214. When helping

Why does having the truth on your side still fail to change people's minds?

When you have the facts, the data, and a clear path to success, it seems like a no-brainer that the people you care about would listen. Yet, we have all experienced the deep frustration of bringing a horse to water, only for it to refuse to drink. In this episode, Mike, Toliy, and Eldar strip back the layers of what it truly means to execute effective communication and master interpersonal relationships when trying to help the people around us.

We dive into the raw reality of stepping into someone else's chaos, managing the emotional toll of overextending our boundaries, and breaking free from the trap of tying our sanity to other people's outcomes. Whether you are dealing with difficult family dynamics, trying to mentor a struggling student, or learning when to execute a hard pivot and pull back your energy, this conversation offers a masterclass in emotional intelligence and self-improvement.

"We're discovering more and more that the truth and the right information is readily accessible everywhere, but the ability to interpret it properly is nowhere to be found." — Toliy

Key Takeaways You’ll Discover:

• The critical mistake of letting your desire to fix a problem exceed their actual willingness to change.
• How to stop becoming a rigid gatekeeper of help and transition into an detached, high-value advisor.
• Why the absolute hardest part of guidance isn't gathering resources—it's mastering the timing and delivery of your message.
• The hidden power of fostering an environment where people feel safe dropping their guard and admitting their incompetence.
• How to use playful accountability to break down defensive walls without launching a personal attack.

But what happens when the person you are trying to rescue looks you dead in the eye, reaps every single benefit of your hard labor, and then intentionally drops the ball right at the finish line? Is it a complete lack of basic awareness, or is it something far more calculated? Mike shares a jarring, highly personal breakdown of a moment his family dynamic hit a wall—and the exact strategy he used to completely flip the script on their behavior.

[Click Play to unlock the hidden mechanics of human behavior and protect your energy today.]

Feel stuck and can't actualize? We'd love to hear your story - form  - https://forms.gle/joegCWQ7mHt7eN3K9

Transcript

[00:00:00] Dennis: On this week's episode 

[00:00:01] Eldar: If you are, like, just a helping person, I think that there's so much energy baked in into helping or giving others- 

[00:00:06] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:00:06] Eldar: that can grow you exponentially- 

[00:00:09] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:00:09] Eldar: as a person. 

[00:00:10] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:00:10] Eldar: And obviously help others in return. Yeah. 

[00:00:12] Mike: Finding the right approach to the right person at the right moment- Moment

[00:00:16] knowing what they need is important. Obviously, in anything you have to always pay attention to what's being said, how it's being said, you know? Mm-hmm. And I think I'm learning to become better at that. 

[00:00:25] Toliy: We're discovering more and more that the truth and the right information is readily accessible everywhere, but the ability to interpret it properly- 

[00:00:33] Eldar: Hmm, that word

[00:00:34] Toliy: is nowhere to be found.

[00:00:43] Eldar: All right, guys. Yes, we are live for another episode, and today we're gonna be on the search for a very fine thread, and, this thread I'm gonna try to describe like this: all of us in our lives have this opportunity to help others, and I think that, most people I think are wired, as... We as humanity I think are wired to help others.

[00:01:04] There's something about... Something in i- in us that when we at least feel happy or have our cup a little bit more full, we generally would like to do good. I think that, uh, we have that innate in us, obviously. However, sometimes a lot of us probably like to exte- overextend ourselves when it comes to helping others, right?

[00:01:26] Because helping others feels good, right? So we wanna do more of it. 

[00:01:30] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:01:30] Eldar: You know? So we kinda go around trying to help others, uh, in their problems. We actually have a strict rule here, if you're just, if you're just tu- tuning in into our podcast. We go by, uh, the rule of don't teach when not asked.

[00:01:44] You know, there's a whole topic we did a lot of episodes as to why you shouldn't teach when not asked, however, that's a lot of times can be hard because there's so much pain, there's so much hurt out there that it's almost... it's hard to not intervene, especially when it comes to family.

[00:01:57] And Mike, and we're obviously talking about your situation, your sister's situation where a lot of times you see how maybe desperate for help she really is or she really needs your help. 

[00:02:07] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:08] Eldar: And you're willing and able to help her in the areas that she's lacking, , however, there is this problem where After helping her for some time, you, you hit a wall where there's gonna be a time where she's gonna have to act on the help that you've provided.

[00:02:24] Okay? And she won't do it, right? She's not gonna be able to finish, take that last step to the finish line- 

[00:02:32] ... 

[00:02:32] Eldar: In order to complete a task- 

[00:02:34] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:02:34] Eldar: in order to finally finish some kind of paperwork for herself. Yeah. In order to finally get what, what is it that you're trying to push for.

[00:02:41] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:41] Eldar: Okay? And that's, I think it's a big problem, right? Because when we're help people, right? Mm-hmm. We, we want the best for them, right? We obviously wanna see the fruits of our labor. 

[00:02:52] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:02:52] Eldar: And that is what, right? "Hey, if I can help you, you in a rut, you in the problem- Mm-hmm ... I'd love to see you in a new light, and, uh, slowly try to get you to that light."

[00:03:01] So you do whatever it takes. However, a lot of times in this type of an approach,

[00:03:06] that person still has to take that one more step- Yeah ... or one more leap- 

[00:03:10] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:03:11] Eldar: in order to finally get there, and the whole success lies in that last step. 

[00:03:17] And they won't take it. Well, guess what happens?

[00:03:20] Psychologically, I think a lot of times, we, the people that are helping, let's just say, gonna feel disappointed. 

[00:03:26] Here we are, right? We have a goal in mind. We really wanna help, and we know where, what, what she needs to do, for example, but she doesn't do it, right? And you're like, "Holy shit," I spent all this time, all this effort, and then the other person really is not about it."

[00:03:41] Mm-hmm. And I think a lot of people go through this, this process of oh "They're, they're just a lost cause, you know? I'm not, I'm not helping them anymore." Mm-hmm. "I had enough of this," so the question I'd like to pose, just looking for this that barrier. 

[00:03:53] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:54] Eldar: How do we, number one, see that barrier of not being able to break through?

[00:03:59] How do we prevent from these types of things from happening and actually get the person to the finish line or help them get to the finish line in such a way where we don't face this kind of disappointment? 

[00:04:08] Or at least not if you already know that this person has this barrier, right? Find a way to prevent yourself from going into- Mm-hmm

[00:04:15] that whole helping phase. 

[00:04:17] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:04:18] Eldar: That can be a very long process. What do you guys think? 

[00:04:22] Toliy: Yeah, I mean, I feel like,

[00:04:23] Eldar: Did I get the ball over the net? Did you understand what I'm trying to find? 

[00:04:26] Toliy: No, yeah, I definitely think think you got the ball over the net. You know what I'm talking 

[00:04:29] Eldar: about? 

[00:04:30] Toliy: I do. 

[00:04:30] Eldar: Good.

[00:04:31] All right. 

[00:04:31] Toliy: Yeah, I just feel like overall as the people may be trying to help others I think there's like a couple of things going on. Like I think there's one misreading on who's asking for what- 

[00:04:43] ... 

[00:04:43] Toliy: Who's ready, who's not- 

[00:04:45] ... 

[00:04:45] Toliy: And what the actual person's, uh, like capabilities are and- What they're going through and how they all, and also how they view life as a whole. 

[00:04:55] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:04:56] Toliy: So to me, that's- You think 

[00:04:56] Eldar: that's an, you think that's an important factor before any help is given? 

[00:05:00] Toliy: I think it's a huge factor because- Mm ... I feel you know, like in, in Mike's case, he said like that word ""Pocoyis"" is alm- it's like the, uh, translation is what, like someone, like- Doesn't give a fuck

[00:05:09] that like give a fuck. But I would argue that that person does give a fuck. 

[00:05:13] To you, the perception is that they don't give a fuck- 

[00:05:15] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:05:16] Toliy: based on maybe what you're capable of and what you're willing to do and- 

[00:05:19] Mike: Oh, yeah. My standards, yeah ... 

[00:05:20] Toliy: what your scope is as to what you see. And their performance.

[00:05:24] Yeah. Yeah. How s- may- maybe simple something is or like what it is. Mm-hmm. But that person, they're actually like to the neck with, you know, dealing with their own things- Yeah ... and their own life and- 

[00:05:30] Mike: I understand that, for sure ... 

[00:05:32] Toliy: their own things. So to me, it's it's not that they're someone who doesn't give a fuck, it's like they just have too much going on that they're not capable of taking what maybe for somebody else feels like simple steps may- maybe, or hey, there's a huge ROI if you just do this.

[00:05:48] To me, it's like a combination of someone that is they have too much going on with a combination of being like uneducated and un- uninformed. But I feel like no one, if you sit them down for that second, like they're gonna be like, "Oh, well, yeah, I mean, of course I care about this, I care about that, or this or 

[00:06:04] Eldar: that."

[00:06:04] And that's, that's the deceiving part- You know? ... a lot of times you hit is because you probably, before you even help them, I'm sure that Mike sat, sat her down and had a conversation like, "Hey, here's where I can help you with. Are you down?" And she's "Yes, absolutely." I'm sure you got that confirmation.

[00:06:16] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:17] Eldar: Those people do actually like, "No, I want that." But when it comes to performing finally performing, they're nowhere to be found. 

[00:06:23] Toliy: Well, yeah, because at those moments, you, sure, you might say "Yeah, like of course this or that," but the person who's like the per- like it it's either the person who's asking the question already knows the scope and already knows what the person is capable of and where they're at.

[00:06:39] For example, may- maybe like in, in a very simple terms, right? Someone who's trying to get a loan, you know? Mm-hmm. For, for example, whether it's from a bank or wherever, equity entity, like finance place, right? Mm-hmm. The person who's wanting the loan I would say maybe in some case the person's "Hey, I'm gonna get this.

[00:06:56] I'm not paying it back." But I would say probably in a lot of cases they feel like, "Yeah, we're go- yeah, I'm, I'm gonna pay this back." Mm-hmm. This is gonna happen and that's gonna happen. That's gonna create this stream of income, right?

[00:07:06] So it's gonna get paid back. 

[00:07:07] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:07:07] Toliy: But then there's loans that don't get paid back by people who thought that they're gonna pay them back.

[00:07:11] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:07:12] Toliy: But these systems of penalties and whatever is in place by people, so it's like the person who's giving out the loan, they may know they're like, "Hey, this person probably not gonna be able to pay on time." "They're probably gonna pay a l- bunch of late fees. They're probably gonna do that."

[00:07:26] They still give them the loan. So in this case, it's either if you're extending for help you have to know... I- it's, yeah, it's either you take what the person is saying at face value and you go off of that, or you kind of already know ahead of time what the scope is and what's gonna probably happen, and you kind of, operate maybe in a, prove me wrong type of a mindset.

[00:07:48] Where it's almost like you have this kind of outlook as to what you think maybe statistically will happen based on your experience, or maybe you understand this person, and you have that kind of opinion or, or outlook of things. And if they prove, prove you wrong, great. But if they don't, you kind of already know what's, what's the gig- gig here.

[00:08:07] Eldar: But in the case like of Mike's case, he said, "Hey, I'm willing and able, and I like doing this stuff." 

[00:08:13] Toliy: Okay. 

[00:08:13] Eldar: Sometimes he can't complete that which he wants to do because of the fact that there is a boundary. 

[00:08:19] Toliy: Well, 

[00:08:19] Eldar: yeah. You know what I mean? He needs the other person in order to take that next step- Yeah, but-

[00:08:23] or do 

[00:08:24] Toliy: something ... yeah, but he can't force himself, right, in this scenario. 

[00:08:29] Eldar: Yeah, so what you're saying then, he's not vetting properly. 

[00:08:33] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:08:34] Eldar: Mike. 

[00:08:35] Do you feel that way? You feel like you didn't vet your sister, for example, to start helping her with the things that you wanted to help her?

[00:08:41] Mike: I'm not upset with her. I have no, like- Okay ... anything about it. 

[00:08:43] Eldar: Did you predict it? 

[00:08:45] Mike: Did I predict it? Did you foresee that happening? No, no. No. More, it's more it's surprising to me how much a, like- How deep it is

[00:08:51] pochoiska she is. Yes. Yeah. 

