222. Why praise promotes people pleasing

How much praise is enough for your child—and could overdoing it actually condition them for lifelong dependency on external validation instead of building real self-worth?

In this raw, no-holds-barred episode of the Dennis Rox podcast, hosts Eldar, Mike, Toliy, and guest Denis (a new dad) dig deep into one of the most overlooked traps in modern parenting: the autopilot “good job!” reflex. They challenge whether praise is genuine encouragement or just cheap, lazy communication that trains kids to people-please and chase approval from parents, coaches, and society. From first steps and crawling to participation trophies and the long-term damage of mixed signals, the crew explores healthier alternatives—especially the power of undivided attention, sharing the moment on the child’s level, and empowering kids rather than keeping them dependent. Personal stories of parental mixed signals, loose words, and the struggle to break generational patterns make this conversation hit hard for new parents and anyone still unpacking their own upbringing. They even reference the Anastasia books by Vladimir Megre as a deeper guide for communication that doesn’t sever the parent-child bond.

Key takeaways:

• Praise often stems from social autopilot or parental insecurity rather than intentional teaching—especially for natural developmental milestones.
• Over-reliance on positive reinforcement can create kids (and later adults) whose self-esteem hinges on external validation, leading to fragility when that praise disappears.
• The real need is genuine undivided attention and presence, not manufactured claps or “good job” moments that interrupt exploration.
• Parents may subconsciously resist fully empowering their kids because they want to stay needed forever.
• True growth and pride come from choice and internal values, not forced discipline or pressure alone—illustrated through personal stories and even a cautionary look at “successful” public figures.

Most insightful moment: Toliy cuts to the core when he says parents “don’t put a lot of value on like empowering their kids. They have this insecurity that they maybe are not aware of that they actually want their kids to rely on them and need them forever.” That single observation reframes the entire praise conversation and lands like a gut punch.

Will you keep defaulting to the easy clap… or risk the harder path of real presence that might set your child free? Hit play before the next “good job” slips out on autopilot—and then decide for yourself.

Subscribe, leave a review if this shifted how you think about raising kids, and share it with every new parent in your circle. The next generation is counting on better questions.

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Transcript

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[00:00:00] Dennis: On this week's episode 

[00:00:01] Eldar: How much praise do you give your child? How much is enough? How much is important to give? And how do you transition a child out of giving praise? Or should we give praise in the first place? 

[00:00:13] Mike: The reason the praise happens is because it's cheap communication. I think 

[00:00:19] Eldar: it's very lazy.

[00:00:19] Mike: Yeah, it's cheap communication. 

[00:00:22] Eldar: What would be 

[00:00:23] Mike: the 

[00:00:23] Eldar: alternative? 

[00:00:25] Toliy: Parents, they don't put a lot of value on like empowering their kids. They have this insecurity that they maybe are not aware of that they actually want their kids to rely on them and need them forever.

[00:00:43] Eldar: All right, guys, welcome to another Dennis Rocks podcast. And now today we have... We have Dennis that's spelled with two Ns, we have Dennis with one N. He's here. Unrelated. Unrelated, but yeah, he's here again, uh, as a guest. So, uh, welcome back, Dennis. Thank you, sir. Two weeks in a row since a three-year layoff, so it's, it's pretty serious.

[00:01:03] Denis: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. For sure. 

[00:01:06] Eldar: But today's topic is an interesting one because especially for new parents, um, parents that have young kids especially the ones that are maybe, um, parents of a first kid, not knowing how to properly maybe, um, go about certain things, raising kids, and all the different questions that, that rise.

[00:01:24] An interesting question came about, which Dennis actually brought to us, is how much praise is enough, right? For our kids. A lot of times when, uh, when you obviously have a new child... If Joe's listening, yo, Joe, shout out to you. You have two new, new kids, right? Um, I think this topic's probably very relevant to you.

[00:01:41] How much praise do you give your child? How much is enough? How much is important to give? And how do you transition a child out of giving praise? Or should we give praise in the first place, right? Uh, Dennis, why do you... Since you're a new parent, right? Why do you give praise in the first place? 'Cause that's, that's the first thing that came to my mind when, uh, when you started talking about that, uh, when your daughter starts to, you know, do her first whatever she's doing, right?

[00:02:04] Her first words, her first walking, her first crawling. Whatever it is that, uh, you and your wife start to praise her. Why do you praise her in the first place? 

[00:02:14] Denis: I mean, it's like positive reinforcement. You want them to teach, like, almost like with a puppy, you know? You teach them a skill, and you want them to know like, "Hey, this is good, this is bad."

[00:02:21] Eldar: Are you actually teaching them a skill, or is it something that, like, innate in them that, like, sooner or later, obviously she will crawl, obviously she will walk, and obviously she will talk. So, like, why do we give praise for things that are kind of like... Look, do you give praise for her breathing? 

[00:02:35] Denis: No. 

[00:02:36] Eldar: No, I just, it's a, it's an honest question.

[00:02:38] It's an 

[00:02:39] Denis: honest answer. You don't. 

[00:02:39] Eldar: You don't, right? So obviously she's gonna start talking one day. 

[00:02:43] But, and obviously that you're gonna give praise for the first words, for the first maybe sentence, or whatever it is, right? Uh, but why? 

[00:02:51] Denis: Yeah, it's a good question. We're in a rush to d- develop somebody, I guess.

[00:02:55] I don't know. What do you guys think? Why do we praise pe- uh, 

[00:03:00] Mike: praise anyone? Because it's socially accepted, like, uh, behavior. That I think- Oh, 

[00:03:03] Eldar: just because it's socially accepted why is it being done? 

[00:03:06] Mike: Oh, I don't think anybody questions that. I think it's just, like, now it's on autopilot- Yeah

[00:03:10] 'cause it's normal, like- Definitely ... it's normalized as what you should be doing. 

[00:03:12] Denis: But I'll only uh, counter that by saying I think a part of it is also, I think you're right, it is almost like you're on autopilot with a lot of this stuff, but it's also, like, a love for the, for the human, or it's, or the puppy, or the whatever, you know?

[00:03:30] Like, you want them to feel- 

[00:03:33] Eldar: No, is there- ... you know, the puppy's a little different, but Well, aren- isn't there other ways to express your love, uh, towards them? Not, not in the moments of, like, all right, cool, like, then she starts crawling. Like, "Okay, let me show her all my love." Like, don't you show her love as a dad throughout the day regardless?

[00:03:45] Denis: Of course, but, like, you know, it's kinda like a- 

[00:03:48] Eldar: You kiss her every time you come home? 

[00:03:49] Denis: Yeah. 

[00:03:50] Eldar: You hug her every time you come home. Isn't that the sh- displays of love without needing to... Like, you know, it's like a dog. You know, you come home and the dog wags its tail, and you kinda pet it and you show it's love.

[00:03:59] Like, you don't necessarily will give praise or, or any extra love if they do something that's organic or natural to them. Because 

[00:04:07] Denis: then- 

[00:04:07] Eldar: Well, 

[00:04:07] Denis: I mean, you do. You're like, "Hey, good boy," blah, blah, blah. You do do that, sure. '

[00:04:12] Cause we, you know- Yeah ... we're happy that... It's, it's complicated because I think to one degree you're right, it is, like, an autopilot thing, but on another thing, on another hand, it's like we genuinely also find joy in this being, let's say, being, you know- t- um, having these little mile- achievements or whatever, whatever it may be, how small they are.

[00:04:34] Eldar: Aren't you then setting yourself up for a very specific moment in time, like you said? Look, after a while, right, when you start, they start growing, you've almost conditioned them to, like, look for this praise, look for this like, "Oh, Mom and Dad is gonna give me this approval that I did something," right? So what you're creating is maybe an individual who might ruin their self-esteem or attach their self-esteem of approval from their parents, right?

[00:05:00] Like you just said. Hey, w- how am I affecting that i- for the future? Because they might grow out of it, right? They might look for it. And even now, you're 32 years old, and you said, for a while I'm, like, looking for my parents' approval. Like, where is my approval? Like, I need somebody to approve my- day-to-day fucking activities almost. 

[00:05:17] Denis: Why? Well, the verdict will be out on whether... Then I guess if, the way I see it to what you're saying is, is two parts. It's either it shouldn't be done at all, which I feel like that's what you're leaning towards- Well, 

[00:05:26] Eldar: no, I'm 

[00:05:26] Denis: not ... or- I, I'm just exploring ... my thing in the beginning was, like it sh- it can be, or maybe it should be done to a degree, but the transition from that easy mode, 'cause it's easy to do it when they're little.

[00:05:39] But that transition has to be gracefully done, meaning you can't just then stop 'cause you're like, "Ah, he's, like, 12 now, he doesn't need that." 

[00:05:47] And I feel like a lot of people do that, 'cause, "Ah, he's old enough. I, you're, you're, you're fine now." You know? It's almo- the relationship changes, because the kid also changes.

[00:05:54] The kid is no longer loo- like, he might get a little more aggressive. He wants to hang out with the friends. 

[00:05:59] And so you also, you don't get, as the parent, the enough n- back validation of, like, hey, like, uh, he doesn't, he doesn't care about me anymore, so whatever. But that nurturing maybe still needs to take place, just in a different format.

[00:06:13] For example, having still healthy conversations, healthy relationships, still hanging out with Dad, still hanging out with Mom. "Hey, let's go grab a beer. Hey, let's have lunch. Tell me about what's go-" You know what I mean? 

[00:06:23] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:06:24] Denis: If you just stop all that 'cause you're like, I might, I feel like my parents have said these exact words, and I've heard this from other people.

[00:06:29] It's like, "My job's done now," at a certain point- 

[00:06:32] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:06:32] Denis: as a parent. And you're almost tired, because you just go through, like, 18 years with this human. Yeah. Or 20, whatever. You know, and you're tired, and you're like, "All right," like, "My job's done." You've probably heard that line before. 

[00:06:43] Eldar: Mm-hmm. Sh- 

[00:06:43] Denis: and so I feel like there could be...

[00:06:44] It's either two ways. Either we can explore, you might be right. Maybe, maybe we shouldn't be doing it at all from the beginning- Well, yeah ... or that transition 

[00:06:50] Eldar: is needed. I, I wonder what kind of conditioning we're doing, positive or negative, uh, when it comes to the psychological development of a child. Like, for example, even, even when Joe was, was, uh, at Toliy's house with, with Benny, right?

[00:07:05] I've noticed certain condition responses that was already been installed in him. And Joe explained to me, "Hey, Eldar," like, "the reason why Benny's acting the way he's acting is because it was reinforced by Mom or Dad," right? That he will get a very specific response when he commits that kind of behavior, right?

[00:07:24] So what's happening is a lot of times what we do is that, By being overbearing, by trying to praise when we don't, might, might not really need to praise them, we've conditioned them for To reach or look for a very specific outcome and attach themselves. So when the moment comes when dad's not there or mom's not there or they're around strangers or grandparents or whatever, and that same, same praise doesn't come, what kind of confusion does the child feels?

[00:07:54] Toliy: Yeah, I feel like it's o- o- overall, I feel like it's bad because it, it, it turns you, I think, over time, into a- Dependent ... person. Yeah, they're, they're dependent on external validation- 

[00:08:05] Eldar: Correct ... 

[00:08:05] Toliy: to feel good about anything. 

[00:08:07] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:08:07] Toliy: And I feel like when it comes to, like, yeah, you want them to, like, I don't know, walk, to, like, do things- 

[00:08:12] Eldar: Yeah

[00:08:13] Toliy: those are all things that you want, you know? It's not like she's saying like- 

[00:08:16] Eldar: Mm-hmm ... "

[00:08:16] Toliy: Hey, Dennis, I have this goal." Yeah. "And now I wanna walk the next two months. Can you support me there?" so it's a goal that, like, like, I think it's, like, the parents, like, selfishly want for something to happen, but the kid is not, like, you know, raising their hand saying, "Hey, like, I'd like for this to happen."

[00:08:31] And I feel like kids especially, and, like anyone, all of us, we all listen very carefully in times where there's, like, a, a reward happening, right? You do this, you get that. You do th- Contingent ... everyone hears per- perks up. Yeah. Right? Yeah. You do a good job here- Mm-hmm ... you'll get this. You'll close X amount of deals, you'll get this bonus, right?

[00:08:53] That, that's just, like, a, a life thing where everyone's al- al- always like- Understands the pattern ... yeah, un- understands that, that, that form of communicating. But I think- Dynamic ... with kids oftentimes, like yeah, they, they wanna seek, uh, rewards, and I think that this is such a big problem in, in, in society that I, I mean, over the last, like few, few years especially, there's, there's been that debate over participation trophies in kids' sports, for example.

[00:09:20] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:20] Toliy: Where, like, the kids are so used to being praised and, like, good job this, good job little H- like, like, Hank this, right? Hank? That, like, they need to, uh, they need to give them trophies- Yeah, just so they don't cry ... for coming in last place. So they don't cry. So they don't cry. That's 

[00:09:34] Eldar: the last time you're gonna be naming a kid named 

[00:09:35] Toliy: Hank, though.

[00:09:35] Yeah. You 

[00:09:35] Eldar: know? We don't wanna, we don't wanna ruin their self-esteem- 

[00:09:37] Toliy: Exactly ... 

[00:09:38] Eldar: because they've created 

[00:09:39] Toliy: a level of expectation. Their self... Well, their, their self-esteem- It's shock ... is already r- Shock ... ruined because their self-esteem is reliant on external- Praise ... praise and success- Validation ... and validation.

[00:09:50] Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I feel like it's much better to probably n- you know, not give any for anything where it's outcome-based, where it's like where it's like if this result happens, to give praise they, they will always remember that. And especially as kids, like, their brain is like a sponge, so they're gonna remember that, "If I do this, I'll get this.

[00:10:11] I'll get this reward. I'll get that reward," or, "They'll give me a treat. They'll like," so the, the whole point, I think, is that when people do that with, like, dogs especially when they're training them, they want them to do the right thing and then to have that to be, like, a good association.

[00:10:27] But I think it's a little bit different 'cause you're not, like, training a- Hu- human in that kind of way, and I- Yeah, but though, but isn't the whole, like... It's an interesting topic because what you're saying is it's a very idealistic thing. It's like, "All right, well maybe," like you said, "better not to," right?

[00:10:43] Denis: But, like, the whole... I think this is, I mean, I don't know much about the psychology stuff, but I'm pretty sure there's some psychological terms about the whole reward system, right? The humans. There's some natural kind of thing about it. And so, like we, we operate a lot on rewards. So, like, if the whole world is set up in a rewards base, whether it's at work, at home, they're gonna, they're gonna experience it, right?

[00:11:06] They're gonna experience it in school, they're gonna experience it in sport. So, like, now the interesting question would be, okay, let's say we, we s- have this isolated bubble where the parents are perfectly in tune with that and don't give that praise, and they just kind of whatever, however Then the kid might grow up and be like, "Well, what the hell?"

[00:11:26] Still, where it's like, that's, that's what me and Asli talk a lot about, is like the paradox of trying to develop a human being is like it's not black and white at all. And it's like y- you see the parents who did it one way and it kinda looked right, the kid ends up fucked up. And then there was parents that did it another way, almost looked like they did it the wrong way, kid's perfectly fine.

[00:11:49] Or somebody grew- grows up in the hood, shoots up, has tremendous B word, discipline, and whatever, and achieves things and is good, and another person can't- 

[00:12:01] Toliy: Yeah ... 

[00:12:01] Denis: can't get off drugs. 

[00:12:02] Toliy: Yeah. Well, I feel like, yeah, I feel like, like for, for parents you're always gonna have that, that I think that, uh challenge out there that, like, if you can't raise your kids properly, the, the world will then raise them.

[00:12:15] Someone... If, like, your influence and, like, your ability to communicate and help them understand something is not good enough, societies will definitely be good enough, you know? So if, like, yeah, if you don't beat it, like, win that battle there, then, like, you will always, I think, lo- lose it to society, to people, because, like, they're gonna be very impressionable and they're gonna learn a way.

[00:12:42] So if they don't understand what's going on or, like, why this dynamic exists by the time that, I think, they're faced with that, then yeah, I think it's very hard to, uh- 

[00:12:50] Denis: Well, my question to you 

[00:12:51] Toliy: would be- ... to come back with that ... 

[00:12:52] Denis: you know, I'm a very practical kind of guy, you know? Yeah. I'm a simple, simple folks, you know?

[00:12:57] You'd have to break that down, right? What does that... 'Cause it l- to me, it sounds very idealistic. I like the idea in theory, but then there's reality, right? Where like he's proposing that, like, hey, like the, the end result is, hey, just don't do the praise at all, for example. I think- 

[00:13:12] Mike: But why? ... I think the reason the praise happens is because it's, um, it's cheap communication.

[00:13:19] The way I... Like, you know- I think 

[00:13:20] Denis: it's very lazy. 

[00:13:21] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:13:21] Mike: Yeah. It's cheap communication. 

[00:13:22] Denis: Yeah. 

[00:13:23] Mike: Yeah. Lazy, cheap, same thing. Yeah. So 

[00:13:24] Denis: what would be the, what would be 

[00:13:26] Mike: the 

[00:13:26] Denis: alternative? The 

[00:13:27] Mike: thing would be to actually to learn what re- what kind of communication you should have with the kid versus just, like, doing cheap, lazy shit.

[00:13:35] Denis: Okay. So look, you the, you got a- I 

[00:13:37] Mike: have the most history ... you've been raising a nephew. I have the most 

[00:13:39] Denis: history of childcare. You've been raising a nephew who's pretty much your 

[00:13:41] Mike: son, right? Nah. 

[00:13:42] Denis: So what maybe you... I'm trying, I'm looking for some, like, real- I haven't 

[00:13:45] Mike: been raising him, but- 

[00:13:46] Denis: No? 

[00:13:47] Mike: No. No. 

[00:13:47] Denis: Okay. Well, I mean, I gotta get filled in.

[00:13:49] No. But, like, tangible kind of like- Like what was that, what would that 

[00:13:52] Mike: look like? You gotta, you gotta read her the Anastasia books, son. 

[00:13:55] Denis: Nah, man. You see like- ... I, I want you guys to give me like, you know what I mean? 'Cause it's, I could, I could say a lot of shit but, but you know. 

[00:14:01] Mike: I'm just telling you what I see.

[00:14:02] Respond to them, you know? Uh, I can't tell you what you should be doing or you shouldn't be doing, but- 

[00:14:06] Denis: Yeah ... 

[00:14:06] Mike: it sounds like it should be the opposite of cheap communication, which is what you should be- Well, like- ... what you should be discussing with 

[00:14:11] Eldar: your child. No, but I think that Dennis's question is very valid.

[00:14:13] Okay? Yeah. If, if I don't do this- Yeah ... and it sounds like in theory correct- 

[00:14:17] Mike: Yeah ... 

[00:14:17] Eldar: what do I do? 

[00:14:19] Mike: Right. Or what would be the right way? Well, yeah, I feel like- I'm saying, yeah ... 

[00:14:20] Katherine: yeah, like you, like- 

[00:14:22] Eldar: But he, he's not comfortable in that space 

[00:14:23] Katherine: And, and also she is one year, year old, right? Yeah. So like what other form outside of, you know, she recognizes- Yeah, but again-

[00:14:29] facial expression ... that's also our assumption that 

[00:14:31] Mike: because she's one year old, she's gonna only understand like goo goo ga ga. Yeah. Pee pee ga ga. Well, I 

[00:14:36] Toliy: think- No, but it's also, no, no, but I, I think it might not even be what you need to do. I think it's a matter of what y- like- When you 

[00:14:43] Mike: need to do what ... 

[00:14:44] Toliy: y- yeah, when, when you need to do what, but I think it's ultimately a, a scenario of like what do you value is one thing, right?

[00:14:53] What do you value? And then two I feel like it might be a result of you feeling that like the, probably the abundance of good things that, that you already do isn't enough, and then I think this stuff gets born from that. Like for example, a if you're there for them, if you take care of them, if you provide them with, you know, good environments, like if you have a good attitude, for example, right?

[00:15:15] Like the, are you do parents come home and be like, "Oh, I'm fucking tired. You know, I'm just gonna, I just wanna watch sports," and 

[00:15:21] Denis: like that? Well I think, 

[00:15:22] Toliy: I 

[00:15:22] Denis: think- Like 

[00:15:22] Toliy: those, 

[00:15:23] Denis: those- ... it's less that, more of what he said. It's autopilot. So for, I'll give you the full example, right? Delilah's trying to walk.

[00:15:30] Asli's like, I'm on the computer working. Asli's like, "Baby, look." It's autopilot where it's like, all right, like, I gotta stop, I gotta, "Good job," you know? And I enjoy it too, but there is a programmed autopilot if I'm, was to dissect it as a third person looking in, of like, this is what I'm supposed to do.

[00:15:47] Eldar: Ah, you see? That's 

[00:15:48] Toliy: what I'm saying. You being pre- Delilah is being- You being pressured. Delilah in response- Well, well, yeah, but if he were, if he were to give genuine, for example, attention, right? Yeah. When, like when you say like, "Hey," like, I don't know, "Right now I'm working, I'm busy," this is what it is, right?

[00:16:01] Yeah. But if, yeah, if you're interrupted- Oh ... if you kind of do like, like a half and half thing then it becomes a thing where, like, you're not giving genuine attention, so you start to feel guilty. Mm. And that's why you need to clap. Okay, 

[00:16:12] Denis: okay. Time out. Okay. Time out. Okay. You're right. You're right about that, but let's- Yeah

[00:16:14] let's, you're right, if that's, I gave you that isolated example. I could give you the next one, which is I'm on the floor chilling with her. Okay. And then this happens, and I'm watching her, and I see her looking at me, and I give her that extra reassurance, and then she smiles and is happy. So let's say, let's remove the, the part of me working, but I'm there, I'm interacting I'm with her, I'm present.

[00:16:35] But I am doing it still on autopilot because I'm like, I'm not just gonna sit there and be like, "Hi, Delilah." You know what I mean? Like, I'm seeing that she also, like I see that every time we do give her the praise, she also derives some form of bliss out of it, where she's just happy. She's like, "Oh, shit," like these people are like, ah, I wanna...

[00:16:53] And then you can see what happens, human psychology, why do we do what we do, right? If we get positive reinforcement, we, you know, we we continue sometimes, right? So I see then she gets up and tries again, falls and try, but now she knows, like, it's coming. Now, again, maybe it's not right or whatever it is, but the positive reinforcement from us- She's learning how to people 

[00:17:12] Eldar: please.

[00:17:13] Denis: Maybe. Yeah, you know, yeah. 

