211. Social Masks

How do you present your authentic self when meeting new people without the awkward silences, self-doubt, or fear of judgment holding you back?

In this raw and revealing episode of The Dennis Rox Podcast, Eldar, Mike, Katherine, and Toliy dive deep into the real struggles of meeting new people, overcoming social anxiety, and learning how to present yourself authentically in social settings. They unpack why so many of us freeze up, people-please, or hide behind masks — and exactly what it takes to drop the performance and actually connect.

You’ll hear honest stories about people-pleasing, the speed of insecurities and traumas in social moments, and why most surface-level small talk leaves everyone feeling empty. The crew explores how to lead conversations instead of following them, the power of vulnerability, and why trusting others might be the wrong focus altogether.

One of the most insightful moments comes from Toliy, who explains: “If you buy into yourself enough, you don’t need that trust from them… because you actually trust yourself and you buy into yourself. And honestly that should be enough.”

They also break down accountability in social interactions (Mike drops a powerful line on why we should hold ourselves accountable first), the hidden cost of always trying to be liked, and how to stop diminishing your own story when someone asks “What do you do?”

What happens when you finally stop performing and start leading with who you actually are? One brutally honest story about a chance encounter with a stranger reveals why radical authenticity can change everything… and why most people are too scared to try it.

If you’ve ever walked into a room full of new people and felt your stomach drop, this episode is your permission slip — and your playbook.

Ready to stop people-pleasing and start showing up as yourself? Hit play, then subscribe, rate, and review The Dennis Rox Podcast so you never miss an episode that actually helps you level up your life and relationships. Share this with someone who needs to hear it.

Feel stuck and can't actualize? We'd love to hear your story - form  - https://forms.gle/joegCWQ7mHt7eN3K9

Transcript

[00:00:00] Dennis: On this week's episode 

[00:00:01] Katherine: When you are so worried about, like, how you are being perceived, you're not being yourself. There you go. You're worried about the wrong things. And so then when you're worried about things, then you're not letting loose and you're not having fun. 

[00:00:13] Mike: It's not that you're not quick enough, but there's something else that's actually happening that's much quicker.

[00:00:17] Mm-hmm. With the insecurities. The insecurities, the traumas, the fears. The fears, yeah. They're much faster than you can think. Yeah. They don't even give you a second to think. If you wanna hold somebody accountable, you don't hold that person accountable. Yeah. You hold yourself accountable, so you can actually learn from those experiences.

[00:00:32] If you don't- Yeah ... then you're just gonna be like forever like having- You, you, you're always pointing the finger ... pointing the finger.

[00:00:43] Eldar: All right, guys, another topic. This one's gonna be around meeting new people. All right? 'Cause, uh, probably everyone felt this before where we go into a setting where we've, you know, we, we don't know the people that we're meeting, and you feel kind of awkward. You're kind of observing, you've trying to f- trying to figure out what, what you should say, how you should present yourself, who you are in those moments.

[00:01:08] And we probably f- all of us felt these awkward moments of maybe silence, of not knowing how to properly introduce ourselves, maybe, you know, start a conversation, chime into a conversation. But these awkward moments definitely happen, right? So the question around tonight's topic is gonna be how do you present yourself, especially around, uh, new people socially, right?

[00:01:28] And, um, I guess, and how to max- maximize the amount of fun, um, the depth of conversation that you can have in those, uh, new social interactions. But before we dive into this topic, I do wanna hit this one hot button, uh, for, especially for the new listeners and everyone else, and for you guys as well. I think you j- will enjoy it.

[00:01:52] Intro: Oh, gather round now for Eldar and for Mike, and listen to the words from our dear brother Toly. From the Dennis Rocks Podcast, a comfort to the soul. Their profound insights make our weary spirits whole. 

[00:02:22] Toliy: All right, guys. Thank you. I felt like... 

[00:02:24] Intro: Have 

[00:02:25] Katherine: you, do you know this, the radio station K-Love? It's like a Christian- No.

[00:02:30] It's Christian music. Yeah. And 

[00:02:31] Mike: it's 

[00:02:31] Katherine: this feels like a K-Love- Was it good? Go- 

[00:02:34] Mike: gospel. Okay. 

[00:02:35] Katherine: This feels like gospel. Yeah. It, it, was that the intention or like- Yeah, 

[00:02:38] Eldar: I thought that was pretty funny. Yeah. You know, so I was like, you know, "Gather around now, you know, for- It definitely doesn't like- ... for our brother Toly."

[00:02:43] I feel like a retard right now. 

[00:02:44] Katherine: I definitely, I don't know if it suits us. Well, it definitely doesn't. That's 

[00:02:48] Mike: why I thought it was funny. Oh, okay. Where did you make this? Or like, "Why'd you make this? How'd you make this?" Oh, I remember- Good question. I don't wanna give- 

[00:02:55] Eldar: listen, the magician doesn't give away his tricks.

[00:02:56] Yeah. You know what 

[00:02:57] Katherine: I mean? I, I remember when it was, uh, in the works. All I'm gonna say is this- Oh, you 

[00:03:00] Eldar: heard this before? But listen, all I'm gonna say is this- Not specifically ... all I'm gonna say is this: there's thousands of people that are listening- Yes ... now. Not thousands, but like, you know, we get thousands of listens now.

[00:03:11] Mm-hmm. Which is interesting, right? Uh, we actually had a question from one, uh, one... Maybe we could dive in a little bit later. Um, that's all I'm gonna say. 

[00:03:21] Okay. 

[00:03:21] You know what I mean? Fair enough. There's potentially somebody offered their services. Mm-hmm. I'm not saying that's what happened. 

[00:03:27] Mike: Okay. 

[00:03:28] Eldar: But because there's a lot of people out there- Yeah

[00:03:30] that is a potential. Yeah. You wanna hear it again, Toly? I would love to hear it again. You know, I 

[00:03:35] Katherine: was looking around- We'll do it at the end ... and I'm like, "Okay, it looks like Mike is in on it, or he knew about it-" Yeah. "... the way that 

[00:03:41] Eldar: he-" Brother Toly. 

[00:03:42] Katherine: But when I looked over at Toly, he was kinda like- Brother Toly

[00:03:45] I was like, "

[00:03:45] Eldar: Okay, this is-" All right, let's get to the topic. Guys, we all felt this, right? Yeah. The listeners that listen to this podcast, they felt this too. They probably, you know, go... Will meet somebody new, will go into a social setting where we feel a little bit maybe socially awkward, socially retarded.

[00:04:01] Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Um, so how do you deal with that? How do you present yourself in such a way where you get the most out of the interaction, um, have fun, as much fun as you can, right, um, and come out of it where maybe you can develop a new friendship, right, um, in order to maximize, like I said, your, your fun?

[00:04:23] What do you guys think? Babe, I think this topic is very, um, relevant to you. Yeah. Because I know you on a, on a new quest. 

[00:04:31] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:31] Eldar: Not a side quest, but a new quest of disc- rediscovering yourself in these types of social settings and how- Mm ... you know, pre- so presenting your new self, let's just call it new self, quote-unquote- Mm-hmm

[00:04:44] can be sometimes maybe challenging and tricky. 

[00:04:46] Katherine: Yeah, it's very challenging. Yeah. So new social settings for me are, are like, it can be very challenging. Um, meeting new people. Like, like you said, like just, you know, even, like, knowing when to insert, like, the right thing, I just, it just... It's, it can be really awkward for me.

[00:05:02] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:05:02] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:05:04] Eldar: Why? 

[00:05:07] Katherine: Mm, I have been like this as long as I can remember, so it's just, it's funny, like knowing the why. Are you unsure about 

[00:05:14] Mike: yourself 

[00:05:15] Katherine: in those moments? I can be sometimes, sometimes. Is it, is 

[00:05:18] Mike: it, like, a... I just thought about, like, a, is a self-conscious thing, right? Yeah. Like a 

[00:05:23] Katherine: good thing? I think I'm self-conscious.

[00:05:25] I think for a long time that, like, people-pleasing side of me never wanted to make anyone upset, I guess, by, like, something that I could say or, like, people to, you know, to- Mm. You know, like, you avoid conflict. Like, I ha- I kind of avoided conflict most of the time. 

[00:05:43] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:05:43] Katherine: So not wanting to disappoint or wanting people to like me or think a certain, certain way about me has been important And, uh, you know, not liking static as we call it, you know?

[00:05:53] Mm-hmm. So I think that when you are so worried about, like, how you are being perceived, does that person like me? Oh, was that awkward? D- d- do they not like me? Like, did I say the wrong thing? Oh, I shouldn't have said that. Um, you start getting, like, so, like, in your mind that, like... Then you're not having a- an authentic experience.

[00:06:12] You're not being yourself. There you go. You're worried about the wrong things. Um, and so then when you're worried about things, then you just, you're not letting loose and you're not having fun and, you know. Um, yeah. 

[00:06:25] Eldar: That's why a lot of times I think, you know, uh, w- why at least maybe alcohol is so socially accepted.

[00:06:30] Yeah, of course. Because, you know, um, it definitely breaks the ice a little bit. Yeah. I've 

[00:06:33] Katherine: been there f- for sure. You know- Yeah ... I've been there, um, especially, like, if I would... Like, for example, back when I was, you know, I was working in the city and, um, you know, everyone's had a stressful week. Everyone is like, can't wait to, like, go out and hang out.

[00:06:46] So, like, a c- a couple of coworkers, we'd go out to a bar that was, like, a block or two away from our office and just, like, decompress from- And be 

[00:06:54] Eldar: themselves. 

[00:06:54] Katherine: Yeah. You know, you get out, it's, you know, it's a maybe sometimes a high-stress environment, which it was, it was for us, l- you know, in law firms, and then you would, like, just relax.

[00:07:03] And for me, once I had a drink, like, I felt like, like that shell was kind of breaking apart and I could just relax. Like, my t- like, my shoulders are not as tight and I can have a laugh- Mm-hmm ... and, like, just be okay, you know? But I remember, especially in my 20s, that being a crutch. You know, like, I f- I felt like it could be a crutch to, to, like, let go.

[00:07:27] To- To actually use that as... Yeah ... to, to, to not be as- Yeah ... like, uptight 'cause I'm generally an uptight person. So yeah, I c- I can see how people actually can, can really rely on that for that. Well, 

[00:07:37] Eldar: of course. Think about especially when you're working in a very tense environment, for example, that you have to be very, let's qu- say quote, unquote, "professional", right?

[00:07:45] Oh, yeah. Corporate. Yeah. Especially if you're- Mm-hmm ... a people pleaser and you're a person of, uh, that carries a lot of fear- Yeah ... or self-conscious about yourself or, you know, all those insecurities, right? Of course, the whole week is gonna be so tense, right? That you're carrying this, let's just say mask or this, like- Yeah

[00:08:02] uh, identity that's not really who you'd like to be. Yeah. Right? You look forward to the w- to the Friday night where you can go out with your friends and finally- Yeah. All week- ... chug, chug some booze- You would look for- And then you're like- You would 

[00:08:12] Katherine: look forward to Friday ... "Oh, finally 

[00:08:13] Eldar: I can relax a little bit," you know?

[00:08:15] Mm-hmm. In order to finally maybe be myself and let go of that mask and all that stuff that's was so difficult to carry throughout the week. 

[00:08:23] Katherine: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But so, uh, one, one thing that is, is, like, that I'm thinking about is, like- Yeah ... okay, once you, um- Like, you know, when you're not dealing with, like, this mask and, and you're so worried about how you're coming off to other people and you're so, like, caught up in your, in your mind, like, who really is the unmasked person?

[00:08:43] Like, who- That's right ... who are, who are we really gonna present? Like, who are we, uh, when we're not anxious, you know, about social, like, interaction, you know? Yeah. Um, yeah, like who, who really, who really is under all of that, you know? 

[00:08:57] Eldar: It's a good question. 

[00:08:58] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:09:00] Eldar: Did you find that person when you did drink, and then you kind of, uh, let loose?

[00:09:03] Did you find that person? How, you know, who was that? 

[00:09:07] Katherine: No, I wouldn't say, like, it helped me find myself. It would just let me not... Just the, the pressure, like, just physically- Mm ... like, would dissolve a little bit, like, you know- Yeah ... like that pressure on your shoulders or whatever- Mm ... after a whole week- 

[00:09:22] Mike: Mm ... 

[00:09:22] Katherine: um, of just, like, feeling more relaxed and so, you know.

[00:09:27] I don't know, but I've never been, like, the social driver, like, let's say, of a conversation or anything like that. Mm-hmm. No, no, no. No, not really. But 

[00:09:35] Eldar: did you find yourself kind of maybe able to take in certain conversations easier with the coworkers or chime in, uh, and kinda maybe be yourself a little bit?

[00:09:44] Chime in, 

[00:09:44] Katherine: laugh a lot more. Laugh a lot more. I feel like once I'm having a nice ti- I laugh a lot more. Mm-hmm. Uh, yeah, not worried about, like, people's perceptions of me so much. Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:56] Eldar: So? 

[00:09:58] Toliy: Yeah, I feel like a, a lot of the, s- like, um, weird scenarios I guess if we wanna call it, I feel like there's like three or four, you know, m- maybe more s- like, uh, things at, like, play here, right?

[00:10:13] 'Cause, like, I think the majority of, like... Well, I don't know if majority's a fair, fair word, but a lot of just, like, social conversations with people that, I don't know, you t- you either don't know at all or you don't see very frequently. They're all, they're all talking about relatively, like, the same thing, right?

[00:10:30] They're all, like, either in the sphere of, like- Current events ... like, sports, politics, like, finances, money, right? Like, they're, they're just like that, and I feel like there's definitely a lot of conversations that, like, people that are m- may- maybe feel that, like, they're ahead in that kind of thing, they can try, they could, they can...

[00:10:51] You know, it's their opportunity to- Take lead. Yeah, to, like- Mm-hmm ... lead and to flex a bit. Mm-hmm. Right? And to, like... You know, if they're all about money, for example, and the conversation's about finances or stocks or, like, stuff like that- They'll talk about their accomplishments. Yeah. Then everyone, uh, uh, out, out of nowhere talking about crypto, you know, and all this, like, stuff.

[00:11:08] Oh, gosh. And everyone... Like, yeah, like, you're almost like, like, you're almost being looked up to by the other people in the conversation that maybe, like, don't know as much or, like- Yeah ... they're just not as familiar. So you, like, you feel like a top dog I guess in, in, in that moment. Mm-hmm. So then, like, the people that are quiet, they kind of, you know, they feel that energy that they- There's a, uh, supposed like, um, or like alleged, uh, pit bull in this mix, right?

[00:11:37] And they just try to like, you know, tone it down- Keep it down ... and they may not know. And then like that to me is like one thing I played. The other, other thing is I feel like, um, maybe a lot of people have, um, yeah, like they, they definitely fear of like, uh, being judged by others or not fitting into the setting- Mm-hmm

[00:11:53] or like having people rule them out may- maybe, or maybe like talk poorly about them behind their backs. Mm. So because of that they're gonna kind of like refrain with showing like who they are- Mm ... and be more, again, politically correct. Just scared of- Try to- ... judgment ... yeah, yeah. Try to fit in and do that.

[00:12:12] But they also like, this is only important when you have an attachment to be liked to begin with. You know? Yes. If you, if you don't have an attachment to that, if you're in the attitude of like, "Hey, like, these people don't like me," well, like, all right, like, who gives a fuck? Yeah. Yeah, but usually 

[00:12:26] Katherine: that, um, is, connects with like self-esteem.

[00:12:30] Like if- Well, yes ... if you s- if you love, have enough l- self-love and you're comfortable with who you are, then you won't care about, oh, X, Y, Z didn't like me. 

[00:12:39] Toliy: Well, yes. You know what I mean? But there's also like levels of that, right? Like- Mm-hmm ... you could feel that like, hey, like you have good self-esteem and like you know- Mm-hmm

[00:12:46] who you are, but then you get thrown into an environment where people start to judge you and like that. And like, like your, your like, um, I don't know, like what's the best way to say it? But like your like castle may not be as strong as you think it is- Mm ... until you're in that kind of environment and you're able to properly, I guess like part of it is properly defend yourself so that like you're happy with like how it is.

[00:13:11] Um, but you could easily get like eaten alive if, if, if you're, if, if you're not versed in that. 

[00:13:17] Eldar: Mm. You know? So, so you're almost saying that you almost have to have like, um, an opinion or a stance. 

[00:13:23] Toliy: Um, well, so you don't have to have one, but if you do have one- You better s- ... you better be right, and you be able, and you better be able to articulate yourself.