[00:08:52] Toliy: No, no, but what does that... Can, can you explain that thing? 'Cause off the may- maybe with context I would agree, but to me, I disagree off the bat. 

[00:08:59] Eldar: But because you're also that kind of person. Huh? Sorry. 

[00:09:01] Toliy: What? 

[00:09:02] Eldar: You're also that kind of person. Mm. 

[00:09:04] Toliy: Well, I think we all are.

[00:09:05] Eldar: Okay, cool. Nice. Yeah. We always are. Like, 

[00:09:09] Toliy: Explain, what do you mean by that? Like, why, why- By what? Why is she that word? The, uh- 

[00:09:12] Mike: Why is she pochoiska? 

[00:09:13] Toliy: Yeah.

[00:09:14] Eldar: Translate it first to English.

[00:09:15] Toliy: You're saying she, she doesn't give a fuck. 

[00:09:17] Mike: She doesn't give a fuck about anything, yeah.

[00:09:19] Toliy: Okay what does that mean? 

[00:09:20] Mike: The way Francisco runs amok when my parents are not around. 

[00:09:24] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:25] Mike: That's absolutely wild. 

[00:09:27] Toliy: Okay. 

[00:09:28] Mike: He's just piss piging. She's not trying to 

[00:09:32] Eldar: Discipline him. 

[00:09:33] Mike: No discipline, yeah. She's just, he's just running amok- Okay ... and she's, she can't do anything. I understand why she's I understand why she has this don't give a fuck attitude about everything. I'm not, I was actually thinking about it more, why is she in that place? Like, how her childhood, how her teenage years, how sh- her whole relationship everything obviously led her to this.

[00:09:52] I'm not surprised. I'm not, 

[00:09:53] Toliy: no, but I'm wondering- But- ... why do you categorize her as that? Like, why do you,

[00:09:56] Eldar: well, because I think that, I think that you're not, maybe not understanding his example, and I'll explain this to you. When his parents are at home, right? 

[00:10:02] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:03] Eldar: And because she has a difficult child- 

[00:10:05] Toliy: Yeah

[00:10:05] Eldar: right, there is some kind of structure. Okay? There's some kind of discipline. It might not be the best, but it does exist. Okay. 

[00:10:12] Toliy: Okay? And 

[00:10:12] Eldar: who 

[00:10:13] Toliy: enforces that? 

[00:10:14] Eldar: Probably the parents and her- Okay ... together, right? Okay. It's a dynamic. 

[00:10:17] Toliy: Okay. 

[00:10:17] Eldar: Dynamic thing, right? As soon as the parents go on vacation, for example, that goes completely out the window.

[00:10:23] Toliy: Okay, why? 

[00:10:24] Eldar: Well, because she doesn't uphold it, right? 

[00:10:26] Toliy: But why? 

[00:10:27] Eldar: Because the, the word that she, she doesn't care. 

[00:10:29] Toliy: Because that she doesn't 

[00:10:30] Eldar: care. She doesn't care enough, right? 

[00:10:31] Toliy: Well, 

[00:10:31] Eldar: so 

[00:10:31] Toliy: why doesn't she care, though? And why does she have to care about it? 

[00:10:35] Mike: Nobody has to do anything.

[00:10:36] Eldar: For example- the thing is the kid breaks things in the house.

[00:10:39] Toliy: Okay. 

[00:10:40] Eldar: Right? So for example, she's not... that's not her house. She lives at home. 

[00:10:43] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:10:44] Eldar: Right? So her not caring there's gonna be crazy chaos. So I think she should care because things are gonna be broken. He might get hurt, you know? There's, there's consequences behind not caring 

[00:10:55] Toliy: But she doesn't view it that way, right?

[00:10:57] Eldar: She clearly doesn't. 

[00:10:58] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:10:59] Eldar: That's why Mike is seeing that to which extent that she really doesn't care of what transpires. 

[00:11:04] Toliy: Yeah. But the person who doesn't care-

[00:11:06] They know that they're not caring, correct? 

[00:11:07] Eldar: I'm not sure what she's thinking. 

[00:11:08] Mike: Uh- Yeah ... what she thinks, she probably won't say she's a But I would say she is.

[00:11:13] Doesn't really matter what she thinks or I think. It only matters what's actually the truth, and I think her behavior is behavior based on what I see. She may not feel that way, but just because you feel something, it doesn't mean that it's a right or, there's a truth or not about the situation. You know what I mean?

[00:11:30] But- 

[00:11:30] Toliy: But who doesn't act to some level in this kind of way, is what I'm trying to 

[00:11:34] Mike: figure out. In what way? 

[00:11:35] Toliy: In that way. 

[00:11:36] Mike: Like a ? 

[00:11:37] Toliy: Yeah

[00:11:40] Mike: I think we all act this way at times, but- 

[00:11:44] Toliy: Yeah ... 

[00:11:45] Mike: certain things, like you kinda you're not gonna just uh, pound 20 beers and, put a blindfold on and just start racing down the highway, right? Like you could say that's pahuist. Like you get drunk and you're just flying around, right? There's levels to it. Or you can have one beer and go on a road.

[00:11:59] That's not really reckless, but getting hammered and driving is pajois behavior. I think we would agree, no? 

[00:12:06] Eldar: I would agree with that. , Absolutely. 

[00:12:09] Yeah, sure. Somebody who's reckless, yeah, so who's reckl- who's behaving recklessly- Yeah ... doesn't really give a fuck- Doesn't give a fuck, yeah ... of the consequences, right?

[00:12:15] Yeah. And you're observing those types of I- 

[00:12:17] Yeah ... don't 

[00:12:18] Mike: give a fuck behaviors. Yeah. It's not in my opinion of a person who drinks 20 beers- 

[00:12:23] ... 

[00:12:23] Mike: And goes and drives recklessly is a is reckless behavior. It's my opinion, but I would think that we can agree that is reckless behavior just as a collective.

[00:12:32] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:12:33] Mike: Doesn't matter if that person doesn't think it's reckless or not, or is "No, I got this. This is normal. I could drive. I drive good." It doesn't matter what the opinion is of the person, what they think about what they're doing, but because-

[00:12:45] Toliy: But I'm saying that like the person who's acting and like in the...

[00:12:49] if she's acting how she's acting, like she has her reasons as to why she may not care about something or may- Sure ... or maybe she's not- 

[00:12:56] Mike: And I'm not disagreeing that she has her reasons ... aware of it, right? I understand it, but it- 

[00:13:00] Eldar: Doesn't, yeah, just because- Just because she has the reason, just because she has the reason doesn't mean that's not reckless behavior

[00:13:03] doesn't mean it's not reckless, yeah. It's still reckless behavior. Yeah. 

[00:13:08] Toliy: Okay 

[00:13:09] Eldar: You know what I mean? 

[00:13:09] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:13:11] Eldar: What, what he's saying is that he sees, like especially when the parents go away, she- he, he's baffled by the fact how far it has reached. Yes. Like how deep she really is in this- Yeah ... state of mind of not really caring. Or not giving a fuck. 

[00:13:24] Mike: Yes. And I understand where she's coming from, because I understand, like her childhood, her upbringing, her teenage years- Trauma, everything, yeah ... her relationships. I understand how she got to this place.

[00:13:34] But to see it, it's still like pizdets, like it's also pretty sick how deep the hole is, it's

[00:13:41] Eldar: it's, I don't know. And this to track it all back is the fact that like when the person is asking for help or needs the help, and Mike is the person who's trying to offer the help and give the help, right?

[00:13:52] He hits this wall where he meets the final thing where he helped her to get to the water, right? Bring the horse to the water.

[00:14:01] You can't force it to drink- Yeah ... and that's what's happening. Yeah. And the reason why you can't force it to drink is because that person really doesn't give a fuck to drink it.

[00:14:10] Toliy: Well, y- yeah, but no one can force anybody to drink. 

[00:14:12] Eldar: No, I know, I know. Yeah. That's why 

[00:14:14] Toliy: I think that- Unless you're, again, a, like sanctions based, I guess- .. or you're applying force. 

[00:14:18] Mike: The example is if you're walking down the street- 

[00:14:20] Toliy: Yeah

[00:14:20] Mike: okay? And you see $1,000, you're not gonna pick it up? 

[00:14:26] Toliy: Me? Yeah, I'll pick it up 

[00:14:28] Mike: In what world would somebody justify not doing that action? 

[00:14:33] Toliy: Yeah, but I don't think that's what's actually happening in her world. In her world, she sees a penny, and she's "I'm not picking it up." 

[00:14:39] Mike: Oh, yeah, she doesn't see it.

[00:14:40] I get it. I understand 

[00:14:41] Toliy: that. That's what I'm saying is that, like- Yeah ... no one the to, to me it's like the d- the, maybe the minor, I guess, diff- difficulty I'm having on is that you view it maybe based on your scale of what she's doing. 

[00:14:52] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:52] Toliy: And you're like, "Yo this person d- doesn't , give a fuck."

[00:14:55] But in her world, she obviously has her reasons where 

[00:14:58] Mike: she justifies- No, and I agree with that completely. Yeah, we have different scales. Yeah. But regardless of the scales, there's still a truth to it outside of my beliefs or her beliefs, right? 

[00:15:10] Toliy: So 

[00:15:13] Mike: Or are we disputing that? 

[00:15:14] Toliy: The extent and the recklessness of the behavior is probably more opinion-based, no?

[00:15:19] Eldar: If you say that... Let's just say this, right? We'll bring her kid to your house. 

[00:15:23] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:15:24] Eldar: Okay? And he starts drawing with a permanent marker on your walls. 

[00:15:29] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:15:30] Eldar: And then he takes a knife and he starts hitting the walls- Yeah ... and chipping the paint, and the sheetrock starts coming down. 

[00:15:36] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:15:36] Eldar: Okay? 

[00:15:37] Toliy: Yeah.

[00:15:37] Eldar: Mike and Emma are sitting on your couch and watching this, and no one says anything. 

[00:15:41] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:15:42] Eldar: What kind of behavior is this? 

[00:15:44] Toliy: I mean, it's retarded behavior. 

[00:15:45] Eldar: It's reckless, retarded, stupid, not caring, not giving a fuck behavior. We can be in agreeance that this is not normal behavior.

[00:15:53] Correct. Right? There's no way you can stretch that. Right. I mean, you can be in a very bad neighborhood maybe- Yeah ... you know, and a very- 

[00:15:59] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:15:59] Eldar: bad ghetto where this might- Yeah ... happen all the time. 

[00:16:01] But this doesn't happen in your house. No. Obviously, I don't go there. I don't... Yeah, I mean, I go there all the time, I don't see this happening.

[00:16:07] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:07] Eldar: No. I don't see dogs chewing on moldings or furniture. Yeah. Especially if, there is a, you know, me, for example- Yeah ... who owns the dogs, and my dogs came there and starts chewing your furniture, for example. 

[00:16:17] And I don't say anything. Yeah. I'll be like, "What the fuck?" Mm-hmm. You know what I mean?

[00:16:21] That's gonna startle you.

[00:16:22] Okay. This type of behavior. And the individual who's observing it always in that situation does little to nothing. 

[00:16:30] Toliy: What's her reasoning for it? 

[00:16:32] Eldar: She doesn't see the severity of it anymore.

[00:16:34] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:16:35] Eldar: Yeah. You know what I mean? She doesn't see it, but the, the fact is, like Mike said- Yeah ... when we as normal people see the behavior, we're gonna say, "Yo, this is wild." 

[00:16:43] Toliy: Yes. For sure, yeah. 

[00:16:45] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So there's a big disparity there. Yeah. Yeah. That's what... Mike is just baffled by the fact how deep she has gotten- Yes

[00:16:51] in this type of behavior. 

[00:16:53] Mike: Yeah, 

[00:16:53] Eldar: and the more and more time- Okay ... passes. Yeah, and the more t- time passes, it gets deeper, 

[00:16:58] Toliy: it gets worse. He's gonna need Oh, yeah, I see... Yeah, I'm see... I agree with him more from our observation a- as to maybe how she acts. 

[00:17:03] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:03] Toliy: But I mean, obviously it's not in, in her lens

[00:17:06] Mike: No, but that's for sure.

[00:17:08] Her behavior to her is regular. Yeah. And to us it's not regular, but out- No, it's, but this 

[00:17:12] Eldar: is black and white. You know what I mean? 

