy or 

[00:58:06] Eldar: his mail is an actual thing. Joe, you mentioned mail because it's an actual thing. 

[00:58:10] Joe: Well, that co that constantly comes to your house. Like, my father has all the boxes that, like things come in. Yeah. He doesn't throw out the boxes and then like, it gets to a point where like there's just the room's full of boxes.

[00:58:22] Like, why is there so many boxes here? He's like, well, in case, in case I gotta use them for something. I'm like, yeah, but there's like a hundred empty boxes in this room. Like, how many things are you ever gonna be able to have to use? I need a box for that. Like, don't you see your room is only filled with boxes.

[00:58:39] You can't do anything here. And like all he sees is like the potential future value of if he ever needs a box, he has it. So he holds a hundred of them, you know, and that's just one of many things. He, he'll hold, he'll hold scrap pieces of wood, a build a million little pieces of fucking unorganized, this or that.

[00:58:59] Like, I don't throw it away because one day I might need it, you know, like this is his whole entire life. But like, the male, the unexplainable stuff, you know, um, that's hard to, like, that's hard to justify to anyone because like, why is it taking that long to throw, you know, get rid of a year old worth of mail.

[00:59:19] Like it shouldn't be in your home picking up space. You know, like what is stopping you from just processing the mail and throwing it out or, or, or having a file cabinet and keeping the things that are important. Like what, what have you, have you tried to face that yet? Totally. 

[00:59:38] Toliy: Um, yeah, I don't know. I can, I mean, like, I, I You out, yeah.

[00:59:42] He's offered. Yeah, I know how to participate in this. He's offered because like. Um, 

[00:59:46] Mike: he's off it. He's off it. 

[00:59:48] Toliy: The 

[00:59:48] Mike: subject there. 

[00:59:49] Joe: Well, it's stressful. It's stressful to even, like, go in. It's stressful to even dive into because, you know, does is like, 

[00:59:56] Toliy: he, he, he just keeps saying this like, Hey, well, no, he's being 

[00:59:58] Eldar: compassionate.

[00:59:59] Toliy: What? 

[00:59:59] Eldar: He's being compassionate. 

[01:00:00] Toliy: Well, no, he, he's just like, he, he understands the shit. He, he's, he's using like a buzz words to like, tell you how you feel without you feeling it. Like, he's like, Hey, like, I know this is tough to talk about. 

[01:00:11] Eldar: Listen, I 

[01:00:11] think, 

[01:00:11] Toliy: but then he might be raising 

[01:00:12] Eldar: a certain level of awareness.

[01:00:13] Just no, all 

[01:00:14] Toliy: orders, everything is hoarding then, then everything in life is hoarding. Like, what, what happens? For example? 

[01:00:20] Eldar: Yeah, 

[01:00:20] Toliy: there's extension. What happens if you're like, uh, you're doing something and you're failing at it in life? Well, like, I like, like I can just say 

[01:00:27] Joe: like, you didn't answer my question.

[01:00:28] Toliy: What? You 

[01:00:29] Joe: didn't answer my question. Yeah. Answer that one. What's scenario, why, why, why, what goes on in your head or your life that you can't process something that came into your house? Mail that was unopened. That's like from dated like a year, a year old. Like, how come you can't, uh, process that mail?

[01:00:48] Like you don't have, like what's the reason? 

[01:00:51] Toliy: Well, like the, the, the reason's probably 'cause like it's not important enough and I probably have other like, better things to do at that time. 

[01:01:00] Joe: Okay. So back backing up, have you ever had mail that you didn't open up that was impacting you, that actually you needed to open and address?

[01:01:09] Toliy: Probably, 

[01:01:09] Joe: yeah. Ie. Bills violations. 

[01:01:11] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:01:12] Joe: Taxes, 

[01:01:13] Toliy: yes. 

[01:01:13] Joe: Checks that you shoulda have cashed earlier, then they void 

[01:01:16] Toliy: utilities? 

[01:01:16] Joe: Yes. Okay. So, okay, so, so then not important to you. Those things are important. So then how come you couldn't get to those, like as soon as they come in? 'cause they're 

[01:01:26] Toliy: also not important enough, right?

[01:01:29] Joe: Well, how is it not well, well how, how were those things that you're saying they were important to 

[01:01:34] Toliy: you? Yeah, but could I could throw this argument? You, you could throw this argument towards anyone it, with anyone in life, at anything that they are not good at. Like, uh, 

[01:01:43] Joe: sure. 

[01:01:44] Toliy: Right? Like what you, you could just say like, Hey, like why didn't you do this better?

[01:01:49] Like, Hey, do you not find that important? Like, of course like in a different time you could find something important, but like you would have no answers. Like, if I just start throwing these questions back at you at things that you are not good at, for example, or that you struggle with, you would say the same thing, right?

[01:02:03] Like, but you would have a different 

[01:02:04] Joe: I'm not attack. I'm not, I'm totally, I'm not attacking you and, 

[01:02:08] Toliy: well, no, I'm saying, I'm, I'm saying this as, as an example, right? Like, you could just say this towards anything. Right? 

[01:02:13] Joe: Gimme, gimme one, give, gimme one. 

[01:02:15] Toliy: Well, any, any, any, anything that anyone like is not doing well.

[01:02:19] Right. 

[01:02:20] Joe: Do you know anything about me that you could gimme one or Al Mike? 

[01:02:26] Toliy: Uh. Yeah, I mean anything, right? Like, you could bring up anything. 

[01:02:30] Joe: One, 

[01:02:32] Toliy: bring one, give an example. Okay. Like, I don't know, like, uh, like, like for, uh, I mean, what, what can, what example can I bring? Um, 

[01:02:42] Joe: I'll give you a mo I'll give you all the time you need.

[01:02:44] Toliy: Okay.

[01:02:48] Like, for example, like unlocking your shed, like, right. Like, like why don't you just unlock it like five years ago, for example? Or like, why don't you just unlock it right away? Like, may, may, may, maybe now you have a different perspective of it, right? But like, you couldn't just, like, why don't you address that at that time?

[01:03:06] Right. Like, I'm, I'm saying that the concept of what you're saying, it could be applied to anything, but the reason that someone doesn't do something or address something, is that probably because at that time it's not that important to that person. That's why they don't do it, right. 

[01:03:20] Joe: Well, it wasn't, I wouldn't say it was, it was the importance of it.

[01:03:24] I would say I grew up conditioned by my father. Everything needed to be locked. Everything. Um, yeah. 

[01:03:31] Toliy: But why didn't, yeah, but why didn't you work on getting unconditioned earlier? Like, you know, well, 

[01:03:36] Joe: well be, be, because 

[01:03:37] Toliy: like, why didn't you put that a, like, why didn't you put that a priority in your life?

[01:03:41] Joe: Okay, well, putting the lock on, right. The way I justified it was it takes me two seconds to unlock the lock when I need to get in. So it wasn't that much of a delay, um, in my life, but I had things stolen from me, so. The, the justification was, I don't want more things to be stolen, and I wasn't comfortable yet with the area I live in to realize that it's not really of a risk, but the area I did live in and the areas that I, if I ever, I learned early, if you left something unlocked, it was gonna get stolen.

[01:04:12] So I was just conditioned that way. You know, our cars were constantly getting broken into our houses, were constantly getting broken into, but now I'm in a better, a better area. An elder nudged me and said, Hey man, you gotta stop thinking you live in Brooklyn. You live in Westchester now things are different.

[01:04:29] And I'm like, yeah, I know it's hard for me to, 

[01:04:30] Toliy: well, no, I, I know what happened, but I, I'm saying that the point of, the point of this argument of what I'm saying is that like, that this argument can be used to anyone with something that they're not doing that, that that's like that that great, right. That, that, that's what I'm trying to point out.

[01:04:44] Eldar: Yeah. But yeah, sure you can, but, but the overgrowth happens. Right? And when the overgrowth starts happening, how far do you say, okay, is this just kind of one of those things where I'm kind of lazy about or kind of let it past? Or is it now a problem? You know what I'm saying? He's what he's saying, what Joe was saying, that it starts to affect your other things, right?

[01:05:02] Toliy: No, 

[01:05:02] Eldar: for sure. Your house overgrows, there's dirt everywhere. You can walk around the shit, your, your, your utilities gets cut off. You get warning signs of this. It's 

[01:05:10] Toliy: impactful. 

[01:05:11] Eldar: It's becoming I impactful. 

[01:05:12] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:05:13] Eldar: Like where, where is that threshold, right? 

[01:05:15] Toliy: Well, no, but it's, 

[01:05:16] Eldar: Joe could have continued being like closing the fucking shed.

[01:05:18] I don't think it would've impacted his life in, in any 

[01:05:21] Toliy: No, but I'm saying that crazy way, his way of questioning, like, why didn't you do that? Or why didn't you do that? I'm saying that like, that kind of question can be applied to anyone and anything that they're doing that, that's like wrong, right? Like if somebody has like a poor relationship with, I don't know, like a family member, right?

[01:05:36] You could ask him, well, why didn't you get a better relationship faster? Or like, why didn't you put that a priority faster? I think 

[01:05:41] Eldar: he's asking the question to see what's your reasoning behind the answer and why 

[01:05:44] Toliy: is this No, but what's, what's my reasoning for what he's saying? Why didn't you get to the mail?

[01:05:47] And I'm explaining to him that like, because obviously it's not that important to me. Yeah. And then he is like, yeah, but look, you, uh, you, you had, you had like an issue with something that like you didn't open. Okay. And that's also not that important to, to me, right? Yeah. So then like, like, 

[01:06:02] Eldar: so, so, 

[01:06:02] Toliy: okay, so, okay.

[01:06:03] I didn't get why he was questioning me. The thing is in the way that he was questioning me because like you could throw back that level of questioning to anybody as to why they didn't 

[01:06:11] Eldar: Okay, sure. 

[01:06:11] Toliy: Do things. 

[01:06:12] Eldar: Okay. But then the question, the question is, okay. How many bags or how much mail has to accumulate in order for it to say, okay, now this is important.

[01:06:21] Toliy: Well, yeah. That it would have to affect you if, if you have a 500 square, well, 

[01:06:24] Eldar: there you go. 

[01:06:25] Toliy: Well, yeah. If you have a, for example, if you have a 500 square foot uhhuh living space and 300 square feet, or a even a hundred square feet of that is male or some garbage. 

[01:06:34] Eldar: The, the threshold is the affecting part.

[01:06:35] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:06:36] Eldar: And I think that for him, maybe it's a, it's a much longer stretch than somebody else's. 

[01:06:40] Toliy: Well, no, no, 

[01:06:41] Eldar: yeah, 

[01:06:41] Toliy: no, but it's, that's 

[01:06:42] Eldar: it. 

[01:06:42] Toliy: No, but that, that's the point for everything if like 

[01:06:44] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:06:44] Toliy: You have a metal detector 

[01:06:46] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:06:46] Toliy: You said, right? 

[01:06:46] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:06:47] Toliy: Okay. Yeah. If this be detector was in the same place that you need to sleep, would you move it?

[01:06:51] Eldar: Yeah, probably. 

[01:06:52] Toliy: Okay. 

[01:06:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:06:53] Toliy: But because it's not, yeah, it's not something that's like, uh, um, yeah, like affecting you one way or another, and I'm pretty sure that if someone went into your house and stole, stole it, like, and everything else, like if you guys were safe or like whatever, yeah. You're not gonna lose sleep over it, right?

[01:07:09] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:07:09] Joe: No, but totally. 

[01:07:10] Toliy: Right. 

[01:07:10] Joe: Totally. Let's say, let's say you didn't have this size house, because you can get away with what you're getting away with. 

[01:07:16] Toliy: No, I know. But you're then bringing, you're 

[01:07:17] Joe: your own and 

[01:07:18] Toliy: Yeah. But then you're bringing examples that aren't real, so like, well, yeah, of course. I'll agree with you, Joe.

[01:07:23] If, if I have a, if I, if I have a 500 square foot, if I have a 500 square foot living space, you 300, you 

[01:07:31] Joe: have no problem on hands. 

[01:07:32] Toliy: I, I definitely would. I hundred percent agree with you. There's no doubt. 

[01:07:35] Joe: But you're enabled, you're, you're enabled to keep all that mail and it doesn't really affect your every day.

[01:07:41] It's onlining problem. Whereas if you looked at my, uh, concern of being robbed to get into my shed, I, I've turned a few numbers and open, open the door. The difference between me getting in the shed is like five to 10 seconds of just putting in the, so it's not restricting me from like getting in my shed or living a quick, you know, getting to my tools quickly.

[01:08:04] It's just So, it's one level of protection. Like the, the reason why we lock. Well, that's a 

[01:08:09] Toliy: very minor, that's a very minor example, obviously. 

