217. Hidden Cost of Relationship Sacrifice: Resentment & Lost Identity

Is sacrificing parts of yourself truly the key to a healthy relationship—or does it quietly breed resentment and kill the connection?

In this raw Dennis Rox Podcast conversation with Eldar, Katherine, Mike, and Toliy, the crew tackles the dangerous myth of relationship sacrifice through a friend’s real dilemma: giving up female friendships, partying, and personal habits to please his girlfriend—only to feel increasingly resentful, inauthentic, and unhappy. They explore why “sacrifice” often signals a lack of true self-knowledge, poor communication, and masked insecurity, and how it leads to resentment instead of growth.

Key insights include:

• Sacrifice vs. genuine change: True improvement (like cutting unhealthy vices) feels empowering when done for yourself, not to appease a partner. Doing it “for them” almost guarantees future resentment.
• Toliy’s powerful take: “Putting someone in a position to do something that they don’t like is showing that you don’t know the other person. And if you’re willing to do it, then I think you’re almost guaranteed to build resentment.” (One of the episode’s most insightful moments.)
• The honeymoon facade, lack of intention, and the “middle way” of self-respect over rigid boundaries or no boundaries.
• Real talk on ultimatums, control, raising awareness gracefully (with Eldar & Katherine’s personal drinking story as example), and why values must align organically.
• Mike on finding balance without extremes, and the dangers of pinballing through life without self-awareness.

Listeners will walk away with practical wisdom on authentic relationships, self-awareness in love, healthy compromise vs. sacrifice, communication mastery, and building connections rooted in truth rather than transaction or facade.

What will you sacrifice no more after this? Listen now for mindset shifts that could save (or redefine) your relationships. Share with someone navigating love struggles, leave a review if it hit home, and subscribe for more raw talks on self-awareness, hypocrisy, and real growth.

Are you in a relationship pickle of your own? Don't suffer in silence. Call in live or apply to be a guest on our next episode! Reach out to Eldar and the crew directly, and let us help you unpack your situation.

But wait... what is the actual reality behind the mysterious decision Chris made with his clothing? Toliy has some savage dirt to drop, but there’s a catch—if Chris hasn't listened all the way to the end, he’ll never get his rebate. To find out what Chris’s clothing choice says about his relationship status, and why Katherine signed a metaphorical "1,000-page contract" completely blind... you'll have to listen to the very end of this episode!

Dennis Rox Podcast – raw, unfiltered conversations on relationships, personal growth, and breaking free from self-sabotage.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Dennis: On this week's episode 

[00:00:01] Katherine: It's so normal here where people are just like, "Oh, you know, like all marriages have rough patches," or, you know, all these little like, uh, blanket statements on like, "Oh, you know, it's supposed to be rockier." No 

[00:00:13] Toliy: Putting someone in a position to do something that they don't like is showing that you don't know the other person.

[00:00:18] And if you're willing to do it, then I think you're almost guaranteed to build resentment. 

[00:00:25] Mike: To people, man, they can't figure out either he has boundaries or no boundaries, like two extremes, because finding the middle way is actually very intentional and you have to actually work at it. When you find the middle way, I don't- I'm not sure if you need to set your boundaries.

[00:00:48] Intro: For Eldar and for Mike And listen to the words From our dear brother Toly From the Dennis Rocks podcast A comfort to the soul Their profound insights make our weary spirits whole 

[00:01:16] Eldar: All right, guys. Welcome back to the Dennis Rocks podcast. Why are you smiling off that intro, uh, off that, uh, intro, Toliy?

[00:01:23] Good? It's a great one, right? Brother Toliy. Listen it was random. You know what I mean? The person that made this, be it a real person or AI, it chose to do the brother thing on its own. So it has nothing to do with me, okay? I don't know why it did that. Maybe it's destiny. Maybe it's prophecy, whatever.

[00:01:46] But today, on tonight's pod- podcast, I'd like to talk about, uh, something that was brought up to me earlier. Our friend Chris reached out to us, to me, and he was talking about, you know, he had some relationship issues. But one big topic that kept coming around was the word sacrifice. Where a lot of times in relationships we get into We get into relationships and then those relationships sometimes maybe require or prompt us to, quote unquote, "sacrifice certain things."

[00:02:16] It could be sacrifice time, it could be sacrifice friendships. In his case, to, to bring an actual example here he has a lot of friends that are girls, right? He's one of those guys that believes that you can have a, a healthy relationship, but still have you know, female friends. I actually don't believe that.

[00:02:35] That's a different topic. We could definitely talk about that. Uh, but that, that's what he believes. However, now that he fell in love with this girl about six, seven months now, or eight months that's becoming a problem, right? Those female friends, right? She's... His current girlfriend is not happy with that, and he seems to be like, hey, like, he's in this pickle where he feels like, "Hey, I don't wanna give away my friendships.

[00:02:58] I don't wanna change my lifestyle." He also likes to hang out, party and stuff, you know? But those are some of the things that she's asking him to do, right? To calm down on the partying, to maybe change some of his friendships, stop being friends with female, female girlfriends because it's not working out for them.

[00:03:13] And they started to fi- started to fight. So a lot of times he feels like, "Oh, I'm sacrificing this, I'm sacrificing that." He, he mentioned some other examples that he's done. But then he's, you know, still, still has fights with her, still has issues, and he's bringing out these, you know, these receipts every time he has fights with her, saying that, "I've sacrificed this for you.

[00:03:33] I sacrificed this for you," you know, just for the sake of the relationship. But still, he's not happy at the end of the day, right? So I think that's a very good topic, where a lot of times in any kind of relationships, right, especially romantic ones, I think guys, girls, right, they sacrifice many different things and in turn think that this is gonna be the, the answer to a healthy, a good relationship.

[00:03:54] But over time it proves otherwise that he started to build, started to feel resentment. He started to feel anger, right? Frustration. He feels pressured, so he feels pressure. And he just doesn't feel like he's himself, he's telling me, right? He's like, "Aldo, like I, I'm j- I don't know if it's like... What am I doing wrong?"

[00:04:15] You know, he reached out to me because obviously, you know, he's, he's like, "Oh, I know you have a counseling degree. You know, you've been in a relationship for a while. Help me out," so obviously I listened to him and I, you know, I thought that the word sacrifice was a good topic and, you know, obviously I'll send him the link to this episode so he can maybe expand on it a little bit more and tune in.

[00:04:34] But what do you guys think? Uh, sp- specifically in relationships, how do you view sacrificing, changing for the other person And, uh, what should be said about that? 

[00:04:44] Mike: Uh, I think we had, like, uh, something about sacrifice before. I think I was-- I brought it up, or, like, we had a episode about it, which I was like, "Y'all, I don't like that word."

[00:04:54] Because I feel like if, I'm not sure if it was around relationships. Maybe. I don't remember the context of it, but I just feel like that whole word is like it has a bad connotation around it. Like- 

[00:05:05] ... 

[00:05:05] Mike: To me, the, like the, to s- to say it like the way that I understood at least sacrifice, you know, the way I understood it always, it's not like...

[00:05:14] You feel like you're giving something up, but like, like almost like against your will usually, which is like I don't know. It's, like, not something that you'd like to do m- or like to say or use as a part of your relationship or any kind of thing what you're doing. But 

[00:05:32] Eldar: a lot of times when you start the relationship, right?

[00:05:34] Mm-hmm. You're buzzing. 

[00:05:35] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:05:35] Eldar: You're excited about the relationship. You want things to go well, right? Uh, I know Joe is, uh, li- listening in here. He knows exactly how this feels. Joe's 

[00:05:43] Mike: big on sacrifice. 

[00:05:43] Eldar: He was... No, he w- he was big on sacrificing- Yeah ... you know, his health, his money- Yeah ... everything, right?

[00:05:49] Mm-hmm. He's one of those guys where he's willing to, move mountains- ... change the whole world for a girl- 

[00:05:53] Mike: Yeah ... 

[00:05:54] Eldar: right? Because of that honeymoon stage or the falling in love stage- 

[00:05:58] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:05:58] Eldar: right? But again, he was sacrificing himself. 

[00:06:02] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:06:02] Eldar: Running himself to the ground, and ultimately, those types of relationship never worked out for him.

[00:06:06] Mike: No. 

[00:06:07] Eldar: You know, he wasn't happy. Over time, obviously, those sacrifices, quote-unquote, will get to you. 

[00:06:14] So what do you think some of the actual sacrifices that are happening, I know you don't like the word, but what are you actually sacrificing then? 

[00:06:19] Mike: I think- 

[00:06:19] Eldar: Aside 

[00:06:20] Mike: from just yourself ... I think the only, I think the reason you would feel a sacrifice that you're, like, sacrificing something is when you're actually not receiving that which you should be or would l- I,

[00:06:30] Eldar: Like, there's no exchange, no equal exchange.

[00:06:32] Mike: No, it's like you're not actually getting out of the relationship what you want because I think getting what you want out of a relationship is not a simple thing. 

[00:06:41] So then... And, and I guess that's, like, a very deep, like, uh, thing to me. It sounds like a... Like, you gotta really go deep to, like, say, what does that mean to, like...

[00:06:50] Are you not getting that what you want out of a relationship? But why do you do the sacrifice in the first place? Um, because you... It's, uh, you wanna have the cake and eat it too, right? Mm-hmm. Like, part of that is, like, you wanna be able to do all things that you, like, set out to do in your life, the things you used to do, the things you wanna do now with this person.

[00:07:10] Obviously, the physical attraction is a big thing, the honeymoon phase, the excitement. All those things, you know, they're definitely appealing. But also you have other things that you're interested in. So it's like a internal conflict- 

[00:07:25] ... 

[00:07:25] Mike: Of like, yeah, like what do I sacrifice? Do I go skating with the boys, or do I go, I have to, I have a mandatory, like, thing with my girl- Mm

[00:07:32] that I really don't wanna, no, wanna go to, right? So- Yeah, I think it's, um It's a difficult, like, uh, part of a relationship and I don't... I m- I would probably say, like, unhealthy 

[00:07:51] Eldar: It's unhealthy- Yeah ... to sacri- to sacrifice. 

[00:07:52] Mike: Yes. I 

[00:07:53] Eldar: think- But what if you sa- what if you're sacrificing some parts about yourself that you not necessarily are happy about?

[00:08:00] Like, for example, right, the girl- Mm-hmm ... he's saying, like, look, oh, there's like, um, this girl doesn't really party like that- Mm-hmm ... like I, I do, right? He's like, and to some degree he's like, "Yeah, I, I do realize sometimes I, I go overboard." 

[00:08:12] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:12] Eldar: You know, with drinking, smoking weed- Yeah ... or whatever it is.

[00:08:15] Mm-hmm. You know, whatever the vices that he's going into. So he's like, to some degree she's raising awareness and she's- Mm-hmm ... making me better. 

[00:08:22] Mike: But he wouldn't describe that as a sacrifice. He would... Like, I don't think anybody would say, like, you don't sacrifice things that you're maybe happy to, like, let go of.

[00:08:31] Usually sacrifice is something you're not happy to let go of. 

[00:08:33] Eldar: For sure. 

[00:08:34] Mike: Sounds like this something, this whatever, I don't know the word for it, like, she's helping him to better himself. 

[00:08:40] Not engaging in those activities, that's not a sacrifice, that's something that he's actually probably enjoying.

[00:08:45] Eldar: Well, no, I think that, I think that he's in the battle between, you know, those belief systems. Mm-hmm. I think that when it was first probably brought up, it was like a, "Oh, what the fuck, I don't wanna do this." Mm-hmm. You know, "This is, this is part of my life, this is who I am," you know? 

[00:09:00] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:09:00] Eldar: But if he starts to kinda like, okay, there's more fights because of it, then he's gonna like, "Okay, maybe I should put this down for the sake of the relationship."

[00:09:07] Mm-hmm. For, for her sake. 

[00:09:08] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:09:09] Eldar: Right? Not necessarily f- what you're talking about, for my sake- Mm-hmm ... for the betterment of myself. 

[00:09:13] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:09:14] Eldar: Right? It's for the betterment of the other person. 

[00:09:16] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:16] Eldar: Because they're the ones who are getting upset. 

[00:09:18] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:09:18] Eldar: You feel me? 

[00:09:19] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:09:19] Eldar: So that's how, that's why I think that it feels like a sacrifice in the beginning at least.

[00:09:24] What do you think, Tolya? 

[00:09:25] Toliy: Well, I feel like, in, in, in any kind of re- relationship, like romantic or friend or whatever, I think in, um, in essence, if you're using... If t- if people are sacrificing in the relationship, I think that what they're doing really is they're putting a pause button on getting to know each other.

[00:09:42] Eldar: Mm. 

[00:09:42] Toliy: And they're sacrificing because they actually don't know each other and they're not willing to at the moment. 

[00:09:49] Eldar: What do you mean by that? 

[00:09:51] Toliy: Um- 

[00:09:52] Eldar: You mean they're simping for each other? 

[00:09:53] Toliy: They're, they're- Like, they're willing to say, put their best 

[00:09:56] foot 

[00:09:57] Toliy: forward- Well, if you're willing to sacrifice- Yeah

[00:09:59] that means that, like, you're willing to like, to do something that you don't want to do in order to get something out of it. 

[00:10:07] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:10:07] Toliy: Right? 

[00:10:08] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:10:08] Toliy: And if someone f- and if someone feels the need to do, and do to do that, and that's the position that they're being put in, either self-imposed or by the other person, that means either, uh, one, one person is lying to the other person saying that they actually do like this, right?

[00:10:24] And then not telling the other person, and then kind of holding that in, and then, and then potentially over will, will hold that over their head uh, later. Mm-hmm. Or or, like, the other option, I guess, is like, they're maybe, like, they're not willing... yeah, like, they're not willing to, like, I guess, tell the other person, or, like, the, it...

[00:10:43] Two people don't know each other to some degree if this, there's sacrificing, sacrifice being held, right? 

[00:10:50] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:50] Toliy: Like, it, like, if you and Kat know it, know each other, right? For example if you actually know each other, you kind of know what you g- who you guys are, what you like, and what you don't like.

[00:11:02] And I think, um, putting someone in a position to do something that they don't like is showing that you don't know the other person. Um, and if you're willing to do it, then I think you're almost guaranteed to build resentment. 

[00:11:18] Eldar: Guaranteed. 

[00:11:18] Toliy: Guaranteed, yeah. Because, like, you're doing something you don't want to do, and the only time some- that is being done is when you're getting some kind of outcome for it, right?

[00:11:28] Like, the word sacrifice in general is used in life in the sense of, like, yeah, doing something you don't wanna do to get some kind of outcome. Um- 

[00:11:38] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:11:38] Toliy: I wanna be a great basketball player, but I don't really wanna wake up at 6:00 AM and go to the gym, but I'm going to, so I'm gonna sacrifice- In order to get...