[00:17:13] Mike: But outside of her- This is a lot of black and white ... 

[00:17:16] Eldar: opinion 

[00:17:16] Mike: or our opinion- Yeah ... I think collectively humanity can agree this is not normal. Mm-hmm. Nobody would just sit there...

[00:17:21] If I brought him to your house and he starts doing cr- shit that he does in my house, and I just sat there, you wouldn't be like, "Oh, yeah, it's cool, Mike, uh-" 

[00:17:27] Eldar: You, yeah ... "You're not doing anything. It's fine." 

[00:17:28] Mike: You're not gonna only 

[00:17:29] Eldar: kill the kid, you're gonna kill Mike as well. 

[00:17:31] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:17:32] That's what I'm saying.

[00:17:33] Like- 

[00:17:33] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:17:33] Mike: it's agreeably society will collectively agree that this is not okay to allow the, him to behave this way. 

[00:17:40] Eldar: There should be some kind of intervention. 

[00:17:41] Mike: There should be an intervention. There should be something to prevent it. If you can't- Yeah ... prevent it, that's understandable. 

[00:17:46] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:17:46] Mike: You know, because obviously she has her reasons because sh- why she can't step in.

[00:17:50] She doesn't know how to deal with him. She's not trained. She's not educated. 

[00:17:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:17:53] Mike: She's exhausted. She's not empowered. I mean, millions of things- 

[00:17:57] Toliy: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:17:58] Mike: why she behaves this way. 

[00:17:59] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:59] Mike: But regardless of why, the behavior still exists. 

[00:18:04] Toliy: Okay. 

[00:18:04] Mike: Yeah. So I'm just saying I'm observing it, and now we're obviously more entangled now with everything that's going on- With the helping part

[00:18:13] with the helping, getting the financial services and- 

[00:18:14] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:18:15] Mike: therapy services- Social services ... social services. Yeah. I'm involved in this because I'm being asked by her, by my parents, and I'm observing how everything's happening, and every time it's like- she just doesn't care even about that?

[00:18:31] Yeah. Even though she's already reaping the benefits of everything? 

[00:18:34] Eldar: Yeah, she's seeing that stuff, yeah. 

[00:18:35] Mike: She's seeing the stuff like, "Oh, shit. Oh, wow." 

[00:18:37] Eldar: Yeah. This is great, yeah. "

[00:18:38] Mike: This is great. I got health insurance?" 

[00:18:40] Eldar: Yeah. "

[00:18:40] Mike: Holy shit. This is great. I can finally go to a doctor myself, get a checkup," you know? Mm-hmm, 

[00:18:44] Eldar: yeah.

[00:18:46] Mike: She can go to the... She's saying, "I'm excited, I'm gonna go to the dentist." She's getting all the services too because she's- 

[00:18:51] ... 

[00:18:51] Mike: Entitled to them, and plus whatever he's getting. 

[00:18:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:18:53] Mike: And it's "Oh, wow." And, but the person is still "All right, cool, yeah, I don't wanna do extra to get- 

[00:18:57] Eldar: Anything else

[00:18:58] Mike: anything else," yeah. Or 

[00:18:59] Eldar: whatever. 

[00:18:59] Mike: Even though there's still stuff to do, and yeah, and stuff that she needs to be on top of. Because she's overwhelmed, because she's stressed, it's another... her reasons why, right? Yeah. Why she just can't do this, I understand them, but it's still sick to see that.

[00:19:15] But- It's sick to see that, because- Yeah ... you're already reaping the benefits.

[00:19:17] Eldar: And, and the, the whole point of this conversation is because you're also affected by it. Like I said, there's you extending the arm, you wanna help. Mm-hmm, yeah. And obviously the goal is to get this, but when you get to the point where she needs to get that- 

[00:19:30] Mike's hands are tied. Yeah, he's- And he doesn't see, he doesn't foresee that. He's "Yo, wait a second, we, we were on, on a journey to get that. What happened?" 

[00:19:37] Toliy: Yeah, I think it's prob- You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, I think it's just the combination of, yeah, may- maybe not knowing exactly to the extent of who you're dealing with.

[00:19:44] And then two- Mm-hmm ... I also feel that, and, No, 

[00:19:48] Eldar: hold 

[00:19:48] Toliy: on ... especially it's a bit- 

[00:19:49] Eldar: Some- sometimes you don't even know who you're dealing with up until you go on that journey. Yeah. 

[00:19:53] Toliy: Sure, yes. 

[00:19:53] Eldar: This is a lot of the times. Sure. Yeah. 

[00:19:55] Toliy: Well, yeah, one, one of the thing I was gonna mention is that I think part of helping somebody, like truly helping them I do think that there's the, that the person who's helping, there's like a, almost a particular type of hell that they're gonna have to step into.

[00:20:12] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:20:13] Toliy: To help them. 

[00:20:14] Eldar: I agree. 

[00:20:14] Toliy: So they're gonna- potentially put themselves in like, in the ugliness that the other person operates and experiences. Like they're gonna have to temporarily step into those kinds of things, which can feel like appalling or "Holy shit," or that.

[00:20:32] But I feel like, yeah, like that I think is like part of the- 

[00:20:36] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:38] Toliy: I agree ... process,

[00:20:38] Eldar: I agree with that, but how do you fi- how do you break through or should you be pushing to break through in order to finally get, you know, the final boss in helping, right? And finally get that person to over that bump, or you can't. Should you step back? Yeah. Should you not even try?

[00:20:57] Mike: It's also like it's two things, right? I'm not just being asked for Emma for help. 

[00:21:01] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:21:01] Mike: My parents are also pushing the agenda, and they're not like, it's not like they're pojoísta. Like they like, if I tell them what to do, they'll do it.

[00:21:09] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:10] Mike: But a lot of times they're probably not, like they're not competent to do certain things. Yeah. That Emma may be more competent because Emma's better on the computer, or Emma can fill out applications, or Emma has, you know, a little bit better navigation stuff, where my dad he's like- 

[00:21:22] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:21:23] Mike: he's probably not that good.

[00:21:24] My mom definitely can't do any of this shit,

[00:21:26] Eldar: mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:21:26] Mike: There's two different things happening. Two different people that are trying to like- 

[00:21:30] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:21:31] Mike: advocate for him. 

[00:21:32] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:21:33] Mike: Emma's asked for help. She has her own approach and her own pojoism.

[00:21:36] Yeah. And my parents, they're like- They're more so just, "Hey," "Do everything for us." 

[00:21:41] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:21:41] Mike: You know? They're- Yeah ... that's a different thing. They're helpless. 

[00:21:44] Eldar: They're helpless. 

[00:21:45] Mike: Yeah. And they're also not empowered. 

[00:21:47] Eldar: How do you feel, how do you feel, because you said you like to help, though.

[00:21:50] How do you feel going on that journey knowing that some of the things, some of the loose ends are never gonna get tied?

[00:21:56] Mike: Yeah, I'm okay with it. 

[00:21:57] Eldar: You're okay with it? 

[00:21:57] Mike: I'm okay with it 

[00:21:58] Eldar: now, yeah. So, so now you go to the end, and then you kinda like, "All right, I'm dropping it now," like on to the next thing? What's your resolution? 

[00:22:05] Mike: Well, right now with this, all this stuff- Yeah ... I ask her, you know about 

[00:22:10] Eldar: it. Uh-huh. "

[00:22:10] Mike: Hey, what's going on with this?"

[00:22:11] Eldar: How does it make you feel that you have to keep reaching out and asking? 

[00:22:14] After how many times, you'll kinda like, "Yo, what the fuck?" 

[00:22:16] Mike: Well, the thing is, yeah, sometimes she will bring it up to me. She'll be like, "Hey, all right, so like here's what's going on." 

[00:22:20] Eldar: She's ready for it. 

[00:22:20] Mike: Well, m- I ask for sure, yeah.

[00:22:22] Eldar: Uh-huh. 

[00:22:23] Mike: Yeah, probably... Yeah, how do I feel about it? Yeah, I think that's part of the shock that, that I develop more as I observe that she doesn't care. 

[00:22:32] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:32] Mike: That's more and more I'm mo- normalizing yeah, I really don't care. 

[00:22:35] You know? Because as I'm getting to know her more and more- 

[00:22:37] The, 'cause we're like in a way collaborating on this stuff, right? 

[00:22:40] Eldar: Of course. It has to. 

[00:22:40] Mike: Like I, I'm on the calls with her- Of 

[00:22:42] Eldar: course ... 

[00:22:42] Mike: helping her answer questions- Yeah ... so she can talk to these people- Of course ... filling out the applications, giving her- The 

[00:22:46] Eldar: interviews, the, yeah Yeah ... she has to, she has to go to those meetings.

[00:22:48] Mike: Yeah, yeah. She's going, and she- oh, phone meetings for now- Yeah ... but I'm on the calls. 

[00:22:52] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:22:52] Mike: And I'm having these conversations, so we have things we're collaborating on. Yeah. And I'm seeing she's not doing what she needs to do. 

[00:22:58] Eldar: Yeah, on her part, yeah. 

[00:22:58] Mike: On her part, and she's a little bit more relaxed, where I'm like, "Hey, this lady told you you have to be on top of this."

[00:23:04] Of course. You know, these government agencies- 

[00:23:06] Eldar: Of course, 

[00:23:06] Mike: of course ... you can't just fill out the application- No ... and be like, "All right, cool," you know. We'll 

[00:23:08] Eldar: wait three years. 

[00:23:09] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause they'll make you wait three years. 

[00:23:11] Eldar: For sure. 

[00:23:12] Mike: Yeah, this, the, even the one of the ladies, she said "Hey-" You 

[00:23:14] Eldar: have to follow up.

[00:23:15] Mike: Yeah, you have to follow up. Mm-hmm. Yeah, another lady said "Yeah, you're on the list. You got through very fast because you have a good advocate." 

[00:23:20] Eldar: Mm-hmm. "

[00:23:20] Mike: But there's people who was waiting for services for years," she said. Mm. 

[00:23:23] Eldar: Fuck. 

[00:23:24] Mike: Yeah. Like therapy and stuff like that for him 

[00:23:28] So yeah, and I'm, I'm becoming like I guess more and more...

[00:23:33] like I said, as I'm getting to know her more- 

[00:23:35] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:23:35] Mike: and seeing to what extent she's like 

[00:23:37] overwhelmed 

[00:23:38] or 

[00:23:38] Eldar: Sure ... Yeah ... 

[00:23:39] Mike: like not giving a fuck, I'm more and more okay with "Hey, if it doesn't resolve, it doesn't get resolved." Mm-hmm. You know? It's like it is what it is. 

[00:23:45] Eldar: How, how does her bad attitude towards this uh, somebody who doesn't give a fuck, right?

[00:23:49] Mm-hmm. Obviously, quote-unquote, "has a bad attitude", let's just say, right? Mm-hmm. Towards life, towards helping themselves, getting out of that. How does that play a factor of actually us maybe judging them for being deserving of actual help? 

[00:24:01] Mike: That's a good question.

[00:24:02] Eldar: What I'm saying is this, right? Here you are, you bringing a nice platter of fruit or ice cream. 

[00:24:07] Mike: Hmm. 

[00:24:08] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? To this 

[00:24:09] Mike: person. Yeah. 

[00:24:10] Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:11] Eldar: You're like, "Hey," "I'm about to hook you up."

[00:24:12] You know what I mean? And they start taking the fruit and they start dropping it on the floor.

[00:24:16] Cold ice cream and cold fruit right on the floor- Yeah ... in front of you. They're not taking it, they're not eating it, they're not benefiting from it. 

[00:24:22] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:23] Eldar: At some what, what point do you realize "Oh, this person doesn't even want this." Doesn't want this help or they don't don't deserve it.

[00:24:30] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:30] Eldar: You're associating it with a bad attitude, right? A person is not being- Yeah ... like- I,

[00:24:35] Mike: I didn't think about it as like a bad attitude, 

[00:24:36] Eldar: but- But is it affecting you? Is it affecting me? In a certain type of way, where it's like you kinda "Oh, you don't want help?