[01:08:12] Joe: Yeah. It's, you 

[01:08:12] Toliy: know, 

[01:08:12] Joe: but, but, but you, you threw that at me saying I'm what you're doing wrong. 

[01:08:16] Toliy: Well, no, you're saying 

[01:08:17] Joe: you're doing 

[01:08:17] Toliy: wrong. No, no, no, no, Joe, that's one. I'm, I'm not saying that.

[01:08:21] I was just bringing it up as an example of like the way that you were questioning me that you were asking me. I'm saying that I can throw back that kind of questioning back to you. Yeah, but it didn't 

[01:08:31] Joe: apply. 

[01:08:32] Toliy: Well, no, but I saying, I wasn't trying to say, I wasn't trying to compare you that the, the, what I was saying was not trying to compare, uh, my males sit situation and your shed.

[01:08:43] But the only thing that I was trying to do was the way that you were questioning me, right? The way that you were questioning me is that you kept making me answer a question that it's like, unan answerable, right? And I'm saying that if I use that 

[01:08:56] Joe: well, I answered mine. 

[01:08:57] Toliy: Well, it, it not really. You know, like it, well, 

[01:09:01] Joe: I mean, not really 

[01:09:02] Toliy: afraid something, do you know what I'm saying?

[01:09:04] Or no? Or, or no. Like do you have a better way of ex explain. Do you, you understand? I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm not trying to compare my, my, my, my, my, uh, male situation to, to Joe. She right. You I know this. Understand, I know this. I'm saying that like, yeah, if like, you could break up all I was trying to say is that the way that Joe was like, talk, talking to me.

[01:09:22] Joe: Alright. 

[01:09:22] Toliy: If I talk back to him in that kind of way with any problem that he, he has, you would have no answer for it, right? 

[01:09:28] Mike: No, but 

[01:09:29] Eldar: you not to have an 

[01:09:29] Toliy: answer 

[01:09:29] Eldar: though. 

[01:09:30] Toliy: But I brought a very minor one, you know, 

[01:09:33] Mike: but I'm 

[01:09:33] Eldar: saying that 

[01:09:35] Mike: Joe's not denying like 

[01:09:36] Eldar: no, no, no. But he's behavior this way. No, but the way, the way totally answered the male thing is like, to me, I completely understand it.

[01:09:42] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:09:42] Eldar: It's, I think it's very valid that he said, look, the thing is like those three, four bags, they don't, they don't bother me. Now the 30 bags might not bother him. 

[01:09:51] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:09:51] Eldar: Right. 

[01:09:52] Mike: I agree. 

[01:09:52] Eldar: I think the 50 bags might not bother him either. 

[01:09:55] Mike: Yeah. As 

[01:09:55] Eldar: long as, but that's his choice is to say like what bothers him or what doesn't bother him mm-hmm.

[01:09:58] Is a subjective experience. Sure. You know what I'm saying? And I think he's, as a hoarder, you have a right to that, to that type of, of, uh, influence on yourself. Others. 

[01:10:08] Mike: Absolutely. 

[01:10:09] Joe: Lifestyle is how you decide you 

[01:10:11] Eldar: wanna, it's up to you. Yeah. We have, we have no, we have no right to say otherwise. That wasn't 

[01:10:15] Toliy: No, but in, in that example, no.

[01:10:17] Like, of course if there was like, you're bringing extreme examples in comparison to to what? To what? To what? There was 

[01:10:25] Eldar: let, I'm not bringing anything up. You said there 50. No, I'm just saying. No, no, I'm, I'm saying that it's up to you to decide the threshold of what's, what's a lot and what's not. Not up to me, 

[01:10:35] Joe: but 

[01:10:36] Eldar: based on the way he answer, sir, you said, yo, I, I live in a fucking 2000 square foot house, bro.

[01:10:42] You know what I mean? If my mail, I can live perfectly fine in a, in a thousand so I can fill up my house to the half. Yeah. So fuck off. And I agree with him. 

[01:10:49] Toliy: No, 

[01:10:49] Eldar: that's 

[01:10:49] Toliy: not 

[01:10:50] Joe: what I'm saying. Charlie, let's not talk about quantity or, or being No, I think 

[01:10:55] Eldar: it's a very, I think it's a 

[01:10:56] Joe: very good point. Let's answer, just answer the question.

[01:10:58] Was there anything in there that affected your life, whether they shut utilities off or you owed more money because you didn't see the bills that were piling up? Hundred percent being delinquent and paid. 

[01:11:08] Eldar: Hundred 

[01:11:09] Toliy: percent. 

[01:11:09] Joe: Okay. So when something is affecting your, you know, your, your, let's say monetarily, you say, yeah, you know.

[01:11:18] Why, why, why wouldn't you rather not paying fines? Or why wouldn't you rather, you know, um, like checks that you could cash than now void it. Okay. Very good. Very good. Why wouldn't, why, like why don't you prefer to just like do it as a Okay, I 

[01:11:35] Eldar: got it. Don't answer. I got it. I got it. Thank you. Because he's got bigger fish to fry.

[01:11:42] Joe: Okay. Um, 

[01:11:43] Eldar: no, what I care saying is that care, that type of who care, who cares Joe about saying a hundred? Fine. Who cares about 

[01:11:49] Toliy: No, no. All not cashing a hundred. 

[01:11:51] Eldar: Check. 

[01:11:51] Toliy: Who gives a fuck that form of questioning, right? It's like anything that it, that, that, that we're doing in our individual lives that we don't like.

[01:12:00] Like if you just throw back that questioning, right? Like what answers are you gonna have? 

[01:12:04] Eldar: Well, I'm giving them the answer. 

[01:12:05] Toliy: No. Well, no, no. You, you're saying something else that's a 

[01:12:08] Eldar: validate. 

[01:12:09] Mike: No, he's saying the truth. That's not important. You, you're, who cares? 

[01:12:13] Eldar: Joe Joe's 

[01:12:13] Toliy: No, no, 

[01:12:14] Eldar: no. But I'm saying, I'm saying that 

[01:12:15] Toliy: like, Joe's asking me like, Hey, 

[01:12:17] Eldar: no, Joe put, know that 

[01:12:18] Toliy: this is affecting you, but like 

[01:12:19] Eldar: he's putting a value proposition because to him he values not paying fines and you don't, and that's a perfectly fine answer.

[01:12:26] Mike: Yeah, that's fine. 

[01:12:27] Eldar: Joe. Values not paying fines and cashing his checks to come in. You don't, and that's okay. 

[01:12:33] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:12:33] Eldar: Like you have bigger fish to fry, for example. 

[01:12:35] Mike: A hundred percent. 

[01:12:38] Eldar: That's it. You saw them Bigger problems, like 

[01:12:40] Joe: money. Yeah. Than just money. Money's not a problem, or utilities are not a problem.

[01:12:44] Yeah. 

[01:12:44] Joe: Yeah. Shut off. Like for me, that would, that would affect my life more significant. That's why like I'm on top of it. Yeah. That's 

[01:12:50] Mike: your problem. 

[01:12:51] Joe: Lemme ask, lemme ask you a question. Besides mail, is there anything else that you could honestly say that, like, builds up or that you have an issue either throwing out or keeping organized?

[01:13:03] Like, or getting to? 

[01:13:04] Toliy: For sure. For sure. There definitely are other things. Yeah. Like small, a small fetish towards cardboard. Yeah. Like I definitely have cardboard build up.

[01:13:18] Joe: Why, 

[01:13:19] Toliy: why do I, why, why, why does it build up? 

[01:13:22] Joe: Yeah. Because my, my, my dad's answer is, he, he needs to use this for something. 

[01:13:26] Toliy: No, I definitely don't need to, to, to use them. And if someone was willing to just go in there and do it. Ev ev every ev every time for me on time I have, I, I like, I have no problem throwing these things out.

[01:13:37] Um, what I do. Yeah. But I do have either bigger fish to fry at times or, um, or, or it doesn't bother me in that kind of way where I feel like I need to do something about it. Right. Right away. But there are, but there are times, but like, um. Where I can get into a mode of cleaning things or organizing things and doing stuff.

[01:13:59] But I have, like I said, if you take that smoker away from me, you're like saying, Hey, I'm taking it right. I'm 

[01:14:04] Joe: not, let's not, let's not bounce all over the place. Totally. I asked you one question, how much cardboards accumulate before you clean it up? What, 

[01:14:11] Toliy: what do you want me to give you? Like a square footage or what?

[01:14:14] Joe: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gimme like, um, would it fit in your, in the side, in the space of your kitchen? Like that room or less? 

[01:14:22] Toliy: Like what, what would it fill up? The whole kitchen, you're saying from, from ceiling to floor? 

[01:14:26] Joe: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, no, no. Like just the floor. Like can you walk 

[01:14:30] Toliy: easy? 

[01:14:30] Joe: Yeah. The whole kitchen. 

[01:14:33] Toliy: No, it would be less.

[01:14:35] Joe: Well, Alda and Mike, you said yes or no? 

[01:14:38] Mike: Yeah. Well, uh, based on what I remember, I had my cousin, do I remember how much cardboard 

[01:14:42] Eldar: there was, bro? You could fill the whole house on the floor with cardboard. Like you, I 

[01:14:45] Mike: was, I was in the basement last week. Uhhuh 

[01:14:47] Eldar: the 

[01:14:47] Mike: basement. Looks like a bomb. Went off in there with a cardboard.

[01:14:50] Okay, well there's just cardboard everywhere. Yeah. I don't know if it changed, but 

[01:14:53] Joe: Yeah. Alright, so, so, so this is my dad. Right. But he has use, he, he potentially has use for it, whereas Tony doesn't have time or care for that in his way. Yeah. And you know, he has other, so my question is like, if, if money's not a problem for you and you don't have the time to do these things, the time is more important to you.

[01:15:12] Why don't just pay someone to just get rid of it for you? Like a cleaning lady? 

[01:15:16] Eldar: They get paid too much. Yes. 

[01:15:19] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:15:20] Eldar: She doesn't agree with $60 an hour. 

[01:15:23] Joe: But if you don't care about cashing that check or paying that fine, then why wouldn't you be okay with just paying someone to clean up the garbage that is not serving you any?

[01:15:32] It's 

[01:15:33] Toliy: not important. It's not, it's not important. It's not that I don't care about paying the fine, it's just like when it happens at the moment, like in in, in my life in general, there's a lot of different things going on in, in my life, you know? So yeah. When like I have to pay extra for something that I didn't pay in time, like, like, uh, the water bill, for example, and it like they charge me $30 interest.

[01:15:53] Like, like, 

[01:15:54] Joe: yeah, that's, 

[01:15:56] Toliy: do I like paying, paying for that? No, but like, I also, not a problem, but I, I, I also like had reasons as to why, like, it probably didn't happen that way is because I probably had more than $30 problems at that time, but I'm not. 

[01:16:10] Joe: Okay. Would you, so would you pay for a cleaning lady always be on top of your trash like cardboard collection?

[01:16:18] Mike: Unless joking guarantee that by cleaning up the problems that Joe deems important, it would solve the fish that's always frying or help him. I think it's just like, yeah, it's a value proposition. Yeah. 

[01:16:30] Joe: But, but, but like, do, do you see any value in having someone that cleans up all the garbage? So you don't have to do that, do you, do you see any value in that?

[01:16:37] Toliy: Sure. Yeah. 

[01:16:39] Joe: Would, would you hire someone to do that? Is that something you're comfortable with? 

[01:16:42] Toliy: Yeah, I would be 

[01:16:43] Joe: comfortable with, 

[01:16:45] Toliy: yeah, I would be comfortable with that. 

[01:16:48] Joe: Okay. Because that, you know, like that's something that like, whether, you know something 

[01:16:53] Toliy: true ho's not gonna allow, 

[01:16:55] Joe: what else? Yeah. What else builds up that is in your way or you just don't have the time or patience to like, have to deal with was mail and cardboard?

[01:17:04] Is there anything else besides that? Yeah, but see 

[01:17:06] Toliy: again, like we're saying the word in your way. 

[01:17:10] Joe: Well, because the reason why it's not in your way again. 

[01:17:13] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:17:14] Joe: But your house is humongous and you're one person. 

[01:17:16] Toliy: I know, but like, what are we, what? Like what, like what, what if El D's house was, uh, 50 square feet and his, uh, and, and, and his, uh, metal detector took, took up 20 of it.

[01:17:28] Like, 

[01:17:29] Joe: no, because totally there. Those are, the reason why I'm bringing this up is your house enables you to not care about the things better. But, 

[01:17:37] Toliy: but 

[01:17:37] Joe: yeah. But everything, 

[01:17:38] Toliy: but 

[01:17:38] Joe: yeah. But that for all 

[01:17:39] Toliy: scenarios, 

[01:17:40] Joe: no, but my apartment, the, the apartment I lived in, we had, uh, four people living, four kids and, you know, my two parents and, and, and, uh, and pets.