[00:11:46] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:11:46] Toliy: because I wanna be great. So what happens if you don't become great? What happens if you still suck? Yeah. You're gonna have some kind of anger or some kind of resentment, right? Yeah. If you're working hard at a job and you're sacrificing your time, for example, with your family and friends, and you don't get that big promotion that you wanted to, you will grow angry and resentful, right?

[00:12:07] It's just natural. Natural. Right? Mm-hmm. So, but in a relationship sense, I think that, yeah, it's like y- it's usually o- one or more parties, right, not willing to actually have that conversation with the person saying, like, "Hey," like, "this is who I am." So you, like, they would have to be accepting of the other person if they truly knew who they were, and they wouldn't feel the need to put them in a position where they're either needing to sacrifice or things are over.

[00:12:34] Or the other person's, has to be strong enough to know that, like, hey, if I implicate myself in this kind of way, I am going to naturally grow resentment towards you, so I'm not going to do it. This is just who I am. 

[00:12:45] And if two people knew who both people are, then this wouldn't happen. But to me it's like, yeah, like, the examples you're bringing up is two people don't know, don't really know each other.

[00:12:57] Based on what I'm hearing 

[00:12:58] Mike: And I also think, m- you know, in order to know each other, before you can maybe have the ability to know each other in a real, in like a real in-depth knowing, you would have to know yourself, and then you have to present yourself- 

[00:13:10] Toliy: As the 

[00:13:11] Mike: true self ... as who you actually are, not who you pretend to be- 

[00:13:15] Toliy: Yeah

[00:13:16] Mike: in order to gain some kind of- 

[00:13:17] Toliy: And to do that, you have to be okay with yourself. 

[00:13:20] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:13:20] Toliy: But most people are not okay with themselves because they're... and because they're not okay with themselves, they're usually presenting some parts of themselves who they are not in order to get something, right?

[00:13:32] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:33] Toliy: They want the girl, they want the relationship, right? 

[00:13:36] Eldar: That's 

[00:13:36] Toliy: right. Whatever it is. So they're going to, whether it's conscious, so it's probably un- unconscious, like, like protection thing. Uh, does 

[00:13:42] Eldar: this, does this pheno- Okay. That's, I wanna segue to this. Does this phenomena happen in the first place because we're insecure about ourselves?

[00:13:49] Yeah. Okay, so that was a quick answer. 

[00:13:52] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:13:52] Eldar: Mike, you agree with that? Yeah, 

[00:13:54] Mike: yeah, absolutely. 

[00:13:54] Eldar: That's, that's what it is. 

[00:13:55] Mike: Well, in not knowing who you are and insecurity is probably same thing. 

[00:13:59] Eldar: Same thing. 

[00:14:00] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:14:01] Eldar: Okay. So then you start putting together this little image or this mask or this persona of identity, right?

[00:14:08] Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:10] Mike: The, like the way I picture it is- You signed up for like, in a way, a rollercoaster, right? And a rollercoaster is fun, right? Like in a relationship. In the beginning it's like a good rollercoaster. It's pleasant. You're like crazy, the, all the great best feelings, right? 

[00:14:27] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:27] Mike: But eventually the rollercoaster gets a little shitty, 

[00:14:29] Eldar: yeah. 

[00:14:31] Mike: But you didn't know what you're signing up for this shitty rollercoaster. You... The transition phase between the honeymoon- 

[00:14:35] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:14:36] Mike: to the real life, people just kinda go into it. It's real. It's, but there's a real thing, but people never say, "Hey, wait, we're going away from the having fun stuff now. We're really like starting to maybe imprint on each other or show our preferences."

[00:14:49] When you're in the beginning you don't give a fuck, bro. You just wanna have sex, have fun, hang out, do whatever. 

[00:14:53] Nothing like anything goes, right? Typically. 

[00:14:56] Eldar: And then you start to get to know each 

[00:14:57] Mike: other. And then you start to show yourself- 

[00:15:00] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:15:00] Mike: who you really are. Your true self. Once the facade of like, "Oh, I'm just wanna have fun-" Yeah

[00:15:04] everything's simple, then the insecurities come out. Oh, where you going? Who you going with? Insecure things, trust things- The habits come out ... respect things. The real person who you are- Real habits ... starts to show. And then now, but there was no like, "Hey n- we're going different now. There's like a change of direction."

[00:15:20] Mm-hmm. Now the honeymoon's over and now we're really like, these are the real people coming 

[00:15:24] Eldar: out. There's no conversation about it even. 

[00:15:25] Mike: There's no conversation. There's no heads up. There's no like even like acknowledgement like, oh- Yeah ... this is happening. So I think it, these things, they happen on their own autonomously without the recognition of the people involved.

[00:15:38] Why do you think they 

[00:15:38] Eldar: happen? It's because of the fact that the whole thing was built on charades? 

[00:15:43] Mike: No. Because the people are not doing things intentionally and that's it probably. And that lack of intention and, and, uh- 

[00:15:50] Eldar: They don't know what's going on at, at all. 

[00:15:52] Mike: Yeah. Yeah, it's a lack of intention.

[00:15:54] Like anybody, like you can get into a relationship, have fun, have sex, go out, do your thing. Nothing, like that's good. But if that's your intention, that's your intention. And then you also understand like, hey, eventually like real life's gonna come out. Like eventually you have to get to like the, m- the life of things, you know?

[00:16:13] Eldar: The real decisions. 

[00:16:14] Mike: Yeah. The real decisions- The reality ... the real preferences. 'Cause in the beginning you're like, "Oh yeah, you wanna go here? I don't care." Like, you know. 

[00:16:19] Eldar: Sacrifice. 

[00:16:20] Mike: When you're with Kat- Yeah ... when you first started dating, you guys, you went to the mall with her, right? 

[00:16:23] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:16:24] Mike: Because you wanted to be with her.

[00:16:25] Eldar: Yeah. Well, yeah. 

[00:16:26] Mike: Because you wanna spend time with her- Yeah ... 'cause that. Then the real stuff like, "Actually, I hate the mall. I don't wanna go anymore." 

[00:16:32] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:16:32] Mike: That kinda wore off,

[00:16:33] Eldar: yeah. 

[00:16:34] Mike: But there's no like, "Hey, I actually never had the conversation with Kat. I don't wanna go to..." You might have done that, but I'm saying most people don't.

[00:16:42] They don't say, "Hey, you know, like it was fun in the beginning, but I actually don't really like going to do this or that." Like... 

[00:16:49] Eldar: How do you find the balance between presenting your true self- 

[00:16:52] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:16:52] Eldar: right? But still being able to have fun because it almost seems like if you start presenting yourself as your true self, right?

[00:16:59] Mm-hmm. You can almost scare the other person away as to say like, "Oh, these are your preferences? 

[00:17:03] Mike: This is who you are? I don't really fuck with that." Well, I think, I think the ability to present yourself in a fun way- 

[00:17:10] ... 

[00:17:10] Mike: Is the way to do it. But be- not, not be like, uh... Show your true self, but don't be like a don't take it too seriously, you know?

[00:17:21] Yeah. Don't be like a stick up your ass kinda guy or girl, you know? Where you're like extremely strict, but learn how to have fun with it because, like, life is, has its own, like, uh, navigation and, um You really don't know what to expect. Hmm. So, so, so I think it's important to, to try to have fun in whatever situations come about and not take it too seriously.

[00:17:48] But know what things that need to be taken seriously too. But so it's like, it's a, 

[00:17:54] Eldar: it's a tricky balance. 

[00:17:54] Mike: It's a balance. It's a tricky balance. I think it's a tricky balance, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:17:57] Toliy: Toliy, what do you suggest? I, I think that in general, I think social media and just like influencers, I think that like they create this expectation of people as to how people like- 

[00:18:07] Eldar: Ought to be

[00:18:07] Toliy: ought to be. You know, and like the funny thing is like that, uh, clavicular guy, he, he s- he says his whole thesis is behind like the whole like looksmaxing thing. 

[00:18:16] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:16] Toliy: Is all behind because of what people think. Like they, they're the ones that they said... Like he always says that like they're the ones that have created this kind of fake reality that it's all about like looks, it's all about like those kinds of like status, clothing, like- Mm-hmm

[00:18:30] for materialistic things. And then pe- people grow into these kind of expectations that like they're just look... They're, they... Like they're looking for these perfect people almost, right? That like don't kind of exist, and people buy into that thinking that they need to be perfect so that they then put this facade on to act perfect.

[00:18:49] Mike: Mm. 

[00:18:49] Toliy: And they're the t- that's why they're insecure in presenting this person who they're not to begin with. Because both people think that this is what needs to be done. By then everyone knows that like you can only do that for so long. You're not gonna fake it for that long because it's just, it's too much effort and it's just not real, right?

[00:19:11] So yeah, it's almost like- So 

[00:19:12] Eldar: it just gets your foot through the door. 

[00:19:15] Toliy: Yeah. That, I mean- But it doesn't- ... the same thing for like jobs, right? Like when, or like when people present themselves like, "Yeah, I'm a AI tech founder." All right, well, like you might have an idea, but you got nothing. But you're also an A- AI tech founder.

[00:19:28] AI tech founder could be a multi-billionaire, right? Or it could be someone worth nothing and in debt. 

[00:19:34] Eldar: Yeah. This is true. 

[00:19:36] Toliy: An I- AI tech founder can be like a master coder of everything and like know the business and really have a lot of knowledge, right? But it can also be like a loser who knows nothing.

[00:19:46] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:19:47] Toliy: But at the same time, you know, AI tech business owner, right? CEO. 

[00:19:52] Eldar: So ultimately there's no substance. 

[00:19:54] Toliy: So yeah, but that's because like all these vague words, the, in these kind of like scenarios are created and these false realities for, for people. But they I, I think it'd be a lot easier if two people said in the beginning like, "Hey, like- Enough.

[00:20:09] Let's cut the BS, you know? Yeah. And they, and then they don't have to d- do this, but I think people feel the need to put on this, this fake facade because they, they like yeah, they, they feel like th- this is what's- They're not enough ... required to get a... Yes. 

[00:20:22] Mike: The value- 

[00:20:23] Toliy: This is what's required to get 

[00:20:24] Mike: acceptance

[00:20:24] more the, the, the, the value of others' opinion is much more than what your own self-worth. 

[00:20:29] Toliy: Yeah. The funny thing- So- ... is that in, in all of these scenarios, whether it's you getting a job or in a relationship, right? It's like if you're gonna lie from the beginning It's going to be short-lived regardless, right?

[00:20:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:20:44] Toliy: So if you're gonna lie- You know 

[00:20:46] Eldar: that. 

[00:20:46] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:20:47] Eldar: But that person that's lying- 

[00:20:47] Toliy: No, but I'm saying like- ... doesn't 

[00:20:48] Eldar: know 

[00:20:48] Toliy: that ... that's the r- reality, right? 

[00:20:50] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:20:50] Toliy: So it's almost like, hey, if your goals are short-term, no problem, right? 

[00:20:55] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:20:56] Toliy: Do that. You can get your short-term outcomes that you're looking for, you can get into that relationship with that girl or whoever. You can get that job real quick, right? You can get hired and fired, right? 

[00:21:07] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:21:07] Toliy: But if you're, but if you don't have that, if your goals are more, you know, of substance or maybe long-term then yeah, I think just doing that is just gonna shoot yourself in the foot, 100%.

[00:21:18] So- 

[00:21:18] Eldar: What happen, what happens in the case where if you were your true self in the beginning, especially let's just say, take Chris' example here, right? He's- Mm-hmm ... let's just say he was the partier, the happy-go-lucky guy, you know? 

[00:21:30] Um, and this is, this is who she fell in love with, right? And this is what was presented.

[00:21:36] Um, and that's what he, he obviously told me. But now that maybe the relationship is getting more serious- Mm-hmm ... right, there's certain different expectations because that type of lifestyle maybe is not sustainable, right? Hanging out, partying- 

[00:21:50] Toliy: But 

[00:21:50] Eldar: why, 

[00:21:50] Toliy: why are the expectations shifting? 

[00:21:53] Eldar: That's a good question.

[00:21:53] Maybe because the person wants to get, take things a little bit more seriously, maybe prepare for fa- more f- the future, a family. 

[00:22:00] Toliy: Okay. And do both parties involved want that? 

[00:22:04] Eldar: S- uh, s- she says yes. 

[00:22:07] Toliy: Okay, so then there's no, uh- 

[00:22:08] Eldar: There should be no problem. 

[00:22:09] Toliy: No problem. 

[00:22:09] Eldar: But then is it not sus- uh, he would probably ask, is it sustainable to be able to still keep that type of lifestyle in order to still be happy?

[00:22:17] This is part of who he is. He doesn't wanna let go of that identity. 

[00:22:20] Toliy: Well, then it sounds like you don't want then the other side of it, right? Because it's, it's difficult, I think, to hold on to or to try to be part of both identities to those same extremes. Now, you could just probably dial things down and still probably do some things, but yeah, like, you have to make a choice as to what you want and what, what actually makes you happy.

[00:22:43] Eldar: Because letting go of some of those identities, for example, let's just say the party goer Chris, right, um, can affect them in a very specific way, right? Because even though like, oh yeah, sure, a lot of times people party too much or whatever and, and they have to grow out of it, quote unquote. But if it's part of who you are, let's just say you do this, I don't know, twice or three times a week, you hang out. This is your identity. This is how you charge up. You enjoy yourself. 

[00:23:10] And it's part of your happiness, right? So if you remove that- 

[00:23:14] Mike: Yeah ... 

[00:23:15] Eldar: right, and if you don't install something else that fills your life- Mm-hmm ... 

[00:23:19] in that same way of socializing with your peers, hanging out, drinking and relaxing a little bit from the stressors of life- Then it can have an adverse effect on the other side.

[00:23:29] Mike: Well- But, but w- the question, I guess, what came to my mind is you would have to know what purpose that that be- that is, uh, serving. 

[00:23:39] Eldar: Well, I j- I just told you. The purpose is, let's just say, having fun. 

[00:23:42] Mike: Well, the thing is- Right? Like, like when you- ... if, if it is having fun, right? Yeah. Uh, it's different than if it is some kind of, like, other thing, like coping 

[00:23:43] Eldar: mechanism.