[00:24:42] Fuck you then." You know what I mean? Like- No, no, I'm not like- I'm not saying that, but like- I'm not like that, no ... it can develop towards that- Mm ... where it's like, "Oh, fuck off." 

[00:24:47] Toliy: Well, no, I, I think e- even in Mike's case, it probably, temporarily hur- hurts him- 

[00:24:52] Eldar: That's what I'm saying ... 

[00:24:52] Toliy: until he may- maybe- Adjust

[00:24:54] he has a better understanding of- Yeah ... what's going on. But when it's unexpected, like things that are not happening, I guess, in, in the process, yeah, I think it hurts him. 

[00:25:03] Eldar: There you go. Mike? 'Cause you're doing your side of things, right? Yeah. And then obviously, like if, I understand if you're helping was completely effortless.

[00:25:10] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:11] Eldar: Right? It's so easy, but the truth of the matter is the hoops that you're jumping through- Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a lot ... right 

[00:25:14] Mike: now, they're 

[00:25:15] Eldar: hard hoops. 

[00:25:15] Mike: It's a lot of stuff. 

[00:25:16] Eldar: It's annoying probably. 

[00:25:17] Mike: It's a lot of, a lot of paperwork, a lot of research- 

[00:25:19] Eldar: Correct. Correct ... 

[00:25:20] Mike: a lot of different agencies.

[00:25:20] Eldar: This is not uh, "Hey, let's, let's look for the miles in order to go on, uh- 

[00:25:24] Mike: Yeah ... 

[00:25:24] Eldar: Emirates to Greece." 

[00:25:25] Mike: Exactly. 

[00:25:26] Eldar: It's a different type of help. 

[00:25:27] Mike: It's different, yeah. 

[00:25:27] Eldar: You know? Yeah. It's a very fucking deal. Yeah. It's like going to DMV- 

[00:25:31] Mike: It's like going 

[00:25:31] Eldar: to 

[00:25:31] Mike: the DMV, yeah ... 

[00:25:32] Eldar: for fuck sakes. You know, ev- ev- everybody- Every time

[00:25:33] who's listening, especially from United States, if you're listening from UK, you, I don't know the, the version of DMV- It's real hard ... it's where you go to get your driver's license. 

[00:25:41] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:25:41] Eldar: And those government agencies, holy fuck. 

[00:25:43] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:25:44] Eldar: You know, dealing with those types of agencies is a fucking headache. 

[00:25:47] Mike: Yeah.

[00:25:47] Eldar: So I know that that's your type of help even though you like to help people. 

[00:25:50] It can be draining, especially- Mm-hmm ... if the other person is not pulling a little bit of the, of their- Yeah ... side of things. 

[00:25:56] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:25:56] Toliy: But also, when, when we're saying, I yeah, I think I, the, this I think the main issue I have with the phrase of, like, when we're saying someone doesn't give a fuck.

[00:26:03] If you really sat them down and asked them, they would say they give a fuck, right? 

[00:26:06] Eldar: 100%. Yeah, of course. Every time. Every 

[00:26:07] Toliy: time. So i- is it really them not giving a fuck, or is it just their lack of a- awareness just more to, to it? 

[00:26:16] Eldar: Okay, so go back to the thing. 

[00:26:18] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:26:19] Eldar: Her kid is in our in your house, and he's now slicing your couch with a knife.

[00:26:24] Yeah. And she's sitting right there and not saying a word. Lack of awareness or lack of what? 

[00:26:31] Toliy: If they were someone 

[00:26:31] Eldar: else- She doesn't give a fuck about you, correct? 

[00:26:33] Toliy: Well, it, yeah, but 

[00:26:34] Eldar: it's- She doesn't give a fuck about your furniture. She doesn't give a fuck about your house, and she doesn't respect you, correct?

[00:26:40] Yeah. This is what you would link it to, correct? 

[00:26:42] Toliy: Well, no, I, I would yeah, 

[00:26:43] Eldar: I would say that- Or what, what would you 

[00:26:44] Toliy: say? Like- Yeah, this would be, like, a mentally ill person. 

[00:26:46] Eldar: Well, there you go Yeah. 

[00:26:50] Toliy: But I wouldn't say that they don't like... Yeah, I guess , to me like I agree in how they're acting like they don't give a fuck, right?

[00:26:57] Mm-hmm. But I don't think that they don't actually not give a fuck. Is it like, I don't know. Sh- it like it just sounds weird 

[00:27:02] Mike: to me. But a lot of it, like in life is a lot of it for sure, it's uh, moment to moment. In the moment if you have a logical reasonable conversation with her, she's gonna tell you "Hey, yeah, let's do this, I'll do this."

[00:27:12] And she will do what's needed. 

[00:27:13] But after that moment's passed, she's gone. She's somewhere else. She's thinking about her own problems, her own things that she wants, she's- Yeah ... she's, she's yeah, she wanted a new dog. She wanted a new purse. She wants things. She wants to do stuff.

[00:27:28] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:27:29] Mike: She doesn't, you know- 

[00:27:31] Eldar: She doesn't wanna deal with 

[00:27:31] Mike: it ... she doesn't wanna deal with it. And like I said, I get it. I understand. Like this shit, the situation is crazy. To have a child like this, it's very difficult. Like- Yeah ... have a child like this in the family is very difficult. It takes a crazy toll on everybody, you know?

[00:27:46] Yeah. And I understand what she's going through, and I'm not saying it's like... I think there's she's not intentionally sitting there and being a pajoist. I think it's because of what she's going through, that's what's developed for many, many years of like unchecked behavior and not trying to fix the situation and- Hopelessness

[00:28:01] hopelessness, hope- helplessness. Well- It's like 

[00:28:04] Toliy: that's what it is ... well, it's that, but it's also like I think it was, it's also part of what you were saying before, how someone's raised and to what standards are like- 

[00:28:10] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:28:10] Toliy: okay you know, my sister has a dog. 

[00:28:13] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:13] Toliy: She lives in my, my mother's house.

[00:28:16] It is her house. 

[00:28:16] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:28:17] That is shit. 

[00:28:18] Toliy: Obviously she lives for free. 

[00:28:19] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:28:19] Toliy: The dog also, I mean, now it's- 

[00:28:21] Eldar: Better ... 

[00:28:22] Toliy: way better. 90% better.

[00:28:23] But the dog for a very long time- Would shit in the house

[00:28:28] and pee in the house

[00:28:29] Eldar: on the carpet 

[00:28:30] Toliy: And for most of it, it was on a pad.

[00:28:32] But also no one's home all day, so that dog poops in the morning. It could be sitting there all day- 

[00:28:36] ... 

[00:28:36] Toliy: Up until someone like my dad goes over there and he's "Yo, what the hell is that?"

[00:28:40] Then he, he notices. Mm-hmm. But it's not like my sister goes out of her way to go clean it up or go check or like- 

[00:28:46] Eldar: Mm.

[00:28:46] It just sits there. 

[00:28:46] Toliy: Yeah, it just sit- sits, sits there. And so people who do have the awareness and who I guess give a fuck- Point it out. 

[00:28:52] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:28:52] Toliy: Right? 

[00:28:53] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:53] Toliy: Uh, notice. 

[00:28:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:28:55] Toliy: But the reason that this happens to begin with is, yeah this person's not aware is one thing, and also they were taught a particular standard.

[00:29:04] Like cleanliness and all that kind of stuff was not, is not a standard in my, like my family's house, for example.

[00:29:10] Mm-hmm. It's just not how they operate.

[00:29:12] What's clean to them, to somebody else, they would categorize it as filthy or dirty. But then there's also, again, even more levels to this-

[00:29:19] where they would categorize maybe someone else as dirty or, like- Yeah ... filthy, for example.

[00:29:24] And it keeps going down the chain as to what that family's standard is. Yeah, like when I go into Mike's house, Mike's house is spotless.

[00:29:30] I always feel that. Yeah. And everyone's "Oh, wow, I can't believe that's there, that's there."

[00:29:35] That's not the case ever in my house, and it's not the case not even close ever in my family's house. 

[00:29:39] The standard there was completely different. 

[00:29:41] So to me, sort of the standard in my head personally to change in my place to me, my place is like 10X above that.

[00:29:47] But also I continue to slowly evolve on that by also getting challenged by people who have a higher standard- 

[00:29:54] Eldar: Yeah

[00:29:54] Toliy: for example, than me, and have more awareness than me of yo, like- 

[00:29:57] Eldar: Sh- Yeah ... shit sitting around on the carpet all day- Yeah ... is not acceptable. 

[00:30:01] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:30:03] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:30:03] Toliy: Absolutely. I 

[00:30:04] Eldar: mean, just no matter how you spin it, you know what I mean? 

[00:30:05] Toliy: Absolutely. 

[00:30:06] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. Unless you fucking prefer that kind of shit, but that's weird.

[00:30:11] Nobody prefers fucking dog shit, smelling dog shit. No. You know what I mean? Yeah. Seeping into a fucking carpet. No, definitely not. Nobody does that. Or then stepping on it, you know? 

[00:30:19] Toliy: Yeah, so if someone observed that, it's wait, you're... Like in, in some households that are, for example, strict or like discipline-based, right?

[00:30:26] Al- also, like my mom was never discipline-based.

[00:30:29] Or never very strict, never enforced any kind of rules really. Mm-hmm. Even if she enforced rules, she would eventually just, you know-

[00:30:34] whatever after a while. 

[00:30:35] Eldar: Did you start wiping your ass after you shit? 

[00:30:36] Toliy: No. Okay. In some of those houses are like they, they would say, "What the fuck?

[00:30:39] You living in my place like, rent-free. You have a dog. You get free food, and you're not taking care of this? Get the fuck out 

[00:30:48] Eldar: of here." Fuck 

[00:30:48] Toliy: out, yeah. "You stupid." 

[00:30:50] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:30:50] Toliy: That would be the attitude of some, some parents- Yeah ... for example. They'd be like, "Yo yeah, like you're not following my rules.

[00:30:56] That's it." You know?

[00:30:58] Sh- Shannon Sharpe, he grew up, for example, in a very, like the football player, he, he grew up in a very discipline-oriented like military style family where-

[00:31:09] whatever, like the, uh, he, he grew up mainly with his grandparents.

[00:31:13] As like his mo- mother/father figure.

[00:31:15] I think his dad was like an alcoholic and like in jail and stuff like that and whatever. But he's a complete disciplinarian in how he is as per, as As a person ... and he's a forever like hungry person also because of it. He can never not be poor mentality or you know, any, any of that, but he was in a very strict household.

[00:31:33] He worked like 16 hours a day as like a kid. 

[00:31:35] Like a tiny kid working two, two different jobs. Extremely strict. "Sir- sir, like- Sir, yes, sir ... mister. Yes, sir. Better not have a bad attitude, you get smacked, you know? Those kind of standards, like clean... the, like those basic things of not cleaning up after yourself that does- that, that, that didn't exist in their household.

[00:31:52] You could just get beaten. 

[00:31:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:31:54] Toliy: Yeah. So he grew up with that kind of way, and then he was also, it sounded like, that kind of father and just, like, how he-

[00:31:58] very military you know- Mm-hmm ... very strict, strict on top of it. So my, my, my main point is that, yeah, I think this is a result of the standard that she has and that also, like- Of course

[00:32:08] the people that they're with. Of course. 

[00:32:09] Eldar: Well, no, I don't think- Of course. Yeah ... no, no, well, no, in, in her case though, Toliy, I think that it's not that the standard that she has, I think that it's a standard that she's now developed and now kind of like inherited, I guess, to some degree. Not inherited, devel- developed- Learned

[00:32:22] I would say. Learn- no, not even- Mm-hmm ... because I'm sure that, you know, when she didn't have her own child certain behaviors like that, if she ever saw them, she'd be like, "Yo, that's bad." Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:30] Toliy: No, 

[00:32:30] Eldar: no, but I'm saying that like- You know what I mean? But then 

[00:32:31] when 

[00:32:32] Eldar: she got into the stress- No, what I 

[00:32:33] Toliy: think, you know-

[00:32:35] and the stress worked ... that disrespect- Exactly. Yes, exactly ... that disrespect and that kind of way, this was always how she was, at least in my observations and everything I've heard. This is not a person that respected themselves. 

[00:32:43] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:32:43] Toliy: So when they have a child- 

[00:32:44] Mike: And that's, yeah. But it only got worse, I would say.