[01:17:49] So my, you know, my house was, they, it was still clotted, it was still garbage. But like, we helped my father maintain the living space and he had like no sailor because like there was no room for it. But when he did have room to be buried alive was the basement. And as soon as he had access and nobody was like.

[01:18:09] Um, you know, in his, in his way or requiring that space to like be functional, he was buried alive by it. He couldn't even get in the basement. And I used to come over and be like, dad, this is a fire hazard dad. This is, this is like, this is terrible. Like you gotta get rid of this shit. And he looked at it like he never saw any issue with it.

[01:18:28] But the fact is that you have enough space where it doesn't create a problem for you, which, and you don't see it as a problem, but you have, you and my father have the same tendencies or same rebuttals to why can't it just be done? But you look at it like it's not a problem and I could, I could throw it right back at you type thing.

[01:18:49] But my last question is, besides mail and cardboard, is there anything else that you collect or, or take some space or you have a hard time processing or, or having functional ability to like move forward and not get stuck in? Is there anything else 

[01:19:07] Toliy: else? I dunno. Other, is there anything else? 

[01:19:10] Eldar: Uh, how about this one?

[01:19:12] Do hoarders usually, uh, leave their dishes inside dishwasher so long that they lose the patina?

[01:19:22] Joe: So it, I mean. That's, uh, leaving stuff that should like, you fill your dishwasher and when it's done, you should unload it and put it away. 

[01:19:32] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:19:33] Joe: This is, like I said, all these things that you just stop doing what needs to like, you stop doing what you need to get done, um, are like order procrastination, um, laziness, uh, of like, uh, tendencies.

[01:19:51] And I've already had enough of a conversation to know that, you know, totally has all of that. Whether he collects unnecessarily things, build up things he doesn't get to, uh, things that he should just be doing. Be, now I'm not gonna, I'm not judging him by saying this. I'm not saying, you know, he's wrong for doing it.

[01:20:11] I'm just saying that like, 

[01:20:12] Eldar: is this a session of raising awareness or is this a, is this an intervention? 

[01:20:16] Joe: Yes. Brought up the lock thing. You go, can you just take the lock off? And I said, sure, I'll take the lock off. And you know, you put like a layer of like, Hey, why don't you just try this out because if anything gets stolen, you know, obviously No, that wasn't the reasoning 

[01:20:35] Toliy: for me.

[01:20:36] That had nothing to do with the reason I brought, I'm bringing up the lock. It, it was just your way. I know it, it was just the way that you're questioning me. I'm saying that like 

[01:20:44] Joe: totally. Did I change, did I change, did I take the lock off? 

[01:20:47] Toliy: No, that wasn't the point of, again, I think you're missing the point of what I'm saying.

[01:20:51] Point, point. You're missing the point of what I'm saying. 

[01:20:54] Joe: My point is that I take the lock off. 

[01:20:56] Toliy: No, but no, but you're, you're missing the point of why I was saying what I was saying. 

[01:21:00] Joe: Okay. But do you see my point when Alda suggested to say, you laughed at me. Alda laughed at me. Then he said, take the lock off.

[01:21:07] Did I do it 

[01:21:09] Toliy: well, no. Sure, but that's not what I was bringing up. That that has 

[01:21:12] Joe: nothing to do with it. I'm what I'm saying. I'm saying, did you see that I lived my whole life a certain way, a certain concept or a certain 

[01:21:20] Toliy: Okay. 

[01:21:20] Joe: You know, way of, way of doing things. And when someone threw a different way of doing it, at first I Rebutt or I, I, I, I fought, there was friction.

[01:21:29] But what did I do? At the end of the day, I'm taking, I'm taking a different approach with a suggestion of someone else. 

[01:21:37] Toliy: Okay. And I do that all the 

[01:21:38] Joe: time. I, which, which I realized, I realized at that moment I had this attachment to this specific way of doing things. And it was ridiculed a sense where, like I said.

[01:21:50] You know, it, it doesn't really bother me, but like it's in a sense, maybe a little irrational at this point. Maybe these guys are right. Maybe if it wasn't brought up awareness wise to me, I would still be locking it. 

[01:22:03] Yeah. 

[01:22:03] Joe: But a certain 

[01:22:04] Eldar: point. But yeah. But I Yeah, but you also, but you also, Joe, but you also, you also were given a, uh, an offer you couldn't refuse.

[01:22:09] We said we're gonna insure 

[01:22:10] Joe: Sure. 

[01:22:10] Eldar: Everything that's inside the shed, 

[01:22:12] Joe: it, it was insurance, but, but, but what the good part about it is be 

[01:22:15] Eldar: fair 

[01:22:16] Joe: after a certain amount of time when I realized it doesn't get robbed, this is like that whole like insurance thing. It doesn't matter whether it's there or not. I'm gonna see that It's like not serving me to lock my shed.

[01:22:27] Yeah. But I'm 

[01:22:28] Toliy: not, but I'm not making the argument. 

[01:22:30] Joe: I'm not 

[01:22:30] Toliy: doing it. Yeah. But Joe, I'm not making an argument ar around like the throwing out the mail or organizing the cardboard. I'm not saying that like, Hey Joe, these are actually bad ideas. Or like, Hey, like what you're actually saying is actually not good.

[01:22:42] My only, the, the only thing I was saying was that the way that you were questioning me and what you were saying. That I'm, I'm, I'm saying that if there was something in your life that you're unhappy with or that like you messed up, right? You could just throw that back into someone's face and say like, Hey, well why don't you address this earlier?

[01:23:01] Why don't you do do that? Why don't you ask for help? And like, of course the person's gonna have no answers because like, they're gonna either have reasons as to why they didn't or like they're not gonna have answers for you. And I'm saying that like that, that that's what you were doing when you were saying that.

[01:23:15] But I have no arguments again. Okay. I I have no arguments against saying that. Like, Hey, organizing the basement is a good idea. Keeping things in place is a good idea. Being on top of this. Like, like I'm not sitting here saying that. Like, okay. Totally. Hey, hey Joe. Like, there, there, there's actually a ton of utility for these boxes or like this mail and like, I really need, need it.

[01:23:34] And I don't want you to touch it. I'm saying 

[01:23:36] Joe: that your breath, your breath, how long have you lived in that house? For? 

[01:23:41] Toliy: For over four years. 

[01:23:43] Joe: And is this the first time you're being addressed by it or is it the first time they're, they're recommending any, any, any alternative? 

[01:23:50] Toliy: No, it's not 

[01:23:50] Joe: the first time to problem.

[01:23:52] So when did they bring it up? To? 

[01:23:54] Toliy: Plenty of times. 

[01:23:55] Joe: How long ago? How long ago was it? Was the oldest attempt that they, they, I don't know, said, Hey man, 

[01:24:01] Toliy: I don't know. There, there, there, there's been plenty of this 

[01:24:03] Joe: like three years ago. So, so at, at what point does someone have to keep suggesting when they see a problem that you don't see or that you refuse to address or change?

[01:24:16] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:24:16] Joe: How long is it gonna take where someone has to constantly throw that in your face to raise the awareness of like, why can a smart guy like yourself that, that could analyze things and, and streamline things and, and like understand like what's the best way to do things? How come it's taking three to four years for you to like change your behavior?

[01:24:37] Whereas when El said, Hey, unlock your shed, because he saw it and he said it, and I, I changed almost immediately to, to just give it a try because I was like, alright, I'll do it. And I, and I did it. It didn't take him four years to tell me, take that goddamn lock off that fucking shed. I did it right away.

[01:24:54] Why is it taking you so long to just make these little adjustments that are like, oh, obviously 

[01:25:00] Toliy: Well, no, but there's been Yeah, but you're, 

[01:25:01] Joe: I'm not a problem in yours. 

[01:25:02] Toliy: Yeah, but you're making an assumption that there has not been plenty of progress on different things that they, they've done. 

[01:25:07] Joe: Oh, I don't doubt.

[01:25:08] I don't doubt that you've made progress. 

[01:25:09] Toliy: Well, that's what I'm saying. So then why are you, why are 

[01:25:11] Joe: you, 

[01:25:12] Toliy: why are you saying that? Like, hey, like why aren't you doing this? 

[01:25:16] Joe: Mike just said he went down there and it looked like a bomb went off. And that's a telltale sign of like, whether you, whether you try to shed the issue or fix the problem.

[01:25:25] Toliy: No, no, no. But what am I denying here? It's 

[01:25:27] Joe: back. 

[01:25:27] Toliy: No, no, I know, but like, why are you like, scolding me about this? I don't understand. Like, why are you like, 

[01:25:32] Joe: this is the, this is the way people feel in your position. You feel like you're being scolded or being attacked and 

[01:25:38] Toliy: that's why Well, no, because Well, no, and that's 

[01:25:41] Joe: why so 

[01:25:41] hard 

[01:25:41] Toliy: to get through you.

[01:25:42] No, no, but I understand. Like what, what, what am I not getting here? Elda. Okay. Can Joe, Joe, you're 

[01:25:46] not, 

[01:25:46] Eldar: Joe's a 

[01:25:47] Toliy: robot. 

[01:25:47] Eldar: Joe. Joe, it sounds like Joe is raising awareness that you might have telltale signs of early stage of hoarding. Yeah. 

[01:25:53] Toliy: No, but I'm saying that like, hey, like I agree. That're a smart guy. No. Yeah.

[01:25:57] But so are you Joe. Right? And do you have problems? 

[01:25:59] Joe: Yes. I mean, other than the, the, other than that one problem you brought up about the lock, like if there are any uh, yeah, I try to fix them and if someone has, I don't fight them on it. 

[01:26:12] Toliy: Yeah, 

[01:26:13] Eldar: that's not true. 

[01:26:14] Toliy: Yeah. Come on Joe. Are you lying to yourself here?

[01:26:16] Eldar: You, you put a little bit of resistance for sure. Everybody 

[01:26:19] Toliy: puts up 

[01:26:19] Eldar: resistance. 

[01:26:20] Toliy: Okay. You, you had a stroke before, right? 

[01:26:23] Joe: Yeah. 

[01:26:24] Toliy: Okay. Why were you shoveling that snow? Did you think it was a good idea? Are you not serious about your health? 

[01:26:31] Joe: Well, yeah, that, that was bad. That's what I'm 

[01:26:34] Toliy: for. Yeah. Has, has der been telling, telling you for a long time, yo, stop being cheap.

[01:26:37] Why don't you just hire somebody? Were you doing bathroom? 

[01:26:41] Joe: Correct. 

[01:26:41] Toliy: Okay. Were you doing housework that you're not supposed to be doing? 

[01:26:46] Joe: Yes, I did. 

[01:26:46] Toliy: You're a smart person, Joe. I agree that you're a smart person, right? I'm not saying that you're a dumb ass, but I think that me and you both at different times could be dumb asses in different aspects of our life that could be different.

[01:26:58] Where like this cardboard thing, this male thing for you is like a flick of the wrist. It's one afternoon Benny's playing there. You could just bang it out, no problem. Or me saying that like, Hey, I have a stiff back. I'm gonna hire somebody to rake my leaves or to do this. Or like, like we, we could solve each other's problems in different ways and we could struggle 'em or not, but like I I, I could sit here and say like, Hey, why did you do that?

[01:27:21] Why did you work all those hours? Why did you do this? And like, what, what, what answers would you have for me here? 

[01:27:28] Joe: The answer, the answer I have totally, unfortunately, is I can't, as much as I would like to afford to just have hired to help, the reason why I went against everyone's suggestions and like obviously rational, um, opinion was because I can't afford to hire them.

[01:27:44] And like at the time when Elda told me, hire the people I did, and I used all my money and I took out my retirement money, I took out all my savings and I used it for them to build my house. I pitched in to do whatever I can to save as much, but I blew through everything. And to hire someone to shovel, I didn't have the money.

[01:28:06] I go month to month. The, the, the, the pension I have pays, pays the just the living expenses we just get by. At the moment, moment, I can't make any more money. Um, and I'm, my hands are tied. So I, I go against the best judgment and do the, the physical work, even though I shouldn't be doing it because of money problems.

[01:28:29] You know, it's not because I have the money and I don't choose to spend it, I just don't have the money right now. 

[01:28:33] Toliy: Okay. But there's, you might be a money hoarder. 

[01:28:35] Joe: That's my answer. 

[01:28:37] Toliy: Yeah. Are you a money 

[01:28:38] Joe: hoarder? No, I have no money. I, I, I have no money. You know what I mean? Like, I, I wanna get to a position where I don't, uh, I could treat myself to not having to do the physical 

[01:28:48] Toliy: labor.