[00:23:43] I'm not s- I'm not saying this is the case or-

[00:23:52] Well, even if it is. Even if it is, right? Or let's just say that this is an outlet, that, like, you have a stressful job, you have- Mm-hmm ... stressful life or whatever, and then your coping mechanism to it is to drink, hang out- 

[00:24:02] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:24:02] Eldar: chill with your friends, maybe wake up a little bit later, yeah. And that's part of it, that's how you deal with life, and, I mean, I'm sure that- Yeah ... plenty of people deal with what- 

[00:24:11] Mike: Well, I think there's- ... people deal with- ... people d- could definitely deal with it that way. But if you'd like to ha- like, uh, I guess I'm not sure h- if it's possible to have that and then, like... 

[00:24:20] Eldar: Well, why not? Why can't he decompress in that way?

[00:24:25] Mike: No, um, I mean, he ca- you can, uh, decompress in that way, but, um- 

[00:24:30] Eldar: Like, because a lot of times 

[00:24:31] Mike: when you- When did it turn to something more than decompression, like, uh, alcoholism or, like, a, a drug addiction? Well, that I don't 

[00:24:36] Eldar: know. You know what I mean? I'm not, I'm, yeah, I'm not, I'm not, w- I don't think we're walking 

[00:24:38] Mike: down that path.

[00:24:38] No, no, I'm not saying with him. I'm just saying in, I'm just talking about in this specific thing generally. I think, like, n- I don't think there's anything good or bad inherently. Yeah. I always feel like there's just a person's association with it, right? Correct. So, like, Julius, he clearly coped too much, he, I think. And- 

[00:24:56] Eldar: Well, you know, actually, I think that he probably didn't get enough blessings in order to cope- Yeah ... with it properly. 

[00:25:01] Mike: Yeah, he never coped with it properly, but- 

[00:25:02] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:25:03] Mike: but he engaged in activity a lot. 

[00:25:05] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:25:06] Mike: So I think, yeah, that's a- like, also part of it, I think- Um, maybe she feels like it's not a good thing for him.

[00:25:15] Mm-hmm. Uh, observing where it's coming from. Yeah. She might be thinking it's like he has some kind of problem and that's why he's doing this, where he might be just decompressing, relaxing, and it's just purely for joy, uh, fun, and, and like that, versus... Yeah. Again, it's not knowing each other. 

[00:25:31] Toliy: Yeah, I feel like if- But-

[00:25:32] if you have two people in the mix, it has to... things have to line up in a particular way where it works well. But also I think that, um, it'd probably help with, like, proper ex- explanation. 

[00:25:43] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:44] Toliy: But if the person, like, says that like, "Hey," like, "Hey," like, "I like doing this. It makes me feel good. It makes me who I am, and it allows me to put pro-" It's part of who I am.

[00:25:53] Yeah. But it also allows me to put proper attention to o- to other things because of it. And if that person is understanding the other person, then I guess they could show some kind of understanding, right? And, like, be accepting of that. Um, but- But you 

[00:26:09] Eldar: have to be able to communicate that properly ... 

[00:26:10] Toliy: but y- yeah, you have to be able to communicate that properly, but the important thing is that I think the requirement to communicating properly is to not have attachment to particular outcomes when communicating, right?

[00:26:24] An example of that is if you're communicating and someone drops an ultimatum to you. 

[00:26:28] Eldar: Mm. 

[00:26:28] Toliy: Right? If you tell them, they're like, "Hey, this helps me with X, Y, and Z," and they reply w- saying, "Well, hey, that's not gonna work." 

[00:26:37] Eldar: Yeah. "

[00:26:39] Toliy: If you care about this, you need to drop that." 

[00:26:42] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:26:42] Toliy: Ultimatum. How is that gonna make the other person feel?

[00:26:44] Yeah. The question is, is that if they need to think about that answer in the moment, it's over for them. They have to already be coming into it, I think, with what their stance is on that kind of- Prepared ... response. Because if you, if you're gonna think about it in the moment, you're gonna go you're only gonna go the, like the simping almost, like, direction for, for sure, I think.

[00:27:06] '

[00:27:06] Toliy: Cause I think it's very hard to not go in that direction in that kind of scenario. So part of it, yeah, is already not being attached to a particular outcome when, uh, when, um, going into that conversation. 

[00:27:23] Eldar: Okay. 

[00:27:24] Katherine: I was thinking about, I overheard, like, the ultimatum, and I just thought, like, could a possible scenario where someone is maybe...

[00:27:35] I don't... Not sacrificing, but compromising something that's for their good, is that what you guys would label as simping? 

[00:27:45] Toliy: I- i- is what? Sorry, is compromising something? 

[00:27:48] Katherine: Like, um, in this case it's, um, it's maybe someone telling the person like, "Hey, uh, j- is it that you're drinking too much?"

[00:27:55] Or, "I don't like that you drink." Yeah, 

[00:27:56] Toliy: okay. 

[00:27:57] Katherine: So I don't know all the context. You know, like maybe if it's, you know, this person doesn't behave well when they drink or they don't handle it well, I'm not sure what the case is. But if this person were to compromise for, you know, a person that matters- Mm-hmm ... you know, if the person is worth it, would you guys call that...

[00:28:16] would you consider that simping if it's, um, like a healthy compromise to stay with that person, and maybe it's a better choice for yourself, for your health- See, I think that- ... for your 

[00:28:25] Toliy: wellbeing? Yeah. See, I think that like, um, for these changes to go gracefully and without consequences, like later down the line, I think they, the person that you're with can raise awareness, but they ultimately have to be for yourself and not for someone else.

[00:28:41] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:42] Toliy: Um, and if they're not for yourself, they're probably either not going to last or they're going to come at some point with consequences of resentment. Yeah. So if you- Yeah ... if you change something about yourself, I think because to like appease Eldar, for example, event- like you're gonna be angry eventually.

[00:29:00] Oh, you'll be 

[00:29:00] Katherine: resentful. 

[00:29:01] Toliy: Yeah. You're, you're like... But it's different if you, if Eldar raises a point, for example, and you agree- Mm-hmm ... and you do it for yourself regardless- 

[00:29:09] Katherine: No, ... 

[00:29:09] Toliy: right? 

[00:29:10] Katherine: Kind of. 

[00:29:10] Toliy: Um- 

[00:29:11] Katherine: But, yeah the thing is it would be, let's say a compromise, right? But ultimately if, if this is good, if this is good for you, like I feel like once you let the ego or the pride down- 

[00:29:24] Toliy: No, but that 

[00:29:25] Katherine: word, good-

[00:29:25] and you start thinking about that, and it's like, "Actually, you know what? Maybe, maybe I would benefit from this. Maybe this would be positive for me. Like, maybe this could be something good for me." Well- You know? Not all compromises I feel like have to feel like, like they're being done for the other person.

[00:29:38] I guess that kinda comes with a relationship, certain things that you w- probably would prefer, but sometimes you, you meet in the middle, like- 

[00:29:45] Toliy: Well, I think that like what's good for somebody I think is like subjective to them, right? Like- 

[00:29:50] Katherine: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:29:51] Toliy: you could say like, "Hey, like staying up late is bad for you- 

[00:29:55] Katherine: Right

[00:29:55] Toliy: because of X, Y, and Z." 

[00:29:56] Katherine: Ah. 

[00:29:56] Toliy: But then maybe for the other person, like they might have a lot of reasons as to why staying up late is actually good for them, right? Because they can get this done, they enjoy like the peaceful time, it's a quiet thing, you know, this or that. 

[00:30:09] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:30:09] Toliy: So, um, it, is it the, it's like a subjective experience in that kind of way.

[00:30:16] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:16] Toliy: So it's like who is the other person to then make the judgment whether something is- Yeah ... is good or bad. They can only... I, yeah, I think the only proper way is to raise awareness about something- 

[00:30:27] Katherine: Yeah ... 

[00:30:27] Toliy: and then like potentially then if the other person has desire for them to be, for you to continue to raise awareness about something- Mm-hmm

[00:30:35] yeah, I think that the only way that this ends up in a positive way is if they make those changes- 

[00:30:39] Katherine: Yeah ... 

[00:30:39] Toliy: for them- themselves. 

[00:30:41] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:30:42] Toliy: They can't make them, even if they're quote-unquote good, right? 

[00:30:45] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:46] Toliy: Um, 'cause again, that, that good is subjective, right? 

[00:30:49] Katherine: Yeah. Well, I, I think the, the raising awareness part I agree with, but you know, when you're, you know, in a relationship there, there's, there are certain behaviors that even though you may be doing it still does affect your partner.

[00:31:04] Toliy: Mm. 

[00:31:05] Katherine: You know? So- 

[00:31:07] Toliy: Yeah, but that's also a choice that you need to make for yourself, whether like- 

[00:31:11] Katherine: Yeah ... 

[00:31:11] Toliy: again, like- Yeah, like that has to stem from you wanting to do these things and not on, on behalf of the other person Well, 

[00:31:18] Katherine: yeah. It, you will only make the change if you want to. Uh, no one's like- Well, no, you could make-

[00:31:22] unless you have a gun to your head Well, no, you could- well, no, you could- You have to be the one to make the choice 

[00:31:25] Toliy: Well, yes, but I'm saying that, like with ultimatums- Mm-hmm ... those choices, like people, those choices then like, yes, they're still making a choice, but they're making it out of like, you know, desire to get something or to like appease the other person.

[00:31:39] Katherine: Or 

[00:31:39] Toliy: fear lo- They're not making it 

[00:31:41] Katherine: on 

[00:31:41] Toliy: their own accord ... fear of losing 

[00:31:41] Katherine: the, the 

[00:31:41] Toliy: partner. Yes, yes. They're not making it- Okay ... like on their own accord. Um, so- 

[00:31:47] Katherine: Yeah ... 

[00:31:47] Toliy: yeah, I think that like- 

[00:31:48] Katherine: I'm not a huge fan of ultimatums in general. 

[00:31:51] Toliy: I d- I do kind of spell support Well, yeah, be- because also it's like I think if two people start acting in that kind of way, then like how far does it go?

[00:31:58] And how many continuous, like each person- Ultimatum, yeah ... could then make a, a, like a- 

[00:32:02] Katherine: Yeah ... 

[00:32:03] Toliy: a huge l- like a, 10-foot page list of things that they want changed. 

[00:32:07] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:32:08] Eldar: Then never ending. 

[00:32:08] Toliy: And yeah, it's never ending. Yeah. Don't do this. Don't do that. Don't do this. Don't do that. This is actually good for you, 

[00:32:14] Eldar: i, there's one example that I wanna bring up. Can you guys hear me well? Yeah. There's one example that I wanna bring up. Babe, remember when you had that little thing with drinking? 

[00:32:21] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:32:21] Eldar: Right? And then- 

[00:32:22] Katherine: I, I didn't tolerate it 

[00:32:23] Eldar: well ... and, and do you remember how I brought that to your awareness and w- what, how it all transpired?

[00:32:29] Katherine: I re- well, I remember like my ego flaring up and thinking like, "Well, I definitely don't have a problem. Like, I'm not intentionally going out and like blacking out. Like, that's not my purpose when I go out. I, I, you know, if I'm, you know, going out with a friend after work, you know?" This is in like my early, like mid-20s, early 20s.

[00:32:51] And, um, Eldar raised awareness, and I was like, "No, like this is this... " Like I, I, I, I wa- just wasn't seeing it for what it really was, and then it happened more than once. And then I thought, "Okay, like I, I definitely, like this doesn't agree with me. Like, I don't wanna, uh, you know, put myself through this but also have any issues with Eldar and worry him."

[00:33:14] And, and, uh, yeah, eventually it just like became a non-issue, 

[00:33:18] Eldar: you know? So, and, and in that moment, right, when this was happening, I didn't do an ultimatum I just raised awareness. Yeah. And obviously the, the awareness that I was raising was I was shooting... I wasn't shooting in the dark. I wasn't 

[00:33:32] Katherine: just- It was very firm.

[00:33:33] It was very firm. It was 

[00:33:34] Eldar: very firm- I 

[00:33:35] Katherine: remember- ... 

[00:33:35] Eldar: but, but it was clear ... 

[00:33:36] Katherine: feeling it. It was very clear and firm ... like it 

[00:33:38] Eldar: wasn't, it wasn't something that w- I was wrong about. It was, was happening. 

[00:33:42] You know, there's other people's testimonies. Mm-hmm. There's video. Yeah. There's audio. There's everything that shows that like, look, something's off here.

[00:33:49] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:49] Eldar: You know what I mean? What do you wanna do? I'm not telling you to stop drinking. I'm not telling you to stop hanging out with your friends. I want you to have fun. I encourage you to have fun, but unfortunately you don't know how to have fun. 

[00:34:00] Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:34:02] Eldar: That's it. Yeah. That was my awareness. Yeah.

[00:34:04] That's how I brought that up, right? 

[00:34:06] Toliy: Yeah, but it's 

[00:34:06] Eldar: all- Go have fun. Yeah, I, I told her, "You wanna drink? Get, get fucked up in front of me like that. I'll walk you right through this whole process of what you're going through, no problem. 'Cause when you're out there, I don't know where your head is going. You have zero control over yourself."

[00:34:21] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:34:22] Eldar: What is happening? And obviously after raising some awareness, the person saw it. She saw it. 

[00:34:27] Katherine: Yeah, 

[00:34:27] Toliy: I saw it for myself. Yeah, but that also, again, it requires the other person to hear the awareness, right? Yeah. To be part of the raising awareness agree with the premise, right? And then also be a willing participant in eventually a graceful way where it's not like, "Fine, I'll change that, but I don't like it," or something, or like, "I don't like..."

[00:34:50] You know? If you c- if you start doing stuff like that, then I think it's over. 

[00:34:54] Eldar: I agree. And ultimately all those types of decisions should not be, number one, an ultimatum like you said. Yeah. And number two, it should not be for me. It should be for you. 

[00:35:03] Katherine: Yeah, no. It's for the other person. Yeah. 

[00:35:05] Eldar: Because again- Yeah

[00:35:06] I'm not trying to be this parent who's gonna tell you, like, "Look, you can't go out and drink," but I'm gonna tell you that when you go out and drink and you behave this way, you are a fucking idiot. 

[00:35:16] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:35:16] Eldar: Mm-hmm. And this is not something that I made up. This is something that's objectively true. Yeah. 

[00:35:20] Toliy: And, and yeah, and, and the other...

[00:35:21] And like, I mean, Kat obviously had the choice to be like, "No, fuck you- Exactly ... for example. I'm gonna keep doing this." 

[00:35:26] Eldar: Yeah. Right? 

[00:35:27] Toliy: Right. Well, you've- And then whatever unfolded would've unfolded. Unfolded. 

[00:35:29] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:35:30] Toliy: Or you have the option to think and then, you know. 

[00:35:32] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:35:32] Toliy: Adjust. Yeah. That, that, that's what I'm saying, is that like, you need to feel that you know, what, what we said la- uh, last week you know, about change.