[00:13:30] Otherwise you're gonna feel those feelings. Otherwise you're gonna feel those feelings- Well, yeah ... and if, and if- And what if, and what if 

[00:13:34] Katherine: that's something that you struggle with? Like- 

[00:13:36] Toliy: Well, yeah, then if, if that's what, what it is, then you will create trauma for yourself, you will create PTSD for yourself.

[00:13:42] You better stay quiet. And you will, and you will stay silent because- And 

[00:13:44] Katherine: then what you do is you stay quiet. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You don't speak your mind. So, 

[00:13:49] Toliy: yeah. You know? But a lot of people also- Which is where I've been ... like a lot of people they just like, they talk about nothing, and they have these like small talk like things about, again, about like nothing.

[00:14:00] Mm-hmm. And they're like, like that's almost like their like, I don't know, like their like de-stress outlet to like say something. Mm-hmm. You know? Especially I feel like if it's a bunch of like couples who get together, right, if they don't have like a ton of friends, for example, and then like this is their time to not like only talk with the person who they're like in a relationship with, for, for example.

[00:14:20] Yeah. I feel like then they will like, you know, they'll wanna like talk up a storm and talk about all these like little things. Mm-hmm. Because everyone's kind of playing that almost like respect game, then it's like, like nothing's happening It never gets anywhere. It never gets anywhere ... it never gets anywhere- Mm-hmm

[00:14:34] because like it's a bunch of people just like kind of talking out of their ass, I guess if you wanna say it. But be- but because everyone's doing it, it's not even considered talking out of your ass at that point, because it's like there's no one, there, there's no one there to like, have like a checks and balances system to kind of see.

[00:14:51] Eldar: So what do you suggest for a person, for example, like Catherine? How do you go into having- Well, I think for a person- ... a meaning- 

[00:14:56] Toliy: meaningful interaction or- Yeah ... conversation? Well, well I think for a person like Catherine, I feel like, um, I feel like maybe she hasn't decided yet, like either who she is or who she wants to be, and like is sure of it.

[00:15:09] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:10] Toliy: Because like if you're not sure of that, then, um, like if, if, if you're sure of it, you will be willing to always put everything on the line at any single moment. You'll be able to- Mm ... you'll, you'll be willing to hold court without any fear of repercussions or like- 

[00:15:26] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:15:27] Toliy: you know, like any, like anything.

[00:15:29] There, there's nothing that could like kind of, kind of almost like scare you- Mm-hmm ... because like you're so sure of yourself and you're so confident in that kind of way. 

[00:15:37] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:38] Toliy: Um, but I feel like maybe she hasn't like chosen or maybe like fully, I guess- Chosen a side. Yeah. You know what? Like chosen a side.

[00:15:45] And, and I 

[00:15:46] Eldar: think you're right about that because obviously, you know, Catherine is my wife, and I've known her for some time, right? And a lot of times, um, in any kind of social circles or any kind of like, even if we're just like walking together and we're just observing people, I'll say certain things.

[00:16:02] I'll beat her to the punch. Yeah. She'll laugh at it. She'll agree with it, but she won't dare say those things herself- No ... for example. Mm. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, you know, so like she is holding back. Yeah. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like, even though she would, you know, even the small thing- I think when, when-

[00:16:15] like we say like, like, "What's wrong with this guy?" You know? You're like, "Oh, shit, 

[00:16:18] Toliy: you're right. You know, I was just thinking that," you know? Yeah. I think, I, I think- Yeah ... when Cat doesn't hold back- Yeah ... she's like, she surpasses my level of meanness by, by a mile. Yes. By a mile. It's true. You know? I, I believe that.

[00:16:29] I think you might be right. By a mile. I, I, I self-reflect- Yeah ... 

[00:16:31] Katherine: and I'm like, damn, like that... Yeah, that, that sounds mean. Yeah. 

[00:16:36] Toliy: Yeah. You see? Like that, but I also know, yeah, like in a social- So am I just like a 

[00:16:39] Katherine: gremlin? Am, am I just like a really mean person? And this- Well, that's what Mike was asking himself too recently too

[00:16:43] and this is what I need to embrace? Am I, am I a grouch? Well, no, but I also have to insist- I never wanted to be one. 

[00:16:47] Toliy: No. Yeah. But I also think that like w- if you hold back a lot- Yes ... you will feel like you sound more mean than if you just had like a s- like a steady pulse of like a- Talking, yeah. Like- ... of like dishing it out.

[00:17:00] It's funny, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's funny. Now like you have like, you know- Getting, getting 

[00:17:02] Katherine: good at dishing it out, I guess ... yeah, like you 

[00:17:04] Toliy: have a buildup that happens, and then you're just super mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Be- because like you're- Yeah ... you've been wanting to say something and you ha- and you haven't said it- Yeah

[00:17:12] so the meanness like grows almost, you know? Mm-hmm. Whereas like if you consistently dished it out- It would be m- like, like less, I- It, 

[00:17:20] Katherine: yeah ... guess. I, I kn- I, I- But, 

[00:17:22] Toliy: but- ... understand ... I, yeah, but I don't view it as definitely a bad thing. I, I, I v- I, I, I view it more of, like, you, you feel one way maybe about people, but maybe you're not sure if you wanna tell them about that, you know?

[00:17:34] Or, like, if, if you're comfortable with them knowing that you feel this way. 

[00:17:39] Katherine: Yeah. Gauging w- when and why, like, why it's appropriate to, to share that is, is, is weird for me. 

[00:17:47] Toliy: Yeah. I- ideally- You know? ... you have, like, you know, close friends, obviously, and relationships with people where, like, you could just be like, "Hey, like, hey, you, like, you're a moron."

[00:17:55] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:56] Toliy: And then it's just like, "All right." May- maybe they'll ask you, "Okay, well, how am I a moron?" You know? Um, right? You, you get into some kind of a static or back and forth- Yes ... at 

[00:18:05] Eldar: least to be able to- Yeah ... you know, hold co- court, like you said, and, and kind of put your point across in a, you know, you're saying it maybe in the more constructive way versus just a, a mean way.

[00:18:17] Mike: Yeah. But that's, like, already down the line in a relationship. I think so, yeah. Yeah. Probably. I don't think this is, like, the first day- No, no, no, for sure. Yeah ... you start doing static. Yeah, yeah. No, definitely. 

[00:18:25] Katherine: Can you imagine? Definitely. No. No, but I, 

[00:18:27] Eldar: I still think that those people do exist, and those people do get something out of that where they can get into heated debates- Yeah

[00:18:34] have hot takes- Yeah, yeah. For sure ... opposing hot takes- No, for sure ... and get into a conversation that is- Absolutely ... lively, and I- Yeah ... I don't think anything wrong with that. No, I don't. 

[00:18:42] Mike: You know what I mean? Yeah, but you- 'Cause I think a lot of people- I don't, I don't, I don't think that's, like, 

[00:18:44] Toliy: unusual ... but, but, but you have to be really good at holding your own in a conversation to participate in that.

[00:18:50] Otherwise- Yes, I agree ... you will get eaten alive, and you will have trauma and PTSD from it, and you will never say a word. 

[00:18:56] Katherine: I, yeah, agree. Mm. Because 

[00:18:57] Toliy: there's gonna be that one person in that group- 

[00:18:59] Katherine: Mm-hmm ... that has 

[00:19:00] Toliy: a big mouth. Yeah. Right. They're not afraid, for example. And, and, and to fight- Right? ... 

[00:19:03] Katherine: to, to, to be able- You know?

[00:19:05] to stand up to a person like that, you at least have to, you have to be able to hold your ground. Well, you have to- Or be really good at express- Well, you have to know your shit ... yeah. So a lot of times what happens to me is, like, my processing of, of what's, what's going on in a conversation or whatever, some people are really fast and witty and quick, and I, I am not.

[00:19:23] Sometimes I just, I, I, I need to process longer, and by the time I have, like, you know, like, I, I- A comeback ... figure out, like, with my comeback, or not even a comeback, but just, like, how do I actually feel about this? Like- Mm ... uh, and then, and then they know- But, see, I feel like- ... how to express it, it, it doesn't, it doesn't click.

[00:19:40] I'm, I- But I, but see, I feel like- ... I'm not always good at expressing myself ... 

[00:19:42] Toliy: I, yeah, I feel like that happens when you don't express yourself enough and you only, like, kind of- Bottle up ... sit back and think. No, 

[00:19:49] Mike: but, uh, my, my thought on this, what you just said, is actually it's not, it's not that you're not quick enough, but there's something else that's actually happening that's much quicker.

[00:19:58] Mm-hmm. With the insecurities. The insecurities, the traumas, the fears. The fears, yeah. They're much faster than you can think. Yeah. They don't even- Mm ... give you a second to think. Yeah. Like, I, I mean- 'Cause you're processing those. You, you're- Yeah ... going into the PTSD of- I, I'm also- Yeah ... I'm 

[00:20:10] Katherine: also fighting with, like- Um, I have impulsivity- Yeah

[00:20:14] that I, I have to be mindful of. Like, sometimes I, I will say things before I think. Yeah. And then I sit there, and then I feel shame, and I'm like, "Oh, my God, that was so stupid." Like, I, I didn't even... Like, that's not even, like, really what I me- Like, I just didn't- 

[00:20:26] Toliy: Think it through ... I 

[00:20:27] Katherine: didn't think it before I said it, and so, like, I'm always also, like, kind of, you know, trying to may- not control it, but be aware of that impulsivity that I have.

[00:20:36] Yeah. I also have this thing where, um, uh, my nature with impulsivity is, is to interrupt, not because I wanna be rude, but it's like in the moment, like, the, the thought is there- Mm-hmm ... and I have to, like, say it. Yeah. So I'm, like, trying to be mindful of, of how I'm communicating- Mm ... I guess. Yeah. Um, but more so, like, um, I don't know.

[00:20:57] Eldar: You, like, have Jared. 

[00:20:58] Katherine: Yes. It's impulsive. Yes, that's very impulsive behavior. Yeah. Yeah. He's very impulsive when he speaks. Yeah. Yes. You know? Yeah. And I, I have that. Mm-hmm. You know, I'm just trying to- 

[00:21:09] Toliy: Be aware of it and mindful of it. 

[00:21:10] Katherine: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:21:11] Toliy: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I feel like you have to, um... Yeah, like you have to, like, almost as much as possible practice, I guess, getting into fights with people and, like, you know- Mm-hmm

[00:21:23] like a figurative- Yeah, no ... sense. That sounds- Right? So that then- ... crazy 

[00:21:26] Katherine: to me. Yeah. That sounds crazy to me. As a person who, who doesn't know how to do it and has been avoiding it her whole life- Yeah, yeah ... that- But that is the thing, though ... sounds 

[00:21:32] Toliy: crazy ... if, if you don't do that, when you get into, like, those kinds of environments, like, yeah, I mean, amongst new people, amongst people with status, amongst people with- Yeah

[00:21:41] certain positions, right? Like- Loud mouths, yeah. Yeah, like- Yeah ... you're just gonna, like- 

[00:21:45] Katherine: And those are all things that I dislike. You know? So, like, in social settings, I was just telling Eldar- Yeah ... about this, like, brunch that was held for, like, a friend of mine or someone that used to be my friend, and it was all people around my age, and they were all new to me.

[00:22:00] I didn't meet... I di- I didn't know m- most of them. And what happens is, "Oh, hey, what's your... Like, how are you? I'm this." Or, you know, you know, right, brunch and, "Where do you live? Do you live in the same town?" "No, I'm, I'm over here." "Oh, how's Jersey?" Okay, you know, they're in New York. I'm in New Jersey. And then it, it goes into, like, "What do you do?"

[00:22:21] And a lot of people really identify with what they do for a living. Yeah. For me, that's not how I am, and it's not w- like, it's just not, like, a, a relevant thing in, in my life in this moment. So- No, but- No, no, yeah. Yeah. That, that, that to me is the- That's a problem ... 

[00:22:39] Toliy: that, that, that to me is the biggest problem Yeah 

[00:22:42] Katherine: Well, yeah, that's why I'm saying this No, 

[00:22:44] Toliy: no, no.

[00:22:44] So, 

[00:22:45] Katherine: the, the, no, but I, what I wanna get to is, like, the value system there is, is how they're presenting. There is an honor, there's a pride, there's a status thing- Yeah ... that is involved with what they do. Yeah. Um, then it, it, it- 

[00:22:57] Toliy: Yeah, but that's the problem, is that you, you should be having 10X that- Correct

[00:23:00] honor and pride- In what you do ... in what you do, but you're not, but you're almost, like, devaluing yourself as soon as- Yes ... that conversation- Yeah, absolutely ... mm, goes in. And I, I- Versus, like- ... I'm 

[00:23:09] Katherine: also, like, not excited to sit here and talk about, like- Yeah ... payroll and billing. Like, it's not exciting for me, you know what I mean?

[00:23:17] Well, no, not even that. Like, I can't sit here and, like, talk about that. 

[00:23:19] Toliy: It's like you're, you're on, like, a, like, a self-discovery, self, like, dev, like, journey, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, if you were to throw that into the conversation, like, everybody should be ready to pick your- Yeah ... brain and, like- 

[00:23:30] Katherine: I think I have to-

[00:23:30] talk to you ... uh, learn how to express that part of my life, because that's the most, that's the biggest- Yeah ... and that's what I do wanna talk about and what I find- Yeah ... more interesting. I just don't even know how to, like, throw it in a, in a sen- Like, oh, okay, yeah, like, I, you know, I, I, I, I, I do some, like, billing work.

[00:23:46] Yeah, like, no. But, but I'm really focusing my energies into this, for example. Um- 

[00:23:51] Eldar: Well, there you go. And I think that we should talk about what Mike mentioned earlier, is that, you know, in the conversation you have to be able to steer it in a direction- 

[00:24:01] Katherine: Yeah ... 

[00:24:02] Eldar: that you actually want it to go, right? In this case, right, if the conversation's completely about careers and all the little fucking bullshit- Yeah, 

[00:24:08] Katherine: I really don't like those

[00:24:09] you know what I mean? I'm not interested. If you don't know how to 

[00:24:11] Eldar: insert yourself properly- I don't ... or present yourself, like Toliy just said, properly- Yeah ... you're never gonna be able to steer the conversation in such a, in such a way where it's meaningful enough for everyone to have your attention. 

[00:24:21] Mike: Yeah.

[00:24:22] You 

[00:24:22] Eldar: know what I mean? Because you don't necessarily actually agree with it in the first place. You don't believe that, and therefore you can never kinda chime in and say, say it with your chest, 

[00:24:32] you know? 

[00:24:33] Yeah. Uh, one of our listeners, uh, OG listeners, I'm gonna give him a shout-out. Anybody who's OG, I'm gonna give 'em a shout-out.

[00:24:38] Is Joe, right? And after he's retired from being a fire, a fireman, right? I mean, he was, he retired kinda a little bit forcefully from his health, right? He had a really hard time, um, telling people that he was retired, that he's no longer a fireman. 

[00:24:57] Mike: Mm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:58] Eldar: Every time he came across new people, he would say, hey, like, you know, kinda, like, avoided the subject or kinda made something up, or even said maybe fireman.

[00:25:05] Yeah. He would lie. So he would lie, right? Yeah, yeah, 'cause 

[00:25:07] Katherine: people probably look at him like- Oh, yeah ... hey, you're a young guy, like, why are you retired? Yes, or for that- And then you have to, like, explain ... but many ti- yeah, 

[00:25:11] Eldar: for many, for many years he was probably identify himself, s- found himself proud to be a fireman, right?

[00:25:18] But you know, I, I kinda challenged him. I said, "Hey, Joe, like, well, now you're a dad. Like, you're a sto- a stay-at-home dad, and this is a very important role." And we broke it all down and he's like- Yeah ... "No, you're right about that." Like, what- And he's so blessed to be able to do that ... why am... Yeah, exactly. Like, why was he- Diminishing his role- Yeah

[00:25:33] his current thing and his current journey- Yeah ... for himself and not being actually proud of what he's doing. 

[00:25:38] Mike: Mm-hmm. You know? 

[00:25:39] Eldar: And plus, like retiring early, I mean sure, he, he, he, you know, he retired not in the way that he wanted, but nonetheless retiring early and then being able to do things that you actually- Yeah

[00:25:48] wanna do and have more time for- Amazing ... is a good thing. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But the rewiring of that identity- Mm-hmm ... or removing that and then leading with it- Yeah ... it's a challenge. 

[00:25:57] Katherine: Well, the thing too is like society doesn't really value that. I- 

[00:26:01] Eldar: And you- Yeah ... buying into that, and you continue to- Yeah

[00:26:04] do what? And especially- You promote it ... 