[01:28:48] Yeah. Well, well, yeah. But, but my, my point of bringing this up, right, mainly is that like, then you could keep going down the line, we're like, well, why did you spend all your money? You know? And then you, you would, like, we would all have re reasons for it, but it doesn't mean that like we're complete morons, right?

[01:29:03] That like, sure, I could have a problem with this, but I could also solve other problems or do other things. And like, at different times in my life, I have a lot of things going on. And to me, in those times, the last thing on my mind is going to sort the mail. But there are times where like, Hey, I feel really good.

[01:29:21] And then like, um, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll be motivated and then I'll go and I'll tackle something, you know? But it doesn't mean that like 

[01:29:29] Tom: sure. 

[01:29:30] Toliy: Just just because like I could be smart at some things. It does not mean that I'm a complete dumb ass and other things. And that is the reality, Joe, is that I am extremely smart in some things and a dumb ass in other things.

[01:29:42] And same thing, I think with all of us. We're, we're all very good or very smart at some things, but then like to someone else that'd be like, yo, why is that guy doing that? Like, is he dumb? Right. 

[01:29:53] Joe: Well, I, I hear what you're saying. I mean, it's not like you're not making a good argument. And I know that you say like all these things, you don't have attachments to physically, if someone threw your smoker out, like you wouldn't care.

[01:30:03] Like, so it's not like a hoarder attachment. 

[01:30:06] Toliy: That's what I was, that's what I was trying to say. 

[01:30:09] Joe: But, but I know, but I'm not saying you have attachments to things and you don't wanna throw them out because, because of the, the item or the value? The value to it. Or like, yeah. You, you hold no value. You have, you have no value.

[01:30:22] Like you're like a, a monk or like, if everything disappears tomorrow, you wouldn't care and it wouldn't affect you. So 

[01:30:28] Toliy: No, I'm not like 

[01:30:29] Joe: that. That's not what I'm saying. 

[01:30:30] Toliy: I'm not like that. No, no, Joe, I'm not like that. Well, I'm not a monk. 

[01:30:33] Joe: Okay. Oh, oh, okay. So you do have like care, you do care if everything did disappear.

[01:30:38] Toliy: Of course, of course. I'm not saying sitting here saying I'm a monk, 

[01:30:42] Joe: but I'm saying, but I'm not, but I'm not talking about like daring whether or not your material, your material things get stolen or not, or get thrown out or not. It's more of like, I think what I think what people fail to see in like the hoarding aspect is.

[01:30:58] The, the, the main, the main like conflict I have with my father is like his inability to structure, organize, use a functional space that's hoarding whether or not, like it's just mail collecting or cardboard collecting or not being able to move this over here so you could walk through here or use this over there.

[01:31:18] That's, that's the psychological disorganization, hoarding, uh, uh, issue that holds people from like, just making like life easier or, or just like things, things, uh, work out better now. Like, you know, pointing, pointing the finger at like whether or not it serves you or affects you or like, uh, a bothers you.

[01:31:43] That's not like whether or not something considers like a problem or for like that, like, you know, for most people borders, it doesn't, nothing they do bothers them at all. That's a problem. 

[01:31:55] Toliy: No, no. What I mean, but Joe, I'm not saying, but I'm not telling you sitting here saying that like, Hey, what this is is good.

[01:32:01] I'm not saying that, and I'm not disagreeing with you that addressing these things is also good. I'm not saying that right. Like, I'm not making that argument saying that like, no, hey, like this is gonna serve some, or like this, this has like utility or like, no, I might need, need this or like that. Like, I'm not disagreeing with you that like addressing these, the, these things are good, but for me to man to manage all of these things.

[01:32:27] Um, also, but, but, but also work on my, my, my like self and the, uh, my, my, my own problems I have. That has proven to be a challenge to me at times where like, I just wanna, like, like for for ex for example, not having like regular anxiety is like a completely new concept for me. Getting like good sleep is a new concept for, for, for, for me, ho hopefully soon it won't be a new, a new one, but more of like a permanent one.

[01:32:54] Just, just, just normal. But like, those to me are like, like not having a daily, a daily like fear for like, I don't know, my family or like di different things that has a new phenomenon for me, you know? So the, when, when, when that's going on, the last thing you think about is male, right? So to me it's like, yeah, the, the, the, um, the organization of those things to me is like when you see me on top of the, like, like when you see me continuously be on top of more and more things, that's probably me being in a better place and being at a place of surplus where like, hey, I have like now all the time in the world because my time is not being, um, my, my time is not being, uh, consumed with other things.

[01:33:42] So that, that's what I've been slowly. Working on and, and chipping away. But again, I'm not sitting here defending, um, I'm not saying here defending that these are not all good ideas and good concepts. Okay. The only thing that I, I'm, I'm saying is that like, yeah, like, again, like there, there's not one item in my house that if you like, again, like if there was a good reason to throw it away or stuff like that, you only 

[01:34:04] Eldar: have an issue with moving things.

[01:34:06] Toliy: Well, well, no, sometimes, some, sometimes in the moment without explanation. My, my, my, my mind's not able to be like, okay, Eldar saying put it there. And I'm like, okay, just put it there. 

[01:34:16] Eldar: I didn't say like, put it there and cement it in. 

[01:34:18] Toliy: Well, well, yeah, but it's on 

[01:34:19] Eldar: wheels. 

[01:34:20] Toliy: Well, no, sure, but I'm saying that in my mind.

[01:34:22] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:34:22] Toliy: The way that you were saying that was like, you felt like it would be a good idea there. And even when I said it, you're like, oh no, there actually is plenty of space there and it would actually fit fine. Right. Like in my mind it's like, no, I want like open space. I want to maybe like set up that, that card I have in my basement and, and, and do that and maybe put that there and like the smoker, I want some, somewhere like off to the side because it's gonna, again, again, like if you're doing a brisket, you're not looking at it more than once every like six hours.

[01:34:50] Your 

[01:34:51] Eldar: explanation makes perfect sense and I cannot fight it 

[01:34:53] Toliy: well at all, but, 

[01:34:54] Joe: well, 

[01:34:55] Toliy: no, 

[01:34:55] Joe: sure, but I'm saying, say question to you Tony. Yeah. I, I understand you all these other factors and your hand hog and at times you're good and at times things are like big you, you don't have time for because of all of the external factors.

[01:35:09] But if I see specific holding tendencies. I've been around it my whole life, and I see almost like mirror mirroring things. And I say to you, you're a hoarder, and you say you're not. Can you at least understand that like the biggest problem a hoarder has or an alcoholic or anyone is being able to accept or, or, or or just admit they are one?

[01:35:35] Because if you could 

[01:35:36] Toliy: say like, well, no, sure, but you're, but no, but sure. But you're pitching you the, the way that you're presenting. Like what, what you're saying is that you're like, you're forcing, you're, you're saying like a, uh, you're saying that like, like, I like, like, like you're saying a scenario that cannot not be true no matter, no matter what.

[01:35:53] So there's no argument that you can make against it. And it's only because it's, the argument stems on the, the argument stems of, of one individual that grew up with someone that they deem a hoarder. Right. And because of that, like I need to say that, Hey, if someone says that I'm, that I'm a hoarder, that means that what they're saying is like, like, like bond.

[01:36:16] What they're saying is like, absolutely true no matter what. And when you phrase the question, 

[01:36:20] no, 

[01:36:20] Joe: but I have so much. Yeah, 

[01:36:22] Toliy: yeah, yeah. But someone could have a lot of ex like, experience with something and still be, be wrong about it, for example. That's for sure. 

[01:36:29] Joe: I watch, I watch almost every episode on every season Forded.

[01:36:34] I've seen, I've seen every type of personality. I've, every type of Ford I've, I've watched. Thousands of hours of episodes on it. And I've known multiple people firsthand of what I, I, I've been in a firehouse. We have a certain amount of orders that, like, their fucking shit is everywhere. They collect everything.

[01:36:57] You can't even get into their fucking locker or their cubby. They put shit in our fucking parking lot. We ripped them up, bro. And like, you know, you go to the house, it's the same situation at the house. Like, you can't tell me that I'm just using my father's as like, you know, the, the like the baseline here and then putting the stamp on you.

[01:37:16] But what I'm, what I'm seeing a trend in is like anytime anyone gets confronted with what we see out there, 

[01:37:23] Toliy: no, but I'm saying what, what am I, what am I being confronted for that I'm resisting? I don't like, I don't understand. 

[01:37:30] Joe: It just goes to show that like when I brought up the things and how long, how long you, these things have been, um, uh, like a quote unquote, uh, issue with you whether or not it's impactful or not and how long it takes to correct that issue.

[01:37:47] You tend to see that that person is inadequate and unable to work through that problem dilemma because their, their obsession is, I don't have the time right now, or, I'm too busy right now. 

[01:38:01] Toliy: Well bother me right now. That, that's what I'm saying though, that you can make, you can make that argument for anything that anyone has ever struggled with in their lives.

[01:38:10] No other. 

[01:38:11] Eldar: Yeah. I don't disagree with this at all. 

[01:38:13] Toliy: Why can't you intervene here? 

[01:38:15] Eldar: What do you mean intervene? I agree with you. 

[01:38:16] Toliy: Yeah. But so, so 

[01:38:18] Joe: totally What hoarders, what are hoarders? Gimme, gimme, gimme an example of a hoarder. 

[01:38:22] Eldar: Well, totally tell him about your family. You said that. Oh, hold on, Joe. Tell him about your family.

[01:38:26] You, when we call you this, or when we say you mess you all this up, what do you say? Like, yo, you only if you knew my family. 

[01:38:31] Toliy: Well, 

[01:38:32] Eldar: yeah. My 

[01:38:32] Toliy: family is much more messy than me. 

[01:38:34] Eldar: Yeah. It's not 

[01:38:34] Toliy: comparable. 

[01:38:35] Eldar: You say like, they're even worse. 

[01:38:36] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:38:37] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? So 

[01:38:37] Toliy: it's not comparable. 

[01:38:38] Eldar: So like, you also grew up around this stuff, so it's like, it's like a, maybe it's a continuation of what you saw, what you experienced.

[01:38:45] Toliy: Well, no, no, no. For sure. You know what I'm saying? No. Look, I have no problem with Joe is saying, I'm saying in the way that he's, the, the, the way that he's, um, um, um, asking me these questions and telling me that 

[01:38:55] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:38:56] Toliy: He, he, he's, he, he's pigeonholing me, 

[01:38:59] Eldar: right? To some degree. A little 

[01:39:00] Toliy: bit. Yeah. Yeah. I like saying that.

[01:39:01] Like, Hey, I didn't have enough money to clean the snow. Why'd you go broke? Why didn't you address that earlier? Yeah. Yeah. Well, when, well, well, 'cause I had to pay for this. Well, why'd you have to pay for th Okay. I could keep going. I'm saying, do you see what I'm saying? 

[01:39:13] Eldar: I agree. That's why I 

[01:39:14] Toliy: agree with your 

[01:39:15] Joe: Totally.

[01:39:16] I agree too. But is your family hoarders? 

[01:39:18] Toliy: My family? A hundred percent. 

[01:39:21] Joe: They're Why are they hoarders? 

[01:39:24] Toliy: Why are they hoarders? They're frying bigger 

[01:39:26] Joe: fish. 

[01:39:26] Toliy: Well, because, well, because my grandma In your eyes. Uh, okay. Well, for, for example, starting with my grandma, my grandma's extremely sentimental with items, right?

[01:39:37] Relics. Relics, okay. Yes. Right. There's all kinds of stuff that I don't know belong to. My grandfather belongs to her, um, things that was brought over from Ukraine that they still keep. Right. Okay. And that still holds space. Right. And then there's also, like, for example, clothing that's either too old or ripped or this or that.

[01:39:57] Right. And like, to me, like I have no problem throwing it away. Like I'll, like anything that's like slight hole or this, like if I see it, I'm down to throw it away. No problem. For example, right? Where like my mom has to, like, my mom has to constantly throw shit away behind my grandma's back. Like this, this, yeah.

[01:40:13] This is a thing, right? 

[01:40:15] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:40:15] Toliy: Um, and, and, and, and then there's other people in my, like my dad is very, very much like this, where like he, he ha he has this famous story where he, you know, like my grandpa got like the, uh, 

[01:40:26] Eldar: deer 

[01:40:26] Toliy: antlers. Some, yeah, some, some gave him like deer antlers and like the, uh, subway, you know, like in like the, the, uh, train.

[01:40:32] And then they took it. And then my, like, the line was always like, oh, like you have to first take it and then think about it, uh, later, you know, like, 

[01:40:39] Eldar: why did you take these, this deer 

[01:40:41] Toliy: an he goes, yeah. And people are like, yo, what the fuck? Like, why, why did you take this shit? But you gotta like, take it. You gotta take them first and then think about it later.