[00:17:13] Toliy: No, but I think that what the, well, like I think what they want is they want- Oh, yeah, I think that's exactly what's 

[00:17:17] Denis: happening. 

[00:17:18] Toliy: Well, yeah, but I feel like what they innately want is probably genuine attention. But- 

[00:17:22] I'll tell you one thing. If, like, if you're watching someone or, like, you're doing something, but then, I don't know, you're on your phone, you're listening to something, you're thinking about some- something else, all of those things lead to, like, an autopilot, I think, more a type of moment where you get guilted into doing these kinds of things automatically because, like- if you're not really into it, into that moment, I could see how like, like if you're thinking about other things, you're listening to a show, a podcast, you're on your phone looking at news- Yeah

[00:17:54] whatever it is, right? Yeah. I could see how that's not a genuine moment where you're giving someone undivided, like, attention. But Tasha, 

[00:18:00] Denis: I could split that in half. Right? Number one, w- I'll take... I'll play devil's advocate. We could put me in that pool, where like a lot of times I'm constantly working, I'm in and out, and I'm like, "Ah," whatever.

[00:18:10] Asali, for example, undivided. You know what I mean? She 24/7, right? And you could see genuinely just in it. So she would... I would definitely say she does not have that. I do have that, what you're saying. I'm on the phone, I'm doing mad shit. So you could argue that. But what about the person, right?

[00:18:30] What if we isolate those variables, or just focus on the, on the variable of like- Yeah ... giving that reinforcement, good or bad. Yeah, but the thing- Forget about why ... 

[00:18:39] Mike: again, I think like, uh- You know? ... this, the, what's the substance? That's my question. If you... I, I think you're right on Stasia. So I have to reference, a lot of times parents get in the way of the child You know, she said this.

[00:18:54] And I think a lot of times they try to give them their own things that they think they know or think they understand about life, but instead it's just giving them things that actually don't have any substance or any... Yeah, like this praise- Well, it's 

[00:19:06] Eldar: interference. Yeah ... interference- It's 

[00:19:07] Mike: interference, yeah

[00:19:08] and and praise for the wrong stuff and not enough information because we think they're small, they don't understand. And because of what we think or we, our limited knowledge of what kids can interpret or understand. So the kids learn what they're taught. They absorb it based on what you give them.

[00:19:24] If you give them something much more intelligent, they'll be able to pick that up versus be- But most people don't believe that or don't think that. They j- that's why they g- do the childish, uh, things. 

[00:19:37] Eldar: Yeah. And, uh, and that's a very good point, and I, what I wanted to insert into this whole thing is that, uh, we're talking about undivided attention.

[00:19:44] And when kids want un- obviously they want attention, right? Mm-hmm. From Mom and Dad, right? But how does that attention a lot of times looks like? It looks like what the parents is interpreting- Interpreting, yes ... quote unquote, "what kid needs or wants in that moment." Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:20:01] So there's a, there's a level of, a barrier of a communication gap- yes

[00:20:05] that is happening where the kid might want something, but you're giving another or, like, you're almost, like, ramping them up. Yo, I want you to do this, so, like, let's, you know, dance or whatever." Whatever the fuck it is, you know? And then the kid responds. So it's, it becomes almost like a, some kind of abrupted communication, uh, thing where we don't really understand each other- 

[00:20:23] Toliy: Mm-hmm

[00:20:23] Eldar: but we'll kinda, like, do these weird things to kind of manufacture joy. 

[00:20:28] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:28] Eldar: Right? I think that as a kid, I'm not, I don't remember being a kid, but I, I would think that... Being as an adult, how about this? I wanna be understood. 

[00:20:37] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:37] Eldar: I think everybody in this room wants to be understood, right?

[00:20:40] Genuinely speaking, when we c- have conversations, we wanna be understood. I think to a degree kids have that baked in in them that they also wanna be understood, right? They also wanna be heard. They also wanna be seen, right? Mm-hmm. However, they don't know how to communicate that yet, right? 

[00:20:56] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:20:56] Eldar: They're not verbal So a lot of times I think that they're being led on by their parents as to what should be done or how it's, versus- Yeah

[00:21:05] maybe not talking at all, because that's not a good form of communication just yet, right? Uh, when they can't speak talk back or ask questions and stuff like that. But more so kind of just pay attention as to like what's actually- Yeah ... going on, right? Mm-hmm. And like really sit with the moment of like, "All right, so what do we actually want?"

[00:21:23] Right? I think that intuitive mothers probably have that. 

[00:21:29] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:21:29] Eldar: Where they have the ability to tune into their cries, whatever it is, right? Where like Joe's son, he came over, right? I didn't understand a fucking word he was saying, you know? It's a baby talk. Mm-hmm. But Joe understood what he was saying, because Joe's already tuned in, and I'm sure that Dennis is gonna tune in like that too, because after a while you understand like what the gibberish that they're saying.

[00:21:48] But I think that this quote unquote gibberish happens way before that through different forms of communication, right? It could be from pulling your finger or whatever it is, and I think that maybe we as parents, um, don't do a very good job at trying to understand that form of communication from v- the very jump.

[00:22:07] And therefore we kind of just like steamroll them into like, "Hey, let's dance." Yeah. Or, "Here's a toy." You know what I mean? To, in order to solicit what? A cheap, a smile. 

[00:22:17] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:18] Yeah. 

[00:22:19] Eldar: Because the truth of the matter is when he's sitting there working, for example, or anybody, or any parent, right? Yes, there might be a moment that you might be missing or whatever and, but you might be zoned in working.

[00:22:29] But then you have to almost, like you said, pressure, I feel pressure to be able to do what's socially acceptable. Mm-hmm. Turn around, ack- acknowledge my wife and say, "Oh, yeah. Hey." You know, like do a very manufactured, not genuine response. 

[00:22:42] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. It's 

[00:22:43] Eldar: not authentic. And what is that? It's not authentic.

[00:22:45] Yes. Yes. This is what I'm saying. Versus finish your work and then when you have the 10, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, an hour for your kid, actually zoom in- 

[00:22:55] Mike: Pay attention ... 

[00:22:55] Eldar: and lay down with them and pay very close attention as what's going on. But don't make it on your terms where it's like the best thing you're looking for is for her to dance.

[00:23:04] You know, the easy shit. Yeah. Easy ones. You know what I mean? Clap or fucking smile. 

[00:23:09] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:23:10] Eldar: We, we, we put them in a box. But we, we force that. We put them in a box. 

[00:23:12] Mike: Because we think that their limits are whatever we put upon them. But- 

[00:23:16] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:23:17] Mike: so, and we limit them in that way too. 

[00:23:18] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, it's, and a lot of times we will condition them into communicating the way we want them to communicate, and when we've created- You know, a brat, a spoiled person, right?

[00:23:32] Or a wimp- Mm-hmm ... or whoever it is. It's all our doing. We've taught them those responses. 

[00:23:37] You know what I mean? On how to communicate with us, because that's the only form of communication we've, uh, we've understood ourselves. Yeah. 

[00:23:44] Toliy: And kids are extremely smart. Extremely smart. And they, and, and they, and they pick up on all of the reactions.

[00:23:50] Yeah. They pick up on everything- 

[00:23:51] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:23:52] Toliy: like this, so 

[00:23:52] Eldar: like- You're under the impression that you're communicating with them. No. They're communicating with you. 

[00:23:56] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:23:56] Eldar: And you don't know what the hell you... I think they're manipulating us- Yes ... a lot more than we're trying to manipulate them. 100%. But then that battle actually, you know, we lose that battle- Yeah

[00:24:05] a lot of the times, and then, you know, we, we get a, a very weird dynamic. 

[00:24:10] Toliy: Yeah, I, yeah, uh like what I was saying too, like- I feel like also a lot of parents just feel that, like, a genuine good interaction is just not enough. You know, I feel like they feel like they're not enough, therefore they need to do something, like- 

[00:24:23] Eldar: Extra

[00:24:23] Toliy: extra or more when 

[00:24:25] Eldar: they- No, I, I don't think a lot of people- That may- I think a lot of people in general don't think that they're enough as humans. 

[00:24:29] Toliy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, where, like they may not see how valuable of, like, hey, like, when they're working, they're busy. They're working, they're not gonna, like, pay attention.

[00:24:37] Yeah. And then when they're actually zoned in, to n- not be, like, half in, half out, to actually be, like, in, provide the attention and, like, focus on that- 

[00:24:46] Eldar: Undivided attention ... 

[00:24:47] Toliy: yeah on, on that moment. And I think that, like, I at least don't think, like, any very small kid wants anything other than the undivided attention of- Yeah

[00:24:56] their parent. Yeah. Like, that, that's the number one priority for them. 

[00:24:59] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:25:00] Toliy: Yeah, I- Like, what, what else do they want? They want- 

[00:25:02] Eldar: 100% ... 

[00:25:03] Toliy: attention. They want- Yeah ... may- may- maybe to, like to play with them, right? Like, toys. 

[00:25:07] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:07] Toliy: You know? 

[00:25:08] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:25:08] Toliy: But, like, they're not, like, wanting to go buy shit or, like, right?

[00:25:11] Like, go anywhere. Yeah, yeah. Like, they just wanna hang, hang out. For now. Yes. Yeah. But, like, a very tiny kid, like, they just wanna hang out. 

[00:25:18] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:25:19] Toliy: And that's it. I think 

[00:25:20] Eldar: more than- That's all they're asking for ... well, I think more than anything they probably just wanna explore. 

[00:25:24] Toliy: Yeah. They, they, 

[00:25:25] Eldar: they wanna explore.

[00:25:26] Right? Because what are they doing, right? Like, uh, in, in your case, right, your daughter is exploring the crawling right now, right? So she's probably crawling all around the house, touching everything, right? Like, this is just, you probably just following her around, exploring with her and make sure she doesn't bang her head against something, is more than, more than enough.

[00:25:42] Toliy: Yeah, like that, that's all she wants to do. Right? That's 

[00:25:45] Eldar: it. Like, they're, like, maybe she'll, she'll ask a question, you know? Like, "Oh what, what?" You know? And then you have to explain. Yeah. And that's, like, your job. 

[00:25:52] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:25:52] Eldar: And I think that's, that's it. 

[00:25:53] Toliy: That, that's it. 

[00:25:54] Eldar: That's it. 

[00:25:55] Toliy: That's it, and that's plenty.

[00:25:56] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:25:57] Toliy: But I feel like, yeah, most parents just don't feel like that's enough, and they need to do all these extra- 

[00:26:01] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:26:01] Toliy: things. 

[00:26:02] Eldar: I think that- You know? ... uh, if you have the ability to actually share the moment, if it... If you... Do, uh, everybody understand what I mean by sharing the moment in the moment? Like, right now we're sharing a moment, right?

[00:26:13] Yeah. Like, we're all present here except Catherine on the phone. We're listening to one another, and we can interact, go back and forth. We're sharing a moment. Yeah. I think the same thing goes when you share a moment with a child. You just go onto their level, right? Not saying that it's a bad level or low level, but you go into their level and try to share that moment with them, what they're experiencing.

[00:26:32] Toliy: But I also think that in, in, in most scenarios I think parents, like, they're operating probably not un, un- unknowingly that they, from, like, what they want. 

[00:26:43] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:26:43] Toliy: to happen. 

[00:26:44] Eldar: I think it's a lot of times- Yeah ... that's what exactly what they're dealing 

[00:26:46] Toliy: with. Yeah, they're trying to, like, lay out- They're ham- ... a particular path

[00:26:48] Eldar: they're ham-hogging their kids. 

[00:26:50] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:26:51] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:26:52] Toliy: They're- And then their kids, like, w- with this kind of stuff, slowly over time- Yeah ... what do kids wanna do? The opposite of what the parents wanna do, 

[00:26:58] Eldar: right? Yeah. 

[00:26:59] Toliy: That like, that becomes, like, a natural- 

[00:27:01] Eldar: 100% ... 

[00:27:02] Toliy: dynamic, 

[00:27:03] Eldar: right? Yeah, because, because- If, if 

[00:27:04] Toliy: you're forced into routinely doing homework, for example- 

[00:27:07] Eldar: Yeah

[00:27:08] Toliy: You fucking hate homework, for example. You fucking, 

[00:27:09] Eldar: yeah. Right? Or like, you know, like- Yeah, because you actually yearn for actual interaction. 

[00:27:12] Toliy: Yes. 

[00:27:12] Eldar: And that's why a lot of times the ties, like you said, are then severed at 18, 19, when the parent's like, "Yo, I had enough." 

[00:27:19] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:27:20] Eldar: Well, the reason why you had a fucking enough, because you fucking did stupid shit, right?

[00:27:25] You didn't bond with the kid. I think that a child-parent relationship should be from the date of the birth and then from the date of dying, very close. 

[00:27:34] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:27:35] Eldar: There should not be any kind of disconnect in between where it's like, "All right, now I moved out and it's fucking done with." Yeah. No, I think the journey should continue forever together if done right, and I think it should be a fun, cool journey.

[00:27:49] And I think that any parent that's maybe listening right now, I think that's what maybe originally they want, but obviously it becomes a burden because they've miscommunicated, and their kid's like, "Yo, my, my mom and dad are not cool. You're embarrassing me." 

[00:28:04] Toliy: Yeah, that and I think that they- Get away from them

[00:28:06] there, there's a clear thing that happens where the parents are more attached to, like, what they want from the kids or the outcomes that they want- Yes ... versus, like what the kids actually want. That's right. You don't hear them out. That's right. They don't listen to them. They don't, like- Yeah ... ask them.

[00:28:17] And, and- They don't let them 

[00:28:20] Eldar: make their own 

[00:28:20] Toliy: choices ... and 

[00:28:21] Eldar: that is being passed on because the parents themselves didn't get the proper communication as well, because they were under the same conditioned- 

[00:28:29] Toliy: Yeah ... 

[00:28:31] Eldar: Communication style. 

[00:28:32] Toliy: Yeah, I feel like it's very hard to know, like, what the actual right moves are to- 

[00:28:37] Eldar: Yeah

[00:28:37] Toliy: to grow, like, a, like, a proper per- person. 

[00:28:39] Eldar: I think, I think that's why I think, Mike, it's good that you actually mentioned Anastasia, because if you w- if anybody who's listening, you wanna take this shit seriously. And obviously we don't pr- we don't we skim the surface here on this podcast, at least with some of the topics.

[00:28:52] But if you wanna learn deeper on how to raise kids, I think that Anastasia books does a really good job explaining why and what to do. So specifically, I don't remember which ones, Mike, maybe your memory's better, but she goes very deep into the communication styles and why and what, uh, needs to be done in order to not sever this relationship or this communication style.

[00:29:15] And, uh, not burden yourself th- through raising the kids, you know? So if you want, it's called, the book is called Anastasia by Vladimir Megre, M-E-G-R-E. Enjoy. I think it's a very important topic. 

[00:29:31] Uh, I think we've touched it before. Mike your example with your dad- 

[00:29:37] Toliy: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:29:37] Eldar: who also tried to communicate with you- 

[00:29:39] Toliy: Yeah

[00:29:39] Eldar: uh, in so many different ways. 

[00:29:41] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:41] Eldar: Right? And then, you know, you as a grown adult now, who's trying to reason through all the things that are, let's just say, are holding you back and blocking you from self-actualization and from experiencing the world in its fullest, tell us about his style and how you, you know, um, suffer from it.

[00:30:01] Mike: Yeah. Well, one big thing that, uh, that he did al- always, uh, when I would, like, uh, do something wrong or make a mistake, first thing he would yell at me. You know, like punish me or whatever, tell me like, "Hey, this is bad. You can't do this," blah, blah, blah. Maybe punish me, maybe give me a slap, you know? Mm-hmm. And then he would praise me right after, say, "Hey, it's okay, but you're a good son.

[00:30:26] I love you very much. Like, it's okay." You know? 

[00:30:28] Denis: Yeah. So it's like a whirlwind of 

[00:30:30] Mike: confusion. So that, that created this thing where I never lo- learned from my mistakes- 

[00:30:36] And I would make the same mistake over and over because I really didn't know, like, oh, is this- Mixed signals ... bad or good? I was just getting mixed signals.

[00:30:42] Mm. And this happened, you know, was happening for a very long time where I was doing, you know, stepping into the same puddle. 

[00:30:48] Denis: I got an interesting variation of that, but that's very interesting. 

[00:30:51] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:30:51] Denis: Mine's a little different, but also interesting how- 

[00:30:54] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:30:55] Uh, he remembers it till the, till today.

[00:30:57] Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:30:58] Denis: So he'll just, like, yell at you and then immediately pat you on the back. 

[00:31:02] Mike: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:31:03] Denis: Wow. 

[00:31:03] Mike: He's done it before in front of, like, 

[00:31:04] Katherine: uh- In front of me ... 

[00:31:05] Mike: our, our, like, 

[00:31:06] Eldar: uh- I, I remember this a while... This was a while 

[00:31:07] Denis: ago. This was- So it's almost like his in- initial reaction of how he really feels and then it's, like, almost like a remembrance of, like, all right, all right, I gotta be on autopilot, like, nice to my son.

[00:31:16] No, but it's 

[00:31:16] Mike: also, I think that be- that behavior probably comes from guilt and it's maybe- 

[00:31:20] Denis: That's what I'm saying, yeah ... 

[00:31:22] Katherine: like trying to not- He was trying to pad your fall maybe. 

[00:31:24] Mike: What? Not- Hmm? 

[00:31:24] Katherine: Like pad his fall. Do you think he was trying to pad Mike's fall? He didn't want- Yeah, probably ... Mike to go 

[00:31:28] Mike: through 

[00:31:28] Katherine: the 

[00:31:28] Mike: pain.

[00:31:28] Katherine: Yeah, he 

[00:31:28] Mike: didn't want me to suffer, but he also- 

[00:31:30] Katherine: Yeah, 

[00:31:30] Mike: doesn't want you to suffer ... didn't want me to learn in a way. Yeah. Not knowing that they're combined together. My 

[00:31:33] Denis: parents did something else also interesting. That tri- I didn't mean to cut you off there. I think we should come back to 

[00:31:36] Mike: that. It's okay.

[00:31:36] Don't do it again. 

[00:31:38] Denis: But that makes me think about how, like- Uh, I never got in trouble for anything. Mm. Hmm. So, like, I would get- Really? Like, I would get Fs, and then I would change the, the grades. 

[00:31:51] And then, or the teacher would call, I would hide the stuff. But even if I, I ever did, they were so busy working that I always just got away with it.

[00:31:59] Like, they would take... Give you an e- example. We used to have the Xbox 360s. They would take it away if I- Mm ... like, whatever, I got a bad grade, bad report card. Mm-hmm. They'd take it away, scream. Like, " don't you even think about playing NBA 2K ever again," blah, blah, blah. "It's all gone," blah, blah, blah.

[00:32:18] And then it's, and the statements are like, "This is for the rest of the year." 

[00:32:23] Katherine: Wow. 

[00:32:23] Denis: Two weeks later, I get it back. Yeah. All I gotta do is kind of be like, "Ma," like- 

[00:32:27] Toliy: Yeah, 

[00:32:27] Denis: of 

[00:32:27] Toliy: course ... 

[00:32:28] Denis: just maybe two weeks max. Yeah. Sometimes a couple days. 

[00:32:30] Toliy: Mm. 

[00:32:31] Denis: And so I always had this speaking of, like, psychological kind of reassurances or, or whatever play- plays there.

[00:32:38] Eldar: That wouldn't fly with me, right? 

[00:32:41] Denis: Yeah. I 

[00:32:43] Eldar: used to- If you're, if you're, if 

[00:32:43] Katherine: you're Penny- 

[00:32:44] Eldar: You do a three-year 

[00:32:44] Mike: stunt, you know, hey ... 

[00:32:45] Denis: stay, yeah, in Tibet. She gets away, she gets away 

[00:32:47] Katherine: with anything. Three years in Tibet. 

[00:32:48] Denis: And so I got this. I constantly never got in trouble. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I had the same thing.

[00:32:53] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:32:53] Denis: And then I grew up, and what happened? I started tiptoeing with shit. Like, all right, well, let me do, like, you know, all the dumb shit I did. See how far you can push the envelope. 

[00:33:01] Mike: A and C. Yeah. That's the 

[00:33:02] Denis: natural response. Yeah. A and C. Okay. Mike had the 

[00:33:03] Mike: same stuff. 

[00:33:04] Denis: And so you start, in real life, you're like, wait a minute.

[00:33:07] The affirmation I'm getting is that, like, I could do wrong, but I'm never quite getting in trouble for it. Like, I get, like, a, I get, like, a slap on the neck. And naturally 

[00:33:14] Mike: we wanna push the envelope. 

[00:33:15] Denis: And then you push the envelope- Yeah ... and then you start doing shit and reckless shit. And like, I was reckless in a lot of ways- Yeah, yeah, yeah

[00:33:20] especially early in my, you know, late teens, early 20s. You, you 

[00:33:23] Mike: was banging back then. 

[00:33:24] Denis: Wild shit, yeah. And then, and then I, and then it continued to, to... I always just kinda got, just got by, by the skin of my teeth. Mm-hmm. Nothing, and it, I just see it in my life over and over and over again happen, where it's like I never quite get in trouble, and maybe this one hurts so much, right? This shit. 'Cause, like, you fought, you, you try- you really punished me, you know. Sent me off to the fucking- To the cold ... Siberian camp, you know? 

[00:33:50] Katherine: Wait, what 

[00:33:51] Denis: did he 

[00:33:51] Katherine: say? It's cold out there? It's cold 

[00:33:53] Denis: out there. That's crazy. It's cold out... It's cold 

[00:33:54] Katherine: out- 

[00:33:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:33:54] Denis: But everything, I just kinda get by, you know?

[00:33:56] And so that's interesting that, but that was from them. 

[00:33:59] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:33:59] Denis: Always just, like- Yeah ... they'd get real angry- But what- ... but then they don't, they'd be so busy they'd forget about the punishment. 

[00:34:04] Eldar: You see? Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:34:05] Denis: You know? 

[00:34:05] Eldar: And that's a- 

[00:34:06] Denis: Nobody held me 

[00:34:06] Eldar: up ... that's a very bad, uh- You know? Very bad ... what's it? Very bad, uh, break in communication.

[00:34:11] Denis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I studied, I, like you said- You studied it ... kids are smarter than you think. 

[00:34:14] Eldar: Correct. 

[00:34:15] Denis: I figured out their game. 

[00:34:16] Eldar: Yes. 

[00:34:17] Denis: I'm like, all right, like I just gotta- Yeah ... manipulate this in this way- Yeah ... and I'll be all right. 