[00:26:06] Katherine: if I'm in that community, if I'm in that circle, like, you know, that brunch, I can tell you like m- most girls are presenting like, "Oh, what do you do? What do you do this?" You know, like I, I'm, I'm definitely- Yeah ... uh, the, uh, what's, what's the word? Like the outlier- Yeah ... in terms of like- Imagine you started the company

[00:26:23] technically being a housewife But ima- 

[00:26:24] Eldar: yes. But imagine- You know? ... imagine, imagine when it, it's your turn that comes around at the table and then you presented yourself in such a way where it's like, "Oh, ladies, you don't understand what I actually do for a living. When you hear it- ... you're gonna lose your shit.

[00:26:40] So I'm gonna tell you right now, everyone at this table is after it, but you guys don't know how to get it." Mm. You see? 

[00:26:47] Katherine: I, I, I barely know how to get it. I'm still struggling myself. No, but, but that's the truth, right? But yeah. But, but that's the truth. But like to be in the position- I have 

[00:26:53] Eldar: the opportunity to- Yeah

[00:26:54] X, Y, and Z. Work on myself. Yeah. Be a stay-at-home, right? Mm-hmm. Like take care of my husband, have a great relationship, take care of my dogs, all this stuff. Like- Yeah ... you can name this in such a way where, I mean, I actually believe that. Yeah. I'm not sure if you actually believe that. Yes. I 

[00:27:09] Toliy: do, but I, I- Yeah

[00:27:10] I have to- That, that, that, that is the biggest difference ... I think I 

[00:27:12] Katherine: have to like really sink my, my feet into it, you know? Like, um- 

[00:27:16] Eldar: But like how, like explain that. How, how do you- And when it comes to- How can she sink herself into it when like- No, but you know what I mean, like you know- Well, you have to-

[00:27:22] taking, 

[00:27:22] Katherine: taking that aside how you guys said. Yeah. It's, it's being able to stand my ground when the, the, the room is full of people that, that, that are, you know, on, on this spectrum, and I'm over here. Yeah. And, and like learning how to bridge that gap and actually... It, it comes down to communication as well, you know?

[00:27:39] Yeah. Like how I'm communicating- Well, there you 

[00:27:41] Eldar: go ... 

[00:27:41] Katherine: and really putting it- 

[00:27:42] Eldar: But if you don't see yourself as that, if you don't see yourself as the luckiest girl in the world- Yeah ... you're not gonna come across as the luckiest person in the world. Yes. You're gonna come across- You're gonna be the smallest 

[00:27:50] Toliy: mouse- Yes

[00:27:51] in the room. Yes. You have to be convi- like, yeah, you have to be sure of like- Th- this is actually what you want and, like, you're happy about it, and you can scream and shout, shout from, like- Yeah ... the rooftops about it. Because if you're gonna be acting 

[00:28:04] Katherine: the way you are- No, I think, I think it's 100% you guys are right on the money

[00:28:06] Eldar: I, I would promote you to go get a job and compete with these women so you can talk shit when, when you do come across those circles. 

[00:28:12] Katherine: Yeah. So- Get a job ... most of the time I feel very blessed to be in the position, most of the time. And then I have moments of doubt where I'm like, like, "What am I doing? Am I r- like, really living to my potential?

[00:28:26] Like, what really is my purpose?" You know, like, all those, all those moments. Yeah. And then I'm thinking to myself, like, "Is this the right thing? Should I be doing something different?" You know? And I think that it's because I, I probably haven't, like, just fully- 

[00:28:37] Eldar: You're not doing buy-in ... chosen 

[00:28:39] Katherine: or, or, like, a full buy-in.

[00:28:40] Like, trust me, I do all the time. I'm like, "Oh, wow, I'm so lucky." Like, I get to get up and, and do this today or, you know, like, I, you know. I know what it's like to schlep- But you don't lead ... to a job that, that I didn't like. You don't lead with that. You don't lead with that. And, you know? So I think that, like, that, that, uh, occasional doubt that I have about that- Yeah

[00:28:59] it, it, it doesn't allow me to just fully, like, uh- Yeah ... just appreciate it and dive, and dive in. Like, sometimes- Or lead with it ... I'm like, to, do you know, should I go back to school and, like, finish my degree at least, you know? 

[00:29:08] Mike: Mm. 

[00:29:09] Katherine: What, what if something were to happen to my husband and then I have to go back and, like, you know, into the workforce?

[00:29:14] What the hell am I gonna do, and how am I gonna sustain a lifestyle that, y- you know, like, that I, I would never be... I, I couldn't afford before, you know, when I was just working? So all these things come to mind. You're like, "What if something..." You know, and then, like- Yeah, see, like, you haven't- It's always doubts

[00:29:28] Toliy: you ha- you haven't, like, probably bought into, like, the thing that you're doing, right? Um, like, you haven't benefited from it enough in, like, in, like, a conscious way- Mm ... where, like, you're actually enjoying, like, the situation, for example, that you're in or, like, let's just say, like... Yeah, yeah, like, what, what, what you have at your disposal or like- Yeah

[00:29:50] like, it's like, um, um... Like, I'm trying to give an example. It's like, um, there, there are certain thing, like, there are certain things in society that are, like, in most groups they're, like, respected almost, you know? Like, amongst our parents, "Oh, he's a lawyer," right? Yeah. Everyone's like, "

[00:30:11] Katherine: Wow, what a great son."

[00:30:12] Your title. What? Yeah. You know? Yeah. 

[00:30:14] Toliy: I'm like- 

[00:30:14] Eldar: What? 

[00:30:15] Toliy: Yeah 

[00:30:15] Eldar: Because he's a lawyer? Farida still wants- Like- ... Aldo to be- Yeah, yeah ... a lawyer or a doctor. Yeah. Wait a second. She actually told me this today. Yeah. I was watching the Fu- No ... Fullilove trial. No. Right? I was watching the Fullilove trial. She goes, "Well, it seems like you really like, uh, like, this stuff, so maybe you should just be a lawyer."

[00:30:31] Katherine: So- I can't believe she's still trying that. The fuck? She's tried it for decades. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:30:36] Toliy: Like, there, there, there's, there's just, like, things that, for example, our parents, like, respect. "Oh, he's a stockbroker," for example. Yeah, yeah. Like, in their minds, that was, like- Yeah ... the, like... That's also, again, like that, when that movie came out, Wolf of Wall Street.

[00:30:49] Yeah. There's a large group of, like, I don't know, prob- probably more, like, you know- Uh, y- like middle-aged and young men- Yeah ... who saw the lifestyle, who saw what was happening- Yeah ... and they're in awe of it. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. Doing this, having that. Yeah. You know, doing all of these things, living this kind of life.

[00:31:05] Yeah. And they're almost like, that, that movie to me was like for ex- for example, like so big because like a lot of these people, they almost wish that like th- this, this was them. Yeah. And part of it is because like, well, not, part of it, the, the big driver is that they're not actually doing what they're happy with.

[00:31:22] Mm-hmm. So when they see it in the movies, to them it's like they like it so much because it's like it's, it, it's what they could never do or they feel like they can't ever do or like they're just not happy with what, what, what their situation is in. Yeah. Right? Where like some people who had their ideal scenario and they were like truly happy, they would be like, "Yo, like

[00:31:41] Like they, they- Mm-hmm ... wouldn't think not one, like, like not one thing about this. They would be like, "All right," like- Yeah ... you know, like, "This guy's a loser." 

[00:31:48] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:48] Toliy: You know, actually. Yeah. Right? But like to have that kind of attitude, you have to be like, um, like as they say, you have to be him or you have to be her, you know?

[00:31:59] Yeah. Like in, in a society. And, um, yeah, I feel like in most of these so- social settings, people are trying to, uh, fit in a persona that others value. So- And they, and, and, and they usually like fall flat on their face, or they, or they have to pretend and they have to lie and they have to- Yeah ... you know? And- Like do, do those kinds of things.

[00:32:22] Eldar: And the crazy thing is, the, the craziest thing about this whole thing is, is the fact that Catherine actually is physically benefiting, but is un- unable to kind of tap i- into that. Like you said, she d- she's not getting enough of it in order to then lead with it. 

[00:32:37] Mike: Mm. 

[00:32:38] Toliy: Well, she might not even be physically benefiting fully from it.

[00:32:42] Y- you might be right. Well, like for example, like if you're saying she can't sleep well. That's true. Right? Yes. Like if you told anyone that, like, "Hey, you don't have to go to work- Yeah " ... but you're to get that sleep." Yeah. They'd be like , you know? Yeah. Like my, my, my mom always says the same thing. She al- she always like, "Ah, wish I could stay home tomorrow," you know?

[00:32:58] "I just wanna stay in and sleep." Sleep, yeah. You know? Mm. Or like this. Yeah. And I'm like, "Ma, on the weekends wake up at 5:00 in the morning." Yeah. 'Cause what, what- Yeah, shut up. No, but- You can't sleep ... but that's- Yeah ... that's like gen- Right ... like 

[00:33:07] Katherine: that, that's like a typical overwhelmed person that just, I, I, I used to feel like that all the time- Yeah

[00:33:13] when I was working. 

[00:33:14] Toliy: Yeah, so like if you don't have to go to work and wake up at a certain time or do things- Yeah ... you should like, like you know like in the movies when they like, you know, they're in like the, uh, like the, the, the bedroom with like, you know, blackout shades, so they kind of like, like it's like almost like in the cartoons.

[00:33:28] Like the music starts playing and they're like- Yeah ... stretching and- Yeah ... like everything is just like this like peaceful, amazing like kinda thing. Like Archie and Penny. Yeah, like when you just wake up to, to like you're just stretching. You're just like- Yeah ... "Uh, all right," you know? Yeah. "I guess I'll wake up," you know?

[00:33:41] Yeah. "Let's go make some coffee." You know, like that. Yeah. Like people obviously dream of these kinds of scenarios. Mm-hmm. Right? Ver- versus like- You know, like their, you know, their, their significant other like, you know, yelling from the stairs like, "Wake the fuck up," you know, "Uh, Arch is hungry," or something.

[00:33:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like if, if, if they have- Going crazy ... that kind of like relationship where it's like- ... "Yo, wake up." Yeah. "Do this. Feed the dog." Or like- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... they, they have a bunch of kids running around- Yeah ... and they're like- Everything's chaotic ... everything's chaotic. It's chaos. Right? Chaos. And you have to right away wake up into this like- Yeah

[00:34:11] chaotic like, you know- Yeah ... sh- shithouse almost. Shit storm. You know? Yeah. So like, um, yeah, like if you have different, you have to hone into that, and you have to like actually enjoy that, and yeah, like good sleep and like feeling good pretty much, you know, every single day. Should I, should I 

[00:34:28] Eldar: manufacture this like this, um, like shithouse kind of-

[00:34:31] environment for Katherine in order to, for her to kinda like- Should I trick her into it? What? Like trick her into the chaos. Trick her? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. It might help. I, I didn't 

[00:34:44] Katherine: understand. Can... I don't understand. Explain that. 

[00:34:49] Eldar: Well, because he said like a lot of people just yearn for this like, uh, moment of peace.

[00:34:55] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:55] Eldar: You know what I... Because they have all this shit going on, so like when they do get to sleep, for example, maybe they can't sleep or whatever it is. Mm-hmm. But for a person like you who actually has the opportunity for peace- That's a paradox ... it's a paradox. Yeah. It's a paradox. Like you can... It's in front of you.

[00:35:10] You know- You can't touch it ... an 

[00:35:10] Katherine: outsider might look at me and like, "Oh my God, that probably ha- that girl has zero stress. You probably- Yeah ... they- 100%. Well, that's why like y- y- no one really knows, you know? Yeah. But, uh- That's, that's sometimes not the case ... I had 

[00:35:21] Mike: a, I had a, I had a thought like that, that what Kat's talking about, that like, uh, m- sleep thing.

[00:35:28] Mm-hmm. Right? I feel like it's like, um, maybe cognitive dissonance in a way where or maybe it's, uh, when you kinda know what you should be doing, but by not doing the things that you know you should be doing, you're causing yourself stress, and therefore you can't sleep. It's like, uh- Mm ... feels like that, you know?

[00:35:49] Sometimes I think about it in that sense. I don't know. What do you guys think about that? Does that make sense? 

[00:35:56] Eldar: No, actually, I, I- No ... no, actually- Yeah, that makes 

[00:35:57] Katherine: sense. Like I mean, I, I think I get what you're saying. I actually don't 

[00:35:59] Eldar: think that's what's happening. I think that... I'm not sure if she's processing it that way where it's like it's a, on a daily basis she has a cognitive dissonance situation.

[00:36:06] No, she not consciously 

[00:36:06] Mike: knows- 

[00:36:07] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:36:07] Mike: this, but because she's had the moments of clarity- 

[00:36:10] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:36:10] Mike: and she, like you haven't acted upon those things- Yeah ... that you know you need to do. Yeah. Right? To actually improve the quality of your life. 

[00:36:17] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:36:18] Mike: You can't sleep because you know the answer's right there. You know what's, that you need to take it.

[00:36:23] But you don't do it. But you don't do it. You have a constant turmoil because- 

[00:36:27] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:36:28] Mike: because Kat's obviously been, you know, you guys been on this for a long time. You had many conversations and- Yeah ... you know, she's on this, uh, this, uh, development journey- Yeah ... you know, for, for, for herself, and she's uncovering a lot of things.

[00:36:42] But if you don't act upon them- 

[00:36:43] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:36:44] Mike: but you obviously have experienced like moments of clarity- You're constantly processing this, like, tug of war between what the right thing to do and the thing that you do. Mm-hmm. Hmm. That's like- Yeah ... and that is gonna give you crazy turmoil. 

[00:36:58] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:36:59] Mike: Are you having that, actually?

[00:37:00] Katherine: I do. 

[00:37:01] Mike: You do have this? 

[00:37:02] Katherine: I do have that. 

[00:37:02] Eldar: Oh, okay. 

[00:37:04] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:37:04] Eldar: Yeah. Well, that's a good thing, no? I think that if there's a fight- Yeah ... at least there is a person who's constantly- Mm-hmm ... in a tug and pull. Like, 

[00:37:11] Katherine: I'm, I'm, I'm- Versus a person who's- ... in turmoil all the time. 

[00:37:14] Toliy: The, the issue- The thing- ... is that if the turmoil, I think, if, if it's rooted in, like, um, trauma- 

[00:37:19] Eldar: Mm-hmm

[00:37:20] Toliy: I think it's very difficult to consciously fight it. Because it, it's like, it's, it, it, it's things that, um, like in, in the anxiety world, for, for, for example, just give that example, there's things that, um, they make no sense at all. Like, they're so illogical and so stupid- Mm-hmm ... yet you still suffer with them, that it's very difficult to battle in the con- in, in the conscious mind.

[00:37:47] Hmm. And if they're rooted in those kinds of places, those traumatic places, you actually set up your whole day to avoid ever having to bring this thing out to light. Because it, it makes so m- like, it makes so little sense that, like, you can't even fight it almost. Because, like, it, yeah, it, it, it, it's almost, like, where it could be, like, so dumb and makes- Mm

[00:38:09] so little sense that, like, you're almost, like, puzzled yourself as to why you even, like, have it. 

[00:38:16] Eldar: So what 

[00:38:17] Toliy: do you do? You, you 

[00:38:17] Eldar: structure your whole day in order to 

[00:38:19] Toliy: avoid it, or- You, you, you, you unconsciously structure your day- Uh-huh ... to avoid it. To avoid thinking about it, or- To a- to a- yeah, to avoid bringing it up.

[00:38:27] Bringing it up. Yeah. But, but that's, like, with anxiety specifically? That, that, that, that's, I, I think, and, like, um, I don't know if I wanna say all, but right now I'm feeling all, um, traumatic type of, um- Mm ... responses or, like, feelings. Yeah. Right? Like, for example, um, feeling of, like, abandonment, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:38:47] Like, someone's just gonna drop, drop you and just, like, abandon you, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like, um, I mean, I've had that at times. Mm-hmm. Right? And, like, it could, it, it could happen from, like, a traumatic response at, like, hey, like, everyone's just gonna, like, leave you and ban you and that's it. 

[00:39:01] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:02] Toliy: But, like, if you bring that to life, it's like, like it's such a stupid thing.

[00:39:06] Like, what are you even saying? Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So to confront yourself with that kind of s- ridiculous thought- 

[00:39:12] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:39:13] Toliy: it, it's, it's so difficult and it's so, like, um- So you avoid it? Yeah. It's so per- perplexing that, like, you, you get into the habit of, you, y- you're not conscious about this. It's, it's an unconscious response.

[00:39:26] It's in the background. Yes. And then it goes into habit. Mm-hmm. Now, maybe it was conscious at some points, but then it just goes into- Oh, shit ... an automated pr- processy. Mm-hmm. Because it's, it's such a ridiculous thing. And, and people have this, yeah, with, like, abandonment- Uh, anxiety, for example- Mm-hmm ... um, like fear of failure.