[00:32:46] It only got worse. Yes. Because the person got more tired, more frustrated. More... Yeah, more tired- Yes ... more frustrated, more on their plate. Of course. No, which is normal. Yeah. 

[00:32:51] Toliy: But that person was not it wasn't someone that was like a tidy- She didn't have a good base ... yeah, a tidy, respectful to themselves- Yeah

[00:32:57] care about themselves- Yeah ... high self-esteem individual, right? 

[00:33:00] Mike: Yeah. No. No. Definitely not. 

[00:33:01] Toliy: Yeah. So it's only gonna get more uh, as Tommy would say right now, exacerbated. 

[00:33:08] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:08] Toliy: Mm-hmm. Yes. 

[00:33:09] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:33:09] Toliy: The more that that person piled on. 

[00:33:12] Eldar: So you're back to the fact that from Mike's situation, right, where he's

[00:33:15] the one who's helping. What does he do? 

[00:33:18] Toliy: Well, I think one, yeah, hav- having maybe a better understanding of the scope and then also the understanding that, hey, you're gonna step into maybe a potential hell or a potential really-... shitty outside of what your standards-

[00:33:32] scenarios are for temporary moments in time where you're gonna have to u- like, use your own abilities to get yourself out of that. And obviously it's important- ... to not get stuck into it. Oh, 

[00:33:42] Mike: yeah. Yeah. 

[00:33:43] Toliy: You know? 

[00:33:43] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:33:43] Toliy: Yeah. 100%. And knowing that "Hey, this is gonna exist." There, there's gonna be a time where maybe you work four hours or you did this and this and this for somebody, and the other person can't even do a 15-minute task to like- Yeah

[00:33:53] you know, do what they're supposed to do. It's but I do think a good, I think just in general rule of thumb, like your desire to help somebody can never exceed their desire for the help. Otherwise, there will always be some level of static, I feel like, between you and the individual and the whole process as a whole.

[00:34:09] Eldar: I agree, but I thought you were gonna say something else. I thought you were gonna say your desire to help others should never supersede your own self-respect for your own time and who you are. Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:18] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:34:18] Toliy: Y- yes. Yeah, I mean, but that, that is already- Yeah ... given. Yeah. What I'm saying is that oftentimes people wanna help- 

[00:34:23] Eldar: Because that's where the hurt happens.

[00:34:24] Toliy: Well, well, yes, but it also happens when your desire to help is not the same level and, and energy as their desire to be helped or to improve. 

[00:34:33] Eldar: Agreed. Yeah. 

[00:34:34] Then you have to evaluate why do you have that type of a desire to help- Mm-hmm ... in the first place. 

[00:34:37] Toliy: Yeah. Every teacher, I think- Yes ... wants a ready and willing student with a notepad ready to fucking go, can't wait to wake up and- Yes

[00:34:43] learn the next day. 

[00:34:44] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:34:44] Toliy: Mm-hmm. But we all know that the reality of that it doesn't happen.

[00:34:48] So, Being very careful with w- may- maybe how much to help and how, what speed and like-

[00:34:54] how fast can the person go or where what, what to expect from them. I think that- ... that is probably where like the, the salvation of your own sanity probably lies.

[00:35:04] Yeah. 

[00:35:04] Eldar: That's

[00:35:04] Toliy: right. My- Because to you- Yeah ... may- maybe just getting that one application in, like that might be like, "Hey, we can bang this all out in a week." That might be like to that person, that, that was like a six months-

[00:35:13] Mike: yeah ... thing. No, no, I understand. I understand. No, I, I don't feel like, uh, any- 

[00:35:18] Eldar: Resentment?

[00:35:19] Mike: No, no, I don't feel like that. Okay. To me it's more like- Baffling ... baffling, shocking, sick and like- Also 

[00:35:25] Toliy: in this process, it's also, I think it hits home more and it's more painful when there's not, when there's a third party involved that you're connected to. You know? If it's like my sister's dog for example- Yeah

[00:35:37] she needs to get trained properly but she's not, like you kind of have that thing- Affective ... where it's hey, yeah, like you, you would wish for the dog to be- 

[00:35:44] Eldar: Good ... 

[00:35:44] Toliy: better trained or in a better- Yeah ... scenario. Mm-hmm. Or like you wish the kid to be in a better- But your, your hands are tied ... scenario or like that.

[00:35:49] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:35:49] Toliy: But yeah, part of it is being respectful that like, that like of you not being, like you're not the, the main decision maker. You're not the main 

[00:35:58] Eldar: which is a hard thing to swallow. 

[00:35:59] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. If when you're involved in it, yeah. Because yeah, you could have interactions with the, either if it's a dog or a child or whoever, and they could be sweet and like really nice.

[00:36:07] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:36:07] Toliy: And you could get definitely particular uh, emotions from them. But yeah, I think part of it is, is yes, having that respect of the process that, that yeah, it might end up poorly because you have a, uneducated, overwhelmed, and like-

[00:36:24] disinterested almost parent, for example.

[00:36:25] Mike: Yeah. Or like- No, and I, I- ... owner, for example ... uh, I think I, I'm okay with that more, uh, more or less I'm like understanding of the situation. I'm not like, uh, angry or upset or have anything towards her, even with her like not, doing- Getting to the, drinking the water, you know, if you wanna call it that So you're 

[00:36:43] Eldar: not really affected.

[00:36:43] Well, it's just good then. 

[00:36:44] Mike: Yeah, yeah. But I it's just, I think it's like a interesting thing to observe- But, 

[00:36:48] Toliy: but- You know ... but I think it's impossible to not be affected, no? I think if you're in it, you still get affected. It's very hard- Well, no, that's 

[00:36:53] Eldar: what I'm saying though.

[00:36:53] Look, if Mike discovers some kind of a program, right? And the program he does, he does 90% of the help, and he wants for the program to be fruitful and actualized in their home for this kid so he can be better, he's foreseeing those things. Yeah. It's an, your imaginations goes there- Yeah ... and, and visions- Well, no, yeah.

[00:37:10] To not get hurt, 

[00:37:10] Mike: I think, 

[00:37:10] Eldar: is impossible ... my, 

[00:37:12] Mike: my, it's, it's a hard 

[00:37:12] Eldar: thing 

[00:37:12] Mike: to, to 

[00:37:13] Eldar: do ... 

[00:37:13] Mike: my, uh, my thing is, yeah, for him- You 

[00:37:15] Eldar: visualize success. 

[00:37:17] Mike: Yeah. The thing is I know, I know first of all, we're already seeing success. He's getting help. They're getting help.

[00:37:22] People gonna be coming.

[00:37:23] This stuff is already in motion. A lot of stuff's in motion- Yeah ... and it worked out well. 

[00:37:27] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:37:27] Mike: Fast. And obviously there's a lot more to do. You can get him into the completely best school. 

[00:37:33] Eldar: Yeah. You 

[00:37:33] Mike: know? And I sent her that. 

[00:37:35] Eldar: Yeah, I remember that. You sent that. 

[00:37:36] Mike: I sent her that. Yeah. I drafted the letter.

[00:37:38] All she had to do was bring it to the town.

[00:37:40] Good. And I, I already forgot about that, that I told her- Sign off on 

[00:37:42] that,

[00:37:42] she has to send this to the town, and the town has to pay for this.

[00:37:45] But she never took it, you know? But I already like, like I di- I forgot about it because, again, I'm already on the- You moved on

[00:37:52] I moved on, you know? I didn't understand the operation flow here, you know? Like- 

[00:37:58] Eldar: You don't wanna become a nagger. 

[00:38:00] Mike: Yeah. I'm not gonna become a nagger. I don't wanna bother her. Yeah. And I don't wanna feel like I'm begging her to fucking do something. And I definitely don't wanna c- feel comfortable in that place.

[00:38:06] Eldar: Yeah. Why would you wanna put yourself in that position too? No. 

[00:38:09] Mike: Yeah. I don't. 

[00:38:10] Eldar: I think I, we talked about this before where, There's time and place for everything, obviously, and especially when it comes to teaching and these are some of the things that you're kind of gathering some receipts for her- 

[00:38:19] For the future conversation. 

[00:38:20] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:38:21] Eldar: That when you need, when you do finally, when she's ready to sit down and have that conversation with you about some stuff, you're gonna have a little bit more ammo in order to make your point- 

[00:38:29] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:38:29] Eldar: stick. 

[00:38:30] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:38:30] Eldar: Right? 

[00:38:30] Mike: Oh, yeah. 

[00:38:31] Eldar: Not necessarily to scold her, but scold her to a degree where it's look, Emma, you know, like- 

[00:38:35] Mike: Oh yeah, I mean, I already took jabs at her. 

[00:38:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:38:38] Mike: 'Cause when- Yeah ... Gary tries to bring up some, my dad tries to bring up some things about- Yeah ... emma being Emma- 

[00:38:43] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:38:43] Mike: and she's "No, I'm not like this," and then she thinks I'm gonna back her. I'm like, "No, actually you are exactly like this."

[00:38:48] And she's expecting me to be like, "Hey Mike, back me up." I'm like, "No, this is... I, I'm, I know you are." 

[00:38:52] Eldar: Yeah. This is already proven. 

[00:38:53] Mike: This is already under- understood, proven,

[00:38:55] Eldar: yeah. 

[00:38:56] Mike: So I'm already enjoying having fun with it- 

[00:38:57] Eldar: Okay

[00:38:58] Mike: and trolling her or- 

[00:38:59] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:39:00] Mike: when it, when it comes about. 

[00:39:01] Eldar: And I think that slowly, I think slowly you'll start moving that needle. 

[00:39:04] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:39:04] Eldar: Yeah. Slowly. Very slowly. 

[00:39:07] Mike: Yeah. Which 

[00:39:07] Eldar: is good. 

[00:39:07] Mike: Yeah. Back to what you were saying about the self-respect, I think , before I started thinking about myself and working on myself and being respectful towards myself and showing myself some love, I definitely helped in the wrong ways and I definitely ate a lot of shit for it.

[00:39:20] Now, I don't feel like,

[00:39:23] ... 

[00:39:23] Mike: I do that. I don't feel like I'm chasing people to help them or, I don't have that same- ... thing I had because I also have my own shit that I wanna help myself with, that I wanna work on. 

[00:39:30] Eldar: That's right. 

[00:39:31] Mike: And I'm prioritizing my stuff because I know that I can, I can more count on myself, you know?

[00:39:37] Eldar: Yeah. And you shouldn't be neglecting yourself. 

[00:39:38] Mike: Yeah. And I don't wanna end up in a situation like, yeah. Yeah, that thing with Oleg years ago, I remember it all the time, like when, we were wanting to do a business together. 

[00:39:48] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:48] Mike: Mechanic stuff, and then he was MIA and then I had a conversation with you and I was like, "Yeah, that's exactly what happened."

[00:39:54] Like- Yeah, you were frustrated ... you broke it down for me, I understood, and I was like, "Yeah, I'm not rushing anywhere." Yeah. 'Cause I can rush, bro, I can out-lap anybody, yeah. When it comes to getting shit done in those kind of worlds.

[00:40:04] But I'm not gonna be the- Mm ... holding the torch if you're not even on the field, you know?

[00:40:12] Eldar: Even on the field, yeah. For 

[00:40:13] Mike: sure. Because that's what a lot of times people, when they find those moments- So what, so, so then what's 

[00:40:16] Eldar: happening to your identity as a helper then? 

[00:40:19] Mike: I think it's probably getting more refined. 

[00:40:22] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:40:22] Mike: Yeah. At least I'm helping, but without an attachment and without like- Are you 

[00:40:26] Eldar: still getting fulfilled the way you maybe were looking for to be fulfilled?

[00:40:30] Mike: I think I am, actually. Yeah, I was thinking about it you know, a- am I extracting stuff- Yeah ... when I help people? Because people do ask me for help, and- 

[00:40:38] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:40:38] Mike: I enjoy helping people- Yeah ... because I, well, I like to learn new things, and- Mm ... I have some expertise in some things, so I definitely- Yeah ... enjoy it, and I enjoy to see success in the things that I understand.

[00:40:49] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:40:50] Mike: And help that, to help people in their lives or whatever, so I do. I'm happy. Yeah, I feel like I'm receiving stuff. Before I don't think I did was able to extract the good stuff.