[00:35:39] I think it was last week we were talking about change. Yeah. That people don't not like change. They don't like to be changed, so- 

[00:35:46] Katherine: Yeah ... 

[00:35:47] Toliy: if you were forcing change- Yeah ... then yes, that would probably be met, met with, like- Resistance ... some kind of resistance. Yeah. 

[00:35:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:35:53] Toliy: But I 

[00:35:53] Eldar: w- I was also, like you said, I was also was ready to stand on business- 

[00:35:57] Toliy: Yes

[00:35:57] Eldar: if- 

[00:35:57] Katherine: I felt that ... 

[00:35:58] Eldar: it came to that. 

[00:35:59] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah, 

[00:35:59] Katherine: I felt that. Which is 

[00:36:00] Toliy: extremely important because- 

[00:36:01] Eldar: I was ready to let go. 

[00:36:02] Toliy: Yeah, which is extremely important in the conversation because the- 

[00:36:06] Katherine: But isn't it funny? That's not an ultimatum, but it is in a way, right? Because like- Well, no, this 

[00:36:11] Eldar: is a, this is a direct consequences- Yeah

[00:36:15] of certain actions. Right. Right, right. This was not like, hey, I'm trying- Of not changing ... to take away your toy. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. This is like, just ridiculousness. Yeah. I didn't say, "Stop doing this." Yeah. "Never do this." I said, "Hey, I want you to continue to have fun, and I want you to learn how to drink."

[00:36:27] And guess what? You did. 

[00:36:28] Katherine: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:28] Eldar: You learned. You realized that the way she was coping with certain stressors, anxiety, social pressures, people pleasing and all this other crap- Oh, massive 

[00:36:36] Katherine: anxiety- 

[00:36:36] Eldar: You know what I mean? ... at the time, yeah. Is to drink. 

[00:36:38] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:36:38] Eldar: You know? And then lose your head completely. Mm-hmm. Right?

[00:36:41] Where now she's raised awareness, she's gotten to therapy, she did all this stuff, and when she drinks, she's a normal person. Cohesive, normal person. Great. 

[00:36:49] Toliy: Yeah. But see, 

[00:36:50] Eldar: like- She still drinks. 

[00:36:50] Toliy: Yeah. But, but see, like, that again is the proper communication, and to me the on- like, it would've never happened without the, um, the non-attachment to the outcomes of- Whatever if something is true, and you go into a conversation with it, and you're standing on the truth, you can never stand on, like, anyone's side one way or another.

[00:37:11] You have to stand- Yeah ... with the truth. 

[00:37:13] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:37:13] Toliy: And that truth might lead to two people separating- 

[00:37:16] Eldar: Correct ... 

[00:37:16] Toliy: or that truth might be to be like the other person aligns with it, and then you're gonna go into, like, a great place. But you can't not be willing to do that. 

[00:37:26] Eldar: Yeah. You have to be able to do that. Yeah.

[00:37:27] Toliy: And the reality is, is that even if you don't want to not do that now, you're eventually going to have to make that choice. 

[00:37:34] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:37:34] Toliy: 100%. 

[00:37:35] Eldar: And I didn't go into it thinking that I was gonna lose it, c- lose the, the relationship. I knew that love will prevail. I knew her reason would prevail because she's a reasonable person.

[00:37:45] She just needed to see and raise that awareness for herself. 

[00:37:47] Toliy: And she did. But it's also... Yeah, but it's also y- you see, it's also, like, a, uh, like, it's like a, like a temperature check almost of if you have two people that want and believe in, like, love, for example, right? They're going to go 100% before the even situation even happens a particular way.

[00:38:04] And if you're about that, you could check if the other person's about that. 

[00:38:09] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:38:09] Toliy: Right? 

[00:38:09] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:38:10] Toliy: By doing that. Yeah. And you'll find out. 

[00:38:11] Eldar: You'll find that you're... You will find out. What are they gonna 

[00:38:12] Toliy: pick? 

[00:38:13] Eldar: Yeah. That's it. As long as you are actually backing the truth. 

[00:38:18] Toliy: Yes. 

[00:38:19] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? Yes.

[00:38:20] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:38:20] Eldar: And I was not unreasonable in that matter. I was v- it's clear, yes or no? 

[00:38:26] Katherine: Yeah, I agree 

[00:38:26] Toliy: Yeah, so- 

[00:38:27] Eldar: You know? 

[00:38:27] Toliy: Yeah. But, 

[00:38:28] Eldar: but- If I was some kinda like this monster who's just trying to take away your fun or your enjoyment in socializing, okay, like some oppressive husband, I'm, I was not like that. 

[00:38:36] Toliy: Yeah, but I think- You know what I mean?

[00:38:37] the majority of those kinds of situations, I think people act in, a lot of times, those kinds of ways where they wanna almost like- Oppress ... pr- they wanna oppress because they wanna create whatever person that they want without meeting that actual person- Mm-hmm ... who actually is- 

[00:38:52] Eldar: Mm ... 

[00:38:52] Toliy: that person. 

[00:38:52] Katherine: Well, yeah, a lot of people wanna control 

[00:38:54] Toliy: Without building, building that actual person.

[00:38:54] It, it comes from control. Yeah. They wanna manufacture this perfect- 

[00:38:57] Katherine: Yeah ... 

[00:38:58] Toliy: person- Yeah ... I don't know, who like- 

[00:38:59] Eldar: Just because they know what the, what, what the right thing, quote unquote, 

[00:39:02] Toliy: to be. Because they- Yeah ... they think they know. They think they know. Yeah. They think- Yeah ... they know what is good for- Exactly

[00:39:07] for everybody. Yeah. But, yeah. Usually, yeah. Someone who operates in that kinda way is probably, like, a person that many people don't like. 

[00:39:12] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:39:13] Katherine: I think, I think that's 

[00:39:14] Toliy: really- 

[00:39:15] Katherine: Universally, yeah ... really relevant in today's dating, like the checkbox, the checklist of the person that you want, and then if maybe that person, as you start getting to know them, is not fitting that, then that's when, like, the control comes in and, like, wanting to almost, like, force that person to be that.

[00:39:33] Toliy: Yeah, and 

[00:39:34] Katherine: lots of times- That happens a 

[00:39:35] Toliy: lot 

[00:39:35] Katherine: in relationships ... 

[00:39:35] Toliy: yeah, and, and lots of times, I mean, we're saying something before you went there, it happens from, like, a delusional pla- place as to what- 

[00:39:40] Katherine: Yeah ... 

[00:39:40] Toliy: somebody wants or they think that- Yeah ... you know, they either need to be or they want to get is like a- Yeah

[00:39:45] delusional- 

[00:39:46] Katherine: Yeah ... reality. That's mistake number one because- 

[00:39:48] Toliy: Yeah ... 

[00:39:48] Katherine: that right there, uh, proves that you haven't accepted the person for who they are, and then th- that's not love, you know? If you- Yeah, like- ... if you can't accept, accept them for who they are. 

[00:39:58] Toliy: Yeah, they want, like- 

[00:39:59] Katherine: You know ... 

[00:39:59] Toliy: I guess metaphorically, like, you know, people who, like, wake up at 4:00 AM, you know, go for a run s- 

[00:40:04] Katherine: Oh, God

[00:40:05] Toliy: 16 miles every day- ... no matter what. Yeah. You 

[00:40:07] Katherine: know, like- 

[00:40:08] Eldar: Yeah, 

[00:40:08] Toliy: and I think that's a, 

[00:40:09] Eldar: that's a dilemma w- at least as with Chris's situation and every- and a lot of people out there that are listening where the situation is th- exactly that, where sure, maybe one person is able to be this, quote unquote, disciplined, Daryl you know- Yeah

[00:40:22] who has their shit together, their life looks peachy, you know? But then they wanna oppress that on their partner because they th- they assume that they got it right. 

[00:40:31] Toliy: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and you- You know? ... you could still challenge if the person's Doing those things, again, out of discipline they're gonna need your help at some point or another regardless.

[00:40:41] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:40:42] Toliy: Because all that discipline, all that sac- sacrifice is going to lead to l- depression and anger. 

[00:40:48] Eldar: Yeah. Exhaustion. 

[00:40:50] Toliy: Exhaustion, yeah. 

[00:40:50] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:40:51] Katherine: And you, you're not gonna find... Like, uh, the compatibility, you're not gonna find someone that's going to conform to all of these. Well, maybe some people do.

[00:40:58] Eldar: Yeah, I think 

[00:40:59] Katherine: some people 

[00:40:59] Eldar: do. 

[00:41:00] Katherine: To, you know- Well, that, 

[00:41:00] Eldar: that's the problem ... some people do People do, but 

[00:41:01] Katherine: for how s- for 

[00:41:02] Eldar: how 

[00:41:02] Katherine: long? Yeah. But then you'll have a very unhappy partner. A resentful. You'll, you know, you'll end up getting separated, divorced, or who knows what down the line because it's, it's just, 

[00:41:10] Toliy: it's, it's gonna fall apart.

[00:41:13] Or you, or you just norm- normalize, like, poor behaviors and, like, fighting and, like- 

[00:41:15] Katherine: Well, yeah ... you know If the per- you know, it could end up really toxic. You know, maybe the per- yeah, it could end just- Yeah ... a bad way. 

[00:41:22] Toliy: Like plenty of parents, right, they have, like, kids, and then, like, they don't like each other, but they stay, and then, like- 

[00:41:26] Eldar: Yeah

[00:41:27] Toliy: they're just, like, coping in their own ways and are angry at each other and, like- 

[00:41:31] Eldar: Yeah. They're just there. 

[00:41:32] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah, and they normalize- 

[00:41:33] Katherine: Yeah ... 

[00:41:34] Toliy: those kinds of 

[00:41:35] Katherine: behaviors and things. H- how about trying to change a person after, like, let's say 40-plus years of marriage, you know? 

[00:41:40] Eldar: My mom is on that train still.

[00:41:43] Katherine: Yeah. I didn't wanna say my in-laws, but literally my in-laws, like, still don't get along, you know? And it's been- You can say it. You can s- ... over, it's been over 40 years. 

[00:41:50] Eldar: I think that's a lot of people's marriages. 

[00:41:51] Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:41:52] Eldar: And some people, like Billy for example was on our podcast talking about his divorce, believes that this is a normal part of life.

[00:42:00] Yeah. 

[00:42:01] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:42:01] Eldar: These are normal quotes. 

[00:42:02] Katherine: You know, that there's- Quotes. Quotes ... there's, um- Quotes ... there's this- Yeah. 

[00:42:05] Eldar: Yeah, but 

[00:42:05] Toliy: so is divorce though. 

[00:42:06] Katherine: There's, there's- Yeah ... i- it's, it's so normal here, uh, in America too, where people are just like, "Oh," then, you know, like- Uh, what is it? Um, like all marriages have rough patches or, you know, all these little like, uh, blanket statements on like, "Oh, you know, it's supposed to be rockier."

[00:42:23] No, things will happen, and you navigate them, but it's not supposed to suck, you know? No. It's supposed to be great. It's supposed 

[00:42:30] to be 

[00:42:30] fun. And if it sucks more than it's good, then it's not a good relationship, but I don't think people know the difference, and I think a, a lot of it starts at home. Like, if we don't have a good example of what a healthy or happy marriage is at home, well then, you know, most people don't...

[00:42:45] You know, we don't know any better, yeah. I come from a, you know, a, a separated family. I, I, I wanted to mention this too. Like, my parents have been separated for over 25 years, and they get along well, but they still, when they're together, they bicker, and they still wanna change each other. Like, my mom still complains about my dad's ways and, and vice versa, and I'm like, "Wow, these people separated all this time ago, but they're still complaining about the same stuff."

[00:43:09] Like, they haven't, you know, they never figured that out, yeah. So yeah, I think a lot of people fall into that, uh, that, maybe non-acceptance- 

[00:43:17] Eldar: I think there's- ... 

[00:43:18] Katherine: control. 

[00:43:18] Eldar: Yeah, I think that there's a healthy way that you can raise awareness about certain things and try to help the, your partner to change for the better, obviously, but imposing it, uh, using ultimatums will definitely kill love, will definitely suffocate it.

[00:43:34] Yeah. You know? 

[00:43:35] Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Rules and regulations. It's a bad way to start. Yeah, it's, it's a bad way to 

[00:43:37] Eldar: start. Rules, regulations, ultimatums, all those things are gonna be things that breed resentment, you know, anger, and ultimately is gonna be the demise of your relationship. 

[00:43:48] Toliy: Yeah, like when and what, uh, what, like, um, scenario in life can you think about, like, companies, g- governments, right?

[00:43:58] Like, all kinds of things that have rules and regulations, what do they always create? 

[00:44:05] Katherine: War. 

[00:44:06] Toliy: Yeah, they create- Static ... well, yeah, war, static anger. Static. They create all that through that. 

[00:44:12] So it's like if you need to, yeah, if you need to, in any scenario, if you need to have like, rules and regulations, and you need to be subjected to that kind of stuff, then like, yeah, you're probably- gonna be in a better place, I think 

[00:44:29] Eldar: I agree 

[00:44:30] Toliy: Guaranteed, you know?

[00:44:31] Eldar: I agree. What about all those people that are like, "These are my boundaries"? You love that word. 

[00:44:38] Katherine: Well- Yeah, I mean- Yeah, like we've gone t- from one extreme to another, from people accepting this kind of behavior and not knowing what's, like, healthy or you may be falling into toxic ways, and then you have, like, the assertive...

[00:44:49] Like, now everyone talks about boundaries and stuff like that, which is, y- you would want people to have awareness and to, to know what their boundaries are, of course. But I think now, um, y- you're still... I, I think it's still very inflexible. 

[00:45:03] Eldar: Yeah. You know? I think that the, the whole movement of, "Oh, I have boundaries," or set boundaries- Yeah

[00:45:07] I think people don't understand don't understand the severity of the box that they put themselves into. 

[00:45:11] Katherine: Mm. 

[00:45:12] Eldar: Right? A very close-minded box. 

[00:45:14] Katherine: Yeah, it's the close-mindedness 

[00:45:15] Eldar: that's, that's bad And assuming that that specific boundary applies all across the board. 

[00:45:19] Katherine: Right. No matter what. 

[00:45:20] Eldar: Right, right. No 

[00:45:20] Katherine: matter what.

[00:45:20] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah, and that rigidness right there, it's a, it's a sentence. Yeah. It's a certain sen- It's creating a lot of... mm-hmm ... sentence that you create for yourself of close-mindedness for a period of time that it's... you're just not gonna be happy. 

[00:45:32] Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:45:33] Eldar: So- 

[00:45:34] Katherine: I don't think, I don't think it, it, it can work in a relationship, that, um, rigidness.