[00:39:46] Like these like traumatic things that make absolutely no sense if you were to bring them up and share them with some- some- somebody else. But you're still fighting the battle inside- Yes ... subconsciously. Because you almost can't muster up the energy to actually like, like- Address them ... bring this like ugly thing, this thing that's so stupid and so ugly out into the world- Mm-hmm

[00:40:04] and, and like present it, you know? But which is the 

[00:40:06] Eldar: answer, actually. 

[00:40:07] Toliy: Yes. 

[00:40:07] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:08] Toliy: Yes. And but the, the d- the difficulty is that you only have small pockets of ability time- Mm-hmm ... where you can actually handle this without like crazy exhaustion and like crazy pain. Yeah. So you do it in very small amounts.

[00:40:19] Mm. But the issue is that be- because of this, you don't take care of yourself enough, because the, the, the antidote is when you actually take care of yourself- Mm-hmm ... and you actually do those things that are good for you, and you actually, you know, feel physically and mentally well, you actually then have the energy and capacity to- To tell them to fuck off

[00:40:37] to tackle these things. 

[00:40:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:40:38] Toliy: But because they, they, they, they almost, they, they hold you hostage. 

[00:40:42] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:40:43] Toliy: You know? Yeah. Like, when I couldn't sleep, like I'm just being held hostage. Mm. And every time I would tell you guys about this- Mm ... like you look at me as like I'm retard, and we can go in circles and talk about the same thing.

[00:40:55] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:55] Toliy: And after a certain point, yeah, I mean, like when, when someone else is telling me this stuff, I'll, I view them the same way. Like- Yeah ... like you make no sense. Yeah. You have no argument. Yeah. Right? And we're just talking about the same thing, and like, like why don't you get it? And then to me, I got to a place where I'm like also like, yeah, like how can I not get it?

[00:41:12] Mm-hmm. It's so stupid, and there's not one argument that I can give you right now as to what I'm feeling at that time makes sense. 

[00:41:19] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:41:20] Toliy: I can't, because it's so stupid. Yeah. Yeah. But to actually face that, and to bring that out, and to like kill that like, um, be- because it's usually like that type, that, that part of you has like a connection to maybe you at like a younger age, or you with someone else in your family.

[00:41:36] Sentimental shit. Sentimental things, right? Mm-hmm. And, um, getting rid of those things is an actual like sui- suicide e- e- like, like there's an actual death that happens, and that part of you that's connected to it is not willing to- To let it go ... to 

[00:41:53] Eldar: let it go. You're talking about attachment. See? Mm. Talking about attachments.

[00:42:00] Somehow- Mm ... we've attached ourselves to these things, maybe back in the day, right? A long time ago. Yeah. And now they're playing these mind tricks on us. 

[00:42:10] Mike: Well, yeah- Through forms and- ... it's like unresolved- 

[00:42:11] Eldar: Un- unresolved things, right? Unresolved stuff, yeah. Where like for example, even the small little interaction that Catherine was having with this outing that she, she, she went to, right?

[00:42:20] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because maybe she's attached herself to say that, "Oh, a, a career is important," for example. Yeah. Yeah, like 

[00:42:26] Toliy: for example. That, that example, right? Yeah. Im- im- imagine Cat had to go and tell that to like 20 people. 

[00:42:32] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:33] Toliy: Right? Yeah. Saying that, or, or like a, a, a- Like, I don't know, like, and like may, may, maybe not that exactly, but like anything where like she couldn't be herself or like let's say like the neighbor thing, right?

[00:42:45] Where like, you know- Mm-hmm ... like, like, you know, I don't know if she struggles to say hi to them or something like that, right? Yeah. Tell that, that like, "Hey, like this happened," and it was like a little bit of a fearful situation. Go tell that to 20 people. Mm-hmm. How would that person feel? Like, uh, how would they feel and how would everybody else feel about them?

[00:43:02] Silly. Silly, right? Yeah. They would even struggle to like say it almost, right? Yeah. Like, it would be hard to start telling people that. Yeah. But then instead, tell 20 people that like, yeah, you were at a safari and a tiger attacked you. Mm-hmm. Everybody would be like, "Oh, my God. That must have been so scary," right?

[00:43:18] Mm-hmm. Because like in that kind of thing, it's so blatantly like it's societally agreed upon as like this is a scary thing- Mm-hmm ... and we all agree upon this, right? Yeah. For example. Yeah. And there's no weird reaction, and you wouldn't be scared to like be judge of like... Some- someone's gonna be like, "Oh- That's a real experience

[00:43:33] what are you, a pussy, man? You were just attacked by a tiger." Yeah. "Like, who cares? Just like kick him off" or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No one, no one's gonna say that. Yeah, you said a very, um- Yes ... agreeable thing. Yes, but when you share those traumatic like experiences you have or the way- ways of doing things and thinking about this- 

[00:43:48] Eldar: Mm-hmm

[00:43:49] Toliy: instead of you talking about that tiger, you're actually telling someone that, like, "Hey, like a bird flew by me and it was so scary. I ran into the house and I- Mm-hmm ... went in my closet and I hid for 10 hours." 

[00:43:59] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:43:59] Toliy: Like, that's what it sounds like. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where you then sh- like shell up- Mm-hmm

[00:44:04] and you avoid that at all costs because how, how hard is it to tell pe- to tell someone that kind of story- Yeah ... and be 

[00:44:09] Eldar: serious about it? That's why therapy is important. That's why therapy exists. 

[00:44:13] Toliy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:44:13] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:44:16] Toliy: So yeah. Yeah, yeah, 'cause in those traumatic things or anxiety related things, yeah, like you gotta tell people that there's a purple dinosaur right there.

[00:44:24] It's very difficult to like- Yeah, that's true. 

[00:44:26] Katherine: But I think, yeah, that's why therapy's so valuable. Like, you do need that. 

[00:44:30] Eldar: Yeah. You do need to work through those things- So you can come out, yeah ... so 

[00:44:32] Katherine: that you can- 

[00:44:34] Eldar: Yeah ... hopefully then- Go into the world, into the real world ... make friends. Yeah ... and be able to then express yourself in such a way where it's- 

[00:44:39] Katherine: Yeah, it's true.

[00:44:40] Good. 

[00:44:43] Eldar: Yeah, all right. Well, what advice do you give these people? Yeah, just- Everyone. 

[00:44:51] Katherine: We have to- Yeah ... make it, like, you know- 

[00:44:54] Eldar: Oh, we don't have to ... make it a complete circle. We don't have to. We can make it a one end. 

[00:44:59] Katherine: Well, it, the topic is about this, so- It is ... if there are suggest- It is, but we don't have to

[00:45:04] suggestions or insights- Yes, 

[00:45:06] Eldar: but we don't have to ... then 

[00:45:06] Katherine: those are helpful. 

[00:45:07] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:45:08] Mike: You know. So suggestions- If we can ... insights for what? 

[00:45:10] Eldar: Like, what, around what? Well, we just identify, right? Like- Yeah ... Catherine could be in, in a setting where- Mm-hmm ... all those attachments, all those things, all those traumas- Mm-hmm

[00:45:17] right, held her back, hold her back from actually then, uh, let's just say even, uh, speaking truthfully or being honest. 

[00:45:25] Katherine: Mm-hmm. Fear of rejection. 

[00:45:27] Eldar: Well, I think, yeah- Right? Because sh- fear of rejection is a big thing. She's been rejected maybe some time ago- Mm-hmm ... and she's like, oh, like you said, you, you were fear of competition, right?

[00:45:35] Yeah. Now you can't compete or whatever. Guess what? You can't get in the same way. I used to 

[00:45:38] Katherine: be, like, also, like, anti-competition growing up- Mm-hmm. Yeah ... because of, I think it's, comes from the same thing. 

[00:45:45] Eldar: Yeah. I agree. And it's, it's, 

[00:45:46] Katherine: I think maybe for me it was easier to, like, avoid competition- Mm-hmm ... 'cause, like, I'm not sporty, I'm not- Mm-hmm

[00:45:52] you know- Yeah ... in, in sports, but yeah. 

[00:45:57] Eldar: Maybe that's next thing you can try. Jump into some kind of sport, some kind of- Mm ... activity where you actually are going face to face in a competitive nature where maybe a little bit of shit-talking is involved. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Uh, where there's a little bit of static because you're trying to beat somebody.

[00:46:13] Mm-hmm. You're trying to win. Yeah. Right? I don't know. Maybe some kind of, like, you know, e- Competitive interior design ... competitive... Competitive interior design, 

[00:46:24] Mike: I like that. What? What's so funny? No, there is that. She watches show- That is, uh, one of- She watches those shows. She's about interior design. Yeah. I was just making a joke.

[00:46:30] No, no. There actually is- There's a competition ... a show that I love on HGTV- Yeah ... where 

[00:46:34] Katherine: it takes some of the, some of the designers and they have a competition. Oh, sick. Yeah. Yeah. See? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's one of my favorite shows as well. Yeah, maybe, 

[00:46:42] Eldar: maybe it could be, uh, one of those things where it can be healthy for you-

[00:46:45] to be able to see. I didn't 

[00:46:46] Katherine: get it right away. Yeah. I was like, "Wait, what? What does he mean?" 

[00:46:49] Eldar: It was a joke. And 

[00:46:50] Katherine: then you laughed right away, and I was like, "Oh, it's probably an inside joke that I don't know about." Yeah. About 

[00:46:54] Eldar: you. See? Yeah. I 

[00:46:55] Katherine: need to process that one. Yeah, 

[00:46:57] Eldar: you have to process, "Oh, wait, they're making fun of me."

[00:46:59] "Oh no, they're ganging up a- against me. Oh, no." No, 

[00:47:03] Katherine: it wasn't like that, but it was just like- Yeah ... okay, I don't get it. 

[00:47:05] Eldar: Yeah. But you know that space really well. Yes. 

[00:47:08] Katherine: Yeah. Both 

[00:47:09] Eldar: spaces. You're very familiar with the paranoid mind, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. And obviously, like I said, we started with the social interactions, we g- especially meeting new people.

[00:47:21] Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:22] Right? I think that especially when we meet new people- Mm-hmm ... because we're not sure what the outcomes are gonna be- 

[00:47:27] Mm-hmm ... 

[00:47:28] because, uh, if we're not sure I most likely would think that, um, you're not the leader in that space- Mm-hmm ... right, where you can lead the conversation to be the way you want it to be.

[00:47:39] Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:39] Therefore, you kind of like a little bit maybe on edge, like, "Oh, where are we going with this?" So yeah, you kinda just hold back and wait until wherever it goes and then you kinda like, you just bait- 

[00:47:51] Mm ... 

[00:47:52] for someone else, you know? Yeah. To lead you into a place where you, whether you like it or not, you're just gonna follow.

[00:47:59] Right? Either you participate or you fall back. Yeah. 

[00:48:03] Toliy: But- You can see, like, part of being someone that's, like, an actual, like, leader, I think it's you, you need to, um, be able to identify when it's actually important for you to follow as well, and maybe be patient and maybe like- I agree ... like, you know, to be, to be able to have those kinds of abilities.

[00:48:20] But yeah, I think that, like, what you're tasking people is, um, a very, very difficult thing because to actually be able to drive that conversation and like... Yeah, like, say, like, your spiel and, like, to, to- Yeah ... to behave in that kind of way, yeah, you, you definitely have to be pretty sure. Or, uh, like, I think a lot of people get away with it in social settings where, like, everyone's not really known by just kind of faking through it and never being challenged.

[00:48:49] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:48:49] Toliy: You know? Yeah. Some people would just start talking about, like, financial things and then no one's gonna be like, "Oh, hey, that's actually not true." 

[00:48:55] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:55] Toliy: Like, you don't hear that. 

[00:48:57] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:48:57] Toliy: You know? Yeah. It's just gonna be people, you know- Bouncing ... shooting the shit, they call it, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, just, like, talking about these random things that just, like- Yeah

[00:49:05] it's, like, whatever, and then those people all go home, and then, like, I don't know, they talk to someone else and be like, "Yeah, what the fuck was Barry talking about?" Then they talk shit to, to their- Yeah ... yeah, to their partner. Yeah, then they start talking shit. Yeah. Like, "Hey," like, "this guy was just showing off the whole time," or, like, this- Yeah

[00:49:17] that. But in that moment- In the moment ... they didn't say shit ... sh- didn't say a word. Yeah. It's true. They're, they're gonna be like, "Barry, how long are you gonna, uh, yap about your lack of knowledge on finance?" Yeah. Like, enough. Yeah, enough. Come on, Barry. Yeah. You know? Right. Yeah. Um, like, Julius is probably, like, you know, a king in, uh, ding- ding-a-ling in this small talk, uh- Mm-hmm.

[00:49:36] Yeah, 

[00:49:36] Eldar: arena ... 

[00:49:37] Toliy: field. Uh- Mm-hmm ... arena. Yeah. He could just go into anything and talk about anything. 

[00:49:40] Eldar: Yeah. You know? But actually Julius is very good at then, like, pretending that he is an expert- Yes ... in, at all. Mm-hmm. 100%. 

[00:49:47] Toliy: Yeah. 100%. That's why he- Yeah ... he, he enjoys that process. He's a true vampire. 

[00:49:52] Eldar: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:49:53] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:49:53] Eldar: Social 

[00:49:53] Toliy: vampire. Yeah. You know? So yeah, I think that, like, um, um, everyone has had it where, like, they were, like, participating in something and someone ham hogged them in that thing. 

[00:50:07] Eldar: Mm-hmm. And 

[00:50:08] Toliy: I think they all then create traumatic experiences from experiencing that- Mm-hmm ... where, like, they don't wanna feel that way.

[00:50:14] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:15] Toliy: So instead they just kinda- Yeah, if it never gets, if it never gets processed properly- Yes ... absolutely, yes. Yeah. Yes. So then they kinda are gonna wanna save their word for like- Mm-hmm ... hey, when everything's over, everyone's back, and then they just, you know, unload on you. 

[00:50:26] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:50:27] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:50:28] Eldar: It's interesting because, uh, it, it almost seems like everyone obviously craves social interactions, connections, and stuff like that, right?

[00:50:36] Mm-hmm. But, like, who's actually doing it right? Or who's actually getting exactly what they wanted, right? Out of those types of interactions, especially when meeting new people, right? Very, I think, few. Very few. 

[00:50:50] Toliy: Very few, yeah, because I think most people, either they remain quiet and don't say what they wanna say, or they're kind of like- People are, like, they're kind of just mingling, but they're also saying nothing at the same time.

[00:51:02] Yeah. There's like, that's the majority of the crowd. Yeah. Um, and then there's very few that are like- It's, 

[00:51:07] Katherine: it's interesting 'cause I have, like, I feel like I have difficulty with both situ- s- scenarios, right? 

[00:51:13] Toliy: Yeah, because like- Sometimes small talk- ... you don't wanna be disingenuous- Yeah ... and also, like, talk about, like, nothing.

[00:51:17] You clearly don't enjoy that. Yeah. But then you also, yeah, are like, may- maybe- But not everyone 

[00:51:22] Katherine: can dive deep or dive deep into a topic that you mutually care about or that is gonna be interesting, right? Mm-hmm. So sometimes small talk can be just, you know. 

[00:51:30] Eldar: But I don't think... Uh, I think you're wrong about that.

[00:51:33] Katherine: You know? I think... 

[00:51:33] Eldar: Well, before you say that, Mike, I'm gonna introduce actually an expert that's sitting right here in this room at these types of interactions where he's able to go right in- Mm-hmm ... into the meat and potatoes and hook these people. 

[00:51:46] Mike: Yes. 

[00:51:47] Eldar: I'm very good. Hook, line, and sinker, man. Very sneaky.

[00:51:49] Line and sinker. You know? Yeah. And Mike is actually very good at this kind of stuff because- Yeah, he is. Yeah ... uh, you know, I can be a little bit surface, too. You know what I mean? I can go around that little bend for a while. I can troll, and I, I don't have to get close to people. I can be myself, but I don't have to be, like, all that.

[00:52:07] But Mike can really, like, hook someone, right? Into the conversation that he wants to have. 

[00:52:12] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:13] Eldar: Whether they like it or not. So Mike, please. 

[00:52:15] Toliy: Be- and before he shares that- Yeah ... yeah, ju- just so the li- the listeners understand his level of, uh, of, of ability- Uh-huh ... he just has to share one example. Ju- just so they know, like- I know example

[00:52:26] like, yeah. Yeah? Well, yeah. You know, like- You know, you know which one I'm talking about or no? Of course. Oh. Houston's. So you should share it. Of course. No, no. No, no, no. You have to share it. Uh-huh. Right? But thi- this will just dis- display, like... Like, you can't say that, like, like, like, you know when they announce somebody on their podcast or someone who's, like, good at something, um, they're like eight-time all-star.