[00:41:01] Now I think I'm understanding it more. And I think I I think that helps with more belief in myself and confidence- 

[00:41:07] And self-esteem. 

[00:41:08] Eldar: Well, you finally found for yourself that line that we're talking about.

[00:41:11] Where you can help, but you know when to pull back if you need to. Yeah. Not hold any attachments to the outcomes. 

[00:41:17] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:41:17] Eldar: Maybe assess the situation properly, who to help, how to help- 

[00:41:20] Mike: Yeah ... 

[00:41:20] Eldar: with what. 

[00:41:21] Mike: Yes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the help is different.

[00:41:24] You know, with my dad, it's a different kind of help.

[00:41:26] With, you know, with Emma it's different. With some friends who ask for help, it's also different, you know? And the approach is different.

[00:41:34] You know? Or with my dad- Well, 

[00:41:36] Eldar: I'm, I'm asking you to help me tomorrow build this gazebo. Yeah. So bring your thinking cap on, 'cause I'm gonna make you read the instructions.

[00:41:42] Mike: Oh, yeah. Well, I did. I did last time, so I'll do it again. 

[00:41:45] Eldar: All right, good. Thank you. 

[00:41:46] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:41:46] Eldar: Thank you. Yeah. 

[00:41:49] Mike: Yeah. I think, Yeah, it's the, the right, right, tool for the right job, you know?

[00:41:55] Yeah. In this case. And I think it, I think it's, uh, like a generally a hard thing to find the right tool for the right job, how to help and what kind of help, and if the help is actually needed or if it's just like a- 

[00:42:07] Eldar: Necessary ... 

[00:42:07] Mike: complaint. 

[00:42:08] Eldar: If it's timely. 

[00:42:08] Mike: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:42:09] Eldar: If it's at the right time, yeah. 

[00:42:10] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. But, and I do agree, yeah, it's... I feel as well that it's innate in us that we wanna help people. 

[00:42:16] Eldar: Yeah. I find that, that if you have the ability, if you have the a- Well, no.

[00:42:20] If you are, like, just a helping person, I think that there's so much energy baked in into helping or giving others-

[00:42:26] that can grow you exponentially-

[00:42:28] as a person. 

[00:42:29] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:42:29] Eldar: And obviously help others in return. Yeah. I think a long time ago, Toliy, we had a whole conversation, if you go back to episode four or five- 

[00:42:37] Mike: Mm-hmm

[00:42:37] Eldar: I believe, the question was who benefits more? 

[00:42:40] Mike: Mm. 

[00:42:41] Eldar: The giver or the taker? 

[00:42:42] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:42:42] Eldar: This is what we discussed. We discussed the fact that the giver, the person who's helping- Mm ... actually benefits a lot more, than the actual taker. 

[00:42:51] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:42:51] Eldar: Because there's a whole journey for them, right?

[00:42:54] And that's, that's filled with so much learning and also just good energy- 

[00:42:58] ... 

[00:42:58] Eldar: That's filled in it. Yeah. Yeah What do you think? 

[00:43:03] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah, I just think that also the relationship between someone who's helping, uh, like the teacher and the student or the helper, like the helpee,

[00:43:10] it's a very delicate and very difficult scenario to to navigate. For me it was definitely you know, like the recent experience I had for example, when I was trying to teach Harris, for example uh, sales things, that, that to me was, a very interesting experience.

[00:43:26] But I also find a lot of purpose being put in that kind of position to to do that, to train or to help or to, to be involved in that kind of way. Yeah. That, that's actually something that internally I feel like I have unlimited energy- 

[00:43:40] Eldar: For ... 

[00:43:41] Toliy: for. 

[00:43:41] Eldar: I agree. 

[00:43:42] Toliy: You know? 

[00:43:42] Eldar: I agree.

[00:43:42] Toliy: Like I do feel a different thing for it, or like a zippiness, you know? 

[00:43:46] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:43:46] Toliy: Mm-hmm. To, to it. 

[00:43:47] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:43:48] Toliy: You know?

[00:43:48] Eldar: Do you think that that's innate in all of us? 

[00:43:50] Toliy: Yeah, like e- even when he told me the idea of "Hey, why, why don't we get one of these people?" I wasn't even thinking about it you know, to work overseas.

[00:43:56] But then I to me the idea was good and right away I was like, "Oh yeah, now, you know, I can train someone. I could, you know, do, do that." Of 

[00:44:01] Eldar: course, yeah. 

[00:44:01] Toliy: And that, that definitely, internally makes me excited.

[00:44:04] I don't have to force myself to do anything for that kind of-

[00:44:07] process, I enjoy it.

[00:44:08] But that, that type of relationship and doing that is a very, again, delicate, because I also think for proper help the person who's being helped, they have to put themselves in, like a vulnerable scenario almost. There, there's a very delicate vulnerability there.

[00:44:25] Eldar: Yeah. Well, it's, you almost need a requirement of humility. 

[00:44:29] Toliy: Yes. So when that person shows you that kind of, I guess, uh, respect almost- Mm-hmm ... to, to, to act in that kind of way, it's a very delicate as to, like, how their brain how they get molded almost.

[00:44:42] It's, it's a very important time. 

[00:44:44] Eldar: I agree. 

[00:44:44] Toliy: You know? I 

[00:44:45] Eldar: agree. 

[00:44:45] Toliy: , It's like early stages of a child.

[00:44:47] You know?

[00:44:48] And if you mishandle that, it's very difficult to navigate out of, and I definitely learned that. 

[00:44:53] Eldar: The hard way. 

[00:44:54] Toliy: Yeah, the hard way. Or, or the easy way, I guess some, some would call it.

[00:44:57] Eldar: Yes, for sure. Yes. 

[00:44:59] Toliy: You know? Definitely. So, yeah, I think ju- just overall, the process of helping is, i- it's the information that needs to be helped is the easy part. I think we always all see that. Yes. You know, like we're not lacking any kind of resource- Can't figure out how the pyramids were built here ... resource. This is not what we're day-to-day like-

[00:45:16] fighting with, that we have no idea how, how this is all happening. It's a matter of how to- Approach it ... say it in the right ways. - Act correctly, speak correctly, do correctly. That to me is like all of the hard part about it. 

[00:45:29] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:45:30] Toliy: And I forget I was trying to tie to this, but...

[00:45:32] Eldar: you made a very good emphasis on the fact that this whole process of helping someone is very delicate. 

[00:45:38] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:45:38] Eldar: And it's, it's very important to really pay attention on how do you do it, and not slack on any of those- Mm-hmm ... those steps. 

[00:45:45] Toliy: Yeah, 

[00:45:46] Eldar: yeah. Otherwise, that that, that thing can be broken really quickly.

[00:45:49] Toliy: Also I think funny is that there are scenarios where I've done, where I've b- where I've tried to be like oppressive in my approach- 

[00:45:54] Eldar: Yes ... 

[00:45:54] Toliy: of, of hel- of what I thought was help- That comes natural to you ... helping, yes. Well, well, dead more, you know? And, uh- 

[00:46:01] Eldar: That was 

[00:46:01] Toliy: the 

[00:46:01] Eldar: go-to. 

[00:46:02] Toliy: Yeah.

[00:46:02] Mm-hmm. And I also noticed that like some of those people where I was trying to do that with- 

[00:46:07] ... 

[00:46:07] Toliy: I have better relationships being completely hands-off and not helping almost at all now, than at times where I thought that where I was like, hey like we're doing good here.

[00:46:14] What- Yeah ... what, what are you saying? 

[00:46:15] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:46:16] Toliy: You know? 

[00:46:16] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:46:16] Toliy: So it's almost like you're helping potential some people like not helping them at all-

[00:46:21] and you could have a better relationship with them than when, in what you think is like really helping them and really being there and you know- 

[00:46:28] Eldar: Yeah, I agree

[00:46:29] trying to- I agree ... 

[00:46:30] Toliy: to do something. 

[00:46:31] Eldar: I agree. 

[00:46:31] Toliy: Because their, their resistance to your help- 

[00:46:34] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:46:35] Toliy: and- 

[00:46:36] Eldar: Says a lot ... 

[00:46:37] Toliy: s- yeah, it says a lot. Yeah. And you should be respectful of it- 

[00:46:40] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:46:41] Toliy: to not invade someone's space and not to like,

[00:46:44] Eldar: Affect their trajectory of learning.

[00:46:46] Toliy: Yeah. But yeah, yeah- In a force- ... because all the time- In a forceful way ... you could be thinking like, hey, like this is a no-brainer great thing. 

[00:46:51] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:46:52] Toliy: Next thing you know, like you're being viewed upon as like the bad guy here, and you're like, "The fuck?" 

[00:46:56] Eldar: How did I get here? Yeah. How am I the 

[00:46:59] Toliy: bad guy? Yeah, and that happened to me plenty of times.

[00:47:00] Eldar: Yeah. Like- Well, I, you know, we talked about this a lot too on the podcast. 

[00:47:02] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:47:03] Eldar: Previous podcast. Yeah. With your mom, with your sister, yeah. 

[00:47:05] Toliy: Yeah, you know? Yeah. So 

[00:47:06] Eldar: with your dad. 

[00:47:07] Toliy: My mom made a comment like I don't know, like a week ago. So she was like, "Oh, I wanna..." And she's made this comment plenty of times to where she was like, "Oh, I wanna, I wanna redo our whole house do a full house-

[00:47:17] renovation." I'm like, "Stop it, Mom." You know, like-

[00:47:19] yeah. And she said this to to Jackson. Mm-hmm. And I was like, "Jackson, she's not gonna do shit." 

[00:47:23] Eldar: She's not serious. 

[00:47:24] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah, she's not serious 'cause, 'cause he, he was right away of "Oh you know, I got cousins this or like this-

[00:47:28] or that." Yeah. And she's "Yeah, you're not serious." 

[00:47:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:47:31] Toliy: You know, maybe she'll do the rug somewhere in one room. 

[00:47:33] I was making a joke out of- 

[00:47:34] Eldar: Yeah 

[00:47:35] Toliy: And then she called me yesterday and she was like, "Hey, I wanna seek your counsel on- 

[00:47:39] ... 

[00:47:39] Toliy: Potentially, like I am serious about this renovation and I wanna know what you think about..."

[00:47:42] She said she wants to have a serious- 

[00:47:44] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:47:44] Toliy: conversation about it. 

[00:47:45] Eldar: Okay. Mm. 

[00:47:46] Toliy: You know? That she's you know, she wants to maybe take a- 

[00:47:48] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:47:48] Toliy: I don't know what that thing called when you have equity in the home. Like- 

[00:47:51] Eldar: Yeah. A line of credit ... a line 

[00:47:52] Toliy: of credit. Yeah. Heloc. Take it out.

[00:47:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:47:54] Toliy: And then redo everything- Mm ... and then like she, 

[00:47:56] Eldar: she was like- Update the whole thing. 

[00:47:56] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's "I wanna bounce my ideas off of you and see if they make sense."

[00:48:02] You know? I'm like, "Okay, sure." 

[00:48:04] Eldar: Okay, nice.

[00:48:04] All right. Good. 

[00:48:05] Toliy: So- 

[00:48:05] Eldar: You excited? 

[00:48:07] Toliy: No. I don't really care. 

[00:48:09] Eldar: All right.

[00:48:09] Good. Wow. 

[00:48:09] Toliy: Yeah.

[00:48:10] Eldar: You have PTSD so much that you can't even get, allow yourself to get a little bit excited about it? 

[00:48:14] Toliy: N- yeah, no, if she, if she brings it up again and she wants to talk about it- Great ... I will absolutely have it. Yeah. But if she never brings it up, okay. 

[00:48:19] Eldar: That is what it are, whatever. 

[00:48:20] Toliy: Yeah, my expectation's more to not, ever do it still.

[00:48:23] Eldar: Yeah. Would you suggest this is the best way of living? 

[00:48:27] Toliy: What? 

[00:48:28] Eldar: The not having those types of expectations, especially if, even if it's wow, this is like an exciting thing, this is an exciting journey potentially- 

[00:48:34] ... 

[00:48:34] Eldar: For everyone. 