[00:45:41] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:45:41] Katherine: Because a, a, a, a relationship re- like, I can't say requires, but y- like, flexibility is, is, is- Mm ... is a thing, you know? Yeah, 

[00:45:50] Toliy: I 

[00:45:50] Katherine: think- You have to be able to- 

[00:45:51] Toliy: Boundaries to me can only exist in transactional scenarios a- across life. 

[00:46:00] It has to be a, like, a transactional thing

[00:46:05] Katherine: So like, how would you see it, for example, like having, needing to have boundaries, for example, with family, right? Would you do you still view- Well- ... it as, as transactional? 

[00:46:16] Toliy: Yeah, that re- yeah, if you have boundaries with your family, you're probably gonna have a transactional relationship with them.

[00:46:22] Hmm. 

[00:46:24] Mike: Yeah, boundaries are more for people who don't know 

[00:46:26] Toliy: what they want. People who 

[00:46:28] Mike: can't govern themselves, right? Like if you go into a bank, they are assuming that, hey, you can't govern yourself. You cannot keep your word, so we have to set these boundaries on you. It's gotta be this terms this, and that.

[00:46:38] Mm-hmm. But I think in a way, yeah, totally what he's saying is like, most people can't govern themselves, therefore- yeah, some people met, two people met and they they can't figure out either he has boundaries or no boundaries, like two extremes. Mm-hmm. Because finding the middle way is actually very not hard, but like it's very intentional and you have to actually work at it to find the middle way.

[00:47:03] Mm-hmm. When you find the middle way, I don't- I'm not sure if you need to set your boundaries. 

[00:47:06] Eldar: I, I think that then you're talking about is respect probably. There's a certain level of respect that you carry for yourself- Yeah, for yourself and 

[00:47:13] Katherine: others ... for 

[00:47:14] Eldar: self-respect that those quote-unquote boundaries that everybody's trying to raise awareness about nowadays are automatically established or carry themselves- Yes

[00:47:22] in within those relationships- Yeah ... where people are like, "Oh- 

[00:47:25] Mike: Yes ... 

[00:47:25] Eldar: that guy, he's about this, therefore, like, I shouldn't cross, I shouldn't do that because there's respect there." 

[00:47:32] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:33] Eldar: Yes. So those come more so organically. 

[00:47:34] Mike: Yes, organically. 

[00:47:35] Eldar: Versus like, "Hey bro, like, uh, you know, don't cross that line." 

[00:47:38] Mike: But when you are able to tune yourself up on your own in whatever field it is, and you have your own, like, self-respect, you don't need to establish like, "Hey, this is my line."

[00:47:47] Like, the line is already, like, it's unspoken. In a way it's known because of the way you present yourself, the way you carry yourself in that, like Elia was saying. So the boundaries or the non-boundaries is just like, um, a way to deal with the situation but not really deal with it. It's like a Band-Aid.

[00:48:05] Eldar: Hmm. 

[00:48:05] Mike: You 

[00:48:06] Eldar: know? I think a boundary, uh, now the, the more I think about it is, um, ineffici- inefficiently... It's an efficient, inefficient way

[00:48:16] of communicating

[00:48:21] Your respect for yourself to others 

[00:48:24] Toliy: I just feel like it's like a way to- You know? ... to, to, to try to do something without thinking. 

[00:48:30] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. It's a solution to a problem, but not really solving it. It's just like a... Again, it's just a, it's a cru- it's a crutch. It's not even a solution. Well, it's a solution, not an effective one.

[00:48:39] It just instead of doing the work that's required to develop the self-respect or to develop the communication or develop whatever- Mm-hmm ... you just say, "Hey, I'm not in for this, I'm not in for that," and you 

[00:48:50] Eldar: don't find- Yeah ... the middle path. Yeah, yeah, so what... Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's, yeah- 

[00:48:53] Katherine: So- ... 

[00:48:53] Eldar: it's 

[00:48:54] Katherine: abandoned, I 

[00:48:54] Eldar: see.

[00:48:54] It's, it's... Yeah. What happens is, is like if you don't know how to deal with a situation, how to properly react to certain- 

[00:48:59] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:48:59] Eldar: things that are coming your way- 

[00:49:00] Mike: Yeah ... 

[00:49:01] Eldar: in such a way where you are happy with your own reaction, you have to establish, quote-unquote, boundary on that person and tell them- Yeah

[00:49:07] like, "Oh, you can't go there- Mm-hmm ... because I don't know and I'm not ready to be able to react properly- 

[00:49:12] Mike: Yeah ... 

[00:49:12] Eldar: in that moment or situation in accordance to my- 

[00:49:16] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:49:17] Eldar: balance, pH level." 

[00:49:19] Toliy: Yeah. It would be like, like imagine like you, invited like your friends over and you gave them like a checklist, like saying, "Hey, like you can't steal from me.

[00:49:27] Um, you can't touch the fridge. You can't do this. You can't do that." Like imagine if you did that, that, that would be like a crazy like scenario. But I think that just know some of those basic things, like there's like some type of respect or like thing that like, hey, these people are not gonna steal from you, right?

[00:49:44] They're gonna, I don't know, take off their shoes, right? Or like- 

[00:49:46] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:49:47] Toliy: whatever it is. You don't have to set those types of boundaries, those like rigid things, because one, it's gonna probably make the person feel uncomfortable, and two, if you need to do that to begin with, then like... 

[00:50:02] Eldar: You're on two different pages 

[00:50:03] Toliy: completely.

[00:50:03] Yeah, you're on completely. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:50:05] Mike: It's like a lazy and a lack of ability to communicate. You know, you just wanna like rampage in a way instead of having a, like a conversation. Like, you can obviously introduce like, "Hey, this is what I respect," in a way where it's not like you're setting a boundary, but just a conversation of getting to know one each other, saying what's valuable for y- what do you value, what's important to you, versus like, uh, just saying, "Hey, I don't want this.

[00:50:29] I don't want that." It's, uh, it's, yeah, like a lazy and an inability probably to communicate who you are or- Mm-hmm ... because you yourself might not know it, and you just say- Maybe a 

[00:50:39] Katherine: lack of understanding of yourself- 

[00:50:40] Mike: Yeah ... also communication. It's the, it's the, I think it's like the, it's the people who like- Maybe never like, um...

[00:50:52] Yeah, they have, it's always like you gotta go to one extreme or another. Like I quit drinking, I'm not gonna drink because I don't know how to deal with it, versus like, hey, I'm not really good at drinking, let me try to figure out how I can actually drink and enjoy myself and not get drunk. Plastic.

[00:51:07] Yeah. But because finding that balance is very... Well, it's much harder than just saying no, yes 100% or no 100%. Mm-hmm. But going 50%, that's very like intentional, requires work. Like it's self-development, and nobody wants to put it in when you can just say, "Okay, no, I'm not gonna do it," or, "No, don't do this." It's, yeah, it's like an easy, lazy way out.

[00:51:32] But it then it stunts your growth, it stunts your happiness. It's just you're never gonna actually be happy in life. You'll just be like, uh, in a way robotic about things that you engage in. Pinballing 

[00:51:42] Eldar: from one extreme to another. 

[00:51:43] Mike: Yeah. And you'll never be sad because you still have those urges. Like, damn, I don't wanna fucking hang out with this guy or girl, but I'm horny or I'm lonely or...

[00:51:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:51:53] Mike: So then your boundaries kind of go out the window because it's like you're still not fulfilled in life because one way or another you're like you're not in... You haven't found the balance, so. You 

[00:52:02] Eldar: haven't chosen a side. 

[00:52:03] Mike: You haven't chosen a side, and that also kills you. Mm. Because I, I'm not even sure if there's a side to choose.

[00:52:09] There's just a middle, and then everything else is just like that sucks for you. 

[00:52:15] Eldar: Yeah, that's interesting. So what would you guys recommend to Chris? 

[00:52:21] Katherine: I came in kind of like in the middle of your conversation, so I don't know. I don't think I, I got everything- 

[00:52:26] Eldar: Well, the topic- All the details, so I'm not sure

[00:52:27] the, the topic is on sacrifice. 

[00:52:29] Katherine: Okay. 

[00:52:29] Eldar: Right? Because after speaking to Chris- 

[00:52:31] Katherine: Okay ... 

[00:52:31] Eldar: um, that word was mentioned, and I thought that, um, you know... I mean, I think it's a general topic that's a good topic for when it comes to relationships, because a lot of people, quote-unquote, "sacrifice something" or compromise something in relationships in order to try to save their relationship- 

[00:52:47] Or try to make the other person happy with them. 

[00:52:48] Toliy: Mm-hmm. All 

[00:52:49] Eldar: right? So overall, he's been feeling like down in his relationship. 

[00:52:55] Toliy: Mm. 

[00:52:56] Eldar: Where he feels not himself. He feels pressure because, his significant other now is maybe now demanding for change. 

[00:53:05] Toliy: Mm. 

[00:53:05] Eldar: Right? Maybe stop partying, stop hanging out with those female friends.

[00:53:09] Toliy: Mm. 

[00:53:09] Eldar: Right? And some other things that are not jiving with her, right? Mm. And he's stuck in this place where he wants to be in the relationship- 

[00:53:18] Katherine: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:53:18] Eldar: but he also likes and enjoys some of those, some of those things as well. 

[00:53:22] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:53:22] Eldar: So he's like in, in between now. Now- That's 

[00:53:24] Katherine: a tough one ... 

[00:53:25] Eldar: and when he tries to do certain stuff, right?

[00:53:27] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:53:27] Eldar: He says that like, "Oh, I've done this, I've done that," and then they still fight. 

[00:53:31] It's not enough, right? It's not enough. Oh, he's, he feels like he's not enough, and it just keeps going. It's a never-ending loop or cycle of him changing and nothing's happening. Yeah. And then he has to kind of almost...

[00:53:42] He's resentful. 

[00:53:43] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:53:43] Eldar: And any time that they fight- Yeah ... he pulls receipts and says like- Yeah ... "Oh, but I did this for you, and I did that for you." Mm-hmm. And obviously I challenged him on that, and I said, "Hey, it seems like, you know, you're doing it wrong because it sh- those changes that you're doing should be actually for you."

[00:53:57] Katherine: He's... They should be making them... it should be- For himself ... a positive thing for him- For himself ... and, and his, and his relationship, but if it's not that way, then- 

[00:54:04] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:54:04] Katherine: Yeah, mm-hmm ... then it's not good. 

[00:54:05] Eldar: Correct. Yeah. And like Mike said, if you're really just pinballing from one side to another- Yeah ... you really don't know where you stand and who you are.

[00:54:11] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:54:11] Eldar: Yeah. So you're just kinda like, "What the fuck?" You know? 

[00:54:14] Katherine: Mm. 

[00:54:14] Eldar: You think that you, you assume that you're doing the right thing because you were told- 

[00:54:18] Toliy: Yeah ... 

[00:54:19] Eldar: right, by someone. Yeah. You were maybe scared into it, right? Pressured into it- 

[00:54:23] Toliy: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:54:24] Eldar: without thinking it through, without raising the proper awareness- 

[00:54:27] Toliy: Right

[00:54:28] Eldar: about the condition to yourself. Yeah. So you were never really empowered when you made that decision. Yeah. And if you're not empowered with making that decision, then you're always gonna be in that weird limbo of "But I still wanna hang out, but I still wanna see my friends." Yeah. "I still wanna drink and party."

[00:54:44] But now you're like, you know, imposing this- will on yourself that's not really in agreeance with who you are. Yeah. And that's where the suffering comes in. 

[00:54:52] Katherine: Before I joined the conversation, did you guys, like, um, discuss the female friend's aspect to this? 

[00:54:59] Eldar: No, I didn't go into it. It's a different topic.

[00:55:01] Katherine: That's a different topic. Yeah. Yeah, that's a different topic. But I've al- Yeah. It's an important one. I could- It is ... I could see why that could be an issue with, with any girlfriend that he c- he would have. 

[00:55:08] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:55:09] Absolutely. 

[00:55:10] Katherine: Yeah. That's a common, that's a common one too. 

[00:55:13] Mike: For sure. Okay. Yeah. I, I think this, um, this thing with Chris, what, like, uh, what you brought up, I think it's, um, I think it's like, in a way it's very, uh, not complicated, but it's interesting because, like, like, um, I'm not sure if, like, life or the way things work um, there's like a growth, right?

[00:55:37] Things either grow or they don't grow, right? In a relationship, you don't have a discussion like how I wanna grow. You wanna mature or whatever, right? You wanna become better, happier, like, things like that. But naturally, I think people, like, think about it in the sense that way, like, you know, uh, the progression of a relationship, right, you kinda start out, then you- 

[00:55:59] Eldar: I never thought about my relationship- 

[00:56:00] Mike: Yeah, no

[00:56:01] in that, in that sense. You never th- Yeah, I never thought about it that way ... you never did, no. I never thought about that. But the thing is, you never thought about it, but- 

[00:56:06] Eldar: It happens in the background ... 

[00:56:07] Mike: but it happens in the background. Sure. But when if two people are not mature in understanding of how things work, the relationship is gonna grow like a wildfire.

[00:56:15] It's gonna grow erratic in a way because there's nobody, like, steering the ship in a s- again and it's not like a conscious steering of a ship, because everybody has to steer their own ship. But, like, um, so in a way it's like the pers- the people, they're i- in this relationship, but, and which itself is also growing because she sounds like she wants to potentially take it to a next stage where she's in, in her life.

[00:56:42] But they got to this place where they're having disagreements about this. It's more like a maybe left field thing that maybe he didn't expect it or they didn't expect it which is part of why probably they're having this thing too. Because, um- Maybe Chris, Chris never spoke about it, and now he's already built up this resentment, which is like, um, things maybe evolved on their own without the person's acknowledgement of what is actually happening or the people's acknowledgement.

[00:57:15] Eldar: Oh, that definitely happened. 

[00:57:16] That definitely happened. 

[00:57:16] Mike: And I think that's, that's very like, um I don't know, good or bad, but it's definitely something that happens that people don't account for and then end up in situations like this. 

[00:57:29] Eldar: Well, yeah, that's why I think it was a good thing for him to reach out in order to be able to raise awareness- Yeah

[00:57:33] about the situation, 'cause he's like, "Yo, I don't know why I'm feeling this way. I don't know if it's the relationship or if it's something else in my life." Mm-hmm. "This is what's going on." 

[00:57:40] So we kinda went into it and dissected the whole thing, and yes, of course, it's, this has happened, and it was happening in the background.

[00:57:46] It wasn't being properly addressed. 

[00:57:48] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:57:48] Eldar: It wasn't properly, being properly challenged. 

[00:57:50] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:50] Eldar: And now he's in this muck. He's like, "Yo, why do I feel this way? Like, I feel fucking-" Yeah ... "depressed and shit," you know? 