[00:34:20] Eldar: That's 

[00:34:20] Denis: it. And that shit is wild, too. Mm-hmm. You're talking about I just felt it, right?

[00:34:24] Where it's like your dad is yelling at you, and then the next, like I never got the pat on the back. I could just get the yelling, but then I just knew that the yelling would subside and they'd forget and I'd be good again. 

[00:34:34] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:34:34] Denis: But your shit was like, you saying 

[00:34:36] Mike: you needed- No, but I also had your thing too

[00:34:37] Denis: hot and cold type shit. That's wild, you know? 

[00:34:39] Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's like also that behavior, you, like when you're guilty you also wanna tell yourself that you did a good job- 

[00:34:47] Too. 

[00:34:47] Denis: Right. Right. So it's like, you know- And I, and you've mentioned that a lot, right? 

[00:34:49] Mike: It's a dirty, it's a dirty- 

[00:34:51] Denis: That's your favorite topic.

[00:34:52] You, you, you and T ride on that a lot. Right. Of like, uh, you know, over the years, uh, many years you always talk about like well, you guys all talk about kind of the, um, he talks a lot about it like you gotta have people around to, to critique you and stuff like that, otherwise if you're by yourself you don't really- 

[00:35:09] Learn. Yeah. And so you were, you're adamant about that now for many years, even from before when I was here, because I guess you felt that you realized that that shit was wrong. 

[00:35:18] Mike: I realized that a lot of things like programs running were- 

[00:35:21] Denis: Yeah ... 

[00:35:21] Mike: you know, not proper. I had a lot of viruses in my shit. 

[00:35:24] Denis: Yeah.

[00:35:24] Eldar: Yeah, 

[00:35:24] Mike: when I did and now- 

[00:35:25] Denis: You always thought it was okay 'cause yeah, they said it, yeah. Uh, 

[00:35:27] Eldar: so much so I remember that you were building your business, you succeeded in some levels of building your business- Mm. Aww ... but you were throwing fits- 

[00:35:36] During all that time like a little child. 

[00:35:38] Mike: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:39] Eldar: You know what I mean? Yeah. And I was ra- I was trying to raise that awareness, you know? 

[00:35:42] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:35:42] Eldar: But it was falling on deaf, deaf ears because there was a very specific propaganda machine that was running- 

[00:35:48] Mike: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:35:48] Eldar: that my voice was not heard at all. 

[00:35:50] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:35:50] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? Where it's like, you know, he was throwing a fit, "Oh, but I, I worked so hard.

[00:35:55] I want a Lamborghini," you know, and all this other stuff. And on the one hand his dad is like, "Yeah, like shit's fucked up. Like yo, like Mike's always running away, hiding, lying, cheating and shit." On the other it's like, "I think we can do the Lamborghini. I think we can swing it." 

[00:36:08] Denis: That's, that's wild. 

[00:36:08] Eldar: That's wild, bro.

[00:36:09] And 

[00:36:09] Denis: the result was homeboy 

[00:36:10] Eldar: was- Yeah ... 

[00:36:11] Denis: was messed up. 

[00:36:11] Eldar: Yes. You know? 

[00:36:12] Denis: Doing reckless decisions and shit, you know? 

[00:36:13] Eldar: Correct. Correct. 

[00:36:14] Denis: Got the La- Lambo for three months,

[00:36:20] gave it back. Got the flat- He, he borrowed it ... for three months, gave it back. It's fine, man. He 

[00:36:20] Eldar: was fine. Yeah. No, but- Yeah ... but that's the thing. Yeah. Where it was, it was so many mixed messages and mixed signals- It's wild. I see it, yeah ... where it's like, all right, well, we're trying to change stuff, trying to do stuff, but there was a bigger machine- Yeah, yeah

[00:36:32] much stronger- Mm-hmm ... that was in place that you could not jump over. Yeah. 

[00:36:35] Toliy: Yeah, then what what happens if you give improper parent- parenting, then your kid, again, they'll continue to get older, and then they have to, they try to go on the quest of like undoing or relearning or like trying to understand what, like what's actually true and what's not, not true.

[00:36:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:36:53] Toliy: And that process is like super- painful and difficult- 

[00:36:57] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:36:58] Toliy: for, like, the kid to navigate. And I think mo- most people just, they just become a product of, yeah, like how they grew up and who they are, and they never change. They- Yeah ... like they will- 

[00:37:07] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:37:07] Toliy: and then they have kids, and then they will pass that same type of stuff down- Not, and it just continues

[00:37:12] and it, it just, it continues over and over again. I think in very- That's a, it's 

[00:37:14] Eldar: called perpetual hell, like you said. 

[00:37:15] Toliy: Yeah, yeah. Like, one, one, one thing I r- I remember, and I I definitely grew up this kind of way for, for myself, my parents their words were always extremely, like, loose, and it meant like almost nothing.

[00:37:28] So there you go. So, like, someone could say, like, "Oh, they're gonna be home at this time," or, "We're gonna do this today," or, like, this or that, or w- we're gonna work on this, and then that was always bent and it was never- Wow ... like, like a thing. Yeah. And for me, yeah, when I grew up and, like, you know, for for most of my life, like, words kinda like mean nothing.

[00:37:46] And like- Yeah ... I never, like, un- understood the meaning of, like, yeah, holding your word or, like um- 

[00:37:53] Eldar: Keeping your word, yeah ... 

[00:37:54] Toliy: keeping your word or, like, like, what you actually say, like, ac- Means something ... yeah, means something. Yeah. And to me, I always grew up where, like, that kinda meant nothing 'cause everything is just always flexible and it's just, like- It's 

[00:38:04] Eldar: whatever

[00:38:04] it happens, it happens- Loose lips sink ships ... 

[00:38:07] Toliy: and, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:38:07] Denis: Yeah. 

[00:38:08] Toliy: So, so, like- 

[00:38:10] Eldar: Yeah. He gave, he gave an awkward smile. 

[00:38:11] Katherine: Wait. You're laughing, but he's kinda 

[00:38:14] Denis: like- No, I'm just thinking about something else. Oh, yeah. He's always- I'm thinking about something else where it's like, yeah, like you're right with all that.

[00:38:18] Yeah, for sure. It's interesting. When you would do the loans and shit, he would make me, he would hold me accountas, like 20- I remember 

[00:38:27] Katherine: Oh, I remember ... 

[00:38:29] Denis: He charged a late fee. Late fee, yeah. I was late one time by three minutes. 

[00:38:32] Mike: Yeah, I know. 

[00:38:33] Denis: I, the deadline was 4:00 PM, I showed up at 4:03. 

[00:38:35] Mike: I remember I 

[00:38:37] Denis: offered y'all- My 

[00:38:38] Mike: buddy charged me $150

[00:38:38] I remember I, I offered you a thing where I 

[00:38:39] Denis: would pay- You understand what $150 back 

[00:38:41] Katherine: then was? It's still even now, it's a 

[00:38:43] Denis: lot of- $150 was- ... it's still a lot of money ... yeah, even now. Yeah, but $150 for an Uber driver, that was like two days worth of work for me, you know? Like grinding. Wow. And I remember he'd be like, "No, sorry, like you were late."

[00:38:53] I'm like, "It's two, it's three minutes. Like it's 4:03, you know?" Yeah. But you see I always got away with like, I, you always wanted to push the envelope. I'm 

[00:39:01] a 

[00:39:01] Mike: credit 

[00:39:01] Toliy: card late fee, you 

[00:39:02] Denis: call the 

[00:39:02] Toliy: credit card 

[00:39:04] Denis: up, yo. 

[00:39:06] Eldar: You didn't get away with me. Can I get a courtesy waiver? You know? You didn't get away with me.

[00:39:07] Denis: Yeah, yeah. He wanted 

[00:39:08] Eldar: to get the waiver. Because I structured these things because I'm I've already was I've known this. I've known the problems. I've known the loose lips, right? That used to say and promise the world all the time. Yeah. But never actually, um- 

[00:39:21] Denis: Yeah, meant nothing. 

[00:39:22] Eldar: Yeah ... meant nothing.

[00:39:22] Denis: Yeah. 

[00:39:23] Eldar: You know? So and obviously he he knows now, he mentioned this before, that he even grew resentment- 

[00:39:28] Denis: Yeah ... 

[00:39:28] Eldar: towards me, where it's like, look, I'm over here the quote unquote the good guy, who's the savior, who's lending you the money, right? But then I quickly become the bad guy. 

[00:39:36] Denis: Right, right. My whole thing was like, you, just don't give the money at all.

[00:39:40] Yeah. Which I still, I, that, that's the dangerous part about lending money. But I guess you like it 'cause it exposes these dynamics. 

[00:39:46] Eldar: Yes. I think it- It forces people to- No, I think, I think it forces people to have a real conversation. 

[00:39:50] Denis: Yeah. 

[00:39:50] Eldar: Or, or see themselves as- 

[00:39:51] Denis: Tough conversations though. 

[00:39:52] Eldar: Yeah. They are.

[00:39:53] 'Cause 

[00:39:53] Denis: money, money is a very- 

[00:39:55] Eldar: For some people- ... it's a tricky thing, you know? ... ab- absolutely. 

[00:39:57] Denis: It 

[00:39:57] Eldar: can- Absolutely. I think that money is a very good, um, hook- 

[00:40:02] For a lot of people- Yeah ... in order to have honest conversations. That's all You know, if you leverage it properly, I think then you can have these types of conversations.

[00:40:11] Whether maybe you weren't properly taught or understood it when, uh, when you were growing up and your parents didn't teach you it, yeah. So what, to go back to that thing- Yes ... 'cause that's fascinating. Like, I kinda see it like, I see you through it, you know? Like, but like what did, so what did you do about it?

[00:40:25] Denis: Have you done anything about it recently? No, I just kinda- Are you still 

[00:40:27] Mike: suffering? ... still doing it just for fun. 

[00:40:30] Denis: No, I'm saying like, I, look, 'cause listen- 

[00:40:31] Mike: Yeah ... 

[00:40:31] Denis: it's not easy to- 

[00:40:32] Mike: No, I think- 

[00:40:32] Denis: I'm 

[00:40:33] Mike: still suffering my shit ... I think, um, I hope, I think, and maybe there's gonna be some testimony, but I feel like I disconnected from that- 

[00:40:39] Denis: Really?

[00:40:40] Mike: Completely. I don't feel like I need like disconnected from my, being like needing my dad to tell me what's okay, what's not okay, having that kinda needing, uh, approval from him. I became, you know, like, I became myself. So I think through self-development, through, you know, talking about these things yeah, I'm like my own person.

[00:41:01] I have my own belief system. I have my own things. I, I mean, I'm sure I still have those things that he imprinted in me that I'm not aware of. Small things, big things maybe, I don't know. But I'm not in that place anymore. Like, I don't seek his validation because a, a big part, remember, I wanted to do like, you know, retire my parents.

[00:41:17] Again, that's also validation, wanting for them to like give me that approval. Do you resent him? That they see you 

[00:41:21] Denis: as a hero. 

[00:41:22] Mike: See, yeah. My, uh, do I what? 

[00:41:23] Denis: Do you resent him for this? 

[00:41:25] Mike: For what? 

[00:41:26] Denis: Like for f- now realizing- No, bro ... the dynamic. 

[00:41:28] Mike: No, man. Once you understand the truth, you can't be upset with anybody 

[00:41:31] Denis: about it.

[00:41:31] You just, you, you accept him, like that he was- 

[00:41:32] Mike: Well, he did- ... kinda ignorant ... he did what he knew. He didn't do it intentionally. Did you 

[00:41:35] Denis: ever have a conversation about it? Like, "Hey, like you 

[00:41:38] Mike: know, just-" I did mention to him, yeah. Like- 

[00:41:40] Denis: Does he understand it or no? 

[00:41:41] Mike: Uh, I think, yeah, he did. He, he's like, yeah, he's like, "You know, like listen."

[00:41:45] He's like, "I have my own psychological problems. I'm try, I was trying to do the best I could." 

[00:41:49] Denis: It's how he grew up probably, 

[00:41:50] Mike: yeah. Yeah, I mean, my grandfather was a crazy dude. Mm. He was like exponentially more difficult, more psychological problems than my dad. 

[00:41:58] You know? So my dad was doing the best he could with the tools that he had and what he knew and, you know, came to America with young kids, you know, like no money.

[00:42:06] Denis: Yeah. 

[00:42:07] Mike: You know, trying to make a living, trying to survive. So he did the best he could, but no, I don't have any like, uh, resentment towards him about that, no. 

[00:42:14] Denis: Mm-hmm. No. What about you? You got like resentment towards them for kind of now you're seeing certain shit of like, you know? Or no? 

[00:42:21] Toliy: No. No, I definitely don't have like- Resentment just, yeah, like a, a lot of how they are and like what they valued and like how, how they were doing things definitely still today affects my life.

[00:42:39] But no, I, no, I definitely don't have like resentment or like, like, like anger, I think- Yeah ... part of growing up is learning how to take accountability. Yeah, 

[00:42:49] yeah. 

[00:42:49] Eldar: And seeing things for what they are. Just like Mike said, uh, he's, he, you know, he understood that his dad tried his best.

[00:42:55] I don't think that he, his dad did this on purpose. 

[00:42:57] Toliy: Yeah. You know? There's also like a value of like we, we can all easily sit here and like highlight for sure like the bad things, but at the end of the day, like whatever tools they gave us, it still helped us like, f- figure shit out and work on stuff and like- Get here.

[00:43:12] Get here, right? And that's al- al- also part with their like love and with their help and with their support. So like, I mean, my, my parents are always very loving, very like su- supporting. They were def- de- definitely very like, like busy, but I also had my grandparents and they helped like a ton.

[00:43:31] But yeah, I'm definitely not like upset or angry or like any of that. 

[00:43:37] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting how all the different- So don't worry. So when Dalila grows up, we'll tell her that, " look, your dad had what he had. He did his best." 

[00:43:46] Toliy: He was a little fucked up, but you know, you made it work. You're firing me off.

[00:43:50] Yeah. 

[00:43:50] Eldar: No, the good thing is, look, you have the ability, I think, to not dwell on the past, but to make the future, right? And today, you can focus on today, and the questions that you're raising I think are very important questions. Like, how do I actually communicate with my daughter who's now... Who I can potentially write th- their story for them for a pretty good amount of time until they start thinking for themselves and be like, "Wait a minute, what trauma my fucking dad and mom put in me?"

[00:44:17] You know what I mean? 

[00:44:18] Toliy: Yeah, I think that, like, they- I 

[00:44:19] Eldar: think you should stay away. 

[00:44:20] Toliy: Yeah, like I think kids are, like... They're, they'll they're built with, like, a relative, like... Like, she has a relatively, like, blank canvas. Yeah. And if you paint it in bad ways, she's gonna get bad qualities, but you also have the option to paint it, like, in, in good ways, and that's what she'll remember, and that's what she'll, she'll get.

[00:44:39] So I think, like, they're, like, kids are able to do, kind of go both ways, right? But it's also depending on, like, what you choose to do and what you... What, one, one thing I I still feel like, I know I already said it, but I, I just feel it's so important, the undivided attention thing. 

[00:44:55] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:44:55] Toliy: I think that if I had to bet, the majority of parents cannot provide undivided attention.

[00:45:02] They're, they're usually broken people, and broken people who are tired, who are, like pissed with their significant other. Like, "Oh, clean your shit up. Oh, go do this." Or, like, "You didn't do that." Or, like- 

[00:45:14] Eldar: Spread thin. 

[00:45:14] Toliy: They're spread thin. They, you know, I don't know. They, both, both parents work or, like, you know- 

[00:45:19] Eldar: Well, only one, only one more analogy, please.

[00:45:21] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, all 

[00:45:22] Eldar: right, fine. 

[00:45:22] Toliy: Yeah. '

[00:45:23] Eldar: Cause y- you're about to go on a crazy tangent. What i- what? You'll understand. Yeah, yeah. Trust me, guys. I saved you. Yeah, no, I understand. I saved you from a 30 minutes of analogies. Yeah, 

[00:45:31] Toliy: yeah, I like giving a bunch of, like, examples 

[00:45:32] Eldar: and like, uh- Toliy 

[00:45:34] Toliy: likes analogies.

[00:45:35] Yes. Analogies, you know? 

[00:45:35] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:45:36] Toliy: But the... Yeah. 

[00:45:37] Eldar: Enough. 

[00:45:37] Toliy: My point to this is that parents are just fucking tired. 

[00:45:41] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:45:41] Toliy: So because they're tired- 

[00:45:43] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:45:43] Toliy: That actual phrase, undi- Like, literally sitting there, not thinking about anything- Yeah ... and just being focused and zoned in on that moment- 

[00:45:50] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:45:51] Toliy: I'd probably say that that's, like, 1% if that, of those scenarios.

[00:45:55] Oh, damn. 

[00:45:56] Eldar: Damn, you optimistic, bro. 

[00:45:57] Toliy: Yeah, I've... No, I'm saying if that. What, maybe- Yeah ... one out of 100 scenarios because I think- Yeah ... most parents, again, they're, they have a broken home. They, they argue with each other. They don't have that love anymore with their wife- Yeah, fair ... or with, with whoever.

[00:46:11] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:11] Toliy: So yeah. They, they they then pa- that, all that pent up, like, frustration- 

[00:46:17] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:46:17] Toliy: is then passed on to that same way to the kid. 

[00:46:19] Eldar: Mm-hmm, 

[00:46:20] Toliy: yeah. It's, it's the shortness with them. 

[00:46:22] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:46:22] Toliy: It's the, uh, this, and then it's the need to, yeah, to do the validation to to do all that- Yeah ... to make up for their lack of ability, you 

[00:46:29] Eldar: know?

[00:46:30] So you resort to clapping your hands in their face. 

[00:46:34] Toliy: Yeah. Same thing as like, right, when a, like a kid's crying or they're, they're pissing off their parents, they, they just throw the iPad at them, right? "Oh, just watch this." That's it. Because they know 

[00:46:43] Eldar: the 

[00:46:43] Toliy: easy, the easy way. Now they get a free 30 to 60 minutes of freedom.

[00:46:47] Holy shit, right? So- But, 

[00:46:49] Eldar: but internally you feel like finally they shut the fuck up. 

[00:46:51] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:46:52] Damn. S- sorry. I just wanted to repeat that. Yeah, that was a little bit- ... bumpy. Yeah. But, but, but that, but that is what's happening. Here it is. Look, yo- Like a form that is- ... if I, if I'm lying, I'm flying, 

[00:47:03] Eldar: you know what I'm saying?

[00:47:04] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:47:05] Denis: I'm flying it kind of. Yeah. 

[00:47:07] Toliy: Yeah, no but a form of that is like, oh, you know? Oh, no, yeah. And then it just becomes so easy. Wait. Like- Option one, give, have actual energy, like focus, give my undivided attention. That's not 

[00:47:18] Denis: even an option anymore. 

[00:47:19] Toliy: Yeah. Option two, give them an iPad and throw on a show, and then I can do some other shit I want.

[00:47:25] No. 

[00:47:25] Denis: Okay. Yeah. So here's a question. Uh, you're admired by a lot of people, right? 

[00:47:30] Eldar: Uh, were? 

[00:47:32] Denis: I said are. Oh, 

[00:47:33] Eldar: okay. Yeah. 

[00:47:33] Denis: Good. Yeah. 

[00:47:34] Eldar: Present tense. I'm taking all the flowers, 

[00:47:36] Denis: bro. What, uh, what do you think, uh, did... Because I, I know both your parents. 

[00:47:46] Eldar: I wouldn't say they're like, uh- Enlightened gurus.

[00:47:49] Enchanting. You know what my mom did? The worst thing that she could have done for herself, or the best thing is, uh, shoved the Anastasia book in my hands- Well, yeah. So like that- ... when I was 18 years old ... 

[00:47:57] Denis: like break that down, right? What do you think in n- in the full kind of 

[00:48:00] Eldar: scope- Yeah ... if you were to kind of review your childhood specifically.

[00:48:03] Yeah. 

[00:48:03] Denis: What do you think they specifically- I'll- Give me some examples of what they did right ... well, first of all 

[00:48:07] Eldar: What they did wrong is the fact that I was a bad kid I did it all. I fought, I stole, drugs, I got in trouble, jail. I did it all. You know what I'm saying? So they fucked up too. 

[00:48:26] But the, but the, by the skin of their teeth, my mom went to her country, spoke to some guy, right?

[00:48:33] Came back and she's like, "Yo." She was kinda enlightened for the moment, and she passed that enlightenment for the moment, that little thing, to me by shoving this book in my face while I was gaming and not wanting to do anything with it. But something sparked where I'm like, "Oh shit, I can think." 'Cause in that moment was a dark moment for me, just like it was for you, where shit was like you don't know what the fuck you, who you are, what you are.

[00:48:52] You were depressed. And then I started to think, and that's why I, I got bit by the philosophy bug. 

[00:48:57] Denis: So I remember... I forgot about that, like kinda like how... So you're saying y- you would have to credit all... Like you were different before that? 

[00:49:05] Eldar: Of course, bro. Oh, yeah. Of course, bro. Before that, like radically different.

[00:49:06] Ask Mike, bro. Bro. I didn't know you back, I didn't know about that. We 

[00:49:06] Denis: did it all bad, bro. We were asshole all, like all the time, bro. I met you- Yeah ... I think it was like two, three years into that- Yeah ... journey, so like- Well, you met me when I was already, uh, on the journey of wanting to help the world. 

[00:49:07] Eldar: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[00:49:07] I had already discovered- Like you just, y- a couple years back- Yes ... you just That's why I was wor- I was working with kids ... yeah, yeah. That was already like, "Oh, all right," like I wanna do right. I used to kill animals, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like I was a bad kid. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I used to throw stones 

[00:49:08] Denis: at frogs.

[00:49:08] I

[00:49:34] Eldar: used to kill rabbits. Like- 

[00:49:36] I used to shoot birds. I've done like bad shit. I would never, ever like raise any 

[00:49:42] Katherine: kid- They say, they say- ... any kid ... those are the first signs of a, of a kid that then later turns into a serial killer. 

[00:49:46] Eldar: Yeah. You know what I mean? 

[00:49:47] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:49:49] Eldar: But like we, the kids did this in my country.

[00:49:51] Yeah. You know what I mean? Like we got together and threw rocks at, at frogs. 

[00:49:54] Katherine: Oh, it's 

[00:49:55] Eldar: terrible. Killed ants and shit, you know what I mean? Like- We played shit 

[00:49:56] Mike: in bowling balls. 