[00:52:44] Oh, yeah. You know? Yeah. Held highest three-point percentage from 19 years this and that. Okay. So create one 

[00:52:48] Katherine: for Mike right now. Well, well, no, like, there's, there's- Before he speaks. Create one. No, no, no ... 

[00:52:51] Mike: no, Mike knows- You know this one? Yeah. This one right here. You know this one. I already love this one. And you don't know which one you're talking about?

[00:52:55] You, you heard. Yeah, like- You know it ... like, c- 

[00:52:56] Eldar: come, come on. Houston's. Houston's. So create one for Mike. I mean, you had a lot of, uh, sh- uh, sh- um, escapades in Houston. I did have a lot of escapades. Yeah, he has. But this one 

[00:53:04] Mike: in particular. This is the one in particular. Yeah. His favorite. I don't remember this.

[00:53:06] This was already after my escapades were done, and I would, like, frequent there, like, once in a while. Mm. Really? 

[00:53:12] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:53:12] Eldar: Oh, yeah. I do remember something about- Right? Speaking of Houston- ... you helping somebody with a relationship. Wait, wait, wait, wait, 

[00:53:16] Toliy: wait, wait, wait. Okay, go ahead. Mike, Mike has to share, like, like, you know- This is the thing

[00:53:19] summarized version of the story. 

[00:53:20] Mike: Yeah. S- yeah, summarized version. So I went to Houston's. Uh-huh. Um, I sat at the bar, and I sat next to a guy. We started having drinks. Mm-hmm. Uh, long story short, he started, like, crying on my shoulder. Yeah. You know? Wow. Actually crying? Oh, yeah, he was crying. Yeah. Yeah. He was crying.

[00:53:38] Yeah. Yeah. Because we had this conversation. Yeah. He was going through some stuff. Yeah. He was getting divorced, you know, with the kids, the situation with the kids. You got the whole shebang from him. I got the whole shebang, and- Yeah ... eventually, yeah, he started crying. Yeah. He became very emotional. Mm. Yeah.

[00:53:50] So tell us, how, how do you have this gift, Mike? 

[00:53:52] Eldar: I don't know Get straight to the point I don't know how or why, but- But because this happens all the time, right? But what, what I will... Yeah, sorry. Without exaggeration. Yeah. Without exaggeration, this happens all the time, where it's like- Yeah ... Mike met somebody, and then I'm meeting them through Mike, and I'm like, we're already picking up where, like, the conversation was left off and left...

[00:54:08] And usually it's about something more deep. Mm-hmm. It's about a philosophical problem- Yeah ... psychological issue, and it's very easy to pick off. It's like I already know the person because Mike already vetted 

[00:54:18] them. Mm-hmm. 

[00:54:19] Yeah, Mike. 

[00:54:20] Toliy: What do, what do you think happens? Like, they, like, you know, like the Houston's waiter brings, like, the appetizer.

[00:54:23] Like, "Hey, here's your Brussels sprouts," and Mike turns to the person. He's like, "What do you think about 

[00:54:28] Mike: respect?" Yeah, 

[00:54:30] you're right. No, I think, actually thinking about it- Yeah. Okay ... because you guys mentioned it. Yeah. And I think it's, uh, I think it's maybe, like, m- I don't know if this is where it's coming from, but my n- initial instinct was, like, um, the, the UFC thing, right?

[00:54:47] Mm. Like, I'm, I, I mean, I'm, I guess I'm changing now. I was never a big UFC fight fan. 

[00:54:54] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:54:54] Mike: But I was always a big UFC, or I'm a big story guy. Mm-hmm. I love the background stories. Okay. Right? And that's like my hook for myself- Mm-hmm ... where I really get into it, where I get involved, where I'm interested, I'm fascinated.

[00:55:07] I wanna understand. I wanna cheer for somebody, right? So I think, um, maybe it's that ability that I can find what the person is interested in. 

[00:55:19] Eldar: Their story. 

[00:55:19] Mike: Their story. 

[00:55:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:55:21] Mike: But I don't come in with a, like a therapist knocking on the door. I come in like, "Oh, you like UFC?" 

[00:55:25] Eldar: Mm-hmm. "

[00:55:26] Mike: I like UFC too." Yeah. And then I, naturally I wanna understand what they think about certain things that are not necessarily to do with fighting, but with the people's mentalities, for example- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

[00:55:36] that, like, uh, that are in the UFC. So you make them fill out, 

[00:55:40] Toliy: like, a life intake form. Hey, uh, right here just, uh, fil- if you don't mind, fill out all your traumas. 

[00:55:47] Eldar: I still don't understand how you, how you get into the deep conversations so quickly. Well, the thing is, I come in- I, 

[00:55:52] Katherine: I, I think I know it. Okay, go ahead.

[00:55:53] Okay. Tell me what you guys think about this. I could be totally wrong. I think it's Mike's demeanor. Mike, um, he tends to be funny. Uh, he, when he, uh, uh, interacts with people, he, he- He comes off as a person that doesn't take things, like, too seriously. He can joke around. He can, like, shoot the shit. Yeah, but these 

[00:56:12] Eldar: conversations are very serious.

[00:56:14] Katherine: I know, but the way he, he, he can hook people, I think- So you're saying he's inviting ... is because he's inviting. Mm-hmm. He- Mike shows genuine interest when he, like, asks people questions or something's going on. He shows interest. He listens. Mm-hmm. But his demeanor is, it, it... He doesn't come off like a serious or- Oh

[00:56:32] uptight person. Okay. He's coming off as a very friendly manner- Mm-hmm ... funny guy, you know- Mm-hmm ... guy that can shoot the shit. Maybe he 

[00:56:38] Toliy: starts off, like, inappropriate and then he goes right away into the, uh, like- Inappropriate. Yeah ... like, yeah. He l- he lowers the guard by first starting it- I lower the guard, yeah.

[00:56:44] For sure ... yeah. Yeah. And then he, and then he's like, "What do you think about respect?" You know? Yeah. Yeah. I th- I think it 

[00:56:48] Katherine: comes. It c- it co- eventually, as, as you start actually then maybe you start spending more time with Mike or hanging out with Mike, um, then when your guard is down and you trust or you feel comfortable, like, maybe it will get more serious.

[00:57:02] It tends to be maybe- And they will be comfortable getting serious ... where he's like, "Hey, we were just 

[00:57:05] Toliy: talking about boobs and cars, you know- Yeah ... now we're talking about- You know? Yeah ... the, the, this and that. Like, I could see Mike- 

[00:57:09] Katherine: You know? ... talking about, you know, well, before Mike was really into cars and, like- 

[00:57:13] Toliy: Yeah

[00:57:13] Katherine: uh, coffee, cigarettes, you know. Like, you're just hanging out, having coffee or cigarette with somebody- Yeah ... talking about cars and then before you know it, you're talking about, uh, this, b- th- his divorce or what he's going through- Mm-hmm ... at, at work. I don't know. I could see that happening. Yeah. No, sure, but I think that a lot- So that's, that's my, my angle- I think, 

[00:57:28] Eldar: I think we have to give, uh-

[00:57:29] knowing Mike ... the props where the props is due. And I think a lot of people can shoot the shit, talk a little bit, be funny or whatever, and it takes them a while. Mike does this- No ... at Godspeed. 

[00:57:38] Katherine: No, but he d- yeah. Lightning speed. Godspeed. I'm not taking that from him. Also had one meeting and this guy can be best friend.

[00:57:43] But I think, but I think it's that initially that people are not guarded and, like- Yeah, I think it's the- ... oh, this guy is cool. And then- ... it's the 

[00:57:48] Mike: humor, uh, part for sure, but I think a big thing is I think I'm able to be very b- vulnerable very quick And just by being vulnerable myself- Oh, you open doors

[00:57:57] and I always, like, you probably would, I think you would agree with this, I always like to give real-life examples in any kind of thing- 

[00:58:03] Toliy: Yeah ... 

[00:58:03] Mike: that we're having a conversation about, because I feel it's more relatable. Yeah. So a lot of times, I'm willing- But- ... to share my own examples- Yeah ... not as an, as a strategy.

[00:58:11] It's just naturally how I am. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's not a strategy. I share my own example- Yeah ... and the people are like, "Oh, this guy's a human, too. Let me cool, let me, like, put the guard down. Like, I can also be vulnerable." Yeah. Like, this is, I create, like, a safe environment. I think that's, I 

[00:58:22] Eldar: think that's what it is.

[00:58:23] I think that's, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you're bringing in your own personal examples- Yeah ... and you're being vulnerable in that interaction- I us- always do. I'm not worried to, like, make myself, like- And it comes very natural to you. Yeah. That's, that's what, that's what it is. Yeah. 

[00:58:32] Katherine: Well, that's huge. Yeah. That's huge.

[00:58:34] You see? Because when you are vulnerable, it allows other people to be vulnerable- Yes. Correct ... and then you can share experiences. That's how you build trust, and, and also, like, connection, so- Yeah ... that makes total sense. 

[00:58:43] Eldar: And then you throw a hot mil- milo at them. 

[00:58:48] Katherine: Hey, 

[00:58:48] Eldar: what's 

[00:58:49] Katherine: your problem? Our listeners have no idea what's going on.

[00:58:51] All right, well, if you listened 

[00:58:52] Eldar: to our previous episode- The milo episode ... I explained what milo was. Yeah. It's a Colombian drink. It's like hot chocolate. It, 

[00:58:58] Katherine: it's just a chocolate powdered- It's, 

[00:58:59] Eldar: it's now Mike's favorite ... thing. Wait, but it's 

[00:59:01] Toliy: not 

[00:59:01] Eldar: a 

[00:59:01] Toliy: Colombian 

[00:59:01] Eldar: drink, right? It, no, it's just- Apparently ... 

[00:59:03] Katherine: really popular in Colombia- Yeah

[00:59:04] but apparently, it's, it's, it's in other places. 

[00:59:06] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. In 

[00:59:07] Katherine: the Caribbean- Yeah ... and stuff like that, so. So- I don't know if it's Colombian. 

[00:59:10] Eldar: So there are some strategies maybe that c- Mike can give you, uh, regarding these types of things. Yeah. Because i- if, if that's the kind of interactions that you want- Uh-huh

[00:59:18] and I think that, I personally think that cutting to the chase and being able to just- Yeah ... cut through the bullshit, like, I don't wanna fucking know your nonsense, you know what I mean? Like, uh- Yeah ... what you make, how many kids you have, and, like, all that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Why? Like, 

[00:59:30] Katherine: I, I'm the same way. I don't even wanna know your name- I actually don't- To be honest

[00:59:33] care about those things. 'Cause I don't remember anybody's name. Yeah. Yeah. But if there's something that we have in common, like, that, that's, that's what I care about. And that, that, that's, 

[00:59:41] Mike: that was, that's why, uh, like, before, I, I, I was gonna say something, and you said, "Hold on"- Yeah ... "before I gonna give you an expert."

[00:59:48] And I think- Yeah ... that's, that's what I was gonna challenge Kat about- Mm-hmm ... is that actually, every single person, this is gonna generalize everybody- Yes ... has something in common. I agree. We're all human. Yeah. We're all going through human moments. You know, I generalize pe- people all the fucking time. But this is a good one.

[01:00:04] This is a good 

[01:00:05] Eldar: one. Wow, Toliy. Toliy. You know? What, what's okay to- Toliy, Toliy, you sound really- Dementor ... dementor, yeah. Yeah, but you sound really a- a- aggy right now. You know? Yeah, but, yeah, but Mike's saying a very positive thing right now. 

[01:00:13] Katherine: And so am I. 

[01:00:14] Eldar: All right, fine. 

[01:00:15] Katherine: No, before that wasn't positive. That wasn't very- What?

[01:00:17] It wasn't positive. Yeah. I think- You wanna send everybody back to their country ... I think, 

[01:00:20] Mike: I think, uh, that's the, that's the big kicker. Yeah. I understand that. 

[01:00:24] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:00:25] Mike: But, but again- And I, I believe that ... it's, comes natural to you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right? 

[01:00:28] Eldar: You, you just kinda, like, you cut through the chase- Mm-hmm ... and you know that this binds us all, and you find that thread every single time.

[01:00:35] Yeah. Yeah. Very effortlessly. Well, because I know, 

[01:00:37] Mike: yeah, I know. I don't know, like You always had it, Mike Always since you've known me, right? Bro, we met and we- No, 

[01:00:43] Eldar: you've always been like that ... we met and we connected like this. Yeah. And like, you just went to, like, stop on- Well, there's a 

[01:00:47] Katherine: reason why Mike, Mike has friends everywhere he goes.

[01:00:50] Yeah. Mike knows people everywhere. He has so many friends. 

[01:00:52] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:00:52] Katherine: Because th- th, you know, being like that leads obviously to having friends. Yeah, yeah. Like, you, 

[01:00:57] Mike: you're, you're- That's funny ... you're a friendly person. I have a, like, you know, I've been going to the Colombian spot recently. Of course you have.

[01:01:02] Obviously. Yeah. And I have friends there now. They all know him. Everyone knows him. Yeah. And the funny thing is, like, when we, uh, we, like I had a couple conversations with, with the people that work there. Yeah. And, like- In Spanish. 

[01:01:12] Well, yeah. Yes. Yes. In, in Spanish, yeah. Mike is low-key fluent. Half, 

[01:01:18] yeah. Half, uh, half Spanish, half English.

[01:01:20] Okay. But with the one of the guys, he's like, uh, he said, "Hey," like, uh, he's like, "Uh, you're actually a really friendly guy, but you have such a, like, a, um, like, a serious look." I'm like- Right ... "Oh, yeah, that's..." Like, it was, like, a thing. Oh. Where I'm like, "Really? That's funny." Yeah. Because obviously, like- Yeah ... I'm not that serious, but- I'm the friendliest guy in the group

[01:01:38] the people inter- interpret that. Mm-hmm. He interpreted me as very serious. Hmm. You know? Yeah. And I was like, "That's very funny that you would think that, but-" Yeah, it's the opposite ... it's not. Yeah. I just- Yeah. I said, "It's just a Russian thing." Yeah. Yeah. It probably is. Yeah. 

[01:01:50] Katherine: Well, Colombians are, are very friendly in general.

[01:01:52] Are very friendly, yeah. All very smiley and friendly, so maybe- Mm-hmm ... maybe you, you had a serious look. They didn't understand, 

[01:01:57] Mike: like, the serious Russian look. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think, yeah, I think that's what it is. 

[01:02:02] Katherine: It's true. You know, I n- like, comparing how I am now to me, like, a few years ago, I think when I'm, when I feel comfortable, I c- I can be a lot more vulnerable than I ever was before in my life.

[01:02:19] Like- Mm-hmm ... I can ta- I, I love talking about, like, my mental health, like, what I went through, like, why I started therapy. I can talk about, uh, depression and anxiety affects so many people, right? That's right. 

[01:02:30] Everybody. Like, a huge- Everybody, everybody. A huge- Another general bucket ... a huge- Yes, thank you. A 

[01:02:33] Eldar: huge...

[01:02:34] Yes. 

[01:02:34] Katherine: I didn't say 

[01:02:34] Eldar: everyone. Every- It does affect everybody. Everyone came from his mouth. That, that's- It's a fact. Yeah, I think Toliy's right about that. Well, I, I don't know the numbers- 

[01:02:42] Katherine: Anxiety and depression, yeah ... but I can say that, uh- 

[01:02:43] Eldar: Those are like your shadows ... a lot, a lot of the people- Like, you, everyone has a shadow Yeah.

[01:02:46] Everyone has anxiety. Yeah, people have- Yeah ... you know, their struggles, right? They're just different levels, obviously. But I 

[01:02:49] Katherine: can, you know, I, I can talk about this all day, as soon as, you know, like, if someone is open- Mm-hmm ... to talk about it. Yeah. I can talk about it. I can talk about- 

[01:02:56] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[01:02:57] Katherine: a, a lot of the things.

[01:02:59] However, obviously, like, sometimes, like, the environment is not right. Like, if someone is closed off or not willing to have these conversations, then it kinda like- See, 

[01:03:07] Eldar: Mike thinks otherwise ... it doesn't. Everyone, right? Sure. Yes. Yeah. But for 

[01:03:10] Katherine: me, when I find, like, the, the, you know, like, a, you know, for someone that I feel comfortable with, I think I can- What's the vetting process?

[01:03:17] I, I can open- Because 

[01:03:18] Eldar: Mike doesn't have this. He puts everybody into the same category. Everybody is relatable. Everybody can talk about this. But that, yeah, 

[01:03:24] Mike: that's the thing. I generally believe this because- Well, yeah ... I, I, I- You see ... he's a lot more open-minded ... you haven't- 

[01:03:28] Katherine: Yes ... I would say, about others ... no, but, no, it's not that I'm open-minded.