[00:57:55] Mike: Like, "I don't feel myself." Because somebody's s- some, like, somehow, like, uh, not somebody said, but the relationship's like, "Hey, we're not having fun anymore."

[00:58:02] And, like, not that, there was no official statement, but now let's be serious. Like, "Hey, let's talk about family. Let's talk about a house. Let's talk about kids," you know? Yeah. White picket fence, all the shit. Somebody's thinking about that, you know, and the person in those times where she ma- he may be compromised or sacrificed or whatever, he never- 

[00:58:21] Eldar: Thought it through

[00:58:22] Mike: thought, thought like, "Hey, what's happening?" Like, we are going in a different direction now versus, "Hey, we're just having fun, having sex, being lovey-dovey," enjoying each other's company. Versus now, like, this relationship has reached a place where it's maybe maturing, going to a different level, and it requires an adjustment or non-adjustment or saying like, "Hey, actually, I don't wanna, like, go away from the fun.

[00:58:43] I wanna have you know, keep doing things that we've been doing." So yeah. It's like that. I mean, that's the way I was thinking about it. 

[00:58:50] Eldar: Hmm. Yeah. That definitely is a factor, I think. 

[00:58:56] Toliy: Yeah, I feel like it's almost like for a successful relationship to happen, you need it to be rooted in, again in, like, truth and in phi- I think philosophy and in, like, a, like a, uh- Mm-hmm

[00:59:07] perpetual, like, like I think at least one w- I pro- pro- probably to a certain degree both, but at least one of the two people, I think they have to have a strong, like, strong foundation, yeah, to help s- like Michael was saying, I guess, like, to steer, like, the, uh, ship. Mm-hmm. 

[00:59:24] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:59:24] Toliy: And then I think that, like, if 

[00:59:27] Eldar: someone ha- If both people are lost, it's over. 

[00:59:28] Toliy: Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. Mm-hmm. If, yeah, if someone's gonna stand on the, uh, truth, then I think that, like, I think one interesting thing, if something is truthful, I think it can't be, like, an ultimatum. 

[00:59:38] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:59:38] Toliy: Because it's almost like this is the reality of things.

[00:59:42] Yeah. Like, this actually what is, right? 

[00:59:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:59:44] Toliy: And you going against that is not, like, it's not opinion-based. It's like- 

[00:59:48] Eldar: Yeah, it's either you're delusional or you're not. 

[00:59:50] Toliy: Yeah. You know? Yeah. So, like, you can never be someone that's if you're standing on the truth, I feel like someone cannot be angry at you in the long term almost because- 

[01:00:00] Eldar: 100%, I agree with this

[01:00:01] y- 

[01:00:01] Toliy: yeah, it's impossible. It's impossible. Maybe in the short term because they don't understand something. 

[01:00:04] Eldar: Yeah, but 

[01:00:05] Toliy: over time- But ultimately- ... 

[01:00:06] Eldar: yeah, they'll get it ... 

[01:00:07] Toliy: they can't resent you over it because it's, it's the truth. 

[01:00:09] Eldar: Correct. I agree. 

[01:00:10] Toliy: But when it's subject of opinion of like, "Hey, this is good for you.

[01:00:13] This is good for you. I like this for you. I don't like this for you"- 

[01:00:15] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... 

[01:00:16] Toliy: that I think is where you create those- 

[01:00:18] Eldar: Problems ... 

[01:00:18] Toliy: problems. But yeah, because it sounds like you know- Maybe in Chris' example, maybe there's some things that, he's doing that she doesn't like or maybe, like, she's doing some things that he doesn't like, and if those things are not properly addressed or talked about, then yeah, it's gonna create- 

[01:00:35] Eldar: Yeah, I think that probably, like you guys said, and Mike said this too, though, like Chris maybe signed up for certain things without properly thinking it through, analyzing it, and understanding what's the repercussions behind it, a- assuming that it was the right thing, quote-unquote, "to do."

[01:00:51] Toliy: Well, no. Well, that, but also I think a big thing here is when someone sacrifices, I think, for someone else, I think that they have a built-in belief that the other person will do the same. 

[01:01:04] Eldar: Oh. 

[01:01:04] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:01:04] Eldar: Okay. 

[01:01:05] Toliy: And when that's not done- 

[01:01:07] Eldar: Oh, it's not fair ... 

[01:01:08] Toliy: that's when they start feeling that kind of way. But they're like, there's also a thing of like, yeah, like when you're sacrificing, you're also signing the other person up for the contract thinking that, like, they're gonna do that same exact action at a later time, but yeah, like who, who are you to guarantee or, like, how are you gonna you know, 

[01:01:28] Mike: exactly.

[01:01:28] But I guess it's also illogical to think that in that you are gonna do something, a sacrifice, you're gonna go against yourself and assume that the person will do right by you. It's like a... It doesn't make a logical thing. Like, I'm gonna commit this sin against myself so that you can then do something Good for me, which is like 

[01:01:49] Eldar: Yeah.

[01:01:50] That's like a transaction that you assume that's gonna be there, but- 

[01:01:53] Mike: Yeah ... 

[01:01:53] Eldar: it not necessarily will play out that way. But, 

[01:01:55] Mike: uh, yeah, it can't. 

[01:01:56] Eldar: I mean, almost- But people always try to pull those receipts. 

[01:01:58] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:01:58] Toliy: Well, yeah, yeah. It's almost like, for example, like you could have a scenario where maybe one person- person has more patience than the other person, and the person who's exercising patience is doing so only with the belief that, hey, in the future, this person's also gonna be patient with me.

[01:02:13] And when they don't get that patience because that person is not that patient per- person, how are they gonna feel? 

[01:02:19] Eldar: Yeah, and that's a topic on giving, obviously, and, that- that's a whole nother conversation. That's a good topic, yeah. On, on how to... When we had a lot of those conversations- Yeah ... on giving.

[01:02:27] I think even episode two or three, it totally said, you know, who benefits more, the giver or the taker? 

[01:02:33] But that's a different conversation. But yeah, I agree. I agree that, you know. I have 

[01:02:37] Katherine: to listen to that. 

[01:02:37] Mike: Oh, I think you're more, more about the intention of your actions. Like, are you being patient- Well-

[01:02:42] for which reasons? To- Yeah. Again- ... to, to get some patience back, or because you believe this is the right thing to do, and then to also potentially- Correct. 

[01:02:50] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:02:50] Mike: help the person to teach them patience 

[01:02:53] Eldar: or not. Or never ex- or never expect anything back- Or never expecting anything back ... is, is the right thing to do.

[01:02:56] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:02:57] Eldar: Or not expect any type of outcomes if you're leading by example because you can't subject- Yeah ... people to say, "You know what? Just because I'm doing the right thing- 

[01:03:05] Mike: Correct ... 

[01:03:05] Eldar: you ought to do it, too." 

[01:03:06] Toliy: Yes. Yeah. And if you have that kind of mindset, you're- It, it's all for you ... bound to grow anger and bound to grow 

[01:03:10] Eldar: like bad things.

[01:03:10] Yeah. Well, that, that means you really don't get it. Yeah. That means you don't actually understand patience. 

[01:03:15] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:03:15] Eldar: No. Right. 

[01:03:15] Mike: Or any kind of virtuous things, yeah. Um- 

[01:03:17] Eldar: Any kind of virtuous 

[01:03:18] Mike: things ... because you... Oh, yeah. Again, it's like you're in a relationship, but you have to be in a one with yourself first.

[01:03:23] Eldar: 'Cause if, if anybody- Healthy ... who taps into proper virtue, they already benefit from tapping in- Of course ... in the first place. They don't subject themselves to outwardly outcomes- 

[01:03:33] Mike: No ... 

[01:03:33] Eldar: to be able to feel a certain type of way. 

[01:03:35] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:03:37] Eldar: So there's no, like, symbiotic relationship from the outwardly things.

[01:03:40] Mike: No. 

[01:03:41] Eldar: Virtues w- work their magic internally on- It's a, it's a self-rewarding ... it's a self-rewarding thing. 

[01:03:46] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:03:46] Eldar: Which is also perpetual and never ending. Mm-hmm. 

[01:03:49] Toliy: But they also... I also think that people who, like, they do particular things to, like, get something back to them, right? Like, like if they...

[01:03:59] they're also not in belief that the process of that person, for example, I don't know, being greedy or, like, selfish, that process, like it doesn't correct itself based on the actions of the of the other person 

[01:04:12] Eldar: Okay, what do you mean? 

[01:04:13] Toliy: Someone who's... do you need to... For, for example, if someone's acting selfish or greedy, right?

[01:04:19] Mm-hmm. For, for example. Does the other party have to, like, punish that person, or will the acts of greed or selfishness punish itself? 

[01:04:27] Mike: They are- Always punish themselves ... they will, but no- 

[01:04:29] Toliy: Right? ... 

[01:04:29] Mike: people don't believe in 

[01:04:30] Toliy: that- Well, that- ... 

[01:04:31] Mike: typically ... 

[01:04:31] Toliy: that's what I'm saying. Yes. If you bought into that- Yeah ... you're not gonna need to impose sanctions or punishments- Correct

[01:04:36] on the other party. Yeah. Or boundaries. Because... Yes. Or, yeah. Because those- Or anything. Yeah ... those selfish or those, like, you 

[01:04:42] Mike: know- 

[01:04:43] Toliy: They will play out themselves ... ugly feelings. Justice will happen. Yes. 

[01:04:45] Mike: Yes. 

[01:04:45] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:04:46] Mike: But it's hard to... It's a hard thing to- 

[01:04:47] Toliy: Yeah. Well, you- ... understand and to believe in ... yeah, you need to be a, uh, that someone that, that buy, buys into that.

[01:04:52] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:04:53] Eldar: A- and but the thing is, if you're, if you're lucky enough, like you said, if you're in a relationship which, uh, what's his name? If you're in a relationship where you do have that one party who has the ability to steer the ship or who's grounded in philosophy or virtue, right? They have the ability to expedite your your development, because the s- the daggers that might come your way from the greediness or selfish behavior will bounce off that person and the karmic process will work a lot faster than you 

[01:05:23] Toliy: think.

[01:05:23] Yes. That, that's the whole point. 

[01:05:24] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. I got it. You were right about that. 

[01:05:26] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. But people don't believe that that's what's gonna ac- they a- they... That's also why of, like, people are like, "Yo, they're acting greedy, we gotta punish them." You know? 

[01:05:35] Eldar: Yeah, yeah. 

[01:05:37] Toliy: But not give them shit or something, right?

[01:05:38] Yeah. Like, "Oh, they wanna take everything? Like, ne- next time we're not gonna give them anything," for example, right? Versus, like, allow them to be greedy, and let them also then- So you'll- ... they're gonna feel, they're gonna feel the, uh, the backlash themselves- Yeah ... of what being greedy does to you. 

[01:05:55] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:05:55] Eldar: Spoken like a true liberal, man.

[01:05:59] Toliy: You know? Toliy's a liberal. 

[01:06:01] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:06:02] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:06:03] Mike: It's just a lot of times that, that what you're describing, it takes many, many greedy moments or whatever moments for the person to click. 

[01:06:11] Toliy: But it's also the only proper way that greed actually gets, like, dealt with, for example, or any of those things get dealt with.

[01:06:17] Yeah, 

[01:06:17] Mike: of course. 

[01:06:17] Toliy: But it's the b- but most people probably have the belief that it doesn't get dealt... That, like, they feel like 

[01:06:22] Mike: bad 

[01:06:22] Toliy: people- There's 

[01:06:22] Eldar: no justice. 

[01:06:23] Toliy: Yes. Mm-hmm. They feel like bad people just get away with it forever. 

[01:06:27] Mike: Yeah. No. Yeah. But that's why, yeah, ultimately k- you gotta- 

[01:06:31] Katherine: I don't realize how we got here, though.

[01:06:33] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:06:34] Eldar: Well, how we got here- It's okay ... is that, what we're trying to say that there's a balance and justice that's baked in in any type of relationship. 

[01:06:40] Katherine: Okay. 

[01:06:41] Eldar: Okay? Mm. That a lot of times the boundaries and all this control or pressure that we put on our partners is not even necessary. 

[01:06:48] Katherine: Mm. 

[01:06:48] Eldar: Yeah. As long as that individual who understands virtue, who understands things that are true about r- reality and life and themselves, right?

[01:06:56] As long as they're part of that relationship, everything will sort, sort itself out. 

[01:07:00] Katherine: It kinda sorts itself out.

[01:07:01] Eldar: With time. 

[01:07:02] Mike: Yeah. Of course. 

[01:07:03] Eldar: And the other individual who's in a loving relationship benefits from those things. So imagine how hap- how lucky you are being with me. 

[01:07:10] Katherine: So lucky. 

[01:07:11] Eldar: Good. Say, as, uh, as Warren would say if he was here, "Say that again.

[01:07:15] Say it louder." Is that what he says? Or he goes- 

[01:07:17] Katherine: He actually goes, "You're lucky." "You're 

[01:07:18] Eldar: lucky." "You're lucky." "You're lucky." "You're lucky." Yeah. 

[01:07:19] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:07:20] Eldar: So- 

[01:07:22] Toliy: Yeah, 

[01:07:24] Katherine: like, the, 

[01:07:26] Toliy: I mean, the, the, this isn't, like, in, in the scenario, obviously it's a small thing, but in actuality it could be a larger thing. But just, like, one, one just interesting thing I noticed yesterday when you guys were on the phone, Elder wanted Chinese- 

[01:07:37] Mike: Mm-hmm

[01:07:37] Toliy: Kat wanted Korean. 

[01:07:39] Yeah. You know? And then Elder was pushing for Chinese- Mm ... Kat was pushing for Korean. But like, yeah, eventually if Kat's every time like, "No," they're like, "Fuck you, we're getting Korean," if that happens every single time, then like, y- yeah, like, m- if that's what she would be doing, for example, right?

[01:07:55] Then, like, I think it'll create a particular type of feeling for the other party that, like, they're, that, that, that they're gonna feel the effects of, like, imposing not being open to the, to what the other person is saying or not being, like, have any kind of understanding or vice versa if it was being done, that way.

[01:08:12] And so happened to be that last night was Chinese and today was Korean. 

[01:08:16] Eldar: Oh, yeah. 

[01:08:16] Katherine: That's true. That 

[01:08:17] Eldar: is true. 

[01:08:18] Katherine: Korean just fell on my, uh, on my lap. Oh, that was a good 

[01:08:20] Eldar: example. Look, see, Toliy- 

[01:08:21] Katherine: Yeah ... 

[01:08:21] Eldar: was paying attention. 