[00:49:58] Eldar: Well, that, that was just Joe. That's Joe. That, that's the least of what I've done. Like- That was just- You know? ... 

[00:50:02] Mike: uh, Joe. That was a shout-out to you, Joe.

[00:50:04] Eldar: Yeah. Shout-out to Joe. Yeah. Yeah. But like- Yeah ... I would never raise anybody like that. That's like crazy shit. 

[00:50:10] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:50:11] Eldar: You know what I mean? Killing ants and like shooting bir- I was shooting birds with my dad. My dad put me on that. You know- He had a rifle 

[00:50:18] Katherine: and I would, you know- You know the irony now is that you won't even kill a mosquito- Yeah

[00:50:20] now, and I, I beg you like, "Get this mosquito out of the, out of the kitchen." I, I feel terrible. You won't, you won't even hurt a fly. 

[00:50:25] Eldar: But because now I know better. 

[00:50:27] Katherine: Literally. I know. 

[00:50:27] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like I have animals. Like we live with animals. They're like, they're 

[00:50:31] Katherine: like- They're our children ... so precious.

[00:50:33] Eldar: You know what I'm saying? 

[00:50:34] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:50:35] Eldar: So it changed- But, but yeah, this, this- ... changed it all for you. Yeah. Yeah, I forgot about that. You used to talk a lot about that. I forgot about that. Yeah. That was like a big piece. So like where you came from, you were bad. I was bad, too. Yeah. Yeah, interesting.

[00:50:47] Toliy: Yeah, I feel like parents, they don't put a lot of value on, like, um, empowering their kids because I also feel like they have this insecurity that they maybe are not aware of, that they actually want their kids to rely on them and need them forever. And I feel like they- 

[00:51:04] Eldar: It 

[00:51:05] Toliy: sucks ... they, they will do everything they can, I think, to accidentally not empower you to not need them.

[00:51:10] You see, 

[00:51:10] Eldar: you see this shit right here? Mm. This is the truth. 

[00:51:12] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:51:12] Eldar: This is 100% truth. I just thought about that before. He read my mind and he said it the right way. 

[00:51:18] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:51:18] Eldar: They low-key doing this shit on purpose. They wanna be needed. Because they don't wanna sever the tie- Yeah ... that you always gonna need them, that you always their little baby.

[00:51:27] Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I think that, like, as, as you're- This is a crazy fucking what's his name? Uh, epiphany. 

[00:51:33] Toliy: Yeah, I feel like as you're rai- raising, like your daughter, like you and Asali are gonna have like a like a almost choice, but potentially not choice to make. Who are you guys?

[00:51:44] Do you continue to be Dennis and Asali, who grow your lives? Or do you just, or do you just adopt yourself into, like, where you lose your identity and then you just kind of do everything for, like, the kid? And naturally, if that's who you are and you're no longer Dennis, who has his own interests, who likes his own things, and Asali has her own interests, likes her own things, right?

[00:52:05] Like, I don't know, Asali likes yoga or stuff like... She drops all that, and she's just like a mom and she just, like, does that. It's a wrap, yeah. 

[00:52:11] Eldar: It's a 

[00:52:12] Toliy: wrap. Then she will unknowingly do everything possible to make sure that she's always needed by your daughter and that your daughter is always needed by, like, you, and that'll be like a forever thing, where you no longer have, like, any i- identity.

[00:52:25] And oftentimes you see parents who their kids get older and then they go into this depression, right? And they're like- 

[00:52:30] Denis: Yeah. "

[00:52:31] Toliy: Who am I?" Yeah. They haven't even done anything for themselves in, like, like a decade, right? 

[00:52:35] Denis: No. 

[00:52:35] Toliy: Like, what, what do they even do? 

[00:52:37] Denis: Then you... I guess that's when then resentment, you resent the kid and you're like, "All right, I'm, I'm done," 'cause 

[00:52:41] Toliy: you're just so tired.

[00:52:41] Yeah. You, you're just used to, like, what? Yeah. Making food, packing this, driving there, doing that. Mm-hmm. Like, you, you don't have any, uh, like... You definitely don't have any love with your, like, significant other. You just are like a, like a, a, like a service, you're like an Uber person for your child.

[00:52:58] You're like nobody pre- Yeah ... pretty 

[00:53:00] Eldar: much. Yeah. 

[00:53:01] Toliy: So yeah, you'll, you'll do all, all, all that, I think, you know? 

[00:53:05] Eldar: You killed the vibe, 

[00:53:06] Toliy: man. Yeah. 

[00:53:07] Eldar: You saved it, yeah, but. Yeah, that is a very good point. Do, but do you think it's a subconscious thing? Because they kind of know that- No, I 

[00:53:15] Mike: think it's- ... that attachment- I think what you're describing is just a result maybe or somehow I thought it was connected, like I agree with, with what you said, but I also think you cannot pass on something like that.

[00:53:25] You cannot pass, you cannot teach your kid to be empowered if you yourself are not empowered. Like how would you ever, how would you do that? Would that logically make sense? Is that even possible? 

[00:53:34] Eldar: No, I agree that it's probably not possible, but it's a subconscious thing where it's like you to some degree know that you've i- you've attached yourself to this identity of a helper.

[00:53:43] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:44] Eldar: Right? As a parent, that you help kids. Mm-hmm. That you do all the shit, you solve all their problems for them. Yeah. Right? You're always readily 

[00:53:50] Mike: available. Well, it's the same thing. You don't actually know anything about parenting. 

[00:53:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:53:53] Mike: That's why you do the cheap communication, lazy communication. 

[00:53:56] Eldar: Yeah.

[00:53:56] Mike: You wanna build this thing that- You're always available ... they're always depending on you. 

[00:53:59] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:53:59] Toliy: But, but 

[00:53:59] Mike: it's also tough. It's a cheap relationship. 

[00:54:01] Toliy: But it's also- It is ... tough because like- 

[00:54:03] Mike: Yeah ... 

[00:54:03] Toliy: yeah, like most people who obviously start to parent, they don't know how to parent, right? 'Cause they've never parented.

[00:54:08] Yeah. So it's like the process of learning that and the process of like I, I, I just think that too many parents, they want to like, like they, they're living kind of vicariously through their kids, and they do what they want. You know, like we all know that like that basketball dad that like forces his son to do shit- Mm

[00:54:28] that he doesn't wanna do. Like, you know, we, we saw it- 

[00:54:30] Denis: Yeah ... 

[00:54:31] Toliy: at The Ruck, right? We still see it. Where Harvey... Yeah, you still see it. 

[00:54:33] Denis: Yeah. 

[00:54:35] Toliy: They're doing that, and then they're, um, like- they're creating that kind of like, um, reliance. Mm-hmm. They're, they're like building like a, uh, like a machine, like a, like a Frankenstein type of thing.

[00:54:49] Mm-hmm. Right? 

[00:54:49] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:54:50] Toliy: Where like they're choosing to pass on everything, they're doing all that, right? And now you almost hear that like when, when like, this happens a lot with like, uh, fighters, right? They're like, you know, like they'll ask him like, oh, like uh, like they'll ask him about their kids, they're like, "Oh yeah, like I definitely don't want my son to like fight," or like- Yeah

[00:55:08] "I definitely don't want I definitely don't want him to do this," right? Yeah. But some people I think give the correct answer. They're like, "Hey, if they wanna do this, no problem. I'll support them." 

[00:55:16] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:55:17] Toliy: But they're like already choosing like, "Hey, not this- 

[00:55:20] Eldar: Not this because 

[00:55:20] Toliy: they know ... and not that. But I want you to do music or like- 

[00:55:23] Eldar: Mm-hmm

[00:55:23] Toliy: you know, like do this or like do, uh, like architecture, like stuff like that." They're already building this out. They're, they're, they're building out what they want for somebody, not what that person wants- 

[00:55:35] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:55:35] Toliy: for themselves. Yeah. I, I I think the job of parents is just to give as much proper information, right?

[00:55:42] And like as much education as, as possible to have like an empowered person that could think properly and make proper decisions. 

[00:55:50] Eldar: See, that's the thing, the issue is that with the, with the quote-unquote proper, you know, proper education you said, you know? Mm-hmm. And like you said, it's most likely that parents don't actually know what the fuck that means.

[00:55:59] Yeah. 

[00:56:00] Mike: That's, this is- Well, yeah ... this is a funny, um- Well, 

[00:56:02] Toliy: then the results 

[00:56:02] Mike: are the- Funny, uh, results ... funny, funny results ... the results. Coincidence or topic, but you know, I've been on a dating sites. 

[00:56:09] And two girls already asked me, "Why on your profile does it say, there's like a question, do you wanna have children, open to children or not?

[00:56:17] And I said, "I'm not sure." 

[00:56:18] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[00:56:18] Mike: You know? 

[00:56:19] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:56:19] Mike: So two girls already asked me about this, like- Yeah ... "Why not?" And obviously- Yeah. 

[00:56:23] Eldar: It's a very deep 

[00:56:24] Mike: conversation ... just, just yesterday- 

[00:56:25] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:56:25] Mike: you know, this girl that I'm talking to- 

[00:56:27] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:56:27] Mike: she asked me this question. She's like, "Why'd you have that?" And I had, I gave her like a whole spiel.

[00:56:30] I said, "Well, I understood what it took to try to raise myself- 

[00:56:34] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:56:34] Mike: out of what I came from- 

[00:56:36] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:56:36] Mike: and how import- how hard it is to do like, you know, to get that right. Now I can only imagine what it would require to do that- For the child not to fuck up- Yeah ... be able to give 100% attention- Yeah ... focus. 

[00:56:47] Eldar: You would need the right 

[00:56:48] Mike: partner.

[00:56:48] Not to give my own problems. Yeah. Yeah, to have the right partner, to be on the same page. 

[00:56:52] Eldar: Be in love. 

[00:56:53] Mike: To be in love. Like- Yeah ... a lot of things that add up. I'm not willing to just, like, jump into it. Just wing 

[00:56:57] Eldar: it. 

[00:56:58] Mike: Where, and I, and where before I was like, "Oh, yeah, I definitely want kids." 

[00:57:03] Everybody loves Uncle Mike.

[00:57:04] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:57:04] Mike: You know? Yeah. So... And I'm good with kids, and obviously I, you know, it's like, "Oh, it sounds amazing," but as, as I understood the own severity of my own journey- 

[00:57:14] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[00:57:15] Mike: and the challenges, I'm like, "Yo." 

[00:57:16] Eldar: You wouldn't wish that upon anyone. 

[00:57:18] Mike: I'm not ready to just say, "Hey, 100% yes." 

[00:57:21] Toliy: Of course. 

[00:57:21] Mike: You know? Of 

[00:57:22] Toliy: course.

[00:57:22] Yeah, like it has to be, like, uh, again, how many parents that then have kids, I mean, like, I don't know if they would admit to it la- later on in life, right? But, or if they can even realize it, but if you were guaranteed to lose yourself and lose who you are, would you still have them? 

[00:57:39] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:57:39] Toliy: No? Well, the 

[00:57:40] Katherine: thing that- So what was your question, Toliy?

[00:57:41] If you were guaranteed to what? Like- Lose yourself? Yeah, 

[00:57:42] Toliy: like like parents who end up, like, losing themselves and, like, you know, like, stop taking care of themselves and then just, like, letting everything go and just, like turning into, like, a mess, right? Was it still a good enough... Was it still a good decision to have kids to begin with?

[00:57:59] Right? 

[00:57:59] Mike: Well, it's also- So, like- Yeah, again, the whole thing about- You know? ... having kids is just a completely wrong thing. You don't have to lose yourself. It's just that perception like, oh, the kid wants to do what the kids wanna do or, like, giving up your own things. No, but I'm 

[00:58:09] Toliy: saying, like, you already know after a fact that, like, th- this is what, what, what had happened.

[00:58:13] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[00:58:14] Toliy: And, like, because you were lacking knowledge, like, this is what happened. Like, if, like, if you guys knew that, like, "Hey, if you were to have kids, you're gonna start talking nasty to each other and then have this bad relationship," would you wanna have them? 

[00:58:24] Eldar: Absolutely not. 

[00:58:25] Toliy: No. Yeah. Absolutely 

[00:58:26] not.

[00:58:26] But that's what happens, is that, like- Yeah ... you hear how people talk and you're like, "Oh, shit." Yeah. This is how she talks to him or how he talks to her. 

[00:58:34] Eldar: Yeah. 

[00:58:34] Toliy: Yeah. It, like, it looks bad. Yeah. But I guarantee that that's not how it always was. Mm. 

[00:58:40] Eldar: Absolutely. 

[00:58:41] Toliy: You 

[00:58:41] Eldar: know? So what happened? 

[00:58:41] Toliy: So what happened?

[00:58:42] Eldar: It's unprepared- Right? ... people got into a very- Yes ... very, very serious situation. 

[00:58:46] Toliy: Yes. Yes. It's a thing that requires ultimate self-development and ultimate preparation. 

[00:58:52] Eldar: Because the kid is gonna be the mirror that you've never looked in. Babe, what do you think? 

[00:58:58] Katherine: No, 

[00:58:58] Eldar: babe- Are we onto something? 

[00:58:59] Katherine: No, of course we are.

[00:59:00] Eldar: Are we not always onto something? 

[00:59:01] Katherine: Yeah. 

[00:59:02] Eldar: Are we good at what we do? 

[00:59:03] Katherine: Absolutely. 

[00:59:04] Eldar: Holy shit, man. 

[00:59:05] Katherine: I don't say this often enough because, like, I find sometimes that I can, I can very, like, I second-guess myself a lot sometimes- 

[00:59:13] About not standing firmly on, on, on something. I always think about things, like, more than one, one, one way and consistently, like, going back and forth with of being in love and wanting to grow our family and share this love that we have and then consistently going back to this right here of, like- This is such a big deal.

[00:59:43] Toliy: Yeah. 

[00:59:43] Katherine: And I, I don't wanna half-ass it. And- 

[00:59:46] Toliy: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:59:46] Katherine: I know that there's so many things that I still need to work on- Yeah ... for myself- Mm-hmm ... um, just in, in general. And, you know, I know I have a... I would have a lot of love to give, but still, like, I don't know if that's enough, in my opinion, obviously.

[01:00:01] Yeah. Just my opinion on, like, you know, what I would wanna give, you know? You know, the world has suffering. There's already so much naturally, like, built into, like, the life experience. Would I be able to give, like, the proper tools to navigate, you know? Like- Yeah, 

[01:00:18] Toliy: not 

[01:00:18] Katherine: suffer ... I felt like a lot of times, you know, like in my life, like I wasn't given those tools and I, you know, learned them in therapy.

[01:00:24] But I suffered a lot, you know- 

[01:00:28] Toliy: Yeah ... 

[01:00:28] Katherine: before that, you know? So it's such a massive deal. And a lot of times I don't voice it because I, I feel like you are so confident and so empowered in general, like you, in everything that you do. But... And I'm really, like, resonating what you guys are saying because I feel that all the time.

[01:00:48] Like, it is such a big deal to bring life into this world, and then do right by them- 

[01:00:54] Toliy: Yeah ... 

[01:00:54] Katherine: and not cause any more harm. It's, you know, like it's, it's a, it's, that's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. 

[01:01:00] Toliy: Yeah, I feel like if you suffer- Yeah. So 

[01:01:01] Katherine: I, I constantly go through this 

[01:01:03] Toliy: all the time ... and and you know, like, what you go through, right?

[01:01:06] Like, if I have anxiety- 

[01:01:08] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:01:08] Toliy: and I still have it, there's no world where I w- would wanna have a kid because I also know- Yeah, that's responsible ... how painful and how difficult- Yeah ... it is myself. Yeah. And I know for a fact- Passing that on ... I don't know exactly how,

[01:01:19] like ob- obviously. Yeah. But I know for a fact- I'm gonna pass it on. And then now it's like, now I'm like- You gotta live with that ... yeah, now you have to live with that and know- Yeah ... that like, hey, like this is what you did. 

[01:01:29] Katherine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And 

[01:01:30] Toliy: I, to, to me it's definitely like a tough- 

[01:01:32] Katherine: Yeah, I think about that a lot.

[01:01:33] Yeah. 

[01:01:33] Toliy: You 

[01:01:34] Katherine: gotta live with all 

[01:01:34] Toliy: of. 

[01:01:34] Katherine: And like, like as a woman, like the, you know, it's, it's two of us that come together and make, make a child, right? But that child is gonna live inside of me and share cells with me and share everything- Yeah ... with my body. If my body's not 100%, or maybe my health isn't 100%, I think about my anxiety.

[01:01:51] Think about, like e- all the other health stuff- Yeah ... that I have. I don't wanna give that to them. I don't wanna give them a risk of insulin resistance or this or that or, or anxiety. Like, I don't, you know? I think 

[01:02:04] Eldar: that's responsible. Yeah. Like yeah, I think that's a good 

[01:02:05] Katherine: thing. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm in conflict all the time between like...

[01:02:09] Well, it's not like I can choose, you know? I've, I've had infertility for quite a while, but that uh, r- before you walked in, Toliy, I was saying like, you know, that, that like desire to like share our love and, and, you know share each other in, in that experience versus, oh, like I can't help but have like these doubts come in of, of like, will I g- am I gonna be able to- Mm-hmm

[01:02:32] you know, provide everything that they need? Like, I still have things that I wanna work on myself, you know? So like- 

[01:02:38] Toliy: Yeah, I think oftentimes too a, uh, like a recurring trick happens I think for a lot of people especially because like this happens in relationships, I feel like this happens in, you know, in like work and business.

[01:02:52] Like this happens in like a lot of different things where we see how people act and we see how people are, and we make a lot of assumptions, and we don't... And we, we think that they're to the standards that we ourselves like want. Like for example, right? You see a family and then like, "Oh, like look, like I definitely want kids.

[01:03:09] Like look at them. They're, they're happy." 

[01:03:11] Katherine: Oh, yeah. 

[01:03:11] Toliy: Right? 

[01:03:11] Katherine: So easy to- 

[01:03:12] Toliy: But you don't know what's going on- Yeah, 

[01:03:13] Katherine: it's so easy to just be, "

[01:03:14] Toliy: Oh, that's so cute." Yeah ... in that family. You don't know what that dynamic is like, right? Or it's like the same thing as like looking at someone who's like super wealthy, right?

[01:03:20] And you're like, "Oh, wow, like look at that. They're crushing it." Are they crushing it? Right? Yeah. What's their relationship with their family, with their wife, with like whoever, right? Mm-hmm. Or like how do they go about doing business? Are they stealing? 

[01:03:32] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:03:32] Toliy: Are they lying? Are they ripping people off? Right?

[01:03:35] So lots of times I think a lot of people can get like FOMO, and they can kind of like feel particular ways by seeing what other people are seeing and, and- Yeah ... there definitely are good moments, but- It's, it, it's, it, it, it's like very difficult to make the right assumption as to whether like this is what you actually want or like this is what your standards are or like- Mm-hmm

[01:03:58] are you okay with what they're doing, right? Yeah. And, and all of those things, and I think that m- many people, again, like that, that's why I say that like the, uh uh, not only in how they act but how they speak. Like the lang- the English language and just language in general is very general and very dangerous because like very like simple words are used to describe very complicated like things that have like- A lot to it, yeah. 

[01:04:29] But those assumptions are made that like, oh, yeah, like it's just awesome to have kids. 

[01:04:33] Katherine: Yeah. Like, 

[01:04:33] Toliy: it's just awesome. 

[01:04:34] Katherine: Well, also like the societal pressure- Yes ... and it's also so normal. 

[01:04:37] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:04:38] Katherine: Every- everyone does it, you know? And at a certain point, I feel like a woman in general like feel a lot of pressure- 

[01:04:43] Toliy: Yeah

[01:04:44] Katherine: whether, you know, they reach a certain age and they're not married, whether they reach a certain age and they don't have kids especially, you know? There is that pressure. 

[01:04:51] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:04:51] Katherine: And then we sign up for it like thinking, "Oh, you know, uh, you know, this is what society expects of me. This is what I want." And then, you know, we show up and then, then we realize, like- 

[01:05:00] Toliy: Yeah, that's 

[01:05:00] Katherine: why I feel like, yeah, like-

[01:05:01] how, how tough it actually is ... 

[01:05:02] Toliy: you you have to like, you have to be sure of like who you are and what you want. And like, like Elder said, like, yeah, you have to be like extremely comfortable with looking in that mirror- 

[01:05:14] Katherine: Yeah ... 

[01:05:14] Toliy: and seeing what you like. And if you don't, then I would run for the hills. 

[01:05:18] Katherine: Yeah.

[01:05:19] Toliy: You know? For most people- I 

[01:05:20] Katherine: think I recently told you this 

[01:05:22] Toliy: too. Mo- mo- Yeah ... most people ignore- Yeah ... what they see. Yeah. Correct. Correct. Right? And they'll say like, "Oh, no, hey, h- hey, like, things will actually get better when we have a kid. Like, we'll have better attitudes," right? Mm-hmm. Or like- ... "We'll have better habits"- We-

[01:05:33] or like- 

[01:05:34] Katherine: We had a friend ... 

[01:05:35] Toliy: if only I- ... that went 

[01:05:36] Katherine: into marriage 

[01:05:37] Toliy: with that guy ... yeah, if only I had this- I remember ... then like- Yeah ... that'll happen. Yeah. Everyone always has those thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. But no chance. It, it, it'll only get, it, it- Wishful thinking ... it might get, get better for a little bit. 

[01:05:47] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:05:47] Toliy: Right?

[01:05:48] It's it a, an, another analogy here, right? When, um when my mom had that, uh tumor in her heart, right? 

[01:06:00] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:06:00] Toliy: And my family had particular ways of eating or like doing things, right? And she got that removed. What happened to my family, in, in my household? 

[01:06:07] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:06:07] Toliy: Sweet potato, baked sweet potato, grilled chicken-

[01:06:11] uh, uh, broccoli- Broccoli, uh ... you know, do this, or roast vegetables. Like, hey, let's not have- Sprouted beans ... sprouted beans. Let's do this, right? Everyone's on this high alert- Potatoes ... to like do particular things, right? And then that only happened for so long. 

[01:06:27] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:06:28] And then go, you back 

[01:06:28] Toliy: to your normal routine.

[01:06:29] Everyone, yeah, everyone kind of united. Everyone agreed, they're like, "Hey, yeah, we gotta do better things. We gotta do this. We gotta do that." And then it was gone. And now it's to, back to kielbaski and, uh, yeah. 

[01:06:39] Eldar: Smetana. Yeah, 

[01:06:40] Toliy: Smetana. 

[01:06:42] Eldar: Which is sour cream and sausage. 