[01:40:48] So you gotta, like, that, that, that was like the motto, right? Like, like, like if someone's giving you something, you take it and then, and then you think about whether you need it, need it later or not. 

[01:40:55] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:40:55] Toliy: Right. My dad has a hard time throwing away anything he has. Clothing that it's like four sizes too big.

[01:41:01] He has clothing from like 30 years ago that he doesn't wear. Uh, and he will not throw it away. And like we, we like, okay, like, like two, two, like two or three years ago, I, I bought him a pair of sunglasses and I said to the, uh, condition for the sunglasses, it's to throw away the other ones. If you're not the one to throw 'em away, I'm not willing to give you them.

[01:41:21] Eldar: I remember this. 

[01:41:21] Toliy: Yeah, because they're broken. Yeah. Like they're broken. They're, they're chip, like the GLA could get into like your shit, you know, like 

[01:41:27] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:41:27] Toliy: Yeah. Like they're, like, they, they have like, um, they, they, they all have a clear collective like, uh, like, like problem that actually inhibits the way that they live.

[01:41:38] Yeah. You know? Okay. Like when that actually happens. 

[01:41:40] Joe: But, but does it bother you? But does it affect you? 

[01:41:44] Toliy: It, it, it, it affects me more psychologically than physically. 

[01:41:48] Joe: Okay. But does, does it, does it bother you on how they do things? 

[01:41:51] Toliy: Oh, oh, oh, oh. How they do things? 

[01:41:54] Joe: Yeah. Like is it bothering them? 

[01:41:57] Toliy: It, well, um, is it bothering them?

[01:41:59] Um, 

[01:42:00] Joe: yeah. Does it bother? Does it bother them? So the, the way that, the way I'm comparing is that the things that, that are being brought up about you Yeah. Doesn't bother you. And it doesn't really affect your life. No, 

[01:42:10] Toliy: no. But it does, Joe 

[01:42:11] Joe: don't make up a big 

[01:42:11] Toliy: deal. It does Joe. No, no, no. It, these things do affect me.

[01:42:15] And I'm not saying that they're not good things to do. I'm saying, I'm not saying that. 

[01:42:20] Joe: Okay. But, but, but you're saying it doesn't, it, it's like, it's not really an issue. I'm not addressing it. And I'm saying there's, I'm saying there more time. You're saying, you're saying it's not a horse, you're saying it's, I'm not a hoarder.

[01:42:34] These aren't hoarding tendencies, but I'm trying to compare how you call your family hoarders. And these are just things that like they live with and doesn't affect them or they fail to change. But you look at them as hoarders. But like, there's different level. There's like obviously one guy, one person could be, uh, uh, more of a hoarder than another person.

[01:42:55] But we're talking about the same thing here. So why are they hoarders and you're not 

[01:43:00] Toliy: Well, well, or no, I mean, like to like, I mean they're, yeah, they, I mean they may not be hoarders, I guess to, to themselves obviously, but yeah, I feel like, 

[01:43:07] Joe: but in your eyes. But in your eyes. They're 

[01:43:10] Toliy: in my eyes, yes. For, for those reasons.

[01:43:12] 'cause there's a clear difference, Joel. 

[01:43:13] Eldar: Okay. Like their next level, you know what I'm saying? So to him it's 

[01:43:16] Joe: easier to spot 

[01:43:17] Eldar: obviously. 

[01:43:18] Joe: That's why I said there's, there's like, there's there's different spectrums of it. Yeah. Different. So, 

[01:43:23] Toliy: so then is every single person, is every single person some level of hoarder or no?

[01:43:28] Eldar: I'll probably say, yeah. I'll, 

[01:43:29] Joe: I, I would probably say yes. Okay. That. Alright. 

[01:43:32] Eldar: So we're all good, don't you 

[01:43:33] Toliy: with us? 

[01:43:34] Eldar: Alright. So, so, so we're fine here. 

[01:43:36] Toliy: Alright. So we're all hoarders. So then, yeah. 

[01:43:40] Joe: Well that's the thing. Like you need, if you wanna be, if you want that camp to like, feel like 

[01:43:45] Toliy: warm, 

[01:43:45] Joe: you don't belong to like warm.

[01:43:46] Yeah. You don't feel like, uh, you belong. Well, 

[01:43:48] Toliy: no, I'm asking you. No, I was asking you a serious question. Is everybody then some form of hoarder or no? You could say no. 

[01:43:56] Joe: Well, well, the, the way I would say this is like if everyone's a hoarder, the, like, the 90, 90% of the people that hoard are able to process the hoard and understand the problem.

[01:44:10] And then, and then like, it doesn't, it doesn't build, it doesn't become functionally an issue doesn't become in the way or doesn't, doesn't cause any rift or, or tension or anything. Because, because when something comes, you process it and you Yeah, 

[01:44:28] Toliy: but yeah, but who, who lives, like, who lives a life that doesn't have any rift or tension in any of the thing, like any of these things.

[01:44:35] Most people Who, who do you know? 

[01:44:36] Joe: Most people. 

[01:44:36] Toliy: People who, who do you know? 

[01:44:39] Joe: Uh, El Mike and myself. 

[01:44:41] Toliy: El Mike. You guys don't, don't, don't have we we go with the hoarding part. What? The hoarding thing? 

[01:44:46] Mike: No 

[01:44:47] Toliy: tensions. No, no. I'm saying that like in, in the, in the things that you have issues with, you don't have things that cost you rifts or tensions.

[01:44:54] You guys were saying that you guys are all good. 

[01:44:55] Mike: No, Joe said we're good. I'll ride 

[01:44:56] Toliy: with Jones. No, no. I'm asking you. 

[01:44:58] Mike: Uh, like gimme some examples. 

[01:45:00] Eldar: I think I have some stuff that causes me stress. Yeah. 

[01:45:02] Toliy: Okay. So you have things that cause you rifs and tension? 

[01:45:05] Joe: No, no. That's not the definition of hoarding.

[01:45:08] Totally. The definition of hoarding is not seeing those behavioral changes that like the collection of things, the unable to process throw out, uh, and, and the, the consumption of things of where things are building and those, those are hoarding tendencies. And the fact that you see that in your family, but you can't turn around and say like, oh yeah, I have somewhat of a 

[01:45:32] Eldar: I'm gonna tell you one, I'm gonna tell you one.

[01:45:33] I'm gonna tell you one story. Okay, 

[01:45:37] Joe: sure. 

[01:45:37] Eldar: Uh, where I first like finally kind like it clicked to me, you know what I mean? That there might be an issue. Okay. So I was standing at the light. Okay, come on. I was standing at this light. 

[01:45:51] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:45:52] Eldar: Okay. 

[01:45:53] Mike: Yeah. This issue might not have to do with hoarding. You having 

[01:45:58] Eldar: No, bro, I think this connected you 

[01:46:00] Mike: eye.

[01:46:00] Eldar: Tell me, tell me if I'm wrong, Joe. Okay. You have to pay attention to this 

[01:46:03] Mike: Joe. Pay attention. 

[01:46:05] Eldar: I was standing at this red light. 

[01:46:07] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:46:07] Eldar: Okay. 

[01:46:08] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:46:09] Eldar: And then there was a car, a white Tesla, zooms through the light, through the red light. Okay. And makes the left turn. Okay. Okay. Yes. On red light. 

[01:46:19] Mike: Okay. 

[01:46:20] Eldar: And I'm looking, I'm like, wait a second.

[01:46:21] I think I know this guy. 

[01:46:22] Mike: Mm. 

[01:46:23] Eldar: And I did. Because you did. Yeah. He was following me. He was behind me. And 

[01:46:26] Mike: he, is he in this room by any chance? 

[01:46:28] Eldar: He's, he made a left on red. 

[01:46:31] Mike: Okay. 

[01:46:31] Eldar: Okay. And I think that was the first telltale sign that this person is a hoarder. You know how I figured this out? No, I actually have no idea.

[01:46:40] He was able to not see the light.

[01:46:45] Mike: Okay. I get it. 

[01:46:47] Eldar: And if you can't connect the dots, then I can't connect them for you. 

[01:46:50] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:46:51] Eldar: I think hoarders have the ability not to see those things. Yeah. They're invisible to them. 

[01:46:57] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:46:58] Eldar: That's it. Well, yeah. 

[01:46:59] Toliy: No, no, but what, what am I saying? That's like what? Like no, no, I'm not, not this, not like, I'm not agreeing with any of these things.

[01:47:06] What 

[01:47:08] Harris: the fuck? 

[01:47:10] Mike: Not Why 

[01:47:10] are 

[01:47:10] Mike: you laughing, Joel? You're not disagreeing with any of the things. Yeah, I'm, 

[01:47:13] Toliy: no, I'm saying that like, I don't view, like, I'm not saying that none of these things that are being brought up are not problems. Like I'm agreeing that they're problems. Yeah. I'm just saying that like in, in the form of questioning that Joe, we all have them.

[01:47:24] I'm saying that in the form of questioning that, that Joe is doing. 

[01:47:27] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:47:28] Toliy: If you apply that to any problem that anyone has, like, like. It to, to, to, to me it's almost pointless, right? Mm-hmm. Because, like, no, 

[01:47:37] Mike: no. I think 

[01:47:37] Toliy: the, the problem 

[01:47:38] Mike: that 

[01:47:38] Toliy: Joe, 

[01:47:39] Mike: Joe Joe's having, 

[01:47:39] Toliy: yeah. Yeah. 

[01:47:40] Mike: It's no, the only time it's, I mean, I don't know if it's a problem or not a problem.

[01:47:44] The only problem that I think that Joe is having 

[01:47:46] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:47:46] Mike: Is the fact that like we all have, okay, I have problems, 

[01:47:50] Toliy: okay. 

[01:47:51] Mike: That I'm not working on. 

[01:47:52] Toliy: Why not? 

[01:47:53] Mike: Uh, but I'm not in denial that I have those problems. 

[01:47:56] Toliy: No, I'm not, I'm not in denial that the 

[01:47:57] Mike: mail No, I, that's 

[01:47:58] Toliy: no's a problem. 

[01:47:59] Mike: No, but I think that's what Joe was saying that 

[01:48:01] Toliy: you No, but I'm saying that I'm not in denial that the, like, stacking of mail or not being on top of things is not a problem.

[01:48:06] You just don't wanna label it as hoarding. I like, I, I, I just don't like understand how that could be labeled as hoarding. Yeah. 

[01:48:12] Mike: Okay. That's 

[01:48:13] Toliy: fine. TTT because Joe, Joe, do, do hoarders usually have this problem? No. Yeah. You see like, it's, it's pigeonholing. Hey, do hoarders, I'm just asking Do, do hoarders also eat vanilla ice cream?

[01:48:26] I'm just asking. Do, yeah. Yeah. I'm just asking. Yeah. Do, do hoarders also tend to eat ice cream at times? Yeah. 

[01:48:32] Eldar: I would 

[01:48:32] Joe: say 

[01:48:33] Eldar: so. 

[01:48:33] Joe: You 

[01:48:33] Eldar: know, 

[01:48:34] Joe: but do, but, but do people take that long to like, to like understand the, the correction that needs to be made and refuse to do it for Well, 

[01:48:46] Toliy: have you not been struggling for things your whole life that you still haven't figured out?

[01:48:50] Joe: I mean, um. Like personal things? Like, like what do you mean? Like the way I act? 

[01:48:56] Toliy: Well, yeah. With your, yeah, like who you are, how you act, what, like what works for you? Well, what doesn't work well. Yeah. 

[01:49:03] Joe: What 

[01:49:03] Toliy: things you don't like about 

[01:49:03] Joe: yourself, you know that, but you do know that like hoardings, that like.

[01:49:07] Doesn't mean you're a bad person. It could mean that like Yeah, you're 

[01:49:10] Toliy: not 

[01:49:10] Joe: a 

[01:49:10] Toliy: bad 

[01:49:10] Joe: person. Oh, 

[01:49:11] Toliy: no, no, no. I know that, but I'm, but I'm saying that Joe, 

[01:49:14] Joe: like why haven't you, why do you have such a problem? Like, but being messy and unorganized and things build up, that's hoarding. 

[01:49:21] Toliy: Okay. Okay, then Okay, then problem.

[01:49:23] I'm taking the title's. Taking the title, Joe. No, I'm, I'm just not understanding why, why you feel the need to label things in a particular way. Like, because like, like you refuse to 

[01:49:35] Joe: accept the, like the, 

[01:49:36] Toliy: if you can't, if you, if you can't track it, you can't. What if I said like, like, like, like 

[01:49:42] Eldar: if you can't measure it, you can't track it.

[01:49:44] Toliy: No, no. I know you're 

[01:49:45] Eldar: going hun. 