[01:08:22] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:08:22] Katherine: Yeah. So- Well, I wou- I would hope that food orders are, are definitely, like, the least of people's, like- Well, 

[01:08:27] Toliy: no, but 

[01:08:27] Katherine: you would 

[01:08:27] Toliy: think

[01:08:27] Katherine: troubles. You would think ... 

[01:08:28] Toliy: but it's also, again, like- But like- That's a small example ... that's, 

[01:08:31] Katherine: yeah. 

[01:08:33] Toliy: That's too true, man ... but if it happens over and over again, imagine if one person- Yeah ... was oppressing the other person over and over again. No, for 

[01:08:36] Katherine: sure. 

[01:08:36] Toliy: Yeah. Whoever is getting 

[01:08:37] Katherine: oppressed 

[01:08:37] Toliy: is not- What else is happening?

[01:08:38] If that's, that small thing- That's a small thing. Yeah ... yeah. You could probably find 100 more things in that relationship that are going, going on. 

[01:08:43] Eldar: That are suffocating that relationship- 

[01:08:44] Toliy: Yeah ... slowly. 

[01:08:44] Katherine: No, yeah. 

[01:08:45] Toliy: Yes. I, I 

[01:08:45] Katherine: get it. 

[01:08:46] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:08:49] Eldar: So what do you, what would you suggest- 

[01:08:50] Toliy: All, all it takes for your, for your Cybertruck's glass to crack is that one little hit, right?

[01:08:55] Eldar: Over a long period of time, yeah. 

[01:08:57] Toliy: Yeah. Imagine you never get your Chi- Chinese, what's gonna happen? 

[01:09:00] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:09:02] Katherine: Perhaps this- 

[01:09:03] Eldar: Take her, take her to the curb. 

[01:09:04] Katherine: Perhaps this would be a, a, a very, uh, important situa- uh, like it would be important in your relationship, in your future relationship, let's 

[01:09:13] Toliy: say. Well, no, I, no I, 

[01:09:13] Katherine: I think it- Like if, if she's not willing to get the takeout that you want.

[01:09:16] Well, 

[01:09:16] Toliy: no, I think it's just it, it, it's more, I think, like, it, it sounds like a funny scenario, but I think it's a metaphorical, like- The devil's in the 

[01:09:24] Eldar: details. 

[01:09:24] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. It's like a metaphorical- ... like, breakdown, right? The little stuff. Like... 

[01:09:28] Eldar: Yeah, no, I think that To- I think that, I think that what you guys missed maybe in Toliy's analogy here is that the fact that with certain things where the decisions and everything else that happens that's so small and tiny and minute, you don't see the ripples that are- Yes

[01:09:43] that are gonna happen- 

[01:09:43] Toliy: Mm-hmm ... 

[01:09:44] Eldar: yeah, on the back end. But if you compromise and you're go with it with an open mind, you're gonna get both sides, and both people are gonna get, you know, their turn or their share, and they're gonna be- Yes ... happy, and there's gonna be this balance that happens organically. But it all happens behind the scenes.

[01:10:00] But if not, right, if there is oppression, if there is misunderstanding and not acceptance, then those things will add up, and then those things are gonna keep irking you, irking you- Yes ... and you're gonna, you're gonna have this thing about, um, your, your, you know, your relationship. Yeah. 

[01:10:16] Toliy: And als- also I'm also a believer that if that's what's going on on that, on that, for example, just that, for example, to- topic, and it happens over and over again, where one person's getting their, their their way every time in, in, like, a greedy way, I think it's a natur- that it'll be a natural human instinct for that person to continue to push it to see where else can they win.

[01:10:36] It'll constantly be a desire for more and more of exactly what they want only, more and more of, like, selfishness. 

[01:10:44] Eldar: Which is okay, because then there's also a lesson baked in at the end of that rainbow. 

[01:10:47] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:10:48] Eldar: Yes. Yeah. So what do you suggest for Chris?

[01:10:59] He has to revisit those conversations, I think, properly this time. 

[01:11:03] Katherine: Yeah. I think there's a difference in, um, in values And that- 

[01:11:11] Eldar: There might be. There might be, but 

[01:11:12] Katherine: ultimately- That's... You know, you guys spoke of virtue and stuff, but I th- I think this is pretty important. Like, this- If 

[01:11:16] Eldar: you sit 

[01:11:16] Katherine: them down- He has to go back to the foundation

[01:11:18] Eldar: if you sit people down and you actually talk to their reason or summon, try to summon their reason, you ask general questions as like, "Hey, would you, don't you want Chris to be happy?" "Yes, I do." 

[01:11:30] Toliy: Yeah, of 

[01:11:30] Eldar: course. "Don't you want her to be happy?" "Of course, I do." Right? You quickly find out that they will advocate actually for certain things that make up who Chris is or make up who she is, right?

[01:11:42] So if Chris is happy going to hang out with his quote-unquote female friends and drinking and partying that's what makes up Chris, and that's part of his happiness, as long as he's not violating. 

[01:11:54] Katherine: Right. 

[01:11:54] Eldar: Right? 

[01:11:55] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:11:55] Eldar: Like I said to you, right, as long as you're not an idiot, go have fun. I don't have a problem with you socializing and drinking socially.

[01:12:01] No problem. Just don't be an idiot, right? But those, the, those two parties have to come to that conclusion as to, to define what that looks like and what it actually is. Yeah, it's- Because a lot of times I think people can be, can be unreasonable in their demands of change of a- Mm-hmm ... of a partner.

[01:12:20] Toliy: Well, yeah- Yeah ... because I think it's 

[01:12:21] Eldar: also- Because they might be jealous about certain things, but Chris might not be doing any infidelity because he's not that type of guy. This is not what he believes in, right? 

[01:12:32] Toliy: Yeah, and I think they're also trying to, like, hammer what their opinion is of what's good for somebody versus, like, what's actually good.

[01:12:40] It's not like- 

[01:12:41] Eldar: Correct ... 

[01:12:42] Toliy: yeah, standing on the truth and standing for what you think is better for the other person I think are two, two different- 

[01:12:46] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:12:47] Toliy: things. But it's like you could say, like, oh, yeah, like being healthier, like eating healthier food, like yeah, that's, that's like, uh, you know, just universally, I guess, good- 

[01:12:56] Eldar: Yeah

[01:12:56] Toliy: for example. But if you oppress someone into doing something or if you oppress someone to not going out or not doing this or doing this or doing that, going with you here, going with you that, if you're doing it in that kind of oppressive way, then yeah, uh, yeah, I don't think it's gonna end well. 

[01:13:10] Eldar: And I think that, going out and partying, it's also like those things also come and go in phases of people's lives, obviously, you know?

[01:13:18] As you start to mature, as you start to grow, your body deteriorates a little bit more. Those things naturally kinda fall, fall- Mm-hmm ... on its side, on its- 

[01:13:25] Mike: Yeah ... 

[01:13:26] Eldar: on their own. You know where it's like, "All right, I got it out of my system. I need something else. I need something more. I need something maybe more of substance or maybe more chill."

[01:13:35] You know? And you pick up some different hobbies that may be more of an agreeance with your partner, you know? But, to force that type of thing is to potentially give birth to resentment and actually create a rift, an invisible rift, a very slow one. 

[01:13:50] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:13:51] Eldar: Um- 

[01:13:51] Toliy: The invis- the invisible one is big because no one's realizing that this is what they're doing.

[01:13:55] What, 

[01:13:55] Eldar: what's actually going 

[01:13:55] Toliy: on, what they're doing. 

[01:13:56] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah, again, they're just happy- They're like, "Yes, I finally got my way. Chris is not drinking and not partying anymore." Yeah. Right? He's home. But how does he actually feel inside? 

[01:14:03] Toliy: Yeah, so like if you laid out- He's bottling everything shit. Yeah, if you laid out the consequences of people's actions to them, of course no one's gonna "Hey, he'll come with you here, but, but- Yeah

[01:14:12] are you okay with him being angry with you after?" 

[01:14:14] Eldar: Correct. Correct. 

[01:14:16] Toliy: No one's gonna go for those kind of things. 

[01:14:18] Eldar: Yeah. And I think a, a lot of people don't have these types of conversations in order to get to the bottom of these things, and really advocate for each other's happiness. 

[01:14:27] Toliy: Well, that, that's also why like, yeah, like people create boundaries because they they can't proper- like- 

[01:14:34] Eldar: Communicate

[01:14:34] Toliy: the, the people who they're involved with, they don't understand, I guess, the consequences of their actions, so they have to lay them out for them- 

[01:14:42] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:14:42] Toliy: in like an aggressive, almost like- 

[01:14:44] Eldar: Contractual way. 

[01:14:45] Toliy: Yeah, yeah. And again, in a transactional way. 

[01:14:48] Eldar: Yeah.

[01:14:52] Toliy: Yeah. Do you need to tell your friends not to steal from your house? 

[01:14:57] Eldar: Yeah 

[01:14:59] Toliy: If you did, are you guaranteed to create very weird relationships with 

[01:15:03] Eldar: your friends, for example? But if you, but if you get into a contractual agreement like a marriage, then you 100% have to advocate for a prenuptial agreement.

[01:15:09] Correct? 100%. Because both, both carry a, a transactional situation. 

[01:15:14] Toliy: 100%, yeah. 

[01:15:16] Eldar: By default. 

[01:15:17] Toliy: By default. 

[01:15:18] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:15:19] Toliy: Right? Yeah, because there's also compromise of thinking if that situation arises. 

[01:15:24] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:15:25] Toliy: That's guaranteed also. 

[01:15:26] Eldar: Yeah. That's true. That's only fair. 

[01:15:29] Toliy: Yeah. One in one moment that person could, could be your best friend, and then, then, like, another moment- The worst enemy.

[01:15:34] Yeah. 

[01:15:35] Eldar: And that happens all the time. 

[01:15:36] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:15:37] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:15:38] Eldar: Yeah.

[01:15:42] So what, what do you guys advise? 

[01:15:43] Mike: Yeah, I was thinking about like what would I say, a thing about Chris is like I would say like to, I would ask him maybe when you got into the relationship, what was like, uh, what was your intention? What was your desire? Like, why, why did you wanna get into it? 

[01:15:56] Eldar: He's getting his beak wet.

[01:15:57] Mike: Yeah. What 

[01:15:57] Eldar: the 

[01:15:57] Mike: fuck? Yeah, but ultimately like, you know, obviously that's, that's for sure. 

[01:16:01] Eldar: That's a 

[01:16:01] Mike: given. That's a given. But like, what does he wanna like extract out of this relationship? Not in like a extraction sense, but like is this relationship serving him? Is it ultimately serving him? Is it making him happy?

[01:16:14] Is and, and- Well, not 

[01:16:15] Eldar: right now ... 

[01:16:16] Mike: yeah, not right now, but overall, like, um 

[01:16:21] Eldar: Until he figures out the balance 

[01:16:22] Mike: Until he figures out the balance, for sure. But like, what is this... Is it serving the purpose, when it's good? Was it serving the purpose? And obviously if she, if, if she wants him to, you know, be change, or is he willing to change?

[01:16:35] Like, does he wanna change? And can he make a honest change without feeling like that, like, uh, that resentment towards her? Well, it sounds like it's already, like he already feels it, but yeah. I guess it's like, um, it's an interesting place, you know, because like resentment is a hard thing to kind of- Move from

[01:16:56] move forward from. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I think maybe it's a challenge to him, like life is given... Again, I guess al- I always think like if something happens to somebody, what's the purpose? What is this here to teach us? What is it here to show 

[01:17:07] Katherine: us? Yeah, it's a lesson. 

[01:17:08] Mike: So what does he need to understand here?

[01:17:10] Maybe he needs to understand like, "Hey, actually, you know, I don't want to get into this relationship. I just wanna keep hanging out." Mm-hmm. And then I guess pick that side, if that sounds like a more appealing thing. If he's like, "Hey, you know what? I had my partying and I really care for this girl and I do want more," whatever that means, you know, like, m- you know, something more serious, more mature, more m- deeper then you say like, yeah, then you, maybe you decide like, "Hey, you know, I had enough of the partying and actually this is- 

[01:17:35] What I'm want to... this is valuable to me, you know, now. You know, sometimes maybe you have to be faced with that choice too. I don't 

[01:17:41] Katherine: know. Yeah. Or, or to learn how to communicate if, if this relationship doesn't work out. 

[01:17:46] Mike: If it- 

[01:17:46] Katherine: But learning how to communicate this to any future, you know- Yes ... prospects.

[01:17:51] So I think that's where this is going is like- Learning to communicate is the biggest thing ... learning to communicate. Yeah, yeah. Learning what it is that you want, like your lifestyle. Yes. Like, those are things you have to present before you get serious with someone because if your lifestyle is a problem for them, then it's gonna be a problem for both of you.

[01:18:07] Yeah. Yeah. You know? And I think that's where he's at right now. 

[01:18:10] Eldar: Yeah. The problem was with him needing to make certain decisions under pressure. 

[01:18:15] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:18:16] Eldar: Because the things were prompted, and now he has to think about them. Mm-hmm. 

[01:18:19] Toliy: That's also what happens again with two people- When you don't think ahead

[01:18:23] when not even that. When two people, like, don't actually know or understand- Each other ... who, who each other is. Yeah. And they put those pause buttons by sacrificing. 

[01:18:31] Eldar: By sacrificing. 

[01:18:32] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:18:34] Eldar: So Chris, if you're listening and if you're in this pickle, you know who to call Ghostbusters. Nah, call us up.

[01:18:45] We'll talk about it. 

[01:18:46] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:18:46] Eldar: We'll help you out. If you need to come out and be a guest on the pod and we'll really- Or you can call ... dive deep. 

[01:18:51] Katherine: Yeah, like he can be live, right? 

[01:18:53] Eldar: Or you could call in. We can be live. Call 

[01:18:54] Katherine: in. 

[01:18:55] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:18:55] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:18:55] Eldar: So babe, communication. You would suggest com- this is the learning thing for him, to be able to communicate.

[01:19:00] Katherine: Yeah. I feel like communicating your values and, like, what's important for you or where you're at in life- 

[01:19:06] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:19:06] Katherine: in general. Like, what are the things that you like or dislike, whatever. 

[01:19:10] Eldar: There's 

[01:19:10] Katherine: a whole art behind that as well. Those are things that need 

[01:19:12] Eldar: to be discussed. To properly- Yeah, it's hard

[01:19:13] communicate values, it's almost like- I'm- ... properly communicate boundaries, right? Like some 

[01:19:16] Katherine: people are like, "

[01:19:17] Eldar: Oh"- 

[01:19:18] Katherine: But like, like look at... I have struggled so much, let's say in the past, with my communication. 