[01:03:31] Mike: I think it's, I actually believe this for a fact. Like, I'm willing to, like, you know, bet whatever on it that- We're all human, I know this for a fact, and I know we're all struggling and suffering with certain, with things 

[01:03:42] Katherine: We're not calling him out 

[01:03:43] Mike: No, I'm, I'm saying it everybody- It's like you say, we're all human

[01:03:45] everyone's generalizing. Yeah. 

[01:03:46] Katherine: I'm just kidding. 

[01:03:47] Mike: And I think that, like, I've learned at least from a, like a young age, that friendship is very important, and friendship, Elder said, is a sheltering tree. If you have any. If you have any. If you 

[01:04:00] Katherine: have any. You know what? Fucked up. I think is a valid point, Mike- Fucked up.

[01:04:04] No, it's true. I think, I think you made a good point, Mike, and I think that it, you know, bringing this to, to, to my, um, ex- example specifically, is I don't know if I've had always, like, the best examples of that, of friendships, you know? Mm-hmm. I do, there's people that have been in my life for a long time that I love, um, but that maybe, like, our friendships, uh, w- you know, maybe lacked a little.

[01:04:30] Maybe- Mm-hmm ... maybe also, and, and I'm not saying on their end, but I'm saying on my end, I think that I have been guarded and maybe not a good communicator, and I think that has affected my relationships- Agreed. And- Mm-hmm ... the quality of my relationships as well. That's right. That's right. So I think that, um, would I like to have friendships like the ones that you have with your friends?

[01:04:51] Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Like, uh, it's, you guys have, like, a gold standard for friendships. I don't think I, I can, I can actually say, like, "Hey, you know, this one friend that I've had since my whole life," like, this is... I, no, like, the, all my friendships, n- not to say they're bad, but, like, you know, I h- have not been maybe- Fruitful

[01:05:13] where I would like for them to be today, just because I think, you know, my, my own self, like, because of what, what I've been able to, to bring or, or have not been able to put in, I think, like, from my own, I think. 

[01:05:26] Toliy: But you need a fire to foran- forge iron. You do need fire to for- forge iron. Mm-hmm, yeah. This is true.

[01:05:32] Katherine: So what do you mean by that? With- Character ... with what I'm saying? A more character. Well, yes, I- Well, that- ... I agree with that ... and, and it's a 

[01:05:38] Toliy: lot of, you need a lot of fights. You need a lot of, uh- Mm. Yeah ... static. You need- I think, I 

[01:05:43] Mike: think, yeah, that's what I was gonna say. Yeah, like- Well, you know what? You, 

[01:05:45] Katherine: you won't get it.

[01:05:46] Last year brought me- Yeah, listen ... three statics. 

[01:05:49] Eldar: No, no. Three. This is good. This is a definitely a good start. And despite the fact that you said, look, uh, despite the fact that we're praising Mike for his ability to kind of attract people into his life- Yeah ... this doesn't mean that all his, those relationships turn into- Yeah, that's what I was 

[01:06:01] Mike: gonna say

[01:06:02] good friendships. 

[01:06:03] Eldar: Yes. Okay? Yeah, but 

[01:06:04] Katherine: nonetheless- That obviously- ... he is, he's not closing off, and he's keeping an open mind. Yeah, no, no, but- This is, but- That's a good thing ... it, I, that is 100% a good thing ... I, I wanna 

[01:06:11] Mike: give honest testimony. Yes. I have a lot of resilience towards pain and being very stupid, and I think in a one way- Oh.

[01:06:17] Yeah ... it is good, obviously, because I never, like, got stuck on like, "Hey, this friend l- let me down- Yeah ... or betrayed me," and I, didn't prevent me from being myself. Mm. Obviously, that's bad. Mm. But the good part is that now I'm learning how to actually have even better- interaction. So I'm still myself, I'm still very vulnerable.

[01:06:36] But- You're keeping that open, open, open, uh, side of you, open-mindedness 

[01:06:40] Eldar: to- Yes ... to be able to invite people into your life. But the way you go about with interaction- I'm setting the boundaries now. Yes. Yeah. The way I 

[01:06:44] Mike: want to- Yeah ... which I never did. So I think part of it is m- like, uh, yes, I definitely made a lot of mistakes.

[01:06:50] I definitely had suffered a lot of pain in this process, but it didn't change who I, like, who I was and- Yeah ... what I valued. Yeah. That's a good thing. So yes, part of it is, is that. 

[01:07:01] Eldar: Yeah. And but, but the first prerequisite to that is to have that ability or develop a little bit of, of the ability that you, that you have naturally- Mm-hmm

[01:07:08] for Catherine to be able to at least go through some people, meet some new people- Yeah ... right? On her terms. 

[01:07:14] Mm-hmm. 

[01:07:15] Right? The, the terms is the part, right? Mm-hmm. Not coming in there with the fake conversations. Mm-hmm. Right? Just the surface level bullshit. Yeah. But we'll cut to the chase like you do.

[01:07:23] Mm-hmm. Right? And then kind of go with the weeding out process. Mm-hmm. That's the next step, obviously, right? Yeah. You have to kind of kiss a bunch of frogs- Mm ... before you get to the, the, the good ones out there- Mm ... obviously. And but I, but I think that there's plenty o- people out there that can be that relatable, but a lot of times I think Mike takes the lead in those conversations, and I think that's very important.

[01:07:44] He drops the lead after a while and allows the other people to ham hog him. Yeah. Yeah. That's his problem. Yeah. That's a different problem, you know? Uh, but taking the lead in order to, um, almost promote yourself, the- your true self- Yeah ... in those conversations is what your priority should be. Yeah. 

[01:08:03] Katherine: I think that, like, for so long, I think that, um, y- I was, I was guarded, maybe, uh, um, having a hard time trusting people too soon.

[01:08:15] Mm-hmm. So I've guarded, maybe close-minded, tru- Yeah ... you know, maybe didn't trust people right away. Maybe protecting myself. 

[01:08:21] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:08:23] Katherine: So, you know, going from that end to, like, now trying to kind of figure out, like, who d- who do I wanna be, like, socially or, like, I just- No, but see- ... even myself. So I think that what, what needs to happen is, like, knowing who you are, right?

[01:08:37] Like, that comes with knowing who you are. But actually, like, instead of, like, entering the conversation, I, like, it's more, like, leading the conversation. 

[01:08:45] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:08:45] Katherine: Right? Yeah. Like leading. Um, I've never innately had that interest really to, like... I, I've never been the most outspoken person in the room. I, I never, like, had, you know...

[01:08:56] It, it's, it's, it's a, like, a new way to- But, but that- ... see it, to look at it ... but that generalization 

[01:09:00] Mike: you made it by yourself, it's not that. I, I'm not, I'm not, like, uh, disagreeing with you, but I think it's not, um, that's not how you naturally were. This is, like, uh, developed through from trauma. Oh, of course.

[01:09:11] Yeah. You know? She's 

[01:09:12] Eldar: a chatty caddy at home, bro. No, I think 

[01:09:14] Toliy: the, the- Are you kidding me? When I'm comfortable, 

[01:09:15] Katherine: I can speak a, I can speak a lot. The, the big 

[01:09:17] Toliy: question is that when, when you said that, like, about trust, w- Mike, like, I mean, before I make another assumption, I guess. Were you, were, were you talking about trusting them?

[01:09:29] Yes. Yeah, yeah. You see, I feel like the, uh, solution here is, like, in the opposite, where I feel like it's not about you needing to, like, um, trust them, but I feel like if you buy into yourself and what you know enough, then, like, like, like you almost... Right, right, right now, I feel like you almost feel the need to, like, trust them so that they either, like, don't do something or that, like- Mm-hmm

[01:09:57] like, you know, like, l- like that thing. Yeah. Right? But if you buy into yourself enough, you don't need that trust from them- That's true ... because you, you actually trust yourself- Mm-hmm ... right? And you buy into yourself. And honestly- And it's like, they can't, like, doubt you ... that should be enough. Yeah. Yes. That trust 

[01:10:12] Katherine: in myself should be enough.

[01:10:13] Toliy: Yes. So then you- Yeah ... don't have to get trust from anyone else- Right ... because, like, they can't, like, they, they can't, like, shoot you down. But I think right now pro- proba- pr- probably- Yeah ... you feel like they can shoot you down, so because of that- Yeah ... you want them to, um, you, you want them to, like, be a particular way or maybe you feel a particular, like, vibe about them- Yeah

[01:10:34] to then share- It's true ... and share what, what you wanna say- Yeah ... so you don't get shot down. I think- Yeah ... I think 

[01:10:39] Katherine: the difficulty now is, like, bridging that gap between- Yeah ... like that old version of myself- Mm-hmm ... and, um, you know, where I wanna be and, and who I wanna become because, uh, yeah, like I, I, I, I like to be vulnerable with people now.

[01:10:54] I like to share more of myself. I, I wasn't like that before. Yeah. One, one, one very- I wanna get to know people ... interesting 

[01:10:59] Toliy: thing I think that's just happening in the world, I mean, like some- somewhat, somewhat in the world right now. Sorry. Um, but I think it's, like, an interesting concept and, I mean, now there's been fol- following, it's, so he'll know which, which I've also been, like, no- noticing.

[01:11:12] And I'm like, not, like, surprised completely, but I'm almost like, wow, he's talking, like, that way. Um, the CEO of GameStop, he's trying to buy eBay. 

[01:11:21] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:11:21] Toliy: Right? Right now. 

[01:11:23] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:11:24] Toliy: That's what's happening. So imagine he's trying to... They're, his company's trying to buy this company. Mm-hmm. And all this guy does is talk crazy shit about the other company- Yeah

[01:11:32] that he's trying to buy. Think about this, right? And there's a board of directors there that have to approve the sale for him to buy it, and all he does is talk shit about it. Yeah. Which is, like, a crazy thing, right? Yeah. 'Cause, like, he's not saying, like, "Buy my..." He's badmouthing it. He wants 

[01:11:46] Katherine: everybody to be off the scent so then he can, so he can buy it.

[01:11:49] Well, n- no, 

[01:11:50] Toliy: no. I'm just kidding. I have no idea what he's doing. No, no, I'm saying, like, what he's doing is, like, some people, I think, would think that he might be kissing ass in this kind of scenario- Mm-hmm ... saying like, "Oh, those people are great people." Yes. "They're respectable." Mm. He's saying, like, yo, that company, he says this, it's being run by losers and morons- Yeah

[01:12:07] and I'm gonna buy it. And thieves. And thieves, and I'm gonna bu- and he calls them losers. I saw this- Yes ... in an interview- Yeah ... on, like, NBC. He's saying- Mm ... yeah, right now it's being run by losers. Wow. And they're, yeah, they're thieves and they're morons. Now I'm gonna buy it, and I'm gonna take it to a crazy new level and take advantage of a lot of the things that they're currently not.

[01:12:27] But he also needs the approval of those people on the board to allow him to buy it in the current- ... form right now. Wow. So the way that he's talking, he's almost like, "Yo- Mm-hmm ... I don't give a fuck what you have to say- Yeah ... or what you..." Thank, yeah. Like, "I'm not gonna kiss your ass to buy this thing." Yeah.

[01:12:41] Right? 

[01:12:41] Yeah. 

[01:12:42] So the attitude that he, he has, like, is, is, like, to me the best one because he's not, like, feeling one way and then kissing ass to those people saying- Right ... you know, "Oh, they're, they're this, they're that." Yeah. He's going the complete opposite way and he's calling it how it is and not giving a fuck.

[01:12:58] Mm. But he's trying to do a $56 billion transaction. So I don- I, like, I never heard anyone talk like this- 

[01:13:05] Yeah ... 

[01:13:06] in this kind of, like- Especially in that realm ... in that kind of realm. Yeah. Yeah. Where it's maybe more PC, like, PC in, in front of the- Professional ... of the camera at least, right? Yeah. Professional, yeah.

[01:13:14] And not just out in the open, but he's literally saying they're losers- Yeah ... and they're morons. Yeah. Which is crazy, right? So I feel like- Mm-hmm ... that, that to me is, like, a good example of someone that, like, he's just like he doesn't give a fuck. Mm-hmm. He's gonna say, say it how he, He sees it. He's gonna say how it feels, and no one can shoot him down, and no one's gonna be like- And no one can tell him otherwise

[01:13:34] yeah, no one's like- Yeah ... "Hey, Ryan, tone it down a little bit." Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like, "Be a little nice to them until this happens." Yeah. He's not doing that. No. So I think that that kind of attitude is great- 

[01:13:42] Yeah ... 

[01:13:42] to, to in, in general have because he's buying in so much on himself and not caring what the response is back.

[01:13:51] Katherine: Mm. Yeah. Fair. 

[01:13:54] Eldar: How do you take that kind of attitude and put that in, you know- Well, again- ... into settings? ... I think 

[01:13:59] Toliy: to, to me at least, yeah, um, like, um, in, in Catholic e- e- example at least, I think it's starts with, um, like buying into the things that, like, you're doing or that you want to, to do, and actually, yeah, like, e- like, like being proud of your life may- maybe and, like, actually- How do you become proud of your life?

[01:14:21] being able to, to capitalize on, like- All the benefits. Yeah, on all- Yeah ... the benefits, right? It's like, um, yeah, it's like a g- good example m- maybe of it at, at, at times is, like, like your mom, right? Mm-hmm. Like, she might, like, find out what's included or, or, like, Ru- Russian parents I feel like in general are like- Are ham hogs

[01:14:40] pretty... Yeah, they're ham hogs on that. Yeah. Like, if they're in, like, an all-inclusive- Mm ... they wanna know what time all the shows are. Yes. What time all the- What's included ... activities are. Yeah. What time is this? When's that? What's included? Do you get this? Do you get that? Room ser- like, they wanna know everything, and they almost wanna, like, get as much out of it as- They wanna get maximum-

[01:14:56] possible. They speak out ... maximum- Yes. They speak for themselves. Yeah. Where some people are like, they're not gonna use 70% of it- Yeah ... and just use, like, like the 30%. Like, some people- Mm ... are like that, you know? Yeah. They'll go, they'll, they'll, they'll- I, I- ... they won't leave any stone unturned. Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:15:08] Katherine: I actually c- I can argue the opposite of my family Scared to speak up 

[01:15:14] Yes 

[01:15:15] Oh, no, n- like, um, they're very...

[01:15:17] Especially, um, my family members that haven't been here for that long and still have a very Colombian mindset- Yeah ... come from a place where they don't speak up for themselves. They, uh, th- they just, uh... It's a completely opposite- it's a completely opposite thing, where they're not out there- Yeah ... and saying, "Hey," like, "the world is mine, and I'm gonna- Yeah

[01:15:39] I'm gonna take what I can." It's, it's completely the opposite. Mm-hmm. 

[01:15:43] Eldar: Yeah. You know? Yeah, so I feel like- And 

[01:15:44] Katherine: that, that, that's from, like, low self-esteem ... yeah, like, we, we, 

[01:15:46] Eldar: we at least maybe from the culture even, right, we al- almost anticipate- It's a very different culture ... anticipate static. Yeah. We want that, where for her it's always like, "We need to avoid this."

[01:15:53] Oh, no, my culture is opposite. No, our 

[01:15:55] Toliy: cultures are 

[01:15:55] Eldar: very argumentative- Oh, no, we're 

[01:15:56] Toliy: very different ... very rude- Yes ... very mean. Yeah. Yes. 

[01:15:59] Katherine: Yeah. Like that. So imagine- Straight in your face. Yeah ... Colombians are, and, and what I can, uh, have observed, uh, very friendly, and I think e- the extremists of people pleasers because they wanna be friendly.

[01:16:12] They don't, they don't wanna come off, uh- Yeah ... you know, uh, so it's, it's, it's- But behind 

[01:16:16] Eldar: the scenes they're aggy. It's, 

[01:16:17] Katherine: yeah, but what do you... what happens? You have resentment, and you still- Mm-hmm. Yeah ... you're still human. You're still gonna build anger and resentment- Correct ... and on the other side. Yeah. So I, I have witnessed really, really poor communication in my family.

[01:16:28] Yeah. And, uh, people that call themselves very close, uh, can't be honest with each other at all about, like, the silliest things, that you would think, like, "Well, this is so silly." 

[01:16:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:16:39] Katherine: And then they're, like, v- very close. Like, you know, like, I have a cousin and an aunt that are, like, BFFs. 

[01:16:45] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:16:45] Katherine: No. And they can't even be, uh, straight up with each other.