[00:48:35] Toliy: Yeah. But I also think that a lot of people, when they, if they would observe that, they would say "Hey if you think like that, you're gonna be a like a miserable person."

[00:48:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:48:43] Toliy: Like that, that is what I think the observation is for a lot of people. 

[00:48:46] Eldar: But you already had your case study. 

[00:48:47] Toliy: Yeah, they just don't value like the like they're probably more like a, how I naturally maybe still am, but they're more like invasive- 

[00:48:56] Eldar: Invasive, yeah ... 

[00:48:57] Toliy: you know?

[00:48:57] In their approach In their approaches to like things- Yeah ... versus being like, "Hey I'm willing to go as far as you are," type thing. 

[00:49:02] Eldar: I'm willing- .. to meet you where you're at and meet with the energy that is equal, but not too much.

[00:49:08] Toliy: Yeah, just in general making sure that you're not more... you're not operating and doing more than the actual person is showing their- 

[00:49:17] Desire to do and making sure that they're holding up their end of the bargain. 'Cause I think it's very easy, especially if something is very easy, maybe it's like Mike, these calls and these forms are maybe a much easier process for, for him. I don't think that he can put himself in the scenario where he is wanting it more and doing more than the person who is not holding up their end of the bargain or not showing that kind of- Mm-hmm

[00:49:37] same- 

[00:49:38] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:49:38] Toliy: same energy. They- Yeah ... they, they should be on his ass. 

[00:49:41] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:49:41] Toliy: Not the other way around. 

[00:49:43] Eldar: Yeah. Plus what you've accomplished with this kind of an approach, where your mom is now maybe a lot more clear as to what role you play in the family in regards to these types of decisions.

[00:49:56] Where maybe before you were forceful with your approach, and you were maybe still looked upon as not competent, you've already proven your track record that certain things that you have advice on, and you're willing, able, and ready if they are. 

[00:50:09] Toliy: Yeah. And oftentimes- And they're probably 

[00:50:10] Eldar: f- that feels probably better, right?

[00:50:12] Toliy: Yeah. And oftentimes- 

[00:50:13] Eldar: That you're competent ... 

[00:50:14] Toliy: I will give a, a, a pretty, uh, a m- not warning, but I'll be like, "Hey, if you guys wanna do that, that's up to you, and that's your choice." 

[00:50:22] When I say that, they're like, "Oh, no, no, no, no. I don't wanna do it on my choice," you know? Like- Yeah, yeah ... it, it's like a PTSD almost.

[00:50:27] Yeah. I, I don't know if it's a PTSD or a response of, like- 

[00:50:30] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:50:30] Toliy: if if someone's so off of it- 

[00:50:32] ... 

[00:50:32] Toliy: you should have a natural thing of "Wait, whoa. I, I don't wanna do it that way," right? 

[00:50:35] Eldar: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:50:36] Toliy: Yeah yeah, I always give it "Hey, you could do that, or you could do this."

[00:50:39] And it's up to you.

[00:50:40] No problem either way.

[00:50:42] You don't wanna do it? Don't do it. 

[00:50:44] Eldar: Yeah. You know? It won't bother you. 

[00:50:45] Toliy: No. 

[00:50:46] Eldar: That's good. Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's, I think that's a much stronger position. 

[00:50:49] Toliy: No. 

[00:50:49] Eldar: I 

[00:50:49] Toliy: think that- My mom got into that accident. I told her about the lawyer thing.

[00:50:52] She said, "No, no, I'm too busy." Okay. I never asked her again. 

[00:50:56] Eldar: That's it. 

[00:50:57] Toliy: Not one time.

[00:50:57] Not one time. That's good. Even if you know that it could benefit somebody or they- Yeah ... could get something out of it. 

[00:51:01] Eldar: Yeah. I remember you even talked to me about it. "Should, should we do it

[00:51:04] I was like, "Yeah. Why not?"

[00:51:05] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:51:05] Eldar: I remember. 

[00:51:06] Toliy: Yeah. Definitely should do it. And then when the person they were like, "Absolutely not"-

[00:51:09] to never again. 

[00:51:12] Eldar: Yeah. Mike, what do you think? This is the best way to approach these types of things, huh? Yeah, for sure. No attachment. No attachment. Yeah How do you bake in or how do you build on the fact that you have the ability to...

[00:51:30] I mean, you are competent in those areas and that you are will and ready and able, and that those people can actually see that you are there for them whenever they're ready. How do I do what? Or how do you actually promote that? See, like Toliy's kind of taking this like, "All right, I'm not gonna be like forceful anymore."

[00:51:47] You know? "But I'm here if you're ready."

[00:51:49] And they actually know that he's competent in this specific area.

[00:51:52] So then when they are finally ready, when they went on their little journey- 

[00:51:55] ... 

[00:51:55] Eldar: They always come back home and seek for help.

[00:51:59] You know what I'm saying? I think that's the most powerful position, where you're esteemed, you're respected.

[00:52:04] You know? 

[00:52:05] Toliy: Which for me is the- I think- ... don't get it twisted, it's not like a, uh- 

[00:52:08] Eldar: No, it's not a ploy. 

[00:52:09] Toliy: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:52:10] Eldar: No, it's, it's a side effect. 

[00:52:11] Toliy: It's a side, but it's still like a rare thing. Like- Oh, okay ... it doesn't like- 

[00:52:14] Eldar: You're not an expert in this yet. 

[00:52:15] Toliy: No, I'm saying that like I don't get put in these positions very often, but also it's like in a lot of things I'm like lurking and waiting in the shadows- 

[00:52:23] Eldar: Yeah

[00:52:23] Toliy: up until- Patiently ... sun, sun comes out. 

[00:52:25] Eldar: Yeah, patiently. 

[00:52:26] Toliy: You know? 

[00:52:26] Eldar: Yeah, I 

[00:52:26] Toliy: agree. Because like they, they could happen tomorrow, they could happen, you know- Yeah ... then,

[00:52:30] Eldar: yeah. 

[00:52:30] Toliy: Yeah, and like my mom said, "Hey, she's down to sell the car." I'm like, "Okay, let's do it." You know, our next step is to- 

[00:52:35] Eldar: Mm-hmm

[00:52:35] Toliy: finalize everything, do it, and then like I'm gonna give her all the information that she needs, give her the warnings based on some things I say, "Hey, there might be some touch-up requirements. You might have to do this. You might have to- Mm-hmm ... pay that. You all right with that?" 

[00:52:46] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:52:46] Toliy: You know? She said, "Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes," and we get it done and it works, great.

[00:52:50] Yeah. If the, if she's "No," one, one thing I definitely do is I'm like when someone wants to like do their own thing I'm just like a very uh, I don't know what, what the right word is, but I feel like I make it known that like I'm giving you almost like a warning.

[00:53:02] I put an emphasis on that. 

[00:53:04] Eldar: About what? 

[00:53:05] Toliy: I'm like, "Hey, we could do this, we could do this." Like for ex- for example, let's just say like she came to me and she's like she wanted to sell the car, and I felt like it was a bad idea. 

[00:53:15] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:15] Toliy: And I could tell her like, "Hey, we could definitely sell it."

[00:53:17] I would put, I, I would frame- Mm-hmm ... it this exact way. I would basically say "Hey, we could definitely do this, but-"

[00:53:23] but, but be- because also like I use tonality when doing this.

[00:53:27] You know? I'll, I'll say "But it's not a great time to do it.

[00:53:30] But if you want to- Yeah, we can do it ... we definitely can."

[00:53:33] And I'll say it like that- Yeah ... where there's like an emphasis of like- 

[00:53:36] Eldar: you are measuring her desire. 

[00:53:37] Toliy: Yes, but with giving like putting extra- A warning ... emphasis on like how I'm speaking. Yeah. I'm intentionally speaking- Yeah ... in that kind of way, that like saying that "Hey, if you really want this-" 

[00:53:46] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:53:47] Toliy: I'm basically... I could be saying that this is a bad idea without saying that it's a bad idea. 

[00:53:50] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:53:50] Toliy: But if you still wanna do it, we'll do it. 

[00:53:52] Eldar: Yeah. All right. 

[00:53:53] Toliy: And oftentimes those people will be like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no." They got it. "I'm not saying it's bad. No, no, no, no, no." 

[00:53:58] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:53:58] Toliy: But I'm not saying it's bad.

[00:53:59] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:53:59] Toliy: But I'm acting like it's bad almost. Yeah. I'm like- 

[00:54:01] Eldar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of 

[00:54:02] Toliy: course ... in, in the way I'm speaking. Got it. Intentionally. 

[00:54:04] Eldar: You like scaring people. 

[00:54:05] Toliy: Yeah. In those situations, yeah. I'm like, "Hey this is gonna be... Like, if you still wanna proceed past the Do Not Enter sign- 

[00:54:10] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:54:10] Toliy: let's go."

[00:54:11] Eldar: Okay. Good. 

[00:54:13] Toliy: But, uh, the sign's gonna be red and it's gonna glow- Yeah ... and have fire on 

[00:54:16] Eldar: it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You 

[00:54:16] Toliy: know? 

[00:54:16] Eldar: Yeah. Got 

[00:54:17] Toliy: it. So like that. But this is not like a, uh, every week, every day- 

[00:54:20] Eldar: Yeah, of course ... like a thing ... on some scenarios. Okay. So Mike, what are your thoughts? Have you reached that same place?

[00:54:27] With Emma, where she knows that you're that guy. 

[00:54:31] Mike: Yeah, I think, 

[00:54:32] Eldar: uh- Or not yet? Uh, 

[00:54:32] Mike: the... So I'm, I'm gonna tell you I think , Emma finds me very competent in a lot of stuff- Mm-hmm ... she comes to me often-

[00:54:38] for things.

[00:54:39] And for advice, like business stuff, finance stuff- .. francisco stuff, a lot of stuff she asks me. 

[00:54:44] Eldar: Not, not the purse stuff. 

[00:54:45] Mike: Not the purse stuff, no. 

[00:54:46] Eldar: Anymore. 

[00:54:47] Mike: Well, she does sometimes. "Hey," uh- ... you know, she wants, she comes to me sometimes- Yeah ... stupid ideas. 

[00:54:51] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:54:51] Mike: Like she came to me with the dog. 

[00:54:53] Eldar: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:54:53] Mike: You know? Oh, girl. And I was like, "Well, what do I take here? What, what's my stance here?"

[00:54:56] You know, I asked her some questions and I think she understood. Mm-hmm. I says "Who's gonna take care of it?" I gave her the warning, said, you know.

[00:55:02] "You know what's gonna happen if you don't train the dog."

[00:55:04] Eldar: Mm-hmm. "

[00:55:04] Mike: You understand? Who's gonna take... I asked who's gonna take care of it." 

[00:55:07] Eldar: Yeah. "

[00:55:07] Mike: Who's gonna walk it?" Yeah. "Who's gonna clean the shit?" 

[00:55:10] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:55:10] Mike: This is the stuff that she doesn't really- 

[00:55:12] Eldar: About. 

[00:55:13] Mike: No. Yeah. She likes to walk with Gary and stuff.

[00:55:15] And she try to hide behind, you know.

[00:55:17] For Teddy.

[00:55:19] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:55:20] Mike: But I was like, "Okay, whatever. If she wants to do it-" "first of all, I'm not the one who's gonna green light it. That's not my decision to say, 'Yes, do it.'" 

[00:55:27] Eldar: Yeah. "

[00:55:27] Mike: I'll answer your questions, whatever you want, but ultimately Gary has to decide- ... and if you convince him, then that's your problem."

[00:55:33] You know, I'm okay, whatever, so, so she does come to me, but with Gary it's different.

[00:55:38] Because, and he does come to me a lot- 

[00:55:40] ... 

[00:55:40] Mike: But a lot of the times when we do have a conversation, it's a lot of static. Even though he finds me competent-

[00:55:46] because he's very arrogant-

[00:55:48] he always wants to fight me.

[00:55:49] Because he has this thing of he wants to be right a lot of times.

[00:55:53] And you know the way he speaks. 

[00:55:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:55:55] Mike: Uh, so a lot of times we, we do- 

[00:55:57] Eldar: Butt heads ... 

[00:55:58] Mike: butt heads, but I think it's good. 

[00:56:00] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:56:00] Mike: You know? 