[01:19:22] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:19:22] Katherine: But I remember when you and I st- were go- like, were getting to know each other. We met and we started, you know, hanging out and like really getting to know each other.

[01:19:30] I was very clear on, like, my values. W- those things that were important to me. And, uh, my l- my journey has been interesting and my communication has improved. But even back then, I rem- I remember I was able to, to, I feel like really make a point out of that,

[01:19:50] Eldar: like what? Remind me of a value that, like, you were like, "Yeah, I'm about this," and like, "I had to uphold something," or like

[01:19:55] Like- 

[01:19:55] Katherine: I think we, we spoke about how important it was, like, family and wanting to expand that and- 

[01:20:03] Eldar: Oh, you didn't 

[01:20:03] Katherine: get that ... I, I don't know. Well, I didn't get it, but we, we had, um- 

[01:20:07] Eldar: Agreeance on 

[01:20:10] Katherine: it? I don't know. No, you know what, you- Give me, give me a moment. Like, I, I need a minute ... 

[01:20:14] Eldar: yeah, I don't think that you've proposed anything like- 

[01:20:16] Katherine: Yeah

[01:20:16] Eldar: "Hey, these are my values," you 

[01:20:18] Katherine: know? No, it, it wasn't like- That's not a 

[01:20:19] Eldar: common sense thing, you 

[01:20:20] Katherine: know? It wasn't like a list that I presented to you, but these were things that we talked about, you know? Like- Yeah ... I never had to, like, sit you down and say, "Hey, like, this behavior- Yeah ... of yours is disrespectful."

[01:20:30] Which was, it was just a normal thing. We had, like, a, like, a mutual agreeance. Yeah. But I feel like people have to have these conversations now. There's a lot, there's impro- inappropriate behavior when you're in a relationship with someone. 

[01:20:42] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:20:42] Katherine: Um, and it's not always clear to people, you know? Values are different, 

[01:20:46] Eldar: yeah, I think it's a- It's a- I think they maybe form of, of, v- those types of values maybe form a small little base, right? 

[01:20:52] Katherine: It's 

[01:20:53] Eldar: a base. Of, of a relationship. It's a 

[01:20:54] Katherine: foundation, 

[01:20:54] Eldar: yeah. But ultimately, I think that there are, you know, the digger you d- the, the- 

[01:20:58] Katherine: Deeper ... 

[01:20:58] Eldar: deeper you dig, you find out that the relationship dynamic of relationship requires a lot more deeper thinking.

[01:21:04] Toliy: Yeah, I think val- values are dead. 

[01:21:06] Eldar: Values are dead, bro. Mm. Yeah. 

[01:21:08] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:21:08] Eldar: You know what I mean? Because w- who's bringing, what are you bringing to the fucking thing and saying, "These are my values?" Like, what are you talking about? 

[01:21:14] Katherine: No, it's not like you presented them like, "These are my values." Right. But the things that are important to you, the things that matter, whatever they are- 

[01:21:20] Eldar: I think you had no choice in the matter- 

[01:21:22] Katherine: They 

[01:21:23] Eldar: need to be discussed

[01:21:23] In those conversations. You know? I oppressed you, I told you how it's gonna be- ... what it is, and you said- ... "Yes, yes, yes, sign me up." You didn't read the contract at all. 

[01:21:31] Toliy: It was, like, a h- a thousand-page contract, and she signed it 

[01:21:34] Eldar: right away. She signed it right away. Yeah. She's like, "Holy shit, this is great."

[01:21:37] "I'm jumping in blind," you know what I mean? Um, y- I got her. I got her good. 

[01:21:45] Katherine: He did. 

[01:21:46] Eldar: You hooked her. You did. You know? I mean, look, 17 years later, I am happy. My testimony's always the same. You know what I mean? Obviously, there's some growth to be done, and, uh, right now I'm obviously more, a little bit more stern with Catherine because everybody knows w- we're building thick skin and stuff.

[01:22:01] And Catherine is a different era right now, which is the Phoenix era- 

[01:22:05] Toliy: Yes ... 

[01:22:05] Eldar: which is very good. But- Standing up for herself ... 

[01:22:07] Toliy: but, but you're also being oppressed by another, uh, woman. 

[01:22:10] Eldar: Yeah, Fan- And it's 

[01:22:11] Katherine: not me. 

[01:22:12] Eldar: Oh. It's a 

[01:22:14] Toliy: Palands. 

[01:22:14] Katherine: It's 

[01:22:14] Eldar: Penny. You know what she's asking for? What? I don't wanna say this on air, but I will.

[01:22:19] Toliy: All right. 

[01:22:21] Eldar: All right, so when the babies are born And

[01:22:26] you might no- not know, uh, what's his name, you might not know this Toliy, but when the babies are born- Okay? Wife. 

[01:22:33] Mike: I know where you're going. 

[01:22:35] Eldar: It's very important- To b- to, to be her pup. No. To, no, to have skin-to-skin contact. 

[01:22:40] Mike: Okay. 

[01:22:41] Katherine: Baby, you sound such a weirdo. 

[01:22:43] Eldar: What is 

[01:22:44] Katherine: it now? To what? 

[01:22:44] Eldar: It is creep up. And a lot of times, yes, we go skin-to-skin.

[01:22:46] Come here. And we hug skin-to-skin. 

[01:22:51] Katherine: She's just hungry. So she's asking you this right now. For the public- She's asking right now ... she's hungry. She usually eats at 5:30 and it is 8:00. Yeah. 

[01:22:57] Eldar: Hey, babe, can I, can I just live with 

[01:22:58] Katherine: that little thing? I can't. It just sounded too weird. Skin-to-skin. I can't. It was.

[01:23:04] Eldar: Yes. She just wants to hug. 

[01:23:06] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:23:07] Eldar: Hug dad. No, but she is hungry, yeah. So, so what was I saying? Before that? Toliy said values are dead. 

[01:23:13] Katherine: Values are dead. 

[01:23:14] Eldar: Yeah, values are dead. Yeah, because ultimately, like I said I, I think I oppressed Catherine with a very specific storyline, with a very specific image or dream.

[01:23:22] Katherine: Which are your values. 

[01:23:24] Eldar: Yes, my values. 

[01:23:25] Katherine: You had a- I think- ... strong value set. And I- 

[01:23:27] Eldar: I think you 

[01:23:27] Katherine: came 

[01:23:28] Eldar: in and 

[01:23:28] Katherine: you tried to, 

[01:23:28] Eldar: like, approach me with yours- I 

[01:23:29] Katherine: jived with it ... and it 

[01:23:30] Eldar: didn't 

[01:23:30] Katherine: work. That's why that's what you, you were- Yes ... able to sell it to me- Yes ... because I jived with it. If I didn't- 

[01:23:35] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:23:36] Katherine: I would've been like, "This is not the guy for me," and I would've- Yeah

[01:23:38] probably not- For sure ... continue dating you For sure. So that's, that's what I'm 

[01:23:42] Eldar: saying. For sure. But ultimately, obviously there was a philosophy thing presentation obviously was given to Catherine, she signed up. 

[01:23:48] Katherine: Oh, for 

[01:23:49] Eldar: sure. And to this day, it's e- almost 18 years later, like I said, my testimony is that I'm happy and Catherine still comes around and she still lives in the, in the house with us, you know?

[01:23:58] Katherine: I live in the house with him and Penny. With, 

[01:24:00] Toliy: with, with, with us. Yes, she lives in the house with us. I- You know 

[01:24:02] Eldar: what I'm saying? By choice. 

[01:24:04] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:24:04] Eldar: You know? And she's- Yeah ... she laughs a lot and we have a lot of fun, fun, and, and I hope, hopefully that'll continue, based on those things. Those threads are still there.

[01:24:13] Those roots are still there. And we're happy. And now we have a family. 

[01:24:18] Toliy: Li- lives in the house with us. 

[01:24:19] Eldar: Yeah, she lives in the house with us. Sometimes Penny asks her to sleep in the nook and she's she doesn't want, she doesn't wanna sleep in the nook. Maybe one day I'll convince Catherine to sleep in the nook.

[01:24:30] Yeah. But yeah, it's good. But yeah, pa- communication was, was one of the biggest keys there. Yeah. And now- 

[01:24:40] Katherine: And now that's 

[01:24:40] Eldar: it ... somebody else is communicating. Time to wrap it up. All right. So let's do the final thoughts. Yeah. Let's wrap this up. Let's help Chris with the la- um, last couple words of wisdom that we have for him in order to be a, for him to get through these dark times of learning through, uh, pressure, because he found himself in this position.

[01:24:58] And Toliy's gonna start, I'm gonna remind you, Toliy, what to start with, with your final thoughts. It all comes back to the clothing The choice Chris made with the clothing. 

[01:25:10] Katherine: Yeah. Please. 

[01:25:11] Mike: I didn't, I- Go ahead ... all right. 

[01:25:12] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:25:14] Mike: Damn. 

[01:25:15] Eldar: You have to give it to him, raw. 

[01:25:16] Mike: You gonna put the meanest... You, you set him up to be the meanest guy though, man.

[01:25:19] That was like a setup. This is, this is- He came to alley-oop ... this is a good one. This is a good one. 

[01:25:24] Toliy: This one's bad. 

[01:25:25] Eldar: This one's bad? 

[01:25:26] Mike: Yeah. This is 

[01:25:26] Eldar: bad. But it's important? 

[01:25:28] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:25:28] Eldar: Or is he not ready for it? If he doesn't have to explain 

[01:25:30] Katherine: it- Don't, don't- What? ... don't bash the guy while he's down. Come on. 

[01:25:34] Eldar: No, I'm not gonna bash him.

[01:25:35] I mean, it's, it's reality. Remember- Well, Toliy's saying the producer's not good ... remember, if you speak the truth and reality they can only be resentful for so long. How about 

[01:25:41] Toliy: if, if he so happens to get this far in the podcast- 

[01:25:43] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Yeah ... which I 

[01:25:44] Toliy: don't think he will. 

[01:25:45] Eldar: Okay. 

[01:25:45] Katherine: In the 

[01:25:46] Toliy: episode. Right? But if he does- 

[01:25:46] Eldar: Okay

[01:25:47] Toliy: he'll have to, he'll have to, like, a he will redeem this question as like, like- Oh ... this is the, uh, the rebate. 

[01:25:54] Eldar: The rebate. Okay, good. The thing. That's fair. 

[01:25:55] Toliy: Yeah. That is fair. He'll ask about it. 

[01:25:56] Eldar: That's fair. That's fair. That's fair. I'll like it. All right. So then we'll go with 

[01:26:00] Toliy: Kat. Yeah, but if he never asks this, then you know that he didn't get this far.

[01:26:03] Eldar: That's right, and then we don't have to tell. 

[01:26:05] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:26:05] Eldar: We'll just tell our s- the audience next time because they're listening. They're like, "Yo, what the fuck does- Yeah ... what kind of dirt does Toliy have on Chris?" Mm-hmm. 

[01:26:11] Toliy: No, not me. It's just in general what, 

[01:26:14] Eldar: what would 

[01:26:14] Toliy: happen. 

[01:26:14] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. It, it's true. You know? It's true.

[01:26:16] Yeah. I'm just asking. I'm just asking next time. I'm just asking. 

[01:26:17] Katherine: Okay, Toliy. 

[01:26:20] Eldar: All right, babe, what do you have for Chris? 

[01:26:22] Give us a nugget. Give him a nugget. 

[01:26:25] Katherine: I'm, final thoughts is possibly where I go blank and I have almost nothing to say. 

[01:26:31] Eldar: Mm. '

[01:26:31] Katherine: Cause I guess maybe what I've said already- 

[01:26:33] Eldar: Yeah, yeah, 

[01:26:33] Katherine: yeah

[01:26:34] I've said or I agree with you guys. So I'm just... I, I hope that this is helpful, and I hope he, you know, maybe either visits us or calls in- 

[01:26:42] Mike: Yeah ... 

[01:26:42] Katherine: so we could get more context or so he could, just chat with us, and hopefully we can help him out. 

[01:26:48] Mike: Good. 

[01:26:48] Katherine: That's it. 

[01:26:49] Mike: Mike

[01:26:52] Yeah. I don't have any final thoughts, but I was I was thinking about you know, the situation that he's in. Uh, like, you know, how the resentment stuff. But... And the only thing that came to my mind is, um, it's important to communicate to her, like, "Hey," uh, finding the right words to structure, to say how you feel, and I think that'll maybe bring them closer and to have an honest conversation.

[01:27:19] But I'm not sure, like, how to do it, you know, and if he's ready for it, and how to you know, how to get ready for it. But I think carrying it is just gonna be, uh, like I don't know how he could survive it. But if you be honest, the worst thing you can do is to be honest, then, you know- Yeah ... the person will hear you- Yeah

[01:27:38] and you at least have a clear conscience, and you'll do what's right for yourself. 

[01:27:41] Eldar: Yeah. For yourself. Yeah. That's the most important thing. 

[01:27:44] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:27:44] Eldar: Yeah, my final thoughts for Chris is, um, obviously keep digging. That is the most important thing here, right? He's obviously came, came across to wanna think about this stuff because he's in pain.

[01:27:54] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:27:54] Eldar: Right? And pain obviously is a lot of times a good motivator. Yeah. We've talked about pain a lot, how pain is a, is a good motivator to start thinking, period. 

[01:28:02] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:28:03] Eldar: All right? Thinking about your problems, thinking about how to solve them, and finally find a solution. Uh, I'm not saying to keep being in pain, Chris.

[01:28:09] I'm saying is that keep thinking, keep digging, keep asking and raising questions. 

[01:28:13] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:28:13] Eldar: Uh, so much so where you will become sensitive enough to be able to know that you've been in pain for a very long time- 

[01:28:21] ... 

[01:28:21] Eldar: With a lot of different things. And if that sh- is said to be true, you'll stop ignoring some of these pains, and you'll start becoming a little bit more curious as to how to solve these things and get rid of that pain.

[01:28:35] But only through conversation- Yeah ... with yourself, with the people around you, with us, if you want. So just keep digging. Totally. 

[01:28:43] Toliy: Yeah, I mean, I I actually think that, like, you know, may- maybe something sim- similar to what you're saying, but I actually think that, like, yeah, I do I do actually think it's a good thing for him to be in pain, as long as it's a conscious pain, 'cause I think a conscious pain is an indication of thinking.

[01:28:59] Eldar: Conscious pain is an indication of thinking. Yeah. That's a fucking quote. 

[01:29:04] Katherine: Conscious pain is what? 

[01:29:06] Eldar: Is an indication of thinking. Conscious pain is an indication of thinking. When you're conscious about your pain and you're starting to think, that's very good. All right, and we're gonna leave you on that note.

[01:29:17] All right, guys. Thank you.