[01:16:49] So, um, yeah, my culture, for example, and that's what I come from. Like, I, I, I... that's, that's, that's what I, I grew up with that. So we witness, like, two, two very, you know... Like, my mom, for example, is the opposite of Farida. My mom can still be a bull, but she's the opposite of Farida, you know? See, 

[01:17:05] Eldar: like, again, your story, uh, when I hear it, Lan, and now that you're raising awareness about everything that you experienced and that you're trying to experience, it's such a cool story because you're on this journey of, like, really trying to, like, turn the leaf and- Turn the, yeah

[01:17:19] really have a different type of life. Try and do 

[01:17:20] Mike: it 

[01:17:20] Eldar: all. Yeah, you know? And it's a cool thing because- Yes ... you actually have the opportunity. But yeah, if you don't hone in, if you don't actually appreciate it, if you don't actually are, um, constantly grateful for it- Yeah, like- ... you're never gonna 

[01:17:33] Toliy: bake 

[01:17:33] Eldar: that into your 

[01:17:34] Toliy: brain.

[01:17:34] Yeah. The, the, uh, the, uh, the, um, analogy here is that, like, you're in an all-inclusive re- resort- Yes ... and you're just eating the snacks they put in. You, you, you, you drinking from the water fountain. No, you're, like- ... like, you're in the hotel room. They, they leave you, like, you know, nuts and candy and, like- Yeah

[01:17:48] little, like, snacks. Yeah. You're eating that when there's, like- Yeah ... everything of- Lobster ... available. Yeah. Lobster and steak You're, you're doing, like, my water fountain jo- 

[01:17:55] Eldar: Mm. I think the water fountain is pret- is better than the nuts. Oh, fine. Fine, okay. You know, there's ev- But- ... every liquor and s- Yeah ... you can drink whatever you want.

[01:18:01] Yeah, yeah. You're drinking from the water fountain. Yeah, yeah. That's what's happening. 

[01:18:06] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:18:06] Eldar: Yeah, 

[01:18:06] Toliy: so I feel like, yeah- Yeah ... until you actually, like- Capitalize on that Buy in Buy in Mm-hmm Like, like feel- You can't leave with that. Yeah, yeah. Feel the benefits and are able to actually, like, be- Yeah ... that person.

[01:18:20] It'll be, yeah, it'll, it'll be a very, like, uphill battle and very, I think, painful. Like, everything will be like pulling teeth. 

[01:18:28] Katherine: Yeah, that's how things feel sometimes. Yeah. You know? I agree. Um, 

[01:18:32] Mike: I wanted to mention the thing that Kat said about trust. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think like, uh, I think it's a maybe, uh, what I, what I thought about was, like, um, she said, uh, "I have a hard time trusting," right?

[01:18:49] You have a hard... You said something like that. In the 

[01:18:51] Katherine: past, yeah. In the 

[01:18:51] Mike: past. Oh, so you don't have that- Yeah ... you're better now. 

[01:18:53] Katherine: I think, I think, uh, I think that's... it's better now. Yeah. Yeah. My thing 

[01:18:57] Mike: about, like, trust, and I guess all these things, and respect, and any kind of thing you would like to, um, that prevent...

[01:19:04] that, that, that, that we talk about, I think one big thing is, like, um, before you can, like, I guess, how... re- demand respect from somebody else, or demand, like, a... or have trust from somebody else, you have to trust yourself. 

[01:19:20] Mm-hmm. 

[01:19:21] You know? Or respect yourself. And I think when you have that, then you, like, automatically carry yourself a certain way where you can engage in a thing, but you're also enough in the moment where you are attentive and you see what's going on, so you don't get into a, into like a b- like a ham hock situation.

[01:19:43] Well, I can 

[01:19:43] Eldar: tell you what came to my mind when you were talking about this trust stuff. 

[01:19:46] Mm. Mm-hmm. 

[01:19:47] I think that, uh, in what we're trying to accomplish, at least maybe in Catherine's case, or at least what we're trying to accomplish- Mm-hmm ... I think that we should not rely on trust at all. 

[01:19:56] Katherine: Right. The... Toliy said that.

[01:19:57] But, yeah. That's what I was saying. You're- Toliy said that a few minutes ago ... 

[01:19:59] Toliy: yeah, I was saying I think it's the opposite. Oh, you stepped out. Like, right now- Yeah ... do you wanna- Yeah ... trust others, um, to then, to do, s- do something. But yeah, real- Yeah, you need to trust yourself ... the real power- You just need to know yourself

[01:20:07] is that there's so much buying in yourself and who you are that you don't need anyone's trust. Yeah. You don't need anybody- And the truth of 

[01:20:12] Eldar: the matter is you shouldn't trust anyone, period. 

[01:20:14] Mm-hmm. 

[01:20:15] Right? Because I think that despite the fact that a lot of people can present themselves in a very nice way, in a very polished way, people became very good at putting on these masks.

[01:20:24] Yeah. Mm-hmm. The truth of the matter is I'm not sure if people are psychologically savvy enough- Mm ... to really understand, um, how to pick out words in such a way where every time you have conversations with them, you can be in a trustworthy relationship with them or yourself. So, like, putting trust any time into somebody's hands- Mm-hmm For them to be able to land you in the proper place of feeling, emotion- Yeah, a recipe 

[01:20:53] Toliy: for disappointment and disaster.

[01:20:55] It's a, it- Yeah. Yeah. It's a 

[01:20:55] Eldar: rec- Yeah. Like- Can you say that 

[01:20:56] Katherine: again? That last part. 

[01:20:57] Eldar: Like, to, to, to think that, to put trust in someone, to then to think that they're gonna be able to lead you or have a conversation with you or act a certain type of way, in such a way where you're gonna be in a safe place of your feelings, your emotions, is to set yourself up for crazy disaster and disappointment.

[01:21:15] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[01:21:15] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know what I mean? I think that- Yeah, maybe 

[01:21:17] Katherine: we're looking for the wrong things. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. 

[01:21:20] Toliy: Yeah, how often is this person going to be able to- Yeah ... like, 'cause there's like, like, there's so many, like- So many variables. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's almost like you have to say like, "Hey," like, um, like, "I wanna tell you something important."

[01:21:32] Like, "Have you had a good day? Are you able to pay attention right now?" Yeah. "Are you able to listen right now?" Correct. What's your mood like? Correct. Do you have time? And the truth of the matter- Did you have a long day? Yes. Yeah, right. You 

[01:21:40] Eldar: see, the truth of the matter is, if you don't vet them, and you have to vet people like crazy- Yeah

[01:21:46] in order to really use that word trust. Y- you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like, you really don't know what you're gonna get. It's re- literally a crapshoot. 

[01:21:53] Yeah. 

[01:21:54] You know what I... Because people are people. 

[01:21:56] Mm-hmm. 

[01:21:56] Rightfully so. Yeah. You know what I mean? And to, to, to, to, uh, for me at least, right, if I'm m- meeting new people, Mike knows this, 'cause I have protection, and Mike's trying to develop those protections as well- Mm-hmm.

[01:22:08] Mm-hmm ... because he's gotten burned so many times- Yeah ... you know, after developing relationships. For me to leave my feelings, my emotions to these new people that I meet, it's, it's like a- Foolish ... it's this crazy self-sabotage. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's so foolish. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, I would have to have such a relationship, I mean, I have these relationships with you guys, obviously, to know that the competency levels exist in those moments where I can, like, "Okay," like, "I need you right now in this specific thing to help me because I'm compromised."

[01:22:39] Mm-hmm. And we just recently had that- Yeah ... where me and Mike, we're compromised with this, this whole lawyer thing. Mm-hmm. We're going through our, you know, real estate deal right now. Mm-hmm. And me and M- M- mine and Mike's head were gone because we were upset- No, of course ... internally, right? It's just frustrating.

[01:22:52] And Toliy, Toliy was like, "Yo, I'm log..." He was logical. He, he, he hit the, all the questions on the nail. I'm like, "I'm not able to..." I understand him. I felt it. I was like, "You're right." Yeah. "But I can't talk like that right now." Yeah. Like, "I'm just gonna fucking get on the call." You're compromised. "I'm gonna tell him fuck you."

[01:23:05] You know what I mean? And that's it. Like, that's what's gonna come out. So I trusted Toliy to have that conversation, and it came out the way I wanted it to come out. Yeah. It was good. I knew that- That's the right thing to do ... he can handle that in that moment, and I, I was appreciative of that, obviously. So like, but I can do this.

[01:23:20] I can take advantage of that because I c- I've had conversations for a long time for Toliy. I know what I'm gonna get. Mm-hmm. I know what I'm gonna get from Toliy, I know what I'm gonna get from Mike or from you, to be able to entrust my feelings or emotions in that moment to be protected. Mm-hmm. And to be, um, s- directed in the right way.

[01:23:38] You know what I'm saying? Otherwise, are you crazy? You know what I mean? In that specific moment, I trusted Toliy 'cause I know it. But there's many times where I know that Toliy's not gonna be able to handle it properly, and I don't trust him, rightfully so. And it should go back, back and forth. We should know our competencies.

[01:23:53] Right. We should know their competencies so we can extract the best that we can and apply the best things in those moments. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? So yes. Yeah. What Toliy said, don't... Yeah, trust, fuck that. Out the window. Yeah. 

[01:24:05] Katherine: No, I, I- No ... I fully agree with it, you know? Yeah. You just gotta trust yourself and- You have to 

[01:24:09] Eldar: trust yourself and you have- Know yourself.

[01:24:11] That's it ... you have to put, you have to put money on, put the chips on yourself- Yeah ... and lead. On that side. 

[01:24:15] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:24:15] Eldar: Yes. Yeah, and then that- Within that conversation ... that, 

[01:24:17] Katherine: that, that takes it to lead, to leading- Yes ... which is very interesting and also something- But in order to lead- ... that, that I lack ... you have to know to some degree 

[01:24:23] Eldar: your shit.

[01:24:24] Yeah. Yes. If you don't know your shit- Yeah ... 

[01:24:25] Mike: you're gonna get owned. 

[01:24:27] Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:24:28] But, and I also want, like, I remember what I wanted to add, and I think it, it ties into what we're saying right now- Yeah ... is accountability. Mm-hmm. 

[01:24:35] Yeah. 

[01:24:36] Um, if you did make the mistake, right? Yeah. Like, a lot of times- Yeah ... I feel like people make mistakes, but they don't put accountability in the right place.

[01:24:44] "Oh, I trusted this guy. Oh, I respected this guy." Mm-hmm. "Oh, I was honest with this guy." Yeah. "And he didn't give that back to me." Well, the truth is it's not, uh, it's not by accident that didn't, that happened. 

[01:24:55] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:24:55] Mike: You did not demand that from yourself. You did not demand that in your relationships- Yeah ... to be treated in the such a way.

[01:25:01] Yeah. And if you wanna hold somebody accountable, you don't hold that person accountable. Yeah. You hold yourself accountable so you can actually learn from those experiences. If you don't- Yeah ... then you're just gonna be, like, forever, like, having- You, you po- 

[01:25:12] Eldar: you're always pointing the 

[01:25:13] Mike: finger ... pointing the finger.

[01:25:14] Yeah. You're always gonna be pointing the finger. Oh, I can't do this. 

[01:25:16] Eldar: I have one 

[01:25:17] Toliy: question, completely off topic. I'm, I'm just wondering if this, if the, if Archie's a genius right now or not. He's a genius. Did both of them find it or no? No. No? Yo, this person- Yes ... he's a savant. He knows. He's looking for the second one.

[01:25:32] Mike: He, he found it. 

[01:25:32] Toliy: He knows that Eldar put out two. Yes. Right? And he knows- ... that she did not find hers 'cause she stole his. She stole his. Yes. So now he's looking. Yeah. What a fucking genius. No, I think, I th- Of course. 

[01:25:44] Katherine: I, I love that you're giving him that much grace, but I actually just think that, like, maybe he smells it 'cause his, his nose is so good.

[01:25:50] No, but I do. Yes. No, but he 

[01:25:51] Toliy: knows that he found one. 

[01:25:52] Katherine: He knows. Yeah, he's looking for it. 

[01:25:54] Eldar: Yeah. Like- So to, to give, to give the s- uh, listeners a background, we hid some treats for b- for both dogs. There was two treats. For both dogs. Two treats. Two treats. Only one was found by Archie. But then- Penny stole half of it Penny just simply 

[01:26:05] Katherine: stole his when she couldn't find hers And, 

[01:26:07] Eldar: yeah, and Penny's now laying down.

[01:26:08] She doesn't know anything, what's going on. And Archie's- And she's under the impression that there's no more treats. But Archie went to look for the second one- He's now looking for the second one ... because he knows the second one has not been eaten. Yeah. 

[01:26:16] Toliy: I'm like, "

[01:26:16] Katherine: Yo, why is he still circling?" But generally- I realize- We can say that- She never found it

[01:26:19] Archie is a very smart dog. She is, yeah. He is. What a 

[01:26:21] Toliy: fucking... Like, who would, who would do this, though? He is fabulous. What a sweetie. What do you mean? He knows. Like, how did he know, like... Well, no, he knew that because she stole his. He didn't get to finish h- his. Yes. Yeah. Right? That there's a- another one out there.

[01:26:33] Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because he knows that you put out two. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I showed him the two. Yeah. I showed him both two. What a fucking savant. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, Penny's already done. Yeah, Penny, Penny's 

[01:26:42] Katherine: satisfied. She's like, "All right." Yeah, she already had it. "I had a treat. I'm good." 

[01:26:45] Eldar: Yeah, so, all right. Yeah, sorry.

[01:26:48] Yeah, being a leader, right? And then come up with conversations. Yeah. Mike? Yeah. Uh, can we make that the next 

[01:26:51] Katherine: topic? No, it's, uh- 'Cause that, that's a, that's, that, that's, that one's important, too. 

[01:26:56] Eldar: Yeah, I think it is important. 

[01:26:57] Katherine: Yeah. I don't know if we have this topic before, but definitely, like, leading for someone who, who...

[01:27:02] Sure. Like, that's alien to me. 

[01:27:04] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So. I think, like I said, Mike, that comes natural to Mike. That's a good topic as well, right. That, that type of interaction comes- Yeah, yeah ... in meeting new people, very natural. He's very good. Yeah. Yeah. Where despite the fact that they might talk surface level bullshit, he's gonna extract.

[01:27:18] Like- Yeah ... he's gonna force you- I mean- ... to talk about what you actually feel. Mike can, Mike 

[01:27:22] Katherine: can do this with people who d- uh, you know- Don't speak the same language ... like, speak a different language. Yes. Yeah. So, like- 

[01:27:28] Mike: Yeah. Yeah ... I 

[01:27:28] Katherine: mean, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I don't 

[01:27:30] Mike: know. I always liked it, so it always came natural to me.

[01:27:34] Mm-hmm. I always wanna understand- I think, you know- So much so I have another story ... 

[01:27:36] Katherine: you know, okay, before you get into your story- It's okay, yeah ... you know, one thing that I can spin, too, is, like, maybe my narrative on this. Yeah. Maybe my narrative g- like, for a long time or forever has been a certain way.

[01:27:47] Yeah. And I have to, you know, also, like, look at it in a more positive, curious way instead of, like- I think, I think that- So the thing is- ... what 

[01:27:54] Mike: you're saying is coming from the, maybe, maybe the accountability thing that, that I just said is because maybe you were under the wrong impression about the way things played out and how much control you actually have in those.

[01:28:07] Mm-hmm. Because, like, um- 

[01:28:10] Katherine: Yeah Well, think about it. I have social anxiety 

[01:28:12] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[01:28:13] Katherine: so being social sometimes can have a negative connotation 

[01:28:17] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:28:17] Katherine: you know, to, you know, with it sometimes. Not all the times. Yeah. I feel like I have... I, I'm, I'm a little, I'm better than before- Mm ... but I, there's still a lot of space to grow, right?

[01:28:27] So the way I look at it, the way I see it, um, maybe I can change that narrative as well, instead of seeing it as an opportunity to be more curious and to be myself. See, that's the 

[01:28:36] Eldar: thing. Like, I think- Mm ... Mi- Mike is already naturally sees, like, people as an opportunity organically. Right. Every time he goes into those interactions- Yeah, for me it wasn't like that

[01:28:44] he has an opportunity to have a real conversation. Yeah. Where you, like, trust, don't trust- Scared ... not sure, what the fuck. Scared. Right? So he leads these conversations, so much so that I'm gonna bring you another story, and Mike obviously remembers this one. Mm. Right? Um, one day he calls me up. Um, I mean, this is the time when I was a youth coordinator.

[01:29:00] Mm-hmm. I was working with the youth and stuff, and I, obviously Mike knows my background, you know, in mental health, uh, counseling and stuff. Oh, 

[01:29:07] yeah. 