[01:06:46] Toliy: Yeah, yeah. Ev- everyone can have that bettering mo- moment, but it's, it, it's like a, like a tank of gas with like a hole in it.

[01:06:55] Eldar: Hmm. 

[01:06:55] Toliy: It it's a very... If you don't have that established, like, as, as yourself it's a very fleeting resource. 

[01:07:03] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:07:03] Toliy: But I think that, like, if you're a person who has wisdom and you're a person of like- knowledge and you're sure of it, and you're comfortable looking in that mirror and doing all that stuff, I think you have like a, uh, an endless resource that you can use- 

[01:07:18] Forever that, that, that is not fleeting because, like, it, like it's yours and it's yours forever. That- Yeah ... there's no like limited supply of it. 

[01:07:26] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:07:27] Toliy: Because you you, you value that, that wisdom. You value that knowledge. You, you, you value that like way of living, you know? But yeah, I think mo- most people just are, um they think that if they have something, then something else will then happen and, and if only they were to get that- 

[01:07:45] Mm

[01:07:45] then things would change. And if that's your mind- Oh, yeah ... mindset, I think that, yeah, like I think you're in for a surprise. 

[01:07:50] Katherine: Well, yeah. Like if only I find a husband, I'll, you know, I'll be okay. Or- Yeah ... if only finally able to... You know, like infertility's such a big deal now. A- almost everyone is encountering it.

[01:08:01] Now it's like, if only I could just, you know, uh, start my family. It's, it's, it's always that. 

[01:08:06] Eldar: How's it looked upon by the community? It's a bad thing, right? 

[01:08:09] Katherine: What? What thing? 

[01:08:09] Eldar: Infertility. 

[01:08:12] Katherine: Well generally of course, yeah Yeah, right Like- That's 

[01:08:14] Eldar: such a good thing, it's crazy, right? 

[01:08:15] Katherine: You know, for so many people that are ready or, you know, think they're ready- 

[01:08:18] Denis: It's such a 

[01:08:19] Eldar: good thing?

[01:08:19] We- He's confused. I, I, 

[01:08:21] Denis: I didn't know if you said it's not a such a good thing or it is such 

[01:08:24] Eldar: a good thing. It's such a good thing, it's crazy. 

[01:08:25] Katherine: Oh, he's saying it's a good thing. What does 

[01:08:27] Denis: that mean? 

[01:08:28] Eldar: Well- 

[01:08:28] Katherine: Well, that's controversial ... you, 

[01:08:29] Eldar: yeah, you, you missed the- I know, he's trying 

[01:08:30] Denis: to be controversial. 

[01:08:31] Eldar: Well, no, I'm not trying to be contro- Yeah, you, you have- No, he just is.

[01:08:34] I'm trying to, I'm trying to make a conclusion based on what 

[01:08:35] Toliy: everything that Toliy just said. Yeah. Well, well no, you, you have, I think in general in society you have a lot of unqualified parents having kids. This is just across the board. 

[01:08:44] Denis: Well, what about your boy Elon saying we gotta be careful with the, with the birth rates, though?

[01:08:48] Well, yeah, he's the opposite way. Just 'cause he says it. Yeah, but boy- He's 

[01:08:48] Eldar: a social, he's a social retard though. What do you mean, my boy? Yeah. 

[01:08:52] Denis: He's not your boy anymore? 

[01:08:54] Eldar: He's been my... Well, yeah, he's very good at making the Tesla and products that he owns, and we fuck with that. But doesn't mean that he knows- Yeah, but 

[01:08:59] Denis: that's like-

[01:08:59] other things. 

[01:08:59] Eldar: I, yeah, yeah. He's 

[01:09:00] Toliy: a 

[01:09:00] Eldar: social- 

[01:09:01] Denis: Nah ... retard. I thought you guys, you 

[01:09:02] Eldar: know- Yeah ... 

[01:09:03] Denis: I thought he was all-encompassing, no? 

[01:09:04] Eldar: All right. All- I like his Teslas now No, no, no, 

[01:09:06] Denis: no. Nowadays I'm a big fan. 

[01:09:07] Eldar: Listen, we s- we, we like his Teslas, man. Yeah. 

[01:09:09] Toliy: And a 

[01:09:09] Eldar: lot of s- shit that he says we agree with- 

[01:09:11] Toliy: Yeah, I mean that-

[01:09:12] but doesn't mean that he's got, got it all ... there's plenty of people in society who are good at things. Like, some people are good at making money, it doesn't mean that they're good at being a good person. That's 

[01:09:18] Eldar: it, no more. Give 

[01:09:18] Toliy: us- 

[01:09:18] Eldar: That's the one that won ... 

[01:09:19] Mike: no, just one. One more. One more. Give me 

[01:09:20] Eldar: one more.

[01:09:20] Dennis has missed out on, like, a long time. One more. One more. 

[01:09:22] Toliy: Yeah, he did. Yeah, he did. So, like- 

[01:09:24] Denis: He doesn't... He'll go on and on? 

[01:09:25] Toliy: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, he'll go on for four or five. He likes, like- Yeah ... 

[01:09:26] Denis: multiple analogies. Yes, 

[01:09:28] Toliy: yes. Yeah. Yes. To make sure it 

[01:09:29] Eldar: sticks. 

[01:09:30] Toliy: Four 

[01:09:30] Katherine: or five 

[01:09:30] Toliy: isn't that much. Yeah, it has to stick.

[01:09:31] Katherine: Hey, you wanna make sure that everybody is, like, catching your drift, you know? No, but 

[01:09:34] Toliy: he goes on a few times, bro, so. Catching your drift. But it's also, it's like, ooh, you guys have to give more, like saying like, "Hey, I, I know what you're saying," or like, "I understand." 

[01:09:40] Katherine: Oh, 

[01:09:41] Toliy: he's looking for assurance. But you, you already- He's looking for 

[01:09:42] Denis: positive reinforcement.

[01:09:43] Toliy: He's looking, yeah. No. No, because he's looking- I'm looking for comprehension ... for retards. Yeah. Yes, I agree. I'm looking for comprehension. He's looking for comprehension. Yeah. I agree with 

[01:09:49] Denis: that, 

[01:09:49] Eldar: yes. 

[01:09:49] Denis: Yeah. Look at 

[01:09:50] Katherine: Dennis, he's fucking- He doesn't believe 

[01:09:51] Eldar: that we understand. 

[01:09:52] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:09:52] Eldar: Which is fine. Yeah. 

[01:09:54] Katherine: I'm okay with that.

[01:09:54] Yeah. I have 

[01:09:55] Denis: that problem with Asley. 

[01:09:56] Eldar: Yeah? 

[01:09:57] Denis: And sh- yeah, 'cause she'll just, like, listen and not say anything, and then, and then I'll- I g- I give cat quizzes ... she'll listen and 

[01:10:00] Eldar: not- Yeah. And then I'll repeat 

[01:10:00] Denis: myself. I get the opposite. "Why are you repeating yourself? I fucking got it." I, s- I, I, I hate it. Yeah. How many times are you gonna say it?

[01:10:01] I give cat quizzes, man.

[01:10:08] Katherine: It's so annoying. Yeah? I don't, I don't participate- What's an example? ... in them anymore.

[01:10:39] Eldar: No, no, no, she- 50/50 or 70/30? No, no, she, she pays attention a lot of the times. Yeah. A lot of the times she pays attention. Yeah. 

[01:10:44] Katherine: I'm glad he's being honest- Yes ... about this. 

[01:10:46] Eldar: 60/40. But I also, but I also conditioned it too, because we also have money games in it too involved, you know what I mean? Prizes. Yeah, but that's more recent.

[01:10:51] Prizes, yeah. No, no, no, 

[01:10:51] Katherine: but that's more recent. Live prizes. That's 

[01:10:52] Eldar: recent stuff.

[01:10:56] Katherine: So no, 

[01:10:57] Eldar: that's for different things, you know? Yeah. We have different games that we play. We have, we, 

[01:10:59] Katherine: we, like- So you have to pay attention ... we bet now, but like- 

[01:11:03] Eldar: Yeah ... that's new. You like 

[01:11:03] Denis: that part. Like, why not? 

[01:11:04] Katherine: When I win, I like it. Yeah, 

[01:11:06] Eldar: she wins a lot. 

[01:11:06] Katherine: Sometimes I lose. She, she, yeah. But I, I win, I win a lot. 

[01:11:09] Eldar: It pays to pay attention to my nonsense, and then, like, play along with my games.

[01:11:13] Yes or no? 

[01:11:15] Katherine: Yeah. 

[01:11:15] Eldar: It does, yeah. Mm. 

[01:11:16] Katherine: Yeah. But it's different. And 

[01:11:18] Eldar: she, and she knows 

[01:11:18] Katherine: me really well now. When we're watching a show and you're like, "Babe, this person, if you guess it- 

[01:11:22] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:11:23] Katherine: I'm gonna give you this much," versus like- Yeah ... we'll, we'll just have a conversation and then suddenly, like, he'll repeat himself or, or, or he'll, you know, like, "Well, what did, what did I say?"

[01:11:31] And I'm like, "Babe, are you kidding me? Like, I'm not asleep. Like, of course I heard what you were saying." So it's, it's just a little silly. Yeah. But anyway. My, I got a question. We 

[01:11:39] Denis: just 

[01:11:39] Mike: wanna be heard. Yes, brother. Brother Dennis. It's, 

[01:11:41] Denis: I'm tr- I'm, it's not, like, unrelated. It's kinda related to that. Of 

[01:11:44] Mike: course.

[01:11:44] Eldar: Why, why, why you have to say that? You don't have to say that. 

[01:11:46] Denis: Well, 'cause I don't wanna make it sound like I'm trying to, you know- Steal 

[01:11:49] Mike: all the conversation ... take over Toliy's show. 

[01:11:51] Denis: You, uh... Would you say that in the last couple years, right, as you, undoing these things that you mentioned- Mm-hmm ... like, let's say, with your father, the, all this kinda confusion shit, all this stuff- Yeah

[01:12:01] are you, like- You feel good or are you exhausted? 

[01:12:08] Katherine: That's a good question. 

[01:12:08] Mike: Uh, that, that's 

[01:12:10] Denis: like a- I can break that down if you want me to. 

[01:12:12] Mike: Yeah, do it. Yeah. To 

[01:12:13] Denis: me- Please do. 

[01:12:13] Mike: Please explain. Yeah. Do it. Do it. To me, it's a- 

[01:12:16] Denis: I got- 

[01:12:17] Mike: That's not a logical question. 

[01:12:18] Denis: It's not a logical question? 

[01:12:19] Mike: No, but maybe I'm not understanding something.

[01:12:21] Denis: Like, I feel like you're tired. 

[01:12:25] Katherine: Oh, you 

[01:12:27] Denis: feel like he's tired. Yes. 

[01:12:28] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:12:28] Eldar: Oh. Yeah. That's 

[01:12:29] Katherine: not where- The, the crazy- Did you see without... Did you, you saw how 

[01:12:33] Eldar: that was going? That's, yes. No, 

[01:12:33] Katherine: Dennis is the man. That's definitely not how I- That's why 

[01:12:34] Eldar: Dennis provides, like, a lot of good content- How I saw this conversation

[01:12:36] some funny funny things. But, but that's, I don't know if that's gonna fix you. And a lot of times, and a lot of times he's completely off. Yeah. 

[01:12:42] Katherine: That's actually not where I saw that going at all. 

[01:12:44] Eldar: Yeah. Oh, no. Den- Dennis usually go- hits with those types of things- ... from the left field. 

[01:12:48] Katherine: Yeah. You surprise me.

[01:12:49] Denis: I'm off? 

[01:12:49] Mike: Completely. Really? 

[01:12:51] Katherine: Well, no, no. Yeah. Let, let, but I mean, 

[01:12:52] Denis: let's hear from Mike. But that's been said why I haven't been around, so that's what I'm saying, like- 

[01:12:54] Mike: Yeah ... 

[01:12:55] Denis: the couple days that I see him, I feel like he's tired. I am physically tired. 

[01:12:58] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. But that's because also one of the people that was working here was away on vacation for, like, past two weeks.

[01:13:03] So- Okay. 

[01:13:04] Denis: That's, 

[01:13:04] Mike: you see me Friday, which I was exhausted 'cause it was- Yeah ... a whole week. 

[01:13:08] Denis: Yeah, 

[01:13:08] Mike: but- I was 

[01:13:08] Denis: try- but I, I'm not trying to be co- But- But I'm trying to tie the two 

[01:13:10] Mike: and 

[01:13:11] Denis: maybe- 

[01:13:11] Mike: But there's no, uh, no ... he's got, he got so much- That, that's im- that's an impossible equation, because discovering the truth is one of the most empowering things.

[01:13:18] Denis: Yeah? 

[01:13:19] Mike: And the most energetic things that, uh- And you, and the thing is, you ca- You can, you can- Yeah, you came back into his, into our lives and his life at a perfect time, because he's about to ramp up like crazy. I'll ramp up. 

[01:13:29] Katherine: Ca- can I add something to that, though? Yeah. Yo, 

[01:13:31] Mike: save that money for the, the bike trip, man.

[01:13:34] You're gonna redeem it soon. Yeah. 

[01:13:35] Eldar: Yes. 

[01:13:37] Katherine: The, the, the, the way I understood that question was, you know how I had some moments where I was, like, so overwhelmed with, like- 

[01:13:42] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:13:42] Katherine: the relationship with my mom because I didn't know how to have- Yeah ... boundaries, for example? That was, like, 

[01:13:46] Eldar: four or five years ago for him.

[01:13:47] Yeah, it was a 

[01:13:48] Katherine: while. So that was a few years ago for me as well. I still, you know, I still have my moments, of course. Yeah. But, like, when I, I brought that to therapy and I was having such a hard time, I was feeling, my mom can be very overbearing. And I would get overwhelmed by her, and I, I didn't know how to set the boundaries.

[01:14:03] So as I started bringing that up in therapy, there would be moments where I would walk in and I would just... I was so overwhelmed, and it become so tiring because it was, like, emotional and overwhelming and challenging for me to, to just- Talking about the shit nonstop. Yeah, yeah ... put, put some, some changes in motion, right?

[01:14:19] You know, that's where, like, the change comes in. So I thou- I thought that's where you were going with that. Mm. Wha- what, what was the- I thought, where you're going ... what's 

[01:14:22] Mike: the signals you saw that made you, uh, ask that? 

[01:14:27] Denis: I don't know. I mean, just because- Did you see 

[01:14:28] Mike: something 

[01:14:28] Denis: on- ... you see, I haven't been here in three years, right?

[01:14:30] If you 

[01:14:30] Katherine: see something, say something. 

[01:14:32] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:14:32] Denis: Yes. Yeah. And I just connected the two, 'cause, like, you are going on, uh, you know, these few years of un- like you said, you're undoing stuff. Yeah. You made a lot of life changes, right? You're working here now, all this different stuff. Mm-hmm. So I just, I don't know, I just, I kind of- 

[01:14:44] Mike: No, no, no, 

[01:14:45] Denis: I'm-

[01:14:45] I felt like you were, like, you know, 

[01:14:46] Mike: you might be, like- ... I'm, I mean, at times I'm physically tired, but I think that's because I do a lot of stuff. I'm very busy. Yeah. Like, uh, I'm very physically active. I'm mentally active. Like- 

[01:14:55] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:14:55] Mike: you know, um- 

[01:14:57] Eldar: All right ... 

[01:14:57] Mike: I'm- 

[01:14:57] Eldar: I mean, not to speak- ... 

[01:14:58] Mike: computing more ... 

[01:14:59] Eldar: not to speak for Mike, but you recently even said, Mike, like, you, you found the most amount of peace ever.

[01:15:04] Yeah. For real. Yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah. And that means, that means where, f- from the turmoil that he came from, you obviously weren't here, all the things that he needed to kind of, like, work through. You know what I mean? Like, uh, he's finally found a way to be able to, uh, give himself enough time to think things through and do a little bit of preventative care before he steps in ne- next pile of shit.

[01:15:25] Denis: Maybe 

[01:15:25] Eldar: I'm gonna season- Even with, even with the Polina stuff, right? Like, the way you handled that. Like, you were like, "Yo, yo, yo. I'm ramping, Eldar. Like, what's going on here? How do I move properly in order t- not to step in shit?" And he took the time in order to evaluate what's right, what's wrong, and then presented himself in the proper way in order to have peace.

[01:15:43] Denis: Yeah, I guess maybe I confused, as an outsider, like, uh tiredness for- 

[01:15:48] Eldar: He's calm. Like, maybe 

[01:15:50] Mike: he's- Yeah. Yeah ... 

[01:15:52] Eldar: he's more calm 

[01:15:53] Denis: right 

[01:15:53] Eldar: now- 

[01:15:53] Mike: That's very funny you mention that ... than I was used to. Yes. That is very funny you mention that, because I went on, like, a couple dates recently, and all, all, all the girls- 

[01:15:58] Eldar: It was a 

[01:15:59] Mike: feedback

[01:15:59] all, all 

[01:15:59] Eldar: Hey. Hey. 

[01:16:01] Mike: Hey. All the, all the girls said- Well, that's what I'm saying, 'cause I get to be an outsider, you know? All the... And not all the girls- Yeah ... but I only went on a couple dates. But a couple dates, all the girls said, "Wow, you... Like, you're very extremely calm." 

[01:16:10] Denis: Yeah. 

[01:16:10] Mike: And I was, like, almost in a, in a...

[01:16:11] For a second, I took it as, like, offensive. Like, "Yo, wait, I'm a crazy bastard. I get mad excited." Like, hey, you're just like, we're just- That was 

[01:16:17] Denis: your old identity. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, 

[01:16:18] Mike: yeah. So, like, now I'm like, uh, yeah, I'm more calm now. Uh-huh. More quiet More 

[01:16:23] Denis: quiet, okay. 

[01:16:24] Mike: Yeah, yeah. But obviously, you know, I can still have fun and get excited, but I don't want it, it to be, like, out of control how it used to be like, you know?

[01:16:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:16:31] Mike: Going on doing stupid shit, you know? 

[01:16:33] Eldar: Okay. All 

[01:16:34] Denis: right. 

[01:16:34] Mike: And obviously- Fair enough ... if 

[01:16:35] Eldar: you stick around long enough, I think that he can walk you through some of the stories. Some of the stories are wild too. I missed 

[01:16:40] Mike: some stuff? Yeah. Yeah, you missed some stuff. 

[01:16:41] Eldar: Yeah, you missed some stuff. 

[01:16:42] Mike: Wow. Some stuff that probably from Dennis's notebook.

[01:16:43] Yes, that was from Dennis'. Really?

[01:16:47] Really? 

[01:16:47] Denis: Yo, we gotta go to- I don't remember ... 

[01:16:48] Eldar: Casano's. We'll figure it out, bro ... we gotta go get, get a... 

[01:16:50] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:16:50] Eldar: Yeah. So the- but that is an interesting perspective. From where- Yeah, yeah ... he's standing, you see that, right? He's like, "Oh, Mike is tired. He's kinda, like, exhausted or whatever." Yeah. Where I know, I went through that journey, and I know how actually tired and overwhelmed and in turmoil you really were- Mm-hmm

[01:17:04] three, four years ago- Yeah ... when you had to solve some of the problems that you were- Yeah ... facing head on. Mm-hmm. 

[01:17:09] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:17:09] Eldar: You know? That was completely taking away from your peace. That 

[01:17:12] Denis: business drained you, huh? 

[01:17:13] Eldar: Oh, yeah. 

[01:17:14] Mike: The thing is, the relationship- I remember in those moments, you were tired ... the relationship and the way that they see me- Yeah

[01:17:19] and the way that they, like, uh... The way they see who I am, for them, the role I play in their lives is extremely, like, unhealthy, toxic the worst of the worst position to be in. 

[01:17:30] Denis: Question for you. 

[01:17:31] Are you- And be honest. Don't give me just like a philosophical answer back, you know what I mean? Don't give me like a tease answer back, you know what I mean?

[01:17:40] Mike: I like that you're upfront with it, though, to be honest, 

[01:17:43] Denis: Do you, a, a little bit of you wishes that like, 'cause, you know, like Moonlight was your baby, right? It was your, it was your, it was your idea, you came up with it. It fed you for so long. 

[01:17:52] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:17:53] Denis: Is there a little part of you wishes you never, just 'cause like you, you wish you never tried to retire them?

[01:17:57] Do you wish that you never um, what's the word, kind of put it all together, involve the family in the business? 

[01:18:03] Mike: Uh- 

[01:18:04] Toliy: Yeah ... I'm gonna I'm gonna answer for, for Mike and just an- answer just blanket this and- Say it all ... say the philosophical answer. I think re- re- regret is usually like a sign that like the wisdom has not hit yet.

[01:18:17] Denis: Yeah, but- 

[01:18:18] Toliy: Okay. So I feel like y- yeah, like you could say that like yeah, like you, I don't know, you regret this, you regret that, but at the end of the day, like they were all valuable lessons- Yeah ... to like- 

[01:18:26] Denis: Yeah, but that, I talked to Asli about that, like human beings are very interesting creatures where, like I can find the positive in anything.

[01:18:33] I can find a learning lesson in pretty much anything. That's my, for example, my, uh, motto, philosophy, and I enjoy it because I think it's a very resilient thing because I can never, like I never get depressed as a result. But even when, but I, but there's a balancing act, a fine line, right, between just b- finding glass half full in everything, and kinda just being almost like, you know, like, "Oh," like people like say, "Oh, it was supposed to happen this way, it's supposed to happen this way."

[01:18:55] My challenge, even though I believe in that to some degree, my challenge is like, well, is it, was it supposed to happen that way? I'm not talking specifically about him, just like in general, right? Or did it happen because like we were dumb about something, and now that it happened we can extract, 'cause you can extract value- Well, no, that's a very, 

[01:19:12] Eldar: that's a very good question.

[01:19:13] Yeah. 

[01:19:13] Denis: Yeah. 

[01:19:14] Eldar: And I think that if you really examine it, you'll find the answer to that. 

[01:19:17] Denis: Yeah. But that's a, I feel like 

[01:19:18] Eldar: that's a topic- Yeah, like but like- ... another topic, you know what I 

[01:19:20] Toliy: mean? Y- y- yeah, but 

[01:19:21] Denis: it's hard, I think- That's a big 

[01:19:21] Eldar: topic. It 

[01:19:22] Toliy: is ... yeah, but I think it's hard to, to, to also like I don't know, like think, think in that kind of way because like there's also no way that you can guarantee that like like you wouldn't step in shit in like a much worse way or that- For sure

[01:19:35] like things would go like- 100%, yeah ... if you said that like, hey- Completely haywire ... you go back in time, you remove this, and actually everything just ends up being like 10X better, but like no one can guarantee you- Yeah, but I guess- ... no one can know that, right? ... that's the beauty, that's the curse of life. Is that, is that Dennis's, is that Dennis's favorite world to live in?