[01:49:46] Toliy: No saying that. Like if like, if, if someone's, if, if someone doesn't have something in their life figured out, for example, right? Yeah. Does that make them a complete moron? For example? 

[01:49:55] Eldar: So you are on your jour a hoarder journey. That's okay. And it's not permanent. 

[01:50:00] Toliy: No, no, no.

[01:50:00] Right 

[01:50:00] Eldar: now hoarding is serving a purpose. Yeah. Because you're frying bigger fish. I 

[01:50:04] Toliy: understand why. 

[01:50:05] Eldar: That's guys, guys, I have sick final thoughts.

[01:50:14] Toliy: I like if, if, if you need me to say that like 

[01:50:17] Eldar: Yeah, I don't need, I don't need you to anything. 

[01:50:20] Toliy: No, but Joe wants, Joe wants me to take the title, correct? Like in in, in the way that he 

[01:50:24] Eldar: speak? No, I think Joe was trying to raise awareness. Yeah. That like, hey, like if his father's thing was an acute thing, that's kind of got like.

[01:50:31] Yeah. You know, got abandoned pretty much. And now he's neglected. Yeah. This problem. Right. He probably sees that like this is early stage. We're like, yo, you might have those tendencies. That's it. You know what I'm saying? 

[01:50:42] Joe: Yeah, bro. I've been try, I've been trying to assist my father in cleaning up the basement my whole entire life.

[01:50:49] Yeah. And I've yet to make a dent. 

[01:50:52] Toliy: Yeah. But 

[01:50:53] Joe: why have you been trying 

[01:50:54] Toliy: to, why have you been trying to help him do, do this? '

[01:50:56] Joe: cause he's unable to do it, bro. He's, but is he asking you for help to do it? Able to? No, he doesn't, he doesn't see as a problem. But when Mike and El sees your house and sees hoarding tendencies and go, why can't, why is this like this?

[01:51:10] Um, and they try to help and you go like, yo, don't touch this. Get outta here. I don't need help. I don't have a problem. 

[01:51:15] Eldar: This is why. Yes. 

[01:51:17] Joe: That hoarding, 

[01:51:18] Eldar: this is why I think that, that this intervention is an early stage intervention and not a late stage intervention. No, 

[01:51:23] Toliy: but what, what, how am I agree? No, 

[01:51:25] Eldar: no, no, no, no, no.

[01:51:26] And the reason why I'm saying it's early. Totally. And this is credit to you, is because you raising your hand asking for help. 

[01:51:32] Toliy: No, but whenever 

[01:51:33] Eldar: you and 

[01:51:33] Toliy: Raymond 

[01:51:33] Eldar: wasn't 

[01:51:34] Toliy: No, but whenever you No, but whenever you bring something up, I'm not in denial that like, like this is what's going on or that like, I need to work on it.

[01:51:42] Eldar: Yeah. No. Yeah. And that's good. 

[01:51:44] Toliy: Yeah, I know. But. 

[01:51:46] Eldar: It doesn't mean that you can't be, you can't be a hoarder for now. 

[01:51:49] Toliy: Oh, okay. All right. 

[01:51:50] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? 

[01:51:51] Toliy: Yeah. Like, I, I don't, I don't understand why, 

[01:51:52] Eldar: just like you had anxiety before. Yeah. Right. And hopefully you worked on it and now you don't have as much as anxiety.

[01:51:57] Like, like I don't, sooner or later I'm not gonna associate you with an anxiety type of person that you used to be. I, I, I. Which is think that like, like we're we forever changing? 

[01:52:05] Toliy: Yeah. I, I, I just don't, don't, don't understand why we need to call things that are not like that thing. 

[01:52:11] Eldar: But you like calling things for what they are, don't you?

[01:52:13] Toliy: Oh. Oh, I love to. Yeah. But, but why do we have to call them? I'm a orderer. 

[01:52:17] Eldar: Well, that's, I'm saying. Well, because like, I, I'm not gonna, like, I'm not gonna like, you know, you bought some shoes and I'm gonna, I'm not gonna call those slippers if you bought shoes, you know what I'm saying? Like, look, if you, I like calling things for what they are.

[01:52:27] Toliy: Look, if you feel that this, if you feel er, if you feel that this is who I am, 

[01:52:32] Eldar: actually I've been calling you a hoarder. Totally. 

[01:52:33] Toliy: Then no problem. 

[01:52:34] Eldar: No, but I've been calling 

[01:52:35] Toliy: you a hoarder. Alright, then. No problem. You know what I'm saying? In your eyes, I could be a hoarder. 

[01:52:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:52:38] Toliy: Just not 

[01:52:38] Eldar: in Joes. Just not in No, 

[01:52:40] Toliy: no, no.

[01:52:41] Joe's eyes too. I have no problem if, if he needs me, just, just a say that's all he is looking for. No problem. 

[01:52:47] Joe: No, that's not what I'm looking for. Totally. I don't care if you collect, Joe has 

[01:52:51] Eldar: daggers in his eyes. What? Joe has 

[01:52:53] Toliy: daggers in his eyes. 

[01:52:54] Joe: I don't, I don't care if your whole house shows up a cardboard, it's not gonna affect me or what I'm trying to, I'm trying to push attention, awareness to you that like your inability to admit or your inability to see.

[01:53:07] The same issues. I see. 

[01:53:09] Toliy: No, but what am I not willing to admit, elder? What am I not willing to admit? I just think 

[01:53:13] Eldar: the only thing you not willing to admit is the title. That's it. 

[01:53:15] Toliy: I am, I'm admitting that these things are all not good. Yeah. I said that from the beginning and I've never resisted it. 

[01:53:21] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:53:22] Toliy: What is the problem we're having here?

[01:53:23] Eldar: How about this? How about you 

[01:53:24] Joe: say like this, because you're saying, you're saying it's not ahor, it's not a hoard, it's not hoarder, not, you're not being a hoarder. That's what you're saying. 

[01:53:31] Eldar: Well, yeah, 

[01:53:32] Toliy: because I don't think that 

[01:53:32] Eldar: maybe you were a viking back in the day. Well, that's the problem. And you went on a hoarding.

[01:53:35] Well, 

[01:53:35] Toliy: but why is that the problem? Why hoard? Why 

[01:53:37] Eldar: hoarder? Yeah. 

[01:53:39] Joe: Alright. The problem is if I think if I, if you think I have a drinking problem, which like, I drink, uh, 10 drinks, 10 uh, beers a day. Okay. And, uh, yeah, but like, it's not that big of a deal. I know people have they much worse drug issues or whether or not, whether you admit it or not.

[01:53:57] Like if, if you have a drinking problem, you're an alcoholic. It's like the problem with the people that are in denial about it. They say, I'm not, I'm not, that's not me. I'm not, I'm not an alcoholic. I'm not an alcoholic. But if you do drink that many drinks, at the end of the day, you're an alcoholic. 

[01:54:14] Toliy: Okay.

[01:54:14] So can't control just an example. What's one problem you have? 

[01:54:20] Joe: What's one problem I have? 

[01:54:21] Toliy: Yeah. Uh, 

[01:54:22] Joe: I get frustrated when my son, um, does the wrong thing and my first reaction is to yell and, and, um, uh, fuse like calmly short fuse. I have a short fuse when I get frustrated. 

[01:54:36] Toliy: Okay. So why aren't you attending anger management?

[01:54:40] Eldar: He is, he's talking to me about, 

[01:54:42] Toliy: no, why aren't you? I'm, why are you like, like, do I have to classify you as an angry person or are you an angry person? 

[01:54:49] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:54:49] Joe: No, but, but I'm admitting to it. 

[01:54:52] Toliy: I even 

[01:54:52] Joe: told my wife's, 

[01:54:53] Eldar: but totally. 

[01:54:53] Toliy: That's, we do. No, but he's saying no, he's not an angry person. 

[01:54:56] Eldar: She's say that. 

[01:54:58] Joe: No, I 

[01:54:58] Toliy: say 

[01:55:00] Eldar: she's admitting to it.

[01:55:00] Joe: He said, I admitted to it. 

[01:55:02] Toliy: Are you in general an angry person? 

[01:55:05] Joe: I admitted to the fact, well, nobody's looking. I have a problem. And I, and I, 

[01:55:09] Toliy: no, but Joe, are you, are you an angry person overall? Are you an angry person 

[01:55:16] Joe: overall? I would say no. 

[01:55:17] Toliy: Okay. So that's what I'm saying here. Is it, uh, that that's what I'm saying.

[01:55:22] You're, you're trying to, but do you have an anger problem? Ask him that. Well, no, I'm saying Well, no, no, no. You have to ask him that. Why? Well think about it. Okay. Do you have an anger problem? 

[01:55:33] Joe: No. 

[01:55:33] Toliy: Okay. But he says 

[01:55:34] Eldar: yes, but the times sometimes he does. 

[01:55:36] Toliy: Okay. So he does have an anger problem, right? Well, there you go.

[01:55:39] But he's saying no. But overall, oh yeah. Yeah. 

[01:55:42] Joe: I guess like, 

[01:55:43] Toliy: okay. So do you, do you see what I'm saying, Joe? Is that just because like, you're trying, you're, you're, you're, you're saying this to me that I, that I'm an angry per, like, you're, you're doing the opposite, but just back to me. I don't think, uh, like could you be angry at certain things or be like, I, I view, I view you more as like you could get frustrated with things, but I don't view Joe as an, an angry person, for example.

[01:56:04] No, 

[01:56:05] Eldar: no, no. That's, that's hold on right there. You don't view Joe as an angry person, but you just don't know that side of Joe. 

[01:56:11] Toliy: Correct. Yes. 

[01:56:11] Eldar: Like Mike said, Mike, no, I recently, Mike don't view as Joe Mike recently discovered that, yo, I'm actually angry on the inside. You know what I'm saying? However, you may be witnessed a lot of anger from Mike.

[01:56:20] I haven't witnessed as much. I just witnessed it. Kind of like secondhand. 

[01:56:24] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:56:24] Eldar: But I don't wanna associate Mike with this angry person all the time. 

[01:56:27] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:56:28] Eldar: He does it like closet anger, maybe Joe is a closet angry person as well. Mm-hmm. He hides it well. 

[01:56:34] Toliy: Well, well, well, okay, sure. I'm saying that that 

[01:56:35] Eldar: doesn't mean that he's not, but I think 

[01:56:37] Toliy: that, well, I'm saying that like I could definitely, I, I, I could definitely like, um, clean my house better and have better tendencies and address certain things that, that, that, that's my only thing is that like, I agree that these things are good things to address and I agree that they, they, they, they serve a level of importance.

[01:56:53] And I also agree that if not checked, they could lead to like Yeah. Worse scenarios. 

[01:56:59] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:56:59] Toliy: But I don't think that it means that, that I'm a hoarder, for example. I don't think so. And that, and, and that's not because I feel like I'm in denial or I'm not. Like I, I, I wanna stand on my, my horse or something. And like, I like, I don't know, I don't feel like I have an issue admitting like wrong, for example.

[01:57:16] Um, there's definitely. Like in, in the heat of certain moments, but I feel 

[01:57:20] Eldar: like I, no, no, no. That's exactly I'm 

[01:57:21] Toliy: willing 

[01:57:22] Eldar: to it, but that's what it is. It's, it's always like that. Totally. It's always like, I'm not, I I'm not denying it. Right. But then like you accept it and then you're finally willing to do something about it because you've accepted it.

[01:57:31] No, but, and that's usually the transition about 

[01:57:33] Toliy: raising awareness on any issue, saying No, but I, I feel like in this con conversation, I don't feel like I'm denying that, saying that like, Hey, this is a problem. This is not a problem. Right. But I'm saying that like. Just because like, it's a problem with, that does not mean that I'm a hoarder because that's a very broad, like, it's, it, it's, it, it's like a very, um, generic and like broad white, white topic sending us saying that like, Joe's an angry person.

[01:57:57] Yeah. He's not angry everywhere. He might be angry in particular places. Yeah. But if he, but if we, 

[01:58:02] Eldar: but he himself acknowledges that it does affect a good part of his life, 

[01:58:06] Toliy: but it does not mean that he, well, well, if, if, if he's angry most of the time, then yes, then I would consider him an angry person. No, you 

[01:58:12] Eldar: wouldn't, because you would never know it.

[01:58:15] Toliy: But he just said he's not an angry person. You're saying that he is. 

[01:58:18] Eldar: No, potentially he is. I don't know that side of him. You know what I'm saying? Okay. Just because I don't know that side of him Yes. Does not mean that he's not it. 

[01:58:24] Toliy: Mm-hmm. Okay. But he, he's saying he is, he, uh, he's not, even though he, you, you could have some examples of where he is, for example, right?

[01:58:32] Eldar: Y yeah. Maybe some small one, but it does not, but that doesn't give me enough to associate him as an angry person. 