[01:29:07] And, uh, one day he calls me up, goes, "Yo, bro, like, can you help me out?" I'm like, "Yeah, what's up, man?" He's like, "Man, I just met this girl. I was driving her, actually, and she's, um, she's in some trouble, you know?

[01:29:16] She needs a little bit of, like, counseling, mentoring or whatever, you know?" I'm like, "Yeah, sure, no problem," you know? I show up, you know, it's a, it's a complete junkie. 

[01:29:24] Mm-hmm. 

[01:29:24] Right? Oh, no. She's a, she's a heroin addict. You can see, you can see this by... You know, she's completely disheveled. Um- Wow. 

[01:29:31] Katherine: Wait, but Mike, how did you stumble upon her?

[01:29:32] Well- She's a friend? ... she called, 

[01:29:33] Mike: she called, uh, my company, you know, for a ride. Oh. She called my company for a ride, and, uh...

[01:29:43] She ca- she called the company for a ride, and it was, like, a short, short notice thing. I was like, "Yeah, no problem. I, I'll help her. I... Like, I'll guess I'll help her out or I'll go." Mm. I was, like, home, and it was, like, uh, 10 minute away, so I went to do the ride myself. Okay. This is, like, when I was probably, you know, initially starting out first few years.

[01:30:00] Katherine: Yeah, wow. 

[01:30:01] Mike: And she called. 

[01:30:02] Katherine: Okay. 

[01:30:02] Eldar: Yeah, so when I arrived, I clearly saw, you know. I mean, like, her whole fingernails are, like, all black. You know what I mean? Oh. Like, she's, like, pretty much barefoot, like, all- Poor thing ... completely disheveled. Mm. You know what I mean? But again, you know, Mike got into the conversation of, like, "Hey, how are you doing?"

[01:30:17] kind of thing. "What's going on?" and stuff, and we really got, you know, deep, and we, we did have a pretty good conversation I would say, you know. Yeah. Trying to help her out, sober up and stuff and- Yeah, we got her some drinks ... had her some water and stuff like that. Talked to her, yeah. And really talked to her, you know.

[01:30:28] Yeah. Uh, but that just shows that, like, even then in those situations where it's like anyone else would be like, "Yo, get out of my car." Like- Of course, yeah ... like freak out, right? The trust part. 

[01:30:38] Katherine: Or, or, or not even let her in the car to begin with. That's, that's what I'm saying. Like, "Okay, this person's comfy," you know?

[01:30:42] The fear would have driven 

[01:30:42] Eldar: this person away completely where it's like- Yeah ... "Yo, get, get out of here," you know. Yeah. Or be completely disgusted by it. Mm-hmm. But Mike, uh, you know, with open arms at least, you know, like- Mm ... tried something, right. Yeah. Called me up, and then I was there. We were, we tried to counsel her and stuff like that out of it.

[01:30:56] But how the... I mean, how the story ended is- Yeah ... after we dropped her off wherever she needed to go, we gave her a couple bucks or whatever I remember. 

[01:31:04] Mm-hmm. Um, 

[01:31:04] a day later or- Couple days later, yeah ... couple days later, police reached out to Mike and said that, uh, it's like, "Hey, like, we're doing an investigation, and it seems like, um- 

[01:31:13] Katherine: No

[01:31:14] Eldar: this person was, was with you," whatever, whatever. Mm-hmm. "But she passed away." Yeah, they, like, found her, like, somewhere. They found her somewhere. 

[01:31:20] Katherine: Oh, man. Yeah. Wow. 

[01:31:22] Eldar: So- Wow ... after we dropped her off. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah, they found her- Yeah ... dead somewhere. But yeah, but that's like, you know, again, I'm not saying for you to go out there and pick up junkies-

[01:31:33] and give them rides. Yeah. Mm. Yeah, unless into that sort of thing. Yeah, unless you into that kind of thing, right. Even... But people are do that kind of stuff, right, obviously. Yeah. They're obviously out there. No, there's, there's good 

[01:31:41] Katherine: Samaritans out there- Absolutely, absolutely ... 

[01:31:43] Eldar: just like Mike. Yeah. But, um, yeah, definitely have to keep an open mind to a degree.

[01:31:47] Katherine: Yeah. I think, I think my narrative about it- Yeah ... has to s- flip. Like- Yeah ... like, like on the o- other things that I've been trying to work on in my life in general, like, that- Yeah ... narrative has to switch, you know- Yeah ... that negativity that- Yeah ... you're trying to, to do things differently. Like, I think I have to do that for this as well, you know.

[01:32:04] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:32:05] Katherine: Um, yeah. 

[01:32:07] Eldar: And I think it has to come from a place of want versus a place of- Yeah ... I need to. You know- Yeah ... actually, 

[01:32:15] Katherine: uh, uh, very recently, it's very interesting we're having this conversation- Mm-hmm ... because, uh, just recently in these last few weeks, I've been feeling like- That, that want- Okay ... 

[01:32:26] to 

[01:32:26] meet people.

[01:32:27] Yeah. 

[01:32:27] Like, m- I haven't done it, but, like, I really, really- Mm-hmm ... I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna find the time this weekend- Yeah ... or t- even tonight to, like, go on Meetup or something. You know that Meetup- Mm-hmm, yeah ... you know, to, to meet people? Yeah. It's been on my mind for, for a while. 

[01:32:41] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:32:41] Katherine: And I felt, I felt, I, I felt like this, this feeling for it- Mm-hmm

[01:32:44] just a few weeks ago, just a few weekends ago, and I'm gonna do it, you know? Mm-hmm. This is the, the kind of thing that I've thought for a long time like, "Oh yeah, you know, maybe I should do it," and then I never get to it. Mm-hmm. But this time it's... I feel like it's different. 

[01:32:57] Eldar: Okay. So. Well, let's- I'd like to do that

[01:32:58] let's, let's give, uh, the, the meanest guy in the group, uh, what's his name? The Mike, and let him weigh in on the Meetup, uh, suggestion or journey- Okay ... that Catherine's gonna go on. What do you think, Toliy? You said the meanest guy in the group, Mike? No, the m- The Mike. 

[01:33:14] Toliy: Oh, the Mike. 

[01:33:14] Eldar: Yeah, yeah. Be nice. What, what do you think about- What do you think, what do you think about the Meetup, Meetup group?

[01:33:18] Is it a good idea? 

[01:33:19] Katherine: Is it a terrible idea? 

[01:33:20] Eldar: Just be honest right now. Come on. 

[01:33:22] Toliy: Well, no, I- ... I, like, see, like, I'm- ... I'm, I'm s- I'm, like, still, again, like, I'm still more of an advocate for, like, um... You could do that obviously, but I'm, I'm definitely more of the advocate of, like, um, I think that there's, like, an opportunity in front of you for you to, to, um, like...

[01:33:41] Yeah, like, to, to, to me it's always, like, somewhat of, like, a solo adventure- 

[01:33:45] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... 

[01:33:45] Toliy: to then, to, to then, like, um, to, to, to then be, be able to extract what you're looking from those kinds of, like, scenarios. 

[01:33:55] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:33:56] Toliy: That, that, that's just how I kind of like, you know, view it, where, like, like, like based on the opportunity you have and your, your capabilities and what you can and can't...

[01:34:07] Like, like, what, what you can do every single day, I would, um, try to figure out, like, and then, like, you know, you know, have steps in place to, um, improve all of those things and then have it so that, like, every day when you wake up and every day when you go to bed you're, like, happy and satisfied with, like- Mm-hmm

[01:34:26] what, what happened. And I think that, like, as, as you do that enough times you will be able to, like, um, not be as stressed and not be, like, you know, in like a different place mentally constantly. Mm-hmm. And then you'll have the actual, like, energy and the ability to, like, do all of these different types, types of things.

[01:34:47] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:34:48] Toliy: Um, like that, yeah. That, that's, like, my, like... 

[01:34:53] Eldar: I don't like to predict the future, but I like to say that when you start seeing successes in something like this you're gonna become the biggest promoter of The Dennis Rocks podcast. With that being said, do we have any final thoughts regarding the topic?

[01:35:08] Let's start with you, baby. 

[01:35:10] Katherine: Hmm. Thank you, guys. Uh, this was, this was a, a good topic. Very, um- 

[01:35:16] Eldar: Relatable ... 

[01:35:17] Katherine: re- like relevant to, for me in this moment right now. Um, I don't know if I have anything else, like, to add. Um... 

[01:35:26] Eldar: You have homework. 

[01:35:27] Katherine: I have homework. From 

[01:35:28] Eldar: Totally Bear. 

[01:35:29] Katherine: But I always do, right? Don, I always- Are you 

[01:35:31] Eldar: deviating?

[01:35:32] Katherine: Um, I don't like doing homework. 

[01:35:35] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:35:35] Katherine: Um, my therapist will always say that. Like, she likes to give me homework- Yeah ... but she knows. She's like, "Did you do... You probably didn't do it, huh?" Yeah. I'm like, "No." Um, no. That... I don't, I don't have anything else to add. Mike? Thank you, guys. 

[01:35:49] Mike: Um, yeah. I think, um, for Kat, I would say,

[01:35:57] like, uh, f- like, like, uh, doing things that are fun is, is very natural, you know? And when you're doing something that you're fi- that, that you find fun and that you could talk about... Like, if you find something fun, you're gonna be able to talk about it a lot, and I think, uh, finding things that are actually fun for you, doing more of those, promoting that, I think is, like, really big- Mm-hmm

[01:36:19] so that you can have fun, and then you can, when you meet people, you can actually promote the things that you enjoy, and I think the reasons those things are fun are much m- deeper than, than we think. Like, uh- 

[01:36:32] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:36:32] Mike: it's not that simple. Yeah. I think, um, the fun is actually rooted in a lot of truth. Mm. And I think once you find out the things that are actually fun for you and you can really enjoy them, I think it's gonna be effortless.

[01:36:48] Katherine: I think the fun comes when you actually liberate yourself, right? 

[01:36:52] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. But in the process of h- having fun, you actually- But what are you liberating, you know? 

[01:36:57] Katherine: Oh, all the junk, uh, in my head. 

[01:36:59] Mike: You 

[01:36:59] Eldar: see? 

[01:36:59] Katherine: Fears. Uh- You see? 

[01:37:01] Mike: You 

[01:37:02] Katherine: know, regular shit. 

[01:37:06] Mike: Yeah. When, when we are... When we were, uh, in the office a couple of days ago- Mm-hmm

[01:37:10] you know, doing the Ethernet stuff, after we left, I felt like... I felt great. Mm-hmm. You know, because something I like to do, I like to tinker with stuff, and I feel like I miss that in my life. Like, I don't have something that I like, I'm projecting- Mm. Mm ... as far as tinkering, and I feel like the reason I like that so much is because I can get lost in the process, lost in the moment, lost in whatever's being done, and really concentrate and focus on that and try to, like, enjoy that time- Mm-hmm

[01:37:36] you know, versus, like, you know, the negative thoughts, the stressors, the worries, right? Mm-hmm. Like, we all have those, but I think being able to concentrate, devote yourself to something that you're completely in, like you have with, like, uh, gardening- Yeah ... where you can get lost for hours and hours. Yeah.

[01:37:52] Yeah. I f- I would... I can get lost in certain things like that, too. 

[01:37:57] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:37:57] Mike: Um, but I don't have a ch- I don't do that, like, uh- Mm-hmm ... like, enough or often. Um, but I mean, I really love that, and I think that's a huge thing. 

[01:38:07] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:38:08] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:38:10] Eldar: Toliy? 

[01:38:11] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I... We, we, we spoke about this on, like, one of, one of the other recent episodes, but yeah, I feel like- Um, for, for, for, for as long as I guess in, in recent memory at least, but, but probably even in the past as I can remember, like, um, for Kat, one of the biggest issues has been sleep, right?

[01:38:30] Yeah. 

[01:38:31] You know? So I feel like, um, yeah, like I, I definitely know what it's like to get good sleep consistently. Mm-hmm. And I know what it's like to get bad sleep consistently, and I also know what it feels like to be somewhere in between, where you sometimes get good, some- sometimes bad. Mm-hmm. And I know that, um, I don't know if the word is, like, impossible, but I feel like it's pretty difficult to chip away at these things or do any of these things without, you know, getting good sleep.

[01:38:59] Yeah. But it's a very tricky thing as far as, like, what you think to work on. I- and like, it's not, like, necessarily getting good... Like, it is getting good sleep, but it's also, like, what you do throughout the day and how you go about it. Everything contributes towards that. It's, uh, it's, yeah. 

[01:39:16] Katherine: Yeah, it's not- It's like a hol- a holistic- 

[01:39:18] Toliy: Yeah

[01:39:18] thing. People think, like, you know, they're like, "Oh, I wanna wake up early," for example. It's like, "Oh, it's a matter of setting an alarm." 

[01:39:23] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, it's 

[01:39:24] Toliy: like, it has nothing to do with that. 

[01:39:25] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:39:26] Toliy: It, it's all the things that before it. Before that, yeah. Setting alarm is the easiest part. Everyone can set an alarm at 6:00 AM.

[01:39:31] Mm-hmm. Yeah. But if you're waking up at 6:00 AM and you feel like shit- And then you're feeling like crap ... you know? Yeah. Like, what are you, what are you doing? But it's all the- You're not, you're not really... You, you didn't really wake up. No. You're just sleepwalking- It's all the stuff- ... for the next three hours

[01:39:41] it, yeah, it's, it's all the stuff before. And I feel like once you actually can get that good sleep that maybe you're desiring, and once you have particular days that lead to you getting good sleep, I think that, like, you w- you won't be able to not live that kind of way. It'll be impossible. 

[01:39:58] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:39:58] Toliy: That what- whatever pain you have of, of living that way, like now, it'll feel like 100X, like, worse.

[01:40:04] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:40:04] Toliy: And you, you just won't be able to do it. Like, you, you will just already, like unconscious- un- unconsciously set your day up in a way where, like, you're actually able to get the good rest, and you're actually able to feel good so that you could function well, and then so that you could tackle all of these different things.

[01:40:21] So like, yeah, to me it's like, yeah, like w- I, I f- feel like we're gonna go to the same place up until we don't, like, need to- Yeah ... here, you know? It's 

[01:40:28] Katherine: the hierarchy of needs. Yeah. You know? To self-actualize. I agree with him. I, 

[01:40:31] Eldar: I agree with Toliy- Yeah ... about that- Yeah ... for sure. That, uh, you know, until you finally saddle yourself up, you know, properly- 

[01:40:39] Mike: Mm-hmm

[01:40:40] Eldar: where throughout the day you actually are in, like Mike said, first having fun as much as you can, right? But also, um, start leading yourself into a place where you can fend for yourself and protect your own most important things about your, you know, your day, like peace and your sleep. Uh, yeah, you're just gonna be a pinball.

[01:41:00] Yeah. You know, so. Mm-hmm. Um, but, uh, regarding my final thoughts regarding the topic, yeah, I think this is super important. I think, uh, it's probably overlooked a lot, right? We constantly meet new people all the time- Right? But who is, who's actually presenting themselves as the- as their true selves?

[01:41:20] Probably not many, you know? So, you know, if you listen to this podcast, you know, there's definitely a lot that you could take back, uh, in regards to some of these strategies that we've mentioned maybe. Uh, but yeah, uh, at least think about it. Like, who are you actually in that moment, right? Of that uncomfortable moment where you are still, you have that pit in your stomach before you have that first drink or a second drink or a third drink, where actually you relax and you can talk a little bit of shit, you know?

[01:41:45] Are you your truly, are you your true self? Mm. Right? Who are you protecting, right? But- If you're people pleasing ... 

[01:41:51] Toliy: but, but you know what's funny? If everyone was just their, like, true self and this is kind of how they acted, you would almost not, like, people almost wouldn't develop these, like, mental ill-nesses, right?

[01:42:03] Mm-hmm. And like- 

[01:42:04] Yeah ... 

[01:42:05] in, in this. It's only because, like, this stuff only happens because of, like, maybe observed behavior of others, right? Yeah. And, like, cultural settings- Yeah ... right, or, like, societal norms- Yeah ... or, like, these kinds of, like, bullshit things. Yeah. But if everyone was just like, "Hey, like- Yeah

[01:42:19] we're just gonna be our authentic selves," then, like, you wouldn't need to, like, like, even think about this route really, right? No. It would just be like, uh- You'd just be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, all of this is obviously a developed behavior, right? Like, it's a learned- 

[01:42:32] Eldar: Probably, yeah ... behavior. That turned into a mental illness.

[01:42:36] Yeah. For sure. All right, guys. Well, this was great, as always. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, guys. 

[01:42:42] Katherine: Ring, ring. James, this is, uh, reality calling.