[01:19:46] But yeah- Of what? Of what? ... potentially. Of what? Well, like the, like- Replay. Yeah, the re- yeah, the r- you entertain like the replay, 

[01:19:46] Eldar: like if this, then that

[01:19:57] w- like- No, 

[01:19:58] Denis: not- And like- You think that. See, that's a miscon- I don't th- no. I don't. So then why, why 

[01:20:02] Eldar: ask that question in that way? 

[01:20:05] Denis: Well, because I mean, it's the history of his, of, uh, all of, like for example, my... I still want you to answer the question by the way. I will answer, yeah. Yeah. But like for me, m- uh, 10 years of 50 businesses, bullshit, all this stuff we and Asli talked about it recently, like there's one side that's like, this was actually the topic where I was saying like, she's like, "You see, like but you learn so much and now, now you, when these fires happen you're able to operate calmly and deal with it."

[01:20:27] And I'm like, "Yeah, it's true, and I'm happy where I'm at and I'm happy where, what happened, like where I'm at currently," but like if I'm being honest with myself, like- Did I spend 10 years, like, bullshitting and, and just kinda, like, failure to launch on anything and fear of failure- Yeah, but who did?

[01:20:44] You're 

[01:20:44] Eldar: under the impression that the same person was from back then as now? 

[01:20:47] Denis: Right. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You can- Those two people are completely different people 

[01:20:49] Eldar: Yeah, 

[01:20:49] Denis: it's 

[01:20:49] Eldar: also that. It's also not, like, respecting the process of things, like- 

[01:20:52] Denis: I agree ... like, at all I, uh, and that's- You know? There's the two schools of thought that you could look at, and I dabble in both of them, where it's like I could look at it and be like, "Hey, that's the process, and that led me to where I needed to be."

[01:21:01] But the other part is, is like, eh- No, but what, what are the facts? Forget about the school of thought ... you have to, like, give myself a lot of excuses, you know what I mean? Like, could this have happened eight fucking years ago? 

[01:21:09] Eldar: Eight years ago. No, it couldn't. Yeah, it couldn't. Like, 

[01:21:10] Toliy: I don't 

[01:21:11] Denis: know, I mean, but D, like- You know, like- 

[01:21:13] Toliy: Yeah, 

[01:21:13] Eldar: but, 

[01:21:13] Toliy: yeah, it's an impossible, like, scenario.

[01:21:17] Eldar: You even said it yourself. You're like, "Look after a while, like, I've realized certain things that I came to a conclusion that I wanna do things properly." You said that on the last podcast. You said, 

[01:21:25] Toliy: like, "Look-" Yeah. You're saying I probably wouldn't have done it properly back then. 

[01:21:27] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:21:28] Toliy: Well, no, you, you- Well, you didn't

[01:21:29] you, you factually did not want to do things properly. 

[01:21:31] Eldar: And 

[01:21:31] Toliy: you 

[01:21:31] Eldar: didn't. 

[01:21:32] Toliy: You wanna do, do the least to get the most. Like, like- Yeah. Right 

[01:21:36] Denis: I wanna do it fast. Yeah, I wanted to get it as quick 

[01:21:37] Toliy: as

[01:21:40] possible. Yeah. Right? That, that, that was fundamentally- The shortcuts, the lies, the everything ... yeah, yeah. That was fundamentally who you- Incorrect ... who you, uh like were. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So, like, you were then going to get results based off of that. But 

[01:21:48] Denis: then how you explain the cats who, you know, they still become successful even though they're dirtbags, you 

[01:21:53] Toliy: know?

[01:21:53] Like who? 

[01:21:54] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:21:54] Toliy: What do 

[01:21:55] Denis: you 

[01:21:56] Toliy: mean, like who? What's successful? I'm ta- so, so, so, like- Uh, entertainment? No, no, who? 

[01:21:57] Denis: Business, right? Who? Like, not, not overall. Yeah. What do you mean, like who? Like a lot of people. Andrew, Andrew Ta- Ta- Well, 

[01:22:03] Toliy: like who, though? Uh, Tate. What do you mean? A lot of people, you know? Andrew Tate.

[01:22:03] Who do you know that's a uh, uh, who do you know who's a successful dirtbag? 

[01:22:08] Denis: I could, uh, I can't, I can't, I, like I'm saying, like- Like, who do you look up 

[01:22:11] Toliy: to? Yeah. 

[01:22:12] Denis: No, no, no. Like, for ex- well, I mean, there's pl- that's, uh, uh, let's not go there. What I'm saying is, like, for example, since we're just talking about the Mike's kinda different scenarios, Mike had a point where I remember, like, the, the La- the Lambo days, right?

[01:22:24] Mike: The highlight of my career. 

[01:22:25] Denis: Now you guys are saying that, like, actually that was a bad time, right? No. No, that was the good times. Like he's s- s- But we're not saying that ... 

[01:22:31] Toliy: successful- Well, well, no, D- Deep, I think it's, I think it's important to- ... on paper for that period. That was the best time ... to, like, w- I think it's important to to address what you were saying when you're saying that, like, oh, someone's a dirtbag, but they're successful, right?

[01:22:40] Yeah. Like, like what, what happens if I were to say, like, " hey, D, like, it- You have to 

[01:22:43] Denis: define success. It, 

[01:22:44] Toliy: well, yeah, f- well, that's one thing. You like to define words. What if I could- I notice. Yes. What if I also say that

[01:22:59] Why don't you just drop Delilah and honestly you'll just have more, more money. You'll be more successful. 

[01:23:06] Denis: Oh, yeah. 

[01:23:07] I definitely would have more 

[01:23:08] Toliy: money, that's for sure. O- okay. Right? The, the- A 

[01:23:10] Denis: lot more money. 

[01:23:11] Toliy: Would, would the business person, that business person, whoever it, like, let's just make make, like, you know, 

[01:23:17] Mike: right?

[01:23:17] Dennis with three Ms. 

[01:23:18] Toliy: Yes. That- ... that person, right? Like the crazy millionaire or whoever, they might be like, "Yeah, man, like, your family's kind of dead weight. Not really bringing in any revenue here," right? "Why don't we drop them? You're gonna have more, more money." you have more shit," right? "You have a nicer car," right?

[01:23:35] Like, "Why don't you drop them?" 

[01:23:38] You probably, like, not probably, you obviously can be like, well, y- like, I don't think that you can argue that you probably have more money, right? 

[01:23:45] Denis: Of course. 

[01:23:46] Toliy: But would you be more successful? 

[01:23:48] Denis: On bus- I mean, you, we, we, we making it too, um- 

[01:23:52] Toliy: No, but that, no, but that's the reality of it, right?

[01:23:58] For, for-profit they're draining the pockets right now, the, the- Of course ... Venice, 

[01:24:01] Denis: right? Right. But that's what I'm saying, you have to define success. What I was talking 

[01:24:04] Toliy: about was just that. Well, well, exactly. I think that's what we're trying to do. That, that, that's what we're saying. I think it's important to keep that in mind because of, like, you're, you're saying that dirt bag, who's successful, well, that dirt bag is not successful.

[01:24:14] On whose standards is he successful? Yeah, 

[01:24:16] Denis: yeah. 

[01:24:16] Toliy: On the for-profit pure guy like that, yes. But then that for-profit pure guy's gonna say, like, "Yo, drop your daughter, drop your wife. They're just expenses." 

[01:24:24] Denis: Yeah. No, for sure. They're dead weight. That's, and that's, I guess that's the beauty and the, the curse of life- Right

[01:24:29] is that you can't really- 

[01:24:31] Toliy: Or, or take, take this. Like, hey, like we're gonna triple your money, but you have to ban them. 

[01:24:35] Denis: Yeah. 

[01:24:36] Toliy: That's not gonna make you successful, probably feel successful inside, right? 

[01:24:40] Yeah, yeah. But if you could say, like, "Hey, keep them and do things the right way." 

[01:24:44] Denis: Unlike the thing of we'll keep them for half the week and- Yeah.

[01:24:46] Toliy: and then we cut them. Yeah. And you keep them, you, you, like, trip- triple your revenue, and you do things the right way, well, maybe then you would define that to be, like, successful then, right? But if I said, "Hey, drop them. Three X your money," you probably wouldn't agree that that's successful. 

[01:25:00] Denis: Yeah.

[01:25:00] Yeah, I mean, no, for sure. I think the answer is probably- Well, that depends on the, the type of 

[01:25:03] Toliy: relationship that he has. Well, that, that's what I'm saying. He's saying that dirt bag, who's successful, but again, I would say that that dirt bag would say, like, "Yo, drop the kid and drop the wife.

[01:25:12] They're, they're dead weight." Yeah. Right? Correct. In a for-profit scenario here. 

[01:25:15] Eldar: Correct. 

[01:25:15] Toliy: They're a success. 

[01:25:16] Eldar: You're saying 

[01:25:16] Denis: everything's supposed to happen is supposed to happen. That's 

[01:25:18] Eldar: your philosophy, right? Oh, bro. Oh, oh, oh, no, bro. I think that, I think that we underestimate or, like, we commit sin against the design if we ever curse it.

[01:25:26] Denis: You actually said, I've still, it stuck with me. Now that I remember, it's in, in relation to this. Back in the day, you said, like, I think at one point I was having these conversations with you. This is maybe seven, eight years ago, right in the middle of it all, and I'm like, "Why can't I fucking figure this shit?"

[01:25:41] Whatever it is, right? Whatever the fucking soup of the business of the day was. And you said, like, "Maybe the universe is protecting you from success." 

[01:25:50] And I was like, "Ah," you know? Mm-hmm. You know? But it's interesting, right? 'Cause like, yeah, who knows, right? If I got it back then, I would've done something else bad, yeah. Like that. Awesome. Yeah. 

[01:26:07] Mike: You could've been a Tate. Yeah. 

[01:26:09] Denis: Yeah. 

[01:26:09] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah, again, it's, it like your values will, like, always come out in whatever that you're, like, succ- succ- successful in, right? So if you're, like, a piece of shit and you get a lot of money, you're not just gonna magically be a good person.

[01:26:25] You're gonna be- Yeah, you're a bad shit, yeah ... more of your pieces of shitness is going to to come out. 

[01:26:30] Denis: Yeah. 

[01:26:30] Toliy: You know? So yeah, again, like, I think it's very dangerous to look at people that, you know, can make a lot of money or that, like, have that, that big-ass house or that nice car- Yeah ... and say that they're successful because you, you could quickly find out, like, "Oh wow, they talk like that to their wife?"

[01:26:48] Eldar: No, 

[01:26:48] Toliy: for sure. "Oh, they treat their kids like this?" For sure. 

[01:26:50] Eldar: Yeah. "

[01:26:50] Toliy: Oh, they do that to their parents?" And you'll be like, "Oh no, I don't wanna be that guy." 

[01:26:55] Eldar: Yeah. Was Britney Spears, uh, successful or no? 

[01:26:58] Yo, that broad is wild, yo. 

[01:26:59] Toliy: Right? 

[01:27:00] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:27:00] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:27:01] Denis: Yeah. So the answer is- 

[01:27:03] Mike: Oh, you want me to answer it? ... you're 

[01:27:04] Denis: doing it regret.

[01:27:04] Of course. But, you know. 

[01:27:06] Mike: I'm, I, how, how is it possible to regret something- 

[01:27:08] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:27:09] Mike: that I no, I don't have a choice in? 

[01:27:11] Eldar: I like that. 

[01:27:13] Denis: All right. 

[01:27:13] Eldar: You're gonna 

[01:27:14] Denis: have- Hmm ... 

[01:27:14] Eldar: hear 

[01:27:14] Toliy: more and more James answers from Mike it sounds like, 

[01:27:16] Denis: right? Yeah. I, wow, that's a good point good way of putting it. Mm-hmm. 

[01:27:20] Toliy: Yeah, I feel like- 

[01:27:21] Denis: I can't get none of that out of you 

[01:27:22] Toliy: guys

[01:27:22] auto- automatically- ... if, if you know better you will do better. That, that's just across the board, right? 

[01:27:26] Eldar: Okay, Sock. You know? 

[01:27:27] Toliy: Sock. 

[01:27:28] Mike: Yeah. Yeah, I, I don't think it's... Yeah, it couldn't have went any other way. I agree. I agree. 

[01:27:33] Eldar: Yeah. It couldn't have what? 

[01:27:34] Mike: It couldn't have went any other way- Yeah ... to get to where I got.

[01:27:37] And it can't go any other way and- 

[01:27:38] Eldar: Are you under the... Yeah, 

[01:27:39] Mike: sorry ... to where I'm gonna go. 

[01:27:41] Eldar: Are you under the impression that, like, who we are right now, we're putting out into the world w- ourselves, and we're gonna get something that's gonna completely not reflective of who we are? 

[01:27:53] Denis: Well, I mean, what you talking about?

[01:27:55] Laws of, laws of manifestation, right? 

[01:27:57] Toliy: No, no no. It, the- 

[01:28:00] Denis: Well, yeah, I think we 

[01:28:00] Toliy: are ... 

[01:28:00] Denis: no, it's like the 

[01:28:01] Toliy: laws of reality. 

[01:28:02] Denis: Yeah. 

[01:28:02] Toliy: Right? Yeah. 

[01:28:03] Denis: The laws of gravity. 

[01:28:04] Toliy: The person that has no idea, for example, how to build a business is not just gonna build a business. 

[01:28:08] Denis: Yeah. 

[01:28:08] Toliy: It, it's not they're gonna just not build a business.

[01:28:10] It's gonna make sense. Yeah, 

[01:28:11] Denis: but I could argue- Right? I, I agree with it. You, you guys are right, of course, but that argument I would say, when we were talking about this topic, would be like there's n- she's like, "Wow, you learn..." Like, long story short, I know that what I learned eight, nine years ago, a lot of it's, like it's the same.

[01:28:28] I learned it. It was already learned. 

[01:28:30] Mike: Well, that's 

[01:28:32] Denis: a different conversation. Am I, am I the- I'm using those things that I learned eight, nine years ago ... 

[01:28:34] Mike: you know. Okay. Thought about it. What did I do with the sock? 

[01:28:36] Denis: Yeah. So- There's no, there's, like- There, there's no what, though? ... the only thing that changed was one fabric.

[01:28:41] Mike: No, 

[01:28:41] Toliy: but 

[01:28:41] Denis: that's like- Which is your favorite 

[01:28:42] Toliy: fabric. No, but 

[01:28:42] Mike: that's like 

[01:28:42] Toliy: an arrogant way to 

[01:28:43] Denis: look at it. I deployed discipline. I deployed structure. And instead of funneling all that- But you 

[01:28:49] Toliy: missed the whole point, then, bro ... 

[01:28:50] Denis: knowledge. 

[01:28:50] Toliy: Yeah, I think you missed the whole point. Maybe. Like, that, that's like an arrogant like a crazy arrogant take to like make.

[01:28:59] You're basically saying that, like, "Hey, th- people would just be a lot better if like right away from a young age we just put them in prison, and we just force them to do shit," right? 

[01:29:10] Denis: That's not what I said. 

[01:29:11] Toliy: No, but like, then, then you're saying that, right? If you just had that, that box or that, like that, that discipline, you just had that one thing.

[01:29:19] It has 

[01:29:19] Denis: to be, it has to be curated discipline. 

[01:29:21] Toliy: Well- Curated structure. Well- It's not just like- Well, no, sure, but I think that if you- ... find a way ... if you untangle everything that 

[01:29:26] Denis: happened- Why do we put kids in, uh, sports? 

[01:29:28] Toliy: Well, no. And teaching them 

[01:29:28] Denis: what? 

[01:29:29] Toliy: Well, no, I'm, no, I'm, I'm saying that, like, if you untangle everything that happened, it was a lot.

[01:29:34] It wasn't just like, oh, one thing. 

[01:29:36] Denis: Yeah, but- You could break it down to a few things. 

[01:29:41] Toliy: I- 

[01:29:41] Eldar: Simple as that ... you, you, if you want- This is crazy ... if you wanna minimize it to a few things, sure. Yeah. But I don't think- If you minimize it, yeah ... you're right about your assessment. 

[01:29:47] Denis: If you, if the assessment was like, hey, what would I have done back then if I...

[01:29:51] I probably would've done more stupid shit. Right now I'm much, because I have responsibilities, I got, like, I I'm balanced by my f- my family. But so that part I agree with you guys on. But when it comes to the actual act of I had this dream and, and I couldn't bring it to fruition. I knew all the, what needed to happen to get it there.

[01:30:12] Eldar: What was the, 

[01:30:13] Denis: what was the magic in- But I just 

[01:30:14] Eldar: kept looking at it ... what, what was the magic ingredient? 

[01:30:16] Denis: Well, I'm telling you. That nothing cha- along the journey, I got to kind of depl- I had decisions. For example, like, be m- like, I, I don't spend money on myself. It's all on my, on my- Mm-hmm ... on my home girls.

[01:30:30] You know what I mean? 

[01:30:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:30:31] Denis: And I see, and I can see it, and, like, there's no desire to, like, to ball out or what. It's like, whatever's needed is what I... Like, I'm the... I provide for these people and I enjoy that role, which I never... It was like, it's fascinating to me to sometimes look back on myself.

[01:30:46] I'm like, whoa, I'm like oh, I run this. I kind of, I carry this whole ship and it's such a, like, a f- cool feeling. Like, they, like, I get to, I get to help these people. This is this... Like, I get to help them in this capacity, and then they help me with showing me love, showing me care, and, like, that's my role and I enjoy it.

[01:31:05] So what I'm trying to say is- I've been able to channel whatever's happening into a positive in that sense. That's for sure. Maybe eight years ago, that guy would've channeled it into prostitutes or God knows what. You know what I mean? Drugs. Mm-hmm. Who knows, right? Uh, but what I'm saying is, if you ask, like, what changed fundamentally from the act- from the result, right, there was- 

[01:31:25] Eldar: Hold on.

[01:31:25] You said y- you could identify very few things and, like- 

[01:31:28] Denis: Yeah ... 

[01:31:29] Eldar: that actually sparked this, this change, this fundamental change in you, you said. So what was th- those magic ingredients that you're talking about? 

[01:31:36] Denis: I, I- That- ... got set up en- enough. I got fed up with myself, and the... There was a pressure where it was a very specific moment.

[01:31:46] You know, I, I left you guys at that time, the letterfront. I was... You know, meaning, like, I stopped working here. And then Asley just moved here. I had to pay rent. Was I, I making enough? Uber, yeah, yeah. More 

[01:31:58] Eldar: pressure. 

[01:31:58] Denis: And there was, like, a v- I l- I knew. I'm like, "Yo, you gotta..." Every day I was waking up doing the same shit.

[01:32:03] Even, again, you see here's an ex- an interesting example of my sh- my other habits of, like, always kinda getting by the skin of my teeth. I leave here. Mm-hmm. I start working kinda more full-time Uber, but it... I'm like, "All right. I'm just gonna work full-time Uber while I figure out the rest." I still wasn't doing it.

[01:32:19] Asley magically gets a great paying job as a babysitter, and we're able to leverage her income and my income, and I get to, again, by the skin of my teeth, like, almost the, the more of the financial pressure was put on her for, like, a good, like, almost a year of, like... I got to kinda, like... I got to chill. I got to, "Ah, I'll sit around.

[01:32:39] I'll figure it out. I'll see what I... Yeah, let me be- Yo, taking it easy ... let me take two weeks. Let me take two weeks," you know. Yeah, yeah. She's over there hustling babysitting a bunch of gremlins. 

[01:32:48] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:32:49] Denis: Hustling eight hours a day, and I'm chilling. I'm, "I, I'm fi- I, I'll figure it out. I just need to take my time.

[01:32:54] I'm just gonna..." And then that started running dry because she started being unhappy or whatever with her role. And then, like, a- and then there was that pressure of, like, you better figure it out. And so I sat. There was a very specific five weeks I sat- 

[01:33:08] Toliy: Mm-hmm ... 

[01:33:08] Denis: and I researched every single option that I could do- Mm-hmm

[01:33:11] of ideas. That's when you saw me on the ladder, shit like that. Remember? 

[01:33:14] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:33:15] Denis: And I'm like, "You're gonna sit eight hours a day until you figure it out, and then you're gonna choose one thing, and you're gonna go all in on it." And I did that for a specific five weeks, and I forced myself. I had a eight-hour shift.

[01:33:26] I timed it because I couldn't get myself to... I was just like, "Ah, I'll do it tomorrow, do it tomorrow." I was lazy. And then because of that five weeks, my, that one thing came, which is what I'm doing now for three and a half years, and then that's it. And then I said, all right this feels right. This checks enough boxes.

[01:33:43] Nothing's gonna be perfect. Jump the hell in 'cause you got a, you got a wife here, you got responsibilities. So responsibilities creeped in. 

[01:33:49] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:33:50] Denis: But I'm... But it's a blessing that they did. If I didn't have that pressure of the responsibilities, the so-called prison, let's say, right? Ideally, I would just love to sit at my parents' house and and n- you know, that shit was nice.

[01:34:02] You know what I mean? Like, they... Sergei took care of it. You know what I mean? I'm chilling. But that pressure force- pressure makes diamonds, as they say- Mm-hmm ... to use a big bullshit analogy, right? Yeah. That you like. Um- And then it just went. I used that, and then I funneled that again into structure of, like, you're gonna, you're gonna have a, a actual full day.

[01:34:22] You're not gonna just bullshit here at 2:00 AM to 3:00 AM real quick, do some bullshit. You're gonna wake up, and you're gonna do it, and you're gonna repeat that shit every single day. I don't give a... And, like, I had timers and all this stuff, and that structure ignited- Results ... results. So, like, fundamentally, yes, you can argue that, like, that Dennis from eight years ago maybe would have done stupid shit with it, but what I'm talking about just from point A to point B, which was point A was doing nothing, and point B was, hey, here's that dream.

[01:34:51] What only thing that stayed in the, stood in the way was too much yapping, too much chilling, too much luxury, too much comfort zone. Mm-hmm. Parents' house, chilling, everything's... And you're just year after year after- I felt like I was, I was, like, rotting. Mm. I was rotting. And it only, ironically, I when Asley came about, that pressure, it was uncomfortable.