[01:58:36] Toliy: So why does it give him enough to call me a hoarder? That's what I'm asking. 

[01:58:39] Eldar: Because of the examples that we brought up. 

[01:58:41] Toliy: I know, but why can't we use these examples of Joe being angry with this or with that?

[01:58:44] Why can't we just call 

[01:58:45] Eldar: him an angry wreck? We can't, if we start, if we start to raise more awareness, like Mike started raising awareness about certain anger issues that he has. Yes. If he raises long enough awareness, I'm gonna see Mike as that's the pres presenting issue at this moment. That Mike is actually angry on the inside.

[01:58:59] It, there's nothing wrong with that. And that's an actual fact because No, the acknowledgement came from the individual who's experiencing it. 

[01:59:06] Toliy: Well, no, sure. 

[01:59:07] Eldar: I I can't speak for Mike, I can't speak for Joe. I can't speak for you. But ultimately you have to kind of say like, yeah, something's wrong here. 

[01:59:13] Toliy: Well, no, but I'm not disagreeing that something is not wrong and these things are not important to address.

[01:59:17] I'm, I'm like, I just like, in my opinion and my understanding of what, like if you called me, if you said, Hey, am I a messy person? I have no problem taking, taking that title. I am overall messy. 

[01:59:28] Eldar: Yeah, 

[01:59:29] Toliy: I am. 

[01:59:30] Eldar: Yeah, 

[01:59:30] Toliy: I am. Right. Um, I definitely feel at times overwhelmed and too, too, too much to handle and, and the way I grew up all.

[01:59:37] So again, it's that, that part is like slow, slowly changing and I'm way cleaner than like, you know, 

[01:59:44] Eldar: your parents 

[01:59:45] Toliy: Yeah. For yeah. For example, like their house in my, in my house is not a comparable place. 

[01:59:50] Eldar: I know 

[01:59:50] Toliy: it's not comparable. Yeah. Right. 

[01:59:52] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:59:52] Toliy: Um, right. Um, if you were a 10 x water, how much is your sister?

[01:59:58] A hundred x or, oh gosh. Wow. 

[02:00:01] Joe: Joey, can I, can I just like say something? 

[02:00:04] Toliy: Yeah. 

[02:00:04] Joe: Um, the thing with my son is like, my son's two and a half, right. And, um, I never raised a kid before. Um, before, before Benny, I wouldn't, I wouldn't face these like frustrating, uh, stressful scenario. So like, this is, this is very new to me.

[02:00:25] This just started and I'm starting to realize as a new dad. I'm starting to realize like the things that are not gonna be good for, like, my reactions I'm seeing aren't good for Benny and Alana pointed it out when she saw it, and I'm, I'm, I'm acknowledging the fact that like, um, I need to shift my, uh, my reactions and my ways.

[02:00:49] So I don't do that. So I'm like actively just adjusting certain ways, uh, about going about it. But this just started, right? Like 

[02:00:57] Toliy: Yeah. But how would you 

[02:00:58] Joe: feel? New things? 

[02:00:59] Toliy: I, I agree with you potentially here, Joe. Right? But how would you feel is like if, uh, if I said, Hey, that's usually what an angry person would say.

[02:01:07] Joe: Well, if you, if you say like, I've known you for a certain amount of time and you're angry on other things, I could say like, alright, you, then you got a, a better point. But if, if you can't pin me for other examples, I'm just saying I've only noticed it with my own son, not with anything else in my 

[02:01:24] life.

[02:01:24] Eldar: But you see, so, so, so she, he clearly separated the identity Right. Of Dad Joe as being the angry side. You've never met Dad Joe? 

[02:01:32] Toliy: No. 

[02:01:32] Eldar: You've never seen him around his son. You've never watched him, him. No. 

[02:01:35] Toliy: And I've never seen it. I've never even seen Joe angry. 

[02:01:37] Eldar: Yeah. You see. 

[02:01:41] Toliy: But the only time I saw Joe, Joe angry is, is when he was telling the story about the guy that wouldn't deliver his slab of concrete.

[02:01:48] Eldar: Yeah. You know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[02:01:50] Toliy: That's it. 

[02:01:50] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:01:51] Toliy: I definitely don't have that association at all. 

[02:01:53] Eldar: There you go. Doesn't mean that it doesn't exist for sure. There you go. Exactly. And obviously it's not like Benny birthed it, right? 

[02:02:02] Joe: No. 

[02:02:04] Eldar: It came from somewhere else. Yeah. 

[02:02:05] Toliy: Yeah. 

[02:02:06] Mike: The anger 

[02:02:07] Eldar: side 

[02:02:07] Mike: effect of something else.

[02:02:08] Yes. It's 

[02:02:08] Eldar: an don't even 

[02:02:09] Mike: be angry, it's just a 

[02:02:10] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:02:12] Toliy: I think all in all, um, I am, I'm, I'm in full of agree. So anything that you guys brought, brought up, um, even the flexibility of like me being like not caring where the gr where the smoker goes or like just being like a yes person there. Um, to me, my mind operates oftentimes in like, um, like explanations, right?

[02:02:33] So for example, which, which he didn't have to do obviously, but if he said, Hey, we're gonna be here on Saturday, we're gonna be working in this area. You're you, you're gonna be potentially clean cleaning le leaves in this area area. Let's move the s smoke s smoker here. There is no, there is no argument that I could possibly make about why it's not a good idea to move it anywhere else.

[02:02:55] And I know that for a fact. That's how I'd react to it. Right. 

[02:02:58] Joe: You know why it didn't go that way? Because ELs approach. Because he already knew your reaction. 

[02:03:05] Toliy: Well now you're 

[02:03:05] Eldar: talking about me having fun and that's why you were wrong about me being frustrated. Listen, you, you, you admitted to a lot of things.

[02:03:12] Totally. Yeah. I only want you to, to evaluate one more thing and tell me if you admit to this one. 

[02:03:16] Toliy: I did go on, I did make a left on the red light. 

[02:03:19] Eldar: Okay. No, but now the next one. Yeah. Do you or do you not have the, have the ability to make objects and things invisible? 

[02:03:28] Toliy: Invisible, like physically? 

[02:03:29] Eldar: Yeah, but they don't exist 

[02:03:34] Toliy: for me or for others.

[02:03:35] Eldar: For you. Sure. I think we all have that ability. Again, he don't, he don't wanna 

[02:03:40] Toliy: be there 

[02:03:40] Eldar: alone. He doesn't wanna be alone. 

[02:03:41] Toliy: No. Because we're there with you. No, no. Because the way that you're asking the question, it, it's, it's with a particular purpose to do, to, to do something to 

[02:03:48] Eldar: pigeonhole you. Yes. To 

[02:03:49] Toliy: make a pigeonhole somebody.

[02:03:50] Eldar: Yes. 

[02:03:50] Toliy: Right. 

[02:03:50] Eldar: But you already agreed that you are a hoarder, so it's okay. 

[02:03:52] Toliy: Yeah, no problem. 

[02:03:53] Eldar: You know, so, no, I think totally does have that ability. That's, that's very good. 

[02:03:59] Toliy: Yeah. 

[02:03:59] Eldar: Selective seeing, hearing. I think we have, 

[02:04:01] Toliy: again, do we not all have selective seeing and hearing? 

[02:04:04] Eldar: Totally. We do. 

[02:04:05] Toliy: I know. So 

[02:04:05] Eldar: what's like, like I just don't wanna, like, I don't wanna skate on fucking cardboard boxes every time I visit your basement.

[02:04:12] You know what I'm saying? Okay. 

[02:04:15] Joe: Probably. 

[02:04:16] Eldar: Okay. 

[02:04:17] Joe: I might be an angry person, but I'm not a hoarder. You might be a, not an angry person, but you're a hoarder. That's the difference. 

[02:04:24] Eldar: Well, we didn't get to totally. He is angry yet. He's the meanest guy in the group, by the way, according to Gina Warren. Alright guys, I think we fucking beat the fuck out of hoarding.

[02:04:34] Uh, I'm looking forward to seeing what that guy, when that guy hears this episode, what he thinks. Did we do a good job or not? I think we did. So what are some of our final thoughts? Joe, do you have any more things? Do you have final thoughts for us or, yeah, 

[02:04:47] Joe: yeah. I'll, I'll say, so. I'll say something that's, that's famously derived from wanting to, um, give up on, on something.

[02:04:56] Hoarding is dead. Hoarding doesn't exist. 

[02:05:00] Eldar: Listen, if you listen to our podcast like Joe does, you would know where he is coming from. I like it. Mike, I don't have anything to say. Fuck. You didn't hoard any thoughts? I can't, I can't. I'm not even sure what to make you motherfucker. All right. Totally. 

[02:05:13] Toliy: Because I got, I got, I was gonna say one, one thing.

[02:05:15] As Dustin Poer said, if my grandpa, if, if, if, if my grandma had balls, she'd be called my grandpa. 

[02:05:21] Eldar: Alright, fine. Thank you. 

[02:05:24] Toliy: Don't like that. Y'all like that one? 

[02:05:25] Eldar: Mm-hmm. He was squabbling with you, that's why. 

[02:05:29] Toliy: Yeah. 

[02:05:29] Eldar: Alright. My final thoughts is this, and I think I found the cure to hoarding to, for hoarders. I'm not sure if everyone is able, is gonna be able to exercise this, or at least I'm gonna rephrase this.

[02:05:40] I might FI might have found a solution or cure to the early stage hoarders, like totally. 

[02:05:49] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[02:05:50] Eldar: Okay. And it's this. Perfect. Why you laughing? I, I, yeah. I, I think Joe will find this profound. I think that he missed the, he missed the train with his dad on this. 

[02:06:02] Mm-hmm. 

[02:06:03] Eldar: And he probably would wish if I gave him this advice when he was 16, 17 years old, because that's when his dad was probably 35 years old or whatever, you know, like Totally.

[02:06:10] He is right now. And that was, he was probably in his early stages, but he didn't, I think that hoarders, not only that, they're magicians. They actually are artists. They're artists, right. 

[02:06:24] Joe: Yeah. 

[02:06:25] Eldar: And because of toy's, testimony, and because of all the other things that I've heard about hoarders, right. About them not, not maybe seeing or valuing those things in the moment.

[02:06:35] Mm-hmm. That's why their head is somewhere else. They're too busy solving bigger problems. 

[02:06:38] Mike: Yeah. 

[02:06:40] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? The solution is simple. The people around them have to help them clean everything up because they're not at the moment resisting. So we have to extend our services to Toley to make sure that we're constantly cleaning for him.

[02:06:55] Okay. Nonstop, without any issue, because that's what he wants us to do because he's busy doing something greater. And when that paint, that picture is finally painted. 

[02:07:04] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[02:07:04] Eldar: I think we all gonna be rejoicing. I, and this is hang on the 

[02:07:09] Toliy: Messiah, 

[02:07:10] Eldar: and this is this. Yes. And this is only gonna work for the people who are in the stages of totally, who's still raising his hand and saying, I need help with this stuff.

[02:07:17] Right now, he's resisting a little bit. He doesn't understand certain stuff. If we, if this, if like, if we neglect this, it's gonna be completely over from him. He is gonna become a full blown hoarder full life. Yep. Yeah. 

[02:07:30] Joe: Now, Aldo, are you suggesting that you do it, um, against his control or will? 

[02:07:35] Eldar: No, no. He's go in there and, no, the thing is right now, he's setting up a trap right Inside his hoarding tendencies is the hoarder that lives inside of him.

[02:07:42] He hates what I'm saying. But of course, his reason and his logical self is still saying that I need help. And he is raising his hand. And I always do so right now. So right now we can imprison him to those words, but, but we have to force it upon him afterwards. 

[02:07:59] Joe: Yeah. And now if you're, if you're faced with resistance, which I know you will, if you're faced with, um, cleaning it up, and then the next month you're doing the same thing over and over again, 

[02:08:13] Eldar: I'm willing, I'm willing to walk away from a real hoarder at any given point and forever and forever not see him ever again.

[02:08:22] If that's the case. 

[02:08:24] Joe: Have to walk away from him, but at least 

[02:08:25] Eldar: No, I mean, like, you just like, I'll leave him alone. I, yeah, I'll no, like, I'll leave him alone forever. Yeah, for sure. Hundred percent. 

[02:08:32] Joe: Because I, because I, because because I percent you told, you told me I, I shoulda gave this advice to Joe and maybe that would've become Ahor, bro.

[02:08:40] I've been doing that my whole life and I finally just, 

[02:08:43] Eldar: no, you don't understand what I'm saying. 

[02:08:46] Joe: What, what's 

[02:08:47] Eldar: the difference? You missed the opportunity.

[02:08:51] Joe: What do you mean? 