[00:56:01] Eldar: It's getting to a good place. 

[00:56:01] Mike: Yeah, I think w- fighting is good, static is good.

[00:56:05] Yeah. But he does find me competent, he does come to me and ask me to you know- Mm-hmm ... do shit, of course, and I do. But the times when he does come to me, and then we do have a disagreement on, when he says some ignorant stuff- Yeah ... I challenge him and it definitely doesn't end up good for him.

[00:56:19] Yeah. And he'll give me the silent treatment, the usual- Oh, the whole 

[00:56:22] Eldar: thing ...

[00:56:22] Mike: routine. But it's already I'm used to it, and I know how to uh- 

[00:56:26] Eldar: Navigate 

[00:56:27] Mike: it ... it doesn't bother me. Yeah. 

[00:56:28] Eldar: Yeah, okay. Yeah. 

[00:56:29] Mike: Because it's like I don't need anything from him. Yeah. And he all constantly needs stuff from me.

[00:56:34] Yeah. So either he's gonna have to suck up his pride-

[00:56:36] and, you know, quit the, silent treatment-

[00:56:38] or then he's just gonna sit there and it's getting faster and faster, the silent fits.

[00:56:42] They don't last as long. 

[00:56:43] Eldar: See, that's interesting, because you finally have conditioned him all unconditioning him.

[00:56:48] And to understanding that, look, these things don't go anywhere. 

[00:56:50] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:56:51] Eldar: Enough is enough. 

[00:56:52] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:56:52] Eldar: Uh, get out of it quicker so we can- Yeah ... keep moving on, because you're not taking it personal. 

[00:56:55] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. It's good. No, I don't take it personal. That's good. And, uh, in the house, the last sh- few years, all we all the time we just I'm constantly trolling him- Mm-hmm

[00:57:04] my mom, Emma- Yeah ... and everybody's trolling each other. Yeah. So the environment definitely became much better. 

[00:57:09] Eldar: Much better. 

[00:57:09] Mike: Obviously sometimes people get offended- 

[00:57:11] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:57:11] Mike: you know, certain things. Take it personally. But mostly it's the jabs of the truth.

[00:57:14] It's, they take it well. And I think- 

[00:57:17] Eldar: Okay

[00:57:17] Mike: I've been pushing for that, because, like- 

[00:57:18] Eldar: Right. And you're having a lot more fun. 

[00:57:20] Mike: And I'm having a lot more fun. 

[00:57:21] Eldar: Yeah. That's great. 

[00:57:21] Mike: We laugh at Emma, we laugh at my dad- 

[00:57:23] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:57:23] Mike: with Emma. 

[00:57:24] Eldar: Yeah. We laugh at my dad at, at Emma we're laughing at my mom. Yeah. Everybody's- Having a good time ... having a good time.

[00:57:29] That's aw- that's awesome to hear. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome to hear. So. Yeah, 'cause if you're listening and if you're not familiar with Mike's story and situation, go back to some of these podcasts, in the early days, 50- Oh, yeah ... 60s probably, where there was a lot of static, and Mike definitely came a long way when it comes to communication.

[00:57:43] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:57:44] Eldar: With his family, and totally true, communication with his family, and now we're seeing obviously some of those fruits of, of that labor. 

[00:57:51] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:57:51] Eldar: All right, guys, what are your final thoughts on this helping subject? Mike, what do you think? Did we find that middle ground?

[00:57:59] Did we find that little hidden thread where we should, where we can push, where we can't push, where we sh- Yeah ... should, shouldn't? Yeah. I 

[00:58:07] Mike: think the big thing in helping is knowing what's the right approach for the right person in that specific situation. I think obviously in anything you have to always pay attention to what's being said, how it's being said

[00:58:20] And I think I'm learning m- to become better at that- Yeah ... to apply the right pressure. You know, even just right now, my dad called me.

[00:58:27] And when he's over there, I was more soft with him.

[00:58:30] Instead of yelling at him and say "Yo, what the fuck? You dumbass, you went over there-

[00:58:34] you rushed this trip, you fucking came over there, you didn't ask the right questions," which is probably what happened.

[00:58:39] You know? L- but I can't assume that. He's in a vulnerable, delicate state.

[00:58:43] And I think finding the right approach to the right person at the right moment-

[00:58:47] knowing what they need is important, you know?

[00:58:50] Because I also like, where he was, I've been there- 

[00:58:52] Eldar: I know ... 

[00:58:53] Mike: in a different country by myself. 

[00:58:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:58:55] Mike: Feeling alone. I wouldn't want somebody to, like- 

[00:58:57] Eldar: Yell at you ... 

[00:58:58] Mike: yell at me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even though he didn't, uh... that story, do, I don't know if you remember.

[00:59:02] I'll, I'll tell it later. I guess I can.

[00:59:05] What happened to me when I was, uh, in a foreign land. With 

[00:59:09] Eldar: a foreign 

[00:59:10] chica. 

[00:59:10] Mike: With a foreign chica, yeah. 

[00:59:12] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:59:12] Mike: All right. 

[00:59:13] Eldar: Toliy? 

[00:59:15] Toliy: Yeah, I think I'm gonna piggyback off of our topic last week. 

[00:59:18] Eldar: Hmm. I 

[00:59:18] Toliy: think we're discovering more and more that the truth and the right information is readily accessible everywhere, but the ability to interpret it properly- 

[00:59:30] Eldar: Hmm, that word

[00:59:32] Toliy: is nowhere to be found. So I feel like in all of these scenarios where you're trying to help someone or trying to do any of these things- Oftentimes, I think that you get tricked that having the truth on your side is all that you need- Yeah ... to be successful. Having the facts is all you need, and I felt that for-

[00:59:53] for a long time of "Hey, like I got the facts."

[00:59:55] There's no way that you're gonna feel that you're right here or that I'm like, like whatever.

[00:59:59] But it's also, it's not about the facts, it's about having the right communication skills- 

[01:00:05] ... 

[01:00:05] Toliy: And the right ability to understand what someone is actually saying without them actually saying it.

[01:00:11] Because the, the it's not to be expected for the person you're helping to say, the student, to know the right words and to say what they're actually, they're feeling or what they're thinking. I think it should be like not an expectation of that's gonna be like the, that's gonna happen.

[01:00:27] I think the, uh, the duty's on you, of the teacher, to be able to extract what you need from the scenario and to listen properly and to be able to make the right observations- 

[01:00:41] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... 

[01:00:41] Toliy: on, on the scenario so that you can help the person interpret properly, because that's, that to me is like the recurring thing that happens is that there's like a not understanding of language.

[01:00:52] There's not an understanding of things. There, there's not that same, again, the, the, uh, truth or the facts is not what's, what's missing here, it's the ability to understand it and to interpret it correctly. 

[01:01:04] Eldar: Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I'm gonna jump off of what you guys were saying. Yeah, it's very important to obviously assess the situation first and foremost when it comes to helping, especially if you're eager beaver when it comes to being a helper and helping so much.

[01:01:18] Definitely assessing the situation is important. Finding that middle way between being so eager to help someone to get them to the finish line and, knowing what they can accept. Because we clearly see that a lot of people can't even accept some of the help.

[01:01:32] And some of the obvious help that you think you're giving-

[01:01:35] right can be not so obvious at all to- Mm ... the individual receiving, they might not even ha- be able to have enough hands, to hold that help, right? Because there's so much, they're just underwater completely, find that middle way. Don't become a gatekeeper of help as well,

[01:01:52] don't become like, "Oh, I'm not helping you anymore because of this, and the third." That's also not a good approach, obviously, if you like helping, you should continue to use that use that ability to help others, but find that fine-tune middle way, middle ground between- getting to the finish line and not getting to the finish line sometimes with that person.

[01:02:11] But not getting aggy on the inside because you didn't get there. Mm-hmm. Because you've dished out 99% of your energy, and that person couldn't even complete that 1%. 

[01:02:22] Don't shell up, don't ball up and start becoming, like I said, a gatekeeper, of helping others.

[01:02:27] Toliy: Yeah.

[01:02:27] One more thing I feel like and I don't know exactly the exact steps to get there, but I also feel that when I look back at my experiences when trying to, help others do stuff I like to figure out also the best, the best way to most efficiently get to a place where the person that you're helping is comfortable with calling themselves a dumbass- 

[01:02:45] In that process.

[01:02:46] If they're comfortable with saying "Hey," "Yeah, Mike, like I, I w- you know I, like I'm a bullshitter. I didn't drop off that thing at the town." 

[01:02:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:02:53] Toliy: For example. 

[01:02:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:02:54] Toliy: The more comfortable that person is with that, that to me is the ideal scenario of if they're comfortable enough and able to admit almost those kinds of things- Mm-hmm

[01:03:02] and either I don't know, laugh about them or, or just be honest about them.

[01:03:05] Yeah, I was pretty dumb for doing that," or "I, I'm like a dumbass right now." Yeah. Them just admitting that they're just incompetent almost- ... that's a, that to me is an elite state.

[01:03:13] For sure. Because there's so much opportunity. I, 

[01:03:15] Mike: I think that's, like, where, that's where the trolling comes in. When you have receipts, you can then troll. Oh, yeah. 

[01:03:19] Toliy: Well, well, no, it's not it's it's not you trolling I'm saying. It's the other person being comfortable enough- to basic- many times these kind of scenarios sometimes a person that you're helping, they feel like they need to have a guard up.

[01:03:30] Like they need to- Defensive ... defend themselves. Yeah. And they need to do that. But I feel like the best scenario and the most ideal scenario when the person's "Yeah, Mike, I know that you did all this and I dropped the ball."

[01:03:38] You know? 'Cause you can al- ... it's so easy to work with that when the other person's like- 

[01:03:41] Eldar: That's the best case 

[01:03:42] Toliy: scenario ... yeah, when they can a- That's 

[01:03:43] Eldar: ideal ... 

[01:03:43] Toliy: yeah- That's ideal ... when they can admit wrong. 

[01:03:45] Mike: Of course. 

[01:03:46] Toliy: No, yeah. And I think getting to that place where they're comfortable with either being wrong- Yeah

[01:03:49] or admitting wrong- 

[01:03:50] Mike: Yeah ... 

[01:03:50] Toliy: that to me is really 

[01:03:51] Mike: good. Well, that's a good topic for next week. Yeah. How to get to a place where you have relationships like that with people, not just for help, but just general relationships where you can- ... have that kind of standing- ... arrangement-

[01:04:02] agreement or- 

[01:04:03] Eldar: Where you can come forward and be truthful and honest- Yeah

[01:04:05] about your mishaps and stuff. 

[01:04:07] Mike: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah uh, 

[01:04:09] Toliy: Yeah, it's more in the space of having an accountable person where they're like- accountable for their mistakes almost, or accountable for their lack of action or whatever-

[01:04:19] it's, you know, it's much e- easier to work with that.

[01:04:21] Eldar: Well, I agree with you. 

[01:04:22] Toliy: But, but I know it's not- Yeah, but there is 

[01:04:23] Eldar: a whole process to that, Toliy, you 

[01:04:25] Toliy: know? No, I know, but I'm saying that there is a process to get-

[01:04:26] do- Yes ... behind the scenes. Yeah., No, I know that it's a whole process, but I'm saying that the ideal scenario to also sometimes not even on- only about - teaching them something or progressing forward.

[01:04:35] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:04:36] Toliy: Part of it is making sure that you foster an environment where people are comfortable, get to a point where they can be comfortable- Absolutely ... - absolutely ... knowing that hey they could be wrong and not feel like they're gonna get- 

[01:04:44] Eldar: Attacked ... 

[01:04:45] Toliy: yeah. Yeah. Attacked almost or, like- Yeah

[01:04:46] hit, hit over the head.

[01:04:47] Where, like that, where I think most people-

[01:04:49] yeah. Most people in, in, in general I think are trained to be right away more defensive and not- Yeah ... comfortable with that scenario of admitting wrong. 

[01:04:58] Eldar: That episode is called, if you are interested in that episode where we dove deep into these topics, it's called Teach or Troll, and I think it's in the 120th.

[01:05:06] 120 or something like that. All right. 

[01:05:10] Toliy: So yeah. 

[01:05:11] Eldar: Thank you, guys. This was great. Thank you. All right.