[01:35:11] I loved her, but it was uncomfortable. Rent's due. Mm-hmm. I can't afford this rent. Uber's not making enough. Uber's going down. I'm making seven bucks an hour Ubering at that time. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like, what? They're sitting there, it's 2:00 AM, delivering people's dirty McDonald's for $2.50. And you, you gotta f- when you uncomfortable enough, you face yourself, and you're like, "Yo, create some structure for yourself.

[01:35:33] You know what to do. We fucking learned this shit for eight years. Just do it because this is your last shot. Otherwise, you gotta go do... You gotta go, go get a job." Mm-hmm. "You're gonna be fucked up." Like, shit is, there's no more, there's n- and you ain't got nothing. You got no degree. Nobody- you got nothing.

[01:35:47] You're not social. You don't have no connections. Social. You know what I mean? It's a wrap for you, right? It's either now or never, and that created momentum. I did what I needed to do, and then the second wave of pressure came in. I was m- I started making some cash, but, like, I was still Ubering at the time.

[01:36:03] Kind of 50/50. I took a little salary, and then a second wave of pressure came in, which, again, you could look at as, like, oh, that's, like, you know, I'm prisoning myself. But Asley was pregnant, and there was a date where she was retiring. She's like, "Yo, I'm not working past this amount, past, past this date."

[01:36:20] And the pressure was to make the full amount that was needed for the household, which for me at the time was unimaginable. Mm-hmm. It was like, there's, like, I'm, I'm pulling, like, 1,000 bucks from the business. You know what I mean? I'm like, 'cause I had comfort, too. It's like, all right, we kinda got this thing going.

[01:36:35] I'm taking my time, but she's still working. We're good. Mm-hmm. And I'm still doing a little Uber at the time. And then it was like, "Yo, you gotta figure out all this." and that second wave of pressure came, and I'm like, all right, deploy some structure, deploy some discipline. Balance, I was always about balance discipline.

[01:36:51] Mm-hmm. I put the elder hat on even though you don't see it. And I always was about like, hey, I'm gonna create structure for myself and systems, but I'm also gonna rest, I'm also gonna sleep, I'm also gonna enjoy my life. I'm also gonna... You know what I mean? Like I still took care of myself along the way.

[01:37:05] But without that pressure, without some of those systems, nothing happens. And I look back still, I'm like, how did that ha- like how... And it was always like, ah, that makes sense. Like, I just, day after day you just kinda keep doing the same shit and then it happens. But if I just sat there, I probably wouldn't...

[01:37:21] My w- no wife, no nothing, like just like fucking... But at least I would've been comfortable, you know what I mean? Uh, I, I would've been... Sergey and Natalie would've still been hooking me up, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. I don't know. I, I don't know, I guess I went on a tangent here. But like you talking about, well, my, my, my, to circle back to that, I know we can look at the kind of, the details of what the person could've been back then, but like fundamentally- No, but, but yeah, 

[01:37:43] Eldar: no

[01:37:44] the point, the point even is 

[01:37:44] Denis: that- 

[01:37:44] Eldar: But 

[01:37:44] Denis: you, 

[01:37:44] Eldar: you mentioned, you mentioned a couple of things. You mentioned the fact that you had pressure. You had, you had mentioned time, right? Like look, she gave you a deadline. 

[01:37:53] Denis: Yeah. 

[01:37:53] Eldar: Right? That was like a, "Hey, put up or shut up." 

[01:37:55] Denis: But you can look at that as a bad thing.

[01:37:57] You know what I 

[01:37:58] Eldar: mean? Well, I mean, you can look at whichever way, but th- those are the facts of what happened. 

[01:38:01] Uh, you had the knowledge from prior to, to actually execute you said, and you just needed to sit down and do it. 

[01:38:07] Denis: When nobody puts my feet to the fire- ... nothing happens. 

[01:38:10] And I wish that wasn't the case.

[01:38:13] I wish discipline wasn't needed. 

[01:38:16] I wish I could naturally, you know what I mean? But through that, what happens is I, like for example, I hated my job in the beginning All day long sitting, recruiting, talking to people, listening to people bullshit me on r- on interviews, all this stuff. I was like, "Bro," like I couldn't wait to like outsource that part.

[01:38:33] And then I did for a while, and now I'm, and now I s- now I don't outsource. Like, I do it all. I have a, like my... I have help, but like I do it all. And now through that I realize like, ah, you learn to love... In that movie, you guys like that movie with the gas station guy. 

[01:38:51] Eldar: Peaceful Warrior. 

[01:38:52] Denis: He said it at the ga- He's like, "Why you keep doing this?"

[01:38:54] Or some shit. Mm-hmm. He's like, "You..." There was some moments there, but he said something specific. He's like, "You learn to love it in the midst of the action." Something. Don't quote me. Roughly. 

[01:39:03] Eldar: No, I'm not gonna quote you. 

[01:39:04] Denis: He did say it. Uh. I'll pull it up. There was another element where he's, she kept pressuring him.

[01:39:08] He talked 

[01:39:08] Eldar: about service. 

[01:39:09] Denis: Like, "Why you do..." Yes. It's service. There's no great... Yes. Thank you. There's no- There's never 

[01:39:12] Eldar: greater purpose than service ... 

[01:39:13] Denis: service of others, right? Yeah. 

[01:39:14] Eldar: Service to 

[01:39:14] Denis: others. But that was profound because he's looking at him like, "Yo, you a loser. You're pumping gas." 

[01:39:18] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:39:19] Denis: You know? 

[01:39:19] Eldar: Mm-hmm.

[01:39:20] Denis: But he's looking at him, my man, like- 

[01:39:21] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:39:21] Denis: it don't matter what I do. 

[01:39:22] Eldar: It doesn't matter, yeah. 

[01:39:23] Denis: If I do it with the right intention- 

[01:39:25] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:39:25] Denis: it's a beautiful thing. If I help others, a beautiful thing. Yeah. And then like, so what I'm trying to say is like, then you realize through the action, you find the beauty in it.

[01:39:33] That's what we humans are able to find the beauty in that. But like the point is, you gotta, you gotta get the reels rolling somehow, and unless you're fucking everything perfectly aligns, you need to get pushed a little bit. And I thank God for the prisons that I was put into, because without them I'd still be the same fucking guy just fucking sitting there.

[01:39:53] I felt like I was rotting, bro. Like physically just ro- Like I had all the answers in me. 

[01:39:59] Eldar: Yeah. But all those- And- ... all those things still led you to this, right? Like all the things that you- Sure ... you were, the way you were led you to this. It did. No, but the way 

[01:40:07] Mike: he said it- And that's- ... he said, "Thank God."

[01:40:08] Mm-hmm. You know? It's like he's not taking, he's saying it's something that's o- outside of him. 

[01:40:13] Eldar: But it's 

[01:40:13] Mike: also a scenario 

[01:40:14] Eldar: where like- He's not saying, "Well-" ... he's the one who created that. Like- 

[01:40:16] Mike: He's the g- he's the god of... 

[01:40:17] Eldar: Oh. 

[01:40:18] Mike: He's the god of his own creation- But- ... but he's not looking at it that way- Yeah

[01:40:21] where he created this thing. Yeah. And I think that's where the disconnect is, and that's why he's like, uh- 

[01:40:26] Eldar: Yeah. He's like kind of attributing it to like a mere chance. 

[01:40:29] Mike: Yeah, yeah. A chance. 

[01:40:30] Eldar: Yeah. But the thing is, he's the one who... He was the... Let's just say maybe he was a bad culprit. Shit, bro. But nonetheless, he was- You were 

[01:40:34] Mike: the criminal that robbed your own banks, huh?

[01:40:38] Toliy: No, but it's also a, I, I, I and I think this goes for all of us, right? 

[01:40:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:40:43] Toliy: For these kinds of things. Isn't the jury still out? 

[01:40:47] Eldar: The jury's definitely still out Well, 100%. Yeah. But that carries a lot on ev- everybody and everything Well, no, but no- On everything 

[01:40:51] Toliy: for... Yeah No, no, but that's true, right? Yeah.

[01:40:51] And I'm saying that, like, um, like, the, 

[01:40:52] Eldar: uh

[01:41:00] Toliy: That, like, saying and that phrase that we'll see- 

[01:41:03] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:41:03] Toliy: and that, that's like a forever thing, right? Depending on how you- Of course. 

[01:41:06] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:41:06] Toliy: maintain things, how you go about things. Of course. Right? Because- 

[01:41:09] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:41:10] Toliy: If your success derived from, for example, like a prison, I feel like, and good things, for example, let's just say happened from it, to, to...

[01:41:19] Yeah, to me it's like a we'll see scenario, right? 

[01:41:21] Eldar: Y- yeah, but that's for everything, though, regardless, good or bad. 

[01:41:25] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:41:26] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:41:26] Toliy: Yes. That's also why I feel like on on, on everybody in life, like the maintenance of your human being-ness, right? And, like- Of, yeah, yeah ... who you are- Yeah ... and how you go about things.

[01:41:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:41:38] Toliy: That is like, like it's not just like a breakthrough and that's it, yeah. It's like a forever You can't subscribe to not learning anymore, right? Yeah. And if you say that, like, you made it or you did something, and you have that kind of attitude, right? 

[01:41:53] Eldar: So you, you, you have a, you have a problem with, with how he's phrasing it?

[01:41:57] Toliy: Well, 

[01:41:57] Eldar: I mean, like you- Like, "I made it, I, I succeeded." 

[01:42:01] Mike: Yeah, you would have to ask him does he feel like he's... Like, yeah, the thing is you al- like, I think you always feel like you made it to a certain point. See- But the question is you always feel like, hey, there's still more. Well, I- Like, I- I've felt like, uh, I think we all have probably felt the same way, like, hey, you overcame one thing, but it's not the end of the road.

[01:42:18] Yes. You ne- well, you never reach the end of the road. Yeah. But it's like a milestone where you can celebrate certain things because this may be a step up for him. It was a big breakthrough. Well, well, well, yes, but I think that- It may be a step up from him, and potentially his next step, maybe he will not use discipline- 

[01:42:33] Toliy: Well-

[01:42:33] Mike: and he'll use something else to be successful and actually be successful and be happy. 

[01:42:37] Toliy: So I don't know if you cannot use that same thing because, like just, like, the story of, for example, kids, right? We all have the association of, like, this equals this, right? And, like, this is how we operate. So, so, like- Yeah, of course you-

[01:42:50] to me, like- 

[01:42:50] Mike: Of course you can. 

[01:42:51] Toliy: Yeah. To to me I feel like the the attitude of making it or that any of that, I think, like, the only thing that you can be, I think I think at least, the only things that you can be proud about, I think, or have that kind of attitude towards is things that are I feel like are intrinsically forever good no matter what.

[01:43:17] Like, for example, right? You could be proud about- I'm giving you two 

[01:43:20] Eldar: examples here. 

[01:43:21] Toliy: Yeah, yeah, fine. Two. Yes, give it to me. Two. I, I was, I was only- Make them count ... gonna actually say two. 

[01:43:24] Eldar: Oh, yeah. 

[01:43:26] Toliy: Well, so one, one important one- Okay ... right, which I was trying to preach un- to, to Antonio at the rec, right?

[01:43:31] Yes. You could say that, like, "Hey, I'm really proud of myself because I'm accountable," for example. 

[01:43:36] If you have that kind of praise and that you're, you're happy with that kind of thing, that means that you value, for example, a- A 

[01:43:43] virtue ... 

[01:43:44] a virtue, right? Okay. And I think that if you operate out of that and that's what you value, that's a forever system, that's a forever thing that you can forever draw en- energy from and- Yeah

[01:43:56] And value from. And 

[01:43:57] Eldar: you know 

[01:43:58] Toliy: what? Yeah. And, 

[01:43:58] Eldar: uh, let me- 

[01:43:58] Toliy: Sure ... let me stop you right there. Yeah. Let me stop you right there. 

[01:44:00] Eldar: But you know what? If you actually value the virtue of liv- be- being accountable or being honest, right, I'm not sure if you ever need to vocalize it. No, you don't. But I'm- No, but I also think that-

[01:44:12] saying that, like, if you're going to 

[01:44:13] Toliy: say that, that to me, you better come from that place and not the place of, like of, for example, like, discipline. 'Cause I don't know if you can continue to go into that way and do things that kind of way and derive good things out of it. 

[01:44:27] Mike: But again- My, my, I don't-

[01:44:27] accountability, uh, or any, an- I think ma- ma- many things that are virtuous are only locked or unlocked to a certain point. You can only be accountable for things that you are aware of. If you s- if you're not aware of things that are not serving you, that you have a bad relationship with, you cannot be accountable for them because you don't know about, about them.

[01:44:45] No, 

[01:44:45] Eldar: no. Well, no, but give an example. No, that's what I'm saying. What do you mean by that? Like- give an example of what you're aware of that you- 

[01:44:51] Mike: Like if you have some bad behavior or some bad habits or some bad- Uh-huh ... Things that you do release system- Yeah ... but you obv- you obviously don't know that you're doing them, you're not aware of them, you can't be accountable for them.

[01:45:02] Eldar: No, no, no, wait a second. 

[01:45:03] Mike: You can only be account- No, no, no ... you can only take accountability for things that you know. No, no, no, I... 

[01:45:06] Eldar: No, no, no. But accountability comes after. 

[01:45:09] Mike: Yeah. So it, 

[01:45:10] Eldar: it's- So 

[01:45:11] Mike: the things that you haven't uncovered, you can't be accountable for them. No, but 

[01:45:14] Eldar: you're not accountable 

[01:45:15] Toliy: for them.

[01:45:15] Mike: So then you can say- You're not ... then you c- then, yeah, you're not accountable, but can you say that you're accountable person? 

[01:45:20] Eldar: Well, yes. Yeah, 

[01:45:21] Mike: what you 

[01:45:22] Eldar: are. Yeah, des- despite the fact that you might make mistake- But that doesn't give you all like a 

[01:45:24] Mike: forever pass that you're always accountable. No, no, no, 

[01:45:26] Eldar: no. No, no, it does.

[01:45:27] Mike: It 

[01:45:27] Eldar: does? It, well, yeah, because if, you could still make mistakes, you could still be wrong about stuff. Mm-hmm. 

[01:45:33] Toliy: But it's how you go about 

[01:45:34] Eldar: them and how you- But it's how you go about- Yeah, what your attitude 

[01:45:36] Toliy: is ... 

[01:45:36] Eldar: accountability comes afterwards. 

[01:45:38] Toliy: So, like, for example, like, I'm- Yeah ... I'm a, a very, very big believer in that, like there, there's definitely times where, like...

[01:45:47] So if I make mistakes, I feel empowered that, like, I have the ability to change these outcomes, I have the ability to change parts of my life and, like I don't feel like I I don't blame anyone, or I don't feel like I need to blame anyone for anything that's not going right. Mm-hmm. I feel a sense of, like, accountability, and I feel that with that I know that I have the ability to do to do particular things.

[01:46:14] Now- Mm-hmm ... will I always do the right thing? No. But if things don't go my way or things me- m- mess up, I could still look back on those things afterwards and, and take accountability for it and not point fingers and not- Mm, 

[01:46:26] Eldar: okay ... 

[01:46:27] Toliy: blame, blame anybody. You can still apply that. Because- Okay, 

[01:46:29] Eldar: I 

[01:46:29] Toliy: understand ... I have that forever value.

[01:46:31] And I think that, like if someone, like, values that and they know, know that, that, like, hey, everything good and bad is their, this, is for example, their, their fault. Mm-hmm. All the good things you have in your life are because of you. Yeah. All the bad things you have, they're also because of you.

[01:46:46] Eldar: Mm-hmm. 

[01:46:46] Toliy: To me, like if, yeah, you, I, I don't think a person, like, needs to talk like that kind of way, but I'm saying that if they do and they look back at their successes, to me real success is, I- like if you are going to talk about it, to talk about those kinds of things, things that are forever, things that, that forever contribute towards you being humble and to you being accountable and you always having that mindset of, like- you're always in that learning and growth mindset, and you really value that, and you understand that there is no point in time where like, "Hey," like, "That's it."

[01:47:26] Yeah. 

[01:47:26] Eldar: Like, 

[01:47:26] Toliy: you're elder, you're 42, like you've hit your cap. Yeah. You're not gonna learn any more lessons. 

[01:47:30] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:47:30] Toliy: If you have that kinda attitude, I would say you're, you're an arrogant bastard, right? 100%. To, to, to say that. 

[01:47:35] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:47:36] Toliy: Right? Because like- 100% ... who are you to, to to talk like that kind of way?

[01:47:40] Yeah. Yeah. But I have a feeling that you obviously don't think that kind of way. 

[01:47:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:47:44] Toliy: You know, obviously. Um- 

[01:47:45] Eldar: No, I'm the fucking man, bro. 

[01:47:47] Toliy: So- What the 

[01:47:47] Eldar: fuck ... 

[01:47:48] Toliy: so- 

[01:47:48] Eldar: None of the shit that we're talking about applies here to me 

[01:47:50] Toliy: Fine. So you will always maintain that attitude, and that to me is the success.

[01:47:57] Yeah. That, that's what you could stand on, and that's what you can be prou- proud on and be successful on because you've actually developed a timeless skill that will always... That you can always draw en- energy from, and that will always- Which is that 

[01:48:09] Eldar: it needs to be talked about, unless- Yes ... unless someone asks you about it.

[01:48:12] Toliy: Yes. 

[01:48:13] Eldar: Then you can teach. 

[01:48:13] Toliy: Yes. So when someone says like, "Hey- Yeah ... what are you most proud on?" someone who's like suc- actually successful is not gonna be like, "Well, I'm proud of the money I made." You know? 

[01:48:24] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:48:24] Toliy: Or, "I'm proud of like the things I have-" Yeah ... or the clothes I have. Yeah. It's the you're probably gonna be more proud of the way that you conduct yourself, the way that you treat others, for example, the attitude that you maintain.

[01:48:37] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:48:38] Toliy: The things that you value, the, um, the hunger you have for philosophy or for like learning. 

[01:48:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:48:43] Toliy: That, th- like that to me would be much better things to, 

[01:48:47] Eldar: uh- To lean on, yeah ... 

[01:48:49] Toliy: to lean on. So that, that's why I said like, you know, in Dennis's case, to me it's we'll see, and to me my, my challenge and my skepticism comes from like I don't know if you can forever lean on that.

[01:49:01] But I know for a fact that you can forever lean on those other things that we were just talking about. That I know. 

[01:49:06] Eldar: Oh, I agree with you there. 

[01:49:08] I agree 

[01:49:08] Toliy: with you there. So that, that, that's why I say it's a we'll see scenario, right? Because then it like you know you put that pressure, you did this.

[01:49:16] What if like there's more pressure, I don't know, to buy a house or to do this? 

[01:49:20] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:49:20] Toliy: Is there things that are gonna slip? Is there like... Or is it- Yeah ... gonna be more working? Is it g- like something has to give in those types of things- Mm ... of discipline, right? 

[01:49:28] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:49:29] Toliy: Something has to give. Something has to be sacrificed.

[01:49:32] With, and with sacrifice comes resentment. 

[01:49:34] Eldar: You're right, and that's not nowhere near success. 

[01:49:37] Toliy: Yeah. And the more pressure that gets put on, that is never forgotten 

[01:49:43] Eldar: Oh 

[01:49:44] Toliy: That's never forgotten 

[01:49:45] Eldar: That's resentment working at its finest 

[01:49:47] Toliy: Yeah. Whoever put that pressure on you- 

[01:49:49] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:49:50] Toliy: you're gonna always remember them.

[01:49:51] Eldar: Remember that shit, yeah. Right? Yeah. 

[01:49:52] Toliy: And when shit hits the fan- 

[01:49:54] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:49:55] Toliy: I think that's the first thing that you'll remember. 

[01:49:58] Eldar: That's true. 

[01:50:00] Toliy: So that, that, that's where I th- I again, in my opinion that it's a dangerous, like, slope. So you think he got it wrong? I don't know. I mean, we'll see, right? But it's also, like, you ha- like, I, I don't know if anyone got it right or wrong.

[01:50:15] I think it's just a matter of what you, like, what do you think? Well, no, because the... 

[01:50:20] Eldar: I think that he do- based on your equation, and based on his equation yeah, I think he got it wrong. No, no, no. I think that he said... Look, ' cause the way he's portraying it, he's portraying it in a, in a very, like, a final way, right?

[01:50:34] Like, this is his, this was his, his thing, and he succeeded, right? If he didn't con- make those conclusions then I can see how... We'll see. 

[01:50:44] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:50:45] Eldar: But because he made a, a very specific conclusion about, you know, the steps that he made, the things that contributed, and now where he's at that's it. 

[01:50:53] Toliy: Yeah, I feel like in- inherently when you feel like you've made it, you've put the guard down of awareness, and you put the guard down of, uh, what potential challenges are coming next, and you don't have that mindset of like valuing awareness, valuing, you know, attention, and valuing what's going on to be better- And learning

[01:51:19] to, yeah, to be better p- to, yeah to, to yearn basically, like, knowledge and wisdom and philosophy- Learning, 

[01:51:25] Eldar: yeah ... 

[01:51:25] Toliy: because you know that there's a, there's gonna be more challenges. 

[01:51:29] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:51:30] Toliy: Things are gonna get harder. 

[01:51:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:51:32] Yeah. 

[01:51:33] Toliy: And yeah, I feel like that, that's a never-ending thing. 

[01:51:37] Mike: Yeah 

[01:51:39] Toliy: And if you don't prepare yourself for that, if you don't go about that in the right ways, I think you set yourself up for failure 

[01:51:45] Mike: But did you have to go...

[01:51:46] Did you ha- did you always know this or it took you time to get there? 

[01:51:50] Toliy: Um- 

[01:51:51] Mike: To believe 

[01:51:52] Toliy: that you believe Well, no, of course. I I definitely didn't al- always- Think like this, yeah ... know, know, know this. Yeah. And I definitely plenty of times put my success and value in particular things and may- maybe particular results or outputs or lack of results or or outputs.

[01:52:12] But yeah, like to, to me now, like, it's like what are you pro- proud of? Like if, if you talk about that, of what you're proud of or what you're happy with, you have to be proud and happy of things that are going to serve you forever. Yeah. 

[01:52:25] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:52:26] Toliy: Right? 

[01:52:26] Mike: Yeah. But that, but that's your, that's your level and your understanding.

[01:52:29] Toliy: Well, that, that's what I'm saying is that like- Yeah ... like- Which I 

[01:52:31] Mike: think we all 

[01:52:32] Toliy: can agree ... ev- everyone has different beliefs and philosophies, and- And 

[01:52:35] Eldar: I think that, I think that based on what he was saying here and asking even the questions that he asked Mike- Oh, yeah ... we cl- we clearly saw a very specific disparity.