[02:08:52] Eldar: The opportunity is, the fact that Toley is right now is raising the hand and saying that I do need help. Please help me. You understand? Your dad was 

[02:09:01] Joe: already, is he really? So he tells you, Hey, I collect too much cardboard. Hey, my mail is 

[02:09:06] Eldar: outta control. Yeah, he's yeah, he's saying that. He said it.

[02:09:08] He said, he's like, yeah, he realizes these things are bad. He just said it. I've 

[02:09:12] Toliy: done it. No, no. But Joe, before this, I've done it plenty of times. 

[02:09:14] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:09:15] Toliy: I asked El, I asked Mike, I asked him for help. 

[02:09:17] Eldar: And that's a good thing. That's a good thing that he should continue to try to hang on to. And that's where we get the pass in order to do it for him.

[02:09:25] Yeah. 

[02:09:25] Toliy: And, and, and 

[02:09:25] Eldar: while he focuses on 

[02:09:26] Joe: the bigger 

[02:09:26] Eldar: picture. 

[02:09:27] Joe: So, so, so why are we asked, so why are we having this back and forth where, whether or not he's in denial about. These are problems because he's saying that they're not problems and that's why he's like, I, no, he didn't say that. 

[02:09:37] Mike: He 

[02:09:37] said 

[02:09:37] Mike: it is a problem.

[02:09:38] Toliy: No, I didn't say that messy 

[02:09:39] Mike: and shit. He said 

[02:09:40] Toliy: it. I didn't say that. I acknowledge that these things are problems, just, I don't view them as like being a hoarder, but you do that, that, that thing. 

[02:09:48] Joe: But, but that's the thing. Like, uh, because it's like arguing over whether or not the label, the label means you are one or not, but whether or not you have that label or not, these issues are, are, are the, are the, the, the issue, you know, are, are gonna get worse if you don't fix them?

[02:10:07] Well, 

[02:10:07] Toliy: no, for sure. I could definitely, I, I I would agree that I could definitely potentially turn into a hoarder. Right? But if, for example, the window small right now of opportunity. Yeah. The, yeah. If, if for example, if, if, if Joe, if there was a time to, to somebody in a moment, if you were like a piece of shit to, to them, for example, right.

[02:10:27] And if I just said, Hey, hey, hey Joe, overall you're a piece aship person, would you defend yourself 

[02:10:35] Joe: overall? 

[02:10:36] Toliy: Yeah. Like you would, you would've a problem with saying, 

[02:10:38] Joe: depends on who it's coming from. 

[02:10:39] Toliy: Well, like I'm 

[02:10:41] Joe: saying, 

[02:10:41] Toliy: alright, fine. But, but, but know, but I'm saying is that like I I agree in totality you don't wanna be Of course.

[02:10:46] Yeah. I agree that yes, if things are not changed, there is potential to become a hoarder. I agree with that. 

[02:10:53] Eldar: A 

[02:10:54] Toliy: good one. Wholeheartedly. 

[02:10:54] Eldar: A very good one. 

[02:10:55] Toliy: Yes. Okay. One of the best. 

[02:10:57] Eldar: Yes. 

[02:10:57] Toliy: Right. I agree with that. I just don't think I am one right now. Do I think I have now, now if you told me this, hey, totally. Um, are you a messy person or like this, like I would agree.

[02:11:10] So, yes. Do I think that like, um, 

[02:11:14] Joe: what's 

[02:11:14] Toliy: talking 

[02:11:15] Joe: behind being called a order? What's the problem with like someone saying you, that 

[02:11:19] Eldar: sounds 

[02:11:19] Toliy: like you could like, no, I, with someone calling you, but like, what, what's wrong with somebody calling you an angry person? Like, you don't like that, right? 

[02:11:28] Joe: There's nothing wrong with it.

[02:11:29] No, there's nothing wrong with it. But if that's what I, if that's what I'm admitting to. 

[02:11:33] Toliy: No, but I'm saying that like if you disagreed with it, I'm saying Right. If you disagreed that you're an angry person and me, elder and Mike Cause definition of character. Well, exactly. If me Elder and Mike over here saying like, Hey, here's our friend Joe, but watch out.

[02:11:47] He's an angry person. You'd be like, guys, I'm not angry. Like, what are you talking about? Right. You would, you would obviously defend your character. Correct. 

[02:11:56] Mike: The truth doesn't have to be defended. Right, Joe? 

[02:12:01] Joe: Well, yeah. The truth doesn't have to be defended. And, and the same argument goes behind, like me calling an alcoholic.

[02:12:05] An alcoholic and them saying like, I'm, I'm not one. So it's like whether or not you wanna be called it or labeled one, whether or not you, 

[02:12:13] Toliy: no, no, no. Joe, I'm, I'm, I'm just trying to defend the fact that I don't think that in, in the way that, in, in, in the way that we define a hoarder, I don't think that I'm currently one right now That, that, that's all I'm saying.

[02:12:27] You disagree? Yeah. You disagree. 

[02:12:29] Mike: Actually think I, I got it. Understood. I think he needs to do whatever he is doing, but amplify it. Be more messy. Be more hordy. Yeah. So he can focus more on that stuff. 

[02:12:38] Eldar: I 

[02:12:38] Mike: told 

[02:12:39] Eldar: you 

[02:12:39] Mike: this. Yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent. 

[02:12:40] Eldar: You see, you all understood my 

[02:12:41] Mike: thought. Yeah. I understood.

[02:12:42] Yeah. 

[02:12:42] Eldar: Yeah. He's got a superpower 

[02:12:44] Mike: to 

[02:12:44] Eldar: do 

[02:12:44] Mike: something else. Like Joe, right now, Elon Musk is solving like the Yeah. The, the extinction. Extinction of humanity. 

[02:12:50] Eldar: Yes. 

[02:12:51] Mike: If you go to him and tell him, yo, you gotta wash your dishes, I'm gonna slap you. 

[02:12:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:12:54] Mike: You know, 

[02:12:55] Eldar: you 

[02:12:55] Mike: don't, and this is what you're doing right now.

[02:12:57] Yeah. Totally. Is the Messiah. He's got bigger fish to fry for the people. 

[02:13:01] Eldar: Yes. 

[02:13:02] Mike: You know? 

[02:13:02] Eldar: Yes. 

[02:13:02] Mike: He's working on much bigger things that are much more important than, than cleaning and Yes. And being messy. 

[02:13:08] Eldar: Agreed. 

[02:13:09] Mike: Because once he solves those things Yes. Then he could just outsource the rest of the, the rest, cleaning of the shit bills being paid and all this other crap.

[02:13:16] Like everybody has to focus what they're good at, Joe. Yes. 

[02:13:19] Eldar: Right. 

[02:13:20] Mike: That's socr shit. 

[02:13:21] Harris: Tell God damn it Mr. Sties. Give us a goddamn quote. 

[02:13:26] Mike: What the fuck That, that was perfect bro. Give us a goddamn 

[02:13:29] Harris: quote. 

[02:13:30] Mike: Clue. Clue. Give us a clue. Yeah. 

[02:13:34] Harris: God damnit Mr. Sarty, give us a goddamn quote. 

[02:13:38] Mike: Yeah, I think that's the thing, Joe.

[02:13:40] That's a huge, that's huge to me. Like that realization of if you're an expert at doing one thing, you have to stick to your expertise. You should, you don't need to get involved in the areas that you're not good at. Those things are not important. Yeah. If you are out there fulfilling or like living to the fullest capacity and like, uh, what is it called?

[02:14:01] Actualizing yourself in that specific area. 

[02:14:04] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:14:04] Mike: Who the fuck cares if the house is dirty or the dishes are not cleaned? Correct. 

[02:14:07] Eldar: Correct. 

[02:14:08] Mike: Those things are not like irrelevant. Now, 

[02:14:11] Eldar: of course, 

[02:14:11] Mike: if you're like being a piece of shit person, obviously it's different. 

[02:14:14] Eldar: Yes. Now, if his time is being, is being, uh, siphoned by bad stuff, anxiety, shit.

[02:14:20] Yeah. All this other crap and not creative abilities and all this other stuff, that's a different story. Then you're just a piece of shit human. Yeah. All across the board. Yeah. Yeah. 

[02:14:27] Toliy: You know, you shouldnt be 

[02:14:28] Eldar: assisted. 

[02:14:29] Toliy: Not even a year ago, like I wasn't even able to sleep at night. I was a zombie. 

[02:14:35] Joe: Oh, well there's much more, there's much more important things going on that I know, that I, I'm aware of in your life.

[02:14:40] Toliy: Well, no, I'm just saying that like, to me, 

[02:14:42] Joe: hold 

[02:14:42] Toliy: more weight to, to me, I can now go to sleep at any point. No problem. I have no problems falling asleep. I've, I don't wake up at night like that. Like I don't have any of those issues, for example, now. But that's been like, I don't know, like a seven or eight month phenomenon.

[02:14:56] I used to have anxiety every single day, especially at nighttime. I don't have that anymore. 

[02:15:03] Joe: Well, that's great. Congratulations. 

[02:15:05] Toliy: Well, no, I'm, I'm just giving you examples about like how like there's so much, and, and even now, now I have other issues like, like, like things that I'm working on now, obviously, but yeah, like, yeah, like, uh, I got no time for 

[02:15:17] Mike: this 

[02:15:17] Toliy: fucking presents shit though.

[02:15:18] Say 

[02:15:18] Mike: say it with your chest. 

[02:15:19] Toliy: God dammit. That's not what I'm saying. Oh, just 

[02:15:21] Mike: say 

[02:15:21] Toliy: it. No, but I'm, I'm in a greening set. These things are problems. 

[02:15:24] Mike: No, I disagree. These things are not problems. 

[02:15:26] Eldar: I like it. 

[02:15:27] Toliy: Alright. 

[02:15:28] Mike: These are not your problems. These not your problems. Yeah. These 

[02:15:30] Eldar: are our problems. 

[02:15:31] Mike: Yes. 

[02:15:32] Eldar: Thank you. Have 

[02:15:32] Mike: bigger fish to fry.

[02:15:33] Eldar: We got you. Tomorrow we come, we're gonna fuck shit up in there. 

[02:15:37] Mike: Yeah. 

[02:15:38] Toliy: No one's going inside tomorrow. I'm locking everything. 

[02:15:40] Eldar: The Pergo is gonna get fixed. All the cardboard's gonna be gone. Yes. All the dirt's gonna be moved. Yes. Everything 

[02:15:45] Toliy: I tell you that everything I did actually already, uh, pack most of the cardboard.

[02:15:50] Oh, that's throw away. Thank you 

[02:15:51] Eldar: for helping us. 

[02:15:52] Toliy: Yeah, because Mar asked outside because he had to work. 

[02:15:55] Joe: Do do this to me when you go tomorrow. Actually, he's gonna probably try to take care of it tonight if I tell you this. 

[02:16:03] Eldar: Yeah. It to me later, he's not gonna do like a revenge 

[02:16:05] Joe: tell. I'll you on the side.

[02:16:08] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:16:08] Joe: I'll tell you on the side. 

[02:16:09] Eldar: Cool. 

[02:16:10] Joe: I'm, uh, I'm happy for you that you know the things that are changing in your life. Um, and, uh, I wish you the best, bro. You know? Good. 

[02:16:19] Eldar: This 

[02:16:19] Joe: what I wish for 

[02:16:20] Eldar: you and you're there, you're gonna be there for him. You're gonna help us, right. With his mission. 

[02:16:23] Joe: Of course, of course.

[02:16:25] Good. Of course. And, and, and if he wants to pick my brain about, about things that are going on in his life, about anything, I'm willing to, uh, listen, no judgment, and I'm always willing to help. 

[02:16:38] Eldar: So would you say this was a very productive call? 

[02:16:41] Joe: Yeah. 

[02:16:41] Eldar: Nice. 

[02:16:42] Tom: Ring, ring. James. This is a reality calling

[02:16:48] Eldar: where you get ring. This is calling

[02:16:55] sick 

[02:16:55] Tom: ring ring. James. This is a reality calling 

[02:16:59] Eldar: Joe. You heard that too? You hear that? 

[02:17:01] Joe: I hear it. I can hear it. 

[02:17:02] Eldar: Oh, thanks. Yeah, all. Well, thank Joe. Thanks. This was a great call. Thank you so much for, uh, giving us this input on hoarding. This is definitely your subject matter, not ours. I'm glad we, we, you know, you know, you overwatched that show.

[02:17:14] I'll to catch a predator. Yeah. I'm glad we, we, we caught a hoarder and, uh, and listen whether he, 

[02:17:23] Joe: whether he agrees or not 

[02:17:24] Eldar: Yeah. Whether he agrees it or not, we got him. And, uh, again, thank you again guys. Everything was great and keep, keep on hoarding.