[01:52:43] Mike: Yeah 

[01:52:43] Eldar: Where if you really pay attention or obviously he, he wasn't here long enough to know, uh, about Mike's life and Mike's prog- progression and stuff. What he saw as like, oh, you're tired and you're kinda drained, right? It could be misinterpreted for the fact that Mike's actually changed fundamentally certain things about himself in a better way, and that can be mis- mis- misinterpreted- Mm ... by him because- Yeah ... that's not where he's looking from. 

[01:53:08] Toliy: Well, 

[01:53:09] Eldar: that- That's, that's a different level ... that and 

[01:53:09] Toliy: also like you know, like your, your line you say of like, like the causation is not the cor- like- Correlation. Yeah. 

[01:53:18] Eldar: Correlation does not mean causation.

[01:53:18] Just because, you 

[01:53:18] Toliy: know... Yeah. Yeah, like Mike could also be tired because he like, I don't know- 

[01:53:21] Eldar: Yeah, physically 

[01:53:21] Toliy: was ... slept bad or he physically exhausted himself- Mm-hmm 

[01:53:24] Yeah ... or whatever things. It doesn't mean that he's like tired of learning or tired of like some- something else. Or 

[01:53:30] Eldar: of life.

[01:53:30] Toliy: Yeah, of, of life. Yeah. Yeah. Do we all get days where we're like, "Damn," like, you know, like- 

[01:53:35] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:53:35] Toliy: you know, like- You're tired or like, you know, you've had a long- Of 

[01:53:39] Eldar: course. Of 

[01:53:40] Toliy: course ... of, 

[01:53:40] Eldar: of course, but- I think, I think in your case, Michael, you're a lot more measured. Correct? If that's the word to use, right?

[01:53:45] Where you're like, you have a choice in the matter now. 

[01:53:48] Mike: Mm-hmm. 

[01:53:49] Eldar: Where before I think you didn't. 

[01:53:50] Mike: Yeah, I have a choice where I invest my energy into and what I engage into and how I- And 

[01:53:54] Eldar: how you get excited- Well, 

[01:53:56] Mike: yeah ... 

[01:53:56] Eldar: right? And all those things. I think it's like a more, more of a carefulness- Yeah ... 

[01:53:59] Toliy: because you value maybe a level of peace that you don't want to- Correct

[01:54:03] to, 

[01:54:03] Eldar: to, to break. 

[01:54:04] Mike: Yeah. I don't wanna try not to let things interrupt my, like a peaceful- 

[01:54:08] Eldar: Established thing that you 

[01:54:09] Toliy: do have. Yeah. Be- be- before it was like, I think more my, my family's- Oh, Mike was all fucking- Yeah, it, it was more of a s- ... pedal to the, pedal to the 

[01:54:15] Eldar: metal ... 

[01:54:15] Toliy: like selling out for- 

[01:54:16] Eldar: Yes

[01:54:17] Toliy: desires. And now it's like- Yeah ... You know, you could want that, but only under these kind of terms or these kind of things. Yes. Yes. Or like it has to be this kind of way. 

[01:54:25] Eldar: Yeah. He, because now he's- Yeah ... valuing himself more and that's self-esteem. Yeah. That's, uh, confidence. 

[01:54:30] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:54:31] Eldar: That's knowing yourself.

[01:54:33] Toliy: Mm-hmm. 

[01:54:33] Eldar: You know? Yeah. And all those things that make up of now the person that, that you've embodied- Yeah ... for all these past couple years on working on yourself. Yeah. You know? 

[01:54:40] Toliy: Yeah, and if you're willing to give your, yourself up and everything and run away for the next like thing that you're that like you want- 

[01:54:46] Yeah, then like you definitely got it all wrong. 

[01:54:49] Eldar: Yeah. Of course. Potentially, yeah. Correct. Yeah, 

[01:54:54] Toliy: I, I 

[01:54:54] Eldar: definitely think- But, but Mike is right though. I, I think that there's levels to it. 

[01:54:57] Toliy: Yeah. 

[01:54:58] Eldar: And he will only speak about where he's coming from or where he stands And, and also the 

[01:55:06] Mike: big thing is here, I think not...

[01:55:09] I'm not trying to like defend him or anything, just to explain the way I see it. He's coming here because he also wants our approval. He's also seeking that validation. He's still looking for his dad to tell him like, "Hey, I'm proud of you, son." Because he didn't get that. He hasn't gotten that for himself to be proud of himself.

[01:55:25] So he's- Damn ... kinda also like, uh, the behavior is also- Really? You're 

[01:55:29] Eldar: feeling that? 

[01:55:30] Mike: Oh, I think so, yeah. 

[01:55:33] Eldar: Damn. 

[01:55:33] Mike: Why is he talking like, you know, I did this successful. We don't care about money here. We're not like... That's not our currency. He been knew this, but he wants us to f- feel like 

[01:55:44] Eldar: maybe- 

[01:55:44] Mike: Give him the stamp 

[01:55:45] Eldar: of 

[01:55:45] Mike: approval

[01:55:45] give him some flowers because he always mentions like, "Yeah, I was like, uh, doing nothing, just rotting, just like this." He's been-- He mentions this. 

[01:55:53] Eldar: Yeah, but he knows that we, like you said, he knows that we're not the camp of discipline. But 

[01:55:57] Mike: the thing is- No, no, no, no ... that person- So 

[01:55:58] Eldar: we can't- 

[01:55:58] Mike: That person- 

[01:56:00] Eldar: We can't give him 

[01:56:00] Mike: that

[01:56:00] is still 10-year-old Denis who's talking like that. Mm. He hasn't graduated to, in that field, or I'm not sure which field he has. I don't know, obviously don't know what has happened in the past three years. But yeah, in that field, he's still, that behavior, that 10-year-old Denis. Same way you know, sometimes I told you in rock climbing, I still feel like when you would yell at me- 

[01:56:22] Eldar: Yeah

[01:56:22] a 

[01:56:23] Mike: while before, I would feel like a 10-year-old kid because I- Yeah ... never evolved from that state of mind. Like, hey- Yeah ... I never understood what's happening until I understood it and I processed it. Now I'm like, "Oh, okay, I understand what's happening." 

[01:56:33] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:56:34] Mike: And that's, we feel he's still stuck and he still wants to come and he wants his dad to tell him like, "Hey, I'm proud of you.

[01:56:39] You know, you made, you made yourself a career, you have a family, you made some money." 

[01:56:43] Yeah. So that's, that's a big thing, but the, and the we'll see thing is, yeah, we'll see. Maybe he will evolve from this and he will to the next level, which is like he'll have the money, but then he'll realize that it's not that- 

[01:56:58] Toliy: But I think it's tough because it's like if, if you derive success from discipline you're used to applying force to get particular outcomes that you want.

[01:57:10] Mm. And I don't know if, if like, if that's your... If you've learned that way, I don't... Like I, I think it would be like an ultimate challenge to to learn without that. 

[01:57:23] Eldar: Oh. 

[01:57:24] Mike: Well, 

[01:57:24] Toliy: I think 

[01:57:26] Eldar: that's the goal. I, I think it's, uh- The real- I mean, I think that's the, I think that's the, that's the ultimate goal.

[01:57:28] Toliy: Yeah. I, yeah, I think it's very difficult- Yeah ... to actually- 

[01:57:31] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:57:32] Toliy: like- 

[01:57:33] Mike: Well, it's definitely- 

[01:57:33] Toliy: Yeah, 'cause we're, we're talking about- Definitely not doing that ... we're we're talking about choice- 

[01:57:37] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:57:38] Toliy: versus no choice, right? And when you have no choice- 

[01:57:45] Eldar: Yeah, he needed 

[01:57:46] Mike: to be 

[01:57:46] Eldar: forced 

[01:57:47] Toliy: Yeah. Yes. And, and that's the thing is that I- He said, "I 

[01:57:49] Mike: only do when my shit is in the fire."

[01:57:51] Toliy: Yeah. I, I don't know- This is- I don't know ultimately- ... possibly true ... if you reflect on yourself, I don't know Look here's the question here. Can you ever be happy or truly proud of, for example, of yourself if you didn't m- if you didn't have a choice? 

[01:58:08] Mike: What does that mean? 

[01:58:09] Toliy: Mm. 

[01:58:09] Mike: What, um- I, I think, I think, 

[01:58:10] Toliy: I- Well, because discipline removes choice.

[01:58:13] So if I'm like- Oh ... "Hey, hey, Mike," like I don't know. Let's just say you were not- I understood ... you were, like, afraid to go on dates or like that. And then we're like, "Hey, me and Elora are never talking to you again- Mm ... unless you right now go." Mm. And then you went and, and you did it. I don't know if you could be proud of yourself for that, right?

[01:58:29] Ver- versus going through, like, the battle f- like fighting yourself- Yeah ... going, do- doing particular things, and then making the choice, and actually op- operating- You have to- ... out of choice 

[01:58:39] Eldar: will always feel- You have 

[01:58:40] Mike: to understand that to, to then... 

[01:58:42] Eldar: Yeah, like you, I told you about this difference, right? Where, like, when I push you into rock climbing and you could do better- 

[01:58:48] That's my push. Yes. Yeah, I know. That's your doing. That's not, that's not Mike. 

[01:58:52] I know. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. 

[01:58:53] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:58:54] Eldar: Even though it's in you- Mm-hmm ... but you not tapping in. Yeah. Yeah. It was the same thing if I was afraid to, like, shoot the 

[01:58:59] Toliy: shots in the game and 

[01:59:00] Eldar: we would play- 

[01:59:01] Mike: Yeah. 

[01:59:01] Eldar: Yeah ... and then Elora would force 

[01:59:02] Mike: me.

[01:59:02] No, I can't use that example anymore. That's it. No more. 

[01:59:03] Eldar: Hey, come on. No, okay, that's a good one. That's a good one, man. Yeah. No, no. Give me one. No, no, no. Yeah, basketball, yeah. Basketball's a bad- basketball example is a bad one. All right, 

[01:59:09] Mike: fine. Yeah, you're embarrassing us, man. 

[01:59:10] Eldar: It's fine. Yeah. 

[01:59:11] Toliy: It's fine. Maybe not that, whatever.

[01:59:13] I was dominating last week with that. 

[01:59:14] Eldar: I was dominating. You know? Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:59:18] Mike: Yeah. I know. And I know- Where it's like- ... and I consciously know that ... 

[01:59:21] Toliy: you did that, right? And you can ride it for just so long. But you even said that yourself. But then I'm not- Do you remember Mike was even saying himself- Yes

[01:59:28] "Hey, I actually I know that I'm doing this because, like, you're pushing me." Yes. Yeah. "And you know this." This is what he's saying. He's saying that- And you cannot feel that same level of pride- Yeah ... than if you did it on your own. That it's, that it's not you. That's what I'm saying. I know. It's not you.

[01:59:39] Mike: Well, that's why sometimes I climb my own to push myself. 

[01:59:42] Toliy: Yeah. To 

[01:59:43] Mike: have 

[01:59:43] Toliy: that variable within you, yes. That's what I'm saying is that, like- Yeah ... I don't know if you can truly be proud of yourself and truly be happy- 

[01:59:48] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:59:49] Toliy: if you didn't operate- Yeah ... and you didn't do it out of choice. 

[01:59:52] Eldar: Yeah. 

[01:59:52] Toliy: Because there, there's a lot of trials and- That's a, that's an interesting question

[01:59:54] tribulations in that, and a lot of values in that- 

[01:59:57] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[01:59:58] Toliy: than if you put discipline on it, there's force. 

[02:00:02] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:00:02] Toliy: Well, you were forced. 

[02:00:04] Eldar: Okay? You had no choice. 

[02:00:05] Toliy: You had no choice. 

[02:00:06] But if you do have choice, and you're able to break through and do it, that to me is, like, a next level forever happiness.

[02:00:14] Eldar: I agree with that. Yeah. I agree with that. 

[02:00:19] Toliy: Yeah. 

[02:00:21] Eldar: What, what you're, what you're essentially saying is you have to find a way to do the right thing when no one's looking forever. 

[02:00:28] Toliy: But that's the thing is that, the the thing in that quote is that when it comes to, like, yourself, there, there, there's someone always looking and that you will never forget- 

[02:00:38] Eldar: Yes

[02:00:39] Toliy: that, that thing. 

[02:00:40] Eldar: Yeah. But that's why you viol- Right? The, the number one person you only violate is yourself when you cheat yourself. 

[02:00:44] Toliy: Exactly. 

[02:00:45] Eldar: No one else. So if 

[02:00:45] Toliy: it's like, hey, when Kat's around, you don't kill animals, but when you're alone, you kill animals- 

[02:00:49] Eldar: Yeah, yeah ... 

[02:00:50] Toliy: you, there's no way you could feel good internally.

[02:00:52] Eldar: You're a fraud. 

[02:00:52] Toliy: You're a fraud. 

[02:00:53] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:00:54] Toliy: Right? 

[02:00:54] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:00:54] Toliy: So- 

[02:00:55] Eldar: Yeah ... 

[02:00:55] Toliy: yeah and you won't be able to forget that. 

[02:00:59] Uh, obviously you can't like hide from that. It's 

[02:01:01] Eldar: gonna always re- it's gonna always- You know? 

[02:01:02] Toliy: So- ... 

[02:01:03] Eldar: keep gonna be carrying that, yeah ... 

[02:01:04] Toliy: Yeah. I just feel like that, that this, that the, uh, concept of that kind of discipline, it doesn't sit well because of that, because it removes choice, and I think it ultimately removes credit, and I think ultimately, I don't think that you can enjoy, en- enjoy whatever that you accomplish in the same w- in the same way.

[02:01:24] Eldar: Well, so then you're saying that's not real success. 

[02:01:26] Toliy: No. 

[02:01:28] Eldar: What is it? What would you call that? 

[02:01:31] Toliy: What? 

[02:01:32] Eldar: If it's not success, what would you call that? 

[02:01:35] Toliy: I would call that, um, you know, when people- Would you 

[02:01:38] Eldar: call that a season? 

[02:01:39] Toliy: Damn. No, I, I was gonna, gonna say what's that word when people say, um... Oh when they question, like, i- is this a simulation?

[02:01:49] When you a- when you apply force, you create simulation. 

[02:01:55] Eldar: Oh, wow. For yourself. 

[02:01:56] Toliy: You create a simulation, right? 

[02:01:58] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:01:58] Toliy: You create a, uh, like a pre, uh- Predetermined ... predetermined outcome 

[02:02:07] Eldar: Wow, and you write out a certain destiny for the moment- 

[02:02:12] Toliy: Yeah ... 

[02:02:13] Eldar: for however long you need- 

[02:02:14] Toliy: Through, through 

[02:02:14] Eldar: force

[02:02:15] through force. 

[02:02:15] Toliy: Yeah. 

[02:02:17] Eldar: Versus, versus leaving yourself in the in the area of freedom of to choose. 

[02:02:23] Toliy: Yeah. I would say like probably the, like the discipline people would probably say that like they're actually choosing to do this or choo- Yeah ... like, there, there, there's, there, there's probably an argument that'll be made against it.

[02:02:35] But yeah, I know that like when like e- like even if I did something, even if I accomplished something, if it was out of force or discipline like- Uh-huh ... No, I don't feel good from it. Uh-huh. Like, I just don't. 

[02:02:48] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:02:48] Toliy: Sure, I accomplished it. I don't know, like- 

[02:02:50] Eldar: Yeah, 

[02:02:50] Toliy: for the moment ... cleaned my yard or some shit, right?

[02:02:52] Eldar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[02:02:52] Toliy: You know? But- Yeah ... do I feel good about that? No. '

[02:02:55] Eldar: Cause you don't believe it. 

[02:02:56] Toliy: I don't believe it. You don't believe it. At, at, in that moment. 

[02:02:59] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:02:59] Toliy: But when you choose to do something and you actually did it 

[02:03:02] Eldar: And it, it- It's part of your character ... 

[02:03:04] Toliy: yeah, it's completely different. 

[02:03:06] Eldar: Yeah.

[02:03:06] It's completely different. I, I, I agree with you on that- You know? ... on that take, yeah. 

[02:03:09] Toliy: Yeah, it's completely different. Yeah, I just feel that like you you don't know when you're like And this goes, I think, for for many decisions in general, is that like you don't know what you're subscribing to and what you're doing on the backend yet that hasn't hit you 

[02:03:30] Eldar: Yeah.

[02:03:30] Why, is it because you're slow? 'Cause you're slow. Well, think about it. 

[02:03:37] Toliy: It's like... Yeah, it's 

[02:03:38] Eldar: like- Think, it's a delayed- Yeah, it- It's a delayed response. 

[02:03:40] Toliy: Well, it's a delayed response, but I don't think that you know that it's, it it's happening, right? It's like people who choose- 

[02:03:45] Eldar: Is it, is it because you're stupid?

[02:03:46] I 

[02:03:46] Toliy: don't know, money. Or no, if you, you, you- You are stupid ... just don't know any better. 

[02:03:50] Eldar: But that's because you're ignorant. 

[02:03:51] Toliy: Well, yeah to a certain degree, right? It's like people who, who choose- Yeah ... I don't know, like Tom Brady, right? 

[02:03:57] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:03:58] Toliy: Who chose playing a... He already played a crazy career.

[02:04:02] He already did so much. 

[02:04:04] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:04:04] Toliy: He just needed those extra few years when the wife was already like, "Yo," like- 

[02:04:07] Eldar: Yeah, enough. 

[02:04:08] Toliy: Yeah. He still took that, what a dirty rat. Took that over family. 

[02:04:13] Eldar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[02:04:16] Toliy: Think about that. Yeah. It's not like this was, like, year two out of 20 some- something. 

[02:04:20] Eldar: Yeah.

[02:04:21] Toliy: Played for over 20 years, and this happened? Like these so- so-called, I guess, like a- alleged frustrations and, like, bad stuff happening in the last couple of years. 

[02:04:31] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:04:32] Toliy: To play, what, an extra one year or two? 

[02:04:35] Eldar: Like, what the fuck is wrong with you? 

[02:04:37] Toliy: Over relationship with your kids, with your wife, keeping the family together.

[02:04:43] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:04:44] Toliy: So much that your wife was banging the jujitsu instructor. 

[02:04:48] Eldar: On the side. 

[02:04:49] Toliy: And now she has a, she has a kid with him. 

[02:04:51] Eldar: Sick. 

[02:04:51] Toliy: And she took his last name. 

[02:04:53] Eldar: That's great. She, she fell in love. 

[02:04:54] Toliy: She fell in love. 

[02:04:55] Eldar: With the right person. 

[02:04:56] Toliy: With the right person. 

[02:04:58] Eldar: Yeah. But 

[02:04:58] Toliy: now you have a, a 50-year-old who has to... Again, he has these flings with the young girls now.

[02:05:02] Eldar: He has to. 

[02:05:03] Toliy: Yeah, you have to now. 

[02:05:04] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:05:05] Wow. What a loser, right? 

[02:05:08] Toliy: A crazy loser. 

[02:05:10] Eldar: But everybody thinks he's successful. 

[02:05:12] Toliy: He's successful at- At 

[02:05:14] Eldar: what? ... 

[02:05:14] Toliy: at playing football, 

[02:05:16] Eldar: 100%. He can throw a ball. 

[02:05:17] Toliy: Yeah. 

[02:05:18] Eldar: Maybe a little bit now because he's old. Yeah. Not as, not as much. 

[02:05:21] Toliy: He, he could. 

[02:05:22] Eldar: He could. 

[02:05:23] Toliy: And that'll be what he'll be remembered as.

[02:05:26] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:05:27] Toliy: But there's also a bunch of young kids that look up to him- 

[02:05:30] Eldar: Yeah, that will commit the same mistake ... 

[02:05:32] Toliy: but they, they don't know what he actually did. 

[02:05:35] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:05:36] Toliy: You can admire someone for their skill in a particular thing, or maybe, like- Yeah ... you know, they, you like that thing, but that's where it has to s- stop.

[02:05:45] Eldar: Yeah. 

[02:05:45] Toliy: Because you don't know what they're trading for it.

[02:05:52] Eldar: What they selling out for 

[02:05:53] Toliy: Yeah 

[02:05:54] Eldar: Fuck. We started with the kids and we ended with adults, but we gave you the whole trajectory. You fuck this up early, this is what you get. 

[02:06:05] Toliy: Yeah. 

[02:06:06] Eldar: You get big fucking stupid ass kids. So if you're a parent out there, and we know a couple of parents now that are listening, holy fuck.

[02:06:17] Are you setting yourself up for failure? Are you setting your kids up for failure? And how much suffering are you setting your kids up for with your own stupidity, with your own ignorance, with your own attachments, with your own desires? And how bad can it get? So think about that. 

[02:06:40] Mike: Yeah. 

[02:06:41] Eldar: Mike, what are your final thoughts on this? 

[02:06:43] Mike: No final thoughts. 

[02:06:44] Eldar: No final thoughts? I think 

[02:06:45] Mike: we said it. 

[02:06:46] Eldar: Totally. What are your final thoughts? We started with kids, we ended with adults. We started with little babies- Yeah ... one-year-old babies, and we ended with a 50-year-old baby by the name of Tom Brady.

[02:06:57] Toliy: Yeah. Yeah, no, I just feel that, like... Yeah, I don't even know. Uh, I, I was just gonna say it's, like, important to, like, to, um, to stay humble- Give one... 

[02:07:08] Mike: Give, like, a good example and 

[02:07:09] Toliy: just pass ... to, like stay humble and to, uh, put things into perspective, and to- 

[02:07:15] Mike: Yeah ... 

[02:07:16] Toliy: um, know that, like, hey, the next challenge is always around the corner.

[02:07:21] There's no way around that, so

[02:07:28] I don't know if the made it mindset is like a, a productive one 

[02:07:32] Eldar: for- 

[02:07:33] Toliy: Yeah ... for 

[02:07:34] For anybody. You know? I think it's, it's dangerous. 

[02:07:38] Eldar: Yeah.

[02:07:42] If you don't have kids and you're listening to this podcast, hopefully we s- you've agreed with us that having kids, raising kids is a serious task. It's not something to joke around on, about. 

[02:07:56] Toliy: No. 

[02:07:58] Eldar: There's so much baked into it for everyone involved, right? So take it seriously. Have the right conversations.

[02:08:09] Ask many more questions. Don't just set aside your fears or your doubts about certain things when it comes to kids, because the repercussions are serious on so many different levels, thank you for listening. This was great, as always